Author Topic: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)  (Read 136751 times)

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2008, 11:54:46 pm »
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #91 on: November 25, 2008, 12:02:35 am »
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.

If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.

FaustWolf

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #92 on: November 25, 2008, 12:11:12 am »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
This is still all possible if the Chrono team's visit to those places is seen as not happening, like a simple glimpse into what's going on with the Dream Devourer or other stuff that wouldn't happen on the normal quest. It definitely shouldn't happen, considering Lavos has to be defeated for the Dream Devourer to begin forming.

That might resolve the Time Bastard problem with Eclipse Magus being "Future" Magus. Hmm, we're dealing with if/then logic that could produce wildly different conclusions regarding Eclipse Magus' origin.

How long did it take Kato to do an interview after Chrono Cross' Japanese release? We're in dire need of whatever beans he might spill this time.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #93 on: November 25, 2008, 12:28:50 am »
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.

If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.

Why not? It makes sense, no?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #94 on: November 25, 2008, 12:40:13 am »
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.

If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.

Why not? It makes sense, no?

Maybe, but that doesn't change my opinion of that. There are still many posibilities about what is his fate after that.

Eske

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2008, 02:30:13 am »
Not really sure, just tossing it out there 'cause I like mixing the time travel and dimension travel concepts between
the games =)   

I'm assuming that the concept behind "you can fight the DD in old saves rather than New Game +" represents an alternate world.  You, as the player, defeat Lavos by some means initially but are then given the chance to go back and make a different choice.

1. Dimension A: Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos
2. Dimension A: Magus goes out to find Schala
3. Dimension B: Chrono and Co. stumble upon dimensional distortions instead of fighting Lavos
4. Dimensional Distortions: Dimension B Chrono Team learns of Dalton's plans, defeat some clones and enter  Time's Eclipse
5. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team meets Dimension A Magus, who references the battle with Lavos
6. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team defeat the Dream Devourer but are sent back to their own time. Magus has his memories erased and is sent somewhere.
7. Dimension A: Dalton invades Guardia, Chrono Team A is blindsided because only Team B was informed.
   And life goes on...

Kamiyu Bidan

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2008, 08:03:26 am »
good day to all the hardcore chrono fans it's been a long wait, but there seems to be hope for a CT 2 because of the new ending, or a Chrono Cross port with extra content, as for Mr. Faustwolf's first 2 questions:

Question 1: Is this ending canonical? and Question 2: There are two Maguses?

a.) i think it is canonical if the event happened before fighting the True Lavos in 1999 AD, and with Crono and company's memories of that event are erased by Schala (we have no idea what happened with them they just got teleported away by Schala - to the End of Time with their memories erased maybe?), if you bring Magus with you, he will have a ! reaction (Magus: !) upon seeing himself so it's feasible the Schala did erase the memories of the people present because if Party Magus saw Future Magus and Dream Devourer he and Crono (and company) would have an idea where to find Schala and find a way to help her (they have a Time Machine right?) hence the need to erase their memories (Schala i think is capable of this and she is still sane unlike the CC Time Devourer)

ok i know some people will counter with the Dream Devourer cannot be formed without first defeating Lavos argument so i'll quote:

Voice (Magus): Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.

Magus clearly states that Crono and the gang including him defeated Lavos and this is the future without Lavos so this is the same Magus in your party albeit stronger and he has apparently a way to go to the Time Eclipse (aka Darkness Beyond Time confirmed by Mr. Shinja).

Magus: Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, i do not know.

Magus confirms that the Crono Team in front of him could have come from a dimension where Lavos has not been beaten.

Magus: There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.

this statement suggests that there are parallel worlds (ie Chrono Cross) even before Schala splitted the world to Home and Another World or maybe it is already 1010 AD onwards here in this Dimension and the world could have been split because of Serge, but i think this theory of mine still has a lot of holes so it's a big maybe.

Magus: A new foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse, it feasts upon thoughts, dreams, and memories.

Still waiting for confirmation if the Dream and Time Devourer are one and the same, name localization changed perhaps?


@radicalblues: we have similar theories in the memory wiping event


b.) or this ending happened with just Magus and the Dream Devourer, this is also feasible because Magus could have powered up or Schala could still teleport him away because she is still sane afterall. i forgot his/her name but i've read someone had the same sentiment as my b.) statement


i have some questions of my own...

we need to remember that Time's Eclipse or DBT can only be accessed after finishing the Dimensional Vortex, question is why? in Chrono Cross you need the Time Egg, here after somehow assimilating the Crono, Marle and Lucca shades you had access to DBT, and what powers did the shades really grant Crono, Marle and Lucca plot wise? Why didn't Ayla, Frog, Robo or Magus fought their Shades? and the Lost Sanctum surely has some significance because Kato supervised it (eventhough it really didn't affect CT after all but maybe just maybe..... sequel....) and Dalton and the Rise of Porre scenario should be explained in full (the rise of porre article could really fit the bill but i want it to be official! sequel!)

and last statement:

if you really looked at Dalton and when you fight with him as Once-King Dalton he looks just like a joke character (the soundtrack in his boss battle was Jolly Ol' Spekkio BTW) so it's a little hard to take him seriously as the cost of the fall of guardia. But alas it's CANON  :)

and just like Eket i want to know the Fates of Crono, Marle and Lucca!

thanks for reading



ZeaLitY

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2008, 08:08:29 am »
Cross-posted from GameFAQs:

Wow, you guys are bitter. Here's the Compendium's latest:

* The new ending does not lead to a battle with Lavos, and is only enabled after defeating Lavos.
* The Dream Devourer, and later, the Time Devourer do not form until Lavos is defeated and begins merging with Schala.

These two points suggest that the new ending is a glimpse into what happens after Lavos's defeat, but that Crono's actual visit isn't canonical. Therefore, Magus finding the Dream Devourer and Dalton's instrumentation of the Rise of Porre are canon, but Crono's visits to learn about these events is not, since they would have to occur after Lavos is defeated (but don't). Two other things make this the likeliest scenario:

* Chrono series rules would absolutely forbid meeting a future version of yourself from YOUR perspective if YOU are the player. Time travelers are supposed to be on the cutting edge of their own personal histories. You can meet past versions of yourself, but not future versions from your perspective.
* If Future Magus really were from an alternate dimension, why would he be searching for THIS dimension's Schala? And this would also mean that the Darkness Beyond Time is connected to infinite dimensions (one DBT per infinity), which creates all sorts of probabilistic issues with the creation of a Time Devourer, which is capable of destroying the universe. Basically, as long as the probability of a Time Devourer forming is greater than 0 (and it is, apparently), then all existence would have been destroyed by now.

With these points considered, we can fully embrace the canon here. Saying that CT DS is retconning is a bit misleading; fans have been suspecting Dalton ever since they saw a long-haired person in the Fall of Guardia cut scene, and Masato Kato potentially devised that explanation for Guile as early as 1999 when the development team for Cross decided they couldn't put Magus in. We're just finally tasting some of Kato's machinations, which have been in store for a long time and should have appeared in the unproduced Chrono Break. Dalton's presence is already leading to more interesting Fall of Guaardia theories, such as the idea that Dalton could keep Crono, Marle, and Lucca occupied while the Porre army burns down Truce and Guardia Castle.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2008, 08:34:29 am »
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.

If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.

Why not? It makes sense, no?

Maybe, but that doesn't change my opinion of that. There are still many posibilities about what is his fate after that.

True, but we try to form theories.

Not really sure, just tossing it out there 'cause I like mixing the time travel and dimension travel concepts between
the games =)   

I'm assuming that the concept behind "you can fight the DD in old saves rather than New Game +" represents an alternate world.  You, as the player, defeat Lavos by some means initially but are then given the chance to go back and make a different choice.

1. Dimension A: Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos
2. Dimension A: Magus goes out to find Schala
3. Dimension B: Chrono and Co. stumble upon dimensional distortions instead of fighting Lavos
4. Dimensional Distortions: Dimension B Chrono Team learns of Dalton's plans, defeat some clones and enter  Time's Eclipse
5. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team meets Dimension A Magus, who references the battle with Lavos
6. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team defeat the Dream Devourer but are sent back to their own time. Magus has his memories erased and is sent somewhere.
7. Dimension A: Dalton invades Guardia, Chrono Team A is blindsided because only Team B was informed.
   And life goes on...

Supported. It seems to be the most reasonable of all the theories I've seen.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2008, 09:17:50 am »
Quote
* Chrono series rules would absolutely forbid meeting a future version of yourself from YOUR perspective if YOU are the player. Time travelers are supposed to be on the cutting edge of their own personal histories. You can meet past versions of yourself, but not future versions from your perspective.
* If Future Magus really were from an alternate dimension, why would he be searching for THIS dimension's Schala? And this would also mean that the Darkness Beyond Time is connected to infinite dimensions (one DBT per infinity), which creates all sorts of probabilistic issues with the creation of a Time Devourer, which is capable of destroying the universe. Basically, as long as the probability of a Time Devourer forming is greater than 0 (and it is, apparently), then all existence would have been destroyed by now.

This is exactly why I think the Magus at Time's Eclipse is just "Future Magus", not "Another Dimension Magus".

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2008, 09:27:09 am »
Quote
* Chrono series rules would absolutely forbid meeting a future version of yourself from YOUR perspective if YOU are the player. Time travelers are supposed to be on the cutting edge of their own personal histories. You can meet past versions of yourself, but not future versions from your perspective.
* If Future Magus really were from an alternate dimension, why would he be searching for THIS dimension's Schala? And this would also mean that the Darkness Beyond Time is connected to infinite dimensions (one DBT per infinity), which creates all sorts of probabilistic issues with the creation of a Time Devourer, which is capable of destroying the universe. Basically, as long as the probability of a Time Devourer forming is greater than 0 (and it is, apparently), then all existence would have been destroyed by now.

This is exactly why I think the Magus at Time's Eclipse is just "Future Magus", not "Another Dimension Magus".

Agreed. This complements the theory that Guile is an amnesiac Magus, as it explains the age issue.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2008, 09:28:17 am »
Wait, the age issue...

How do we explain that?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2008, 09:50:57 am »
Wait, the age issue...

How do we explain that?

Not sure, Guile (26) is younger than Magus (30+), and if it is accepted that they are the same being then it creates a big problem.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2008, 10:21:09 am »
Wait, the age issue...

How do we explain that?

First, I'll tell those who don't know what the age issue is. (I doubt there's anyone who doesn't but it's best to err on the side of caution)

Simply put, the age issue is used by /b/tards (most appropriate name for these people that I can think of) that say that Guile is too old to be Magus. IMO, the Dream Devourer events are an attempt to connect Magus and Guile. As was the case with everyone else, I initially mistook Guile for Magus. And then I was told he wasn't. Then I discovered that he was supposed to be Magus but was altered due to his story being too complex to work into CC's already complex story. And now they have done the Dream Devourer stuff in CTDS, providing an explanation for why Guile and Magus are so different, that being that Magus encountered the Dream Devourer, and lost the resulting battle. Schala then sent him to the Present, where he awoke with no memory of his life. He would then start over as Guile, the enigmatic magician that teamed up with Serge to raid Viper Manor.

Wait, the age issue...

How do we explain that?

Not sure, Guile (26) is younger than Magus (30+), and if it is accepted that they are the same being then it creates a big problem.

Simple. SE hadn't decided to incorporate Guile into being an amnesiac Magus when they gave Guile his age.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2008, 10:27:18 am »
Right, something that making Guile older can't solve.