Magus: Hmph. If this is to be the way of things,
then let me abandon all that was and fade away as well.
Should a part of me even then remain,
then perhaps that will be the birth of something
new -- something with greater meaning than all this.
As the palace collapsed aroundWhat we're seeing is likely the early stage: Schala still has some consciousness and the beast itself isn't in complete control. My theory is that since this is such an early stage in the evolution of this creature, Schala may have some control over it and perhaps this gave Schala the ability to erase memories.
her, Princess Schala was sucked
into a dimensional vortex along
with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
Schala and Lavos became unified
into one even more powerful
entity that would evolve into
the Devourer of Time.
Filled with the hatred and
sadness of Lavos, half of
Schala's mind became set on
destroying all of existence.
Yet at the same time, the
other half of her mind
desired to save the universe
and to be rescued herself.
Voice: Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.
Magus: Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, I do not know.Does this Magus even know Crono and co? I can't tell.
There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.
As I understand it, Chrono & crew defeat Lavos, then Dream Devourer, then 5 years later, anno 1005 AD Dalton attacks with a massive army and destroys Guardia. Chrono and Marle either die or escape. Lucca had an orphanga with several children around that time but it was destroyed by Lynx, not by Dalton. It's impossible to say when that happened.
As for Robo, he worked with Belthasar on Project Kid and served as the Prometheus circuit in the FATE master computer.
Ayla and Glenn... No idea what could have happened to them. They probably lived out their own timelines and eventually died of age.
As I understand it, Chrono & crew defeat Lavos, then Dream Devourer, then 5 years later, anno 1005 AD Dalton attacks with a massive army and destroys Guardia. Chrono and Marle either die or escape. Lucca had an orphanga with several children around that time but it was destroyed by Lynx, not by Dalton. It's impossible to say when that happened.
As for Robo, he worked with Belthasar on Project Kid and served as the Prometheus circuit in the FATE master computer.
Ayla and Glenn... No idea what could have happened to them. They probably lived out their own timelines and eventually died of age.
And this just completely does not make sense anymore. Crono, Marle and Lucca know what Dalton is planning now. It would be foolish to just brush it aside, sure they bested him in combat like 3 times. But that also means he returned twice despite those odds. Doesn't sit right with me, that Crono, Marle and Lucca completely ignore it when they get back to 1000AD.
I've put some thought into that. You fight Dalton in 1000AD's new dimensional thing. I haven't read anywhere that Dalton can be encountered in the other timezones. Lavos is defeated and the timegates dissapear, right? Sure there's the timedevourer now, but CC didn't have timegates either. The timegates are gone. Dalton has to be in 1000AD and starts building the Porre army at that time. Probably with Elements and advanced technology. I just can't understand why Crono and Co would ignore Dalton now.
They don't need to beat the entire Porre army. They just need to defeat Dalton before he fulfills his plan. In 600AD they didn't fight Magus' entire army, they went covert on his ass and snuck in. DarkSerge, I know you absolutely love Dalton and his involvement with Guardia. Happy for you it's now part of Canon, but it raises more questions than it actually answers. Which is probably what Kato wants... but he really took the easy way out with this new material. Magus gets amnesia. Come on even i can suck something more interesting out of my thumb.
Very sneaky of them to include lines that let the fans imagine their own fantasy timeline where Kato didn't control it. NINJA BATMAN FOREVER, AMNESIAC FOP NEVER! Er, uh... that refers to Magil and Guile, respectively.
As for the Dalton thing, I'm just pissed off I was RIGHT. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/maggiekarp/maggiekarp2/daltondidit.png) He's even hard to take seriously in the video, for crying out loud!
Kato didn't even know Guile was Magus until sometime after Chrono Cross
I cant take any analysis that says Magus is Guile seriously.
Clearly Guile is reminiscent of Magus, but no more than in the way the Glenn is of Frog, and Leah is of Ayla. There is NO evidence that they are the same person. The fact that Schala does nothing to acknowledge Guile when the Time Devourer is defeated proves it, at least for me. Also, clearly Magus is who she is saying she will search for at the end of Cross. She knows where Serge is, why would she have to search for him?QuoteKato didn't even know Guile was Magus until sometime after Chrono Cross
what do you mean he didnt know? he knows exactly what is going on. He has never said that Guile is Magus, all he has said is that Magus was originally going to be in the game, and that he was replaced by Guile because Kato didnt want to further complicate the story.
It makes perfect sense for her to go search the man that saved her, instead of the guy that was obsessed with revenge and never really seemed to care about her all that much.She certainly seems to understand Magus' care for her when she speaks to him at the end of CTDS.
(Secretly suspects art_garfunkel is actually Masato Kato in disguise).
Sorry, I'm just paranoid. :D
I've actually gone so far as to check the Compendium member list for users with the names "Masato" and "Kato," but there were none.
It makes perfect sense for her to go search the man that saved her, instead of the guy that was obsessed with revenge and never really seemed to care about her all that much.She certainly seems to understand Magus' care for her when she speaks to him at the end of CTDS.(Secretly suspects art_garfunkel is actually Masato Kato in disguise).
Sorry, I'm just paranoid. :D
I've actually gone so far as to check the Compendium member list for users with the names "Masato" and "Kato," but there were none.
You think I would be caught that easily? :)
She didnt tell him to fuck off, she told him that he was not capable of saving her, and he would be best off not trying.It makes perfect sense for her to go search the man that saved her, instead of the guy that was obsessed with revenge and never really seemed to care about her all that much.She certainly seems to understand Magus' care for her when she speaks to him at the end of CTDS.(Secretly suspects art_garfunkel is actually Masato Kato in disguise).
Sorry, I'm just paranoid. :D
I've actually gone so far as to check the Compendium member list for users with the names "Masato" and "Kato," but there were none.
You think I would be caught that easily? :)
Yeah and she also makes it really clear to him he should give up on her and move on with his life. I see no reason for her to go search for someone she basically told to f*ck off.
She didnt tell him to fuck off, she told him that he was not capable of saving her, and he would be best off not trying.It makes perfect sense for her to go search the man that saved her, instead of the guy that was obsessed with revenge and never really seemed to care about her all that much.She certainly seems to understand Magus' care for her when she speaks to him at the end of CTDS.(Secretly suspects art_garfunkel is actually Masato Kato in disguise).
Sorry, I'm just paranoid. :D
I've actually gone so far as to check the Compendium member list for users with the names "Masato" and "Kato," but there were none.
You think I would be caught that easily? :)
Yeah and she also makes it really clear to him he should give up on her and move on with his life. I see no reason for her to go search for someone she basically told to f*ck off.
I do agree that these details are too vague to say that she was definitely referring to Janus at the end of Cross, but I think it fits the words and facts nicely.
I'd like this better if, instead of going emo and erasing his memories, Magus decided he'd find a way to break her free, discovers her identity as Kid, and then they go off having merry adventures as thieves while he tries to get her memory back. Then they meet the musician Serge, and although Magus doesn't realize it yet, Lavos is much like the Mandora Monster in that the only way to break one free is with... LOOOOOOOOOOOVE~!
Also you may put that comic in Chrono Comix, of course.
Dalton is just too beautiful in the last panel. I'm going to add him to the avatars somehow. I've...
Just become a DIEHARD FAN OF DALTON
Edit: Wait, their death isn't totally official :( I've actually heard a great new theory that Dalton simply kept them busy long enough for Porre troops to basically burn Guardia Castle and Truce to the ground. Then perhaps he ran away snickering.
Dalton is just too beautiful in the last panel. I'm going to add him to the avatars somehow. I've...
Just become a DIEHARD FAN OF DALTON
Edit: Wait, their death isn't totally official :( I've actually heard a great new theory that Dalton simply kept them busy long enough for Porre troops to basically burn Guardia Castle and Truce to the ground. Then perhaps he ran away snickering.
Edit: Wait, their death isn't totally official :( I've actually heard a great new theory that Dalton simply kept them busy long enough for Porre troops to basically burn Guardia Castle and Truce to the ground. Then perhaps he ran away snickering.
MAGGIEKARP SHOULD DRAW THIS
The "Future" Magus says he doesn't know if Crono's party is from the same dimension as his. If he shows up and says the same thing in that sequence if you killed Magus earlier at North Cape, I think this would suggest that "Future" Magus is from a different dimension rather than the main one. Perhaps what Masato Kato wanted to show is that Guile is an incarnation of Magus, but not the Magus from your party.Brilliant point, this needs to be examined forthwith. Personally, I think this is Magus from a completely different timeline, but I haven't played through, so fuck if I know.
My theory is that the ocean palace events happened the prophet got his ass kicked by lavos again schala got sucked up but the prophet kept fighting eventually getting to the new ending stuff we see in CT:DS. It explains his new persona cause we don't know how long it's been.
Can someone explain why they have to be sent to when Guardia is destroyed? That doesn't happen for another five years.
we could be him and any other zealian that helped him in his battle.
And then what? Either they were sent to 1005 AD and were too late, or they were sent to 1000 AD and DID wait 5 years for Dalton to show up. The point is either way, they weren't strong enough to take Dalton and his army.Its impossible for them to be sent to after the Fall of Guardia. The final FMV (Chrono and Marle's marriage) is still canon.
jsondag2: And you don't think Lavos would've killed Magus if he remained there alone? How would he have escaped?
Prophet MagusSo Magus in his full cloak automatically equals the prophet?
I've also been thinking some more on why Magus appears as the Prophet. He is not the one from your party. The one from your party goes back to 12000BC to search for Schala, but by some weird fluke he appears before the Prophet invades zeal kingdom. He tells the prophet what will transpire.
When Lavos is summoned in the ocean palace. The prophet instead of actually attacking Lavos simply waits. Crono and Co appear(and perhaps Magus). Schala attempts to save them, and succeeds. Whatever happens with Schala at this point(i always assumed she was sucked into the dimensional warp Lavos created, also sucks up the Prophet). The other Magus simply waits on his mountain where the CT team runs into him and rejoins them.
Fast forward to the point where Crono and Co go through the new portal, and meet the prophet.
My theories are probably not as good as some of the theories i've read here though.
Why else would Kato put so much emphasis on the frigging cloak, and make him appear as the prophet? And since when has CT/CC been about logic O.o;Maybe it's about making you wonder who this is, instead of just having another Magus running around?
Dalton, and the Fall
Meh... Dalton should have just said something along the lines: I'll come back to haunt you when you least expect it. This referring to the fall of guardia. He basically blurts out his entire plan in front of them, and that raises more questions than it actually answers(You don't have to attempt to answer them).
Did Crono and Co simply choose to ignore this?
Did schala wipe their memory of the event?
Did schala sent them back when it had already occurred?
How did Dalton even become this powerfull? Face it the guy was a pansy
How did Dalton deal with Crono and Marle? I don't believe in killing major characters offscreen. It doesn't do them justice and is simply the cheapest way out.
What became of Dalton after the fall?
In any case i refuse to believe that Crono and Marle wouldn't do anything about it. The Fall of Guardia probably happened like planned. Dalton steals the masamune and flees to denadoro mountains with at leastCrono in pursuit. I think the final battle between Crono and Dalton happened there. Dalton is most likely defeated/killed.
I mean Porre invades El Nido at some point. If Dalton were still around he'd be there, or at least some mention of him would be made. There are still vague references about Crono and Marle around to support their lives after the Fall, and there basically are none concerning Dalton.
I think the ones who fight the DD are past versions of them, who were surprised to find the Temporal Vortexes and the portal to Time's Eclipse and decided to check them out. Those areas open after the defeat of Lavos, so why not a past version of them (who can, unlike the current ones, who defeated Lavos and went their separate ways) traveled to those places?Pardon me if I do say that this makes no sense.
I think the ones who fight the DD are past versions of them, who were surprised to find the Temporal Vortexes and the portal to Time's Eclipse and decided to check them out. Those areas open after the defeat of Lavos, so why not a past version of them (who can, unlike the current ones, who defeated Lavos and went their separate ways) traveled to those places?Pardon me if I do say that this makes no sense.
I prefer to see it as when a change is made to an era, the characters will only see those changes in subsequent visits. It makes things (thankfully) much less confusing. For example, there is the normal flow of time, and there is the character's timeline.I think the ones who fight the DD are past versions of them, who were surprised to find the Temporal Vortexes and the portal to Time's Eclipse and decided to check them out. Those areas open after the defeat of Lavos, so why not a past version of them (who can, unlike the current ones, who defeated Lavos and went their separate ways) traveled to those places?Pardon me if I do say that this makes no sense.
Taken from a previous post of mine:
After all, even if they are in, for example, 600 A.D. fighting Retinite, before, while going for the Masamune, there wasn't any Sunken Desert, but after telling the woman in Zeal not to burn the seed, there now is, meaning all past versions who crossed 600 A.D. for various reasons (Looking for the Masamune, going to Magus's Castle, etc.), are now going to see the place. Eventually, they will get Time Bastarded, but still, they can do something that can make a further change to the time line to the ones already done (thankfully they don't, or else more troubles could arrise to keep track of the continuity).
I prefer to see it as when a change is made to an era, the characters will only see those changes in subsequent visits. It makes things (thankfully) much less confusing. For example, there is the normal flow of time, and there is the character's timeline.I think the ones who fight the DD are past versions of them, who were surprised to find the Temporal Vortexes and the portal to Time's Eclipse and decided to check them out. Those areas open after the defeat of Lavos, so why not a past version of them (who can, unlike the current ones, who defeated Lavos and went their separate ways) traveled to those places?Pardon me if I do say that this makes no sense.
Taken from a previous post of mine:
After all, even if they are in, for example, 600 A.D. fighting Retinite, before, while going for the Masamune, there wasn't any Sunken Desert, but after telling the woman in Zeal not to burn the seed, there now is, meaning all past versions who crossed 600 A.D. for various reasons (Looking for the Masamune, going to Magus's Castle, etc.), are now going to see the place. Eventually, they will get Time Bastarded, but still, they can do something that can make a further change to the time line to the ones already done (thankfully they don't, or else more troubles could arrise to keep track of the continuity).
They travel through 1,000 AD at first, there is no forest. -> They then travel to 600 AD and planet the seed. -> They go back to 1000 AD and the forest is there. -> The history books say that a forest grew there starting in 600 AD.
But that does not mean that they forest was there in their past visits to 1000 AD.
I can't even enjoy the game anymore, there's nothing left of it but mayhem, despair and destruction.
I'm out of here, have a good one.
I'm not following your logic. There has to have been a point in 1000 AD where there was no forest, or else Chrono and team would never have planted the seed. If you go back in time and change something, the changes are evident only after you make the change. Just as the Chrono series explains, every time something in a timeline is changed in the past, it creates a "new dimension" proceeding from that point forward. The characters return to the new dimension where there is a forest, and the old dimension without a forest is relegated to the Darkness Beyond Time. I believe.I prefer to see it as when a change is made to an era, the characters will only see those changes in subsequent visits. It makes things (thankfully) much less confusing. For example, there is the normal flow of time, and there is the character's timeline.I think the ones who fight the DD are past versions of them, who were surprised to find the Temporal Vortexes and the portal to Time's Eclipse and decided to check them out. Those areas open after the defeat of Lavos, so why not a past version of them (who can, unlike the current ones, who defeated Lavos and went their separate ways) traveled to those places?Pardon me if I do say that this makes no sense.
Taken from a previous post of mine:
After all, even if they are in, for example, 600 A.D. fighting Retinite, before, while going for the Masamune, there wasn't any Sunken Desert, but after telling the woman in Zeal not to burn the seed, there now is, meaning all past versions who crossed 600 A.D. for various reasons (Looking for the Masamune, going to Magus's Castle, etc.), are now going to see the place. Eventually, they will get Time Bastarded, but still, they can do something that can make a further change to the time line to the ones already done (thankfully they don't, or else more troubles could arrise to keep track of the continuity).
They travel through 1,000 AD at first, there is no forest. -> They then travel to 600 AD and planet the seed. -> They go back to 1000 AD and the forest is there. -> The history books say that a forest grew there starting in 600 AD.
But that does not mean that they forest was there in their past visits to 1000 AD.
It will be, since the first time-line-chronological event was the planting of the seed. After that, the forest will grow. In their first travel through 1,000 A.D., the forest will be there. True, it eliminates the need to plant the seed now, but we have Time Bastard and Time Traveler Immunity to solve this. Then, when the ones who planted the seed return to 1,000 A.D., the forest will be there thanks to their change.
Yes, take heart young one, If Lucca was spared by Dalton and continued to live in Porre-occupied Guardia, then im sure Chrono and Marle could at the very least find a way out.QuoteI can't even enjoy the game anymore, there's nothing left of it but mayhem, despair and destruction.
I'm out of here, have a good one.
Take heart, dear Eket -- Future Magus informs us that there are as many realities as there are potentialities. Somewhere out there, there's a flourishing Guardia with King Crono and Queen Nadia at the helm, and all sorts of little ones running around the castle. Problem is, mayhem, despair and destruction make for interesting sequels. :D
QuoteI can't even enjoy the game anymore, there's nothing left of it but mayhem, despair and destruction.
I'm out of here, have a good one.
Take heart, dear Eket -- Future Magus informs us that there are as many realities as there are potentialities. Somewhere out there, there's a flourishing Guardia with King Crono and Queen Nadia at the helm, and all sorts of little ones running around the castle. Problem is, mayhem, despair and destruction make for interesting sequels. :D
the 1000AD vortex pits you against DALTON and clone Crono,
The name "Time's Eclipse" literally means...well, I'm going back to good ol' Webster for a definition of "eclipse."
1.
a. The partial or complete obscuring, relative to a designated observer, of one celestial body by another.
b. The period of time during which such an obscuration occurs.
2. A temporary or permanent dimming or cutting off of light.
3.
a. A fall into obscurity or disuse; a decline: "A composer . . . often goes into eclipse after his death and never regains popularity" Time.
b. A disgraceful or humiliating end; a downfall: Revelations of wrongdoing helped bring about the eclipse of the governor's career.
That probably muddles things further though. I'm not really sure how to proceed on this one.
But what say you all?
jsondag2: And you don't think Lavos would've killed Magus if he remained there alone? How would he have escaped?
So Magus in his full cloak automatically equals the prophet?
That's about as supportable as Magus = Guile. Which is to say, requires a ridiculous amount of jumping through logic hoops.
Sorry I was out for a day so these quotes are from awhile ago.Completely separate sheet or not, its still easier to use an existing sprite than to make a new design AND a new sprite. Not even all those Schala sprites are new.Quotejsondag2: And you don't think Lavos would've killed Magus if he remained there alone? How would he have escaped?
The same way Crono and company escaped....schala teleports him out to the last village.QuoteSo Magus in his full cloak automatically equals the prophet?
That's about as supportable as Magus = Guile. Which is to say, requires a ridiculous amount of jumping through logic hoops.
I dont understand what kind of logic holes were jumping through? I think that any other magus requires quite a bit more "jumping through logic holes". It's silly to simply ignore the prophet guise...It's really the only thing we have to go off of when deciding which magus it is. Kato went out of his way to choose to display magus in this manner if for no other reason than the programming difficulty. I'm 90% sure that the prophet isn't in Magus sprite sheet he's a completely seperate sprite. He has shown through schala that they are willing to add new sprites but he didn't. Instead he picked the incredibly recognizable sprite of the prophet. He explicity didn't say which magus this is but he has left a huge hint by choosing to portray him as the prophet.
--JP
I don't see why Prophet Magus would go to the Devourer fight, get his memory messed with, and then go back to 12000 BC and continue on like nothing happened. That makes no sense.
Magus comes back becomes prophet ==> Magus boots out Crono and company ==> (crono and company dont come back in this timeline) ==> Fights lavos. Everyone loses schala saves the prophet just like she saved crono and co. ==> Over time magus builds a group of people to challenge lavos ==> Defeats lavos ...Dream Devour appears ==> goes to portal ==> New DS ending
Alright, I don't know if this was said yet but.
I haven't played the new areas, only read about them...The Lost Sanctum is the Reptite place right? And these new areas are dimensional in nature and name?
One could say that for the relevant dimensions of Trigger and Cross, that these actions by Crono & crew saved the reptites/dragonians in the "Reptite Dimension" and saved the dragon tear for later use in Cross. For if they did not kill off the baddies, the baddies would have killed off the reptites/dragonians and either stole/used/destroyed the dragon tear, with the Cross never to be made...and the TD free to consume all.
And if one is to believe this theory, then it could be possible that, at least this dimensonial vortex was made with a purpose, to allow Cross to happen as it did. Who could have done this is unkown...Schala, a (the) Guru(s), the Entity, Lavos, etc.
Another thought: If these vortices were purposely opened by person/thing "X", for the purpose of saving person/place/dimension/timeline "Y" (and/or"X")...could person/thing "Z" have plucked a Crono, Marle and Lucca from other dimensions to try and prevent the player party from going through these areas? With the intent of these "clones" to perserve their own dimension, which would be ruined by the players actions? And the intent of person/thing "Z" of perserving itself.
Make any sense?
json, if we're going to base Eclipse Magus' origin on his Prophet's cloak, I think we should take that concept to its natural extreme -- that this is, in fact, somehow the Magus from the What the Prophet Seeks ending. Magus is never, ever, seen
with his Prophet's cloak outside of Zeal. He has no need for it unless he's in Queen Zeal's court. If this is the case, then one of the following would have to have occurred:
1. Over time Magus builds a group of people (in Zeal) to challenge Lavos (and needed his cloak to maintain the Prophet's charade)
2. Magus confronts Lavos and is somehow sucked directly into Time's Eclipse with his cloak still on.
3. Magus thought the cloak was cool and kept it on as he pursued post-fall of Zeal time traveling in an effort to destroy Lavos.
but evidence seems to suggest Magus lost as usual and Schala sends him to another time. Eventually he teams up with Crono and co, either still disguised as the prophet or not, and they all go to fight Lavos.
Quotebut evidence seems to suggest Magus lost as usual and Schala sends him to another time. Eventually he teams up with Crono and co, either still disguised as the prophet or not, and they all go to fight Lavos.
I agree with everything but that. I'm not sure theres any reason why schala would send him to another time. She only sent Crono and co. to last village she'd probably do the same to him.
--JP
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.
This is still all possible if the Chrono team's visit to those places is seen as not happening, like a simple glimpse into what's going on with the Dream Devourer or other stuff that wouldn't happen on the normal quest. It definitely shouldn't happen, considering Lavos has to be defeated for the Dream Devourer to begin forming.
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.
If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.
If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.
Why not? It makes sense, no?
I see the Dream Devourer as the perfect means of placing Magus in CC. He loses his memory and becomes Guile. The age issue is possibly retconned, or explained as he arrived long enough before CC to age into what Guile is.
If Cross gets the same treatment as Trigger, personally, I wouldn't want it that way.
Why not? It makes sense, no?
Maybe, but that doesn't change my opinion of that. There are still many posibilities about what is his fate after that.
Not really sure, just tossing it out there 'cause I like mixing the time travel and dimension travel concepts between
the games =)
I'm assuming that the concept behind "you can fight the DD in old saves rather than New Game +" represents an alternate world. You, as the player, defeat Lavos by some means initially but are then given the chance to go back and make a different choice.
1. Dimension A: Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos
2. Dimension A: Magus goes out to find Schala
3. Dimension B: Chrono and Co. stumble upon dimensional distortions instead of fighting Lavos
4. Dimensional Distortions: Dimension B Chrono Team learns of Dalton's plans, defeat some clones and enter Time's Eclipse
5. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team meets Dimension A Magus, who references the battle with Lavos
6. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team defeat the Dream Devourer but are sent back to their own time. Magus has his memories erased and is sent somewhere.
7. Dimension A: Dalton invades Guardia, Chrono Team A is blindsided because only Team B was informed.
And life goes on...
* Chrono series rules would absolutely forbid meeting a future version of yourself from YOUR perspective if YOU are the player. Time travelers are supposed to be on the cutting edge of their own personal histories. You can meet past versions of yourself, but not future versions from your perspective.
* If Future Magus really were from an alternate dimension, why would he be searching for THIS dimension's Schala? And this would also mean that the Darkness Beyond Time is connected to infinite dimensions (one DBT per infinity), which creates all sorts of probabilistic issues with the creation of a Time Devourer, which is capable of destroying the universe. Basically, as long as the probability of a Time Devourer forming is greater than 0 (and it is, apparently), then all existence would have been destroyed by now.
Quote* Chrono series rules would absolutely forbid meeting a future version of yourself from YOUR perspective if YOU are the player. Time travelers are supposed to be on the cutting edge of their own personal histories. You can meet past versions of yourself, but not future versions from your perspective.
* If Future Magus really were from an alternate dimension, why would he be searching for THIS dimension's Schala? And this would also mean that the Darkness Beyond Time is connected to infinite dimensions (one DBT per infinity), which creates all sorts of probabilistic issues with the creation of a Time Devourer, which is capable of destroying the universe. Basically, as long as the probability of a Time Devourer forming is greater than 0 (and it is, apparently), then all existence would have been destroyed by now.
This is exactly why I think the Magus at Time's Eclipse is just "Future Magus", not "Another Dimension Magus".
Wait, the age issue...
How do we explain that?
Wait, the age issue...
How do we explain that?
Wait, the age issue...
How do we explain that?
Not sure, Guile (26) is younger than Magus (30+), and if it is accepted that they are the same being then it creates a big problem.
Right, something that making Guile older can't solve.
Right, something that making Guile older can't solve.
Hey, they might port CC and in that it might make him maybe about 15 to 25 years older. It's all up to Square, really.
That makes me think. Maybe we're looking at it wrong. Has SE said anything concerning the amnesiac Magus yet?
Right, something that making Guile older can't solve.
Hey, they might port CC and in that it might make him maybe about 15 to 25 years older. It's all up to Square, really.
That makes me think. Maybe we're looking at it wrong. Has SE said anything concerning the amnesiac Magus yet?
As far as I know, not yet. Also, if they do port CC, they can still pull something different, like, having amnesiac Magus as a separate character other than Guile.
Personally, I would like it better that way.
* If Future Magus really were from an alternate dimension, why would he be searching for THIS dimension's Schala? And this would also mean that the Darkness Beyond Time is connected to infinite dimensions (one DBT per infinity), which creates all sorts of probabilistic issues with the creation of a Time Devourer, which is capable of destroying the universe. Basically, as long as the probability of a Time Devourer forming is greater than 0 (and it is, apparently), then all existence would have been destroyed by now.
12. Can we assume that Magus's wake-up to Schala is the moment Belthasar took advantage of when planning for Schala to be awake long enough to create Kid? (This means Crono's presence pre-Lavos is non-canonical)
Quote from: ZeaLitY12. Can we assume that Magus's wake-up to Schala is the moment Belthasar took advantage of when planning for Schala to be awake long enough to create Kid? (This means Crono's presence pre-Lavos is non-canonical)
Can anyone elaborate on what's in the parentheses here? In any case, it seems that Eclipse Magus may very well be an integral part of Project Kid -- I can easily imagine Schala creating Kid in the moments after she sends Eclipse Magus on his way, and maybe Belthasar realized that Janus was the only one who could possibly get through to her while she's connected to Lavos. There can be no Project Kid without Kid, so it makes sense. The only thing I'm not sure about is how Belthasar would have known that Schala would respond in this way during her brief moment of clarity, but then again he's an omniscient dude.
Given that Eclipse Magus knows a lot about the Dream Devourer's nature and about alternate dimensions in general, it seems he might be working directly with Belthasar. This is very, very cool. As for why Belthasar chose this Magus and not "the Magus we know" for the job, maybe it's because Eclipse Magus has adopted a more noble nature by virtue of whatever he experienced in the alternate dimension.
EDIT: Also, I'd like to emphasize that the Dream Devourer is described as having the ability to devour not only dreams, but memories. A slight hint that Crono & co. maybe had their memories wiped, and it at least allows for the possibility that Schala and not Eclipse Magus wiped his memories out.
Okay, so wait, when the party takes the bucket to Time's Eclipse, do they actually end up at 1999 post Lavos defeat and then follow Magus II into a gate which then takes them to TE? Or is it TE right from the start?
Ah, well I wasn't focused so much on the party as I was on Magus. I can't believe some version of him found a way
to enter TE directly which I'm assuming is the DBT. Finding his way to the Day of Lavos (post battle) and finding an entryway to TE from there made more sense to me. oh well =(
So let's hope a Masato Kato interview is present in the Chrono Trigger - Perfect Bible!
I'll drink to that.
And back to Magus II: He says "we've defeated..." in the english version but does he say that in the japanese version or something more like "he was defeated...".
ドラゴンピアスThis should be the Japanese name for the Dragon Tear in CTDS.
Can anyone tell me if my text dump attempt is right? It looks about the same as in-game, but I'm not sure.I checked my copy of the game and yeah, this seems to be the Japanese equivalent. It means "Dragon Earring" :/QuoteドラゴンピアスThis should be the Japanese name for the Dragon Tear in CTDS.
Literally it says "doragon piasu" which is katakana English for 'dragon pierce', but a "pierce" in Japanese, for whatever reason, is an earring. One of the more mysterious Japanese loanwords...Maybe that's because you have to 'pierce' your ear to wear earings.
Heheh yeah that's true. Would be funny to see him with earrings. But yeah it's more for gameplay then anything else, there's loads more equipment that don't fit certain characters.Yeah, that's true.
i want to know what was the purpose of the Lost Sanctum, why was it opened when the Black Omen first appeared?
the only thing that was new for me is knowing that a Nu might really have eternal life (i thought the Nu's from various timelines where not the same, but this event showed that some of the nu's we encounter throughout the game can be one and the same, and this supports the all begins and ends with nu quote, nothing new i guess)
and i really want to know what was purpose of assimilating the Crono, Marle and Lucca shades, they did power up after getting them,
Could Nu possibly be the Entity? With all Nu being incarnations of the Planet's spirit (think Avatar) and them having some kind of hivemind?
Did you guys notice the difference in Magus's tone between the translations? It's like a completely different character...
And it's amazing how simple word choice made Magus's characterization seem so different--Magus appears to have a greater level of understanding in the translation Arc provided us.
And it's amazing how simple word choice made Magus's characterization seem so different--Magus appears to have a greater level of understanding in the translation Arc provided us.
Probably came with the time that passed after Lavos was defeated.
And it's amazing how simple word choice made Magus's characterization seem so different--Magus appears to have a greater level of understanding in the translation Arc provided us.
Probably came with the time that passed after Lavos was defeated.
More likely his reunion with his sister.
Also, it it just me or does Schala just being "attached" to Lavos seem a bit weird? I figured they'd at least explain it for those with no knowledge of Cross.
Ah, how did the folks in Medina Village call Magus in SFC/PS version?
Now they call him 'fiendlord', which is quite interesting, because his Japanese name '魔王' means EXACTLY 'fiendlord'.
Also I checked the Japanese dialogue of a certain NPC, he says '魔王樣' (maou sama), if you translate it back, it should probably be 'Lord Magus'. And in English script, he just says 'fiendlord', interesting...
Ah, how did the folks in Medina Village call Magus in SFC/PS version?
Now they call him 'fiendlord', which is quite interesting, because his Japanese name '魔王' means EXACTLY 'fiendlord'.
Also I checked the Japanese dialogue of a certain NPC, he says '魔王樣' (maou sama), if you translate it back, it should probably be 'Lord Magus'. And in English script, he just says 'fiendlord', interesting...
Mao/Maoh/Maou means "demon lord" or "dark king", so fiendlord is a pretty accurate title. With Mao being a title one could also assume his English name is also actually a title, Magus being the singular of Magi.
@ Dark Serge and Shadow D. Darkman,
I suppose that's true.
---
Also, if Chrono Cross is just the result of one of the endings (or rather multiple ones...), could we assume Radical Dreamers is that as well? If so, what ending would be the most logical to predate RD?
？？？「ここには、もうラヴォスはいない。
ここはすでにラヴォスが倒された
未来の時空だ。
俺たちがヤツを滅ぼした。
???: Lavos is no longer here.
This is a future timespace where
Lavos has already been defeated.
We destroyed him.
[I find it curious that this future(?) Magus refers to himself throughout this ending as 'ore'--
Magus in the rest of CT refers to himself as 'watashi' everywhere but a single scene.]
Ｍａｇｕｓ「もっとも、お前たちが
やってきた世界で
俺たちが手を組んでいたかどうかは
知らぬがな。
Magus: Although I don't know
whether or not I joined forces
with you, in the world you come from.
[He said this to me with Magus in my party, so I assume he says the same thing no matter what.]
...I think the Japanese version all but explicitly tells us that Eclipse Magus did indeed join up with Crono's party. The fact that he says "we" defeated Lavos -- in a language where you only bother using the plural when you're making a specific point -- and the line about "I don't know whether I joined up with you guys in your world" heavily implies "but I did join up with you in my world." To me this seems like the biggest oversight in the English adaptation -- the translator/adaptor got all caught up in making Magus sound all kewl and philosophical and deep as they consistently do throughout CTDS, and accidentally obscured this specific fact in the process.
Perhaps... but I have something somewhat tied into this with whatever relevance it may have still puzzles me...
Why is this Magus (Eclipse) in his prophet attire?
Magus is in his Prophet garb because they've been reusing sprites and music for all the new features and it's nice and generically mysterious. Don't they use Johnny's theme for when Dalton shows up? Does that mean Dalton's really a robot biker from the future?
...You put down those sequel storyboards RIGHT NOW, KATO!
Magus is in his Prophet garb because they've been reusing sprites and music for all the new features and it's nice and generically mysterious. Don't they use Johnny's theme for when Dalton shows up? Does that mean Dalton's really a robot biker from the future?
...You put down those sequel storyboards RIGHT NOW, KATO!
Magus is in his Prophet garb because they've been reusing sprites and music for all the new features and it's nice and generically mysterious. Don't they use Johnny's theme for when Dalton shows up? Does that mean Dalton's really a robot biker from the future?
...You put down those sequel storyboards RIGHT NOW, KATO!
At least it wasn't Burn! Bobonga or something. But seriously, Johnny's theme...? It's like cheap porno music.
Arc Impulse has reported this in response to the supposition that Eclipse Magus didn't travel with Crono & co, so everyone take notice:Quote from: Arc Impulse？？？「ここには、もうラヴォスはいない。
ここはすでにラヴォスが倒された
未来の時空だ。
俺たちがヤツを滅ぼした。
???: Lavos is no longer here.
This is a future timespace where
Lavos has already been defeated.
We destroyed him.
[I find it curious that this future(?) Magus refers to himself throughout this ending as 'ore'--
Magus in the rest of CT refers to himself as 'watashi' everywhere but a single scene.]
Ｍａｇｕｓ「もっとも、お前たちが
やってきた世界で
俺たちが手を組んでいたかどうかは
知らぬがな。
Magus: Although I don't know
whether or not I joined forces
with you, in the world you come from.
[He said this to me with Magus in my party, so I assume he says the same thing no matter what.]Quote from: Arc Impulse...I think the Japanese version all but explicitly tells us that Eclipse Magus did indeed join up with Crono's party. The fact that he says "we" defeated Lavos -- in a language where you only bother using the plural when you're making a specific point -- and the line about "I don't know whether I joined up with you guys in your world" heavily implies "but I did join up with you in my world." To me this seems like the biggest oversight in the English adaptation -- the translator/adaptor got all caught up in making Magus sound all kewl and philosophical and deep as they consistently do throughout CTDS, and accidentally obscured this specific fact in the process.
I was actually starting to really like the idea of Eclipse Magus coming from an unknown alternate dimension, so can the backers come up with some kind of theoretical rebuttal? :mrgreen:
1. Dimension A: Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos
2. Dimension A: Magus goes out to find Schala
3. Dimension B: Chrono and Co. stumble upon dimensional distortions instead of fighting Lavos
4. Dimensional Distortions: Dimension B Chrono Team learns of Dalton's plans, defeat some clones and enter Time's Eclipse
5. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team meets Dimension A Magus, who references the battle with Lavos
6. Time's Eclipse: Dimension B Chrono Team defeat the Dream Devourer but are sent back to their own time. Magus has his memories erased and is sent somewhere.
7. Dimension A: Dalton invades Guardia, Chrono Team A is blindsided because only Team B was informed.
And life goes on...
That depends on the answer to this question (I haven't played CC in years)
What is so special about the gate to the DBT in CC?
If my instincts are right and they usually...aren't - thats where Serge was killed/not killed right?
If thats the case (and I hope it is) pathways to the DBT appear where something that should not have happened, happened. Examples in this case are Serge living (blame Schala) and Lavos's defeat (blame Entity).
So I'm guessing (again) that the bucket takes Crono Team B to post 1999AD Lavos battle site for dimension A. The gate further back by Magus II marks Lavos's grave and the CT entrance to the DBT.
So:
1. New gate at EoT is just another dimensional vortex - sending them to dimension A (convenient)
2. Pathways to DBT appear at sites where time was changed by an external force.
maybe :)
Eclipse Magus notes that he has already defeated Lavos as well in his dimension, so the entrance to DBT appeared there probably too somehow
That depends on the answer to this question (I haven't played CC in years)
What is so special about the gate to the DBT in CC?
If my instincts are right and they usually...aren't - thats where Serge was killed/not killed right?
If thats the case (and I hope it is) pathways to the DBT appear where something that should not have happened, happened. Examples in this case are Serge living (blame Schala) and Lavos's defeat (blame Entity).
So I'm guessing (again) that the bucket takes Crono Team B to post 1999AD Lavos battle site for dimension A. The gate further back by Magus II marks Lavos's grave and the CT entrance to the DBT.
So:
1. New gate at EoT is just another dimensional vortex - sending them to dimension A (convenient)
2. Pathways to DBT appear at sites where time was changed by an external force.
maybe :)
Actually I think the CC DBT gate was made by Serge dying, as the Ideal Timeline has him alive. Why it's in Home World is anyone's guess.
Chrono Trigger - Perfect Bible FTW?
You know what, though, there are plenty of unintentional plot holes (ie - "designer oversight") in the Chrono series. To me, "Time Eclipse Magus" could just as easily be one of those unintentionals (as far as him still appearing despite killing him at the North Cape).
I'm still not comfortable with "Time Eclipse Magus" being from another dimension. It's just too "deux ex machina" and random, and it has NO relevance to the plot whatsoever. It just allows for too many "random intervals".
But that's just me.
？？？「ここには、もうラヴォスはいない。
ここはすでにラヴォスが倒された
未来の時空だ。
俺たちがヤツを滅ぼした。
???: Lavos is no longer here.
This is a future timespace where
Lavos has already been defeated.
We destroyed him.
[I find it curious that this future(?) Magus refers to himself throughout this ending as 'ore'--
Magus in the rest of CT refers to himself as 'watashi' everywhere but a single scene.]
Ｍａｇｕｓ「もっとも、お前たちが
やってきた世界で
俺たちが手を組んでいたかどうかは
知らぬがな。
Magus: Although I don't know
whether or not I joined forces
with you, in the world you come from.
[He said this to me with Magus in my party, so I assume he says the same thing no matter what.]
世界は、せんたくの数だけ存在する。
There are as many worlds out there as there are choices.
Ｍａｇｕｓ「この先で、新たな敵が
生まれようとしている。
この先に広がる、時の闇の底で。
Magus: Beyond [this Gate], a new
enemy is trying to come into being.
In the deepest depths of the Darkness
of Time beyond this point.
人の記憶を、夢を、想いを
喰らおうとしている...。
Magus is in his Prophet garb because they've been reusing sprites and music for all the new features and it's nice and generically mysterious. Don't they use Johnny's theme for when Dalton shows up? Does that mean Dalton's really a robot biker from the future?
...You put down those sequel storyboards RIGHT NOW, KATO!
Understood but that is the opposite of what I'm saying Sad
QuoteUnderstood but that is the opposite of what I'm saying Sad
I'm not saying I disagree with you, Eske. I'm disagreeing with others' opinions I've seen here in the forums. In fact, I pretty much am in agreement with you. I, like you, think "Time Eclipse Magus" is actually just "Future Magus", due to the player's role.
I was moreso just voicing my opinion. :D
I think that we also have to keep in mind is this:
Chrono Trigger is released. At the end we all had questions of: What happened to Schala? Did Magus ever finds her? What became of Crono and Crew after all is said and done? And more.
Debate, speculation, wishing for the next Chrono Trigger!
Chrono Cross is released. It answers some questions to the end of Chrono Trigger, but at the end of it all, even more questions arise. Too many to really list.
Debate, speculation, wishing for another Chrono Trigger!
Chrono Trigger is re-released. It answers some questions from CC, but at the end of it all, more questions arise.
Debate, speculation, wishing for another Chrono Trigger!
In the end, it boils down to, lather, rinse, repeat. We can speculate all that we want, and I must admit I love reading about it, but in the end it will be answered with the next game it seems.
Let's consider what we've seen thus far:
- Never would I have known or considered Dalton to be the one responsible for the rise of the Porre Army to attack Guardia. (There was speculation in the Compendium) That just came out of nowhere, but we didn't get this answered/confirmed until CT re-released. Which goes back that our questions will be answered one way or another it seems.
- Magus, is a wonderful character. His story is sad and tragic and we finally learn what happens to him in CT re-released. (It was so sad!) Now it makes us question the whole speculation of Magus = Guile and also, what exacley did happen? (I'll leave my thoughts on this for another time :) )
- Schala, I believe with each release, it seems that the story is about her. Her astral amulet causing the turn of the events that is Chrono Trigger. Queen Zeal, ordering and using her because of the sheer amount of power she had. The amount of sadness she kept inside vs. the amount of good she held in her heart splitting into two beings Harle/Kid speculation. Also what happened to her after Cross?
- New Speculation on the role of Marle, Chrono and Lucca. Were they the focal characters chosen by the planet to stop Lavos? Why were they the only ones that had clones? Why were they the ghosts that appeared to Serge?
It can go on and on! And we just love this game so much we can just talk about it all day . . . until bed time!
The Dead Sea is still kinda a mystery. When Kid saves Serge the dimensions split. Is this the only time when dimensions split? Was it a special event that caused dimensions to split? Or do dimensions split everytime somebody makes an important decision? Or do they split when you travel back in time and change something?
Who knows.
The Dead Sea is still kinda a mystery. When Kid saves Serge the dimensions split. Is this the only time when dimensions split? Was it a special event that caused dimensions to split? Or do dimensions split everytime somebody makes an important decision? Or do they split when you travel back in time and change something?
Who knows.
I always thought of it as each timeline is in its own dimension...all separate from each other, so when one changes the timeline, it is self contained to that dimension... but the split in Cross was one timeline that was split in twain but still self contained...for the most part anyway (looking at you Dinopolis). like a head of hair, each hair is in one follicle (i know multiples can sprout from one follicle but for simplicity sake...), and then there are hairs that are split, effectively becoming 2 hairs from one follicle. something like that anyway.
So, I've been one of those lurkers who've been reading through the compendium for years, but never actually commented on anything. It gives me great pleasure to finally join in the discussion since everyone here puts plenty of thought into each of their posts. It's a great thing to see.
So here's my question. I'm a bit confused about how time gates tie in with dimensional vortices. It was my understanding that if Chrono & Co alter the time line (no matter when they do so), the pre-alteration time line gets sent to the Dead Sea (or is it Sea of Eden--I always get them confused). If that's the case, how can different dimensions exist?
To me, different dimensions represent events that could have happened, but if alternate time lines are sucked into the Dead Sea, then how can these different potentialities ever come to fruition?
I know I'm probably overlooking something really obvious, but I'd love some help with this one.
...statement by Masato Kato that the Dead Sea is the ruined timeline Crono averted by killing Lavos, and a reflection of destruction that Serge causes.
So, I've been one of those lurkers who've been reading through the compendium for years, but never actually commented on anything. It gives me great pleasure to finally join in the discussion since everyone here puts plenty of thought into each of their posts. It's a great thing to see.
So here's my question. I'm a bit confused about how time gates tie in with dimensional vortices. It was my understanding that if Chrono & Co alter the time line (no matter when they do so), the pre-alteration time line gets sent to the Dead Sea (or is it Sea of Eden--I always get them confused). If that's the case, how can different dimensions exist?
To me, different dimensions represent events that could have happened, but if alternate time lines are sucked into the Dead Sea, then how can these different potentialities ever come to fruition?
I know I'm probably overlooking something really obvious, but I'd love some help with this one.Quote from: ZeaLitY...statement by Masato Kato that the Dead Sea is the ruined timeline Crono averted by killing Lavos, and a reflection of destruction that Serge causes.
Ok wait, what gets sent to the Dead Sea and what gets sent to the DBT. I need a refresher. If the above quote is true, then the Lavos who wasn't killed is inside the Dead Sea, with the rest of his timeline.
with the Chrono Trigger - Perfect Bible out, maybe the answer to the Is the new ending canonical?
I always thought of it as each timeline is in its own dimension...all separate from each other, so when one changes the timeline, it is self contained to that dimension... but the split in Cross was one timeline that was split in twain but still self contained...for the most part anyway (looking at you Dinopolis). like a head of hair, each hair is in one follicle (i know multiples can sprout from one follicle but for simplicity sake...), and then there are hairs that are split, effectively becoming 2 hairs from one follicle. something like that anyway.
So, I've been one of those lurkers who've been reading through the compendium for years, but never actually commented on anything. It gives me great pleasure to finally join in the discussion since everyone here puts plenty of thought into each of their posts. It's a great thing to see.
So here's my question. I'm a bit confused about how time gates tie in with dimensional vortices. It was my understanding that if Chrono & Co alter the time line (no matter when they do so), the pre-alteration time line gets sent to the Dead Sea (or is it Sea of Eden--I always get them confused). If that's the case, how can different dimensions exist?
To me, different dimensions represent events that could have happened, but if alternate time lines are sucked into the Dead Sea, then how can these different potentialities ever come to fruition?
I know I'm probably overlooking something really obvious, but I'd love some help with this one.Quote from: ZeaLitY...statement by Masato Kato that the Dead Sea is the ruined timeline Crono averted by killing Lavos, and a reflection of destruction that Serge causes.
Ok wait, what gets sent to the Dead Sea and what gets sent to the DBT. I need a refresher. If the above quote is true, then the Lavos who wasn't killed is inside the Dead Sea, with the rest of his timeline.
Lavos in I guess almost every version of the Keystone Timelines was sent to the DBT when he was defeated, so it would seem that he wasn't meshed in with everything else in the Dead Sea. If he was, though, then he is either frozen or dormant.
We got the idea from Kato's "help outside of time" and long-haired design for the guy in the 1005 A.D. cut scene, so it really belonged to Square all along.
We got the idea from Kato's "help outside of time" and long-haired design for the guy in the 1005 A.D. cut scene, so it really belonged to Square all along.
If I remember right, I believe I may have started that mess with Dalton. Many posts ago (and I will track it down in the archives) but I remember posting something about Dalton's glove in the FMV that lead to mass speculation. I will have to confirm this and post a thread link...
We got the idea from Kato's "help outside of time" and long-haired design for the guy in the 1005 A.D. cut scene, so it really belonged to Square all along.
If I remember right, I believe I may have started that mess with Dalton. Many posts ago (and I will track it down in the archives) but I remember posting something about Dalton's glove in the FMV that lead to mass speculation. I will have to confirm this and post a thread link...
*didn't feel like editing my last post and forgive me for the double post"
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4103.msg71794#msg71794 (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4103.msg71794#msg71794)
There it is!!!
I kind of agree Serge. There were a lot of people complaining going "DALTON CAN'T DO THIS OR THAT, HE'S TOO IDIOTIC!". Well, this isn't a slap in the face, it's a FALCONNNN PUNCHHH to the face.
Agreed. Stupid /b/tards, thinking they're God or w/e.
I kind of agree Serge. There were a lot of people complaining going "DALTON CAN'T DO THIS OR THAT, HE'S TOO IDIOTIC!". Well, this isn't a slap in the face, it's a FALCONNNN PUNCHHH to the face.
Agreed. Stupid /b/tards, thinking they're God or w/e.
To be fair, it was (and kinda still is) hard to believe Dalton of all people bringing down a kingdom.
I kind of agree Serge. There were a lot of people complaining going "DALTON CAN'T DO THIS OR THAT, HE'S TOO IDIOTIC!". Well, this isn't a slap in the face, it's a FALCONNNN PUNCHHH to the face.
Agreed. Stupid /b/tards, thinking they're God or w/e.
To be fair, it was (and kinda still is) hard to believe Dalton of all people bringing down a kingdom.
Well considering he was the only enemy they had left who was alive it's not all that weird
Magus told them a lot about them as the prophet, probably. At least that they came from the modern age. Guardia being the only kingdom there, it wouldn't be hard for Dalton to figure out.
Magus told them a lot about them as the prophet, probably. At least that they came from the modern age. Guardia being the only kingdom there, it wouldn't be hard for Dalton to figure out.
Hmm... This actually is the best explanation for how Dalton knows at least about Porre. Whether he knows about Guardia itself or not remains to be seen.
On a side note, does anyone know if that Gate he made at the end of the Epoch battle sent him to that TD or if he found himself there after wandering the other side of that Gate?
Another thing is about how he knew 1,000 A.D. was the correct time. Magus didn't knew they came from that year, and if he didn't knew, much less Dalton would.
But that could be another dead end as well.
It's not impossible that he can enter and leave the Vortex, maybe he already took a look around 1000 AD
It's not impossible that he can enter and leave the Vortex, maybe he already took a look around 1000 AD
If that were true he could have done a lot more, unless he were to stupid to think of anything.
Oh also, the entity that was always spoken by the party, could we say it's FATE? (though I'm pretty sure there would be countless theories about this, whether it's Schala, FATE, or maybe just 4th window, since the entity is the player themselves)
Oh also, the entity that was always spoken by the party, could we say it's FATE? (though I'm pretty sure there would be countless theories about this, whether it's Schala, FATE, or maybe just 4th window, since the entity is the player themselves)
It's impossible for FATE to be the Entity. FATE was created long after CT, in 2400 A.D. of the future that was created when the Day Of Lavos was prevented. As for Schala, or the player... *thinks* ...those are possible.
Oh also, the entity that was always spoken by the party, could we say it's FATE? (though I'm pretty sure there would be countless theories about this, whether it's Schala, FATE, or maybe just 4th window, since the entity is the player themselves)
It's impossible for FATE to be the Entity. FATE was created long after CT, in 2400 A.D. of the future that was created when the Day Of Lavos was prevented. As for Schala, or the player... *thinks* ...those are possible.
Its supposed to be the planet. Japanese version and new translations heavily support it - plus Masato Kato supports it and that pretty much seals the deal lol
It's not impossible that he can enter and leave the Vortex, maybe he already took a look around 1000 AD
If that were true he could have done a lot more, unless he were to stupid to think of anything.
We have no idea what happened to him after he fell into that portal. He could have been lost for days, only recently finding his way, and then sensing the presence of the three that had humiliated him so many times, so he went to try and kill them again, but naturally failed, etc etc so he raises an army and kills off their kingdom instead
Crono and Marle weren't killed in the Fall of Guardia. Since it's questionable whether the team even visited the Darkness Beyond Time or the Dimensional Vortices, they probably didn't know about Dalton until he had already begun his preparations. He might have used the vortices to change history to make things more favorable for Porre, or he might have simply showed up and yes, in five years, used his military command acumen and knowledge of magic to ready a force that could burn Guardia to the ground.It is fairly clear that Schala erases the party's minds concerning the events between the defeat of Lavos and the return to 1000 AD. Since they encounter Dalton between, its not a stretch to assume that their memories of Dalton's speech were erased too.
We can't create a shining future if by doing so we cause the birth of such a destructive monster.
Alright, I'm going to have a shot at deciphering this mysterious turn of events myself, starting with Eclipse Magus.
Who is Eclipse Magus? Where did he come from? Is he from the future, or an alternate dimension?
This is one of the most debated questions thus far, and one of the reasons for this is that most people haven't tried beating the game without recruiting Magus yet (which is understandable, as it's so fucking tempting).
However, I was able to keep another save file handy for this exact purpose, and I can tell you that the same events happen even if you've killed Magus. This is supported by his dialogue both in English and in Japanese in which he says that he doesn't know if he's from your future. But it is quite clear that he defeated Lavos with Crono and his party, thus he is the Magus that left the party during the standard ending (#1). Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that his origins are completely up to the player's performance: if you opted not to fight him and obtained the standard ending, congratulations. You have encountered Future Magus. Otherwise, he is clearly from another dimension, and this is the dimension that is carried on into Chrono Cross. The fact that Magus acknowledges infinite possibilities and thus, infinite dimensions confirms that the #2-12 endings in the game are indeed existent in their own right...but nothing that you need to trouble yourself with because the sequel is based on the canon endings #1 and #13.
I notice one of you is insisting that he could have created another group for this purpose, but why muddle the plot like that? You're only overcomplicating matters. There's no evidence supporting this, anyway. The reason for the Prophet disguise is to make it clear to the player that he is not the same Magus that they've encountered. If by some chance I left him out of my party when I went to Time's Eclipse, if Eclipse Magus didn't have robe on I probably would've assumed right away that my Magus got a headstart.
Regardless of whether the party saw it or not, Magus, following his defeat by Dream Devourer, is soon being tormented by the same despair that seeped into Schala's heart when she wished for everything to be erased (probably also because of Lavos's influence). She got her wish, and Magus got his -- once he entertains the notion of erasing everything that he is and leaving something new behind, that's exactly what happens. It was most likely Schala that granted this during her brief moment of clarity, as well. It could be because of this that Frog regains his human form, as well.
I dont know if this has been said already but maybe the lucca/marle/chrono clones fought in the new dungeon are ....
the party members from when the future wasnt changed and it was destined to be devoured by lavos ?
(oh and the new ending is so sad ......in my oppinon)
What do you think about the new ending other than it being sad? Do you believe that this Magus could be the character "Guile" in Chrono Cross?
I think he probably is, and this is some sort of hook that'll give Kato reason to rewrite some of the plot in Cross. I get the feeling he's had something planned involving Magus in Cross (well, we know he did), so I can't imagine he'd pass up an opportunity to do this. Besides, it'd be interesting to see how Guile is developed into a fully-fledged character.There is no substantial evidence that Guile is Magus. All the "evidence" is circumstantial. Post-Trigger Magus losing his memory is not hinting that he is Guile, it is simply showing why Magus was not a part of the plot in Cross.
And think about this... why hint that Magus is Guile at all? I say this indicates Cross is planned. :)
Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono...
Lavos is no longer here. This is a future timespace where Lavos has already been defeated. We destroyed him.
Nice attempt at backpeddling, but you don't just argue with me off topic and then expect me to get back on topic without rebutting your post.
The fact of the matter is that (and this was stated by Kato himself) he didn't include Magus's story in Chrono Cross because of all the other characters in the game. Don't you think putting 30+ unnecessary characters wastes time and resources that could have been used to develop the vital ones? Seriously, in a 3-member party, how many of the other characters did you even use? I wouldn't be surprised if there were some you haven't even touched to this very day. In Chrono Trigger, every character with the exception of Magus had an equal amount of double and triple techs making it impossible to have an "ultimate" party because it was a matter of preference. They were a team, and you really saw it in the way that every single one of them was able to work together and perform combined abilities. This is something that was lacking in Chrono Cross because Square was so focused on adding more and more characters that they were all diminished as a whole. In fact, the only double tech I can even remember from CC was Serge and Glenn's X-Strike, but wait, Glenn wasn't even a mandatory character. That was total bullshit.
Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono, the following are possibilities:
1.) Magus' defeat at Crono's and Frog's hands somehow heardened his heart, making him blind to his potential to save Schala and continue to focus on revenge instead once he arrived in Zeal.
2.) The "personality change" I've been referring to all along is just a construct of the English translation and was not intended by Kato, and therefore no unseen character development is needed to explain Eclipse Magus' actions.
I'm not quite comfortable with either of those explanations. Chrono'99 points out that Magus' dialogue in the Japanese retranslation provided by Arc_Impulse still feels very "Magus-y" in contrast to the way it turned out in the English version, but we've still got the fact that Magus' utter focus right now is on saving Schala, something fanwriters have long supposed yet never before demonstrated in-game. There's also this possibility...
3.) Magus, as the prophet, successfully defeated Lavos in a one-on-one confrontation (such as the one that presumably takes place in What the Prophet Seeks), witnessed the Dream Devourer's resulting creation, and then decided all of a sudden his entire existence hinges on saving Schala.
But that personality turnaround seems just a bit too quick for me as well. There are probably better explanations out there compatible with the "Past Magus origin" theory, I'm just at a mental loss right now.
I think he probably is, and this is some sort of hook that'll give Kato reason to rewrite some of the plot in Cross. I get the feeling he's had something planned involving Magus in Cross (well, we know he did), so I can't imagine he'd pass up an opportunity to do this. Besides, it'd be interesting to see how Guile is developed into a fully-fledged character.There is no substantial evidence that Guile is Magus. All the "evidence" is circumstantial. Post-Trigger Magus losing his memory is not hinting that he is Guile, it is simply showing why Magus was not a part of the plot in Cross.
And think about this... why hint that Magus is Guile at all? I say this indicates Cross is planned. :)
Magus22, the idea that we're looking at Past Magus and not Future Magus is extremely refreshing, and given that he's in the Prophet's cloak your theory is pretty damn plausible IMO, barring any Time Bastard concerns that might arise. However, we still need to address the personality difference between Eclipse Magus and the Magus who joins up with Crono & co. The Magus we see in CT is utterly bent on destroying Lavos from the moment he sets foot in Zeal, and if he really, really cared about Schala as much as Eclipse Magus does, I think he would have trashed the Mammon Machine and not simply stood by while Schala collapsed trying to power the damn thing up.
Assuming Eclipse Magus is in fact a Magus who was tossed into Zeal without having met Crono, the following are possibilities:
1.) Magus' defeat at Crono's and Frog's hands somehow heardened his heart, making him blind to his potential to save Schala and continue to focus on revenge instead once he arrived in Zeal.
2.) The "personality change" I've been referring to all along is just a construct of the English translation and was not intended by Kato, and therefore no unseen character development is needed to explain Eclipse Magus' actions.
I'm not quite comfortable with either of those explanations. Chrono'99 points out that Magus' dialogue in the Japanese retranslation provided by Arc_Impulse still feels very "Magus-y" in contrast to the way it turned out in the English version, but we've still got the fact that Magus' utter focus right now is on saving Schala, something fanwriters have long supposed yet never before demonstrated in-game. There's also this possibility...
3.) Magus, as the prophet, successfully defeated Lavos in a one-on-one confrontation (such as the one that presumably takes place in What the Prophet Seeks), witnessed the Dream Devourer's resulting creation, and then decided all of a sudden his entire existence hinges on saving Schala.
But that personality turnaround seems just a bit too quick for me as well. There are probably better explanations out there compatible with the "Past Magus origin" theory, I'm just at a mental loss right now.
Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.
Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, I do not know.
There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.
A new foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse.
It feasts upon thoughts, dreams, and memories.
Do not think to meddle here. This enemy is my affair.
Hmm, it would seem that most people subscribe to Occam's Razor in this case. If Occam is correct here, then we have to assume that Eclipse Magus is Future Magus as originally supposed(...?).
So, Chrono Theorists, what effect does this have on Time Bastard, if any? Could the Darkness Beyond Time contain exceptions to Time Bastard, perhaps? Magus never sees himself except on two occasions:
1.) In Zeal (as Janus), and Time Bastard theory takes this into consideration by obliterating little Janus to my understanding. Awww.
And for anyone who's new here and hasn't a clue what Time Bastard is, see here. (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Principles_of_Time_and_Dimensional_Travel.html)
Quote from: Time's Eclipse MagusHere, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.
Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, I do not know.
There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.
A new foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse.
It feasts upon thoughts, dreams, and memories.
Do not think to meddle here. This enemy is my affair.
So what do you think happened? Dalton figured out how the distortion worked and found his way to kill Crono, Marle, and Lucca? And I wonder if Dalton actually overthrew Porre and took over.
Did the party truly encounter Dream Devourer and Eclipse Magus, or was that a plot device?
Now it's your turn again. Don't worry. Retreat and you will age. Hesitate and you will die. Yes, that was ripped from Bleach, but it doesn't make this post any less spectacular
Bringing this thread back to topic everyone,I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.
I agree with Art in the fact that Eclipse Magus is post-Trigger Magus and let's try not to over analyze it. Instead let's move on to another analysis.
The clones: while this was touched on briefly, I actually wanted to go into it a little more.
Why is it that there are only clones for Crono, Marle and Lucca?
I think that these 3 characters specifically were the ones chosen by the entity, as you will, in order to begin the changes necessary in order to save the planet from Lavos.
Thoughts?
I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.
The Ghost Children are spectres of Crono, Marle, and Lucca that first appear to Serge in the Dead Sea. There, they accuse him of negating all their hard work to save the future and thwart Lavos. Miguel then cryptically dismisses them as echoes from ones far gone.
Later, before Serge made his final voyage to the Darkness Beyond Time, they appeared on Opassa Beach and amazingly revealed much information about Project Kid, Belthasar's planning, and Serge's ultimate purpose in using the Chrono Cross to free Schala from the Time Devourer. During the conversation, the Lucca phantom even interacted with Kid as if she were the genuine article. The children then ushered Serge on.
I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.
I'm not trying to win any popularity contests if that's what ya think
Points at his sig
Don't worry, I'm not afraid to go in a heavy discussion about it
Takes a fail to know a fail. As for me, I think that while one is entitled to one's own opinion, one should keep the negative parts to oneself.No duh. Failure is a part of life; difference is for those who learn and grow from it. Think of it as friendly negativity for the encouragement to strive to be better than my shlock, as I am just a deluded bum.
In response to the idea that Eclipse Magus is from 12,000 BC when Magus was acting as The Prophet:Thats part of why I suggested it is post-Trigger Magus, but also included that he may have been in using the image of The Prophet to his advantage from the perspective that he sought out Schala from 12000 BC (as seen in the ending of CT) and then moved on from there and then ended up on the TE. However, the cloak probably doesn't have a connection to even the image of the prophet at all. He might had simply worn it for the ritual he used to get to time's eclipse, or even as safety gear when he worked alongside Doc Brown to create the flux capacitor he used in the ritual.
Why is this idea so appealing? It only complicates matters. Simply because he is wearing his full cloak and hood does not mean that he is from the same time as The Prophet. It adds nothing to the story and poses huge Time Bastard problems if it is true.
Anyone notice that Fiona's forest is doomed to turn to desert even with Robo's help? While you're on the Epoch and choosing the era that you wish to visit, as I was admiring 1999AD zoomed out map, I noticed that even after doing Fiona's forest quest, the desert is still there on the map. Perhaps SE forgot it's change? Not likely I would think, since they have many people working on that game.
Anyone notice that Fiona's forest is doomed to turn to desert even with Robo's help? While you're on the Epoch and choosing the era that you wish to visit, as I was admiring 1999AD zoomed out map, I noticed that even after doing Fiona's forest quest, the desert is still there on the map. Perhaps SE forgot it's change? Not likely I would think, since they have many people working on that game.
I've noticed, considering I recently have the sidequest done. Yes, it's strange how it is still a desert in 1,999. However, I also noticed a building where Fiona's Shrine should be. Could it be the shrine? I can't remember if the building was there before having the sidequest done, so no idea.
So many posts on this thread, I've forgotten half of them already after reading everything.
Anyone notice that Fiona's forest is doomed to turn to desert even with Robo's help? While you're on the Epoch and choosing the era that you wish to visit, as I was admiring 1999AD zoomed out map, I noticed that even after doing Fiona's forest quest, the desert is still there on the map. Perhaps SE forgot it's change? Not likely I would think, since they have many people working on that game.
I also wonder if the Sun Shrine were to be accessible in 1999AD, since on that map it seems that it's no longer a mountain, but rather a forest. Since the map is zoomed out, I can't really tell. But my theory is, green earth and trees just kept growing over the Sun Shrine and perhaps its mountain started to lower in height after some time, then Lavos burned it all with its rain of fire and then you have 2300AD's Sun Shrine... But of course this is just one of those insignificant details that can't be explained.
Has this thread talked about Lost Sanctum? I'm very much curious about it.
As for the topic of Magus and Time's Eclipse, I'm not at that part yet. So is this thread solely for Magus? If so, I apologize and will post my above comments in another section. :)
I've noticed, considering I recently have the sidequest done. Yes, it's strange how it is still a desert in 1,999. However, I also noticed a building where Fiona's Shrine should be. Could it be the shrine
But you BOTH have the similarity of being really high on yourselves.
It's pretty awesome to read.
Wow, talk about off-topic. I thought this was an analysis of CTDS, not a debate on whether or not CC is a good game or a good sequel to CT.
Personally, I side with Dark Serge, but can we move the debate to a different thread?
The forest magus got teleported too could be shadow forest in el nido ?
So, you mean to say that no matter how hard I strive - no matter how strong I grow - there is nothing I might do to save you?
Hmph. If this is to be the way of things, then let me adandon all that was and fade away as well.
Should a part of me somehow even then remain, then perhaps that will be the birth of something new - something with greater meaning than all this.
Some people on this board are right. Magus giving up? Perposterous! Well, this birth of something new could indicate Guile in CC, perhaps that new purpose being to end up and serve Serge (try to say that 5 times in a row!). He then states that there was still something he needed to do... something to find... We know Guile is from the Zenan mainland, and that forest resembles Guardia in the final CT DS ending scene. Schala sent Crono and company back to their time, and I believe she did the same with Magus - Crono's time and not 600AD. This may be valid and answer many questions. Where else would she send him?
It would be totally sweet if the "we" refers to Prophet Magus and Schala. C'mon everyone, you know that if Magus and Schala teamed up, they could totally clean up. Why, justin3009 is already positing Magus/Schala double techs...
I have no idea why a victorious Schala would just happen to be sucked up by the Dream/Time Devourer though, so yeah.
Well I'd like to see more analysis of the Lost Sanctum, but it seems everyone pretty much despises it.
Let's keep it on topic from here on out, capiche? New theory articles will need to be written based on the material in this thread, so we must keep it as clean as possible from now on.
Something else - any dropped/unused dialogue that may still exist in the game's text.
このセカイにワタシはヒトリでいい…
アナタはキエなさい！{end}
One of me is all this world needs.
Begone, for all eternity!
{Marle}「…戦うしか、ないのね。
私もここでやられるわけには
いかない！！{end}
{Marle}: I guess...I guess I have to fight you.
I don't want to be gone for all eternity!
---アナタさえいなけレバ…
キエテしまいナサイ！
You are all that stands in the way...
You must die!
(I don't have the complete Japanese line yet)
{Lucca}: So much for getting along...
Looks like we have some irreconcilable differences
to take care of, doesn't it?
I can't see how Home World would remain, as that is the dimension where the world is eventually destroyed by Lavos. I guess the base was Another World, and some things from Home World were thrown into that. Like Serge surviving for example. But I don't think it would erase events that happened outside of El Nido, for some reason.Schala said 'unified', so that means the new world is neither home world or anothers world,.
The text appeared in all three shades I fought. I remember because I defeated Dalton but was not aware you could go any further. Then I went through the other two and found out you can. I fought Marle, then Lucca, then Crono. All three had something to say.Laith, you mean your party responded to all three shades?
The text appeared in all three shades I fought. I remember because I defeated Dalton but was not aware you could go any further. Then I went through the other two and found out you can. I fought Marle, then Lucca, then Crono. All three had something to say.
From Hell? Where did you get that idea? I thought they might have been from the DBT or something.
It would be sweet if they escaped and started running amok. However, we're lacking Ayla's, Robo's, and Frog's clones from the Black Omen if that's the case.
I think there supposedly a new ending FMV, but, like Dark Serge said, the possibility of any new FMV has pretty much been debunked.
I think there supposedly a new ending FMV, but, like Dark Serge said, the possibility of any new FMV has pretty much been debunked.
Well, there was that cutscene with the Fall of Guardia and the Masamune being stolen. Woo hoo.
I'm hoping when I finish the dialogue for Crimson Echoes. That's when I'll try to eliminate my to-do list (although I guess things are begging for an update before then). If anyone wants to make my life easier, they can compile all the schools of thought and name theories to them (I'll still read the entire thread, of course, and there will probably be final discussions).
Maybe they are just a trial from the Entity?Their dialogue gives them the same motivation as the appearance of the ghost children in the Dead Sea, so I think its safe to say that they are the same or very similar apparitions. Which would make them the ghosts of a dead future that was eliminated by Chrono and team in their time-traveling exploits.
Since after the battle, it says 'someone's latent powers awakened.'
Or it reminds me the ghost children in CC, only the trio are there, how strange.
They don't speak... That sounds like they are some shadow like things...
Their dialogue gives them the same motivation as the appearance of the ghost children in the Dead Sea, so I think its safe to say that they are the same or very similar apparitions. Which would make them the ghosts of a dead future that was eliminated by Chrono and team in their time-traveling exploits.
(By the way, is their dialogue in the game or just in the script dump? I have yet to play that part.)
Maybe the clones are previous versions of Crono/Marle/Lucca that got shafted to the Darkness Beyond Time throughout their journey and they are pissed about that. Doubtful, I know, but I don't really see a reason or motive why a Crono from a different dimension would want to kill the party.
art_garfunkel might be talking about the lines I posted from a script dump.Yes, I couldn't find the post, but I definitely saw some lines in a script dump that were attributed to them. Thank you.
If I read one more overly-complicated, hair-brained concoction of a theory about Eclipse Magus or Guile i'm going to throw up. I don't understand why people want to complicate things more than they have to be.
Does going/being sent to the DBT even count as time travel according to Chronoverse temporal physics? This is something that really needs clarification if we're to finally decide between "lol memory wipe" and "lol didn't happen." I really don't like either theory, but if I tried to make my own I'm sure it would be well and truly wrong.Being sent to the DBT counts as being wiped from existance. (Only if you get there by way of a change being made to the past. Lavos and Schala got sucked into there under different circumstances.) No need to travel to any point in time, you simply cease to be.
Lavos and Schala got sucked into there under different circumstances.) No need to travel to any point in time, you simply cease to be.
"Very well."
The reflection of the statue begins to ripple a little. Gradually, the mirror
fades into darkness.
However, after a minute or two, nothing materializes...
What could this mean?
Serge only sees Magil's past in "Magil: Caught Between Love and Adventure".Yeah, that might because I read the script too much so I get confused.
Magil only had a relationship with Riddel in one gag scenario. Kid assumed the photo in Lynx's desk was Riddel, but she hadn't seen her yet, and it's later hinted that the picture was actually of Schala (Serge thinks Schala in Magil's past shown by the mirror looks similar, and in RD, Viper Manor was built on Zeal ruins).
...Must remember to ask utunnels to look those parts up in the Japanese to see if that's right.
Does going/being sent to the DBT even count as time travel according to Chronoverse temporal physics? This is something that really needs clarification if we're to finally decide between "lol memory wipe" and "lol didn't happen."I always considered dbt to be a where rather than a when, but Serge & Co make it there by time egg, so maybe a little time & dimension travel?
Well, the whole reason I asked is because if it does count as time travel, Time Bastard gets invoked, and kinda makes the whole trip impossible. I know, I know, theories should fit evidence, not the other way around, but still, the mere presence of EM...I don't see how Time Bastard has anything to do with Lavos being sent to the DBT.
Time bastard is just a theory. It doesn't have to fit in with it.Time Bastard is an established law governing time travel in the Chrono universe. Everything has to work with it, or it is bust.
Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong. If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.
No, he could be the Magus from your party, simply from the future. His dialogue is ambiguous enough however to accommodate both versions of events.Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong. If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.
From what Eclipse Magus says, he is not the same Magus that is in the party, meaning the former can do his trip to the DBT even if the latter was killed back on the North Cape.
No, he could be the Magus from your party, simply from the future. His dialogue is ambiguous enough however to accommodate both versions of events.Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong. If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.
From what Eclipse Magus says, he is not the same Magus that is in the party, meaning the former can do his trip to the DBT even if the latter was killed back on the North Cape.
Voice: Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.
*reveals himself as another Magus*
Magus: Whether that is the future from which you come, I do not know.
I thought the line was as follows...Because of TTI Eclipse magus does not have to remember the events, because he would be immune to changes he made in the past. Just because theyre in the DBT does not mean that TTI is broken.Quote from: Eclipse Magus Encounter (USA version)Voice: Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.
*reveals himself as another Magus*
Magus: Whether that is the future from which you come, I do not know.
OK, now that I've read the quote, he IMPLIES the possibility that he might not have joined the party, even if you did recruit Magus as well as have him in the party that shows up to meet him.
Art, if E.M. was from the future, he'd remember the battle and know that it was futile anyway since he saw his own future, which might have been stronger, get pwned just before the party fights the Dream Devourer. And yes, I can concede the possibility that E.M. was not in the party at the time.
That's why I think he might have been from another timeline. Remember, the Darkness Of Time runs perpendicular to the regular timeline(s).
You can't apply TTI to Magus unilaterally. If he has it, Crono and his party have it as well.I think you fail to understand how Time Traveler Immunity works.
Time Bastard is an established law governing time travel in the Chrono universe. Everything has to work with it, or it is bust.Time bastard is never stated in the game. Unless the developers stated that it was canon, it is a theory. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying you can't disprove people's theories with other theories.
While they never have an explanatory text box saying "THIS IS TIME BASTARD AND THIS IS HOW IT WORKS" Time Bastard fits the the facts that THEY DID put into the game. Theory yes, but then again in true science theory is as good as it gets. So yes, you can disprove a theory using facts. Time Bastard is a theory grounded in facts (events that take occur in both Trigger and Cross).Time Bastard is an established law governing time travel in the Chrono universe. Everything has to work with it, or it is bust.Time bastard is never stated in the game. Unless the developers stated that it was canon, it is a theory. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying you can't disprove people's theories with other theories.
Time bastard is never stated in the game. Unless the developers stated that it was canon, it is a theory. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying you can't disprove people's theories with other theories.
An example of my position is Marle's disappearance in 600 A.D. at the very beginning of the game.
IMO, she gets a taste of Time Bastard, but the Entity preserves her, despite the fact that she still has to go to the Darkness Of Time until her existence is reinstated in the timeline.
"Future" Magus is tantamount to saying he's the Magus the party recruited in CT, for purposes of this thread. If people want to delineate the Magus we see in the Darkness Beyond Time from the Magus who we recruit in CT, best to call him Eclipse Magus. However, Eclipse Magus and Future Magus may be one in the same. Er, yeah.*ahem* My mistake... I'll keep that in mind, I also kind phrased that first point poorly...
Aha, aha! More circumstantial evidence that if the Chrono Trigger team did make it into the DBT, their memories of the dimensional vortices and DBT may have been erased -- remember how Serge & co.'s memories are erased as part of the canonical ending of Chrono Cross? This is apparently something Schala is able to do voluntarily, because the alternate endings in Cross clearly illustrate that the characters have retained their memories after exiting the DBT.I love you for this post. I've been trying to come up with something to validate that idea for a while. Thanks.
Not sure it's been mentioned before, but I think the connection here is important.
Original Dimension, Savegame 1
Porre strikes; party
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------> doesn't know a thing, ---> Chrono Cross Events
| | | | Guardia falls
Crono and party Moonlight Parade The party continues to |
defeat Lavos; events; Party Magus live an happy life, |
Lavos goes to DBT sets back to 12000 BC save for Party Magus |
and forms the to save Schala; which learns that Schala |
Dream Devourer player gets access is kept at Lavos' stake |
to the Dimensional in Time's Eclipse |
Vortexes |
|
|
Party Magus finds a way to the
Time's Eclipse and go there
|
+---------------------------------------------------+
|
Time's Eclipse, Savegame 1*|
|
---------------------------+---------> Dream Devourer events
|
+----------------------------------------------------+
|
Alternate Dimension, Savegame 1* Alternate Crono's party go to the Time's Eclipse
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+--+--> Porre strikes, but the heroes knew and win
| | | |
Instead of defeating They encounter Dalton Gaspar senses something Party is teleported
Lavos, this alternate which tells his dreams at 1999 AD; the way to by Schala out of
Crono's party goes of conquering Guardia Time's Eclipse is open DBT
to the DVs with Porre's army
*note: Savegame 1 is the Original savegame, Savegame 1* means that the player has saved after the credits roll (so, he basically added the DVs to
the Original Savegame).
I know it's been a long time since I've been active here, but the new release is bringing a bunch of people out of the woodworks, it seems. Picked up both the game and a DS over the weekend, spent all weekend savoring it (working on the sidequests post-Crono revival now), and decided to stop in and see what was up. Found this, though, and had to weigh in with my two cents.So, does this means that the whole Dream Devourer thing is a 'post-game event'? It could make sense that way. Although, how would they get there I don't know.
The point is raised that since this takes place in the old save file after beating the game, where does the fight take place? Is it in a world after Lavos' defeat, or before? Why does it have to be clear cut?
If we assume that Lavos' defeat pushes him into the Tesseract, where he joins with Schala, then there is no problem here. After all, the Tesseract is a side dimension, and is equally accessible from 65,000,000 BC as it is from the End of Time. Time flows differently there, so Lavos is present after you end the game, even though you haven't beaten him yet. Both he and Schala are there, despite Lavos still threatening the world, because you shunted him there earlier.
All it requires is thinking of reloading the old save file as a form of time travel. You're taking the characters back in time to a point before Lavos was defeated, but the Tesseract is unchanging. It doesn't care what you do, it will remain the same.
Anyway, that's just my two cents; we'll see how they hold up despite having been gone far too long.
How can Crono's party even meet the Dream Devourer?
They can because this only happens in New Game+, i.e. in the timeline in which the Time's Eclipse/Darkness Beyond Time already saw a defeated Lavos enter it. Crono's party can still meet the living Lavos in 1,999 A.D., but that's because his pocket dimension may not be extra-temporal after all.
To understand that, imagine that Serge, in Chrono Cross, could time travel to 12,001 B.C. (one year before the Ocean Palace incident). He would definitely meet Schala in Zeal, but that doesn't change the fact that in the Darkness Beyond Time, a Schala has already appeared from 12,000 B.C. to form the Time Devourer.
To go back to CT DS...This basically means that in New Game+, you're playing the "past" versions of the time travelers (the "present" versions are the ones from New Game, who defeated Lavos and created the Dream Devourer for the "past" versions to see). Mmh, actually, this should mean that the "past" versions get Time Bastarded at one point...I'm not sure this theory holds water, but it's something to consider. Especially if their Time Bastardization is what leads to the party not remembering Dalton's shocking relevation.
This is ridiculous. Chrono and co. fight the DD after they fight Lavos, clearly. Savegames are a gameplay feature. the fact that you have to reload a file to get to the Vortexes means nothing in terms of the timeline.
To address the above posts, I don't think anything shows them as being able to travel back that precisely (i.e. beating Lavos and then, for no apparent reason, jumping back a couple of days to tackle the vortexes before Lavos' defeat). Short of Entity intervention (like with Lucca's mother, presumably) I see neither a basis for or evidence of this. The best possibility for the events being canon is that the DD caused the vortexes to open prior to the defeat of Lavos. The problem I have with that is simple. If the old timeline is wiped with the defeat of Lavos (especially if it happens in antiquity), how can the vortexes express themselves in a timeline where Lavos' presence is everywhere (most notably with the future gate)?
Because your understanding of the way time flows is wrong.
Atleast that is what I am thinking. If the DD is beyond time, it can affect anything it wants.
The DD does not exist in the DBT until Lavos is defeated, obviously. It is impossible to fight the DD until Lavos has been defeated, due to Time Error. The DBT (containing the Dream Devourer) is subject to Time Error, therefore this entire idea that you can fight the Dream Devourer before Lavos is defeated is absurd.
I fail to see what is so hard to accept about Chrono and co. fighting the DD after they defeat Lavos. Why make up a more complicated explanation than what works?The DD does not exist in the DBT until Lavos is defeated, obviously. It is impossible to fight the DD until Lavos has been defeated, due to Time Error. The DBT (containing the Dream Devourer) is subject to Time Error, therefore this entire idea that you can fight the Dream Devourer before Lavos is defeated is absurd.
Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.
So I guess the difference in my opinion is that (and correct me if I misunderstand you) you feel the events happened as shown, but we must take into account limitations of save games and the developers, for whatever reason, not making a new future. I feel that because they didn't, it either invalidates certain things from being plausible or it showcases severe laziness on the part of the CT DS team. And, giving them benefit of the doubt, I tend to just think that some dramatic license was used to show us some bonus content post-game.
Wow, after having been away for a couple of weeks, I find the Compendium completely renewed. Can't say I don't like the new look, but I'm used to the good ol' Compendium.Long time no see. I hope you don't get lost after such a long absence...
Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.
And what happened to Shadow D. Darkman? Did he get... banned?
The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.
This. It IS possible that a version of Crono's party (the "past" version) fights the Dream Devourer "before" Lavos is defeated by the "present" version of Crono's party. I'm putting all these words in quotation marks because I use them in terms of Time Error, not normal time.
That's why I'm not sure you understood the theory correctly, art_garfunkel. You brought up Time Error as if we didn't take it into account already. We have at least 4 people here that came up with the same theory; it's not any more complicated than any other explanation. Again, think about Fiona's Forest. "Past" versions of Crono's party will see the forest when the "present" versions of them (the versions that the player controls) did not.
But they are not saying that the Crono who fights the DD is the same that fought Lavos. Isn't that simple to understand?
The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.Exactly. But since the game expresses the distortions in a realm where Lavos exists (as I said above, the future gate is clearly in the ruined future, and Gaspar is given dialogue specifically acknowledging both Lavos and the DD simultaneously) these events have to either be an alternate timeline (that may or may not be significant) or non-canon. By that, I mean as far as the CT team's interaction. I have no doubt that the plot points expressed where meant to show us some game-bridging material. Dalton coming out of the vortex in 1000AD to instigate a war, Magus pursuing the DD and then reinventing himself after his failed rescue attempt, etc.
This. It IS possible that a version of Crono's party (the "past" version) fights the Dream Devourer "before" Lavos is defeated by the "present" version of Crono's party. I'm putting all these words in quotation marks because I use them in terms of Time Error, not normal time.
That's why I'm not sure you understood the theory correctly, art_garfunkel. You brought up Time Error as if we didn't take it into account already. We have at least 4 people here that came up with the same theory; it's not any more complicated than any other explanation. Again, think about Fiona's Forest. "Past" versions of Crono's party will see the forest when the "present" versions of them (the versions that the player controls) did not.
Your forest example seems to back up what i'm saying. Just like Chrono will not see the forest in 1000 AD until Robo changes the past, Chrono will not see the Devourer until Lavos is defeated.
The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.
Dalton
Why are people such Dalton-haters? Just because he can't beat your whole party that means he is weak and pathetic? He has control of the Golem family, has great military skills (Via becoming leader after the fall of Zeal, as well as the Porre army.), and great technological knowledge. You didn't see Lucca adding the wings to the Epoch. He also reached somewhat of a rank in Zeal, which is a lot in itself, since there were so many natural magic users to compete with in Zeal. He is obviously a person of great power. Now, if they make an FMV ending, it is obviously of importance. If Dalton was indeed the one who took the Masamune, this would hold specially true, since his dark dreams were stronger than the dreams of Melchior, Crono, Cyrus, Frog, and any of the other Masamune users in history. Now, I just believe that the music that played the last time you meet Dalton is to reflect what the party thinks of him. They underestimated him, and paid the price.
I think it is fairly obvious that this is simply an accommodation for gameplay. Do you really expect them to rewrite all the dialog and create a whole new post-Lavos world for you to run around in? As cool as that would be, clearly they did not.The only thing I fail to understand is your over-complicated explanation of what seems to be a very simple concept. The DBT is subject to Time Error. Therefore the Devourer can not exist from Chrono and co.'s perspective until Lavos has been defeated.
That's the thing... I'm saying the same thing that you are, just with a different conclusion drawn at the end. The DD can not exist from the anyone's perspective until Lavos has been defeated. And when changes are made to the timeline, that timeline is wiped and replaced with the new one (excluding the split of Home World and Another World). Yet the game presents the DD in a timeline where Lavos can be fought, areas that changed immediately upon his death are unchanged, and new dialog is written acknowledging his continued existence. So, we have a problem. The events as laid out in the game itself couldn't have happened.
Maybe Dalton is just insane and egocentric, but more of a genius than you would think. It takes brains to manipulate people, and engineer such machinery. Maybe he can be compared to some type of incompetent nerd that will deliver at certain situations? Do you think he did take the sword? If so, why was it abandoned?
I think it is fairly obvious that this is simply an accommodation for gameplay. Do you really expect them to rewrite all the dialog and create a whole new post-Lavos world for you to run around in? As cool as that would be, clearly they did not.
Forgive my wording, but the sheer volume of over-analysis on the Compendium concerning CT-DS has been frustrating, to say the least. And I simply view your idea as just that, over-analysis.I think it is fairly obvious that this is simply an accommodation for gameplay. Do you really expect them to rewrite all the dialog and create a whole new post-Lavos world for you to run around in? As cool as that would be, clearly they did not.
A New Game + is a simple accommodation for gameplay. That doesn't mean we give serious consideration to the canonical merits of Frog marrying Leene.
It's perfectly ok that we disagree, in my mind. These are, after all, theories and speculation. It's the matter-of-fact statements like "ridiculous" and "absurd" that are troubling. Especially considering that your theory seems to rely on the crutch of gameplay convenience and general developer laziness.
If you want a specific answer, the simplest I can give is no. They didn't need to rewrite all the dialog. It isn't like most NPC's knew much about Lavos anyway. It would have gone a long way towards credibility if they hadn't given brand new dialog to Gaspar referring to both Lavos and the DD in the present tense, however.
Seriously, disable the Day of Lavos event, take down the Omen, write some one or two line bs reason to block access to the future, shuffle the vortexes so they appear in the modern era, middle ages, and antiquity, and there you go. It really wouldn't have been that hard.
I apoligize for not reading this thread in it's entirety before posting, as this idea is obvious enough that others have probably posted the same thing already. I just felt the need to post my own views on the ending while they are still fresh in my mind.So the sum up is: The Dimensional Vortexes/DD become accessable at all points on Time Error once created? That would do it - though it's adding Time Error Error (6D) for just one area of the game.
Could it be that the Darkness Beyond Time exists beyond Time Error? We never get a clear explanation on temporal physics in CT and how they interact with places beyond the flow of time. The End of Time obviously runs off of time error, Gaspar is the perfect example of this. Is the Darkness Beyond Time necessarily the same though?
I propose that the darkness beyond time transcends Time Error (and the Time Stream itself) the way Time Error transcends normal time. Once something enters the Darkness Beyond Time it is as if it was always there. The DBT transcends the time stream in a way no other location does. In this way once Lavos was defeated once (the first time you beat him to unlock the Dimensional Vortexes) and he is discarded to the DBT with Schala, it is as if he were ALWAYS there. Hence if you go back into the game the DD is available while it wasn't before you 'defeated' Lavos earlier on the cartridge.
I think this 'gameplay quirk' of having to beat Lavos to unlock the DD is more then just a quirk. The DD could not exist until Lavos's defeat, but after his defeat in one timeline he will be in the DBT for ALL timelines.
I apoligize for not reading this thread in it's entirety before posting, as this idea is obvious enough that others have probably posted the same thing already. I just felt the need to post my own views on the ending while they are still fresh in my mind.If that were the case, how could you ever remove him from the DBT? I see your point, but I see no reason to say that the DBT is immune to Time Error.
Could it be that the Darkness Beyond Time exists beyond Time Error? We never get a clear explanation on temporal physics in CT and how they interact with places beyond the flow of time. The End of Time obviously runs off of time error, Gaspar is the perfect example of this. Is the Darkness Beyond Time necessarily the same though?
I propose that the darkness beyond time transcends Time Error (and the Time Stream itself) the way Time Error transcends normal time. Once something enters the Darkness Beyond Time it is as if it was always there. The DBT transcends the time stream in a way no other location does. In this way once Lavos was defeated once (the first time you beat him to unlock the Dimensional Vortexes) and he is discarded to the DBT with Schala, it is as if he were ALWAYS there. Hence if you go back into the game the DD is available while it wasn't before you 'defeated' Lavos earlier on the cartridge.
I think this 'gameplay quirk' of having to beat Lavos to unlock the DD is more then just a quirk. The DD could not exist until Lavos's defeat, but after his defeat in one timeline he will be in the DBT for ALL timelines.
So the sum up is: The Dimensional Vortexes/DD become accessable at all points on Time Error once created? That would do it - though it's adding Time Error Error (6D) for just one area of the game.
Well what the hell, whatever it takes to make sense of it without leaning back on developer laziness.
If that were the case, how could you ever remove him from the DBT? I see your point, but I see no reason to say that the DBT is immune to Time Error.
Why is developer laziness an unacceptable reason?
So the sum up is: The Dimensional Vortexes/DD become accessable at all points on Time Error once created? That would do it - though it's adding Time Error Error (6D) for just one area of the game.
Well what the hell, whatever it takes to make sense of it without leaning back on developer laziness.
Oh Eske, you make every idea so much simpler. Yes that is exactly what I meant, I feel it's the most elegent solution to the problem (other then developer oversight).
@art_garfunkel once the TD is destroyed at Time Error Error X, he will cease to exist on all points on Time Error after that.
In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.Supported. 100%. This is truth. Best theory ever.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...
Ahh, what did I say just now?
The real hole in my theory is that if the DBT transcends time like this then why isn't the Time Devourer mature and devouring time before you can stop it? I'll have to think on that, though I feel it may have something to do with Schala resisting (or using Kid as her link to the time error of the world).My point exactly. If the DBT exists as one flattened point of space-time then it would be impossible to stop the DD, because the DD would already be finished with what it was doing.
In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.Supported. 100%. This is truth. Best theory ever.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...
Ahh, what did I say just now?QuoteThe real hole in my theory is that if the DBT transcends time like this then why isn't the Time Devourer mature and devouring time before you can stop it? I'll have to think on that, though I feel it may have something to do with Schala resisting (or using Kid as her link to the time error of the world).My point exactly. If the DBT exists as one flattened point of space-time then it would be impossible to stop the DD, because the DD would already be finished with what it was doing.
In fact, Magus is Wazuki in CC, Serge's father.
1. His age.
2. His blue hair.
3. Lynx's innate is black
4. Lynx uses a reaping-hook...
Ahh, what did I say just now?
Especially amusing if Chrono turns out to be Miguel.
I believe that was already stated elsewhere. I found it funny, but IDR where it was stated.
Methinks that for Lavos, his transformation into the Dream/Time Devourer was a convenient coincidence, which he used somewhat to get his revenge on the seven that slew him. I think he fed off of Schala's negative emotions to fuel his evolution.I don't think its appropriate to pin emotions on Lavos. It was by nature a consumer; it sought to consume everything around it. Therefore, when it merged with a powerful magic-user and gained the ability to consume the very fabric of space-time, it simply did what it did best: start consuming.
True, he wasn't planning on the transformation, but he did put it to good use, at least, until Serge turned up with the Chrono Cross in hand.
And? Shouldn't he have at least a trace of sentience, or was he programmed to fight the way he did?Well, its a possibility. There is no indication however that Lavos has any more motivation than to "eat," if you will. I prefer to see him more as an base animal than a sentient being; I feel that that fits the facts better.
If he does, why shouldn't that sentience evolve into something bigger?
Hm, but inside of Lavos you find what looks like a big set of power armor housing computer-like core systems working in tandem with a composite creature created from the most favorable DNA harvested. I think sentience is likely, though possibly one so alien as to not make sense to a human. I doubt Lavos feels any more malice or remorse for wiping out humanity than we would for disposing of an ant colony that had grown out of control in our yard.
Personally, I think it might be the case that evolution is the driving force of Lavos and his race. They go from planet to planet, analyze and appropriate the DNA of lifeforms on these planets, assimilate the DNA they deem useful into their own genetic structures, mass produce spawn that presumably also possess this acquired DNA and will take to the stars themselves someday in their own evolutionary quests, and then return to space in search of another planet. Lavos is more than simply parasitic; Lavos is attempting to become a higher lifeform. Whether that means Lavos is a sentient creature or is instinctively acting on an innate drive to evolve are open questions, but there certainly seems to be more to Lavos' nature than just consumption judging by his gathering and utilization of genetic material.
Expanding this idea raises the interesting possibility that the Time Devourer might be an aberration in the normal evolutionary process for Lavos, though. Gradual, internal metamorphosis seems to be the approach Lavos takes with its growth, but with Schala rather than simply copying and appropriating her DNA Lavos opted to fuse with her. Instead of one lifeform becoming a more advanced lifeform, two lifeforms would become a new lifeform. Similarly, while Lavos has demonstrated the ability to warp and manipulate time, Lavos still exists _within_ time. So, even for Lavos, The Darkness Beyond Time was likely an alien environment with alien properties, and in order to survive Lavos might have had no choice but to fuse with Schala. And it is entirely possible that during the fusion process, as Schala and Lavos' minds became one, that Schala's human emotions "corrupted" Lavos, replacing Lavo's genetic imperative to evolve with a more nihilistic drive. After all, becoming a lifeform that devours dimensions might be a high apex of evolution, but it seems somewhat counterproductive if at the same time it destroys the rest of Lavos' species and eliminates alternative paths of evolution.
Hey, you fight Crono Shade at Leene Square, just like Miguel! Could that be where Crono died? You fight Lucca at her room, could that be where she died? You fight Marle at castle, where she died?Interesting, never thought about it before.
I don't think anyone Owned the Masamune per say, but it was hidden.
Porre didn't had a ferry to Medina, it was Truce.
The name's Bandeau.
Here to build the ferry that's to service Medina and Truce.
Full Name: Luccia
Occupation: Scientific Genius
Origin: Zenan Mainland
She probably originated from Porre; the militaristic city became her main place of employment, as she worked with her brother, another scientific genius whose personal project was the creation of Grobyc. She met Luccia during her time on the mainland; the two exchanged notes and dialogue about a variety of subjects (Lucca even spoke to her of the Epoch). While Luccia remained stoic about most subjects when conversing with others, she took much pride and enthusiasm in her work, and jumped at opportunities to collect new data. Unfortunately, tragedy would strike her life three times....
.....Four years later, around 1015 A.D., Lynx and Harle burned Lucca's house to the ground. Fortunately, Lucca had left a letter with Luccia with instructions telling her to give the correspondence to Kid in 1020 A.D. The last tragic event to befall Luccia was the death of her brother in a lab explosion at Porre. Set by Norris to destroy the StrongArm and protect the world from a potentially dangerous Grobyc, it claimed her brother's life, though he was able to save Grobyc.
Grobyc is a bionic organism constructed in 994 A.D. at the military laboratories of Porre by Luccia's brother. While originally intended for other, perhaps more scientific purposes, Grobyc came to be outfitted for killing and warfare by the Porre overseers. Specifically, Porre excavations near ancient ruins found an old, incomplete superweapon called the StrongArm; high command commissioned Luccia's brother to repair it for use on Grobyc. Norris, the astute commander of the elite Black Wind, foresaw the danger of unleashing Grobyc upon the outside world with this weapon, and orchestrated a sabotage of the laboratory that resulted in its explosion. Luccia's brother sacrificed his life to save Grobyc; this set back his activation until 1020 A.D. and destroyed the StrongArm weapon.
yeah but didn't porre mostly stay out of El Nido untill the Dragoons got Backstabbed by Lynx?
Unless you don't count that in 920 AD it was Porre the first one of the outside world to discover El Nido, and that after, people of the mainland started to come and go.
Seriously, Trans, tell me you're joking. The Dragonians were the descendants of the Reptites from a dimension where Lavos never fell.
Seriously, Trans, tell me you're joking. The Dragonians were the descendants of the Reptites from a dimension where Lavos never fell.
yeah but didn't porre mostly stay out of El Nido untill the Dragoons got Backstabbed by Lynx?
If I remember correctly the Viper clan and the dragoons were descendants of the original explorer's of El Nido from 920, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Dragonians also settled in the area (El Nido), having survived the war with Chronopolis; they began creating Elements and other establishments.
And what about Lynx, I don't remember correctly but couldn't he help.
Back to actual discussion, what does it matter what type of weapon Dalton had. Remember he has Golems also (which we still know very little about, he may be out or he may create them), I doubt any Gaurdrian solider could even strike a Golem...
The only reason they won is because Dalton is actually a strong, powerful, and strategic military leader.
Oh, come on, Trans, he didn't earn his position in Zeal for a talent he didn't have. You would need strategy as well as power and strength to win a battle.
I think there was evidence that Porre was already going towards becoming a military state...I think Dalton was more just the nudge they needed to gain the confidence to overthrow Guardia.
I can't help thinking of him as the idiot he was portrayed to be in Chrono Trigger.
Chrono Trigger DS established Dalton as a man out of time. So who knows what he's been up to since then or for how long. His knowledge of magic, technology, and military strategy could have vastly increased during his travels through time. Sure he could still be the bumbling power hungry buffoon, or he could be a demi-god. Who knows how much experience he gained since his "downfall" in Zeal.I want a new game with Dalton as the antagonist.
I personally see him as some mastermind (albeit a still somewhat buffoonish mastermind) behind the scenes trying to ochestrate events through time for his benefit. He already knows more than he should. How does he know Crono and co are from Guardia? How does he know what Guardia is? How does he know about Porre? How does he know Porre has the potential to become a military power? I see him traveling across time behind the scenes, gaining the knowledge and advantage he needs to gain revenge and power.
If a new game is made, I predict that will probably be true. At least as one of the antagonists if not the main one.
I want a new game with Dalton as the antagonist.
Perfect. It fits his clumsy, slighty goofy (but legitimate) threat level.I want a new game with Dalton as the antagonist.
I'd like this too, but I don't think Dalton should be the main threat. At first he should be, but through the course of the game you learn that his mucking with the timestream caused some other wordly threat.
The only reason they won is because Dalton is actually a strong, powerful, and strategic military leader.
Prove it. I'll give you that he eventually got strong & powerful during his time in the Vortex, but strategic...?? I don't see any evidence of that.
The only reason they won is because Dalton is actually a strong, powerful, and strategic military leader.
Prove it. I'll give you that he eventually got strong & powerful during his time in the Vortex, but strategic...?? I don't see any evidence of that.
Your saying that there is no way that their were other countries other than Zeal and the Earthbound before Crono and Co. showed up? I always wondered what the rise of Zeal was, and assumed it was how a buffoon like Dalton could get in that rank. Unless he was born into it, which seems unlikely. Zeal is portrayed as an evolved kingdom. He at least had to have studied war to make it into that position, and it's unlikely that Gaurdia knew of any of the Zealian tactics.
Chrono Trigger DS established Dalton as a man out of time. So who knows what he's been up to since then or for how long. His knowledge of magic, technology, and military strategy could have vastly increased during his travels through time. Sure he could still be the bumbling power hungry buffoon, or he could be a demi-god. Who knows how much experience he gained since his "downfall" in Zeal.I want a new game with Dalton as the antagonist.
I personally see him as some mastermind (albeit a still somewhat buffoonish mastermind) behind the scenes trying to ochestrate events through time for his benefit. He already knows more than he should. How does he know Crono and co are from Guardia? How does he know what Guardia is? How does he know about Porre? How does he know Porre has the potential to become a military power? I see him traveling across time behind the scenes, gaining the knowledge and advantage he needs to gain revenge and power.
I like the idea of Dalton raising a Lavos spawn or genetically engineering it with Zealian technology. Either that or he extracts some similar form of DNA from the discarded Lavos spawn shell still sitting atop Death Peak that the party used to climb the mountain and revive Crono.
Did the Frozen Flame still exist in the Ideal Timeline at the end of Cross?
Did the Frozen Flame still exist in the Ideal Timeline at the end of Cross?
We can only guess. The only thing we know about it is that Serge survived Lynx's attack and Leena is from Home World.
And, also, what exactly was Dalton's "rank"? Are we ever told he's a military general of some kind? Or is he just the Queen's lapdog that he appears to be?
In a place where the only position of power has no enemies, and yet decides to have an army even for defensive purposes, the ranks had to be determined somehow.
While I disagree that there were other kingdoms with magic where Zeal had to battle with, I do agree, though, that Dalton proved himself to be in the position that he was. Maybe there was combat between themselves, in which Dalton won and was given his rank, but...
That's what I think.
We can only guess. The only thing we know about it is that Serge survived Lynx's attack and Leena is from Home World.
Maybe not all of Arni. What really determines what version of anything turns into the ideal one?
And, also, what exactly was Dalton's "rank"? Are we ever told he's a military general of some kind? Or is he just the Queen's lapdog that he appears to be?
Well, if you read the encyclopedia of the site you moderate to a ridiculous amount you would already know. But I suppose I will look it up for you.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Dalton.html
He was a military leader, and come on no one would actually use "WHAT'S THAT!?" to trick someone, so it was totally unexpected and a perfect example. Also Dalton is experienced in machinery. He builds the Ocean Palace and the Black Bird. But it's not like it matters he didn't need to build weaponry, he is strong enough.
And, also, what exactly was Dalton's "rank"? Are we ever told he's a military general of some kind? Or is he just the Queen's lapdog that he appears to be?
Well, if you read the encyclopedia of the site you moderate to a ridiculous amount you would already know. But I suppose I will look it up for you.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Dalton.html
He was a military leader, and come on no one would actually use "WHAT'S THAT!?" to trick someone, so it was totally unexpected and a perfect example. Also Dalton is experienced in machinery. He builds the Ocean Palace and the Black Bird. But it's not like it matters he didn't need to build weaponry, he is strong enough.
I'll just throw this out there.. Supposedly Serge loose(or will) all of his memories and so do all of his companions. I'd certainly be asking questions after waking up on a beach, feeling much stronger than the day before, because Serge's physique must have improved from the adventure, as well as having my favorite weapon all of a sudden having a rainbow look or looking very fancy and much deadlier than the Sea Swallow... In fact, that's another question that is raised, but not that important, what on earth happens to those 3 dream dorks, Masa, Mune & Doreen after the split dimensions are unified?
Is getting the Mastermune canon?
That doesn't say that he's a military leader...It really just says he's a security guard. And if you think that trick is an example of a strategic military mind...You are wrong.
Actually, the Masamune becoming demonic will happen since it turned that way before the split.
The fact that Grobyc was constructed in 994A.D. leads me to believe Porre was already girding itself for war long before Dalton's arrival anyway.
I assume the fate of most everything else post-merge: Unknown.
Since it is, then they would stay as Mastermune in the ideal time line, and would be with Serge as he wakes up on the beach. There, question solved.
And, also, what exactly was Dalton's "rank"? Are we ever told he's a military general of some kind? Or is he just the Queen's lapdog that he appears to be?
Well, if you read the encyclopedia of the site you moderate to a ridiculous amount you would already know. But I suppose I will look it up for you.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Dalton.html
He was a military leader, and come on no one would actually use "WHAT'S THAT!?" to trick someone, so it was totally unexpected and a perfect example. Also Dalton is experienced in machinery. He builds the Ocean Palace and the Black Bird. But it's not like it matters he didn't need to build weaponry, he is strong enough.
Dalton did not build the Ocean Palace or the Blackbird. The Blackbird is referred to in Zeal as 'Belthasar's masterpiece'. The Ocean Palace is attributed to Belthasar as well.
Dalton may or may not have earned his position from a military standpoint, but there is no basis from the games to believe he had any mechanical skills. The only point that could be brought up is when he had his minions modify the epoch, but at least to me in game it seemed obvious he was just observing his henchmen doing the work.
Game Information
Chrono Trigger
Full Name: Sir Dalton
Age: Indeterminate, young man to mid-thirties
Species: Human
Home Time: 12000 B.C.
Home Area: Zeal
Dalton is the ambitious and egotistical antagonist of the world of Zeal. He is the commander of Zeal's security forces (known as the Dalton Corps) and is an aide to Queen Zeal. The name "Dalton Corps" was omitted from the English translation of the game. He is a ruthless and maniacal foe who craves power and has little regard for human life. Like Kefka in Final Fantasy 6 (although not quite as crazy), Dalton delights in taunting and torturing his enemies, and gets involved in comical situations in which he's usually the butt of the joke. While the exact details of his rise to power are unknown, he is a cruel commander to his underlings, ridiculing them and undercompensating them for service. Queen Zeal placed Dalton in charge of the Ocean Palace's construction after Belthasar's disappearance in the Keystone Timelines; he used slave labor from the Earthbound ones. The Prophet later edged him out of this position, placing him in a typically bad mood. He soon diverted his attention to the Blackbird, as he was now in charge of its security. His second encounter with Crono came in Zeal Palace, where he first demonstrated his close ties to a group of Golems whom he summoned to fight his battles for him (he is a magic innate, despite not wanting to soil his hands in battle himself).
He later met the party again in Algetty, where he kidnapped Schala after the party rescued Melchior from Mt. Woe. He took her to the Ocean Palace (where he was to serve guard duty), threatening to kill her if the party pursued. Soon feeling Lavos's energy, he decided to flee the palace for fear of his life (in the Lavos Timeline, he presumably stayed behind and perished in the Ocean Palace Incident). After the Fall of Zeal, he arrived in the Blackbird and declared himself king of Last Village and the other survivors. He confronted the party, underhandedly distracting them by yelling "what's that?!" before knocking them out. He then kidnapped the heroes of time, who had to break out of the airplane unassisted. While they escaped, Dalton interred the Epoch and commissioned the building of wings and lasers, giving it the title of his airthrone -- the Aero-Dalton Imperial. Ownership was returned to the party after he accidentally fell into a portal he was using to summon Golems while riding the machine.
Not on to my opinions. From a military basis during the time of Zeal Dalton was a marvel. His golems are bosslevel in the game, which would rip any normal Zealian citizen apart. The energy balls he cast were enough to knock the party and Melchior back, which I assume means they were quite potent. From these facts we can decide his aid, as well as knowledge of Zealian Magics, very well helped the Porre War Machine.
The issue I, as well as other people, have with Dalton that those who support him seem to be unable to fathom is his personality. He is very overconfident, self-involved, and constantly underestimates his enemies. In the end he fell through one of his own golem portals, which seemed rather dimwitted. He just honestly does not seem like a good leader. And the things his minions said about him seem to corroborate these facts.
I'm also sure that he wouldn't perfectly fallow Belthazar's plans.
I seriously doubt that could be the only reason. Zeal is an intelligent kingdom. They only had a queen who was drunk with power. Another point where did those golems come from. Who says that a mage can't defeat them. They were quite easy to me. As long as you used lightning on them both they don't hurt all that bad.
Completely unimportant. You seem think that his personality is the most important thing. Determination is a powerful feeling. He DESPISES the Chrono Team! Your saying that his buffoonery is so ridiculous that he couldn't win. I think that is a total underestimation. And remember Kato always does what you least expect.
Oh, and military is security, not just striking other countries. Or at least in the U.S.A. it's not defined as just striking other countries.
Question 2: There are two Maguses (Magi?), one I'll call Present Magus (the one in the party) and another I'll call Future Magus. What is the origin of Future Magus? How did he make it into Time's Eclipse?
Whether that is the future from which you have come, I do not know.
This is an odd question, Perhaps The CT team did not actually Kill Lavos when they assaulted him. Conceivably a highly evolved Being Such as lavos could have many redundant survival systems of which in game we only saw 3 of, Perhaps that when the 3rd form was wounded Lavos using its control over time enacted an emergency Time Jump to escape his attackers and went beyond time to escape his time traveling attackers, there is found Schala and attempted to use her DNA to restore its Cores, absorbing bits of her Personality with it as she allowed Lavos to integrate her into its Body, taking The Normally DNA collecting Lavos into Temporal Destruction Mode.
Question 2: There are two Maguses (Magi?), one I'll call Present Magus (the one in the party) and another I'll call Future Magus. What is the origin of Future Magus? How did he make it into Time's Eclipse?
To call him Future Magus would contradict the dialogue. He is a Magus from an alternate-dimension, whether he's from the future or not is irrelevant.
I'm pretty sure that in the Treasure description it says that Lucca "made it", but I may be wrong.
The one Kid had on her when she came to the Present as a baby was Schala's Pendant - made of dreamstone.
I don't know what the wooden one is supposed to be - but it can't be from Schala - wood doesn't interact with the Mammon Machine.
Chrono Cross
A small, star-colored talisman.
The Astral Amulet is an enigmatic pouch with a wooden pendant inside carried by Kid. Its origins and nature are unclear; the pendant was probably created by Lucca soon after Kid came to live with her.
You saying the Astral Amulet is the same thing she gave to Magus? Isn't that metallic thing on his waist supposed to be it?
So I was talking about Kid's necklace(the purple one), it looks like the one hold in Model Randi's hand in the ending CG.
@ utunnels - I think that Kid's purple necklace is supposed to represent Schala's necklace for some reason, even though it looks completely different from how it looked in the Chrono Trigger ending FMV. This is perhaps reinforced by the concept that the person in the ending FMV for Cross is supposed to represent a "real world Schala" who is holding the necklace. Either that or she just keeps Schala's necklace hidden on her somewhere in her scantily clad outfit.Yeah, that's what I mean. It is strange they look completely different...
Would THIS also be similar to what you speak of?I don't think so, the shape is different.
I don't think so, the shape is different.
One object is clearly a bag. I've always found it to be readily apparent that the blue amulet is in the bag.Quote from: chrono eric@ utunnels - I think that Kid's purple necklace is supposed to represent Schala's necklace for some reason, even though it looks completely different from how it looked in the Chrono Trigger ending FMV. This is perhaps reinforced by the concept that the person in the ending FMV for Cross is supposed to represent a "real world Schala" who is holding the necklace. Either that or she just keeps Schala's necklace hidden on her somewhere in her scantily clad outfit.Yeah, that's what I mean. It is strange they look completely different...
Perhaps when the design is confirmed, CT 99's CG had not been made at all.
Perhaps when the design is confirmed, CT 99's CG had not been made at all.
Would THIS also be similar to what you speak of?
I've always found it to be readily apparent that the blue amulet is in the bag.
Quote from: ShadowWould THIS also be similar to what you speak of?
No, it's not. I don't know if you've beaten Cross yet but this isn't much of a spoiler anyways - in the ending FMV there is a girl holding Kid's pendant, the purple one from around her neck, which is clearly Schala's pendant.
Quote from: ShadowWould THIS also be similar to what you speak of?
No, it's not. I don't know if you've beaten Cross yet but this isn't much of a spoiler anyways - in the ending FMV there is a girl holding Kid's pendant, the purple one from around her neck, which is clearly Schala's pendant.
You must have pictures to prove your statements.
You must have pictures to prove your statements.
How does Cross reference Schala's pendant? If it uses the word "pendant", then it cannot be the purple thing around Kid's neck. That's a necklace - they are completely different. It would be like saying "wristband" in reference to a bracelet.
The only way the purple necklace could be Schala's pendant is if CC calls it "schala's necklace" or something.
Yes, Serge...
The sound of your crying
touched the heart of
Princess Schala...
Before the destructive mind-
set could become dominant,
she cloned herself and sent
her copy into this dimension.
Schala left her baby
daughter-clone with her
ancient pendant, possessing
magical powers.
This was to safeguard her
daughter-clone in life-and-
death situations.
The pendant would rewind
time a little, sending her
daughter-clone into a safer
point in the immediate past.
Hey, I agreed with you, no need to call me lazy.
Hey, I agreed with you, no need to call me lazy.
Chill, I was just joking :D
Well Eske, I say it is splitting hairs. Look at the original form of the pendant in Trigger - if you were to ask ten people what they would call that object, how many do you think would say "it's a pendant" or "it's a necklace"? The two words are (almost) interchangeable, at least to the degree that you could be confused by them unlike comparing say - apples and oranges :D.
Now say you are drawing out the concept art for Cross way back when (before the new CT FMV's were created) and you wanted to represent Schala's pendant/necklace. How would you do it? The sprite in CT leaves the design open to huge interpretation.
Then again, they changed Schala's hair color - gotta love the "to hell with consistency" mentality.
Well Eske, I say it is splitting hairs. Look at the original form of the pendant in Trigger - if you were to ask ten people what they would call that object, how many do you think would say "it's a pendant" or "it's a necklace"? The two words are (almost) interchangeable, at least to the degree that you could be confused by them unlike comparing say - apples and oranges :D.
Now say you are drawing out the concept art for Cross way back when (before the new CT FMV's were created) and you wanted to represent Schala's pendant/necklace. How would you do it? The sprite in CT leaves the design open to huge interpretation.
But the sprite in CT leaves no room for confusion. It is a rope/chain with something round dangling at the end. It is actually a pendant. For a random person on the street to point out Schala's pendant as a necklace is understandable. "Necklace" has become a generic term for such jewelry. But a pendant is a more specific type of "necklace", I doubt that a woman would brag to others "yea my husband got me this gold pendant for xmas" when it is clearly a necklace or choker - to me that sounds... awkward. Perhaps a woman's perspective could help... where is teaflower lol But yea, calling a pendant a necklace, probably commonish, but calling a necklace a pendant - hmmm strange.
Then again, they changed Schala's hair color - gotta love the "to hell with consistency" mentality.
maybe :D
I know it's hard to keep up when people aren't quoting everything for you and the relevance of one post to another is separated by a whole two other posts, but I believe in you, Shadow! YOU CAN DO IT!!~V_Translanka
If the necklace is not Schala's pendant, it will be inseresting... why could they remove such an important item?
The only thing that was "changed" about the Hero's Medal was the Rare Item art and I now think that's supposed to be some kind of decorative case of some kind since during battle he uses the original art version of the Medal.
Pendent
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pendant&db=luna (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pendant&db=luna)
Necklace
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/necklace
Also even before the re-release there was a definite design for the Pendent. There were sprites and art Akira Toriama had done before the re-release. The argument you want to make is the Hero's Medal. They changed its design, but at the same time it's battle sprite (should probably be referred to as a polygon but no time to changed the worlds terminology) is the Toriama art. (another example of the art already being released before Cross)
You only see it in battle and in the rare item art. That was a really eager attack on my post. I know I've been pretty doushy towards you, but at least look at the post please. Let's forget the pendent for right now because we really have no proof other than the girl holds it in the FMV. And let's go to the start of this tangent:
How did Amnesia Magus get to Time's Eclipse?
I didn't mean it to sound like an attack...Though I think I did misread what you said, I mainly just wanted to point out what I thought of the rare item picture of the CC Hero's Medal...y-you've been douchey towards me?
I know it's hard to keep up when people aren't quoting everything for you and the relevance of one post to another is separated by a whole two other posts, but I believe in you, Shadow! YOU CAN DO IT!!
Oh wait, I just thought of something. Magus wouldn't have to kill himself because he's already been killed by Lavos (or w/e happened to him originally in the K-1 timeline)...So all he'd need is a Time Egg and/or the bucket...
Voice: Here, Lavos is no more.
This is the future in which we defeated him.
I know it's hard to keep up when people aren't quoting everything for you and the relevance of one post to another is separated by a whole two other posts, but I believe in you, Shadow! YOU CAN DO IT!!
You do realize MY alleged penchant for making pointless posts is becoming true in YOUR behavior, right? In this case, it's a pointless add-on. A simple explanation as to why you were changing the subject would have sufficed. I know you're an ass sometimes, but ya gotta try to be a nice guy, and I believe in you on that, Trans. YOU CAN DO IT!!
[/offtopic]
Oh wait, I just thought of something. Magus wouldn't have to kill himself because he's already been killed by Lavos (or w/e happened to him originally in the K-1 timeline)...So all he'd need is a Time Egg and/or the bucket...
The only time in which Lavos killed Magus was in the castle during the Lavos Timeline. K-1 is CT changes + Another World events in Cross leading up to 1020 A.D. K-2 is CT changes + Home World events in Cross.
Quote from: CTDS Script (English version)Voice: Here, Lavos is no more.
This is the future in which we defeated him.
But then that's based on an assumption. So I ask: What the hell was your point in that post?
Nope, 12000BC, post Lavos's rising was covered mostly in water, so the effects of his eruption cannot be seen but in 2300AD we see that ground zero became Death Peak. That was only 301 years later. A similar mountain would exist in 1000AD, 400 years after a proposed rising.
[Belthasar]
Lavos disappeared briefly when he
was summoned away by a mighty
wizard who lived in Guardia, in the
year 600.
The time is Kingdom Year 600.
Magus summons it, and it briefly appears.
Nope, 12000BC, post Lavos's rising was covered mostly in water, so the effects of his eruption cannot be seen but in 2300AD we see that ground zero became Death Peak. That was only 301 years later. A similar mountain would exist in 1000AD, 400 years after a proposed rising.
There is no proof that an eruption/rising creates a mountain.
Fair enough. There is no evidence suggesting that Lavos "exits" his pocket dimension because that would hinge on the pocket dimension existing in the first place. So that portion of my argument is unnecessary.
Well, does he mean the Future or the New Future? I'm assuming he means the changed Timeline.
Well, does he mean the Future or the New Future? I'm assuming he means the changed Timeline.
New future. Since we can only access TE from New Game+ or an old save, it is most likely the Magus from our original playthrough, sometime in the near future (as many have said before).
Or he is just probably aware that it is extremely unlikely that the Crono team he encounters is the one he once knew.
Oh wait, I just thought of something. Magus wouldn't have to kill himself because he's already been killed by Lavos (or w/e happened to him originally in the K-1 timeline)...So all he'd need is a Time Egg and/or the bucket...
The only time in which Lavos killed Magus was in the castle during the Lavos Timeline. K-1 is CT changes + Another World events in Cross leading up to 1020 A.D. K-2 is CT changes + Home World events in Cross.
No, the Lavos timeline is K-1 unless I'm mistaken. Home & Another World are dimensional differences, not separate timelines.
Nope, 12000BC, post Lavos's rising was covered mostly in water, so the effects of his eruption cannot be seen but in 2300AD we see that ground zero became Death Peak. That was only 301 years later. A similar mountain would exist in 1000AD, 400 years after a proposed rising.
There is no proof that an eruption/rising creates a mountain.
Fair enough. There is no evidence suggesting that Lavos "exits" his pocket dimension because that would hinge on the pocket dimension existing in the first place. So that portion of my argument is unnecessary.
Very well, then, explain the weird blue place you fight him in. It's even seen in the FMV of Crono's death.
Very well, then, explain the weird blue place you fight him in. It's even seen in the FMV of Crono's death.
When he retreats far into the shell, we see the ground visible beneath it. (defeat shell, then return to 1999 version)
Meh, that was for Chap to do, but Eske is the most convincing.When he retreats far into the shell, we see the ground visible beneath it. (defeat shell, then return to 1999 version)
I always wondered about that. I figure now maybe they were trying not to cut you off from the Gate if you got second thoughts after choosing "Fight!" but before you actually went in.
That reminds me. They specify the days of events, like the dates in Lucca's diary, and the date of Toma's death, yet they don't date the Day Of Lavos, only that it took place at 1:24 PM.
what about Magus's speech before arriving in the forest (which I still doubt to be the Gaurdian Forest)?
Neuralyzer, Eric, and it is indeed possible.
Question is, where'd he get it?
I didn't know if he was joking about Will Smith,- Are you f***ing serious? The first mention of that name should give you the big red flag JOKE. Seriously dude, You need to lighten up and stop taking everything seriously.
I'm pretty sure that in the Treasure description it says that Lucca "made it", but I may be wrong.
[Lucca]
That's the amulet Kid
always had so dear to her
heart!
If you look carefully you'll
see that the design on the
cloth bag is the ancient
kingdom's royal crest.
Inside the bag is a
wooden pendant.
I assume my little sister
had it with her, or picked
it up later. on the night
my house was razed.
I bet she carefully kept
it with her, always...
I'm sure it has a lot of
memories attatched to it!
+---------------+
| text a8h 168 |
+---------------+
それは、キッドが
大切にしてるお守りね。{delay 1e}
袋の模樣は、古代の紋章よ。{next page}
なかには、木でつくられた
ペンダントが入ってるゎ。{delay 1e}
私の家が襲ゎれた夜に、
ひろったらしいけど……。{next page}
あの子、それをずっと、
大切に持ってたのね……。{delay 1e}
きっと、いろんな想いが
こめられてるんだゎ……。{end}
Though, to be fair, there might not actually be a difference between Reptites and Dragonians. Utunnels discovered that there is no consistent naming methodology in the game (Reptites and Dragonians appear to be closer to Reptile-Men and Dragon-Men, the same sort of nomenclature applied to mystics and other things).
[Computer]And here's another quote:
~
~
~~ -- HUMANS & REPTITES -- ~~
~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
65 million years ago, the
Reptites who evolved from
reptiles had developed their
own unique civilization...
This was long before the
ancestors of humans, who
evolved from primates, had
developed their civilization.
Excavations carried out on the
central continent of Zenan have
revealed that the Reptites
already had advanced architectural
skills in the prehistoric era.
But the fall of Lavos to the
planet, and the resulting
Ice Age this brought about,
rang the death knell for the
Reptites and their civilization.
After that the Reptites
slowly disappeared from
the stage of history.
However, in the distant past
humans could have been defeated
in the contest of evolution,
and the Reptites could have
continued to develop...
It is not unthinkable that
such a time line could exist
in other dimensions.
Everything is purely a
problem of possibilities,
and the world is only
stabilized by the viewpoint
of the one who observes it.
[Dragonian Record]
All life on this planet
was born in the sea.
The life-forms softly
slumbered within the
womb of our mother sea...
Until eventually they
developed free will and
were able to swim about
the ocean freely.
Then there came those that,
not satisfied with life in the
water, looked up from the ocean
floor towards the blue skies and
dreamt of the feel of the land.
Aeons passed before their
preposterous dream became
a reality, and they rose up
from the seas onto the earth.
The land became full of
all kinds of creatures.
Among these, the dragon lizards
and the more evolved Reptites
thought they would reign over
the earth forever.
Yup.
But the point being, the nomenclature used in the games is odd. Mystics are generally referred to as a single species, yet there appears to be multiple varieties. While I may well have misunderstood utunnel's research, it appears that mystics are differentiated from normal monsters by just having "man" added onto their names.
In other words, it seems that the words that get translated into English as intelligent species may be closer to races or subgroups in the original language. Just a vague possibility to allow the 600AD Lost Sanctum Reptites to still be in the dragonian dimension. But as that doesn't seem to be working, I'm quite happy to conclude that they must be different places (or non-analogous time periods).
Among these, the dragon lizards
and the more evolved Reptites
thought they would reign over
the earth forever.
.........
Wielding absolute power,
Lavos buried the dinosaurs -
the kings of the land -
in the space of a night.
Is the origin of demi-humans stated in CC?
I don't know how to break
this to you, but...
Lynx was actually your
father, Wazuki!
Drawing closer to the Flame
caused him to become unstable,
and the image of you dying in
terror changed him completely!
Finally, after having his
psyche totally eroded,
he lost his soul and was
easily integrated by FATE...
FATE turned Wazuki into a
biological interface, modelling
him after your worst fear at
the time -- a panther.
Is the origin of demi-humans stated in CC?
Not that I can find.
Given that they seem to be different than mystics (but we've already discussed the difficulty of classifying a mystic) and not present in the original game, it is usually supposed that they are the result of the Time Crash. More than that is wild guess-work (and even that is tame guess work). Its been suggested that they are a cross between dragonians and humans, that they are humans from the dragonian dimension, that they were created by the Frozen Flame, etc, but everything lacks support.
'Tis sad...
The mainland teachings state
that humans and demi-humans
are incompatible species.
Is society moving farther and
farther from living in harmony
with nature?
To consider separate
even though the two
are inseparable...?
This was about a hundred years
ago, before immigrants from the
mainland came to El Nido.
The now extinct Dragonians,
demi-humans, and our ancestors
lived on the main island and not
on the outlying islands.
By pure coincidence, I saw this thread just as I was about to reach that point.
As you approach the end of the corridor, the characters recoil back a step.
Marle: No... all I can see are memories
of the times I spent with Crono.
I can't...I can't go on like this!
It's too much to take.
So, yeah. I guess I'll have to come back later.
{Lucca}: All my memories of {Crono} just
keep flashing by for some reason. Oh, {Crono}!
I can't take this. Can we leave?
{Ayla}: {CronoNick}...
{Ayla} head just think {Crono}.
No can stop!
Oh, no...
{Frog}: I...cannot be here.
All my memories of {Crono} keep rushing back.
It's too much to bear.
Let us go back.
{Robo}: We must go back. My memory banks are
becoming overloaded with memories of {Crono}.
I am afraid I may go haywire at this rate.
Aha, thanks Vehek! I was wondering if it'd be the same in the Japanese versionUnless you think they altered the English script for the US and European releases, how does this show it's the same? Of course, I wouldn't expect Slattery to take liberties like that, but still.
Interesting considering Magus tosses his memories there too.Magus ran out of memory, had to reformat. </stupid>
The other lines for that, from my text dump of the Japanese version:Quote{Lucca}: All my memories of {Crono} just
keep flashing by for some reason. Oh, {Crono}!
I can't take this. Can we leave?
{Ayla}: {CronoNick}...
{Ayla} head just think {Crono}.
No can stop!
Oh, no...
{Frog}: I...cannot be here.
All my memories of {Crono} keep rushing back.
It's too much to bear.
Let us go back.
{Robo}: We must go back. My memory banks are
becoming overloaded with memories of {Crono}.
I am afraid I may go haywire at this rate.
I posted this in the "New Dungeon Maps" thread. Has anyone seen this text in-game?Quoteこのセカイにワタシはヒトリでいい…
アナタはキエなさい！{end}
One of me is all this world needs.
Begone, for all eternity!
{Marle}「…戦うしか、ないのね。
私もここでやられるわけには
いかない！！{end}
{Marle}: I guess...I guess I have to fight you.
I don't want to be gone for all eternity!
---アナタさえいなけレバ…
キエテしまいナサイ！
You are all that stands in the way...
You must die!
(I don't have the complete Japanese line yet)
{Lucca}: So much for getting along...
Looks like we have some irreconcilable differences
to take care of, doesn't it?
Edit: Adjusted formatting to match game.
@ShoeMagus
I agree with your interpretation. Though there's something I still not sure: it is not a contradiction to say Eclipse Magus is post-Trigger Magus and from an alternate dimension, since Magus himself also metions there are infinite worlds.
I think the new ending was influenced by CC: since history is composed by choices, this Magus can be from a 'branch' timeline of post-Trigger.
Guile:
Is this what I have
been searching for
all this time...
No...
Stop it!
I am no such thing.
What good is it...
to possess such
dark power...?
The shades are made up of memories. That's why Guile has this line at the DBT:Quote from: CHRONO FUCKIN CROSSGuile:
Is this what I have
been searching for
all this time...
No...
Stop it!
I am no such thing.
What good is it...
to possess such
dark power...?
(I don't think anyone really wants Magus dead in the plot)
Oh ! Des primates qui se tiennent debout ! Et qui parlent en plus...! Que se passe-t-il ?
Oh! Primates who hold themselves upright! And who even speak! What is going on?
The Dragon's Tear is most likely not the same thing as the Dragon Tear in Chrono Cross. The Dragon Tear was a Dragonian artifact, not merely a Reptite's. Besides, those monsters couldn't get the Dragon Tear as long as the Reptites hid in their homes.
Also, if that is supposed to be the Reptites dimension, then why do they act so damn nice towards humans? According to our information, the Reptite dimension is a dimension where the Reptites won the war against the humans, and Lavos never fell. If they would have been at war with humans previously, they wouldn't act so nicely towards them now, especially not ask them favors, OR give them one of their most cherished artifacts, the Dragon's Tear.
No, I do not think that is the Reptite dimension where Reptites continued to evolve into Dragonians and created Dinopolis. I don't know what it is then, but not that.
And what we've ascertained is that the Amulet =/= Schala's Pendant, and that Lucca did not create the Amulet as the Compendium holds but Kid found it sometime around the orphanage burning, which begs the question - how did Kid survive the original burning of the orphanage since Serge wasn't there to save her? Which relates to your earlier question by further elaborating it - could Amnesiac Magus have saved her?