Author Topic: Magus's Weakness to the Masamune  (Read 22468 times)

DarkGizmo

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2005, 08:24:51 pm »
We know that the Masamune is the "evolution" or the red knife with Lavos energy. When Cyrus attacked Magus for the first time, Magus only purpose was to destroy Lavos, so he knew alot about Lavos and must have some protection agaist Lavos, so Lavos energy in the masamune not only didn't affected much Magus but shattered the sword.

When they went to destroy Magus they restored the Masamune using more Dreamstone, now think about this : If the mammon machine is made of Dreamstone and can absorb Lavos energy, then Dreastone must have some given attribute to absorb Lavos's energy. The red knife was made by Melchior, around 12 000 BC (I think), when Lavos was already on earth.

But the Dreamstone Crono and co. had was BEFORE Lavos coming and since Dreamstone has some attribute that changed when Lavos fell. Which make the Dreamstone that Crono and co. had got more powerful.

Now in 1000 AD magic doesn'tn exist, in 600 AD only mystics used magic (am I right here?) and magic didn't exist in 65 000 000 BC (ayla's time) so magic was certainly somewhat related to Lavos and Magus lived on floating isle and sleeping device all powered by the mammon machine.

Well I think it's pretty clear that (IMO) that the Masamune is a magic-absorbing sword in some way and why it didn't worked when Frog was 1 on 1 agaisnt Magus, may be that there was so much Magic around them (since the magic drained by the Mammon machine that was used for floating isle and stuff is now jsut send into the atmosphere without any purpose).

Glenn's feelings have a high role too in all this

SilentMartyr

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2005, 01:18:02 am »
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
the magical energy of Zeal (the kingdom, not just the queen) came from the Mammon Machine, which took energy from Lavos, right? (i don't remember since it's been a while since i've played CT)

if that's true, then i think the dark energy of Lavos is enough to 'taint'

EDIT: i forgot that this was the Magus thread, so i'll say it now
The masamune was forged from the Dreamstone, which existed before Lavos (the entity's version of the Frozen Flame?), and Magus' power originated from Lavos, so the Masamune (a sword from the entity) could weaken Magus' magic power, which was Lavos'. However, i think that the game mentions or hints at Magus' power's being much stronger than normal Zealians', and grew mainly after being away from the Mammon Machine and Lavos' magic, so it's possible that Frog's using the Masamune to weaken Magus' magic (which is required storyline-wise, right?) could've 'purified' Magus of Lavos' energy, thus making the Masamune not especially effective against Magus when you can fight him again


Bolded: That doesn't make sense, how could Magus's power come from Lavos? Using that logic, the Masamune should have worked on Dalton, or the Queen, which it didn't. Magical power comes from the person themself, they just have to have the ability to use it, and knowledge of its exsistance.

Italics: The red knife was forged by Melchior, using Dreamstone and his dreams. After the red knife went into the Mammon Machine Lavos's power changed the knife into the Masamune. The entity had nothing to do with it.

ZeaLitY

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2006, 01:22:13 am »
Inquiry

Why is the Masamune able to hurt Magus's magical defense?

Theories

Reflexive Power

Andrelvis, razor's edge, V Translanka

The Masamune is said to depend on the user, not its inherent strength as a sword. It also has a spiritually reflexive nature, evident in its corruption of users in Chrono Cross and its enhancement at Cyrus's grave. When Frog battled Magus, his spirit and many feelings sufficiently fortified it to do extra damage, as he was very motivated. The same mindset allowed Frog to split the Magic Cave with the empowered blade. Frog doesn't hate Lavos and other monsters; he rationally knows that Lavos will destroy the world and must be destroyed before he does so, but there is no personal hatred. Whereas, with Magus there is. Magus killed Frog's best friend. So, there's a huge emotional difference between fighting the two...And the Masamune is based on people's emotions and feelings, not their convictions. As dream beings, Masa and Mune are enriched by the potent desire and will of their wielder.

Magus: W.. what have you done to the Masamune...?

~

Masa: Quite. I guess it means that a Hero's power comes from within.
Mune: Mucha metaphysical, man.
Masa: Like, MIND over matter, Mune!
Frog: My... mind?

Magus seems to be quite shocked that the Masamune is hurting him so. The Masamune didn't seem to help Cyrus and Glenn 10 years earlier when Cyrus was killed. This implies that the Masamune was powered by Frog's will, otherwise it would have worked when wielded by Cyrus. This could be an example of the Dreamstone being utilized in a way not Lavos-related, since it was Frog's dream to defeat Magus and thus avenge Cyrus.

The Hero's Medal (and later, the Shield and Prop Sword in Chrono Cross) also seem to grant psychosomatic powers (unless Cyrus actually imbues the wearer with spiritual fortitude). This means that in simply wearing and wielding these weapons, the user is much more confident and sober in battle.

This theory fails somewhat to take into account the legend surrounding the sword (that only it can defeat Magus), but given the blade's reflexive nature as evidenced in Chrono Cross, this may only be circumstancial.

Dreamstone / Magic Drain

V Translanka

Given Dreamstone's natural ability to conduct Lavos, and Magus's ability to up his magic defense in that battle, perhaps Magus was drawing on Lavos's emanations (who was near due to the summon ritual) to raise his defense, an effect diminished by the Masamune.

An adjunct of this theory proposes that the Masamune, due to its Dreamstone form, can naturally diminish all types of magic energy. This is evidenced in the Masamune II's description, "inflicts 200% damage to all magic enemies." Curiously enough, the sword doesn't actually do this in-game. It also should have a huge effect on Queen Zeal and Lavos, but nothing of the sort is observed.

Magus is obviously not made of Dreamstone, however, so this may be somewhat of a stretch. A third aspect of this theory suggests that Magus's amulet, given to him by Schala, is in fact made of Dreamstone, and this is the tool by which his power is drained.

Masa & Mune

SilentMartyr

The best theory I can throw together is that Masa and Mune know that Magus is Janus, and they want him to not fight Lavos, knowing completely that he would get crushed if he fought Lavos by himself. But that would also assume that they know that he wouldn't get killed in the spar and that eventually he would team up with the right people to fight Lavos. Remeber that thier purpose is basically, to destroy Lavos.

Misconceptions

The Masamune doesn't simply do

~

Inquiry

Why does the Masamune absorb energy from the Mammon Machine?

Theories

Dreamstone Charge

razor's edge, V Translanka

Think of it like this: You take two car batteries, one fully charged and one much less charged. You hook them up to each other and the fully charged one will, over time, lose power to the less charged one, until they both contain the same amount of energy. I think this is a great comparison, since both the Masamune and the Mammon Machine are made of Dreamstone. It's a simple case of equilibrium. Magus is obviously not made of Dreamstone, hence, the Masamune drains his energy for a completely different reason.

~

Inquiry

How did the Masamune become corrupted after Chrono Trigger?

Theories

Knightly Requirement

Faulce, ZeaLitY

Masa and Mune state that until 1020 A.D., they were asleep within the sword. In addition to this, they state at the Denadoro Mts. that only the strong of will can wield the blade. Perhaps, due to their sleeping, people with inferior moral fortitude and strength (contrast to Cyrus or Frog) used the sword, the result being its corruption. Frog had the necessary mettle to use the sword to slay Magus with soberness and purpose, while Radius and the others perhaps were overcome with ambition and could not restrain their desires to use the sword for selfish purposes. This does not take into account the apparent power of the evil Masamune to outwardly corrupt the wielder, however.

Reflexive Sleep

This draws on the Reflexive Power theory outlined at [[Masamune (Reaction to Magus)]]. Masa and Mune state that until 1020 A.D., they were asleep within the sword; the battle with Dario eventually woke them up. Now, considering that the Masamune is capable of expressing the will of its bearer and also absorbing Lavos energy (and perhaps other types by extension), perhaps the Masamune was stolen during the Fall of Guardia and used to commit horrible deeds. This imbued it with a negative energy that remained and also influenced the wielders of the blade from that point on. After all, the Masamune is seen in its original form stained with blood in 1005 A.D. in the PSX cutscene, and is grabbed by the man who slayed the last protector of Guardia. Another idea is that Frog fell to a negative fate after 600 A.D., and that the negative sentiments were etched into the sword in this manner.

Energy Block

Masa and Mune state that until 1020 A.D., they were asleep within the sword. Also, Dreamstone conducts the energy of Lavos. Perhaps while the Masamune existed, Masa and Mune consciously protected it from being negatively influenced by Lavos's energy (note that Lavos energy doesn't necessarily have any outwardly negative consequences). After Lavos was defeated, they went to sleep, feeling their job was done. However, they did not know about the Time Devourer, whose emanations were able to corrupt the blade. However, this theory requires that the Time Devourer still produced emanations comparable to Lavos's energy, and that these emanations could cross the boundary from the Darkness Beyond Time to the outside world.

AuraTwilight

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2006, 07:50:05 pm »
As to the Masamune's corruption, I can add another theory to that. First off, let's remember that the Chrono series is Japanese in origin. Being of Japanese descent, I can verify that in Japan, there is a theme about purity and keeping things pure to ward off evil. This applies to things like swords. In the Fuedal Era, it was believed that if you didn't clean blood off your sword, the sword would drink the blood and become demonic and evil. This could've been what happened to the Masamune, since it was soaked in blood in the PSX ending.

Erindar

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #124 on: March 16, 2006, 08:27:18 am »
Okay here is my theory on the subject.  The Masamune was orignially the red knife.  It absorbed Lavos's energy in the mammon machine because they were both made of dreamstone and became the masamune.  Then it was stored on Denadoro mountain where people came to know it as a powerful sword.  Then Magus comes and people become afraid of his power.  They beleive that the power of the Masamune can stop him even though its really not the sword but the user.  Then when frog finally gets the masamune its not the swords power but the power and resolve of frog to have vengence for Cyrus's death that allows the Masamune to hurt Magus.  This explains all the problems.  People try and say that its this huge complex theory when most likely (IMO) the legend developed because people heard that the Masamune was powerful, not knowing that it's not the sword but the user.  They just got lucky and the user happened to be frog.

sssssz

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #125 on: March 16, 2006, 07:36:56 pm »
Erm.

The question started from the fact that Masamune decreases Magus' magic defence and heals Frog when used against the Mammon Machine. It's Just A Legend doesn't explain that. :?

Magus22

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #126 on: March 16, 2006, 07:43:47 pm »
i am more concerned with the whereabouts of how it got there . . . who do you think may hav placed it there? and why that mountain?

these questions bring up a lot of theories and what not, it's cool

i think Magus's defense decrease because yes, since whenever Schala used her powers to boost the mammon machine at the very end of the ocean Palalce disaster, she is always weakened

my question: is Magus the same blood line as Schala?

if so, then perhaps the energy drain of the material used in the Masamune and Mammon machine, which had an effect on Schala making her weak . . . also does the same to Magus

AuraTwilight

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #127 on: March 16, 2006, 08:15:27 pm »
Um, Magus is Schala's BROTHER.

and Schala is weakened when she uses her power because of the stress. The series tries to portray her as physically frail to fit the archetype of the Pure Maiden.

As for why Masamune is on that mountain in particular? Probably where it ended up when Zeal went A Splode.

Magus22

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #128 on: March 16, 2006, 10:57:58 pm »
i remember something in CT about Janus's step sister so that kinda threw me off for a sec

forgot

Schala and Magus are obviously related, yes

ChronoMagus

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2006, 12:49:18 am »
That was a mistranslation... they are blood relatives.

Burning Zeppelin

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #130 on: March 17, 2006, 03:44:26 am »
Quote from: Magus22
i remember something in CT about Janus's step sister so that kinda threw me off for a sec

forgot

Schala and Magus are obviously related, yes

Maybe they meant Half Sister.

Erindar

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2006, 06:17:19 am »
it probably landed there and that just became sort of a "holy spot" where the masamune was.

Namara

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #132 on: March 17, 2006, 10:23:14 am »
If you remember the scene where Cyrus was killed, it was right outside the cave where Crono and company found the piece of the Masamune.  The masamune is on top of the mountain because that is where the sword was broken when Cyrus died.

The masamune was created when the red knife was flung into the Mammon Machine.  What if Magus is weakened by the Masamune because of its connection with the Mammon Machine?  If Schala was able to be so affected with interacting with the Mammon Machine, why shouldn't her little brother also be affected by a blade inadvertantly created by the same machine?

Magus22

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #133 on: March 17, 2006, 04:53:25 pm »
exactly

i believe we are all beating a dead horse now

i think every1 has been tryin to say something like that :)

Zaperking

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #134 on: March 17, 2006, 06:46:20 pm »
Well,...

Schala is the arbiter, and that is her only connection with the Mammon Machine itself. The Mammon Machine is simply the device that extracts the energy from the Frozen Flame, and only Schala can awaken it so that's why she has to be around it.

Now, Magus' weakness wouldn't be connected totally to the Mammon Machine, but more to the thing that it's made of. Dreamstone. Dreamstone absorbs and amplifies magic energy out, so if each hit to Magus drained his energy a bit, that would kind of make sence.