Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback  (Read 42597 times)

Agent 12

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2006, 04:27:16 am »
THe golem in Dalton's dungeon won't "kill you" just send you back to start, there's an order to the door's to get to the end of the dungeon.

--jp

lawman

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2006, 06:12:31 am »
I was going to reply on GameFAQs, but I kept going over the rate limit.  >_<

I'm going to cover things that are moreso personal opinion about the game than small glitches, and try to only add things that haven't been spoken of.

- I think the dialogue's a little dry, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the main characters.  It feels like one person speaking from all these different viewpoints.  This is especially prevalent in the main heros themselves.  Magus is actually handled well, and Crono's as mute as he ever was, but Lucca is missing a bit of her fun arrogance and intelligent charm.  Glenn seems to be a wise-ass, which to me doesn't even fit Glenn, and... I just don't like how Belthasar was handled.

- How is Glenn not Frog?  Magus is still alive, and Frog shouldn't have reverted... unless Magus simply called off the spell, which I felt he should have done in Chrono Trigger anyway.

- I like the dungeon that leads to Dalton, and outside of the riddle (which I felt was out of place, if only because it felt similar to how Dalton's dungeon was handled), I felt Singing Mountain was fine.  However, I think the enemies could be more creatively handled.  Most just uncreatively appear on screen and attack, instead of giving you an opportunity to avoid them.

Further, the way the enemies just spontaneously appeared, from nothingness, in the hallway before the Epoch was rather disappointing.  There were four pillars in the area when the Imps appeared... I think it'd have been more interesting to have them jump out from behind those pillars.

- Dalton's still his good ol' mix of humorous and psychotic, but I think more humor was needed.  For example, when you drink the Soup in 1999, the dialogue appears as 'HP/MP restored, and you're NOT hungry!', referring to the Entertron bit in CT.  I think something more like 'HP/MP restored... but you're bloated from overeating', accompanied by an appropriate pose (I think even the 'hunger' pose from CT would have worked) would have been more humorous.  Keep the pickle man though... better yet, find a way to include him in 600 AD.  :D

- WHERE'S FROG!?  He's my favorite CT character, and that he wasn't playable in the demo was disappointing.  It's only a demo though, so I'm sure that can be worked out.  And playing as him in GLENN form would rock.  :)

- I feel (and again, this is merely personal opinion) that the story tries too hard to be deep.  The original CT story, in spite of having its twists and turns, was never complicated.  That, to me, was part of the charm.  The story was solid, but still simple to follow.  Meanwhile, the Crimson Echoes demo had more twists than the entire CT game put together, and can be more difficult to follow.

As well, some things don't tie in well.  For example, if the robotic (I assume he's robotic) soldier got sucked into Chronopolis along with Crono, Lucca, and Marle, wouldn't he just appear somewhere nearby?  How did he get into the Chronopolis time machine without anybody noticing?

- Too many people dying all over the place.  The Dark Ages elder dies, Kino dies, and Crono's hacking people up left and right.  In the original CT only a few people ever actually died.  Marle died for all of five minutes, and a few Guardia soldiers died on the bridge fighting Ozzie's troops.  There may be a few other examples (the man that turns to bones in the Guardia Castle prison), but generally the death count was low, and Crono didn't become a death machine that hacked away at everything that he simply glanced at.  If that's what he was about, a second battle with Azala would have never occured...

- You give Schala to us, then take her away.  DRAT!

- Dalton needs to become playable, if only for humor's sake.

I'm sorry if I appear to be nitpicking.  The demo WAS great, and in fact even if NONE of these things got fixed (save Frog being unplayable), I'd still get the final product.  I think that the more feedback you get though, the more you can potentially improve.

Agent 12

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2006, 11:06:57 am »
Thanks for the post lawman, nitpicking is exactly what this thread is for.

Supposedly CT playstation had Frog turn human no matter what (can't confirm this myself), that's how we were explaining he's Glenn, but it was more cause we hoped to make Glenn playable (sadly it seems more and more impossibe.....if not for the sprite than for the NEW techs).  Also I guess in Japanese version Frog had a bit more bite in his speech.

Not sure what you mean about Singing Mountain enemies just appearing, but you definately have a point with epoch hall way monsters, I thought that I'm pretty sure my original plan was to have them come from behing pillars anyways haha....what happened to that....

You'll definately get to see Frog soon, they got alot of work to do in 600 now.

The Cyborg didn't get sucked in the first time, though he did sneak in the epoch the second and use a prototype time egg that Belthasar was making to go back and fix up the dragon tank and bring Porre to war.  However, it's still not totally proven that he's the cause of the Chronopolis attack that takes place afterward.

The story will have more killing this time around, if only because by Chrono Cross Guardia is lost, but you got a point with Crono killing left and right.  He's hard to do cause he really has no character and you dont know if he really is a killing machine haha.

Hope that answered some of your questions and thanks for all the feed back.

--jp

Vehek

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2006, 11:28:58 am »
Actually, for me, most (in fact IIRC all) monsters in Singing Mountain appear onscreen before battle and wander around. The only places I had to fight enemies before arranging the pieces were around two of the chests with the InstrumentPs you need. And even those monsters appear onscreen beforehand.

justin3009

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2006, 12:17:30 pm »
I'll be waiting for the next part!  I finished all secrets side quests and got every piece for the musuem.  So i'm all set for the next release =P

ZeaLitY

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2006, 01:04:39 pm »
Well, I'm glad that my Magus dialogue skills are still in place. I received some praise for my handling him in fanfiction. He's got to be the hardest character to write for. Glenn was based on his Japanese characterization, which was more like "you pale-faced bastard Magus" than the holy knight. This does not negate his nobility, it's just that the smarty guy was more appealing (we got a lot of requests to get rid of Glenn's formal speech in the last demo, probably because we used ACTUAL Elizabethan English and not Woolsey's broken stuff).

I tried to make Belthasar a little off-center and overly enthusiastic, and build off his portrayal in Chrono Cross. But really, thanks to the mish-mashing of the plot, Belthasar ended up being a chatterbox of plot twists.

Chronopolis13

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2006, 01:33:14 pm »
I don't think I made this clear enough so I will.

***SPOILER*** If you're trying to find all the secrets by yourself don't read.

At the end of the demo, before talking to Schala, head South, all the way down to the elevator. When Melchior talks to you, then head back. You now get to enjoy an extra segment of the upcoming game where you go talk to Glenn in 600. Boo yah.

justin3009

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2006, 02:12:25 pm »
Also, justin3009 has found the three secrets of the second Crimson Echoes demo first. Congratulations!  YAY

But anyways,  for people who don't want to know the secrets do not read on

-------------------SPOILER ALERT-----------------




































Secret 1 The Battle of Zeal

Go to the room where Schala is then head south, defeat all the enemies on the way and open the chests.  ONce you get to the bottom where Belthasar says you can't go on, go back up.  There you will fight "Zeal".

Secret 2 Cut Scene of Schala/Janus

Remember the Zealan in last village that says can you spare a jade orb?  Well, it's time to get it.  After you defeat Doltan, go back to the area behind the mountain.  Once you get to the last area where you can leave, go to the far right and you will find a chest.  There you will receive the Jade Orb.  Take it back to the zealan and he will give you a glass rose.  Then, head to Schala's so called "grave", and place the glass rose there.  You will unlock a cut scene where Magus(Janus) and Schala talk about having a picnic.

Secret 3 Debug Menu

Go to Crono's fridge and press ABXY

Side Quest  Museum of stuff XD

Talk to the Chancellor in 1000 AD, and you will unlock the coins in the museum.
Talk to the old man in sandorino? Inn or cafe not sure which in 600 AD and he will make a statue of Cyrus.
Talk to the woman down in porre in 600 AD and she will ask for rocks.  Go back to prehistoric and go to the top left Ioka Hut.  Talk to the top left person and he will give you rocks, then go back to 600 AD and talk to the woman again.  She will create a statue of Magus and Cyrus in final moments.



Congratulations!  You have now gotten all the secrets =P

Nem

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2006, 03:43:14 pm »
Hi!

First off, congrats for the hard work.

Some issues I've noticed:
- Hard-coded names: I renamed Crono and Magus so I saw a few of those. In Magus' case, the only striking example was the message when he joins. I remember one in the Middle Ages (Elder's house in San Dorino) but I wouldn't change that, it makes more sense for people there to call him "Magus" despite whatever you name him. (Rant: I never understood in CT why people in 600 AD automatically started referring to him by his new name instead of sticking to "Magus". I renamed him "Janus" on my first CT playthrough, then renamed him back to "Magus" because it was too weird.)
- People in 1000 AD talk to Crono even if he is not in the active party (Mrs. Elisa, Zack and the heartbroken guy in Leene Square are the ones I noticed).
- Magus speaks after the Lasher fight in the labyrinth even if he is not in the active party.
- Crono speaks in Ioka if he is the second character when that guy tells the party that Ayla is off to Singing Mountain.
- Medina Square: it plays "Delightful Spekkio" normally, but if you go into the switch screen and back it plays the Ocean Palace music. (Edit: I remember now, that wasn't the Ocean Palace music, it was something else that plays in Zeal. Anyway, this seems to be affected by the music in the last non-overworld location you've been to. I went to the labyrinth, returned and got the Zeal Palace music, then went to Manoria Cathedral, and got the church/temple music in Medina Square. Quite possibly the "Singing Mountain" occurrence was here too.) I'm fairly sure this happened somewhere else with the "Singing Mountain" song, but I can't remember where.
- On some levels of Denadoro (the "sunlit" ones), some tiles are too light.
- More Denadoro. On the screen just after the one where a Free Lancer jumps on you from above, if you don't have Robo on the lead you eventually get stuck (I can't quite remember, but I think this is where Frog got the Golden Rock in CT) and if you have Magus in the active party you can't move at all. The other characters don't show up. This is similar (but not quite the same) to what happens in the summit of Dactyl Nest.
- I tried to open/close the curtain in Crono's bedroom with everyone other than Crono and got stuck.

Suggestions:
- Dalton Plus, if beaten, does the whole "failed summoning of Golem Boss" routine, which I think is a bit weird. Normal Dalton would be better, in my opinion.
- About the killing thing lawman mentioned, I have to say that Crono killing Ingrus seemed a little stupid of Crono's part. Maybe you should have something like Ingrus being captured and killing himself in prison?
- A couple of jokes contrasting Glenn's new style of speech (which I personally like better) with his old one would be nice.

On the plus side, I didn't have much trouble going through the demo, not even with finding the labyrinth. I feel that the Singing Mountain puzzle could have used a better explanation, though.

That's it for now.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 06:28:35 pm by Nem »

Agent 12

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2006, 04:59:31 pm »
Nice catches Nem and way to explore everything.

--jp

lawman

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2006, 07:44:22 pm »
Supposedly CT playstation had Frog turn human no matter what (can't confirm this myself), that's how we were explaining he's Glenn, but it was more cause we hoped to make Glenn playable (sadly it seems more and more impossibe.....if not for the sprite than for the NEW techs).  Also I guess in Japanese version Frog had a bit more bite in his speech.

Ahh... I'd gotten all the way up to Lavos in the Playstation version, but I traded it to a friend for Star Ocean 2 before I could finish.  That, and I never knew there was such a stark difference between Frog's banter in the US and Japanese versions.  Thanks for the clarification.

Quote
Not sure what you mean about Singing Mountain enemies just appearing, but you definately have a point with epoch hall way monsters, I thought that I'm pretty sure my original plan was to have them come from behing pillars anyways haha....what happened to that....

I wasn't referring to Singing Mountain, which was the lone exception (although to be fair it IS the biggest dungeon in the demo).  In fact, though I felt that the Imps running around were TOO easy to avoid, that dungeon was very well-handled.  And yeah, it really seemed that the pillars held a bigger purpose than just standing there and looking pretty...

Quote
You'll definately get to see Frog soon, they got alot of work to do in 600 now.

That's a plus.  Wise-mouthed or otherwise, Frog's the man... well, err, the frog, yeah.

Quote
The Cyborg didn't get sucked in the first time, though he did sneak in the epoch the second and use a prototype time egg that Belthasar was making to go back and fix up the dragon tank and bring Porre to war.  However, it's still not totally proven that he's the cause of the Chronopolis attack that takes place afterward.

Hmm...  I didn't realize he used a prototype time egg himself... now I'm even more confused.  I think I need to give the demo a second play-through.

Quote
The story will have more killing this time around, if only because by Chrono Cross Guardia is lost, but you got a point with Crono killing left and right.  He's hard to do cause he really has no character and you dont know if he really is a killing machine haha.

Hmm... I need to play more Chrono Cross.

I never really pictured Crono as a killing machine.  Seems in Chrono Trigger the only time the team necessarily kills anything is if it poses an immediate threat to them.  I again point to Azala escaping.  They could have chased after him, or simply not let him pass them before attacking Nizbel, or even killed him for the Gate Key instead of simply demanding he return it.  Instead they let him flee.

Then when the King's guards chase after Crono and Co. after the trial, none of the team members physically assault the guards.  The only ones in the prison that Crono attacks are the ones that actually engage in battle with him, and when the final guy runs up the stairs and away from Crono, Lucca does (or doesn't, as is hinted) knock him down the stairs, but no one attempts to kill him.

It is true though, it's hard to come up with a personality for a character that's not supposed to have any.  As well, I'm sure there's just a lot of things that wouldn't have passed through Nintendo.  Such was the nature of things at the time.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my comments.

Jikkuryuu

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2006, 10:24:01 pm »
I noticed a minor bug when running, which I do pretty often which is why I'm mentioning it. If the character leading the party runs into an obstacle and doesn't auto-correct around it then the ohter party members keep going. Didn't notice it much except when cash-mining the beasts in their forest. Then it's quite obvious.
I also saw a few layering issues, but I can't point out any in particular other than the Nizbel (sp?) fight room. They were ok, but when Magus used lightning 2 it outlined some black areas.
The coliseum was really neat even if it had some balance issues. Easy mode round 1-6= 1 Blue Imp, round 7= 2 Blue Imps. Normal mode seemed better but I should mention the first round starts with 3 imps but 2 disappear when the status window pops up. It also seemed a little odd that the big guy in round 2 can sometimes attack before his imp partner enters the battle. It would be nice if either BP didn't reset or if you earned more by fighting alone than with the party but it probably works better as is.
Schala: Thank you Magusio but your princess is in another version...

Agent 12

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2006, 10:34:02 pm »
The Coliseum will be completely overhauled monsterwise/BP eventually, I just wanted to port it over to so it to people for the demo. 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the other characters still running if he runs into an obstacle can you clarify or give an exact example in Beast Forest?

--jp

Chronopolis13

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2006, 03:01:48 am »
Quote
Too many people dying all over the place.  The Dark Ages elder dies, Kino dies, and Crono's hacking people up left and right.

You know, I thought about that too. But after thinking about it, I realized that that could be an interesting (and somewhat novel for an industry fuelled by gangsta simulators) story line where Crono has to examine himself and his actions. Every major issue in the Chrono series is ultimately decided violently. Crono goes to jail, he fights his way out. Monster messes with Earth, he kills it. Perhaps in the first quest, Crono, who had started out idealistically, has become "used" to killing. I think it would be interesting if the other characters helped him come to terms with violence and maybe *gasp* solve a problem via nonviolent means... Other than a fetch quest or something. I dunno. Peaceful negotiation between Guardia and Porre?

I also think that about halfway through the game, Crono should start speaking.

Chrono'99

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Re: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Demo 2 Feedback
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2006, 04:44:24 am »
I also think that about halfway through the game, Crono should start speaking.
I think in this game Crono should speak normally, from the start to the end. Someone from the staff noted that while CT revolved around Crono, CT:CE was revolving more around the party as a whole. So it would make sense for Crono not to be the player's avatar but a normal speaking character. A lot of Chrono fans would think otherwise though.