Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[Shadow D. Darkman]

I wasn't saying it was a bad/pointless post, was just FYI. It just reignited my mirth at the idea.

[ryu planeswalker]

Hi, I have been a long time reader of The Compendium and with the new release of CT I thought it would be a good time to join in on the discussion.

The Dream Devourer's Dialog jumped out at me when I first went against it, the idea that Lavos was the mastermind behind the Time Devourer's Plot to destroy everything is a little odd considering that Lavos doesn't seem to have a real personality and didn't actually destroy anything besides Zeal, Recall that Mother Brain did say that the planet would eventually recover from Lavos' attack, so no permanent harm was done, which makes sense for a Being that is Harvesting DNA, it didn't Wipe out Civilization out of malice, it did it to clear the genetic slate of the planet so in a few million years, one of its descendants could have a new set of DNA to work off of.

So with that theory down, I would like to extend that Schala was the brains behind the Devourers, we know she hated Zeal for forcing her to be the operator of the Mammon Machine.

What if when Crono and Crew intervened in the Ocean Palace Incident they inadvertently killed Schala, When Magus tells the original story of how he got transported to 600 AD he had been sent before Schala supposedly gotten caught in  her own, so logically instead of Porting Crono and Crew out, she used the last of the pendants power to Teleport herself and Zeal out, but instead the events of the game happen and she gets Tossed into the Darkness Beyond Time in which she sits and stews, possibly straining her sanity further until Lavos shows up, who being what it is sees DNA and attempts to assimilate it, starting to fusion Process, and as Lavos absorbs Schala's Magical Powers, it absorbs her mind or whats left of it, giving the now Omnicidal Woman a new weapon to destroy everything.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Methinks that for Lavos, his transformation into the Dream/Time Devourer was a convenient coincidence, which he used somewhat to get his revenge on the seven that slew him. I think he fed off of Schala's negative emotions to fuel his evolution.

True, he wasn't planning on the transformation, but he did put it to good use, at least, until Serge turned up with the Chrono Cross in hand.

[art_garfunkel]

Methinks that for Lavos, his transformation into the Dream/Time Devourer was a convenient coincidence, which he used somewhat to get his revenge on the seven that slew him. I think he fed off of Schala's negative emotions to fuel his evolution.

True, he wasn't planning on the transformation, but he did put it to good use, at least, until Serge turned up with the Chrono Cross in hand.

I don't think its appropriate to pin emotions on Lavos. It was by nature a consumer; it sought to consume everything around it. Therefore, when it merged with a powerful magic-user and gained the ability to consume the very fabric of space-time, it simply did what it did best: start consuming.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

And? Shouldn't he have at least a trace of sentience, or was he programmed to fight the way he did?

If he does, why shouldn't that sentience evolve into something bigger?

[art_garfunkel]

And? Shouldn't he have at least a trace of sentience, or was he programmed to fight the way he did?

If he does, why shouldn't that sentience evolve into something bigger?

Well, its a possibility. There is no indication however that Lavos has any more motivation than to "eat," if you will. I prefer to see him more as an base animal than a sentient being; I feel that that fits the facts better.

[ryu planeswalker]

The only issue with that is that if it were a base animal wouldn't it have blown the planet into Tiny Bits in 1999 instead of leaving it intact and capable of recovering?

[Onikage725]

Hm, but inside of Lavos you find what looks like a big set of power armor housing computer-like core systems working in tandem with a composite creature created from the most favorable DNA harvested. I think sentience is likely, though possibly one so alien as to not make sense to a human. I doubt Lavos feels any more malice or remorse for wiping out humanity than we would for disposing of an ant colony that had grown out of control in our yard.

I kinda like the idea of Schala being a driving force once corrupted. I think that's what gave Lavos (well, the DD/TD) "petty" human emotions to work with.

Are there theories on Lavos gaining specific power from Schala? Considering that magic came to humans from contact with Lavos (or the Frozen Flame, rather), and a major component of Schala's power was the pendant that was powered by Lavos' own emissions and then drained/sent away, what would Lavos have to gain in power from their fusion? And Lavos had temporal powers to begin with, which Schala didn't. Heck, I'd venture that her ability to send people to their own eras stemmed from either her location in the DBT or from Lavos' portion of their fusion.

This may or may not be related to the topic overall, but I noticed something today that I had previously forgotten about Lavos. I've been fighting him a lot in my current game (a NG+). If you travel on foot to the Day of Lavos and challenge him, you stop him before he fires. You also open a gate inside his core (which doesn't occur at the fair grounds warp and I don't recall if it does in the Ocean Palace or Black Omen). The fight takes place in the little dimensional ripple as usual, but if you back out and return... the husk is just sitting there motionless on the ground. Also, he *never* fires. Probably just a game mechanic, but every time you go back you find him waiting for you with a hole in his shell.

Most interesting- he seems to keep the hole across times. I cracked him open in 1999, but later attacked him from 1000 and found his shell pierced. So apparently the theory about him existing in all time eras at once applies even if he's knocked out of his pocket dimension. Thoughts?

[ryu planeswalker]

Hm, but inside of Lavos you find what looks like a big set of power armor housing computer-like core systems working in tandem with a composite creature created from the most favorable DNA harvested. I think sentience is likely, though possibly one so alien as to not make sense to a human. I doubt Lavos feels any more malice or remorse for wiping out humanity than we would for disposing of an ant colony that had grown out of control in our yard.

Unless Lavos was designed as an DNA Harvesting Machine(computer) and while Good at what it is ment to do, doesn't really have a clue about anything but the analyzing and harvesting of DNA.

[Rowan Seven]

Personally, I think it might be the case that evolution is the driving force of Lavos and his race.  They go from planet to planet, analyze and appropriate the DNA of lifeforms on these planets, assimilate the DNA they deem useful into their own genetic structures, mass produce spawn that presumably also possess this acquired DNA and will take to the stars themselves someday in their own evolutionary quests, and then return to space in search of another planet.  Lavos is more than simply parasitic; Lavos is attempting to become a higher lifeform.  Whether that means Lavos is a sentient creature or is instinctively acting on an innate drive to evolve are open questions, but there certainly seems to be more to Lavos' nature than just consumption judging by his gathering and utilization of genetic material.

Expanding this idea raises the interesting possibility that the Time Devourer might be an aberration in the normal evolutionary process for Lavos, though.  Gradual, internal metamorphosis seems to be the approach Lavos takes with its growth, but with Schala rather than simply copying and appropriating her DNA Lavos opted to fuse with her.  Instead of one lifeform becoming a more advanced lifeform, two lifeforms would become a new lifeform.  Similarly, while Lavos has demonstrated the ability to warp and manipulate time, Lavos still exists _within_ time.  So, even for Lavos, The Darkness Beyond Time was likely an alien environment with alien properties, and in order to survive Lavos might have had no choice but to fuse with Schala.  And it is entirely possible that during the fusion process, as Schala and Lavos' minds became one, that Schala's human emotions "corrupted" Lavos, replacing Lavo's genetic imperative to evolve with a more nihilistic drive.  After all, becoming a lifeform that devours dimensions might be a high apex of evolution, but it seems somewhat counterproductive if at the same time it destroys the rest of Lavos' species and eliminates alternative paths of evolution.

[ZealKnight]

Personally, I think it might be the case that evolution is the driving force of Lavos and his race.  They go from planet to planet, analyze and appropriate the DNA of lifeforms on these planets, assimilate the DNA they deem useful into their own genetic structures, mass produce spawn that presumably also possess this acquired DNA and will take to the stars themselves someday in their own evolutionary quests, and then return to space in search of another planet.  Lavos is more than simply parasitic; Lavos is attempting to become a higher lifeform.  Whether that means Lavos is a sentient creature or is instinctively acting on an innate drive to evolve are open questions, but there certainly seems to be more to Lavos' nature than just consumption judging by his gathering and utilization of genetic material.

Expanding this idea raises the interesting possibility that the Time Devourer might be an aberration in the normal evolutionary process for Lavos, though.  Gradual, internal metamorphosis seems to be the approach Lavos takes with its growth, but with Schala rather than simply copying and appropriating her DNA Lavos opted to fuse with her.  Instead of one lifeform becoming a more advanced lifeform, two lifeforms would become a new lifeform.  Similarly, while Lavos has demonstrated the ability to warp and manipulate time, Lavos still exists _within_ time.  So, even for Lavos, The Darkness Beyond Time was likely an alien environment with alien properties, and in order to survive Lavos might have had no choice but to fuse with Schala.  And it is entirely possible that during the fusion process, as Schala and Lavos' minds became one, that Schala's human emotions "corrupted" Lavos, replacing Lavo's genetic imperative to evolve with a more nihilistic drive.  After all, becoming a lifeform that devours dimensions might be a high apex of evolution, but it seems somewhat counterproductive if at the same time it destroys the rest of Lavos' species and eliminates alternative paths of evolution.

I personally always believed this, I think that when Lavos and Schala fused her emotions not only corrupted lavos but also he corrupted her emotions. Thus making him only obtain anger and other emotions along that line. But the only thing is how can they survive. Schala has no subsistence and Lavos' relied on the earth. Does the Dream Devourer Self-Sustain it's life? Which brings up another idea, is there other stuff in Time's Eclipse?

[Syrek]

From what I know of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, these two games follow seperate timelines in which they similar in many ways but have various differences that make them so unique. From what I can tell, the Dimensional Vortex was essentially binding these two timelines together through the various memories of the characters within. This Magus that was shown in Times Eclipse is most likely from that of the timeline in Chrono Cross. Perhaps more importantly is that the Dream Devourer is Lavos from Chrono Trigger but through its ability to use time and Schala, it was able to find a way to traverse through the various existences and make its way to Chrono Cross universe. Of course I've never played Chrono Cross to even confirm this but from what I know, this may be the most likely thing.

[ryu planeswalker]

I am starting to think the Magus that was encountered in the Vortex was a creation of the DD, perhaps the Magus there seems to be a bit more erratic than Magus usually, note that even when lavos drained his powers ocean palace Magus remained calm, we know that the TD can create people out of nothing as it did with kid, maybe as Schala was fusing with Lavos, her subconscious manifested a second Magus as the last bit of real humanity in her so that she could tell him to stop searching for her and have in actually do it, as opposed to the Original Magus who (assuming the new ending happened which I do, as if it weren't there would be no point in putting it in) continued to search for Schala even after encountering the DD, perhaps looking for a way to separate the two.

[Magus_Brokenhart]

Hey, you fight Crono Shade at Leene Square, just like Miguel! Could that be where Crono died? You fight Lucca at her room, could that be where she died? You fight Marle at castle, where she died? Maybe Crono and the ladies absorbed the dead shades after the time unison. I'm truly drunk, i'm sure i'm being blasphemious.

Anyways, Lavos seems to carefully plan things. Harvesting D.N.A. for his own use would require making choices. Don't the characters state that he manipulated history for his benefit? Also, wasn't he PLANNING something when he sent Chronopolis to the past? Oh and that Magus at the Time's Eclipse is just the party's Magus after they already beat Lavos. He's just so godly to transcend time that way!

Who thinks Schala and Zeal actually survived on the original timeline without Crono's interference? I find that a pretty nice idea!

[utunnels]

Hey, you fight Crono Shade at Leene Square, just like Miguel! Could that be where Crono died? You fight Lucca at her room, could that be where she died? You fight Marle at castle, where she died?

Interesting, never thought about it before.