Election Thread 2008

[V_Translanka]

Most of the time you are who you associate with.

I don't think that's true. I couldn't stand to hang around anyone who was like me...I'm an asshole! There are people who choose to associate with people they think need them, people they're better than, and people that could use them to be better influences to...The opposite is also true. Everyone is different.

[placidchap]

Name the last time a terrorist action killed 5,000 people. 

I  guess that depends on how you define terrorism or what acts are terrorism...

you could say that the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan was an act of terrorism, as it was an act of violence with the intention of instilling fear and terror...it certainly coerced Japan to throw in the towel.

[Thought]

I don't think that's true. I couldn't stand to hang around anyone who was like me...I'm an asshole! There are people who choose to associate with people they think need them, people they're better than, and people that could use them to be better influences to...The opposite is also true. Everyone is different.

Sounds like you are channeling Groucho Marx: "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as a member."

I  guess that depends on how you define terrorism or what acts are terrorism...

Generally, terrorism is a third option. It isn't peace, it isn't (standard) war, so it is something else: terrorism. Dropping the atomic bomb on Japan was no more an act of terrorism (and no less) than the London Blitz, Sherman's March to the Sea, etc. These actions, though similar in many ways, are distinct from the common perception of Terrorism in that they were aimed at achieving a military end. Those events might target civilians but they do so as only one component of a larger, military oriented, goal. Terrorism is quite similar, admittedly, but it targets civilians primarily; it is not only a component, it is the bulk of the whole. A slight difference, but an important one. To offer an analogy, one might well find a little salt on french fries to be acceptable, but too much salt and it can make an individual physically ill.

[placidchap]

...military end. Those events might target civilians but they do so as only one component of a larger, military oriented, goal.

While I do agree that there is a slight difference, I am not sure that the [military] ends justify the means.  it is easy to lump things that happen in war time with acts of war, but take them piece meal and you can have a different story.  if they dropped those bombs on some huge military base, with minimal civilian casualties, as is the norm in wartime, while still horrific, I'd be more willing to accept it as an act of war, not one of terrorism.

[Jutty]

9/11 is sickening to even think about now for me. It would have been terrible regardless of location.

[Agent 12]

And it is only an atrocity because it happened on our soil

um....that's a lie it's definitely an atrocity no matter where it happens.  Yes it definitely hurt alot more cause it was closer to home....I'm pretty sure that's normal, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be horrible if it happened anywhere else.  Over the past 7 years I've watched people who have gotten so angry with the america's actions that they are almost trying to justify 9/11 which is a slap in the face to everyone that died there.  It's absolutely horrible that someone would say anything along the lines of "we had it coming"

--JP

[Lord J Esq]

In the spirit of bipartisanship...


LANDSLIDE, Bitches!!!


Don't like it, Republicans? Why, then you're a bunch of America-hating terrorist sympathizers who drain the economy and corrupt our morals. Don't like it? Tough. Payback is a bitch, and you've got fourteen years' worth of it coming. Damn this feels good.

An aide rushes up and whispers into Josh's ear.

Really? Oh...well, shit.

Ahem! I've just been informed that the Democrats have to stand for reelection in 2010. Consequently, I would like to downplay my previous remarks and reiterate my friendship with and fondness for you conservative slimebags--er--simpletons--er--s...tupendous...individuals. Here's to the spirit of bipartisanshit in which I fully intend to work alongside my comrades across the political divide in the interest of furthering the interests of the American people.

God, I need mouthwash after that.

[KebreI]

Oh my god, some one being an ass on the internet! How clever he must feel.

[ZeaLitY]

Oh my god, some one being an ass on the internet! How clever he must feel.

You'll understand one day.

[BROJ]

Now, now J; an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, and a world of blind hatred yields no beneficent progress, only regressive destruction.

[V_Translanka]

I think it should have been said that 9/11 is more recognized as being an atrocity because of where it happened. Worldwide, atrocities occur almost daily and America barely bats an eye because out of sight, out of mind...I don't know if I have a point, but I thought I'd say so anyways because I'm American, dammit!

[Lord J Esq]

Now, now J; an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, and a world of blind hatred yields no beneficent progress, only regressive destruction.

I never much liked that saying. For one thing, it implies a parity between the parties involved that may well not exist. Republicans spent eight years telling the rest of us that they're the real Americans and we have to be like them, and they spent fourteen years taking people's rights away for reasons of religion or profit. We're going to put an end to that. It's our country too, and they are going to learn that the hard way now--by having their undue influence cut down to size in the new administration. They had the opportunity to engage in the political process respectfully, but as recently as one week ago they were still saying that we should have witch-hunts in the Congress. On Tuesday, sexual equality was on the chopping block in three states and gay rights in four. These people have to be stopped. We've got to change the way ordinary Americans respond to their lunacy. The landslide victory we won on Tuesday earned us the opportunity to make the change we seek. Now we have to use that power; it isn't enough to win election. We have to wield the power too. You call that "blind hate" without warrant. While some liberals may be itching to treat the Republicans as crudely as they have treated the rest of America, I and the majority of liberals are not among that number. Neither shall we be stopped in our tracks by semantics or obfuscation. I am personally prepared to argue the distinction between remediation and revenge.

For another thing, that saying doesn't make a lot of sense even when accounting for the generosities that must be shown to hackneyed figures of speech. Should every action no matter how foul go unchallenged lest the world end up blind as you suggest? I think that's rubbish. It's too easy to come up with bad metaphors, or to use good metaphors badly. I could say that justice is supposed to be blind. That's a good metaphor...but it makes almost as little sense in this context as yours does.

[BROJ]

Now, now J; an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, and a world of blind hatred yields no beneficent progress, only regressive destruction.

I never much liked that saying. For one thing, it implies a parity between the parties involved that may well not exist. Republicans spent eight years telling the rest of us that they're the real Americans and we have to be like them, and they spent fourteen years taking people's rights away for reasons of religion or profit. We're going to put an end to that. It's our country too, and they are going to learn that the hard way now--by having their undue influence cut down to size in the new administration. They had the opportunity to engage in the political process respectfully, but as recently as one week ago they were still saying that we should have witch-hunts in the Congress. On Tuesday, sexual equality was on the chopping block in three states and gay rights in four. These people have to be stopped. We've got to change the way ordinary Americans respond to their lunacy. The landslide victory we won on Tuesday earned us the opportunity to make the change we seek. Now we have to use that power; it isn't enough to win election. We have to wield the power too. You call that "blind hate" without warrant. While some liberals may be itching to treat the Republicans as crudely as they have treated the rest of America, I and the majority of liberals are not among that number. Neither shall we be stopped in our tracks by semantics or obfuscation. I am personally prepared to argue the distinction between remediation and revenge.

For another thing, that saying doesn't make a lot of sense even when accounting for the generosities that must be shown to hackneyed figures of speech. Should every action no matter how foul go unchallenged lest the world end up blind as you suggest? I think that's rubbish. It's too easy to come up with bad metaphors, or to use good metaphors badly. I could say that justice is supposed to be blind. That's a good metaphor...but it makes almost as little sense in this context as yours does.

Both you and I know their is currently an enmity between mainstream democrats and republican and that the hatred is one of convenience, parity or not; to deny that would be ignorant and ludicrous. Personally, the saying is rather self-evident, if a system exclusively reacts to every radical, then the system will experience a run-away chain-reaction that will eventually destroy itself. That's what defines sentience, the ability to not react and the ability to prevent. I, for one, am willing to forgive and start tabula rosa, to build upon that which works─simplicity. Why must it be death alone that change is birthed?

Besides, even if the hate/dislike is warranted or unwarranted(which I never implied), do you want to build a world on the blood and ashes of those you 'hate'? Are you so much more of a human, nay, less susceptible to hatred and error than they are? Remediation and revenge? Pah, healing doesn't destroy and revenge doesn't heal.

Ultimately, is it illumination or victory you seek? If it is the latter, nothing good will come of it.

Edit:Final, please quote current state.

[ZeaLitY]

Are you so much more of a human, nay, less susceptible to hatred and error than they are?

I'm going to argue yes here, and not just for Lord J, but for many people who strive to better themselves and humanity at large. I still can't claim to rank people, but that counts for something. The case is especially simple here, since right-wing politics have become a hate machine that has expelled conservative intellectuals and people with too much "otherness" and has vilified entire swaths of people unjustly to achieve political gain. They threw this gauntlet down first, and now they're going to get receive their apt justice. If they'd like to stop infringing upon civil rights and demonizing people, then I'll be the first to befriend them. But as it stands, Obama is an evil Muslim who pals around with terrorists; Democrats are USA-hating sissies who want to see the troops fail; liberals are godless, morally bankrupt heathens who want to steal your hard-earned dollars; secularism stands in the way of American Christian Imperialism. Fear, fear, fear. The entire McCain campaign platform seemed to be "fear Obama and the ev0l libruls", with the entire "Who is Barack Obama?" spiel crossing the line into coded racism. As someone who grew up in Oklahoma, the anti-intellectual atmosphere is palpable, as is the one of Christian assimilation.

We have every reason as human beings to be happy that what I've described has just been strongly repudiated. And given the sins above, I'm not the least bit concerned about shedding tears for these hate-mongering people. We're going to fix things, and if they want a part in compassionate humanity, they're free to pitch in.

~

As a side note, as a graduate student of business, I can now say that the entire school of thought reeks of corruption. I overheard the argument Wednesday that business students should naturally vote for McCain, who'll be more friendly to business. The act of voting has become a function of greed to these people, and it's not surprising. Tax class is all about how to avoid the most taxes for your client. Law is about how to create your business so that you'll have the least debt or responsibility if it fails or hurts others. I can easily see how it'd be a stone truth to these people to vote for McCain, regardless of Palin, his other positions, or the affirmation of the current conservative cancer. It's just disgusting, and I could never quite get it until now.

[BROJ]

Are you so much more of a human, nay, less susceptible to hatred and error than they are?

I'm going to argue yes here, and not just for Lord J, but for many people who strive to better themselves and humanity at large. I still can't claim to rank people, but that counts for something. The case is especially simple here, since right-wing politics have become a hate machine that has expelled conservative intellectuals and people with too much "otherness" and has vilified entire swaths of people unjustly to achieve political gain. They threw this gauntlet down first, and now they're going to get receive their apt justice. If they'd like to stop infringing upon civil rights and demonizing people, then I'll be the first to befriend them. But as it stands, Obama is an evil Muslim who pals around with terrorists; Democrats are USA-hating sissies who want to see the troops fail; liberals are godless, morally bankrupt heathens who want to steal your hard-earned dollars; secularism stands in the way of American Christian Imperialism. Fear, fear, fear. The entire McCain campaign platform seemed to be "fear Obama and the ev0l libruls", with the entire "Who is Barack Obama?" spiel crossing the line into coded racism. As someone who grew up in Oklahoma, the anti-intellectual atmosphere is palpable, as is the one of Christian assimilation.

We have every reason as human beings to be happy that what I've described has just been strongly repudiated. And given the sins above, I'm not the least bit concerned about shedding tears for these hate-mongering people.

I'm afraid I do not think human means what you think it means. Ranks or not, we are imperfect by ourselves and must help and depend on others. Realize this and know this; only then can you we change things for the better. Why is this "justice" good, true and necessary? What does it serve to act like an abused animal let off it's chain? Am I sympathizing with the actions that corrupted and raped our country? Are you kidding? No. I am sympathizing with my fellow humans who have been misled.

Mercy or justice; which do you think will preserve the human race in the end?

As a side note, as a graduate student of business, I can now say that the entire school of thought reeks of corruption. I overheard the argument Wednesday that business students should naturally vote for McCain, who'll be more friendly to business. The act of voting has become a function of greed to these people, and it's not surprising. Tax class is all about how to avoid the most taxes for your client. Law is about how to create your business so that you'll have the least debt or responsibility if it fails or hurts others. I can easily see how it'd be a stone truth to these people to vote for McCain, regardless of Palin, his other positions, or the affirmation of the current conservative cancer. It's just disgusting, and I could never quite get it until now.

I'm afraid I cannot provide wisdom or knowledge on the subject, save that money, possessions and personal interests are unable to provide happiness per se, leading people to search a hollow husk for something which is not present─happiness.