Author Topic: Election Thread 2008  (Read 2853 times)

Thought

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Re: Election Thread 2008
« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2008, 06:20:30 pm »
I didn't mean to imply that you are mean or limited (indeed, such a topic is beyond the scope of what I was even saying). Merely that you seem to be more task-oriented than people-oriented. The two aren't necessarily an inverse relation, nor is one desirable and the other undesirable, nor are they exclusive to other approaches. Your strength, as I perceive it, is in your attention to details. Obama's strength, as I perceive it, is in his attention to people. Not in a group-hug sort of way, mind you, but in a "come on, we can do this" sort of way. When faced with a problem, I believe you are someone who will gather the details you need first. When faced with a problem, I believe Obama will gather the people he needs first. This is merely a strength, not a limitation. But it is a strength that I think in necessary.

If it helps you understand my point any more, allow me to say that I'm similar to you in that regard. If I'm calling you a dick, then I'm calling myself one as well. But I'm not. I am trying to say that merely being a decent person isn't enough. Indeed, I'm even saying that being a good person isn't enough. Dems need to be fantastic people; saints (for lack of a non-religious equivalent). It is unreasonable to expect any group of to meet such lofty goals, but anything less will be perceived (even if it is not in reality) as vindictive and in about 30 years two people will probably be having very similar conversations as this.

I think you are someone who will be as good and as kind as reason, good form, and propriety allow (when required). The divergence comes in that I think the ruling party needs to be good and kind well beyond reason. As such, that is why I said "more Obama, less Josh." I will gladly admit I don't know you well enough to make a grand statement, but from what I've seen... you are reasonable, and that is the problem. Being reasonable won’t get us where we need to be (as I see it).

But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you are willing to be unreasonable with me?

side note: I do prefer to influence people by example, where as you seem to prefer to influence people more directly. Just to address the issue a little, since you brought it up.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 06:34:35 pm by Thought »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Election Thread 2008
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2008, 07:52:52 pm »
Quote from: Thought
Your strength, as I perceive it, is in your attention to details. Obama's strength, as I perceive it, is in his attention to people. Not in a group-hug sort of way, mind you, but in a "come on, we can do this" sort of way.

It's true that I have sometimes had to remind myself to be considerate of other people. I think you're a few years late in that analysis, though. I'm a fairly considerate and inclusive person today, more so than I used to be. I'm probably not as good as Obama, but he's got twenty years on this cat.

As for your distinction between "details" and "people," I like your disclaimer so much that I think it negates the contrast. "Details..."people"...you're being arbitrary here.

Quote from: Thought
I think you are someone who will be as good and as kind as reason, good form, and propriety allow (when required).

You're suggesting that I don't have social skills or lack the desire to be kind and inclusive, and on top of that you're making a straw man of "reasonableness." I'll just have to disagree with you on all counts. Thought, being aware of oneself, and having clear goals that include interacting with people deliberately, do not preclude a person from enjoying the full span of human emotion, and acting on those emotions reasonably (in the real sense of that word) in the course of their life generally and their personal interactions in particular.

Quote from: Thought
Perhaps you are willing to be unreasonable with me?

I'm certainly here talking to you, respectfully. And if you haven't noticed, I have shared my personal thoughts with you. These have to count for something.

Quote from: Thought
I do prefer to influence people by example, where as you seem to prefer to influence people more directly.

Interesting you should say that. From the observer's viewpoint, what I do to persuade people isn't very direct, and indeed there are often whole layers of purpose at work. I am straightforward enough with my ideas, but I have learned over time that changing people's minds by direct appeal almost never works. They have to persuade themselves. The way to make that happen is to put the ideas out there, keep up the exposure and the mood, and let people chew on what they have found. Therefore, I too very much lead by example, and the distinction with you is that my example is explicitly the less direct of the two. Indeed, I am often at my most direct in cases like this, when I am explaining myself. And I am not explaining myself to influence you: I am explaining myself to inform you, because you asked.

I get what you're trying to say: You try to influence other people's attitudes by projecting a positive one of your own. That's a debatable tactic, because it has limited power to actually change people's ideas. The edification upon which it relies is to become so admirable that people seek to emulate your manners, and, eventually, your ideas. I think you will find that it meets with mixed success. Better to work with ideas directly, and let people figure out for themselves what their manners will be. You'll notice that I've never encouraged people to behave pugnaciously; I've encouraged them to think.

Ideally, I would love to be more positive in my general deportment around here. But to commit to that would require two things that I do not possess:

First, I would need a receptive audience. Being positive to an ambivalent audience often fails to engage them, and being positive to a hostile audience often provokes them. (Think about that the next time you consider Obama's good attitude: He has been surrounded by his most adoring fans for two years. In his performances at the debates and at his press conferences, we see a different temperament. Here is one who suits his attitude to fit the environment, with the purpose of achieving his political aims.)

Second, I would need to know how being less positive does not work. I have a lot to learn about that, even still.

KebreI

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Re: Election Thread 2008
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2008, 12:59:49 am »

FaustWolf

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Re: Election Thread 2008
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2008, 01:36:59 am »
It's pretty close between Chuck Baldwin and Jesus by my count. There may need to be a runoff!