Author Topic: A Warning  (Read 1569 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2008, 02:54:35 am »
I disagree entirely. Indeed, we likely then disagree about the entire purpose of art and the artist.

See, I will stand by that the purpose of the artist is to make us better... teachers of the people, as it were. Art is not art for art's sake, in other words, but has a purpose. If only merely does art, whether it be visual or writing or anything else, to express one's self, then it belies its true purpose. Yes, it might be cathartic, in that you might learn something about yourself... well, in that case, you are again giving aid as you are laying bare an aspect of the human soul and, having worked through it, expressed a certain beauty in perseverence.

So, no, not all lyrics or words need be about things that are happy. My favourite mode is that of tragedy, to be sure. But tragedy is something distinct from depression. In tragedy there is still beauty. So I would claim that merely creating something to which someone can relate is only doing half one's duty as an artist. If one has the ability to relate to someone, then the duty is to take that and help them through it. Otherwise, what are you accomplishing? What is the point?

I think this is often ill considered in our culture, in which art rarely has an active purpose. The ancients, who gave rise to the arts we employ, would have disagreed, however. 'Children have their teachers, and youths have the poets.' And so any who endeavour to art must benefit society through it. Even if one must write about dark things, they can be made beautiful.

Well, I don't suppose everyone will agree with me on this. But it is the stand I take. Feel free to disagree, as Jutty has.

Jutty

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2008, 03:40:31 am »
My lyrics are just ways to share my experiences with others, to let them know they are not the only person that this happens to, and also to entertain. I know I'll never be a huge rockstar, but I enjoy what I do. It's good to sometimes just let people know what you feel when it's not so easy to just say.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 03:42:48 am by Jutty »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2008, 09:26:22 am »
As a so-called "artist", I would have to say that, although art is sometimes designed to "make us better", art is sometimes just art.  It just is.  I create it with no other reason than to channel my emotion, or to spend some time.  Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason, it just is.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2008, 12:26:43 pm »
Hmm... interesting. I would disagree on the principle, but it does have a strong position in modern thought, so I won't grudge you the opinion.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2008, 03:40:34 pm »
I honestly think art serves different purposes.  For some people it may mean "Concept A", for others "Concept B", and could continue onward to "Concept F2-Alpha Diamond".  It's like religion - it means different things for different people, depending on whose worldview you are peering from (and let's be honest, we all have a unique, individual worldview).

My opinions towards - and reasons for - art is going to be different for different people.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2008, 01:43:49 am »
Again, this is rather a modern concept. And I would argue against it, for the most part. Though, indeed, there is a certain relativistic component to any communication, whether artistic or even verbal (that is, it's reliant on the receiver's experience so as to be properly interpreted), the notion that art has no inherent intent or meaning is something I would disagree with (that is, I think, the post-modern view of things, unless I am mistaking it.)

See, this implies that there is no one true or correct interpretation such as the artist intended. I think this to be inherently false. Others might have variant views on the art, and how it impacts them (and don't anyone get on about how impact isn't a verb... it is. Check the OED if you disagree), some of these might simply be wrong in regards to the original intent. That is... art is not the process of perception, but rather the intended impact of the piece. If it is interpreted differently, this is then an aberration. It may achieve some effect and purpose, to be sure, but it is not in keeping with the concept of art. It is similar to the conception of speech. One may say words that each person perceives slightly differently, and yet there is one true meaning the person is trying to convey.

This sort of thinking can be applied to more metaphysical thinking as well. I suppose if you say that art has no inherent truth in it such as is intended by the artist, then all meaning becomes relative to the observer. In the same way, then, there is no absolute truth to be discovered in the world, and all our sciences, too, become merely relative to the observer, and all things are merely observed shells with nothing behind (I suppose Nietzsche would like this.) I'm not sure I'm willing to say that. Then again, maybe science IS in accord with such things, as I suppose that our modern theories deny the absolute measurements of space and time.

Nonetheless, for the time being, I think I will still hold to there being one true interpretation, and that being the art. And the rest is not the purpose of the art, but only variances from the original purpose. That is how I, as an artist, perceive what I do. I am attempting not to put out some random expression of my soul, but attempting to put order upon chaos. This is, indeed, a problem I have with such work as abstract art and free verse poetry: I see it as artistic anarchy, and a mood similar to that which would tear down the works of civilization in favour of some regression to the freedom of our hunter gatherer forebears. See, the human spirit does not come from the mere expression of that chaotic, continuous thought we have within ourselves, but the desire to order it. This is what language is; this is what we do when we tame the lands and the seas and construct beautiful works. We take what is chaos, and we attempt to impose a beautiful order upon it. This is the intent of civilization. Indeed, those who then say that poetry is free and expressive entirely miss what poetry is. Poetry is in fact more restricted than prose, for that it uses such things as metre and rhyme (at times, though not exclusively) to impose order on words, much as we do in all our other actions. There are those that would call, say, metre, artificial impositions upon words... yes! It may well be. But so is all civilization. That is the human spirit, the imposition of our order upon what is chaotic. As such, I do not see how poetry, which is amongst the truest expressions of that human spirit simply for that it is ethaereal thought enchained within human strictures should be unbound, and through it become less human.

So beware the dangers of the abstract.

Oh, I'm going to catch hell for this, I'm sure.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2008, 01:55:49 am »
No way dude, you're cool.  I understand - as far I can comprehend at the moment.  I may not understand completely, simply because I do not view things from your worldview, but I understand that you see and search for meaning in things.  All things.  You are a question asker, and there's nothing wrong with that.  In fact, it's a necessary component of the human race and without you our race would still be eating raw meat and grunting.

But do remember, as an artist I can honestly say that sometimes art just is.  Honestly.  There have been times I have written or painted or done graphic design just because.  No ulterior motives, and in all honesty, there are sometimes no hidden themes, ideas, or concepts.  Sometimes a meadow is a meadow.  Sometimes a silhouette is a silhouette.

Sometimes it just looks cool.  Other times it's to showcase my skills and subconciously fulfill a desire for praise.  But other times it is to pass the time, and I go into it - and finish it - without a goal in sight.  I let it shape itself, I let the concept of chaos theory shape it into order.

Does that make sense?  I hope it does.  Just remember that not everyone will see things the way you do.  That doesn't mean I am denying the concept that there is right and wrong; it just means 'diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks'.

WHATCHOO TALKIN' 'BOUT, WILLIS?'

Jutty

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2008, 12:21:26 am »
Listen to Radiohead they admitted that the lyrics for "Paranoid Android" didn't really mean anything, but there fans had made it out to be about the fall of the roman empire. So it is all about how the listener relates to it.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2008, 01:16:14 am »
Listen to Radiohead they admitted that the lyrics for "Paranoid Android" didn't really mean anything, but there fans had made it out to be about the fall of the roman empire. So it is all about how the listener relates to it.

And yet in such a case I do not know if I would then consider it to be art, because there was no intent behind it. I think that art requires intent. Now, if the words are meant to supplement rythm within the song, in such a manner as an extra instrument, to create mood and the like, this does have a certain artistic intent behind it. But for the fans, I would consider them wrong. What they perceived was not the nature of the art, but was a mistake.

See, the fundamental distinction is where one places the importance: upon the artist, or the viewer. I tend to put the meaning of art upon the artist, art being in my definition a desire to impress a certain view or thought upon the world, NOT the reception of that thought. That is, art is as when one draws aim at a target, the point one desires to hit, in contrast with what is actually struck. If one misses, they are a bad marksman; if an artist is misunderstood, they are a bad artist. Now, it is true, some art can contain multiple meanings... yet if these are meanings not intended by the artist, I will say that either one of two (or both) things have happened: the artist is sloppy and unskilled, or the viewer is ignorant.

Again, a fundamental distinction I am drawing, as you are certainly taking the stance that it is the effect, not the intent, that is important. Art, then, in your view, is no longer an expression of human will or desire, but has become only the medium of effect. The human spirit, then, no longer has potency within art. Instead we are at the mercy of art. Where then the soul of humanity within art? It is gone. Art in your view is no longer the expression of human perception, of contemplation and wisdom, of the essence of humanity, but merely us regugitating experience in its most basic form, so that the artist and, through that, all of us, are at the utter mercy of experience to the extent of artistic impotence.

I am unwilling to take that stand. To me art is an assertion of the human spirit through experience. To you, it is the suberservience of the human spirit under experience.

Aw, come on, does no one else have a stand on this? Thought? Lord J, my old nemesis, I'd love to hear your stand on this, as I am utterly uncertain about which side you would take. ZeaLitY? I think you would agree with me.

Jutty

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2008, 01:27:48 am »
I understand where you are coming from, we just have different views. It doesn't really mean either of us are really wrong you seek more knowledge from it while I prefer the entertainment side of it. I don't really care particularly what the artist was thinking when he wrote it I care more about how I relate to it. A good example is you can play a song to 5 different people and it's likely all 5 of them would have a different meaning for what that song meant to them.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrFTR9fucr8 Listen to that song, it doesn't have any meaning at all, but I still enjoy it because I like the music and the screams. I mean I can't really quite place what I like about the song lyrically. Sometimes I listen to stuff just because I like the breakdowns or the music.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 01:39:56 am by Jutty »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2008, 09:05:54 am »
So if you look at two paintings, and are unaware of the creator or origin of either, how do you decide which is art?  Do you assume both are art until you have reason to believe otherwise?  Do you assume neither are art unless something prompts you to?  By knowing the intent you can judge no art as art except for your own.

I may say of my own, "this piece was created in honor of my wife's love", and you would accept it as art?  But what if I said that and was lying?

BROJ

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2008, 03:40:58 pm »
An artist's art vis á vis said artist should never be considered true art. For true art is never completed by the artist, only left unfinished. So, it follows that since art does exist, it is only considered art insofar as an audience has considered it.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2008, 03:45:17 pm »
So if you look at two paintings, and are unaware of the creator or origin of either, how do you decide which is art?  Do you assume both are art until you have reason to believe otherwise?  Do you assume neither are art unless something prompts you to?  By knowing the intent you can judge no art as art except for your own.

I may say of my own, "this piece was created in honor of my wife's love", and you would accept it as art?  But what if I said that and was lying?

(Oh, and BROJ, my argument that follows also speaks against yours. I think what will follow shows that, in fact, not only does art exist, but it is not at all what you take it to be, being art only by the appraisal of the audience. I do not think this post-modern concept has much valididity to it, and I hope the following makes clear why.)

You mistake me. I am not talking about how you 'decide', I am talking in absolute terms what it is. If there is no intent behind it, it is not art, regardless of what decisions you make regarding it. That decision is irrelivant. Now, of course, everything has to have some measure of intent, but what I am speaking of is the artistic spirit.

I think you are taking a wrong line of questioning with this. I am not talking about how to be a critic. I am talking about the metaphysical concept. For me, the defenition of art is something that a human does with intent, imposing his or her will and conscious thought upon something. Whether or not they lie about 'why' they did it or not is entirely irrelivant. As is if I am aware of the creator. Again, the 'I' as the perceiver has nothing to do with making the thing art or not, and as for the judgment of if it is or not, well, it is generally pretty obvious if there is an intent behind it. Of course we are prone to mistake, and something that is not art then can masquerade as it, but that is outside the debate. Those are just pratical criticisms. I'm speaking of the concept here.

But yes, of course we make judgments. After all, if there were a lifelike model of a person, would you not, until you saw otherwise, work under the assumption that it was a person? Indeed, it may well not be, because to make a 'real' person requires many factors that a bare model simply does not have. Things such as thought and will. It is the same with a painting or some art. We work under the assumption that there is a thought and will standing behind it, making it art. Yet even as it is things such as thought and will through physical expression make a human, so too it is thought and will through media that make art what it is.

And I suppose that is the best analogy to take. You are basically taking art to be art in the same way that you could say anything that looks and makes something think it is human, IS human. It could be a model, a hologram, doesn't matter. These all are human. What I am saying is that simple appearance and the way someone sees it does not make the thing what it is. A hologram, no matter how convincing it is, no matter what it instils in the perceiver, no matter how they view it, is still not human. In the same way art halt of intent, no matter how much it might affect someone, is not art. Yet this is what you are saying. That appearances matter most, and make a thing what it is.

So to answer the question fully, our perceptive minds work under certain assumptions so yes, we naturally assume that both are art, and yes, you accept what someone says as art. It may NOT be, but in the same way... if we saw an entirely lifelike hologram, we might say 'this is human'. It might be a wrong judgment, but we work on the principle of real until proven otherwise most of the time. That goes for physical experience and art alike. However, some things can show more intent than others. A hologram that just is there, doesn't move, has form devoid of intent, will not much appeal to our sense of the real, and we will hardly be fooled into thinking it human. But one that emulates the movement and emotions and the sounds, that will likely decieve us into thinking it real (Nb. in the example of the hologram I am not counting the fact that some intent had to put IT into place. It must be viewed as an example in isolation.) And on the furthest end, a real human does have such intents. In the same way with art. Some, by our natural process of perception, will appear to have had artistic intent, but not have it. Some is easier to see than others. For example, abstract art is almost entirely absent of intent. It is, as it were, mere form without substance, like a beautiful shell of a hologram with no movement or emotion. Yes, it can appeal to the emotions, I'll not deny it. But it is not art. That is, art requires substances, else it is not art. After all, look at a rainbow. How beautiful those colours! How appealing! More than most canvasses. But guess what? For all its beauty, it is not art. Why, then? If art is merely how we percieve it, call the rainbow art! Call the trees and the clouds works of art! But look at how I phrased that. WORKS of art. Art requires work, it requires intent. And so just like the clouds and the trees and the arcs of heaven, any one of those things you mention, if there is no intended meaning, might have beauty to your eyes and ears... but it is certainly not art. Else you are forced to classify all those natural things in the same category.

That, unfortunately, is the problem you run into when you ostracise intent from the matter, when you make it a mere matter of perception. I could well to call that bright yellow sun in the sky a marvellous work of art. Indeed, it's a better work of art than any mortal artist has yet constructed! After all, I percieve it, it makes me feel a certain way, and so on and so forth, with all the same words you use for what you are calling art. Yet it is not. And the only difference is willful intent. Therefore the defining principle of art must lie upon the will, not upon the perception.

BROJ

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2008, 05:00:04 pm »
From what I gathered from your argument, you take a rather Kantian perspective on art.
Quote from: Daniel
For me, the defenition of art is something that a human does with intent, imposing his or her will and conscious thought upon something.
Your definition is vague. Is solving a Rubik's Cube art? It goes without saying, for a human to solve it, intent is implied, and it certainly requires thought.

Also, I believe from what I've read, you've mistaken what I've said. You say a rainbow is not art, because it does not have a creator. Deriving from that, I can only assume you believe I meant that art does not require a creator. Certainly it does. Just as a running man cannot exist without a process of running, and a process of running cannot exist without a runner, so too an artist cannot exist without a process or product of art, and a process or product of art cannot exist without an artist(or at least, a former artist). They may be different emphases of interpretation, but they are ultimately inseparable, and thus incomplete alone. Where I am going with this is that a piece of art is both an expression and a display, mutually inclusive─If it is not expressed it cannot take form, and if it does not form, in any way, it cannot be expressed. So it follows that art is not purely determined from intent either.

Edit:Forget the experiment, I read over your post too hastily.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 02:19:10 am by BROJ »

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: A Warning
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2008, 11:52:47 pm »
That was what I was looking for, DK.  That was a good response.  I wanted you to elaborate, so thank you.

I agree to a certain extent, actually, I just struggle with your artistic worldview because it's so absolute.