Author Topic: Stuff you hate  (Read 171386 times)

alfadorredux

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1140 on: April 09, 2011, 08:32:32 pm »
<Sigh> I don't recall saying anywhere that the average bully was an evil person. Most of them are victims too. However, that doesn't excuse them doing things that would be legally actionable if they were adults, and rewarding their bad behaviour is odious.

P.S.: My point to the whole argument is this: socialize. Believe it or not but great social skills are an ultimate suite of tools that has the potential to conquer a nation (read: Kim Il Sung)

Tell me, tushantin, are you trying to push my buttons?

...No, I take that back: you're probably just an extrovert. You enjoy being with people, and you can't understand that for some people, it causes severe stress even to be with people they like. And so you unthinkingly reinforce society's systematic discrimination against introverts. It doesn't matter in this world how smart you are, or how talented: if you can't bear to spend most of your time around other people, you're toast. No decent job, because the only way to get a more-than-entry-level job is through fucking "networking", and according to the paradigm you're presenting, no safety, either, because loners don't deserve to be safe, do they?

Do you have any idea how much human potential is wasted because of that fucking nonsense?

Syna

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1141 on: April 09, 2011, 09:10:56 pm »
Do you have any idea how much human potential is wasted because of that fucking nonsense?

I am more sympathetic to your view than tushantin's, and much more regarding bullying, but how would you have people live? I don't think there's a viable alternative paradigm to learning how to socialize, and I say this as a fundamental introvert.

I've seen a lot of introverts hide behind the label to avoid the difficult work of learning how to adapt. I know why they do it, and people do need to become more respectful of those who need more alone time than others, but I also think it's a copout.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 09:18:44 pm by Syna »

FaustWolf

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1142 on: April 09, 2011, 11:44:24 pm »
Oooh, there are considerable economic implications to alfador's argument. A job interview is already tough enough for a fundamental extrovert; I can just imagine how this process weeds out qualified introverts. Do you feel that reliance on Internet communication and texting may be easing this burden on introverts any? Or could it, potentially, if used in a certain way?

Sometimes I wonder what it's like to be in high school nowadays; the media gives me this impression that teenagers in the US live in little bubbles, incessantly texting each other. But it doesn't seem to have done much in the way of lessening the impact of bullying judging from the number of high school suicides related to bullying. Even the Internet seems a prime place for it to happen; maybe it's even easier to bully people when you can do it from miles away, and the psychological impact on the victim isn't necessarily less for the distance.


As for how to respond to bullying, there were times when I found great success in handling things similar to how tushantin suggests; but those instances were mostly minor misunderstandings that could be cleared up pretty quickly with a burst of honesty and good feelings. For the most venemous, repeated situation I had a problem with, it stopped only when someone with enough clout intervened. I think this is the key to what alfador's trying to get at with the culture idea: it's really up to the sports stars, the class presidents, or just the average joe who can call on a network of friends, to put the smack down on bullying when they see it. Responsibility is the price of privilege. I tend to think the continued problem with bullying is a result of our failure to communicate that message to student bodies.

Yadda, yadda. That's what I believe, at least for now.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 12:24:22 am by FaustWolf »

alfadorredux

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1143 on: April 10, 2011, 08:54:31 am »
Interviews are very, very bad, yes, but just getting to the interview stage, in an environment where the majority of job openings are never publically advertised (which means that the introvert is much less likely than the extrovert to even hear about them) is equally bad. For me, email helps a bit because it means I don't have to react in realtime and so can drop the conversation and come back to it when I'm feeling more able to deal with it; others' mileage is likely to vary.

By "culture", I wasn't just referring to the other students--they're only 50% of the equation--but the school administration as well. Punishing bullies directly may not work, but there are other simple measures that can reduce the problem, such as making sure that the bully and his victim are kept apart as much as possible. If the teachers and admin staff believe that bullying is "normal" and the victim should just "suck it up"--that is, if they're into blaming the victim too--not only can they make things worse through boneheaded enforcement of the wrong policies, but the attitude will tend to percolate down to the students (even if the students will never admit it).

(Edit: I hate making stupid typoes that completely distort the meaning of a sentence. ;P )
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 09:11:28 am by alfadorredux »

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1144 on: April 10, 2011, 02:28:40 pm »
Quote
...No, I take that back: you're probably just an extrovert. You enjoy being with people, and you can't understand that for some people, it causes severe stress even to be with people they like. And so you unthinkingly reinforce society's systematic discrimination against introverts. It doesn't matter in this world how smart you are, or how talented: if you can't bear to spend most of your time around other people, you're toast. No decent job, because the only way to get a more-than-entry-level job is through fucking "networking", and according to the paradigm you're presenting, no safety, either, because loners don't deserve to be safe, do they?

Do you have any idea how much human potential is wasted because of that fucking nonsense?
I'm not an extrovert, but you're not the first to assume that I am. I'm an introvert from the get go, someone who wants to take things easy, enjoy life while doing nothing. I don't enjoy being with people. Most of the times I have internal arguments with myself that I'm incapable of explaining to someone whether or not they're interested. I'm also selfish. Devilishly selfish. And yet I know all this is wrong! Life is precious, and I can't spend it on a chair! I constantly force myself go out. I constantly pressure myself to meet up with strangers and polishing my social skills, try turning some associates into trustworthy friends, expose myself to the outside world no matter how cold; all because I know the importance of it. I need to LIVE! I need to DREAM! And the more I do this, the more natural and confident I feel about it.

And you know what? I don't give a rat's ass about the concept of introverts and extroverts. The simplest idea is to do what you're comfortable doing. Nevertheless, I'm not reinforcing anything, just stating the facts. Loners are safer than socially active folks, but they're not better off. And talent alone is useless unless you have good social skills or know the right people.

Life is all about meeting the right people. Don't like it? Neither do I. But just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't fucking exist. You see most of uneducated capitalists? Social skills and some experience. Uneducated, corrupt politicians? Social skills. Kim Il Sung? Fucking social skills!

And let me tell you some stories: Beetles wouldn't have been famous if they didn't meet an agent to whom they had to sell out. Wright brothers would have been hammering bicycles all their lives if they didn't get the genius of one guy who actually designed the schematics of a plane. I went to an interview and showed my talents well, but the job was given to a lesser talented bloke who could speak better than me and was more diplomatic. My boss was the first to successfully expand Venky's at Goa, but he couldn't reap the rewards of his hard work thanks to some envious folks who talked their way into his position. He was being constantly demoted despite his talents, and in the end he resigned. His brother's a talented musician and famous at average, but the reason he's not known throughout the nation is because he hasn't met a godfather to cash-in.

And it doesn't end there, really. But think about it: human evolution depended on society, on being bonded, on communicating and interacting. On sharing knowledge. If you fail to communicate, what kind of a human are you? That said, even though I have a voice, even though I am sane, I find it difficult to interact with people. I make a joke, but unintentionally offend someone. I try to explain, but somehow people misunderstand me. But I don't go hiding inside a shell like a turtle. I'm going to change this world so it can recognize sheer talent when it sees one. Yet talent depends on efforts, and people won't understand you unless you can make them understand you.It's a jumbled up, fucked up world we live in.

Secondly, it's all science. There have been research on human behavior, and it turns out that people who are more actively social live longer, have better mental and physical health, are happier, more successful and more tolerant to pressure, stress and what have you. Then again, it makes sense. How are people more peaceful here at India and there at America than those people at Afghanistan? Why is there an ongoing racial war? Because India and America have racial diversity, thus making people more tolerant to differences, whereas places like Afghanistan have at most two similar races and this makes them violently intolerant to other races.

Quote
<Sigh> I don't recall saying anywhere that the average bully was an evil person. Most of them are victims too. However, that doesn't excuse them doing things that would be legally actionable if they were adults, and rewarding their bad behaviour is odious.
You didn't say it, but you didn't imply that. When I said "socialize with bullies" I was assuming that the person I'm talking to is intelligent enough to differentiate between them, seeing which of those bullies could be socially helpful despite the annoyance factor and which other is a psychopath. It's obvious doing bad things cannot be justified easily, but tell me, how many of your friends haven't done something seriously awful? Let me be frank: in my life I've done some horrible things, from ruining someone's life to breaking someone's leg with a hammer, locking a kid in a room for a whole day to giving someone a heart attack. I've even been called a Devil in sheep's clothing, and it's frightening how I'm capable of overpowering people without the need of physical strength. Till this day I regret my actions in the past, but people still tell me today that my good outweighs the bad. People still look up to me like I'm some great guy, even though I'm not sure what kind of bullies you've experienced in your life, but I doubt they're any worse than me.

Quote
By "culture", I wasn't just referring to the other students--they're only 50% of the equation--but the school administration as well. Punishing bullies directly may not work, but there are other simple measures that can reduce the problem, such as making sure that the bully and his victim are kept apart as much as possible. If the teachers and admin staff believe that bullying is "normal" and the victim should just "suck it up"--that is, if they're into blaming the victim too--not only can they make things worse through boneheaded enforcement of the wrong policies, but the attitude will tend to percolate down to the students (even if the students will never admit it).
I'm not really supporting bullying actions, but I do agree that things like that are normal. Even more common than any sort of crime, like murder or theft. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it: we, as a society, need to strive in making the world a safer place. And yet bullying isn't remotely as destructive as murder or armed robbery and controlling these circumstances are relatively easier with some help. Some bullying have led to suicides, and those are extreme cases which need to be taken with utmost care (yet, suicide is a coward's way out).

But kept apart as possible? Wait a second, simple peer pressure is also "bullying". Are you telling me you get worked up when someone calls you a Skunk? Would you complain if someone keeps poking you with a pencil? Would you cry if someone punches you? Alfy, you're better than this. Be a man. These exact kinds of pressures are necessary to make a person tolerant to social life, which is even more dangerous as you grow up. Keep a kid away from "all the bad kids" and he's likely going to grow intolerance to any sort of offense, even by close friends. They will also lack the capacity to calmly and intelligently deal with these kinds of pressures, making even the smallest of deals to lead them to suicide.

That said, as much as every human being requires social skills, you don't need to master it or anything. Introvertism is a good thing, as you begin to focus on things more important than socializing, and this has brought lots of progress to our world. Just a handful of necessary skill is essential to get you through things. You don't have to go out of your way to meet strangers, but just know enough to behave and evaluate. Treat everyone in life like a goddamned criminal, and you're screwed. Try hiding from it all, and you're also screwed. So where do you go?

Quote from: Sherlock Holmes
"I think there's always danger, wherever you go. You can either ignore it or wrap yourself in blankets so it doesn't hurt you, or you can walk towards it and dare it to do its worst. If you do the first thing then the danger takes you by surprise. If you do the second thing then you spend your time swaddled up in the dark, letting the world pass you by. The only logical course of action is to go towards the danger. The more you get used to it, the better you can deal with it."
Meh, there was a lot I wanted to say, but my head's achin...

alfadorredux

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1145 on: April 10, 2011, 03:21:54 pm »
@tushantin: Y'know, I could have predicted certain points of your response.

Shorter you, as far as I can tell: "Okay, the system is a little broken; here's how I think people should live with it to minimize the damage to them."

Shorter me: "Okay, the system is broken; it needs to be fixed so that the brokenness stops hurting people unnecessarily."

In effect, it's an argument between "is" and "should be", and it isn't the first time I've had one.

As far as I'm concerned, being safe from unprovoked attack--and bullying is generally an unprovoked attack--is a fundamental human right. Children do not lose that right simply because they're unable to articulate it or because the scale of their problems is usually small.

Being emotionally fragile does not prevent a person from being valuable to society, either. Being a great scientist or (especially) a great artist doesn't require the same amount of emotional resilience as being a political leader or a captain of industry. The stuff you're spouting is functionally the same as the arguments people used to use (and in some places, still do) to avoid making concessions to the physically disabled.

Oh, and, by the way--that macho-sexist phrase "be a man"? It's another social evil in and of itself, and just dropped my estimation of you by a couple of points. One person should not be required to be tougher than another just because he happens to have convex genitals and she doesn't.

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1146 on: April 10, 2011, 04:06:40 pm »
@Alfy: You can't fix something when you can't/won't learn adapt to it. You can't fix the Great Wall of China if you can't climb it. You can't fix Gentoo unless you know how it works (and you do know that). You need to learn the workings of the world to master that knowledge and skill, go to the top and change it for the better. You can't just yell from a couch and expect people to listen to you. Specialists are in need for things like that, and you can't send a handicapped person to fight a war for you; the best they can help is their own way, or some desk job, NOT valiantly risking their lives in areas they have no experience in. And this isn't discrimination, mind you. What else are they supposed to do?

I'm not talking just about emotional resilience, but actual social interaction. There was an article once by Andrew Pryce, and he stated that the best way an artist can be recognized is to market his work, regardless of talent. No matter how good you are, people won't recognize you if they don't know you. The more you expose your art to wide range of networks the better your chances of being picked up by companies looking for talent. That doesn't mean the art can suck, of course. Just that you need skills AND social interaction to get around. Now ask me this: how many Chrono Trigger fans even know about Crimson Echoes? Even though it was amazing, only fans who have been within the range of the news, a few websites that posted the info, knew about it. When I went around dA to collect art, I was surprised to find that 90% of those fans didn't know about it.

Quote from: Alfy
Oh, and, by the way--that macho-sexist phrase "be a man"?
I may have mistaken you here. Are you a woman? If so, I apologize. I thought otherwise. If you're a guy, shame on you. Seriously. Since when did the term "be a man" become sexist? Am I actually asking a woman to grow a d**k? Am I asking a kid to grow a beard? Am I asking metaphors to be taken literally? No, I'm asking you to grow up.

The way you point out, it seems like the word "man" has recently become a slang. What do you call a matured guy, "Homo-Sapien-With-Chest-Hairs"? Or is there a new term? Let me enlighten you:
Quote
(idiomatic) to "be a man about it"; to do the things a good man is traditionally expected to do, such as: taking responsibility for the consequences of one's actions; displaying bravery or toughness in the face of adversity; providing for one's family, etc.

In short, I was asking you to be mature.


P.S.: Here's a page.
http://www.topnews.in/health/socially-active-live-longer-loners-28681

And you can find a whole plethora of research data and other articles simply typing "Socially active live longer". I'm not as socially active as I need to be, and thus talking about this is quite shameful to me indeed. But I can't stand it when people call me a liar. "Functionally the same as the arguments people us" my butt!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 04:54:44 pm by tushantin »

Bard_of_Time

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1147 on: April 10, 2011, 04:57:49 pm »
WHY CAN'T YOU TWO GET ALONG.

Man, I hate cravings. All of a sudden, I've had an insatiable craving for an orange float. Except we lack vanilla ice cream. Mom thinks it's too early to get ice cream, Dad is out on duty, Alex is working on something for the paper and Sam is currently watching Lavos coming out of the ground whilst shouting repeatedly 'HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT'. ... and I'm broke...

alfadorredux

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1148 on: April 10, 2011, 06:40:12 pm »
@Bard_of_Time: We're arguing because of a fundamental disagreement in values that neither of us wants to see the other have the last word about, and neither of us has yet run down to the point where we're willing to agree to disagree. (The chances of either of us actually persuading the other are, effectively, nil, especially since I get the impression that we're mostly talking past each other.)

@tushantin: I don't expect everyone in the world to have the skills to fix a Gentoo installation, either--that's basic division of labour. Yes, having people around with publicity skills is useful, just as it's useful to have people around who know how to manage accounts, or fix a car or computer. This does not mean that everyone should be forced to acquire that skillset (there is a bare minimum necessary to be able to rub along with other people, but it's far short of what you seem to think is required). You also seem to have this peculiar idea that introverts cannot be effective communicators--it's possible to be good at a thing, but also hate it and want to do it as little as possible.

Let me present to you a couple of reasons that the article you cite could be technically right and still not support your conclusions:

1. If the experimental sample was largely composed of extroverts (90% of the population, so unless they made a particular effort to search out introverts, that's extremely likely--and even if they did make that effort, they probably ended up with a substantial number of people with undiagnosed Avoidant Personality Disorder and/or social phobia, who are not necessarily true introverts and would skew any attempt at satistical modelling anyway because of the additional stresses they experience), then it has nothing to say about the emotional health of introverts.
2. Society places constant pressure on people who are different to conform. Extroverts may be hounding introverts into an early grave.

Aside from that, it is not your business to tell me how to live my life, unless something that I'm doing is harming you. A longer life is of reduced value (from my standpoint) if you have to fritter away the time you gain socializing anyway. Quality over quantity.

My gender is none of your business, quite frankly, and should have no bearing on the conversation. If it helps, think of me as a neutered cat. And I think we have very different definitions of maturity, as well. (Hint: I'm probably older than you are--it's been more than a decade since I picked up my second university degree. While I will grant you that that does not necessarily make me more mature, most of what I've been saying here has come from firsthand experience, not something I read in someone else's article.)

The analogy to the physically handicapped was one that I chose quite deliberately at the time, but I probably should have been more careful in my choice of examples. There is a class of invisibly handicapped people, whose problems can be anything from spinal damage to moderate arthritis. Because there is nothing visibly wrong with them, other people will frequently become convinced that they aren't really disabled, and therefore refuse to help them (usually presenting the excuse that the handicapped person is "being lazy"). You seem to be preaching a variant of this: that of course introverts can't possibly have as much trouble dealing with people as they claim, and even if they do, they should be forced to interact with people--after all, it's for their own good, and they shouldn't be so lazy.

...

I've been crying into my keyboard while typing every post I've made in this conversation, because that's what my skewed biochemical balance causes me to do under stress even when I'm on meds. You are reiterating a whole bunch of things that people have said to me over the years, basically with the intent of convincing me that there is something wrong with me (and there is, but it isn't that I'm doing anything wrong or not trying hard enough, it's that my brain chemistry is off because I don't produce enough serotonin, and I'm brittle even with medical intervention.) I am an introvert, yes. I also have a diagnosable physical problem that affects my social functioning, and that can't really be fixed, only sort-of stabilized. Your rhetoric is that of a person who believes that the world should not be safe for people like me, that we should be punished for something that we cannot help...and you have no way of telling if a randomly chosen introvert is like me, because people with problems like mine are usually shamed into hiding it. "Be a man," remember? Bursting into tears for no apparent reason isn't considered appropriate adult behaviour, and no one ever believes that you can't help it.

There is a range of ability in every human endeavour, from social interaction to singing in tune. Never assume that there are no outliers.

Bard_of_Time

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1149 on: April 10, 2011, 06:45:05 pm »
@Bard_of_Time: We're arguing because of a fundamental disagreement in values that neither of us wants to see the other have the last word about, and neither of us has yet run down to the point where we're willing to agree to disagree. (The chances of either of us actually persuading the other are, effectively, nil, especially since I get the impression that we're mostly talking past each other.)
Okay so you're basically arguing for the sake of arguing and dredging up a lot of things that seem to be bothering you? I see...

To tushantin: Knock it off. Whatever it is you're bringing up (I'm just scrolling past at this point), stop it. Let this conversation die.
To alfadorredux: Back off. You don't need to give him a response, and that only makes the situation worse.

Stuff I hate: Watching my new friends bicker about something.

FaustWolf

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1150 on: April 10, 2011, 08:09:54 pm »
Yeah, sounds like it's time to let bygones be bygones on this one. Though I must say, I sure appreciate some finer points that their argument has revealed about people's experiences, for what it's worth. I just hope the wounds opened to enable this conversation don't stay open long enough to outweigh the benefit of communication.


tushantin, I do want to make a remark on your question about the phrase "be a man". You asked:

Quote from: tushantin
Since when did the term "be a man" become sexist? ...Am I asking metaphors to be taken literally? No, I'm asking you to grow up.

And then the wiki reference reads thus:

Quote
to "be a man about it": to do the things a good man is traditionally expected to do, such as: taking responsibility for the consequences of one's actions; displaying bravery or toughness in the face of adversity; providing for one's family, etc.

Already the problem becomes apparent in the language of that article: these are things traditionally seen as inherent within manhood, but not womanhood or within the being of people who prefer not to identify with either label. And yet, interpreted generally, these are good qualities for anyone to have. I don't think you meant it this way; the reason why the phrase is nefarious is because it carries the message regardless of the speaker's intentions. Language can betray the speaker because it belongs in part to the culture and not only to the speaker. That's my belief, anyway. Members of movements that aim to reclaim or otherwise gradually change the meaning of certain words and phrases would like to "have a word" with me themselves, perhaps.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 08:31:29 pm by FaustWolf »

Sajainta

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1151 on: April 10, 2011, 09:34:26 pm »
Okay so you're basically arguing for the sake of arguing and dredging up a lot of things that seem to be bothering you? I see...

That's basically 50% of the forum content, btw.

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1152 on: April 11, 2011, 02:03:59 am »
Bard_of_Time is right, we oughta knock it off. Alfadorredux has always been someone I've respected, and there's no reason to get into his/her bad looks. That said, arguements amuse and inspire me no matter how bitter they get, because (as FaustWolf describes) they open up various points the debater is exposed to, and I'm glad that I've learned a lot. As for the amusement factor, the irony that I was talking about "social skills" and losing my cool on the internet kind of made me chuckle.  :lol:

My apologies, Bard_of_Time and Alfy. No hard feelings.

@FaustWolf: I don't really care for unnecessary twisting of words, as they are simply means for people to get around. Taking a general term, a person becomes a "Man" when he matures from boy-hood, developing wisdom and sense of responsibility. The same can be said for a "Woman", and that doesn't really make it sexist. I really wonder why people would rather erecting illusionary literary barriers rather than face truth. Language should exist to make communication simpler, not complicate it.

Stuff I hate: As much as sympathize with certain classes, be it loners or religious, or whatever, I really hate people taking their position for granted. I wish these barriers were destroyed. No one classified as "loners" or "social elites", no "religious" or "atheist" fanclubs, no racial discriminations, no sex and tribal discriminations. And all that remains is just a single human being, man or woman, starting with nothing but conquering everything.

@Alfy: If you're interested in me replying to your post, let me know.

Kodokami

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1153 on: April 11, 2011, 04:35:31 pm »
While reading through this rather bitter debate, something of amusement caught my eye--

...and Sam is currently watching Lavos coming out of the ground whilst shouting repeatedly 'HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT'.

--and I couldn't stop laughing. :lol:

Lord J Esq

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1154 on: April 11, 2011, 04:57:29 pm »
WHY CAN'T YOU TWO GET ALONG.

Oh, rubbish. If all we ever did was agree with one another and agree not to discuss things where it turns out we disagree, it'd be like a nightmare. False pleasantness? Fake harmony? Creepy.

People ought to be free to express their convictions as long as they are willing to substantiate their arguments and refrain from bigotry. If that expression entails fierce confrontation, then so be it.

On this forum, you're better off not participating if a little dustup makes you uneasy.