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31
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« on: March 01, 2011, 07:14:15 pm »Quote
I am curious as to how: mind expanding on that?
The NA translations fit to the 't' what you had said in your posts. However, the slight changes, to me, suggest that artificial activation could be possible (like with the mammon machine) Energizing the sword vs activating the sword. Concentration vs difficulty. I'd say it is the sword itself that does indeed need to be activated from the retranslations - its needs to be activated as such as to benefit from the presence of dream creatures, which, as you said, Masa and mune were still active, still had a reaction to at least the lump of metal (in positioning) but it, the sword, wasn't resonating power from them. Sure, the sword when Frog first used it wasn't 'fully empowered', but it still had power. (queue dramatic draw sequence and earth slicing kabooms)
The game itself is an RPG that has to assign numerical values to the equipment, but its also possibly that when frog used the masamune against Magus that that was its full strength as Frog was focused then. (that is, Frog's determination/belief made the masamune an effective weapon against magus, and not so much that dreamstone/whatever was a particular weakness) The Cyrus subquest then didn't do anything power wise for the sword, just for how the user applies its might to all possible foes.
32
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« on: February 25, 2011, 01:27:07 pm »Quote
If it wasn't stabbed into it, then the transformation into the Masamune must have had some other explanation, which has been taken to be that Melchior finished it on his own....finished it prior to getting thrown through the lavos gates* thought that kinda information might help clarify things for others.
Anyway, I was skimming over some dialogues, and I noticed that you, thought, had something reversed too. Masa and Mune were in the blade. It's the broken blade portion thats gotten from Denado Mountains, and the hilt from frog.
33
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« on: February 25, 2011, 01:16:13 am »
Okay, I got a better understanding of what you mean in this. Also doesn't help I had the roles reversed on who was doing what with the masamune pieces for fixing it.
That said, you could draw a similar analogy, or rather I guess confirm, your theory for the masamune to that with schala's pendent. It's a dreamstone creation (supposedly) inhabited by a dreamcreature. The slight difference is that the pendant is also empowered by lavos. Between the three factors (material, doreen, lavos) its hard to pinpoint what does what, but like the masamune's nightmare form held by dario, the pendant could be a factor in the meld/mutation for the dream devourer.
Right, mind over matter. I'd say its more closely akin to mutual cooperation there. They confide in Frog (could probably point back to how they phrased it in the mt. dorano dialogues) who has had an experience that allows him to focus his determination and act without doubt/guilt. It's not just substance, its not just spells, its not just masa mune, its not just the wielder. It's several factors cooperating together.
Oddly enough, if you'd just posted the NA translations, I'd have lost support of the mammon machine activating the ruby knife. But, I think from how I see the retranslations and compare it to how lavos' power function throughout Zeal (and in Scala's pendant) it seems more likely to be capable of an effect similar to the process melchior would've personally done to activate the sword into the masamune.
That said, you could draw a similar analogy, or rather I guess confirm, your theory for the masamune to that with schala's pendent. It's a dreamstone creation (supposedly) inhabited by a dreamcreature. The slight difference is that the pendant is also empowered by lavos. Between the three factors (material, doreen, lavos) its hard to pinpoint what does what, but like the masamune's nightmare form held by dario, the pendant could be a factor in the meld/mutation for the dream devourer.
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Also consider that even after Melchior repairs the blade it isn't at full power: a sidequest has to happen for that to occur, in which Masa and Mune are the ones to make the final touch. The power of the sword is not just its substance, form, or whatever spells have been placed on it.
Right, mind over matter. I'd say its more closely akin to mutual cooperation there. They confide in Frog (could probably point back to how they phrased it in the mt. dorano dialogues) who has had an experience that allows him to focus his determination and act without doubt/guilt. It's not just substance, its not just spells, its not just masa mune, its not just the wielder. It's several factors cooperating together.
Oddly enough, if you'd just posted the NA translations, I'd have lost support of the mammon machine activating the ruby knife. But, I think from how I see the retranslations and compare it to how lavos' power function throughout Zeal (and in Scala's pendant) it seems more likely to be capable of an effect similar to the process melchior would've personally done to activate the sword into the masamune.
34
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« on: February 24, 2011, 01:45:12 pm »
I think there is a certain quality of importance to the sword for the masamune. If that weren't the case, i don't think there'd be a need to 'fix' the sword at all. If Masa and Mune truly just inhabited the hilt of the broken sword, another material could've been used to either make a new blade extension, or even just transfer the dream creatures into another weapon entirely. Maybe the japanese/real translation stuff phrases the masa and mune conversations differently, but prior to fighting that fight, iirc they wonder if Crono and co can fix them, possibly indicating that it's not just the sword that's broken, but there is a disconnection between the dream creatures too. Melchoir phrases the repair job as "activating the stone", so in the case of the mammon machine, I think the energy interaction did the job of "activating the stone" used to create the ruby knife.
That said, I find the transference of the masamune into the swallow to become the "mastermune" inconsistent and uncharacteristic. It's like everything i've seen from frog's history with the masamune is the complete opposite for CC. ie It was Frog's determination, Frog's mind that made the masamune a powerful force, more so than its previous user(s). But, then its the dream creatures that do it for CC. It was (presumably) the material use that allowed, or at least best utilized the effect of using dreamstone as the housing base for dream creatures. If that weren't the case, then wouldn't you want these creatures to inhabit the best material around? Or why would Melchoir even need to be a gifted blacksmith if these creatures could just float around into whatever they wanted? Heck, have them just jump into a person directly and let them demolish the world in a dream of super-fist-destruction.
That said, I find the transference of the masamune into the swallow to become the "mastermune" inconsistent and uncharacteristic. It's like everything i've seen from frog's history with the masamune is the complete opposite for CC. ie It was Frog's determination, Frog's mind that made the masamune a powerful force, more so than its previous user(s). But, then its the dream creatures that do it for CC. It was (presumably) the material use that allowed, or at least best utilized the effect of using dreamstone as the housing base for dream creatures. If that weren't the case, then wouldn't you want these creatures to inhabit the best material around? Or why would Melchoir even need to be a gifted blacksmith if these creatures could just float around into whatever they wanted? Heck, have them just jump into a person directly and let them demolish the world in a dream of super-fist-destruction.
35
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The Official Crono Discussion Thread
« on: January 28, 2011, 04:21:16 pm »Quote
Crono shouldn't be the center of the universe, but rather one essential part among many.
The idea made more sense to me since I considered the game to have been named after him in the first place. Wasn't till a couple play throughs later I thought "oh, his name doesn't have the 'h' in it" I still do consider his name coinciding with the title (and time travel for that matter) a factor in how he, as a character, is a trigger too.
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That plot device feels a little overused to me.
Video games and anime (and so forth) are rife with overused plot devices anyway. Its the how its used and not the what is used that's more important with those.
36
Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos, The Entity, and The Pocket Dimension
« on: January 27, 2011, 02:52:49 am »Quote
The Entity's role in the game is presented as very passive. The most active part it does is share its memories with the party: there is no indication that it wants them to destroy Lavo
And at that part of the game, the characters are talking about how you see your life flash before your eyes. Another aspect one could take in all this is that Crono and Co are seeing the last moments of the Entity because it is dying because of Lavos. It's 'passive role' might actually just be reflexes as it dies, and despite the journey through CT, they can't enough to prevent the Entity from dying.
Obviously that's not the case as CC happens as a direct of the Entity being more active, but I think it was an interesting thought path.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: The Official Crono Discussion Thread
« on: January 27, 2011, 02:43:43 am »
I had always figured Crono some sort of case of immaculate conception on the surface, but more in effect like a birth intentional made by the Entity. When I first saw the scene of Crono's death, he had a lightning effect about it, and it seemed to me that he was resisting being drained by Lavos. And when lavos couldn't drain crono, he changed gears and obliterated him instead. Then on the quest to save Crono, one of the qualities of the Time Egg is the person must be important to Time, or rather the Entity. So in that sense, I had assumed that Crono didn't have a dad because he was created by the Entity for the purpose of being the factor for making it possible to defeat lavos, and that's what made him important to time so that the Chrono Trigger would work for him in the first place.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Why kill off everyone we knew in CT?
« on: January 27, 2011, 02:37:04 am »Quote
My impression was that the Mystic plot against King Guardia XXXIII was a personal vendetta by Yakra rather than an organized effort to topple the Kingdom. And on the subject of the Dragon Tank, we never got any clue in canon that there was a potential enemy to use it against.
There may be an aspect of personal vendetta to Yakra at that time, but his methods are similar to, though improved, upon the attempt of the 600 era Yakra in his attempt to overthrow the kingdom. In my mind, I had figured the fall of Guardia to not be because of Porre attacking Guardia, but Dolton organizing the mystics from medina (and wherever else) to overthrow guardia. With the mystic's abilities to disguise themselves as people, combined with a few intentional slips (like Yakra) mixed with some gossip and Guardia could be up in a 'red scare' of their own. Things escalate and a scare becomes a civil outbreak of terror and eventually Porre (and Lucca) use some firepower to clear things out.
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If CC did one thing right as a sequel, it was the fact it made the idea of a Chrono sequel appealing...
I will say I really did dig the title of the game when I first saw it. As like the example above, however, I've been one of the sort of a fan that wanted more from CT and searched for ways it could continue. I do share some of the sentiments of the OP for this thread though, and while my 'evidences' over the years are probably more suited to simply appeasing what I already think, I would say it does seem more likely to me that Kato's approach to CC (and possibly even RD) was indeed that he was trying to "prove something". I think if he'd been less focused/obsessed on this superficial dilemma (as I see it) of indeed trying to prove something (or at least what I perceive he was trying to prove) and gotten some more critique on his work during development, CC would've been a much more balanced (and successful) sequel, and not a bi-polar product with an identity crisis.
39
Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: The Nature of Lavos
« on: December 17, 2010, 02:10:09 pm »
Well on one hand, if you consider the Time Devourer to be capable of destroying all of existence in its entirety, and in a universe set up where potentially anything can happen in any number of variable ways across an infinite amount of dimensions, that this being could be created in an number of iterations, and have an instance of just 1 being successful, meaning the complete obliteration of all time/existence in that universe.
... and that makes for a really lame story. So yea, its more likely the Time Devourer is a rare, even exclusive instance. One of the factors I've considered in this is that perhaps a) Lavoid being don't inherently have temporal abilities b) that the range of effect of a Time Devourer is actually only relative to the time/space of a given planet. c) not all planets visited by Lavoids have "an Entity".
Let's say the despite all of Lavos' inherent powers upon arrive on the planet, one of them is not the ability to alter time. In his consumption of DNA and power, Lavos can in effect, drain the Entity of that planet. In draining the Entity, Lavos then gains the ability to either manipulate time, or at least manipulate time relative to that given Entity. If that's the case, it supports more of the exclusiveness of the creation of a Dream Devourer being.
On the other hand, if you consider that all of the elements that created a dream devourer (according to "series canon") pretty much all originate around Lavos in the first place, it lends itself to a greater likely hood of multiple Time Devourers existing. In which case, they're either all relative in their effective threat range, or yea, all existence is constantly on the brink or it is already effectively destroyed. Kinda puts a damper on continuing a game/story series that way :/
... and that makes for a really lame story. So yea, its more likely the Time Devourer is a rare, even exclusive instance. One of the factors I've considered in this is that perhaps a) Lavoid being don't inherently have temporal abilities b) that the range of effect of a Time Devourer is actually only relative to the time/space of a given planet. c) not all planets visited by Lavoids have "an Entity".
Let's say the despite all of Lavos' inherent powers upon arrive on the planet, one of them is not the ability to alter time. In his consumption of DNA and power, Lavos can in effect, drain the Entity of that planet. In draining the Entity, Lavos then gains the ability to either manipulate time, or at least manipulate time relative to that given Entity. If that's the case, it supports more of the exclusiveness of the creation of a Dream Devourer being.
On the other hand, if you consider that all of the elements that created a dream devourer (according to "series canon") pretty much all originate around Lavos in the first place, it lends itself to a greater likely hood of multiple Time Devourers existing. In which case, they're either all relative in their effective threat range, or yea, all existence is constantly on the brink or it is already effectively destroyed. Kinda puts a damper on continuing a game/story series that way :/
40
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« on: December 17, 2010, 01:31:59 pm »Quote
I posit that Gaspar dreamed the End of Time location
When he's left to his own devices (ie you haven't talked with him on that given visit to the End of Time) isn't he sleeping? Makes sense to me.
41
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: The Original Time Line
« on: December 17, 2010, 01:29:10 pm »Quote
what happened to Magus?There are two things that I think might've happened to magus, with the end result being the same. Case 1) summoning is actually complete and Lavos enters his cambers. Case 2) The summoning of Lavos still creates a vast gravity well that gets Magus transported back to Zeal, where maybe not necessarily as 'The Prophet" (since he didn't need to predict the arrival of Chrono and Co) but as a significant contribution to Queen Zeal, which then gets him close to Lavos. End result that I see both cases, he gets drained (like he did in his encounter with Lavos with your team there) However, there isn't anything (per se) to keep Lavos from completely absorbing Magus' powers, powers which I'd say were arguably greater then even Schala's. So in my book, because a "dream devourer" didn't form as a result of Lavos absorbing magus through the original encounter, there wouldn't be one from Schala. I'm under the impression that the pendant was the important quality to the mammon machine, and not an "arbiter". Anyone with magic power could've done it with the pendant, Schala just had more power to continue to use the machine, and be directly influenced/controlled by Queen Zeal.
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Frog would revert back to his human form. So what becomes of Glenn?Just because he's human doesn't mean he redeemed himself. He secluded himself because he considered his actions a failure, and not so much is form. Without the Masamune repaired, he wouldn't confront magus on his own, and magus meets his fates end at Lavos' hand, (supposedly) ending the mystics war. So my guess is Glenn lives out the rest of his days in seclusion with his services no longer needed to protect Leene.
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Had Schala been saved, she could have reproduced. If she reproduced, thats life that does notThere's different speculations about how much genetic impact can occur in long terms from time travel. One consistent possibility is the in either time line Schala doesn't reproduce. The other possibility is that since the survivors are a limited population that have come to effectively renounce magic (what they consider cause for this whole lavos destroying the kingdom) it doesn't matter who reproduces what as their lifestyle is not effected, marginalizing any effect Schala descendants might have had.
As far as the pendant goes, its a dreamstone creation, and those seem to have a will of their own. As demonstrated, the pendant that was left on the Ocean Palace where Crono died still makes this back to his surviving friends. Course, I personally took that (years ago) to mean that Schala had gotten herself off the palace with it, and then from that point on was considered forgotten about otherwise she would have been on the Black Omen. I will add that I find (but won't expound on) too many errors with the schala to DBT to Dream Devourer, etc story progression.
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Smart Time
« on: December 17, 2010, 01:26:32 am »Quote
future you just happens to also find a way to go back in time, with the help of the entity.
i think this smart time works better, in particular to the case of the guru's (and janus) still getting thrown through time holes (black portals not seen anywhere else in CT) in the modified Zeal events.
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Need help understanding a key plot point from Chrono Cross (SPOILERS)
« on: October 25, 2010, 11:03:44 pm »
no, that makes alot of sense to me. Just the gamefaqs thread you do link is an example of this, you and another person admit to unintentionally placing a voice to his choice of text and in turn, take things in a way not intended by the poster. I've learned about that sort of thing a while ago, so I'll try to make the extra oomph to try to clarify myself, or use emotes here and there to try and place a better reading context to my choice of words.
Esp since I tend to come off as abrasive.
As far as CC goes, yea I recall there's more wonky to particulars than I remember. I was thinking quite a bit what I do recall over the past few days, and not while completely on topic to this thread, its brought me to think that if there is another chrono installment, it seems to me, it'd end up being like Advent Children, a movie addition when SE is doing well and not during a slump.
Esp since I tend to come off as abrasive.
As far as CC goes, yea I recall there's more wonky to particulars than I remember. I was thinking quite a bit what I do recall over the past few days, and not while completely on topic to this thread, its brought me to think that if there is another chrono installment, it seems to me, it'd end up being like Advent Children, a movie addition when SE is doing well and not during a slump.
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Need help understanding a key plot point from Chrono Cross (SPOILERS)
« on: October 24, 2010, 11:02:11 pm »
well, the nice thing about using a separate forum for inquiry, rocky, is you certainly get a different outlet on your perspectives. With the soft-acceptance of the idea that Bathesar is a megalomanic (like Zeality said — thought my take is he simply has an obsessive/compulsive personality) you're not going to get quite the same responses like you have from gamefaqs. To condense it for anyone else, its mostly a few pages worth of if/then question/answer that amounts to: was Chronopolis' time crash and accident? Yes, therefore Bathesar didn't calculate the entirety of Cross beforehand. Then it gets down into some aspects of FATE and chronopolis. For my little addition for you, rocky, (since I'm not making a gamefaqs forum account) is that the ghosts could have their perspectives in different times because not everyone dies at the same moment. If one person on the facility lives for ten years longer than other inhabitant of Chronopolis, then their ghost's reference of time is also going to be different. I'm just kinda guessing though since it's been a few years since I played Cross, and it'll certainly be several more before I can possibly coax myself into getting a copy to play again.
Hope I'm explaining that thought on the ghosts well enough :/
Also, there is a bit of a complication that I see with you analysis of the Mammon Machine & Schala post Ocean palace — the machine's presence on the Black Omen via Queen Zeal. Course, thats, as I see it, an issue in addition to a lot of other concerns I have about Cross' story altogether.
Hope I'm explaining that thought on the ghosts well enough :/
Also, there is a bit of a complication that I see with you analysis of the Mammon Machine & Schala post Ocean palace — the machine's presence on the Black Omen via Queen Zeal. Course, thats, as I see it, an issue in addition to a lot of other concerns I have about Cross' story altogether.
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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Only the Good Die Young- Crono and Kid as sacrificial lambs
« on: October 24, 2010, 10:00:46 pm »Quote
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Heh, if Beckler can make a Lavos clone....
But I guess it is too big to carry.
Don't need a lavos clone when one can just abduct lavos' spawn from the future. House breaking it will be a herculean task though.
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I like the idea in that Kid is in effect a schala clone as an option to preventing the horrible time-ending catastrophe. That feels a lot more consistent to part of Trigger rather than the whole "every previous character has in effect worsened the world from their involvement in Trigger and they die miserably for it."
As far as the time egg goes, from my play experiences from only the snes CT from years ago, I had gotten the impression that Crono was very important and his purpose was essentially to kill/stop Lavos, and maybe as a future ruler for keeping stability for Guardia. For one, he's the only character without an elaborated past, (placing more emphasis on his future, or his effect on the future) doesn't have a father (and as far as I could tell, no any mention of ever having had one either) and gets obliterated by Lavos instead of absorbed. So with the emphasis on the Chrono Trigger being used for people significant to time, I had thought Crono as some sort of anti-Lavos factor from some effect by The Entity. Esp when the SNES death scene looks like he's struggling against Lavos and not just walking and getting blasted away with a dumb look on his face for his last moment alive. The clone then is needed at the moment of death so that Lavos follows through with his actions. If nothing is left there, or not an adequate replacement, Lavos doesn't fire his doom beam to obliterate Crono, and instead resumes absorbing the party present at the ocean palace.
At least, that makes more sense to me than the anti-Crono propaganda Kato spouts off and then shoots off with effectively the most hypocritical, and non-sensical, character change ever via Schala to Kid.