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Other Topics and the Prerelease / What makes Chrono, "Chrono"
« on: February 16, 2014, 01:23:41 am »
Since I first starting reading and posting on these boards I've had some thought that if we could eloquently identify some reasonable disconnect between the fan-base(s) between Trigger and Cross, it'd save loads of efforts toward the monumental undertaking of getting a third, if not more, releases to the Chrono-verse.
As in previous opinions I've had between the games, I've looked to the interview posts by the staff and creators behind each game. As from the wiki entry on Cross: "Kato anticipated and rebuffed this discontent before the game's release, wondering what the Chrono title meant to these fans and whether his messages ever "really got through to them".[27] He continued, "Cross is undoubtedly the highest quality Chrono that we can create right now. (I won't say the 'best' Chrono, but) If you can't accept that, then I'm sorry to say this but I guess your Chrono and my Chrono have taken totally different paths. But I would like to say, thank you for falling in love with Trigger so much."[27] Tanaka added, "Of course, the fans of the original are very important, but what innovation can come about when you're bound to the past? I believe that gameplay should evolve with the hardware.""
I think the claim is valid, but I think the way its phrased is too defeatist — they simply acknowledge that audience perception might be different than the 'author' and that's that — and I do not agree with the defeatism.
So, as a way to look at what "chrono" means, I'm attempting to explore what makes Chrono "Chrono" as I think there are concrete devices that can be pointed out to establish consistent quirks on the player-experience that distinguishes the Chrono name as not only a stand alone (or something that stands apart from other IPs), but something that "stands the test of time".
After 10 or so years since I last played either through, I've started some new replays and I'm taking notes on what I think will be a series of parts that identify what makes Chrono "chrono" — or at least what I will narrow down what I hope to be unique elements for discussion.
So for now, this post will serve to introduce the concept and part 1, though I may later update a post to contain all parts or abbreviations of parts. So…
Part 1: Leitmotifs
I think part of a sort of universal quality from Chrono Trigger is the utilization of leitmotif's in not just the score, but the way they intermingle to convey unspoken elements to the story that are felt through the music. Some of the intentional aspects of leitmotifs are known as can be seen via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Chrono_Trigger
While other games and movies may use lietmotifs at moments, I think part of what separates Trigger from other games is just how thoroughly integrated leitmotifs (alongside theme and variation) are interwoven through a huge portion of the game and its story. While not all of these are going to be as prominent as Frog and the Masamune or the introduction and fight against Magus and so on, I think part of what has really stood out to me on the leitmotifs of Chrono Trigger is the absense of these in Cross AND then the disconnect from lietmotif devices in Trigger remakes* slight qualifier here as my current only experience is from the Playstation additions and not yet from the DS ones.
For as much as Cross' soundtrack and music is 'good' (if not great on its own right) I would in this way present the notion that the music isn't "Chrono" music as the story and gameplay for Cross simply doesn't allow for the same device-connections that worked for Cross. This does tie back to some of the character discussion differences between Trigger and Cross and one of the main aspects of why I think Chrono stands out is the core cast can be so integrated into the story and gameplay that leitmotifs can be used and used well. However, even the 'core' cast of Cross is not only too disconnected to establish strong individual moments, I was not aware of any combinations of leitmotif character themes to tie back into the story whole. Given how the basis of the story is comprised mostly of Serge and Kid, I feel that there should at least be moments and movements to address the concept, and perhaps they get a particular theme (kid does) but I would argue, or point out, the integration of that theme does not (seem at least) to fall into theme and variation to reconnect the player to other moments in the game.
I'm not an expect, let alone very well versed in music theory, so I might be misexplaining some of my idea here, or perhaps butchering some of the terminology so I'll try to demonstrate some of this concept with examples.
While my theme is based on Chrono, I think other square products realized this connection and used the method for other IPs: eg Xenogears.
This is a segment for Maria's theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBriJWTZctI
This is a segment for a variation on Maria's theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-XmWXJ-9w
but skip to 8:35 for the change to kick in and tie into the story elements present at this moment. Not only is the music incredible for the scene (in full) but the variations on that theme reoccur for other characters and other instances in the game to reconnect themes of the game to coincide with the music. And this is something that Trigger does as well, and it does fairly frequently (locations, characters and so forth have themes and other moments use variations of those themes)
Now other games may use some of these devices for a particular scene (like that of Aereth's Death) but I don't recall many successfully integrating the theme/variation/leitmottif combiation as well as Chrono Trigger except to one other memorable namesake: Star Wars (original 3 anyway)
Now I do notice some musical theming in Cross, but the motiffs used are, from what I gathered on the playthrough I finished yesterday, elements that tie Cross back to Trigger instead of composing new motifs unique and organic* to Cross.
I'd venture to think that the significance of leitmotifs to the experience of Trigger is of particular note because these are devices players don't need to have experience with or even intentionally notice as crafted devices for shaping their experience — there is a connection they form and it can be uncertain why, but still felt.
Earlier I mentioned the added content in the PSX Trigger version. In tying this all together, I think part of the added content complications the feel of Trigger because it tampers with the organic flow of the original* content, esp as manifest during leitmotific-moments (think i'm making up a word there)
Anyway, one of the most memorable leitmotific moments in Trigger is Frog and the Masamune — though I would want to explore the depths of the whole experience and movement, the comparison I want to make from exploring my idea of leitmotifs being a "chrono" element is just the trigger of Frog using the Masamune of the first time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miT7FbE8Dwk
The first link is the PSX animation: Part of the problematic flow of the animation of Frog using the Masamune to carve the mountain is that the focus keeps shifting back to Crono — this is not Crono's time to shine, he should otherwise be invisible at Frog's big moment, but the game keeps emphasizing Crono.
Here's a sequence breakdown:
(0:04) Scene opens, eye follows movement, direction of cape goes toward Chrono.
(0:10) Focus shifts to sword, but sword movement moves toward Chrono again
(0:18) Camera change, backview, scale puts emphasis on Crono
(0:27) Beam/Charge consolidates into another camera change that puts Crono back into the scene: secondary motion of the grass draws the eye toward Crono.
(0:40) Camera rotates back around to crono and gives him a similar (if not bigger) zoom and lingers on him for a few moments.
(0:46) Frog makes the Slash but there's Crono
Note* Frog makes a downward slash here uncharacteristic of his swordplay ingame. This is contrasted against the direction the cut goes (contrary to the mountain) and is the opposite of the composition of the SNES scene.
(0:56) Crono seen first after the cut is made)
(1:02) scene ends with a smile of approval from Crono.
(note 2: fairly sure Frog's swordstyle in this animation is japanese katana word and not really suitable for his sword/style)
There's simply too much of crono in this moment imo and the constant refocus on Crono feels sort of like how Cross focused too much on Serge.
In the snes version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3pRXgMv2GE
Frog requests the Masaume, Crono spikes it into the ground, and it takes initial contact and removal to get the reaction. Crono's involvment in the scene is tied to him handing over the Masamune to Frog, but after that, he becomes invisible and the focus remains on Frog: he is the central figure of the moment. He gets the theme, the lazer beam, the action cut and the finale say in the moment: more action. No further words are exchanged and Frog signals a charge with the awesome *shink* of waving the Masamune one more time (no shealth) and he rabbits after collateral damage falls (making the cut feel more natural in cause/effect: the pxs movie lacks this and I would say the movie version makes the scene feel like an Open Seasame password instead of an awesome cut)
Now, a point of contrast here: The breakdown I give on the comparisons between the original sequence vs the animation addition does take some critical analysis that may not be apparent to all/many viewers: They may see the animation sequence as superior cuz its animated. So this segment is a bit removed from the concept of Leitmotifs in Trigger as this portion is overextending the claim that these sequences coincide with the disconnect the Crono team seems to have in how they perceive what makes Chrono "Chrono"
So tl;dr Part 1 of my analysis of "Chrono" is the consistent use of leitmotifs through theme/variation combinations as integral to the game/story experience.
To my knowledge, I think only Xenogears did this to a compariable extent of Trigger.
*note* when I use 'organic' i mean: denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole: the organic unity of the integral work of art.
• characterized by continuous or natural development: companies expand as much by acquisition as by organic growth.
As in previous opinions I've had between the games, I've looked to the interview posts by the staff and creators behind each game. As from the wiki entry on Cross: "Kato anticipated and rebuffed this discontent before the game's release, wondering what the Chrono title meant to these fans and whether his messages ever "really got through to them".[27] He continued, "Cross is undoubtedly the highest quality Chrono that we can create right now. (I won't say the 'best' Chrono, but) If you can't accept that, then I'm sorry to say this but I guess your Chrono and my Chrono have taken totally different paths. But I would like to say, thank you for falling in love with Trigger so much."[27] Tanaka added, "Of course, the fans of the original are very important, but what innovation can come about when you're bound to the past? I believe that gameplay should evolve with the hardware.""
I think the claim is valid, but I think the way its phrased is too defeatist — they simply acknowledge that audience perception might be different than the 'author' and that's that — and I do not agree with the defeatism.
So, as a way to look at what "chrono" means, I'm attempting to explore what makes Chrono "Chrono" as I think there are concrete devices that can be pointed out to establish consistent quirks on the player-experience that distinguishes the Chrono name as not only a stand alone (or something that stands apart from other IPs), but something that "stands the test of time".
After 10 or so years since I last played either through, I've started some new replays and I'm taking notes on what I think will be a series of parts that identify what makes Chrono "chrono" — or at least what I will narrow down what I hope to be unique elements for discussion.
So for now, this post will serve to introduce the concept and part 1, though I may later update a post to contain all parts or abbreviations of parts. So…
Part 1: Leitmotifs
I think part of a sort of universal quality from Chrono Trigger is the utilization of leitmotif's in not just the score, but the way they intermingle to convey unspoken elements to the story that are felt through the music. Some of the intentional aspects of leitmotifs are known as can be seen via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Chrono_Trigger
While other games and movies may use lietmotifs at moments, I think part of what separates Trigger from other games is just how thoroughly integrated leitmotifs (alongside theme and variation) are interwoven through a huge portion of the game and its story. While not all of these are going to be as prominent as Frog and the Masamune or the introduction and fight against Magus and so on, I think part of what has really stood out to me on the leitmotifs of Chrono Trigger is the absense of these in Cross AND then the disconnect from lietmotif devices in Trigger remakes* slight qualifier here as my current only experience is from the Playstation additions and not yet from the DS ones.
For as much as Cross' soundtrack and music is 'good' (if not great on its own right) I would in this way present the notion that the music isn't "Chrono" music as the story and gameplay for Cross simply doesn't allow for the same device-connections that worked for Cross. This does tie back to some of the character discussion differences between Trigger and Cross and one of the main aspects of why I think Chrono stands out is the core cast can be so integrated into the story and gameplay that leitmotifs can be used and used well. However, even the 'core' cast of Cross is not only too disconnected to establish strong individual moments, I was not aware of any combinations of leitmotif character themes to tie back into the story whole. Given how the basis of the story is comprised mostly of Serge and Kid, I feel that there should at least be moments and movements to address the concept, and perhaps they get a particular theme (kid does) but I would argue, or point out, the integration of that theme does not (seem at least) to fall into theme and variation to reconnect the player to other moments in the game.
I'm not an expect, let alone very well versed in music theory, so I might be misexplaining some of my idea here, or perhaps butchering some of the terminology so I'll try to demonstrate some of this concept with examples.
While my theme is based on Chrono, I think other square products realized this connection and used the method for other IPs: eg Xenogears.
This is a segment for Maria's theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBriJWTZctI
This is a segment for a variation on Maria's theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-XmWXJ-9w
but skip to 8:35 for the change to kick in and tie into the story elements present at this moment. Not only is the music incredible for the scene (in full) but the variations on that theme reoccur for other characters and other instances in the game to reconnect themes of the game to coincide with the music. And this is something that Trigger does as well, and it does fairly frequently (locations, characters and so forth have themes and other moments use variations of those themes)
Now other games may use some of these devices for a particular scene (like that of Aereth's Death) but I don't recall many successfully integrating the theme/variation/leitmottif combiation as well as Chrono Trigger except to one other memorable namesake: Star Wars (original 3 anyway)
Now I do notice some musical theming in Cross, but the motiffs used are, from what I gathered on the playthrough I finished yesterday, elements that tie Cross back to Trigger instead of composing new motifs unique and organic* to Cross.
I'd venture to think that the significance of leitmotifs to the experience of Trigger is of particular note because these are devices players don't need to have experience with or even intentionally notice as crafted devices for shaping their experience — there is a connection they form and it can be uncertain why, but still felt.
Earlier I mentioned the added content in the PSX Trigger version. In tying this all together, I think part of the added content complications the feel of Trigger because it tampers with the organic flow of the original* content, esp as manifest during leitmotific-moments (think i'm making up a word there)
Anyway, one of the most memorable leitmotific moments in Trigger is Frog and the Masamune — though I would want to explore the depths of the whole experience and movement, the comparison I want to make from exploring my idea of leitmotifs being a "chrono" element is just the trigger of Frog using the Masamune of the first time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miT7FbE8Dwk
The first link is the PSX animation: Part of the problematic flow of the animation of Frog using the Masamune to carve the mountain is that the focus keeps shifting back to Crono — this is not Crono's time to shine, he should otherwise be invisible at Frog's big moment, but the game keeps emphasizing Crono.
Here's a sequence breakdown:
(0:04) Scene opens, eye follows movement, direction of cape goes toward Chrono.
(0:10) Focus shifts to sword, but sword movement moves toward Chrono again
(0:18) Camera change, backview, scale puts emphasis on Crono
(0:27) Beam/Charge consolidates into another camera change that puts Crono back into the scene: secondary motion of the grass draws the eye toward Crono.
(0:40) Camera rotates back around to crono and gives him a similar (if not bigger) zoom and lingers on him for a few moments.
(0:46) Frog makes the Slash but there's Crono
Note* Frog makes a downward slash here uncharacteristic of his swordplay ingame. This is contrasted against the direction the cut goes (contrary to the mountain) and is the opposite of the composition of the SNES scene.
(0:56) Crono seen first after the cut is made)
(1:02) scene ends with a smile of approval from Crono.
(note 2: fairly sure Frog's swordstyle in this animation is japanese katana word and not really suitable for his sword/style)
There's simply too much of crono in this moment imo and the constant refocus on Crono feels sort of like how Cross focused too much on Serge.
In the snes version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3pRXgMv2GE
Frog requests the Masaume, Crono spikes it into the ground, and it takes initial contact and removal to get the reaction. Crono's involvment in the scene is tied to him handing over the Masamune to Frog, but after that, he becomes invisible and the focus remains on Frog: he is the central figure of the moment. He gets the theme, the lazer beam, the action cut and the finale say in the moment: more action. No further words are exchanged and Frog signals a charge with the awesome *shink* of waving the Masamune one more time (no shealth) and he rabbits after collateral damage falls (making the cut feel more natural in cause/effect: the pxs movie lacks this and I would say the movie version makes the scene feel like an Open Seasame password instead of an awesome cut)
Now, a point of contrast here: The breakdown I give on the comparisons between the original sequence vs the animation addition does take some critical analysis that may not be apparent to all/many viewers: They may see the animation sequence as superior cuz its animated. So this segment is a bit removed from the concept of Leitmotifs in Trigger as this portion is overextending the claim that these sequences coincide with the disconnect the Crono team seems to have in how they perceive what makes Chrono "Chrono"
So tl;dr Part 1 of my analysis of "Chrono" is the consistent use of leitmotifs through theme/variation combinations as integral to the game/story experience.
To my knowledge, I think only Xenogears did this to a compariable extent of Trigger.
*note* when I use 'organic' i mean: denoting a relation between elements of something such that they fit together harmoniously as necessary parts of a whole: the organic unity of the integral work of art.
• characterized by continuous or natural development: companies expand as much by acquisition as by organic growth.
2
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Schala, a non-Lavos future.
« on: May 11, 2009, 05:54:44 am »
I was skimming through the game play around Crono's death when I noticed something I hadn't before.
Schala's last words given in the non-DS versions of the game include something to the effect "I will use the last of my pendant's power to send you to safety." Afterwords, she falls to her knees, and mourns for Crono. However, there's a nifty bit of a sparkle left behind in that scene, the remnants of Crono's possessions, presumably the pendant, left alongside Schala.
Well, if she's left with a near un-powered necklace, what if/why wouldn't she then just take the powered necklace and use it's powers to travel to safety. Heck, with juice to spare, she could then send off the non-glowing necklace after Marle and company. (as seen to be not-sparkly in the remains of the Earthbound village post tidal wave)
Schala's last words given in the non-DS versions of the game include something to the effect "I will use the last of my pendant's power to send you to safety." Afterwords, she falls to her knees, and mourns for Crono. However, there's a nifty bit of a sparkle left behind in that scene, the remnants of Crono's possessions, presumably the pendant, left alongside Schala.
Well, if she's left with a near un-powered necklace, what if/why wouldn't she then just take the powered necklace and use it's powers to travel to safety. Heck, with juice to spare, she could then send off the non-glowing necklace after Marle and company. (as seen to be not-sparkly in the remains of the Earthbound village post tidal wave)
3
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / What I'm talking about: The Cross fiasco
« on: December 03, 2008, 08:44:12 pm »
Rather than further pollute other threads and discussions pertaining with my direct distaste for Cross, and branches of posts pertaining to that, I'm going to compile "what I am talking about" into this single thread discussion. While I don't think this is the right placing for this, I don't see anywhere else in particular that is better suited. Regardless, I’ll be breaking this down into some of my greivences with Cross, and then a section on how my posts are being ‘evaded’, all tipped off with a conclusion to wrap together “what I’m talking about.” I'd also extend a welcome to anyone else wanting to throw in their 2¢ (or more) in this regard as I think that the addition of direct links between CT and CC manifest from CTDS brings into further light my biggest qualm with CC; that it weakens CT. Assuming of course that anyone else reads this, and lives o_O
I.
Take this quote I’ve picked off from another forum that I found on the research I’ve done pertaining to Kato and Cross.
“Chrono Cross was Masato Kato expressing his distaste for the original and the people he was originally forced to work with on CT by cheapening the original and forcing people to accept any sequel on his terms (he only got to write the 12000 BC scenario, hence the change from the rest of the game). Plain and simple. After years of pondering what went wrong, I've concluded it was just a very ego-driven project as opposed to one with any interest in what people liked about the original (hence, the relatively low number of people who like both games or at least feel strongly towards both). I'll go so far as to bet Radical Dreamers (the SNES gaiden) was based on events he had written for the game and had rejected by the scenario writers and was able to get made into a low-budget visual novel. And ironically, its' status as the original's sequel is probably the main thing that helped it achieve the success and positive feedback it did. Hey, that's why I bought my copy. I personally don't want to see the series continued under the same circumstances. Another Square-Enix (d'oh) collaboration with a similar team as the first? Sure. Another clash with Kato's ego and over-convoluted storytelling to tell a story of little substance? I wouldn't even bother reading the previews.” -GoldfishX
I agree with the sentements there, and utilize that quote because it shortens many of my own sentiments. Much of Cross is an ego driven project derived from his distaste for the Trigger project. Kato’s interview from Procyon studio reveals this painful experience for him, and he further relates what he thinks of his work on Radical Dreamers, a project made from ‘his own interests’; “I mean... there's no way that I could allow people to play that game. I read my scripts from back then, and it's embarassing.”
The driving factor of the game, or how the plot works out, is the elaborate plan all schemed together to work out by a single person, Masato “Gaspar” Kato. While players ‘could’ make particular choices in regards to various decisions within the game, the most dramatic ones actually have little impact on the game itself, or the characters ability to make changes, because they’ve already been decided how they’re going to occur. This is made evident even further in how characters end up being ‘uncharacteristic’ of themselves. Example: The transformation from “Schala” to Kid (and her nihilistic attitude) is more the manifestation of Kato’s own emotion, (something he can't kill...) rather than continued character development from ‘nature’ and ‘nuture’. Authorship liberties taken for the convenience of his plot, rather than utilizing developed characterization to create a story. It's poor writting gimmicks rather than skillful tools used for the craft. (Gimmicks like these are used to blow out any child's story into a full length feature film that has a chance to make money, even before people finish turning the pages.) Plot drives are forces of action, rather than choices, or even pressed choices with consequences. Additionally, just about any good point of Cross is the result of intentional implementation of gameplay success for the purposes of just selling the game. It’s not meant to leave a legacy (or even continue it) be great, or have an impact comparable to its predicesor, (or any other story impression that an author has his heart in is trying to achieve) its simply there to sell the game. Nowadays I can buy a "good" appliance, but many are actually designed to have a limited product life so one has to buy the product again, rather than years ago when something was pricer, but its lasted a long time. Granted, certain technologies are actually better, but its sales gimmicks and not so much quality craftsmanship. Cross is the same boat.
Giving the reviews that ‘trusted’ game reviewers have placed on Cross, it is a 'good game’. Considering the regards that people have for it, in how its perceived in relation to other games, it effectively has no lasting impression on its own that is noteworthy. Despite claims that its story is deep or its characters blah blah blah, it doesn't recieve any form of recognition to demonstrate this. It isn’t a “best game” or “top” anything. Heck, its not even a consideration in gamefaqs dated poll, which is a sizeble expression of many peoples opinions. So these ‘great scores’ this game receives actually aren’t an indication of how ‘good’ is it, but rather just another persons’ expressed opinion, one that apparently isn’t shared on a scale outside of the bandwagon. This sentement seems to be shared by the producers of the game title largely because they not only haven’t introduced a continuation of the game (despite claiming they have interests and plans to do so) and instead continue to flub their previous success in our face several times. People accept various faults from Cross as “because Kato said so” rather than “because it developed that way.” Its like the Chinese food of video game stories, tastes great to some, but overall just doesn't stick with you. So is it 'bad' because its 'not as good?' It is when its dragging down another product with it.
From a writing standpoint in comic books, they fully allow fandom to become part of the stories, and explicitily rip ideas and sell them back to their source, because its ‘their product.’ Well why the hell doesn’t square do something similar to that then? Well, after years of hostile resistance to this, I’d rather say they are in the re-re-re-release of CT. Contrary to previous sentiments the production teams shared in regards to connections between Trigger and Cross, we’re sold added content pretty much derived from the fanbase, rather than premeditated stories.
Example? Compare
“but Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history. But if I start to explain this, it will take me a long time to finish, so I'll stop myself here. (laughs) As it doesn't directly have anything to do with the story of Cross, we cut the details out of the game. “
to
Dalton: “I’ll raise the greatest army the world has ever seen in Porre...”
Yea, that certianly took a long time to finish. The changes made from one game to be a totally different experience that isn’t a sequel (Cross is Cross and not Trigger 2) aren’t true anymore, or that rather the particular image needed for product sales isn't being used anymore, and instead another is used in its place. We’re simply being shoveled crap, and taking it all in the name of Chrono. ‘Good’ is a comparative stament between multiple options, as in ‘good’ ‘better’ ‘best’
Cross is a ‘good’ game because its designed to utilize the best tools Square had at the time to make a product designed to sell, despite prior staffing greviences. It’s like Joe the Camel saying smoking, or cigarettes, are ‘good’. Its a ‘good’ by appearances; under the gilding, is a load of literal crap that is corroding its surroundings. Kato says is could be better ("Looking back on the works, I still get this feeling that there were a lot of things that were still left undone though") and "I won't say the "best" Chrono."
Frankly, I feel this is a decent enough start for now (I can always say more in direct connection to the rebuttals that may come) and would now change my focus to how my previous thread posts where evaded.
II.
1. The possibility of a Chrono Cross remake, Page 3.
I didn't ask about graphics gameplay or music. How can anyone think its a fair comparison to weigh a game that you didn't finish in comparison to one you practically worship? Oh course there isn't going to be comparable characterization to you if you didn't see it in action! That's a trite post. And here begins the evasion " I don't need to explain how awesome Cross is." You're talking to a skeptic who doesn't share your opinions, so yes, yes you do need to explain how 'awesome' it is, otherwise you're just dodging my points.
2. Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course) page 16
Not a single responce even indirectly tied to anything I said here. That’s evasion.
3. Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course) page 19
Bring out my own arguements? I did and they were ignored (evaded) I’m not the one posting a picture (that you didnt’ even make) and continuing to point at it as the ‘ultimate’ of any particular arguement.
4. “” “” page 20
So apprently refuting your ‘facts’ and demonstrating that they aren’t ‘facts’ (at least in how the given information is used) is rambling about the sig?* Its two mentions, and not even lengthy in comparison (particularly to my habits) Unless you count other posters, (who guess what, I AM NOT) then that is hardly dwelling on or rambling about anything. Its the basis of an actual discussion/arguement, one that’s once again, evaded. There isn’t anything else in that post to “look at” when all there is is “point as sig” which is the part I was dealing with in relation to fallacies. Context, use it.
5. “” “” page 21
I wasn’t the one talking about character development. I didn’t participate in that stream of posts. If you’re refering at this time to the mention of comparisons that I issued in a different thread, you still missed the context. Failure to deal with, refute or otherwise comment on “what I am talking about” in the context it is being talked about is evasion.
*what's 1.5 million sales compared to 2 millions sales in two months, let alone 3 rereleases? or heck, what's 1.5 millions sales if no one has anything exceptional to say about it? Xenogears release sale is 1.19 million copies, and it actually is considering the "best" or "top" compared to other video games. Super Mario RPG is 1.47, and again, its cited to be 'best' and even 'desired'.
If you don’t or can’t understand that much, then don’t act like you’re “not afraid to go in a heavy discussion about it.” When I get 'heavy' its more than just graphics and cute character designs.
I.
Take this quote I’ve picked off from another forum that I found on the research I’ve done pertaining to Kato and Cross.
“Chrono Cross was Masato Kato expressing his distaste for the original and the people he was originally forced to work with on CT by cheapening the original and forcing people to accept any sequel on his terms (he only got to write the 12000 BC scenario, hence the change from the rest of the game). Plain and simple. After years of pondering what went wrong, I've concluded it was just a very ego-driven project as opposed to one with any interest in what people liked about the original (hence, the relatively low number of people who like both games or at least feel strongly towards both). I'll go so far as to bet Radical Dreamers (the SNES gaiden) was based on events he had written for the game and had rejected by the scenario writers and was able to get made into a low-budget visual novel. And ironically, its' status as the original's sequel is probably the main thing that helped it achieve the success and positive feedback it did. Hey, that's why I bought my copy. I personally don't want to see the series continued under the same circumstances. Another Square-Enix (d'oh) collaboration with a similar team as the first? Sure. Another clash with Kato's ego and over-convoluted storytelling to tell a story of little substance? I wouldn't even bother reading the previews.” -GoldfishX
I agree with the sentements there, and utilize that quote because it shortens many of my own sentiments. Much of Cross is an ego driven project derived from his distaste for the Trigger project. Kato’s interview from Procyon studio reveals this painful experience for him, and he further relates what he thinks of his work on Radical Dreamers, a project made from ‘his own interests’; “I mean... there's no way that I could allow people to play that game. I read my scripts from back then, and it's embarassing.”
The driving factor of the game, or how the plot works out, is the elaborate plan all schemed together to work out by a single person, Masato “Gaspar” Kato. While players ‘could’ make particular choices in regards to various decisions within the game, the most dramatic ones actually have little impact on the game itself, or the characters ability to make changes, because they’ve already been decided how they’re going to occur. This is made evident even further in how characters end up being ‘uncharacteristic’ of themselves. Example: The transformation from “Schala” to Kid (and her nihilistic attitude) is more the manifestation of Kato’s own emotion, (something he can't kill...) rather than continued character development from ‘nature’ and ‘nuture’. Authorship liberties taken for the convenience of his plot, rather than utilizing developed characterization to create a story. It's poor writting gimmicks rather than skillful tools used for the craft. (Gimmicks like these are used to blow out any child's story into a full length feature film that has a chance to make money, even before people finish turning the pages.) Plot drives are forces of action, rather than choices, or even pressed choices with consequences. Additionally, just about any good point of Cross is the result of intentional implementation of gameplay success for the purposes of just selling the game. It’s not meant to leave a legacy (or even continue it) be great, or have an impact comparable to its predicesor, (or any other story impression that an author has his heart in is trying to achieve) its simply there to sell the game. Nowadays I can buy a "good" appliance, but many are actually designed to have a limited product life so one has to buy the product again, rather than years ago when something was pricer, but its lasted a long time. Granted, certain technologies are actually better, but its sales gimmicks and not so much quality craftsmanship. Cross is the same boat.
Giving the reviews that ‘trusted’ game reviewers have placed on Cross, it is a 'good game’. Considering the regards that people have for it, in how its perceived in relation to other games, it effectively has no lasting impression on its own that is noteworthy. Despite claims that its story is deep or its characters blah blah blah, it doesn't recieve any form of recognition to demonstrate this. It isn’t a “best game” or “top” anything. Heck, its not even a consideration in gamefaqs dated poll, which is a sizeble expression of many peoples opinions. So these ‘great scores’ this game receives actually aren’t an indication of how ‘good’ is it, but rather just another persons’ expressed opinion, one that apparently isn’t shared on a scale outside of the bandwagon. This sentement seems to be shared by the producers of the game title largely because they not only haven’t introduced a continuation of the game (despite claiming they have interests and plans to do so) and instead continue to flub their previous success in our face several times. People accept various faults from Cross as “because Kato said so” rather than “because it developed that way.” Its like the Chinese food of video game stories, tastes great to some, but overall just doesn't stick with you. So is it 'bad' because its 'not as good?' It is when its dragging down another product with it.
From a writing standpoint in comic books, they fully allow fandom to become part of the stories, and explicitily rip ideas and sell them back to their source, because its ‘their product.’ Well why the hell doesn’t square do something similar to that then? Well, after years of hostile resistance to this, I’d rather say they are in the re-re-re-release of CT. Contrary to previous sentiments the production teams shared in regards to connections between Trigger and Cross, we’re sold added content pretty much derived from the fanbase, rather than premeditated stories.
Example? Compare
“but Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history. But if I start to explain this, it will take me a long time to finish, so I'll stop myself here. (laughs) As it doesn't directly have anything to do with the story of Cross, we cut the details out of the game. “
to
Dalton: “I’ll raise the greatest army the world has ever seen in Porre...”
Yea, that certianly took a long time to finish. The changes made from one game to be a totally different experience that isn’t a sequel (Cross is Cross and not Trigger 2) aren’t true anymore, or that rather the particular image needed for product sales isn't being used anymore, and instead another is used in its place. We’re simply being shoveled crap, and taking it all in the name of Chrono. ‘Good’ is a comparative stament between multiple options, as in ‘good’ ‘better’ ‘best’
Cross is a ‘good’ game because its designed to utilize the best tools Square had at the time to make a product designed to sell, despite prior staffing greviences. It’s like Joe the Camel saying smoking, or cigarettes, are ‘good’. Its a ‘good’ by appearances; under the gilding, is a load of literal crap that is corroding its surroundings. Kato says is could be better ("Looking back on the works, I still get this feeling that there were a lot of things that were still left undone though") and "I won't say the "best" Chrono."
Frankly, I feel this is a decent enough start for now (I can always say more in direct connection to the rebuttals that may come) and would now change my focus to how my previous thread posts where evaded.
II.
1. The possibility of a Chrono Cross remake, Page 3.
I didn't ask about graphics gameplay or music. How can anyone think its a fair comparison to weigh a game that you didn't finish in comparison to one you practically worship? Oh course there isn't going to be comparable characterization to you if you didn't see it in action! That's a trite post. And here begins the evasion " I don't need to explain how awesome Cross is." You're talking to a skeptic who doesn't share your opinions, so yes, yes you do need to explain how 'awesome' it is, otherwise you're just dodging my points.
2. Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course) page 16
Not a single responce even indirectly tied to anything I said here. That’s evasion.
3. Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course) page 19
Bring out my own arguements? I did and they were ignored (evaded) I’m not the one posting a picture (that you didnt’ even make) and continuing to point at it as the ‘ultimate’ of any particular arguement.
4. “” “” page 20
So apprently refuting your ‘facts’ and demonstrating that they aren’t ‘facts’ (at least in how the given information is used) is rambling about the sig?* Its two mentions, and not even lengthy in comparison (particularly to my habits) Unless you count other posters, (who guess what, I AM NOT) then that is hardly dwelling on or rambling about anything. Its the basis of an actual discussion/arguement, one that’s once again, evaded. There isn’t anything else in that post to “look at” when all there is is “point as sig” which is the part I was dealing with in relation to fallacies. Context, use it.
5. “” “” page 21
I wasn’t the one talking about character development. I didn’t participate in that stream of posts. If you’re refering at this time to the mention of comparisons that I issued in a different thread, you still missed the context. Failure to deal with, refute or otherwise comment on “what I am talking about” in the context it is being talked about is evasion.
*what's 1.5 million sales compared to 2 millions sales in two months, let alone 3 rereleases? or heck, what's 1.5 millions sales if no one has anything exceptional to say about it? Xenogears release sale is 1.19 million copies, and it actually is considering the "best" or "top" compared to other video games. Super Mario RPG is 1.47, and again, its cited to be 'best' and even 'desired'.
If you don’t or can’t understand that much, then don’t act like you’re “not afraid to go in a heavy discussion about it.” When I get 'heavy' its more than just graphics and cute character designs.
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