Messages

166

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Spekkio

« on: November 12, 2008, 12:51:52 am »

However, once Crono and everyone has messed with the time stream something happened with the other two... Melchior was placed on Mt. Woe, so where was Belthasar and Gaspar?

Melchior was imprisoned on Mt. Woe for opposing the Queen.  Since he's credited with making the mammon machine, and a means to stop it, I suppose that in either timeline the mammon machine wasn't originally created for use in conjunction with Lavos, as once its used for that, Malchoir, and presumably the other gurus, tries to stop the queen.  It is an interesting question about where Belthasar and Gasper were.  My guess is it is a story oversight.  I'd also say what happens to schala is a story oversight.  At least one of the guru's may have been working on the blackbird/ocean palace.  It says they at least design them, so I wouldn't put it past them to have been part of the construction process.

If the Entity decided where to send the Gurus (and Magus), then it likely also decided where to send Spekkio.

  This makes sense to me here.  I've always felt that the time gates are a mix of Lavos and the entity essentially playing chess with time travelers.  I find that Magus being separated from crono's team during the same time well to be an example of meddling.  In my book, Magus getting drained of powers in Zeal is sooner than 600 ad, and gives Lavos more power to accomplish his purposes. 

f that is true then that would mean he definetly like Gaspar got thrown to that time period, so then how did he get there?

  If spekkio was locked away in the north palace like I suppose, then I'd assume the he, and all other objects of the north palace fell victim to time travel.  Take the sun stone for instance.  If the stone wasn't affected by time travel, and thus only accessible in the sealed north palace/future, then I'd think it'd need to exist prior to zeal, otherwise it wouldn't have been charged for the kind of zeal to use, as it takes aeons to charge up into usable power.

167

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: is chrono trigger better then radicel dreamers and chrono cross

« on: November 11, 2008, 03:32:32 am »

None of that seems to be talking against RD, though, which DID have interesting & developed characters.

  Well, i certainly find the aspect of amnesia a much better path than being thrown to a void of nothingness, combining with a big bunch of nothingness, only to be able to consume everything to nothingness.  I do hold Rd in better regard than CC, especially by the title.  Dreaming is a reoccurring element in CT, and its nice that they tried to continue with that in the first try.

Um, both of those movies have time travel in them to some extent...

Yea, which goes along with what I was saying about my dislike for weak time travel stories, or 'didn't really happen' stuff.  Now, i did mess up the analogy there.  See, First Contact is alot of 'right' and Generations was a lot of 'wrong'.  I tend to get caught up in my rants and assume people with hold similar regards to mine without proper clarification, esp in regards to voyager.  I lived in Las Vegas where they had the "star trek: experience" so while I don't follow trek much, I do end up hearing alot of opinions about it, which generally end up being negative associations to Generations and Voyager compared to the rest of the series and movies.  And after seeing them myself, I agree with those sentiments.

168

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Spekkio

« on: November 10, 2008, 11:32:42 pm »

Well technically Spekkio's fourth form is actually an Omicrone, an enemy that just triggers other enemies to come on screen--he can be found in 12000 B.C., but he can't be battled without modification.

There are two other appearances.  The first is when escaping prison. If you free Fritz, you are attacked by an Omicrone. (or at least the same sprite model)  The second occurs if you try to buy from the merchant in Madina village.  Both appearances are 1000 AD.

Well, is it more probable that a creation by either Gaspar or Belthasar could unlock a person's inner magic?

I'd say yes.  When searching through the various cities of Zeal, there is a craftsman striving to create tools that increase a person's abilities, ie the Tabs.  Since they are scattered through time and found throughout the game, I'd say he was successful, or rather, they were successful in the past, and what success they had prior were sealed away.  Various quotes from the people of Zeal reveal that they had other forms of power drawn from the planet, instead of Lavos, and these were sealed up in the north palace.  If Spekkio is a creation of Zeal, then its possible that he too was in the north palace, and by whatever means, ended up in the End of Time.  Perhaps his enigmatic properties, in conjunction with traveling with Gasper, it what caused the violations of space/time that triggered their arrival at the End of Time, rather than simply being flung there by Lavos.

So, if Spekkio was created by Zeal, as a sealed weapon in the days of relying on the energies planet, then Lavos does surpass him, and thus creates a limiting factor.

Now, i might be going on a limb here,  but I suspect that Spekkio, and pretty much any/all of the major creations of the guru's rely on some factor or connection to dreamstone.  Now, Masa and Mune are dream creatures effectively made real, and Spekkio is probably similar – both are subject to form changes.  Perhaps Spekkio's forms are then based on the 'dreams' of those around him, rather than just a singular dream.

169

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: The Future of Chrono (One Possibility)

« on: November 09, 2008, 05:25:35 am »

I doubt a new installment would truly retcon Chrono Cross...though I suppose you could see the dimensions merging as a kind of retcon...? 

I think the dimension merge is a self retcon.  Having an end situation where nobody involved is going to know that the dimension split in the first place pretty much is like saying "this didn't really happen anyway'  One could say that what they did will have an unknown impact on the future,  but that can be said about any story that you just up and introduce any character to it.   In that regard, I would say that anything that doesn't pertain to this dimension split and/or Serge is essentially admitting that nothing was accomplished that should not have happened anyway. 

Also, I will NEVER understand how wackos think somehow that sequels 'tarnish' the originals in any way. The originals are still always going to be there for you if you happen to like them more...hell, not even remakes can change that fact...That's such malarkey BS that's just in people's heads...

When sequels try to explain or give meaning to otherwise loose ends, ambiguous events, or any other mystery , and then give less than satisfactory results, then it certainly can alter perceptions.  It's not the same wonder or mystery or hope that it was before.  I will say, for me, this is unique to video games and is more of a mechanics issue, and even then my actually liking an original any less is rare, but it still happens. 

An example for me is Parasite Eve.  I wished that I hadn't played the sequel as it has lessened my view of the first game, I still have alot of praise for numero uno, but not as much with the knowledge of the second one looming over me.

170

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: is chrono trigger better then radicel dreamers and chrono cross

« on: November 09, 2008, 04:52:10 am »

For me, rpg's are more like a story-book, as opposed to other genres that may be more like movies. As far as story telling goes,  both RD and CC aren't as good as CT.  The plot is forcefully made 'complex' by using cryptic language, shoddy explanations for events that occur with minimal reasoning, or even efffective purpose. Basically, all the flaws that weaken the Xenosaga series compared to Xenogears.  Behind the flashy choice of words and graphics, you don't have much there, esp when you have some 40 odd playable characters with little tie in to the plot, and little effort to develop any kind of interest in them.  Least Xenosaga had the character development and interest.

 The flaw is how CC is a story that pretty much didn't happen – and to me, stories like that should be changed to be 'didn't happen' and just create something with events that actually matter and effect something. That's generally why I find alot of time-traveled based stories weak.  Example being comparing the difference between Star Treks' First Contant, and Star Trek Generations, or heck, several episodes of Voyager that ended up being simulations or fake Enterprise, or whatever.
Granted, the 1 thing that did 'happen' in CC is schala being 'freed' from Lavos, but I think that scenario is poorly created, that it should'nt have happened anyway, or at least could've been made alot better.  CC may have tied up a few loose ends, but I think their choice of ends to tie was fairly weak.

171

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Spekkio

« on: November 09, 2008, 04:36:07 am »

Nonetheless, Spekkio's transformations don't seem to be from his own will

that does make sense, since when you see him, he asks you how he looks. 

Actually, there's a Kilwala piano player in Porre in 1000AD.

And one that runs from you that leaves the shelter behind.

Spek's lack of future forms is interesting to note.  He also lacks forms imitating creatures within the ocean palace, and the black omen.  Wayhaps the influence of Lavos has an effect on spekkio? 

172

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair

« on: November 08, 2008, 03:31:47 am »

The Entity might have still been responsible, but it also isn't the only (or best) explanation.

It certainly isn't the 'only' explanation, sure, but the whole scene had particulars that follow various patterns used in good story telling.  Having a discussion about the origins and nature of the portals via the 'entity' and then having a unique portal and opportunity showing itself seems more to reaffirm Robo's theory, rather than suggest any other possibility.  While it can be anything else the Chrono crew can pull out of their hat, as it is their product, but without other suitable information present, it would weaken the story telling.  There's a particular rule of theater/story telling that comes to mind in regard to conveying information to the audience, and the significance of what is reveled:  If you mention *someone* has a gun in Act 1, then that gun needs to go off before Act 3.  There is simple importance to what information an author chooses to reveal to the audience, in any medium.  If that information can't be trusted, then it either needs to be qualified, or the product is poorly made.  Given the high regard given for Chrono Trigger, I claim it is not poorly made, therefore there are patterns of quality story telling that are apart of that quality.  Therefore, I think a stable foundation can be indeed be created from the information that was chosen to not only be revealed, but also acted upon.

To note, the Entity is not time. Therefore, Crono may or may not be important to the Entity; Gaspar's statement is referring to something else

Again, from the information granted from the camp scene, which while I do admit they are simply discussing a possibility, but a possibility the has reinforcement in other elements of the game  (such as at the end when someone mentions the 'entity' being at peace)  there is a connection between the entity and time.  The entity isn't Time itself,  but it certainly seems to demonstrate a nack for temporal alterations.  Furthermore, time is relative, meaning its particular to each being.  If being alive is important to you, than wouldn't the means of keeping yourself alive also be important to your time?  Another way of phrasing that is how one chooses to spend their time.  What's important to someone, is observable by how they chose to spend their time.
  In that context, then Gaspar's statement can be included to mean "Crono is important to Time" period; as in, his significance is more than just defeating Lavos  (which I gather from how much weight that put on Crono being revived in multiple endings)  and maybe more than just to that planet alone, ie, suggesting that Crono is worthy of a sequel he exists in.   Or, the approach can be taken that Crono is important to the time of the entity, ie, the entity's survival, which certainly is threatened by Lavos.  Or both in that the 'entity' could be more than just that one planet, and thus Crono could be important to time in the battles against Lavoids, or whatever origin is given there.

Your comparison between the 'entity' and 'life' is a poor analogy.  'Life' is a condition, or quality, a distinguishing trait.  The entity is a creature, an existence, capable of actions and decisions.  One is capable of deciding for itself was is or isn't important to it, then other isn't.

As for not draining Crono's powers, it doesn't drain anyone else's powers beside Magus's, so we don't really know how that behavior works.

Because Crono intervened on everyone else's behalf.  Once you regain control of Crono during that scene, all other characters present are slowly pulled toward Lavos.  Considering his purpose in taking DNA and stealing the planet's energy, what else would he do with them by pulling them closer?  If he sought to destroy them outright, he would've continued his assault.  Either way, Crono stood up and intervened there.  If not to save the lives and energies of his teammates,(so they can continue the fight another day) then for what? 

173

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Spekkio

« on: November 08, 2008, 02:37:05 am »

It could be something as simple as just in-game mechanics.  Rather than recreate sprites and animations, its alot easier to simply recolor a set, especially if the recolor holds a similar 'value' to the player/gameplay.  Those playing Trigger for the first time facing off against Masa and Mune will fine them a challenging fight, and when it comes time to fight Spekkio in that form, its a similar challenge that's scaled up to compensate for the characters increased powers and stats. 

Spekkio does seem to be familar with the various time streams, as he's able to identify that particular element of each character, or at least identify that based on person's affinity for magic  (like ayla having none, therefore she's ancient)  That aspect might simple be part of the nature of residing in the ends of time, you simply are able to observe things. 

Now Spekkio's claim to God of War could either simply be self proclaimed, or actually gained from a lifetime.  If he is a creation of Zeal, then perhaps before the time of the Zealean royal family, there were wars waged, and with the aid of the guru's/spekkio Zeal grew to power.  Wayhaps Spekkio was the Cryrus of King Zeal?  And wayhaps he was killed in said war, as I don't think they specify how he died, they just include that he is dead.  A major distinction in class basis among a common set of people could have resulted from previous wars.  That would certainly account for the docility and poverty of the earthbound ones.  If the dreamstone incites love and hate, certainly that alone can be reason for war, and Zeal does have the dreamstone, while the earthbound ones don't.   

174

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair

« on: November 06, 2008, 03:54:06 am »

(And does anyone think that there may be more than three spacial dimensions? It is impossible to tell; squares do not even know that depth exists, yet depth exists nonetheless. Or perhaps spacial dimensions stop at 3? Hm. This is getting off-topic, though...)

try looking up a 'hyper cube'  It, and any other 'hyper' shapes are, spacial 4th dimensional objects.  Spacial dimensions are perpendicular to each other, so they created a rendering of another perpendicular axis to be viewed in our third dimension.  Anyway, there are animations and articles that describe it better than I can, especially since  you have to see it to get the picture =p.

We never see evidence in Chrono Trigger that the Entity was guiding Crono & Co.

  I'd say Lucca's personal 'red-gate' is an example of this.  The entity is reaching out to her and giving her this opportunity.  Additionally, I'd say that the Entity does play a role in guiding, or rather, choosing Crono for this.  Gasper said the Time Egg only works on those who are important to the Time line, ie, there are qualities or events that initiate this to work.  I'd think that part of that element would be the Entity, as what else would decide if something is 'important' to a timeline, especially when it comes to not only freezing time, but effectively defeated death, though temporarily?   Furthermore, I'd say this factor of 'crono's importance' and 'selection' is evident went he's killed.  If I remember right, this doesn't stand out in the newer animated sequences, but I it does stand out on the SNES version. 

When Crono confronts Lavos,  his powers aren't absorbed, or ineffective as they were with Magus.  There was a reaction, indicated by the energy bolts forming, and due to this reaction  Lavos had to adjust what he was doing, and in turn focus the energy onto Crono, thus obliterating him.  From that, I perceivedm Crono has a factor for opposing/destroying Lavos, and that's part of what made him 'important' to the timeline, thus being one of the requirements needed for the Trigger to work.  Furthermore, I'd say Crono has a another significant role to play in this as well, as various endings still involve Crono being revived with the Trigger, even if Lavos is defeated without him. 

175

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chrono's Mom

« on: November 06, 2008, 03:14:48 am »

Yeah, but there are nine gates, so they can't all be connected to one other gate..

A gate is just a passageway between two points.  Thats like saying 9 traffic intersections cant connect 9 roads, which is incorrect, you have to pass through the intersection to get from where you started, to where you are going. 9 gates * 2 passageways (start and end) = 18 endpoints, so its not a matter of odd numbers.

I speculate that the one in the proto dome would have lead to 65 million BC, which is why the crew has access to that era.  Then the other gate you take in the former Tyrano Lair goes to zeal, so each gate has a point where you enter it, and a point where you exit it.

176

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Masamune power theory

« on: November 06, 2008, 02:52:27 am »

There are two factors involved on the masamune.  The first, is its made of dreamstone, which is an effective conduit of energy, and not just Lavos' energy.  Take the Mammon Machine, when you fight it during the Zeal boss sequence, it alters and changes all forms of energy that effect it, not just Lavos'. As one example, it turns magical energy into attack power.  I think the machine was originally created to act as an amplifier based on the elemental/planetary energies that Zeal utilized prior to drawing upon Lavos' energy, and then was later discovery to be able to work on Lavos energies, which Zeal perceived to be greater, and was thus corrupted by it.

The second factor on the sword is Frog.  Between his determination and focus on defeating Magus, and also his superior swordsmanship to cyrus  (i think in reference to both physically and mentally)  he his able to draw upon the energies Magus uses as a defense. This in turn 'breaks', changes and I'd say eventually destroys the barriers Magus creates.

Another factor could be the relation between dreamstone and Lavos.  Zeal grew to draw power from and on Lavos, so I'd say much of Magus' original powers were drawn from Lavos,  which is part of why his attacks didn't have any effect.  Melchoir created the 'red dagger' to stop/counter the Mammon Machine,  so dreamstone, which I think is a manifestation or creation of the world/entity,  is created to fight against Lavos. The masamune then, cuts into the power that Magus is drawing from Lavos.

As to the corruption of the masamune, i'd say that's twofold as well.  One aspect are the deads of its users  (dark and murderous) and the whole "not cleaning' your blade corruption.  Another aspect could be from Lavos + Schala/TD.  Masa and mune are dream creatures, and could be effected by 'dream energies'.  Queen Zeal's dying words described Lavos as being in a nightmare, or in other words, a corrupted dream.  Between not having an owner to channel positive energies into the masamune, how its used, and effects from Lavos/TD in the form of nightmares could all combine into its corruption.  Again, back to the Mammon Machine.  It could be perceived as being corrupted too;  corrupted by the greed and ambitions of Queen Zeal into drawing more power, and then compounded by Lavos.


edit:  Forgot to comment on the part involving Magus using the masamune. >.>  Effectively yes, I'd say he could use the masamune, potentially even as an amplifier, or boost to his magical prowess.  Self duel tech perhaps?  However, I think there are other factors that would also reduce its effectiveness in Magus' hands.  One being that he probably hates the thing.  Its not necessarily a bane to him, especially not if he were to wield it, but as a symbol itself.  It can remind Magus of being to weak to beat Lavos himself (as its a creation of Zeal, and also a tool of Frog)  Two, in regards to defeating Lavos,  Magus probably doesn't possess the focus, training and mindset to utilize the masamune beyond what Frog can do with it.  I'd think a large part of this being that the masamune is a sword, and intentionally so.  On one hand, I think that in CC, how the mastermune is formed is pretty weak, but on the otherhand, its also possible Serge needed it, or at least the properties of dreamstone, to beat the TD. 

On the otherhand,  perhaps after CT, Magus is why the masamune is corrupted. Perhaps he tried to use it to help him rescue/find Schala, and the nature of his dark powers, (he is the demon king afterall)  corrupted it.

177

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Chrono's Mom

« on: November 06, 2008, 02:09:24 am »

There's also the fact that she would have gone through the gate with 3 or more cats, so she might end up in the End of Time and who knows what after that

That is an interesting possibility if gina and gasper hooked up.  I wouldn't necessarily say crono's father, (although anything dealing with crono's dad would probably be one of the biggest holes that could be filled in expanding the story) as that would leave to all sorts of time complications. 

Well how many cats she went through with shouldn't really matter. Weren't all the gates already connected to the End of Time? How else could Ayla, Magus, Frog, and Robo all enter the same gate and get to their home periods?

I think this is where we draw the distinctions between story mechanics, and gameplay convenience.  My understanding is that each gate leads to a specific endpoint.  You are brought to the end of time the first time because of the laws of time travel gate mechanics, blah blah.  After that, they would be traveling through specific gate points to get to specific destinations, not necessary take the EoT everytime.  I assume, then that from that vantage point, the other party members are able to glimpse part of the time streams (so they know whats going on, and not need to be updated every night by the campfire) or at least hear it from Gaspar, who does seem to see aspects of the flow of time.

what's Gaspar do at the end of the game?

He's either stuck at the EoT, or chooses to stay there.  On the stuck idea, I was reading in various articles about how the BoT and EoT take on various qualities based on each person, ie, it looks or can look different to each person.  I just finished a play through of the game, and Gaspar mentions you can only travel through gates you've been through, meaning each person.  Gasper ended up there from a time anomaly created by Lavos, so either the only gate he see's is the one to the destruction of Zeal, or there isn't a pillar for him at all since it wasn't an "entity" gate that brought him there in the first place.

So, why doesn't he then leave with crono and gang on the epoch?  That could be a possibility, or because of the changes he's undergone during his stay there (when he's confronted as being the 'guru of time' he acts like thats not him anymore)  so he stays there either as convenience, or he feels he has more to do there.

178

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Anscestors of Zeal?

« on: November 06, 2008, 01:40:54 am »

yes.  In CT's  first visit to the BC era, you can only visit the ioka because the laruban clan is hidden in the woods, and has been for some time.  On the second visit, the reptites follow ayla as she visits the hidden village and burn it since they are unable to fight back, thus the elder is angry with Ayla, but still aids her in getting a dactyl.

Ayla's responce to the laruban policy of avoid war is her line about "rule of life"  fight and live, lose and die.

179

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: The possibility of a Chrono Cross remake.

« on: November 05, 2008, 01:34:07 am »

I certainly hope not.  I think cross weakened the chrono-series and would rather see it recanon-ized (sort of like what happened to radical dreamers) or simply left to rot on the playstation as the series bastard child.

180

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: The Future of Chrono (One Possibility)

« on: November 05, 2008, 01:31:21 am »

based on the large differences in story and gameplay mechanics between trigger and cross alone, its my observation that the SE and related crew wouldn't want to produce another chrono game, let alone a series of them.  From some of the personal contribution entries i've read between this site and wikipedia, its a painstaking process to develop compelling story lines with a time theme without inconsistencies and holes. 

Now, I'm not a fan of Cross at all, and was really surprised to read about how well received it is, but I'm feeling that additional installments of chrono would succumb to the same fate of the mana-series,  simply decay with each installment and perhaps even tarnish the perceptions of the original.  From my standpoint, (again from one that didn't like cross) I feel that a sequel will either over-cannon cross, much like cross did to RD, (but on a much deeper scale) esp since I think cross pulled crap out of near nothingness for plot convenience, or they create a new setup, with a new structure on how to work in time-traveling mechanics, and potentially run risk of a direct comparison/competition with the chrono trigger set up, which it will probably lose.

Simply put, why create a complex money-cow that probably won't yield as much milk as an existing breed of money-cows that are much easier to breed?