Author Topic: Why Chrono Cross?  (Read 7110 times)

Beach Bum

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2012, 04:06:56 am »
Chrono Cross has always been intended as a sequel to Chrono Trigger.

What I wonder is, could you have done any better? What would you have done? Again Chrono & co. trying to save the world from Lavos flying around in the Epoch? So basically a copy of Chrono Trigger with some rehashed graphics and locations?

I think they went the right way about this. I didn't at all care much for Crono. Even though Crono and Serge are both silent, Serge is the more interesting one as he actually has a past and the plot actually involves him a great deal. While with Crono it could have been any other regular Joe, and it wouldn't have mattered. The other characters in Chrono Trigger were better developed then the majority in Cross though. But the battles for one I found more enjoyable in Chrono Cross. People can whine about the Elements all they want, but it did allow you to customize your characters however you wanted.

chi_z

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2012, 09:41:02 am »
there wasn't always two worlds. once the reptites were wiped out by lavos' arrival, that could be a split of dimensions where dinopolis formed instead of chronopolis. in belthesar's time experiment, dinopolis (from way back millions of years) was pulled forward to I think 1000 AD or so, perhaps 900. Chronopolis, several thousand years in the future, was pulled back to this 900-1000 ad time. of course, the two cities fought and chronopolis wins, they create fate and the el nido, some time after people up in zenan began colonizing it themselves (though fate already had people there for some time). so at this point we're back to one dimension, albeit a fugged up one where two cities got pulled toward a middle ground time zone and fought it out. some time later, serge drowns and the dimensions split. after chrono beat lavos, lavos had a back up plan he executed in the darkness beyond time, becoming the time devourer. in both dimensions, lavos is still defeated by chrono, but now it will all be for nothing, as lavos is having his way, and in fact that was just lavos' plan b all along, whether or not chrono and gang defeated lavos is irrelevant, he wins either way. that's the best I can come up with. as for the sowing back together of dimensions, if schala and kid become one person or not (I don't know personally, methinks perhaps in CC but not in RD) is probably a matter of debate as are many other things.

Lennis

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2012, 09:39:47 am »
Although it's not specified in the game, I don't believe Dinopolis was pulled from a point millions of years in the past, but rather from a point around the same time period in a different dimension - or timeline.

I'm still not really sure about the precise sequence of events in Chrono Cross, even after multiple playthroughs.  Let me list the things that I know of and try to make sense of it. (in the context of canon as much as possible)


1. In the year 65,000,000 B.C. Lavos crashes into the earth, creating an ice age that causes the extinction of the Reptites - the precursor to the Dragonian race.  Despite this event, the Dragonian/Reptite timeline continues in another dimension - one in which Lavos never crashed into the planet.  (This suggests that the Lavos event was a temporal anomaly, rather than a destined event, and that the Dragonian timeline was the original history of the world.)

2. In the Dragonian timeline, Reptite civilization evolves in a way that is highly attuned to nature.  The Dragonians create Dinopolis at some point and create an artificial plasma life-form (the Dragon God) to help govern the natural energies of the planet.

3. In the Lavos timeline, human civilization is not destroyed by the Reptites and is able to develop freely.  At some point humans learn the ways of magic, and the Kingdom of Zeal is founded.

4. Around the year 12,000 B.C., the Zealians discover the power of Lavos slumbering deep under the ocean.  An undersea palace is constructed, and Queen Zeal's mind becomes influenced by Lavos.  Hoping to harness the incredible energies of Lavos, the Mammon Machine is constructed.  Princess Schala is instrumental in the building and/or operation of the device.

5. Time-travelers (Crono and company) come to Zeal in their quest to track Lavos down in their past and destroy it.  Their first true encounter with Lavos ends in disaster when the Mammon Machine is activated by Queen Zeal.  Schala manages to save the time-travelers, but in so doing becomes a prisoner of Lavos.  Knowing that the time-travelers represent an existential threat to itself, Lavos possesses Schala and sends her to the Darkness Beyond Time as a contingency against death.  With both Queen Zeal and Schala in its thrall, Lavos then destroys Zeal.  Belthazar is sent through a temporal distortion to the year 2300 A.D.

6. Crono and his companions manage to destroy Lavos in their second encounter.  With the destruction of its body, Lavos' essence transfers fully into the mind of Schala - in a place where time-travelers cannot easily find her.  Schala is driven mad by the contact with the alien consciousness and begins to despair.  Schala's brother Janus finds her in the Darkness Beyond Time but is unable to free her.  Janus' memory is erased.

7. Instead of a ruined future, Belthazar suddenly finds himself in the highly advanced world of 2300 A.D. after Lavos' body is destroyed.  He quickly assumes a position of leadership in the scientific community.

8. Discovering unusual magnetic activity in the barren El Nido archipelago, Belthazar builds a temporal research center called Chronopolis in the Sea of Eden.  (The unusual magnetic activity is believed to be caused by the Dragon God, which is located in the same region in the Dragonian timeline.)  The facility is powered by the last surviving fragment of Lavos' physical form, the Frozen Flame, which has the power to transcend space/time.

9. Belthazar discovers Schala's fate and perceives that the combined Schala/Lavos lifeform will consume all of space-time if Schala's sanity is not restored.  He then conceives a bold and convoluted plan to rescue her: "Project Kid".  The plan finalized, Belthazar leaves instructions for the Chronopolis staff and then disappears.  (At some point, Belthazar and/or Lucca creates a failsafe to prevent the FATE supercomputer from turning against them in the form of Prometheus.  It is not at all clear how much Lucca is read into Belthazar's plan, if at all.)

10. Following the instructions left by Belthazar, temporal experiments continue in Chronopolis for the next 100 years.  In the year 2400, the culmination of Chronopolis' research is realized, and scientists attempt a "counter-time experiment".  (It is not clear what this means, but it is suggested that its success will enable Chronopolis to control time at will - perhaps indicating an ability to alter the timeline without directly affecting the reality in which Chronopolis exists, thus negating the change.)  The safety interlocks on the Frozen Flame are reduced to minimal levels and then all hell breaks loose.  The objective of the experiment is not made clear, but what is (somewhat) clear is that the Frozen Flame senses the power of Lavos destroying Zeal in the year 12,000 B.C. and attempts to join with it.  The entire Sea of Eden is then encased in a temporal bubble and sent 10,000 years back in time before the Chronopolis staff can shut the experiment down.  The sudden temporal shift of such a large area creates a huge temporal distortion that effects not only the dimension of the humans, but the dimension of the Dragonians as well - and even the Darkness Beyond Time, where Schala exists.

11. Due to the massive temporal disturbance in the Sea of Eden, several things happen at once.  The Dragonian city of Dinopolis, and the "Dragon God" controlled by it, is ripped out of its home dimension and into the dimension of the humans - and is thrown back in time to the same moment that Chronopolis emerges in.  During this transit, the Dragon God briefly crosses into the Darkness Beyond Time and makes contact with the Lavos/Schala entity.  This contact momentarily frees Schala's will from Lavos' influence and she suddenly becomes aware of the agonizing cries of a young child through the distortion.  Schala then forcibly uses Lavos' transcendent powers to attempt entry into the year 1006 A.D. to save the boy and possibly escape herself.  (This action creates a fierce storm in that time-period, which enables Serge to reach Chronopolis and be saved by the Frozen Flame.)  Although Serge is saved, Schala is unable to break free from her prison, and she, Lavos, and the Dragon God combine into one wrathful entity called the Time Devourer.

12. The humans of Chronopolis and the Dragonians of Dinopolis at first regard each other with curiosity, but relations quickly break down when the Dragonians determine that the humans originate from a "false reality" and launch an attack on Chronopolis.  Due to the power of the Frozen Flame, and in no small part to the unexpected corruption of the Dragon God by Lavos, Chronopolis prevails.  Taking the powers of the Dragon God for their own, the humans of Chronopolis conceive a plan to preserve their timeline in spite of their unexpected, and irreversible, backward jaunt through time.  The El Nido isles are created over an unknown number of years, and are then colonized by the descendents of the Chronopolis staff under the guidance of the FATE supercomputer.  (It is not clear when the colonization takes place, but the year 900 A.D. is suggested.)  Special terminals are created to interface with FATE so that the populace and any visitors can be controlled in a way that does not threaten the timeline of 2400 A.D.  The Dragon God is then split into six distinct entities and sealed away on the islands.  The resulting Dragon Gods retain the memory of their combined form, but are unable to resist the Frozen Flame's ability to confine them.  With part of its essence in effect trapped, the Lavos/Schala entity becomes dormant in the Darkness Beyond Time.

13. In the year 1006 A.D. the electromagnetic storm caused by Schala in her attempt to rescue Serge momentarily disables FATE in Chronopolis.  This allows Wazuki and Miguel to enter the facility carrying the poisoned Serge.  When power is restored to the facility, the Prometheus program, analyzing the situation, briefly assumes control of FATE and guides Wazuki to the Frozen Flame - using the young Serge's retinal scan to establish a new "arbiter" protocol.  After Serge is healed and exits the reactor chamber, FATE is effectively cut off from the Frozen Flame and can issue no new commands to it - greatly reducing its ability to respond to changing conditions in El Nido. (And thus threatening its very existence.)  Becoming aware of the sudden change, FATE overrides the Prometheus program and attempts to capture Serge with robotic sentinels, but the powerful Miguel is able to hold them back, enabling Wazuki and Serge's escape - but not before Wazuki is infected by nanomachines.

14. Taking advantage of the power loss suffered by Chronopolis, the six Dragon Gods use their combined powers to create an offspring in the form of a human girl, hoping that she can avoid FATE's notice long enough to undermine the computer's mission.  This activity by the dragons briefly wakes Schala in the Darkness Beyond Time, who, curious about Serge's fate, stretches out her senses across history.

15. Four years after his escape from Chronopolis, Wazuki is being driven mad by the nanomachines unknowingly injected into him by FATE.  His will is steadily eroded until one day FATE is able to take full control of his actions.  Angered at the chain of events that caused it to lose control of the Frozen Flame, FATE alters Wazuki's form into that of a feline demi-human; a form that would terrify the "arbiter", Serge.  Conceiving a plan to override the arbiter protocol and restore full access to the Flame, FATE decides to simply eliminate Serge.  Wazuki is thus transformed into Lynx, and the new living interface for FATE throws the seven-year-old Serge into the sea and leaves him to drown.  Seeing this event unfold from the Darkness Beyond Time, Schala uses all of her will to create an offspring of her own, but for the express purpose of preventing Serge's death.  She then sends the infant-clone to the year 1005, where it is immediately found by her old friend Lucca Ashtear.  Lucca raises the child like a baby sister, but it's not clear just how much she knows about "Kid" or her role in Belthazar's plan.

16. Bringing his override plan to fruition, Lynx tracks down Lucca with the help of his new lieutenant, Harle.  His objective is to force Lucca to use her intimate knowledge of Prometheus' core programming to override the lock on the Frozen Flame.  It is not entirely clear what happens in the tragedy that unfolds, except that Lynx fails and Lucca doesn't survive.  The ten-year-old Kid manages to escape the burning orphanage and swears revenge against Lynx.

17. In the year 1020, shortly after her arrival in El Nido, Kid is suddenly confronted by a strange portal in the water.  The portal is a time-gate created by Schala.  Compelled to jump through the gate by her genetic twin, Kid is sent ten years back in time where she rescues the seven-year-old Serge from drowning, then is compelled to jump back through the gate where her memory of the event is erased.  This action effectively changes history, but because it was initiated in a world where Serge was already dead, that world would have no choice but to continue as it was in order not to create a paradox.  A parallel reality is thus created where the rescued Serge is allowed to live and prosper, no one being aware of reality's newfound division.  No one but the original FATE.

18. At the moment of Serge's rescue in 1010, a great calamity unfolds in the Sea of Eden in the new reality.  Since the reality of Serge's survival did not exist before the year 1010, everything that happened before that time in the original world would have no bearing on the new world's future history.  Called the "Armageddon-branch theory", the heroes that saved the original world from Lavos' future destruction could not possibly do so in the new reality since that series of events originated in a year where the new reality didn't yet exist.  And since the destruction of the original world was destined without the intervention of the time-travelers who prevented it, the new reality's future was doomed to be destroyed by Lavos, even though this world existed on the same time-axis as the time-travelers who saved the original world.  The result of this paradox is a "Time Crash" centered in the Sea of Eden.  Chronopolis came from the year 2400 in the world saved from Lavos, but in the new reality the year 2400 was from a world destroyed by Lavos in 1999, so Chronopolis could not possibly exist.  This paradox, combined with the giant temporal shift caused by the original world's Chronopolis, causes the space-time continuum to shatter around the Sea of Eden - freezing time in an unrecognizable moment combining aspects of 400 years of history between Lavos' destined day of destruction and the day of Chronopolis' "counter-time experiment".  This area is thereafter called "The Dead Sea".

19. Unaware of the Time Crash in his world, Serge lives a remarkably ordinary life up until the day when Kid (in the original world) travels 10 years back in time to save his life.  When this moment comes, Serge immediately falls through the dimensional divide while he is at Opassa Beach with Leena.  He meets up with Kid later that day.  (And from her point of view, she rescued Serge only hours earlier.)


Well, that's how I interpret canon at the beginning of Chrono Cross, with a little supposition.






Kodokami

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2012, 12:53:14 pm »
That's a pretty neat plot summary, Lennis. Even if you interpreted certain events in your own way, it made me realize there were some possibilities I never considered.

chi_z

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2012, 06:25:57 pm »
holy fuck  :picardno  I never realized it, but you're spot on as to why chronopolis does and does not exist, chrono and gang killed off lavos in 1999 which has yet to happen during the drowning incident, so in at least one dimension lavos still is alive and well. wow that really does suck. Hope schala really really got what she was looking for with serge, can't say I'd be arsed to save a random stranger drowning 13,000 years from my home time, but maybe she didn't realize lavos would still be alive either or at least thought he could be defeated. that's actually a very cool mending of story aspects on kato's part then imo, though a bit of a 'cop out' method to allow him to do pretty damn well anything he wanted to with cross. symbolic of the triviality of life, existentialism, zorastrianism that pops up in the series, especially kato's parts (such as the poyozo in zeal asking about fate). not bad at all

MaLiang91321

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2012, 07:32:20 pm »
Lennis, excellent summary!  I hadn't even thought of how the Day of Lavos would interact with the Chrono Cross world.

But, for the sake of argument, why Lavos and Schala?  Sure, Schala was one of my favorite characters from CT and I was delighted to see her have a major role in this game, but could it be possible for Kid to just be Kid, even without Schala being in the game?  I mean, you don't even hear about the time devourer, or Schala, until the end of the game (if my memory serves me correctly).  Couldn't that have just been tacked on to tie the game to Chrono Trigger?  What if the final boss was the Dragon God?  It feels like a disservice to Harle, where throughout the story, she's portrayed as a tragic character, worlds apart from everyone else, when suddenly, there's a new final boss in town.  What was the point of having her become such a major part of the story when they were just going to push her out of the way for Lavos?

On the flip side, it really ties Chrono Trigger, Radical Dreamers, and Chrono Cross together to have a game about severing the humans' final tie to Lavos:  Schala.  It was something Chrono Trigger was missing, and was a critical part of the story (especially after the DS re-release event with the Dream Devourer!).  In fact, I'm glad that was retconned (in a sense) in the DS release; I think it completes Chrono Cross and gives it much more meaning to have Schala there.  I think that may have been done to have Chrono Cross make more sense.

I guess you can say that the Chrono Trigger team took a flight through time on the Epoch to correct the inconsistencies of the series!

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2012, 07:38:30 pm »
I'm under the impression that Schala intentionally caused the storm to allow Serge access to Chronopolis and the Frozen Flame. Serge became the 'Arbiter' to the flame, and I think that his real role in history - as an agent of the Frozen Flame - is more sinister than we ever actually see. At one point Lynx knowingly refers to him as the "Assassin of Time" - I think the two events are someone inter-related.

Of course, it's theory, but... I believe that had the Chrono Cross not been used to reunify the timelines, then Serge would have played some role in destroying space-time. Only by freeing Schala and allowing her to create a third, "ideal" timeline (in which the events of Chrono Cross never occur) does she prevent this from happening.

Lennis

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2012, 05:12:35 am »
A much more detailed analysis of the Dead Sea, the Time Crash, and Serge's relation to them can be found here.  It's where I got the "Armageddon-branch theory" from.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Salt_for_the_Dead_Sea.html


I'm under the impression that Schala intentionally caused the storm to allow Serge access to Chronopolis and the Frozen Flame. Serge became the 'Arbiter' to the flame, and I think that his real role in history - as an agent of the Frozen Flame - is more sinister than we ever actually see. At one point Lynx knowingly refers to him as the "Assassin of Time" - I think the two events are someone inter-related.

Of course, it's theory, but... I believe that had the Chrono Cross not been used to reunify the timelines, then Serge would have played some role in destroying space-time. Only by freeing Schala and allowing her to create a third, "ideal" timeline (in which the events of Chrono Cross never occur) does she prevent this from happening.

I am also of this opinion, but I think Lynx refers to Serge as the "assassin of time" not because of what he is going to do, but because of what he has already done by just being alive.  Indeed, I believe the world of the two dimensions may be doomed even without the presence of the Time Devourer.  The fabric of reality was greatly strained when Chronopolis executed their "counter-time experiment", and it may have been permanently damaged when the Time Crash occurred 10,000 years later.  I would theorize that this divided reality could continue to exist up until the year 1999, when Lavos is destined to destroy Home World.  The dimensions would then become so radically different that reality would completely break down and essentially trigger a Time Crash everywhere.  It seems likely that the only way to salvage things is for Schala to remake the world.

X4220

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2012, 06:42:47 pm »
Until Kato states otherwise, I refuse to believe that helping Serge was Schala's motive when she created Kid.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2012, 10:14:32 pm »
I always thought that it was stated in-game that that was the case... Then again, that may just be popular opinion. I haven't played Chrono Cross since, what, 2002? 2003? I played it again in 2007 but stopped playing when I moved (I was at Chronopolis when I stopped playing).

Lennis

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2012, 02:10:21 am »
Here is part of the actual quote from Ghost Lucca explaining Schala's actions:

"Led by the pitiful crying the young Serge made as the panther demon's poison took hold of him...  Princess Schala traveled 10,000 years in time to try and make contact with this dimension!  This caused a raging magnetic storm that resulted in FATE's system malfunction,   which led Serge to the Frozen Flame.  Yes, Serge...  The sound of your crying touched the heart of Princess Schala...  Before the destructive mind-set could become dominant, she cloned herself and sent her copy into this dimension."

While it doesn't definitively say that Serge was the reason for Kid's creation, the way this quote is structured makes it far more likely than not.  And no other explanation is given, so...

utunnels

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2012, 03:24:39 am »
The weird thing is, Schala cloned herself, which sounds ultimately complicated. The clone's materiality is undoubtable, if someone who is slipping into DBT can make materially contact with the outerworld, it must be blasphemously powerful, making me wonder what else it can't do.

Despite that, it sounds like Schala's another half of mind decided to make a backup.

BTW, I'm feeling the topic has been led away again, hehe.

IshitoxRuchianna

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2012, 11:08:26 pm »
I hated the story line of CC. I wish they had explored more character backstories. But that's what fanfiction is for, right?

FrogsHonor

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2012, 08:53:53 pm »
Crono was a weakass...just sayin'...fucking ass hole...

vivify93

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Re: Why Chrono Cross?
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2012, 02:22:31 am »
Although it's not specified in the game, I don't believe Dinopolis was pulled from a point millions of years in the past, but rather from a point around the same time period in a different dimension - or timeline.

I'm still not really sure about the precise sequence of events in Chrono Cross, even after multiple playthroughs.  Let me list the things that I know of and try to make sense of it. (in the context of canon as much as possible)

[snip]

Well, that's how I interpret canon at the beginning of Chrono Cross, with a little supposition.

But wait. I'm confused on something... every time I feel like I grasp it, it leaves my reach again.

So basically, after all that, the reason the world split in twain is because Serge was saved by Kid, yes? It's because she time traveled to save him. If the reason why Crono and crew's actions were undone in Home World because the world had to go perfectly, down to the T, then this means Serge's becoming the arbiter was always meant to happen.

But Wazuki and Miguel wouldn't have ended up at Chronopolis without Schala's intervention, right? That was always meant to be too then. But if that part of Schala's intervention was always meant to be, what about Kid's existence and her saving Serge? Was the entirety of Chrono Cross meant to be, then? Is 2400 A.D. in a recursive loop of screwing up the dimensions? How does the true ending work, then? Schala is freed and Serge is sent back to Leena on Opassa Beach in the combined, ideal world. Serge couldn't have been saved by Kid, Lynx is still alive, Chronopolis is still in the Sea of Eden, and Porre may still attempt to invade Termina.

And if altering Serge's fate via time travel is what started this mess to begin with, then what about when Serge time travels and saves the kids in the burning orphanage? Wouldn't that create a third dimension? Or is that all in Kid's mind? Since playing Chrono Trigger, I've been under the impression that he actually went back to the point of Lynx and Harle's assault for a short while.

I have a feeling that my main points, Wazuki and Miguel in Chronopolis not affecting anything, but later Serge being saved by Kid does, is because of FATE being down during the electromagnetic storm during the first event, but being perfectly online during the second. Or am I wrong? I think about that, and then I think "Well that's obvious," but then my brain tells me, "Well then if Wazuki and Miguel weren't meant to be at Chronopolis but FATE worked with what it had, wouldn't the storm have screwed with the timeline?" And now I'm thinking, "No, of course not, because FATE was offline."

Oh, wait! That's right, Schala wasn't time traveling during the storm! For some reason I always forget and my mind tells me Time's Eclipse is at the end of time instead of existing at all points of it. She was just trying to enter one of the many points of time she and Lavos had access to. Kid's time traveling actually messed with the timeline. But this implies that Serge didn't actually do anything when he saved Kid... But then why the heck did he (Or Masa, Mune, and Doreen) need the Time Egg to do it? Hmm. Maybe the Planet was just like, "*sigh* Okay, **** it. You already messed with it once and she is kind of instrumental to this whole thing, so why the hell not. Go for it, kiddo."

I never thought I'd have this many questions about Chrono Cross... or that I'd answer them myself. :lol: Even though this post is kind of useless now, somehow I think actually hitting the "post" button will make me remember the answer I reached.