Author Topic: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)  (Read 14897 times)

CelestialPhantasm

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5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« on: January 17, 2012, 08:24:26 am »
As stated in another thread, I have only recently discovered Crimson Echoes. I am just at the point in the story where King Guardia has been seemingly sent to the Darkness Beyond Time by King Zeal, yet there is an earlier plot point that is still bothering me.

It is explained by Belthasar that the eras visited through the gates (in CT) are linked in their advancement; i.d. The same gate from 1000 that took you to 600 will take you to 605 if you use it in 1005. This inherent link would lead me to believe that Glenn would not have noticed a change in the timeline (caused by King Zeal's meddling) until 605, since this change was produced in -11995 and not in -12000. He would have returned to Guardia, everything would have been as he had left it (as seen in the endings of Chrono Trigger, where he is accompanying the King and Queen), and after 5 years he would suddenly awake to find a changed world- a change of which only he would be aware, due to his Time Traveler's Immunity.

However, in the game itself, he says that he found this world changed already when he returned to 600. It is obviously difficult to be logical about these things since we are dealing with a sort of 5-dimensional causality (time being the 4th and manipulation of events outside the normal stream of time being the fifth), but something seems foul with this plot element. If Glenn discovered the consequences of Zeal's actions in 600, Chrono, Marle and Lucca should also have seen the Vanguard and the absence of Cyrus' grave in Choras in 1000.

The only explanation I can think of, is that one loses Time Traveler's Immunity if one does not continue to actively participate in the events of the 5th dimension. Therefore, since Glenn was not present for the disappearance of the Masamune, he became, after his return to 600, a part of the timeline that was changed, and was changed with it. Therefore, he remembers there having always been a Kasmir since his return to 600, although this was not originally the case. He still has his Masamune and his memories of the way things were before 600, because these were relevant to his time-travels.

This would also explain why Belthasar in 2300 has no Time Traveler's immunity to the events experienced in CE, although he is in fact a Time Traveler from -12000.

The problem posed by this idea is that not all party members were present at King Zeal's removal of the Masamune in -11995. Should these therefore not be personally unaware of the change, just as was the case for Belthasar?

Thoughts? Explanations?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 01:30:26 pm »
The link between the gates is only just that, it has nothing to do with how the time line gets changed. That's because affecting one point in the time line affects any point beyond, not just certain points. A change in 11995 BC would no doubt affect every single year after, including 600 AD.

King Zeal had to time travel from 2300 AD to 11995 BC, therefore, Glenn was able to experience the unaltered time line first as time went forward as usual. Then King Zeal went to Antiquity and removed the Masamune. Time moves forward once more in this new time line, and in the new 600 AD Glenn arrives as usual thanks to TTI and notice the changes. And, due to the way these thing works and how the game was structured, we meet this version of Glenn instead of the one who got to witness the unaltered 600 AD.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 01:33:57 pm by Acacia Sgt »

CelestialPhantasm

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2012, 06:24:39 am »
And, due to the way these thing works and how the game was structured, we meet this version of Glenn instead of the one who got to witness the unaltered 600 AD.

This is the fishy part. What happened to the Glenn who witnessed the unaltered 600 A.D.? Was he sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Does this mean, as already postulated, that he lost his TTI after the fight against Lavos?

Obviously it was structured in this way so that, as soon as King Zeal changes history, Glenn would have immediately already established the Vanguard; which is a nice, important plot point. There is just something about it that seems forced.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 02:13:15 pm »
This is the fishy part. What happened to the Glenn who witnessed the unaltered 600 A.D.? Was he sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Does this mean, as already postulated, that he lost his TTI after the fight against Lavos?

Obviously it was structured in this way so that, as soon as King Zeal changes history, Glenn would have immediately already established the Vanguard; which is a nice, important plot point. There is just something about it that seems forced.

Yes, the time line he was in got sent to the DBT since a new one came to be when King Zeal removed the Masamune. But no, he didn't loose his TTI, otherwise he wouldn't have appeared in the new 600 AD in that case. Remember that both Glenns (the one who witnessed the unaltered events and the one that did) are the same individual, the only difference is to what time line he is entering. Likewise once the Masamune is restored to it's proper place that very same Glenn will witness the restored 600 AD due to TTI, but of course, by this point it is also a Time Bastard since the Glenn that saw the Vanguard Time Line, at the time the 'current' version of him, made further time travels.

It may look forced, but sometimes that's the only thing to do. When the 1000 AD trio traveled to 600 AD for the first time in the game, they first entered the unaltered 600 AD. But of course, it is most likely that those version of the events weren't relevant for the overall plot, so the whole thing essentially 'skips' until the point the time line gets altered and now the game resumes to the trio entering the altered one.

For example, during the Reptite Time Line arc, imagine that you only get to play and witness Crono, Glenn, and Magus's section. And the game continues as usual with Marle in the restored 1 AD. Due to what you witness with CFM, you know something happened to Marle in the Reptite Time Line, but you just don't get shown that because the game just sends you to witness the restored events. Well, it's essentially the same thing. Whatever they did in those now-discarded time lines, it gets 'skipped' from the witnessing perspective for whatever reason it may be.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2012, 05:53:07 pm »
Nothing like that ever happens in CT. That's my problem with TB and TTI.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 07:29:50 pm »
Nothing like that ever happens in CT. That's my problem with TB and TTI.

What do you mean? What does nothing happen?

Mr Bekkler

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 08:51:12 pm »
In the original CT, there aren't any big changes like Frog being stranded in the alternate Middle Ages. That's more like Back to the Future 2 than Chrono Trigger.It's because the theory is wrong. It's the very reason taking ruined-future Doan to the present after saving the future makes no sense. It's why the team shoving the red knife into the Mammon Machine to create the Masamune makes absolutely no difference in the timeline than when Melchior finished it himself. It's why Ayla leaving her home time doesn't immediately destroy the other eras. The way I see it, TB and TTI are not real, but merely theories. They are introduced in-game in Crimson Echoes by Belthasar. It's Belthasar's theory about how they interact with time, but it's incomplete, and sometimes just wrong.

The closest thing I can think is giving the family in Porre jerky in 600 makes the family in Porre less jerk-y in 1000. But then the Porre family in 1000 should have always been like that with this logic. My SmartTime theory allows this all to happen without TB or TTI, the timeline just learns from its mistakes and eventually knows what it's doing to prevent big catastrophic changes.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 08:54:03 pm by Mr Bekkler »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 12:29:59 am »
The closest thing I can think is giving the family in Porre jerky in 600 makes the family in Porre less jerk-y in 1000. But then the Porre family in 1000 should have always been like that with this logic. My SmartTime theory allows this all to happen without TB or TTI, the timeline just learns from its mistakes and eventually knows what it's doing to prevent big catastrophic changes.

Wait, why would the Porre family in 1000 AD be already changed? By that logic, 2300 AD should already be in fine condition even before Lavos's defeat.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 02:34:30 am »
Exactly.

utunnels

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 02:45:00 am »
Quote
It's the very reason taking ruined-future Doan to the present after saving the future makes no sense.
I was always wondering, why Lucca didn't notice that when she met Doan in the ruined future after they already defeated Lavos? Unless there's a game that always connected to that timeline.

Manly Man

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 04:18:44 am »
A practical and, actually, quite humorous possibility is that Doan simply liked to be a dirty old man. Either way the future goes, there's more than enough dust and filth for him to wallow in, whether the world's been reduced to nothing or not.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2012, 02:02:39 pm »
Exactly.

But you're stating it to be under the theories of TTI and TB that the changes should already apply. Or did I just misunderstood?

Mr Bekkler

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 10:05:30 pm »
I'm saying because of the way TB and TTI were presented in CE, the actual meaning of the theories gets slightly skewed and stretched, and it doesn't hold much water as an end-all, be-all explanation.

And I'm saying that these ridiculous scenarios that I came up with where things "should have" already been changed are in fact examples of how TB and TTI would have been used in CT if they were in fact following the same logic as CE. I don't think this makes CE any less of a game, in fact I think it adds a layer of depth, considering Belthasar is (in my mind) wrong about the theory, but almost right, it makes him even more megalomaniacal and driven.

If you like the theory, that's fine by me, but just like any theory it has its holes. My SmartTime idea is vague by necessity, as such it can never specifically, concretely say what happened. This allows it to stretch without breaking the theory itself. Unfortunately in the case of TB and TTI, even if you disregard CT completely and just look at CE, it's still not consistent. The Atash Kedah and Magus, Frog, and Crono appearing (2nd time around) before everyone else disappeared (from the 1st time around) but not replacing their former selves, for example. Having 2 versions of the Masamune just because (how many can have TTI before the one Frog uses just disappears according to the theory?)

So after a ton of thought and a lot of math and intense plot-checking, we're left with two theories that do an equally good and equally bad job of telling us how time travel worked: TB/TTI and SmartTime. SmartTime's just easier to grasp with a concise explanation, hence my attraction toward it (KISS method FTW).

Acacia Sgt

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2012, 02:06:16 am »
If you like the theory, that's fine by me, but just like any theory it has its holes. My SmartTime idea is vague by necessity, as such it can never specifically, concretely say what happened. This allows it to stretch without breaking the theory itself. Unfortunately in the case of TB and TTI, even if you disregard CT completely and just look at CE, it's still not consistent. The Atash Kedah and Magus, Frog, and Crono appearing (2nd time around) before everyone else disappeared (from the 1st time around) but not replacing their former selves, for example. Having 2 versions of the Masamune just because (how many can have TTI before the one Frog uses just disappears according to the theory?)

Why would they replace their former selves? They're them sure, but also, it's them but with +X time spent in the Reptite 1005 AD, and as stated in the TTI and TB theories, they're not really the same individual anymore, just like how you can have Robo and still see his past-self helping making the forest, or the 'power them up in the past, pick them in the present, then come back for them in the past as well' items. They can coexist until the one subjected to TB according to the theory do.

Also, regarding the Masamune, the one Frog wields is it's current version, so it won't disappear either. And regarding how many, well, by the theory as long as their time left before TB is up, they can all be sent through time as many times as it could be possible, with those entrances having their own TTI, but not saving them from the TB.

CelestialPhantasm

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Re: 5 years later (CE: SPOILERS)
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2012, 08:36:47 am »
Is there a Chrono Compendium article on this "Smart Time" theory?


The big problem, is this 5-dimensional construct. Why has the Masamune already disappeared for Glenn in 600 in Crimson Echoes but not in Chrono Trigger? If King Zeal took the Masamune in -11995, it should have been impossible to retrieve it and use it to defeat Magus in Chrono Trigger, which led to the defeat of Lavos and set the stage for CE. (If, as is the case with the gates, these eras were proportionately "linked", this might make at least a little more sense.)

The only idea I have is that time functions as a loop and repeats itself indefinitely and every cycle permits a new version of events, evidently through the meddling of time-travelers. This fits in nicely with the scientific indications that the universe is curved and that time and space are parts of one and the same (therefore, time should also be curved). However, this only adds further complications to the idea of Time Traveler's Immunity and does not explain why the Glenn of CE is the one who returned to a Masamune-less world and not the one from the end of CT. Unfortunately, it seems more like a clumsy plot-device than anything else.

Quote
Yes, the time line he was in got sent to the DBT since a new one came to be when King Zeal removed the Masamune. But no, he didn't loose his TTI, otherwise he wouldn't have appeared in the new 600 AD in that case. Remember that both Glenns (the one who witnessed the unaltered events and the one that did) are the same individual, the only difference is to what time line he is entering. Likewise once the Masamune is restored to it's proper place that very same Glenn will witness the restored 600 AD due to TTI, but of course, by this point it is also a Time Bastard since the Glenn that saw the Vanguard Time Line, at the time the 'current' version of him, made further time travels.

Fair enough. Yet this Glenn who had already seen a 600 A.D. with the Masamune has already vanished once, thereby becoming a Bastard of Time. This confirms that Glenn did indeed lose his Time Traveler's Immunity starting from the point of his return to 600 after the defeat of Lavos.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 08:41:52 am by CelestialPhantasm »