Chrono Compendium
Bend of Time - Inactive Projects => Darkness Beyond Time - Dead Project Discussion => Topic started by: CelestialPhantasm on January 17, 2012, 08:24:26 am
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As stated in another thread, I have only recently discovered Crimson Echoes. I am just at the point in the story where King Guardia has been seemingly sent to the Darkness Beyond Time by King Zeal, yet there is an earlier plot point that is still bothering me.
It is explained by Belthasar that the eras visited through the gates (in CT) are linked in their advancement; i.d. The same gate from 1000 that took you to 600 will take you to 605 if you use it in 1005. This inherent link would lead me to believe that Glenn would not have noticed a change in the timeline (caused by King Zeal's meddling) until 605, since this change was produced in -11995 and not in -12000. He would have returned to Guardia, everything would have been as he had left it (as seen in the endings of Chrono Trigger, where he is accompanying the King and Queen), and after 5 years he would suddenly awake to find a changed world- a change of which only he would be aware, due to his Time Traveler's Immunity.
However, in the game itself, he says that he found this world changed already when he returned to 600. It is obviously difficult to be logical about these things since we are dealing with a sort of 5-dimensional causality (time being the 4th and manipulation of events outside the normal stream of time being the fifth), but something seems foul with this plot element. If Glenn discovered the consequences of Zeal's actions in 600, Chrono, Marle and Lucca should also have seen the Vanguard and the absence of Cyrus' grave in Choras in 1000.
The only explanation I can think of, is that one loses Time Traveler's Immunity if one does not continue to actively participate in the events of the 5th dimension. Therefore, since Glenn was not present for the disappearance of the Masamune, he became, after his return to 600, a part of the timeline that was changed, and was changed with it. Therefore, he remembers there having always been a Kasmir since his return to 600, although this was not originally the case. He still has his Masamune and his memories of the way things were before 600, because these were relevant to his time-travels.
This would also explain why Belthasar in 2300 has no Time Traveler's immunity to the events experienced in CE, although he is in fact a Time Traveler from -12000.
The problem posed by this idea is that not all party members were present at King Zeal's removal of the Masamune in -11995. Should these therefore not be personally unaware of the change, just as was the case for Belthasar?
Thoughts? Explanations?
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The link between the gates is only just that, it has nothing to do with how the time line gets changed. That's because affecting one point in the time line affects any point beyond, not just certain points. A change in 11995 BC would no doubt affect every single year after, including 600 AD.
King Zeal had to time travel from 2300 AD to 11995 BC, therefore, Glenn was able to experience the unaltered time line first as time went forward as usual. Then King Zeal went to Antiquity and removed the Masamune. Time moves forward once more in this new time line, and in the new 600 AD Glenn arrives as usual thanks to TTI and notice the changes. And, due to the way these thing works and how the game was structured, we meet this version of Glenn instead of the one who got to witness the unaltered 600 AD.
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And, due to the way these thing works and how the game was structured, we meet this version of Glenn instead of the one who got to witness the unaltered 600 AD.
This is the fishy part. What happened to the Glenn who witnessed the unaltered 600 A.D.? Was he sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Does this mean, as already postulated, that he lost his TTI after the fight against Lavos?
Obviously it was structured in this way so that, as soon as King Zeal changes history, Glenn would have immediately already established the Vanguard; which is a nice, important plot point. There is just something about it that seems forced.
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This is the fishy part. What happened to the Glenn who witnessed the unaltered 600 A.D.? Was he sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Does this mean, as already postulated, that he lost his TTI after the fight against Lavos?
Obviously it was structured in this way so that, as soon as King Zeal changes history, Glenn would have immediately already established the Vanguard; which is a nice, important plot point. There is just something about it that seems forced.
Yes, the time line he was in got sent to the DBT since a new one came to be when King Zeal removed the Masamune. But no, he didn't loose his TTI, otherwise he wouldn't have appeared in the new 600 AD in that case. Remember that both Glenns (the one who witnessed the unaltered events and the one that did) are the same individual, the only difference is to what time line he is entering. Likewise once the Masamune is restored to it's proper place that very same Glenn will witness the restored 600 AD due to TTI, but of course, by this point it is also a Time Bastard since the Glenn that saw the Vanguard Time Line, at the time the 'current' version of him, made further time travels.
It may look forced, but sometimes that's the only thing to do. When the 1000 AD trio traveled to 600 AD for the first time in the game, they first entered the unaltered 600 AD. But of course, it is most likely that those version of the events weren't relevant for the overall plot, so the whole thing essentially 'skips' until the point the time line gets altered and now the game resumes to the trio entering the altered one.
For example, during the Reptite Time Line arc, imagine that you only get to play and witness Crono, Glenn, and Magus's section. And the game continues as usual with Marle in the restored 1 AD. Due to what you witness with CFM, you know something happened to Marle in the Reptite Time Line, but you just don't get shown that because the game just sends you to witness the restored events. Well, it's essentially the same thing. Whatever they did in those now-discarded time lines, it gets 'skipped' from the witnessing perspective for whatever reason it may be.
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Nothing like that ever happens in CT. That's my problem with TB and TTI.
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Nothing like that ever happens in CT. That's my problem with TB and TTI.
What do you mean? What does nothing happen?
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In the original CT, there aren't any big changes like Frog being stranded in the alternate Middle Ages. That's more like Back to the Future 2 than Chrono Trigger.It's because the theory is wrong. It's the very reason taking ruined-future Doan to the present after saving the future makes no sense. It's why the team shoving the red knife into the Mammon Machine to create the Masamune makes absolutely no difference in the timeline than when Melchior finished it himself. It's why Ayla leaving her home time doesn't immediately destroy the other eras. The way I see it, TB and TTI are not real, but merely theories. They are introduced in-game in Crimson Echoes by Belthasar. It's Belthasar's theory about how they interact with time, but it's incomplete, and sometimes just wrong.
The closest thing I can think is giving the family in Porre jerky in 600 makes the family in Porre less jerk-y in 1000. But then the Porre family in 1000 should have always been like that with this logic. My SmartTime theory allows this all to happen without TB or TTI, the timeline just learns from its mistakes and eventually knows what it's doing to prevent big catastrophic changes.
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The closest thing I can think is giving the family in Porre jerky in 600 makes the family in Porre less jerk-y in 1000. But then the Porre family in 1000 should have always been like that with this logic. My SmartTime theory allows this all to happen without TB or TTI, the timeline just learns from its mistakes and eventually knows what it's doing to prevent big catastrophic changes.
Wait, why would the Porre family in 1000 AD be already changed? By that logic, 2300 AD should already be in fine condition even before Lavos's defeat.
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Exactly.
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It's the very reason taking ruined-future Doan to the present after saving the future makes no sense.
I was always wondering, why Lucca didn't notice that when she met Doan in the ruined future after they already defeated Lavos? Unless there's a game that always connected to that timeline.
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A practical and, actually, quite humorous possibility is that Doan simply liked to be a dirty old man. Either way the future goes, there's more than enough dust and filth for him to wallow in, whether the world's been reduced to nothing or not.
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Exactly.
But you're stating it to be under the theories of TTI and TB that the changes should already apply. Or did I just misunderstood?
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I'm saying because of the way TB and TTI were presented in CE, the actual meaning of the theories gets slightly skewed and stretched, and it doesn't hold much water as an end-all, be-all explanation.
And I'm saying that these ridiculous scenarios that I came up with where things "should have" already been changed are in fact examples of how TB and TTI would have been used in CT if they were in fact following the same logic as CE. I don't think this makes CE any less of a game, in fact I think it adds a layer of depth, considering Belthasar is (in my mind) wrong about the theory, but almost right, it makes him even more megalomaniacal and driven.
If you like the theory, that's fine by me, but just like any theory it has its holes. My SmartTime idea is vague by necessity, as such it can never specifically, concretely say what happened. This allows it to stretch without breaking the theory itself. Unfortunately in the case of TB and TTI, even if you disregard CT completely and just look at CE, it's still not consistent. The Atash Kedah and Magus, Frog, and Crono appearing (2nd time around) before everyone else disappeared (from the 1st time around) but not replacing their former selves, for example. Having 2 versions of the Masamune just because (how many can have TTI before the one Frog uses just disappears according to the theory?)
So after a ton of thought and a lot of math and intense plot-checking, we're left with two theories that do an equally good and equally bad job of telling us how time travel worked: TB/TTI and SmartTime. SmartTime's just easier to grasp with a concise explanation, hence my attraction toward it (KISS method FTW).
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If you like the theory, that's fine by me, but just like any theory it has its holes. My SmartTime idea is vague by necessity, as such it can never specifically, concretely say what happened. This allows it to stretch without breaking the theory itself. Unfortunately in the case of TB and TTI, even if you disregard CT completely and just look at CE, it's still not consistent. The Atash Kedah and Magus, Frog, and Crono appearing (2nd time around) before everyone else disappeared (from the 1st time around) but not replacing their former selves, for example. Having 2 versions of the Masamune just because (how many can have TTI before the one Frog uses just disappears according to the theory?)
Why would they replace their former selves? They're them sure, but also, it's them but with +X time spent in the Reptite 1005 AD, and as stated in the TTI and TB theories, they're not really the same individual anymore, just like how you can have Robo and still see his past-self helping making the forest, or the 'power them up in the past, pick them in the present, then come back for them in the past as well' items. They can coexist until the one subjected to TB according to the theory do.
Also, regarding the Masamune, the one Frog wields is it's current version, so it won't disappear either. And regarding how many, well, by the theory as long as their time left before TB is up, they can all be sent through time as many times as it could be possible, with those entrances having their own TTI, but not saving them from the TB.
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Is there a Chrono Compendium article on this "Smart Time" theory?
The big problem, is this 5-dimensional construct. Why has the Masamune already disappeared for Glenn in 600 in Crimson Echoes but not in Chrono Trigger? If King Zeal took the Masamune in -11995, it should have been impossible to retrieve it and use it to defeat Magus in Chrono Trigger, which led to the defeat of Lavos and set the stage for CE. (If, as is the case with the gates, these eras were proportionately "linked", this might make at least a little more sense.)
The only idea I have is that time functions as a loop and repeats itself indefinitely and every cycle permits a new version of events, evidently through the meddling of time-travelers. This fits in nicely with the scientific indications that the universe is curved and that time and space are parts of one and the same (therefore, time should also be curved). However, this only adds further complications to the idea of Time Traveler's Immunity and does not explain why the Glenn of CE is the one who returned to a Masamune-less world and not the one from the end of CT. Unfortunately, it seems more like a clumsy plot-device than anything else.
Yes, the time line he was in got sent to the DBT since a new one came to be when King Zeal removed the Masamune. But no, he didn't loose his TTI, otherwise he wouldn't have appeared in the new 600 AD in that case. Remember that both Glenns (the one who witnessed the unaltered events and the one that did) are the same individual, the only difference is to what time line he is entering. Likewise once the Masamune is restored to it's proper place that very same Glenn will witness the restored 600 AD due to TTI, but of course, by this point it is also a Time Bastard since the Glenn that saw the Vanguard Time Line, at the time the 'current' version of him, made further time travels.
Fair enough. Yet this Glenn who had already seen a 600 A.D. with the Masamune has already vanished once, thereby becoming a Bastard of Time. This confirms that Glenn did indeed lose his Time Traveler's Immunity starting from the point of his return to 600 after the defeat of Lavos.
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No Compendium article, it's got a thread in the Time/Space Analysis section. http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7666.0.html
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The big problem, is this 5-dimensional construct. Why has the Masamune already disappeared for Glenn in 600 in Crimson Echoes but not in Chrono Trigger? If King Zeal took the Masamune in -11995, it should have been impossible to retrieve it and use it to defeat Magus in Chrono Trigger, which led to the defeat of Lavos and set the stage for CE. (If, as is the case with the gates, these eras were proportionately "linked", this might make at least a little more sense.)
That's due to the nature of time. Just like how 2300 AD is still a wasteland even though by the end of the game you would have defeated Lavos, so do things don't happen until they actually happen. For King Zeal to steal the Masamune, he needs first to time travel there from the future, which in turns he needs to be revived by Belthasar, which in turns needs Chronopolis to do it, which in turns can only do it in the saved future which is only after Lavos has been defeated. So when Crono and co. fought Magus, it was in a time line where the above couldn't happen, so they were free to do it.
Now, another issue that can rise following this is how the events could happen AFTER the Masamune was removed, but that's a separate issue for now.
The only idea I have is that time functions as a loop and repeats itself indefinitely and every cycle permits a new version of events, evidently through the meddling of time-travelers. This fits in nicely with the scientific indications that the universe is curved and that time and space are parts of one and the same (therefore, time should also be curved). However, this only adds further complications to the idea of Time Traveler's Immunity and does not explain why the Glenn of CE is the one who returned to a Masamune-less world and not the one from the end of CT. Unfortunately, it seems more like a clumsy plot-device than anything else.
Regarding Glenn, I bring up again the Reptite arc example. The events Marle, Lucca, and Robo witnessed got erased when the Human time line got restored. The situation with Glenn above would be the same if you could never play the Reptite 1 AD and 2305 AG scenarios. Whatever they would do you don't get to see it because due to the structure of the game and/or plot, even though you know they did entered the Reptite time line but the game picks up again with the them who entered the restored time line.
Not to mention, you can't visit 605 AD until after King Zeal removes the Masamune, so that's another reason why it is the one who entered the Vanguard time line.
Fair enough. Yet this Glenn who had already seen a 600 A.D. with the Masamune has already vanished once, thereby becoming a Bastard of Time. This confirms that Glenn did indeed lose his Time Traveler's Immunity starting from the point of his return to 600 after the defeat of Lavos.
Not really, if he had lost it, we wouldn't have seen him in the Vanguard Time Line then. The TTI is only the entrance to the time line. Whatever happens to the individual in whatever time line it is entering is fair game, as it is only it's being entering the time line that is secured, whatever happens after is not.
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Regarding Glenn, I bring up again the Reptite arc example. The events Marle, Lucca, and Robo witnessed got erased when the Human time line got restored. The situation with Glenn above would be the same if you could never play the Reptite 1 AD and 2305 AG scenarios. Whatever they would do you don't get to see it because due to the structure of the game and/or plot, even though you know they did entered the Reptite time line but the game picks up again with the them who entered the restored time line.
Not to mention, you can't visit 605 AD until after King Zeal removes the Masamune, so that's another reason why it is the one who entered the Vanguard time line.
The Marle, Lucca and Robo who experienced the Reptite-timeline were, after the intervention of Glenn, Crono and Magus, eliminated from existence. They were banished to the Darkness Beyond Time and replaced by a Marle, a Lucca and a Robo who were sent by King Zeal into an unaltered time-line. The former ceases to exist and is replaced by the latter- this is the very essence of ,,Time Bastard". If you want to postulate that this is merely memory-wiping without any physical replacement, you may do so, but it would be an unfounded distinction with no change for the end result.
Not really, if he had lost it, we wouldn't have seen him in the Vanguard Time Line then. The TTI is only the entrance to the time line. Whatever happens to the individual in whatever time line it is entering is fair game, as it is only it's being entering the time line that is secured, whatever happens after is not.
You are only confirming my theory, for this means that he had TTI up to a certain point, the point at which he stopped time-traveling. Through his temporal travels, he secured his existence in 600 A.D. However, as he was not an active participant in the events precluding the disappearance of the Masamune, he was not spared by the change, and the original version of him, who arrived in 600 and continued to live until his death in a world where the memory of Cyrus and the Masamune were present, ceased to exist. Again, this is Time Bastardization. Those memories and experiences are never recovered for the current Glenn himself, as he, due to his renewed participation in temporal changes, has a new TTI and thus cannot lose his memories and experiences of the Masamune-less timeline.
The same principle applies to the reptite-timeline-incident. Those who continue to participate actively in timeline-changes retain an Immunity which stays current and corresponds to their actions. Those who cease to participate actively lose it starting at the point at which they ceased to do so. This is why Glenn, Crono and Magus, contrary to Marle, Lucca and Robo, still have their memory of the events in the Reptite Time-Line. They themselves were the Chrono Triggers in this incident and on the cutting edge of this 5th dimension.
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The former ceases to exist and is replaced by the latter- this is the very essence of ,,Time Bastard". If you want to postulate that this is merely memory-wiping without any physical replacement, you may do so, but it would be an unfounded distinction with no change for the end result.
This is not Time Bastard. Time Bastard is the removal of alt-timeline versions of time travelers when they reach the age at which their time travel occurred. Marle/Lucca/Robo were erased by regular timeline deletion.
You know, I'm not sure if this is a good explanation, but it might be better to think of TTI as an event applied to every time travel, not a status granted by time traveling.
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The Marle, Lucca and Robo who experienced the Reptite-timeline were, after the intervention of Glenn, Crono and Magus, eliminated from existence. They were banished to the Darkness Beyond Time and replaced by a Marle, a Lucca and a Robo who were sent by King Zeal into an unaltered time-line. The former ceases to exist and is replaced by the latter- this is the very essence of ,,Time Bastard". If you want to postulate that this is merely memory-wiping without any physical replacement, you may do so, but it would be an unfounded distinction with no change for the end result.
You are only confirming my theory, for this means that he had TTI up to a certain point, the point at which he stopped time-traveling. Through his temporal travels, he secured his existence in 600 A.D. However, as he was not an active participant in the events precluding the disappearance of the Masamune, he was not spared by the change, and the original version of him, who arrived in 600 and continued to live until his death in a world where the memory of Cyrus and the Masamune were present, ceased to exist. Again, this is Time Bastardization. Those memories and experiences are never recovered for the current Glenn himself, as he, due to his renewed participation in temporal changes, has a new TTI and thus cannot lose his memories and experiences of the Masamune-less timeline.
The same principle applies to the reptite-timeline-incident. Those who continue to participate actively in timeline-changes retain an Immunity which stays current and corresponds to their actions. Those who cease to participate actively lose it starting at the point at which they ceased to do so. This is why Glenn, Crono and Magus, contrary to Marle, Lucca and Robo, still have their memory of the events in the Reptite Time-Line. They themselves were the Chrono Triggers in this incident and on the cutting edge of this 5th dimension.
You don't seem to understand. TTI is only the event of entering the time line at X point in time.
Look at it this way. Time follows it's natural course, it passes through 600 AD and Glenn enters thanks to TTI. Time still goes onward until 2305 AD, when King Zeal goes back in time and removes the Masamune. Now, starting from 11995 BC, a new time line has been created replacing the old one. Time now flows into this new one instead as the old one got sent to the DBT. Once it passes the 600 AD of this new time line, the same Glenn who entered the previous one will enter this one now, again, thanks to TTI.
The thing here is that the statement is 'Glenn enters the time line at X point'. Not, 'Glenn enters this time line or that time line at moment X'. Both cases is just the same individual entering the current time line. It's essentially like drawing a square in MS Paint, saving it when it's halfway done, that is, only two lines drawn, then you finish it. Then you quit the program without saving and open it again. And then you finish the square again.
In this analogy, the 2 lines drawn are Glenn as he is when entering the time line. The saving is the TTI. The drawing afterwards is what happens to him in the time line he is. And closing without saving and opening it again is the time line being changed, with the following drawing is what happens to him in the new time line. So you see, although both end results were squares, the last 2 lines drawn the first time aren't the last 2 lines drawn the second time. But in both cases the first 2 lines drawn are the same, regardless. What I mean is, it's the same individual just entering a different time line.
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It is you who does not seem to understand that I do understand.
I have already agreed with you that Glenn's TTI allows him to return to 600 regardless of further changes to the timeline. However, his lack of time-traveling afterward means that his existence/memories after this return to the post-Lavos/pre-King Zeal timeline are NOT secured.
This is not Time Bastard. Time Bastard is the removal of alt-timeline versions of time travelers when they reach the age at which their time travel occurred. Marle/Lucca/Robo were erased by regular timeline deletion.
Ah, excuse me. I seem to have misused the term. However, Time Traveler's Immunity is nonetheless of relevance when one starts speaking about "regular timeline deletion"
If, at the beginning of CE, Glenn had traveled from 605 to 1005, met up with Chrono, Lucca and Marle, accompanied them to 2305 and then to -11,995 where the Masamune was taken- The Glenn in CE would be the one who had lived for 5 years in a timeline where the Masamune and Cyrus were still present in history, even though this past was then changed by King Zeal's actions. He would not have lost his memories of this time. After the disappearance of the Masamune, he would then return to a 605 A.D. to find a world in which he, upon his return in 600 A.D. had founded the Vanguard, but would have personally no memory of this, since the Glenn who did that would have become a Time Bastard in 605 A.D. at the point where Glenn left this timeline to meet Chrono, Lucca and Marle in the present.
Since, however, he missed this chance, he loses his Immunity to temporal changes and becomes changed with the timeline.
You know, I'm not sure if this is a good explanation, but it might be better to think of TTI as an event applied to every time travel, not a status granted by time traveling.
Exactly. Glenn was granted TTI at his arrival in 600 AD after the defeat of Lavos, and he would have been granted it again, had he traveled in 605 AD before the actions of King Zeal, as postulated above. As, however, he did not, he was not immune to said changes, as were Crono, Magus and Glenn himself later on during the Reptite Time-Line Event.
A further interesting question is: What happens when "regular timeline deletion" occurs? Is the person physically the same instance, and is therefore nothing sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? Is it merely a memory-rearrangement executed by the timeline itself? (This would tend to support Bekkler's "Smart Time"-Theory)
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Wait, so your whole point of 'loosing TTI' was regarding to the memories and actions in the unaltered time line? Well then, why didn't you mentioned that in the first place? Since I already mentioned how the individual is only guaranteed the entrance to the time line and yet you kept going about loosing TTI and all that stuff. That caused the whole misconception.
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The way I see it, Frog should have kept his memories of being in the unchanged Middle Ages for 5 years, because of the precedent set with Doan in CT, it seems that the changes to the timelines don't necessarily occur immediately, rather sort of like a row of cars behind a red light, when it turns green they don't all start going forward, all wait while the first one starts to move, then the closest behind it, then the closest behind that one, and so on. It's like a ripple in a pond, to which the changes have already been compared in canon.
Rather than Back-To-The-Futuring it, the world should have changed around Frog in 605AD, like how the gates show up in the first place, bonded not to a fixed point, but at fixed relative locations from each other in each era.
The original Frog that was alive for five years in an unchanged Middle Ages who allegedly had TTI is not the same Frog who comes out at 600AD and lives through the changed Middle Ages. They have different experiences and memories. If nothing else that would have been a good opportunity to show the disappearance of a Time Bastard, perhaps, where the original Frog remained and the imposter altered event frog was expelled to the DBT before our eyes.
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But then why does Belthasar in Chrono Cross arrives in the saved future with no memory of what happened to him in the ruined future? Sure, he later learned stuff but that was after dwelling in the time-space research he did after.
Okay, sure, Chrono Cross is a whole different game, but it is still tied to Chrono Trigger and theoretically or not, the same rules should apply.
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Hmm. Well I had always just assumed ruined future Belthasar died because of the sad moment of de-powering the Nu, which ended his timeline.
Then the saved future Belthasar gets to live on past the death date.
But, that's still more complicated than it needs to be, to work, it just requires the ruined future version of him to be a TB, in other words, not the original. So he shows up in the "original" semiruined future, pre-Crono&Co, maybe dies maybe not, but then the future changes and Crono gets involved in the timeline, and we have the version of Belthasar that pops out of that timeline. Then he dies but it's ok cause Crono&Co actually save the future and the final version of him pops out, which is really the original being restored?
That's as good as I've got for now.
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Wait, so your whole point of 'loosing TTI' was regarding to the memories and actions in the unaltered time line? Well then, why didn't you mentioned that in the first place? Since I already mentioned how the individual is only guaranteed the entrance to the time line and yet you kept going about loosing TTI and all that stuff. That caused the whole misconception.
I did say so. Look:
The only explanation I can think of, is that one loses Time Traveler's Immunity if one does not continue to actively participate in the events of the 5th dimension. Therefore, since Glenn was not present for the disappearance of the Masamune, he became, after his return to 600, a part of the timeline that was changed, and was changed with it. Therefore, he remembers there having always been a Kasmir since his return to 600, although this was not originally the case. He still has his Masamune and his memories of the way things were before 600, because these were relevant to his time-travels.
The way I see it, Frog should have kept his memories of being in the unchanged Middle Ages for 5 years, because of the precedent set with Doan in CT, it seems that the changes to the timelines don't necessarily occur immediately, rather sort of like a row of cars behind a red light, when it turns green they don't all start going forward, all wait while the first one starts to move, then the closest behind it, then the closest behind that one, and so on. It's like a ripple in a pond, to which the changes have already been compared in canon.
The two situations are not the same. Chrono Trigger maybe takes place within a week starting at the appearance of the gates. Therefore, let's say that about a week passed in each of the eras in which gates appeared. The Doan whom Crono and co. met in 2300 was encountered within this time. Lavos was also defeated within a "week" if we consider his appearance in 1999 (his presence within the timeline being less clear when one confronts him through the Black Omen). Therefore, if Time is, as you say, a ripple, and the changes should correspond to the relative placement within each era (as I also postulated in my first post), Doan should disappear at the point in 2300 which corresponds to the point in 1999 at which Crono and co. defeated Lavos.
Applying this logic, the change should have been immediate. In Glenn's case, 5 years have passed in all eras, so the situation is a bit different.
The original Frog that was alive for five years in an unchanged Middle Ages who allegedly had TTI is not the same Frog who comes out at 600AD and lives through the changed Middle Ages. They have different experiences and memories. If nothing else that would have been a good opportunity to show the disappearance of a Time Bastard, perhaps, where the original Frog remained and the imposter altered event frog was expelled to the DBT before our eyes.
this would only have made sense if Glenn had, as I proposed above, traveled through time from 605 to meet Crono, Lucca and Marle and been present for the removal of the Masamune. But then, we would have never met the Altered-World-Glenn. As it is done in CE. It is the original Glenn who vanishes and we are left with the new one.
But then why does Belthasar in Chrono Cross arrives in the saved future with no memory of what happened to him in the ruined future? Sure, he later learned stuff but that was after dwelling in the time-space research he did after.
Okay, sure, Chrono Cross is a whole different game, but it is still tied to Chrono Trigger and theoretically or not, the same rules should apply.
Belthasar's change is actually with the concept behind Glenn's change in CE. Since he did not time-travel after his arrival in 2300 A.D., he has no immunity to changes in the timeline.
This does, however, not explain the presence of Doan in the court of Guardia.
But, that's still more complicated than it needs to be, to work, it just requires the ruined future version of him to be a TB, in other words, not the original. So he shows up in the "original" semiruined future, pre-Crono&Co, maybe dies maybe not, but then the future changes and Crono gets involved in the timeline, and we have the version of Belthasar that pops out of that timeline. Then he dies but it's ok cause Crono&Co actually save the future and the final version of him pops out, which is really the original being restored?
Impossible. The timeline before the intervention of Crono & co. contains a ruined future (that is why they find it so). The future of the timeline after their intervention is clearly NOT the original, as it is not ruined.
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There's a semiruined future, that doesnt include the Ocean Palace incident in its history, then a superruined future, where they're all down with OP (yeah you know me:P ) then a saved future where they kill Lavos. That's all I meant, there are at least three "futures".
If it helps to reiterate, it goes:
1. No Crono&Co involvement (this one goes off without help)
2. Crono&Co involved but future not saved yet (this one IS the game)
3. Saved future timeline (the end)
Anyway, I think I'm done arguing about this stuff.
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There's a semiruined future, that doesnt include the Ocean Palace incident in its history, then a superruined future, where they're all down with OP (yeah you know me:P ) then a saved future where they kill Lavos. That's all I meant, there are at least three "futures".
If it helps to reiterate, it goes:
1. No Crono&Co involvement (this one goes off without help)
2. Crono&Co involved but future not saved yet (this one IS the game)
3. Saved future timeline (the end)
OP? ... Opium?! :o
Chrono & co.'s presence in -12000 doesn't seem to change much at all in 2300 except for the presence of the Black Omen.
Anyway, I think I'm done arguing about this stuff.
Thanks for stopping by. Now go forth, and complete Chrono Shift! I want an excellent story, and no Kefka-music! (I don't really expect you to listen to me on that last point)
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An excellent story you shall receive!
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Very interesting thread. For me it always was kind of strange why frog should change into the unaltered Glenn during CE.
Can someone explain why he should lose his time traveler immunity and if he does for whatever reason why he should still have memories of the past time travels?
Another thing which is hopefully not too offtopic. What about the lost time traveler immunity in Chrono Trigger? There was indeed only one scene like that, Marles disappearing in 600AD. What could have made her inimmune to the altered past?
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From what I understand the time travelers immunity works in such a way that if Frog travels through time he remembers what happened even if his time line changes. So lets imagine he goes off through time with the others and lets say while there out changing things Magus decides to kill Cyrus when he was a nobody. Glenn gets back to his time line and no one remembers Cyrus, everything is different but Glenn still remembers because he was in the process of time traveling and he is immune to the time change and retains his old memories, and his frog like form.
That is why he still remembers his adventures with his friends, he time traveled with them etc. Now lets pretend they all run off with out Glenn leaving him in his time and say Magus is having another bad day and murders King Guardia at a young age. Glenn is immune to this change because he time traveled and has and will keep unaltered memories of his adventures and remembers and will continue to remember that King Guardia is supposed to be alive. So in Glenn's experience he will literally wake up and King Guardia will be dead and everything will be different but he will still remember. That's the time traveler immunity in a nutshell.
This is why Glenn notices that everything changed around him in Crimson Echoes. Why he notices the war with the mystics is not supposed to be going on etc. Because he remembers because he is immune to change that was caused after his time traveling adventure.
So if we pretend Magus just cant get any meaner and he gates exactly to 694 A.D. before Crono and company go on their adventure and kills Queen Leene Frog would not know the difference and would not have his time traveler immunity. I think XD
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Thanks for making this clear. So he can actually be affected when he was killed by another time traveler as, lets say, a baby.
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Yes
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Thanks for making this clear. So he can actually be affected when he was killed by another time traveler as, lets say, a baby.
Well, that would only be possible if the one being killed is his latest version. Otherwise, no, he would still be fine, though freaking out any witness when they next see him alive despite ''supposedly'' being killed, since it was a past self that was going to be TB'ed anyway. :lol:
From what I understand the time travelers immunity works in such a way that if Frog travels through time he remembers what happened even if his time line changes. So lets imagine he goes off through time with the others and lets say while there out changing things Magus decides to kill Cyrus when he was a nobody. Glenn gets back to his time line and no one remembers Cyrus, everything is different but Glenn still remembers because he was in the process of time traveling and he is immune to the time change and retains his old memories, and his frog like form.
That is why he still remembers his adventures with his friends, he time traveled with them etc. Now lets pretend they all run off with out Glenn leaving him in his time and say Magus is having another bad day and murders King Guardia at a young age. Glenn is immune to this change because he time traveled and has and will keep unaltered memories of his adventures and remembers and will continue to remember that King Guardia is supposed to be alive. So in Glenn's experience he will literally wake up and King Guardia will be dead and everything will be different but he will still remember. That's the time traveler immunity in a nutshell.
This is why Glenn notices that everything changed around him in Crimson Echoes. Why he notices the war with the mystics is not supposed to be going on etc. Because he remembers because he is immune to change that was caused after his time traveling adventure.
So if we pretend Magus just cant get any meaner and he gates exactly to 694 A.D. before Crono and company go on their adventure and kills Queen Leene Frog would not know the difference and would not have his time traveler immunity. I think XD
Actually, to Frog the change wouldn't happen while he is in the time line itself. One time travel won't save you from further changes if you don't time travel again. What is protected is everything witnessed before doing a time travel. In order to remember King Guardia isn't suppose to have died, he'd need to have time traveled before the moment of the murder and reentered at any future point of the fact.
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Ahh! I knew I didn't have it completely correct :D That actually makes more sense.
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Well keep in mind TTI and TB are fan-created concepts and do not 100% accurately portray the way time travel works in the official games. The first instance of time travel in CT is the Marle Paradox and it implies that Mage was absolutely correct and that one could travel into the past, kill Glenn, and he would never become Frog OR join the team. Honestly the way time travel works in the games is "however the story needs it to work".
And personally, I like to think that in Crimson Echoes, TTI and TB are just Belthasar's way of trying to understand and explain time travel.
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To be fair, Marle's case is very isolated to any other effect of the time traveling done in the game, even without bringing TTI and TB into the equation.
Except for that one case, the plot doesn't seem to go on it's way to create paradoxes or establish time traveling to be predestined:
The characters can still see the ruined future even if they eventually defeat Lavos, Melchior doesn't recognize the party on the present or the fact that in the end he never ended up finishing the Masamune back in Antiquity considering that he recognized the sword itself when the party brought it to him to fix it, the Black Omen is not ominously floating over in the sky already, etc.
There clearly is a pattern that any change doesn't happen until the event that creates that change actually happens. So then why Marle disappears while Queen Leene is still alive? Even if the events had transpired in a way that still allowed Yakra to kill her (which I doubt considering that Lucca could've easily brought the issue up, even if Marle hadn't disappeared yet), Marle wouldn't have to disappear until the deed was done. Even her return was still some time after Queen Leene was already out of harm's way. In the end it makes the Marle Paradox look like an exception, not part of the rule.
So in my opinion, the Marle Paradox is not a point to bring up as a definite claim. Even TTI and TB have grounds to back up theirs, but even without them, the Marle Paradox still stands out due to how different is from any other instance of time travel of the game.
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I would say that it could be ignored if not for the fact that it is the first instance of time travel in game. First impressions are important, and this is no exception. TB and TTI are not consistent with the game 100%.
My smart time theory covers it in a way that doesn't conflict with anything in game, be it Trigger or Cross, and in a way that's easier for the casual player to wrap their head around. It's in the timeline analysis section if you want to look at it. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it is an alternative to TB that has been mostly ignored by Compendiumites and I'm sure there are other possible theories as well that could work just fine.
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Maybe I'm looking at a tangent, but didn't the plot of CT came up as various people working on separates areas of it which then was pieced together at the end? Like how Kato worked exclusively, or almost so, on the Antiquity events. I'm not saying that because whoever was in the charge of the Cathedral events wanted to use one of the most classic paradoxes in time travel in a time traveling game should be the de-facto answer to handwave the inconsistency, or to stop trying to establish theories that can explain it and everything else at the same time.
But at the same time, won't this should be a sign that it may not be wise to take it that seriously beyond a certain point? After all, there doesn't seem to be other cases than the likes of the Marle Pardox. Like for example, once Magus gets sent to Antiquity and Melchior is imprisoned in Mt. Woe, he obviously didn't had time to finish the Masamune. By the same logic of the Marle Paradox, Frog's Masamune should've regressed to the Red Knife until the original got embedded in the Mammon Machine and was completed, but that wasn't the case. What I mean is, that if there is no consistency or repeated cases, then how can it be taken as part of the norm?
But in a way I can understand. The Marle Paradox is still a canon event whose implications and impact can't just be ignore due to that it played out, isolated or not. But again, I think it's more suited to be treated as an exception, rather than part of the rule. And this also goes for the theories created here.
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Thread resurrection! For anyone still lurking.
So i've been re-watching the CE memorial lately and i'm kind of curious about the Medina Peninsula. One of the little goblins mentions that its been recently finished and has a strange hum at night.
Also Ozzie VIII is missing and i'm wondering if there is a connection? If you read the note by the spy in Porre I think its pretty clear that Porre is up to no good involving the mystics, - it sounds like they killed Ozzie the VIII but I wasn't sure if there was anything more to the rock or a way to enter it?