Author Topic: C&D: Director's Response  (Read 53112 times)

V_Translanka

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #255 on: May 25, 2009, 12:09:12 am »
When in doubt, remember these sage words from Ramsus...

Also, for the newer members, this isn't 4chan. Have fun if you want, but don't be asses...

;)

kando

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #256 on: May 25, 2009, 01:01:18 am »
Quote
They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!

I can think of one similar gaming example where the wheels of business were reversed

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html It's number 4 on the page. Nintendo apologized for mistakingly C&Ding a porn site for mentioning zelda. Maybe a bit of hope. Although this is different square could be sending you free games in the end!

Also you should definitely let Lowtax from something awful do the the negotiations with Square he has a good record:P http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/  Maybe he'll be good inspiration reading that stuff is more fun the hungry hungry hippos.  :D





hmmmm...that gave me hope =)

HadesKane

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #257 on: May 27, 2009, 09:52:21 pm »
This thread (starting with about page 16) is a lot more interesting now that we know that Dark Serge was behind it all, and to see his responses into everything offers a bit of clarity, including his insistence that the "guess" of his last name wasn't valid.

kattrali

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #258 on: May 27, 2009, 10:12:02 pm »
He was really starting to creep me out. And I didn't even have a suspicion it was him until the very end.  I still want to know why, but I don't care to spend any more energy trying to know.

OverlordMikey

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #259 on: May 27, 2009, 10:37:25 pm »
He was really starting to creep me out. And I didn't even have a suspicion it was him until the very end.  I still want to know why, but I don't care to spend any more energy trying to know.

I was suspicious of Dark Serge in the beginning (I don't think I said anything about it. I didn't wanna come off as paranoid) but he sidetracked my suspicious and I assumed I was being paranoid. THE ONE TIME I DO THAT AND BANG I was right…..figures huh. On the other hand I has a pretty good ability to judge how bad a movie is gonna be.

jodas765

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #260 on: May 28, 2009, 12:09:13 am »
I'm somewhat new to this forum, but I have had an idea about this for awhile. Is it possible that due to the cease and desist letter from the chrono trigger restoration project and chrono trigger resurrection that Dark serge or whoever it might be doctored up this letter? I have done something like forging certificates and stuff like that. It isn't that hard and you can make it look real as long as you have the passion to do it. You only need something like gimp or even paint. Create a text box and change the font to look exactly like the rest of the paper and you have yourself a doctored letter that is really convincing.

Before you assume anything, when I say forge I don't mean big things like checks or something like that. I'm just throwing out the possibility that this might be the one way of looking at the cease and desist letter. It might have been said before, but what would really help is if you had a copy of the cease and desist letters from the old projects that received one.

If you haven't done so already, try this out. Plus don't slaughter the project and erase it from existence. That wouldn't be cool. Expecially if this entire thing turned out to be a hoax. Even if it is real. I would still keep a copy for myself. Letting hard work on something like this go to waste and completely deleting it isn't the answer, and you would regret it later. Just my two cents. .... I still am looking forward to this game. Don't erase it from existence...Keep the dream alive. Thanks for your hardwork. :)

Mikisho

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #261 on: May 28, 2009, 12:18:40 am »
Square has stated it's real.  Serge didn't forge it.

FaustWolf

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #262 on: May 28, 2009, 12:22:13 am »
The clincher is that several Compendium members have called SE to confirm. All we have right now is just our word and a very poorly-worded C&D order. We fully realize that might not be enough a lot of skeptics, so that's part of the drive to get the video walkthrough released. If everyone sees the full game from beginning to end in late beta phase, hopefully the conspiracy theories will start to unravel.

Ctfan

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But The Future Refused To Change...
« Reply #263 on: October 15, 2009, 03:39:45 am »
READ FIRST: Ok so, let me start by saying...I read most of this forum already, I know most of the current situation (But not all of it) from these posts. I guess this would be some sort of an intro post for me to the forums...yay :)

Second: Reading the first little bit and hearing about the 12 yr old's giving advice and middle aged people sitting in their basements...I assure you I'm not 12. More like 20. I will not be pulling a hate post saying "OMG SQUARE ENIX IS GAY". I've supported them for years, buying their products. Side note being I hate their decisions on games, and this is one of them. They royally messed up Final Fantasy, and they're about to do the same with Chrono Trigger. As for the basement part, it's like 1:44 AM here, I decided I'd post some of my thoughts on this matter. Although, people really need to stop pulling the legality's into this matter, because it could get a lot of people in trouble.

Ok so, lets start on the post.

When I found out about Chrono Trigger, I was about 5 or 6 years old. Man, did I ever think it was such an awesome game. My Grandmother (Yeah, believe it or not back in the day) had this game, and I'd BEG her constantly to let me borrow the game. Whenever I could borrow the game off of her, I would. A few of my cousins on that side of the family would have save files. I don't know why but I would constantly delete them (because you could only hold 3 :() and I liked to save certain portions of the game. I didn't know much at the time, so I really sucked at it. As time went on however, I progressed further and further and learned as much as I possibly could about the game from my family members that would play it. I don't know if this hit any of you, but when I discovered Zeal for the first time, I was literally blown away by its music, its atmosphere, and its tragic end. I was around 7 when I finally got around to getting that far (Yeah, Turtles in Time really ate up my time, that and a Sony Playstation.) One of the most saddest days of my life would of been when my Grandmother sold the game, and I lost all chances of playing that game when I could. This game took up most of my childhood, not being able to play it took it up a lot more.

When I heard the news, I IMMEDIATELY sprung into action, and went to the local rental store. My god, was that game ever rented out a lot. The few chances I HAD to rent it, I did. I remember racking up a few bills on my Dad's account there because I forgot to bring it back, 10 days late. But, this further fueled my sadness when the rental store moved onto only Playstation games in or around 1998ish. Yeah, I was forced to move onto the Playstation's crappy games. But what I really wanted, was that copy of Chrono Trigger.

Me as a kid then was just constantly talking about the game. Asking people if they played it, knew what it was, knew how far they got and how far I got, had some discussions...But sadly, not a lot of people played it. Until around early 2001.

See, I used to bug my Dad to get me a copy of that Official Playstation Magazine. I loved all the demos it had in there and such. By now, FF7 has worked its way onto my computer, and I was constantly playing that. Why? Because, it reminded me of Chrono Trigger. Same with Final Fantasy 6 on the Playstation. I didn't know much about gaming companies and stuff, but I knew the connection it had after a while. One day, I got a magazine with the cover saying that they were going to re-release Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 4 on the Playstation! Man, the joy I felt was amazing. I read the article at least 4 times a week on the bus just eying down the pictures and the details of it. Finally! My VERY own copy of Chrono Trigger! I was SO excited, I told EVERYONE that I knew.

I remember working where I could around the house to scrounge up money for the game. I BEGGED my Mom for some money to get it, and I finally did. You should of seen how FAST I ran to the store down the street (Zellers) to go and buy this game. But little did I know...

See, this is where things started to get messed up.

You all must of played it for the PS1, correct? Man, they (Sorry for swearing but...) FUCKED up the port SO badly. But I was 11 going on 12. I really didn't care THAT much. All I cared about is that I had my own copy, and I could play it as much as I wanted to! I loved the new features. Until then, I didn't even know they had that many endings. I collected as much as I could, and played the crap out of it.

As time grew on, Middle and High School kicked in...and I began to loose interest. Well, seeing as how they only released Chrono Cross as "somewhat" of a sequel to Chrono Trigger, it really didn't expand much on the story in my mind at the time. All I cared about was..."What happened to Magus? What became of the group...did they actually die?" Yeah, I was really confused and wanted answers, and I went seeking for them.

When I was 14, I joined IRC. This is where I got "Ctfan" from, it just kinda stuck. I found a site that had a devoted fan base to fan fiction and the like about Chrono Trigger, and they had an IRC channel. So, I promptly joined. I remember my FIRST night on there was probably about a good 6-7 hours after school just talking to people about how much of a fan I was, and to know that there were other people out there like me. At the time I didn't have the proper skills to make my own website and such (yeah, I didn't know anything, really.) Looking back on it, the website looks like crap but...it was there. People just expressed their feelings and encouraged others to do the same. I was hooked. A year or two passed, and the people in the channel lost interest, and I moved on.

Around this time, I was 16. I personally lost interest in the series myself, but I never forgot about it. I focused on my High Schooling to become a better student to "try" my best to make my mark on the gaming industry. There is a LOT more of games I could name off of the top of my head that Squaresoft made, not just Chrono Trigger. But see the thing was, it was like they dropped all interest in Chrono Trigger and moved onto "Final Fantasy". Don't get me wrong, I <3 my Final Fantasy, but as I stated before, they just messed it up in later years. I know some people will disagree with me, but this is not a general opinion, just my own.

So fast forwarding into my final year of High School. Chrono Trigger was still fresh on my mind (as I recently played it a few times when I decided to unshelf my Playstation for a while.) Man, the excitement just came back to me. It was like playing the story from a fresh new perspective. I learned a lot more then I would of when I was younger. My knowledge finally reached it's peak. I wanted a new Chrono sequel, and I wanted it then.

I heard about the Compendium from reading some stuff on Wikipedia. Knowing of a fan base THIS large made me feel right at home. Reading updates on some of the Chrono Trigger Pre-Release WAS pretty much my daily reading material. Lots of people shared my views (from what I read) about making another Chrono Trigger sequel. This is when I found out about CE. Man, did that ever seem like a cool concept. Fans were actually taking action into their own hands. I didn't read much about it, because I recently heard at the time about Chrono Resurrection, and that having a C&D order. Granted, this made me want to think that Square was toiling away at a new re-release to the Chrono series. And, they finally took action.

About 2 summers ago, after finishing my first year of College, my friend linked me to a site with the suspected release of Chrono Trigger DS. And guess what, it was true! I REALLY was jumping for joy. The NEXT day I went out and tried to make a pre-order for the game, but they haven't even heard of it yet they told me. I was a bit angry, and gave a bit of a lecture. Then I left. After about a few weeks, it finally got announced to them, and I made my pre-order...4 MONTHS in advance. Yes, I was that excited for the game. I was excited that Square Enix took action...adding all the new content with the new feel with stylus controls and new dungeons. I was sold. Eventually when it came out, I bought it. I remember I grew a beard and REFUSED to shave it until I beat the game. Took me about a week (what with work and school), but I finally did. I felt triumphant! This is when I noticed the comparisons somewhat to the CT PS port, and this one was just amazing. It ACTUALLY gave me a lot of replay value, and I expected none the less from a Chrono game.

I know to some of you this might sound like a bunch of senseless garbage, but it's MY personal experience with Chrono Trigger. The excitement of a game that made me adore it for going on 15 years now. I know that those letters to Square Enix to show your support for a game rarely get read if any (Not like for games that Capcom made). Capcom listens to their fans, Square-Enix on the other hand...doesn't (Most of the time). If its non-Final Fantasy, I bet you your comments are probably ignored. I don't know because I never actually tried to send an email to show my respect for CT, but I heard stories over forums. They go no where.

I just recently learned of the C&D for CE. Like I said in the beginning, I won't get into legal talk or anything to keep people from getting in trouble but...Here's where the hate comes out.

Square Enix, you as a company haven't listened to requests as much as you should be. Yes, I know you released a CT DS port, but still, that's not enough. What's the damn hold up here?! Excuse me if I quote Wikipedia here.

(In the first May Famitsu of 2009, Chrono Trigger placed 14th out of 50 in a vote of most-wanted sequels by the magazine's readers. At E3 2009, SE Senior Vice President Shinji Hashimoto remarked, "If people want a sequel, they should buy more!")

Yeah, see that's total garbage. I think since Enix leeched onto Squaresoft, they started screwing with the stuff we love the most. Squaresoft (I don't use the Enix part too much, because I don't think Enix should be getting any type of success at all, just because they're latched with Squaresoft.) needs to listen to our needs. Obviously they know were out there (The fans). They KNOW we want a sequel or at least a bridge between CT and CC. YEAH, LETS BUY MORE AND SUPPORT THEM SO THEY GET MORE MONEY AND MAKE OTHER GAMES NOT RELATED TO THE CHRONO SERIES. I think they like messing with us. Yeah, line their pockets and don't produce another game for us. I bet CT DS did well in sales...and with CE getting noticed by them...they know we want it, and we would pay for it. So Square...Enix see us as a community...like Capcom does with the Mega Man, and take that into consideration on how well Mega Man 9 sold...and give us another Chrono game already! We will support you in purchases, as will many more. Just don't linger on it for too long. By personal experience, people will be losing interest, and fast. Not a very good marketing move in my opinion, but once again, thats just an opinion. So don't throw a hissy fit my way saying on how I'm throwing out slander to your company. I purchase the games you make, I love Final Fantasy, and you are the guys that MADE Chrono Trigger. I just wanted to give an opinion that wasn't so..."Go f*** yourself, Square Enix". You did WONDERS with FF4 The After Years, why can't you do the same with Chrono?

I hope that this C&D was a point in the direction of having another game made for the Chrono franchise (as I figured the C&D on Chrono Ressurection was to lead up to CT DS.) I would be saddened if this wasn't. If Chrono Trigger taught me, as a fan anything...it would be that there still is that one "Ray of shining hope" that will change things as we know it for the better. I got that inspiration from your game SE, live up to your words.

As for me? Sorry about my ramblings. If Square Enix really IS trolling these forums, it must be the only place that my voice can really be heard then being thrown out by them. I want them to know that I AM a loyal fan, and this game was very influential part of my life.

I'm currently in College (my final year) to become a Graphic Designer with some Animation (2d/3d)/Web Design under my belt. I finally believe that I am ready to contribute to the Chrono community, and that I shall. I hope my designs and the such that I would make in my free time (once I get more well known) will inspire other people to become fans, and to inspire Square Enix to make another game. It's a long shot, but I'm committed to doing it, as you as a fan base have been doing for so many years.

Thank you very much for your time, everyone.

FaustWolf

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #264 on: October 15, 2009, 02:35:45 pm »
Ctfan, we look forward to seeing some of your graphic design talent!

As for the rambling, jeez, any of us could probably whip up something like that. Chrono has affected our lives to a huge degree. I might not have developed any creative writing skills had it not been for Chrono sparking my imagination and making me write horrid fanfics when I was 11.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #265 on: October 15, 2009, 09:24:09 pm »
Welcome!  Yeah, Chrono was a piece of personal development for me, too!  That's what makes us kin, I guess!

LONG LIVE THE CHRONO TRIGGER.

GenesisOne

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #266 on: October 16, 2009, 02:36:02 pm »

I've been doing my research (like I always do when it comes to hot-button issues), and I found out...

You guys got slammed with the wrong letter.   :shock:

It is true that ROM modification is illegal (because the ROM itself is copyrighted), and it's also true that Chrono Trigger is the intellectual property of Squeenix.

However...

Your actions amounted not to copyright infringement, but... a derivative work.

In the United States, the Copyright Act defines "derivative work" in 17 U.S.C. § 101:

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more pre-existing works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.

See this link on how you could get away with "fair use" of a derivative work because, according to Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., "...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

This is just how I interpreted it.  What says you?




FaustWolf

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #267 on: October 16, 2009, 03:09:18 pm »
I agree that Lewis Galoob Toys provides a grounds on which to argue that fans can back up and mod their games, and since the Game Genie was distributed, it might also be grounds on which to argue that distribution of mods in patch form is permissable.

It's probably too late for Crimson Echoes since the C&D has already been issued, but fan project teams would probably do well to reference Lewis Galoob Toys vs. Nintendo in their readmes from this point forward. At least it would complicate the IP holder's potential claim of "willful" copyright infringement to some degree.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 03:10:49 pm by FaustWolf »

GenesisOne

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #268 on: October 16, 2009, 03:31:50 pm »

Yeah.  To me, the term "intellectual property" is a ridiculous concept to perpetuate within U.S. law.

Richard Stallman (creator of the GNU project)

"...it systematically distorts and confuses these issues, and its use was and is promoted by those who gain from this confusion... it operates as a catch-all to lump together disparate laws [which] originated separately, evolved differently, cover different activities, have different rules, and raise different public policy issues."

If such a thing didn't exist, CE wouldn't be where it is right now.  It's ridiculous.

In light of these findings, I do declare that we get the CE development team back together and start from scratch.  What I would give to see Squeenix take their lumps for taking away five years of those people's lives and all that hard work just so they can save face.

GenesisOne

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #269 on: October 16, 2009, 04:01:20 pm »
Try this letter on for size:

*      *      *      *      *      *

To the Legal Department of Square Enix, Ltd.,

This letter is in concern to a Cease and Desist letter that you sent on May 8, 2009 to an independent development company called Kajar Laboratories in regards to their version of a ROM hack titled “Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes”, a derivative work of “Chrono Trigger “ © 1995.

Based on current “fair use” (Title 17 U.S.C. § 107) and “derivative work” (Title 17 U.S.C. § 101) guidelines and in reference to the Supreme Court ruling of Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, 1992):

“…the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."

The case in its written entirety can be found here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

 “CT: CE” was a modified version of Chrono Trigger in patch form.  It met the criteria for Fair Use as specified by the ruling of the above case:

"The doctrine of fair use allows a holder of the privilege to use copyrighted material in a reasonable manner without the consent of the copyright owner.”  In your original letter, you failed to demonstrate or provide examples as to how CT: CE was unreasonable in its production.

As such, the distribution of CT: CE was permissible under Fair Use and did not violate the Copyright Act of 1976. From here on, Kajar Laboratories will restart its five-year work on CT: CE which was lost due to your hasty actions earlier this year.

Any attempt to send another Cease & Desist Letter will be met with fierce legal action.  In the event of the court ruling in Kajar Laboratories’ favor, your company will pay compensation equal to the amount threatened in your original Cease & Desist Letter, which was $150,000.

Sincerely,

The Chrono Compendium, and the undersigned.

*      *      *      *      *      *
It's only a sample letter, but it can stand some improvement.  How would you go about fixing it?  (Besides deleting it altogether, of course.)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 05:13:05 pm by GenesisOne »