Chrono Compendium

News and Updates => Site Updates => Topic started by: FaustWolf on May 11, 2009, 09:26:58 pm

Title: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 11, 2009, 09:26:58 pm
The following was composed by Agent12, director of the Crimson Echoes project, to clarify on the first announcement regarding the very real Cease and Desist Order the Chrono Compendium received from Square Enix on May 8. Some have surmised that the C&D may be a hoax, but rest assured that this situation is real and not a hoax.


Hello Everyone,

If you are not sure what's going, on please take a brief visit to www.crimsonechoes.com.

Pretty intense weekend.  I'm sorry for taking so long to respond, as I went white water rafting over the weekend and came back to this little fiasco.  This post is going to first give everyone a my feelings on the matter, answer some questions and highlight what we can do going forward.

First of all a bit of history. I started working on this project several years ago.  I've poured an embarrassing amount of time into this game, but despite what you may think it never consumed my life. I took 2 years off the project when school got rough and then came back and steamrolled the game to the finish. I vowed to never let this impact my social life and made sure that my peers did the same.  This game was a hobby for me; it was a fun way to use my computing background and probably helped me land a job (well....at least a little bit).  I also took it as a a way to practice my team leading skills, and I hope I didn't anger anyone that worked on the project (I was very very picky about how people worked on this game).  In fact, anyone who worked on the project, feel free to give me feedback on how you felt I did; I'm honestly interested.  So back on point, this game is secondary in my life.  I'm in a very good place right now and am not willing to jeopardize everything I have for a hobby. I firmly believe that SE is wrong in this case, but I'm not willing to become a martyr over it.  I always considered this to be a form of fan art, no different than if someone made a flash video, picture, or novel.

When the C&D came, I ripped the ROM into 4 seperate pieces and flew each piece to a separate part of the world.  Each piece is protected -- not just by a giant martial arts trained monkey, but also by a series of riddles that get increasingly difficult.  To put it in perspective, destroying this game is probably what Da Vinci would feel like if he had to rip the Mona Lisa in half right before adding the final touches on her finger nails.  It's one of the more difficult decisions I've had to make, but remember this is just a hobby for me.


OK, onto some of the things I've been reading on the internets:

You guys are cowards/idiots just release the game:

This is so ridiculously easy to say when you are not the person who received the C & D letter. I'm beating a dead horse here, but I am not willing to put my life on the line for this.  These people didn't just have our names and addresses, but threatened a fine up to 150,000 dollars in the event that the game gets "distributed".   I'm sorry; it honestly isn't worth it. Also, please stop comparing us getting a letter to the pirate bay getting a letter.  They are not only in a different country but they are not the creators of the content that is copyrighted.  And oh yea.......they were found guilty too.


Yea right, you guys just couldn't finish and wanted attention

I hope the videos that were put on crimsonechoes.com would stop this nonsense. If not those then the beta testers who have played through the game start to finish.  If not those, then the updates we have been doing over the last couple of months ramping up to the release.  If not those, then the fact that I'm just that awesome :)

The letter's photoshopped, the light is bouncing off it all wrong, definitely photoshopped

You know what.......i really do hope you guys are right about this one. If it's not real they did a pretty good job, better than most internet idiots I come across. The headers, address, cited laws, etc seem to checkout.  Except I'm not 100% sure what their beef with TF is? Anyway, the e-mail header checked out, so it legitimately came from SE.


why in the WORLD would you put that incrimnating piece of info in the readme

First of all, read the whole thing (they left out the middle part...):

Quote
The fans and members of Kajar Laboratories acknowledge that under

M. Kramer Manufacturing Company, Inc. v. Andrews,  783 F.2d 421 (4th Cir. 1986),

ROM altering and modification is illegal, and the demo has been made without the consent of Square Enix. However, Kajar Laboratories wishes that Square Enix view it as a piece of fanfiction or other fan-related work, falling in the general body of fan community proceedings that are too numerous to prosecute and summarily have a positive effect on the popularity of its games. Should Square Enix perceive the project as a threat to its sales or intellectual property, Kajar Laboratories will immediately cease operation on the project and comply with Square Enix's orders.

This readme was for the demo (~1 chapter). We certainly hadn't poured 5 years of work into the game at this point.  It wouldn't be a big deal at all if SE would have wanted to shut us down at this point, so we thought we would give them a way to do it nicely.  The makers of CE do NOT want to be enemies of SE, we are probably their biggest fans.  I really really really wish they would have taken action back then though....

Unfortunately their lack of action back then made us more confident that they didn't mind our work :(.  Prophets Guile was released without a hitch and had several thousand downloads.  The ROM hacking community for 2D/SNES games seemed to be chugging along without a second thought.  So we didn't mind giving an update here and there (skeleton code finished, beta testing started etc) because we honestly truly believed Square Enix was ok with us.

~

OK, let's talk future.  This morning I sent an email back to Square Enix Legal asking if we could work on some sort of negotiation.  Go ahead and lecture me oh how pointless this is, I'm a pretty smart dude (even though I use the word dude) and realize that I'm not talking to people -- I'm talking to lawyers; but after searching quite awhile for any sort of communication channel I couldn't find any.  In my opinion, this is the best bet we have.  Some points I made:

* I explained to them that this was simply a new form of fan art
* The aforementioned fan art was made by their most devoted fans
* The actions taken would only serve to anger the fan community
* We never distributed the ROM Image and adamantly told people to only use our product if they legally owned the game

* That we never ever ever ever ever wanted to make profit off of this game, to the point that the compendium doesn't even have ads on it

You get the jist.  I wouldn't hold your breath, though.

Other than that the absolute best thing you can do is let our story be known.  While I'm not willing to be crucified for CE, I wouldn't mind CE being an example to help out any future hacks. I truly do think that this is the future of fan appreciation and should be taken as a sign of flattery not competition.  I will be willing to answer any questions for any gaming websites or even social media websites (just ping me here).  I created aliases on digg and reddit (CEAgent12, and agent12 respectively; how annoying that agent12 was taken). Please feel free to send out this story to any gaming website you know; I feel like the story is pretty interesting and raises some interesting questions (though I am biased of course :) ).  And for goodness sake, if anyone knows someone at SquareEnix who would be able to open a channel of communication please let us know.   


http://digg.com/nintendo/Chrono_Trigger_sequel_98_comlete_C_Ded_before_release

--JP
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 11, 2009, 09:31:50 pm
Ugh, sorry for ridding the community of all discussion it's had so far on this particular topic, but we wanted to update with the news that this is, indeed, real, without getting rid of the developer's response JP had authored.

Feel free to continue the discussion.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: MDenham on May 11, 2009, 09:35:50 pm
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,8582.msg134306.html#msg134306
Quote from: Tauwasser of romhacking.net
Seriously. If legal doesn't speak to you about C&D's, then you let the receptionist take a message that you're ignoring the C&D because it was obviously a hoax and post so on your website. It's not your fault they don't get their act together and under no law are you punishable if you ignore an email after you have tried to verify. If they suck so badly, they deserve this.
Also, make sure you get a detailed account of the numbers you called on your next phone bill and how much minutes were spent talking and off you go. Seriously, who's going to C&D you who doesn't even have a decent email setup... Big international companies these days...jeez

This is quite possibly the worst legal advice I have ever seen.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: mav on May 11, 2009, 10:28:15 pm
We need some kind of legal expert to give us some guidance on the situation. People left and right are toting nonsensical claims that really don't help. I mean, what can Agent12 do? Can he give them a deadline of some sort (wait, why would he)...This all seems so helpless now. Although getting to talk to the PR people is great, so let's see what happens. I was expecting him to be shot straight to the legal dept.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 11, 2009, 10:30:31 pm
We need some kind of legal expert to give us some guidance on the situation. People left and right are toting nonsensical claims that really don't help. I mean, what can Agent12 do? Can he give them a deadline of some sort (wait, why would he)...This all seems so helpless now. Although getting to talk to the PR people is great, so let's see what happens. I was expecting him to be shot straight to the legal dept.

wish we had one...
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 11, 2009, 10:57:47 pm
I think it's important for people to see this interview with the guys behind Chrono Trigger, Resurrection: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Stories/28

Essentially, they tried to compromise and couldn't even get a response.  I don't think we should throw in the towel or grow weary, I just think we all need to make sure we know where history stands.  We may choose to defy it and win, however, we may also choose to defy it and lose.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 11, 2009, 11:27:05 pm
We need some kind of legal expert to give us some guidance on the situation. People left and right are toting nonsensical claims that really don't help. I mean, what can Agent12 do? Can he give them a deadline of some sort (wait, why would he)...This all seems so helpless now. Although getting to talk to the PR people is great, so let's see what happens. I was expecting him to be shot straight to the legal dept.
There is a lot of help out there, several law firms meet with people here for free. If Z needs help he can get it, I trust his judgment in this case.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: JungleFreak on May 12, 2009, 01:13:31 pm
I would contact the Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org (http://www.eff.org)).  This seems like something that would be up their alley.  Even if they don't take up your case, they may give you some advice on how to proceed.  They have very knowledgeable lawyers with respect to copyright law and fair use.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 12, 2009, 01:18:44 pm
We're not going to fight it, though. It'd be too much of an interruption in our personal lives.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 02:10:45 pm
None of this really makes any sense. There is already the precedent out there that it is okay to release a modded version of a 16-bit era game as long as it's in the form of a patch and that you own the actual game itself.

How can they tell you to remove a program like Temporal Flux from the site? I guess with that logic, Action Replay, Gameshark or any other program that modifies a game is illegal and should be banned.

I think that people are just falling into their trap of being scared by the C&D letter and not standing up for their rights. You guys do have rights here and they are being trampled on.

The question is: Does SE know that you did not plan on distributing this as a stand alone game? How do we know what they know?

Take a look at all of the other games out there. There are games like The Sims where there is a ton of user created content and it's legal for people to make these mods. There is no difference here.

There is no legal precedence for them to arbitrarily tell you to C&D.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 12, 2009, 02:19:27 pm
The thing is they can't afford to argue, The team knows they have some laws and precedents on there side. Regaurdless square has unmatch resources that pretty much nulls everything they've got. 
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: placidchap on May 12, 2009, 02:23:15 pm
Well there is a point though.  If you were to release a plain ol patch it would be similar to torrent files.  The actual .tor file is nothing and meaningless unless used with an appropriate program.

   (legal)       (possibly illegal)                (legal)
.tor file ---> actual file downloaded ---> via Bittorrent

   (legal?)             (possibly illegal)             (legal)
patch file ----> Chrono Trigger ROM ----> ZSNES
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Delta Dragon on May 12, 2009, 02:29:02 pm
What I don't get is why did they wait until it was 98% done?  Did they just not know about it before?
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 02:35:34 pm
The thing is they can't afford to argue, The team knows they have some laws and precedents on there side. Regaurdless square has unmatch resources that pretty much nulls everything they've got. 

What can't they afford? SE can't afford to take this to court, because they know it is baseless. They are just sending out empty threats in order to scare people and keep them in line. Also, as I said before, do they actually think that it's a stand alone release or do they know it's a patch? If it's a patch, there is nothing they can do about it.

I definitely say that it should be expressed to them what the project actually is and what it is intended for at least. If there is no response, I would say get some free legal advice from a lawyer and they might even tell you that their C&D is baseless.

The point here is that there will be no court date, there will be no fighting it on SE's part. They are just throwing out an empty threat and they have no authority to stop you from releasing a patch to a game.

Seriously, there are countless games out there for the PC and for SNES emulators where patches or modifications similar to these are released all the time and they are perfectly legal. The problem seems to be that SE thinks that these games are being made as stand alone projects and they are in turn passing out illegal copies of a rom in a modified state.

They could state that they have not authorized people who have a copy of the game to have a ROM image of the game as well like I believe a few companies have already done so. In that case, they still can't tell you to not release a patch to that ROM as the patch itself is still not illegal, only the ROM image itself would be.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 12, 2009, 02:38:31 pm
What I don't get is why did they wait until it was 98% done?  Did they just not know about it before?

They know. They've probably got snake bastards watching this forum as we speak. It's just that they don't want to bother if they think the project isn't going to be released. Until they see that there's no other way, they won't send a C&D.

As for the other thing, I don't understand how you guys can just let this go. The laidback way you're all acting, I'm starting to think you don't care much and just go about it like "It happened, now let's badmouth Squeenix a lot but not actually try do anything about it". I understand you're uneasy with releasing it, as I personally wouldn't pull out 150 bucks for it either. But it's not illegal to argue or try to defend yourselves.

Also, even the ROM image is not illegal as long as you possess the actual game.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 02:41:41 pm
Yeah, that's why I am saying that there is no way that the patch could be illegal and they have no authority to tell you to C&D. There is no reason to follow their demands and you should at the very least contact them and explain why you have the legal right to release this patch.

This whole situation and the way everyone is acting makes no sense at all. You guys are completely in the right here.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Zephira on May 12, 2009, 02:42:35 pm
What can't they afford?
Fighting this would take a whole lot of time off of real life duties, would infringe on upcoming vacations, interrupt schoolwork, career work and site maintenance, AND there is the risk of that $150,000 fine. The people involved do have lives - and jobs - outside the Compendium. It's not like they can just drop absolutely everything to fight a company that has far more resources, lawyers and experience.

And don't think they don't care. They aren't talking or fretting about it in public because that wouldn't do any good for anyone. You can only mourn and mope for so long. It's time to move on, give them some breathing room, and rebuild in other ways.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 12, 2009, 02:44:01 pm
I would love to say they have a vaild case TheGary, but two thing are biteing them is the ass right now. A) The readme file outright state that if square demands something they will do it, as well as accepting that even if it Illegal they are doing it willingly. B) the IPS file is legal but the ROM is much less so, Square can pull the "implied crime card" with out much sweat. If those two were not the case I would say fight the case whole heartedly.



I will say I agree with Dark Serge, I would at least try and talk with them. Then again maybe you are and you just haven't posted anything on it. :D
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 12, 2009, 02:46:59 pm
What can't they afford?
Fighting this would take a whole lot of time off of real life duties, would infringe on upcoming vacations, interrupt schoolwork, career work and site maintenance, AND there is the risk of that $150,000 fine. The people involved do have lives - and jobs - outside the Compendium. It's not like they can just drop absolutely everything to fight a company that has far more resources, lawyers and experience.

And don't think they don't care. They aren't talking or fretting about it in public because that wouldn't do any good for anyone. You can only mourn and mope for so long. It's time to move on, give them some breathing room, and rebuild in other ways.

Ah, but will it take more effort then creating Crimson Echoes? Cause if it doesn't, I don't see the validity in this argument. They could spare time to create CE, so why not for this? "Can't be arsed" isn't a valid answer either here.

Moping and mourning isn't gonna solve anything.

Also, forget that readme file. What are they gonna prove with that. Delete it and pretend it never existed. They've got nothing on you.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 02:50:18 pm
People seem to be scared because SE is such a large company, but the fact is that they would have a hell of a time putting this case together as well and there is no way that it would be worth it to bust 2-3 people for making a mod of a SNES game that was released 15 years ago. All together, if they won the case, they would get their fines for $150,000 plus or whatever which no one here has, so basically they would lose out and all they could possibly do is put a couple people in prison for making a mod for an obsolete game.

There is no way that they will pursue a case here as there is no benefit for them doing so. They wouldn't get a beneficial judgment and they sure as hell wouldn't get good publicity from it.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 12, 2009, 03:00:23 pm
People seem to be scared because SE is such a large company, but the fact is that they would have a hell of a time putting this case together as well and there is no way that it would be worth it to bust 2-3 people for making a mod of a SNES game that was released 15 years ago. All together, if they won the case, they would get their fines for $150,000 plus or whatever which no one here has, so basically they would lose out and all they could possibly do is put a couple people in prison for making a mod for an obsolete game.

There is no way that they will pursue a case here as there is no benefit for them doing so. They wouldn't get a beneficial judgment and they sure as hell wouldn't get good publicity from it.
If SE wins: they get the money, CE isn't released, it set a precedent that can ruin future romhacks, the CE team will be ruined.
If SE lost: They don't get the money, CE is released, ROM hacking is the same as before, CE get or losses nothing.


Either way SE will be fine or better, but the CE team will get nothing other then a warm feeling in there gut because "they did the right thing and fought". As long as there is a risk of failure and no real reward for success why do it?  I want CE, I want TF even more(really am I the only one here?) but I don't want to risk the financial future of Z, Agent12 even more.


HOWEVER!! I will say, again, they should take full advantage of out of court discussions and see what you can get from SE. It may be very little but even that helps in the long run. As far as I am aware of Out of Court Talks are costing you anything other them time(which is important I know).
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: placidchap on May 12, 2009, 03:05:41 pm
Either way SE will be fine or better, but the CE team will get nothing other then a warm feeling in there gut because "they did the right thing and fought". As long as there is a risk of failure and no real reward for success why do it? 

There is not enough "Fighting for what is right" in these times.  It only seems to be for "real rewards" as you put it, aka financial gain.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Talah Rama on May 12, 2009, 03:57:07 pm
If there's still a copy floating around somewhere that hasn't been destroyed, hold on to it.  Finish it.  They can't do anything if it's for personal use.

Maybe in the future, they'll be reasonable.  Or forget.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Agent 12 on May 12, 2009, 03:59:43 pm
KebreI

TF is fine, we just can't put  tutorials on how to "circumvent copyright protection" or whatever on the website.  I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.

--JP
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Romana on May 12, 2009, 04:58:01 pm
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.

Which is why it's possible they're thinking it's some sort of hack on the DS version (thus there's a big reason they'd feel threatened by this), considering it does have copyright protection and the exact same release name.

I'm not getting into stupid suspicion theories or anything again, just felt it had to be addressed.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Agent 12 on May 12, 2009, 05:12:06 pm
Well they definitely know that the demo was released several years ago (before DS was even announced).

But.....well anything is possible I guess.  I'm pretty sure they don't care about what the medium even is though, they are protecting the IP, the characters/places etc.

--JP
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Ramsus on May 12, 2009, 05:12:18 pm
The thing is they can't afford to argue, The team knows they have some laws and precedents on there side. Regaurdless square has unmatch resources that pretty much nulls everything they've got. 

What can't they afford? SE can't afford to take this to court, because they know it is baseless. They are just sending out empty threats in order to scare people and keep them in line. Also, as I said before, do they actually think that it's a stand alone release or do they know it's a patch? If it's a patch, there is nothing they can do about it.

I definitely say that it should be expressed to them what the project actually is and what it is intended for at least. If there is no response, I would say get some free legal advice from a lawyer and they might even tell you that their C&D is baseless.

The point here is that there will be no court date, there will be no fighting it on SE's part. They are just throwing out an empty threat and they have no authority to stop you from releasing a patch to a game.

Seriously, there are countless games out there for the PC and for SNES emulators where patches or modifications similar to these are released all the time and they are perfectly legal. The problem seems to be that SE thinks that these games are being made as stand alone projects and they are in turn passing out illegal copies of a rom in a modified state.

They could state that they have not authorized people who have a copy of the game to have a ROM image of the game as well like I believe a few companies have already done so. In that case, they still can't tell you to not release a patch to that ROM as the patch itself is still not illegal, only the ROM image itself would be.

Not everyone can afford a few years of litigation and court battles -- not because it costs money, but because it costs time. Imagine they lose the first case and have to appeal? Or they win and Square Enix appeals? Then it goes to a higher court and so on. Even if we win, Square Enix could drag this battle on for years, ruining both Z and Agent 12's chances at living a normal life by setting them back several years in employment and job advancement.

Seriously, what do you tell your next employer when you have to explain a sudden 7-year gap in your employment history? What do you tell the girl you were going to move in with and start a new life with? Hell, just what do you tell your current employer? That you were fighting for the essential human right to modify video games and save the Internet?

Also, what makes you think they can't start a dialog with Square Enix without involving the court? Of course they can -- everyone likes to settle things before having to make everything public and pay court costs. Hell, out of court we'd probably be able to get a somewhat favorable outcome with clearly defined stipulations much more quickly than if we spent years in court fighting tooth and nail over everything.

Besides, this is a highly dynamic, complex situation that's changing daily. Who knows what's happened since this news post was made?

If you really want to help, quit playing wannabe lawyer and find a real, experienced Intellectual Property lawyer who would care about this issue and could give Agent 12 and Z more helpful advice on how to take a stronger position without incriminating themselves.

Or just go spread the news, but quit giving the same legal advice we get from 12 year olds and middle age guys still living in their mom's basement.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 12, 2009, 05:20:23 pm
Oh I thought these things would go like in Phoenix Wright, and you just appear in court and you get a not guilty verdict  :?

anyway it's a pretty good idea, i mean a game where in zeality and the team go out on an adventure to battle evil game companies and save the internet
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Lord J Esq on May 12, 2009, 05:23:45 pm
Oh I thought these things would go like in Phoenix Wright, and you just appear in court and you get a not guilty verdict  :?

anyway it's a pretty good idea, i mean a game where in zeality and the team go out on an adventure to battle evil game companies and save the internet

I wouldn't want to play a game with ZeaLitY as the main character. His brand of enthusiasm works well for boss battles, but I just don't want to have to go through a Springtime of Youth speech every time we encounter a spiky lemur or a poisonous flower. Plus, the special effects for his attacks would bankrupt us. =(
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 05:41:41 pm
So I saw this game on the news today....

I viewed two videos on Youtube- they were so beautiful that it nearly brought tears to my eyes.  At long last, a -real- sequel was being made to Chrono Trigger. (not "Chrono Cross" which was terrible)

However, old SE decides to march in and threaten you guys at the last second.

Five years of your life down the drain.... and you're just going to give up like that?  They waited that long just to cut you off at the very last second?  Didn't the people of Zeal always reach for the sky?  Are you that prepared to sacrifice all your dreams and hard work and allow nothing to come of it in the name of "respecting" a company which has no respect for it's fans?

Would SE really come after you?  Hmm... if they did, guess what?  THE WHOLE GAMING COMMUNITY WOULD SUPPORT YOU!  Both in America AND in Japan!  SE would be forced to back off!

Fan fictions are accepted and this is no different from a fan fiction!  It is wrong of them to threaten you!

And if they did fine you- well, you know what?  I'd be willing to send you guys some money to cover any fines!  350 bucks, guaranteed!  If you guys put up a collection for it others gladly help you too!  I believe many other fans would, I sure as hell would!

SE is being evil here.  Nintendo does not crush Mario mods and threaten their makers mercilessly and yet, SE has that vicious, cruel, corporate-mindset.

Unlike the souless RIAA, SE actually would have to worry about fan reactions- they would not win in such a fight.  Even if they "won", countless fans would have your back and do everything they can to support you!  You're thinking of "protecting" your regular life but this game is such a huge part of your life!  Are you willing to simply sacrifice that part of yourselves forever?

Please- before you surrender all your dreams- consider the hard work and beautiful product you made!  I hope one day you change your mind and should SE ever come after you then know that I and many countless other CT fans yearning for a true sequel will do all we can to support you in every way possible!
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 05:43:49 pm
Oh, one more thing- do not forget how SE shoved the middle finger to all Final Fantasy fans when they refused to release FX 10-3 to any countries except Japan.  Fuck SE for how they treat us fans!  This game poses no threat to their fucking profits!  Rather, it would renew interest in CT once again!
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 12, 2009, 05:45:50 pm
If you read the first post you'd realize this was never "5 years of their live", so why give up part of it now. On a lighter note TF being left alone means there is still a shining beacon of hope!
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 12, 2009, 05:49:43 pm
Oh I thought these things would go like in Phoenix Wright, and you just appear in court and you get a not guilty verdict  :?

anyway it's a pretty good idea, i mean a game where in zeality and the team go out on an adventure to battle evil game companies and save the internet

I wouldn't want to play a game with ZeaLitY as the main character. His brand of enthusiasm works well for boss battles, but I just don't want to have to go through a Springtime of Youth speech every time we encounter a spiky lemur or a poisonous flower. Plus, the special effects for his attacks would bankrupt us. =(

Heh, classic.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 05:51:14 pm
This game will not simply disappear like an a person considered insignificant who is murdered in an alleyway.  Someday, it will rise again like a Phoenix from the ashes- it is far too rash of a decision for people who have copies to simply trash all this hard work and love and dedication.  And one day this game will be put up again, others who share that love will finish it and the world will be able to enjoy this piece of art.  Mark my words, SE will NOT crush the dreams of fans no matter how mercilessly hard they try!

And to those who fear SE, what matters most- your honor and integrity and doing the right thing?  Or simply sulking away in fear of a corporate behemoth while mumbling about having "respect" for that behemoth?

Fuck SE, if I had a copy of this game I would DEFINITELY release it to the world!  They can go kiss my ass and if they wanted to sue me well, I don't give a fuck!  Hell, I'd probably just find some anonymous way to release the game so that the assholes at SE would be clueless about it- and it wouldn't be anyone's fault but my own and SE couldn't do jackshit about it no matter how much money they spend to have lawyers speak fucking corporate lawyer bullshit talk to try and scare and intimidate people here.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: teaflower on May 12, 2009, 05:55:59 pm
Crimson Echoes isn't dead yet, if you ask me. Somewhere, somehow, someone has a copy of it. We just can't release right now. We all need to calm down and think this through. I'd call SE myself and ask 'HEY YOU GUYS WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU FREE PUBLICITY AND ALL THAT CRAP WHY DON'T YOU LET IT GO THROUGH BITCHES', but my sis just came in and took my phone. I'll probably never see it again...

Also, consider editing your posts instead of double posting, Glenn27. It's irritating.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 12, 2009, 05:57:39 pm
the next new guy who registers here and says chrono cross sucks im gonna smack across the face

several times
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 05:58:32 pm
Ah, my apologies for that.  I don't usually double-post but I was just so angry I wanted to let my thoughts out immediately.  In future posts I will not double-post anymore.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: lazerflesh on May 12, 2009, 06:06:12 pm
What if a person outside US law that helped with the project were to take the fall and release it. If it's coming from a source you 'couldn't control' than there really isn't to much that they can do- I hope.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: justin3009 on May 12, 2009, 06:07:56 pm
But it'd still go back to the main source, Zeality.  They practically know where he lives which is incredibly creepy and stalkerish...
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 12, 2009, 06:24:08 pm
the next new guy who registers here and says chrono cross sucks im gonna smack across the face

several times

props, like, total props, dark me.

What if a person outside US law that helped with the project were to take the fall and release it. If it's coming from a source you 'couldn't control' than there really isn't to much that they can do- I hope.

The fact we are talking about it on this forum would be incriminating in itself if it was released anonymously, because of the "reasonable suspicion" that ZeaLitY or agent 22 could have seen this and decided to agree to doing it.  Even worse is that because of talk like this, if someone leaks the game under their own convictions, ZeaLitY and agent22 could still get in trouble.

All of these ideas of moving it to a russian server, releasing it anonymously, holding off and doing it in a year, or saying "Fuck You" to Square Enix and continuing on, have been brought up already.  Personally because of the lack of funding and legal backup that ZeaLitY, agent22, and the Compendium have, these ideas seem neither wise nor mature ways to handle the current situation.

Is Square being a bit unruly about this?  Yes, yes they are, in my opinion, but countering with one of the above ideas would just be even more foolish.  Right now, there's just about nothing you can really do to help unless, like Ramsus mused, you had a lawyer experienced in this kind of situation.  ZeaLitY and agent22 are doing they best they possibly can to try and resolve this.  The best we can do right now is to show them love and support.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 06:36:48 pm
There's one more thing I want to say.  To the creators of this game.... if this game is completely destroyed and many decades in the future your old selves were to acquire their own Epoch and visit their old selves and be asked, "what is your greatest regret in life?"  They would not say, "wasting our time on that game," they would say- "Our greatest regret is that we never were able to realize our Dream.  We allowed it to be crushed by bullies- if there was anything we could change, it would be the realization of our Dream and to be able to show courage in the face to threats and evil."


Should one of the beta-testers release this on their own, it would not be the fault of the creators.  Also, Square-Enix can't do too much of a dick-move without people turning against them.  They have to more receptive to fan responses than people against the RIAA.  They're acting as threatening and stalkerish as humanly possible to engage in fear and intimidation tactics to try to use terror tactics against the creators to incite as much fear in them as possible but it's not like they're ever going to hire the Yakuza to kill anyone Kill-Bill-style.

The creators have complied with SE.  Should a rogue beta-tester somehow release this game anonymously- oh well SE!  T'would not be the fault of the creators and there would be nothing SE could do to the creators, no matter how much bullshit their corporate whore lawyers are spewing at the mouth to try to scare and cow others into submission.

Remember, lawyers lie A LOT and they LOVE to imply shit that's not true!  Anyone ever read, "Game Over, press start to continue?"  It's about Nintendo's history.

A film study tried to trick Nintendo into thinking the studio owned the rights to Donkey Kong- in the end though they didn't and their lawyers were lying and trying to threaten and scare them!  Nintendo almost gave in!  Don't believe the hype from the Man and his servants, they tell you what they want you to believe!
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: V_Translanka on May 12, 2009, 06:40:17 pm
Someone should make a CE C&D FAQ so we can just point a hyperlink at it and say, "YOU ARE WRONG!" (and/or along with ZeaLitY's "NO U!" pig meme thingy)...
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 12, 2009, 06:42:48 pm
You're overestimating the fanbase. Aside from the people who like Chrono Trigger or Cross, nobody cares about this, as evidenced by several replies on this news on other websites. Besides, part of even those people who do like Trigger or Cross, are not willing to spend too much effort trying to get to Square Enix. So what do we have, in the end? A handfull of Chrono Trigger and Cross nerds who are nagging at Square Enix and trying to boycot them. The only thing Square Enix will do in reply is laugh at us and crap in our faces.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Chrono'99 on May 12, 2009, 06:57:52 pm
(not "Chrono Cross" which was terrible)

Well, you wouldn't have liked playing CE then.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 07:01:55 pm
Yes, I would have enjoyed it very much- especially having seen the videos of this game on Youtube.  The characters, new style, etc., CC just never really appealed to me. 

Let's not turn this into a flame-war about CC though and complaining about people who don't like it, this is all about the great game CE.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: LSK on May 12, 2009, 07:03:47 pm
There's a really nice and viable solution that won't take a lot of work and won't incur SE's wrath.

Keep the game while changing the names and the sprites of the lead characters. Make it, essentially, original. Then the hard work doesn't go to waste and the public gets to at least play it. It's more important that the author's five years don't go to waste than the game's being a Chrono Trigger game - any game is better than none.

Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Xshu on May 12, 2009, 07:09:38 pm
That would only work if the game wasn't already a ROM hack.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: mav on May 12, 2009, 07:52:56 pm
Right, this was a ROM hack, which means changing the characters, names, etc. would still mean you're using the CT engine, which is where much of the problem comes from. Likewise if they started from scratch, but kept the plot, changed the names and everything, it would still take years to complete. It's a nice suggestion, and it's been suggested tens of times, but it's unrealistic.

And the entire "someone should release it, they can't do shit" is a terrible idea. Zeality and everyone already told SE that they deleted all copies. If a copy appears, it'll go back to them, regardless of who did it. Look, being annoyed by SE's actions is one thing, but consider the fact that the people who made CE are real people, with real lives, and this could potentially be a real and huge problem. Leave the legal advice to people who really know what they're talking about, it's nice that you care, but let Zeality and them get real advice from real people.

Oh and we don't need to cuss out or boycott SE, cause this C&D is really something from a legal department, I doubt most of the employees at Square know about it or give a care. SE's recent actions don't reflect the company entirely...Passion is one thing, but nonsensical claims and hate rants really have no purpose.


Just let the people really dealing with this situation tell us what's happening and keep us updated, cause ultimately that's all that matters.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 12, 2009, 07:53:50 pm
Just a little side note...

I called Square Enix this afternoon at my lunch break.  It's legit.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Dialga_Palkia on May 12, 2009, 09:45:38 pm

But it'd still go back to the main source, Zeality.  They practically know where he lives which is incredibly creepy and stalkerish...

holy................... :shock: man even if you're on your home computer they can track you down?!

But then the future refused to change.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 10:08:26 pm
"Zeality and everyone already told SE that they deleted all copies. If a copy appears, it'll go back to them, regardless of who did it."

Yes, they deleted all personal copies.  That does not mean that someone who was given a copy necessarily complied with their instructions.  In which case.... it's not their fault if it gets released and SE can't really do anything.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 12, 2009, 10:15:09 pm
Quote
Yes, they deleted all personal copies.  That does not mean that someone who was given a copy necessarily complied with their instructions.  In which case.... it's not their fault if it gets released and SE can't really do anything.

That's how Square Enix is planning to treat it, though. It's wickedly ingenious when you think about it, basically saying that "if you leak the game, even if we can't get you, we'll get the people who worked so hard to make the game, so think about that". It forces anyone outside the circle of accountability who's planning to leak it to make a sadistic choice, so to speak.

"This is why only fools are heroes — because you never know when Square Enix will come along with a sadistic choice.  Let die the game you love... or suffer the little creators. Make your choice, game leaker, and see how a hero is rewarded."
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: MDenham on May 12, 2009, 10:15:40 pm
"Zeality and everyone already told SE that they deleted all copies. If a copy appears, it'll go back to them, regardless of who did it."

Yes, they deleted all personal copies.  That does not mean that someone who was given a copy necessarily complied with their instructions.  In which case.... it's not their fault if it gets released and SE can't really do anything.
Actually, they're still liable for that (though the extent would be "give us the list of people other than the development team who had access to it" to prepare the rabid attack lawyers weasels lawyers wolverines lawyers for suing the pants off of whoever did it).
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: mav on May 12, 2009, 10:16:51 pm
Not to get redundant, but just cause it's not their fault doesn't mean that they won't be held responsible. Look, do you really think SE is gonna be understanding at this point? "Oh, one of your beta testers released it? Oh, well that's fine, it's not your fault." No, they'll be hard about it: "Look, you told us you got rid of all copies and that you instructed everyone else to do so. Since you couldn't stop it, we'll go ahead and hold you responsible."
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 10:28:51 pm
So that's it?  Everybody just wants to submit to letting Square-Enix screw over the fans without fighting for what's right?  I don't buy that SE would still be able to go after them if someone else released it rogue.

SE's just making threats, the same way that that movie studio made fake threats to Nintendo to try and force them to hand over the gaming license to Donkey Kong.  And this game isn't going to have any negative effect on SE's already massive profits.

I think surrendering is the last thing fans should be considering and it's shame that so many want to do just that.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 12, 2009, 10:31:57 pm
It's like playing Russian Roulette, which is pretty fun to watch but not much fun if you're the one playing. Even if there's only a 5% chance of Square suing and ruining the creators' lives, they're viewing that as a chance they don't want to take.

I'm so torn on this it's not funny, but it's ultimately their decision. We all wish they would fight on, but I won't blame them if they don't.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: ZealKnight on May 12, 2009, 10:38:35 pm
Even if it isn't profit this isn't their original creation. It does belong to SE they have the right. Do I like what they did, no. But they have the right, just like how the kid who sits next to me in math has the right to not let me use his work for one question on the homework. I wanted to play CE badly but frankly if I had made a series like Chrono Trigger I would not want fans to tamper with my stories or my characters. Although I would at least check out the game and decide whether or not to get rid of it.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 12, 2009, 10:40:02 pm
Having the right doesn't make it right. The police in Montgomery, Alabama had the right to make Rosa Parks get up from her seat in 1955, and I don't see anyone arguing that that was right.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 10:40:39 pm
Even if they permanently destroy their creation and never allow it to see the light of day to anyone for all time, I don't think there's any way the creators will ever be happy about this, having their Dream taken away.  They should just find a way to get the game out and say to hell with the consequences.  Yes, they may get in trouble but they won't have to sacrifice their Dream and they won't have to live with any regrets about what could have been.
  
Plus, like I said, SE would have to be careful how they pursued it to avoid attracting too much controversy from the gaming community.


http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103233/

(17 minutes in)
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 10:46:52 pm
Most people here probably don't like country music, but this basically says it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hja0XND8Ms

You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 12, 2009, 10:53:01 pm
You could just as easily say it with this country song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...

Thing is, I wish they'd hold because I think Square has pocket sixes and we've got pocket jacks.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: mav on May 12, 2009, 10:58:13 pm
Look we can argue all day about whether Square would go after these people if it was released, and even if the chance is low that doesn't mean they wont. These are people's lives we're talking about. Sure they put years of effort into this game, but they can't put their lives on hold for this, it's just not worth it. Sure people should stand up to things that aren't right, but we're not sitting on a bus, we're not making a social movement, we're not doing anything, we're just assuming that the creators of this game are willing to put their livelihood on the line for this hack.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 11:07:58 pm
You guys should look up the laws of derivative work.

"In Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.,[9] the appellate court held that it was a fair use for owners of copies of video games, such as Super Mario Bros., to use Galoob's product the Game Genie to customize the difficulty or other characteristics of the game by granting a character more strength, speed, or endurance. Nintendo strongly opposed Galoob's product, allegedly because it interfered with the maintenance of the "Nintendo Culture," which Nintendo claimed was important to its marketing program.[10] The court held, among other things, that the fair use defense shielded Galoob's conduct. The court said that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed. Consumers may use ... a Game Genie to enhance a Nintendo Game cartridge’s audiovisual display in such a way as to make the experience more enjoyable.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

There's a similar situation to what is going on here. The thing about arguing that you shouldn't risk going to court and wasting your time is dumb in my opinion. Just because it's a hassle to stand up for what is right doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. That's why they send out these letters because they know that they can scare someone with a threat of a large fine or with a long drawn out court case. There aren't too many people left in this world that will stand up for what they believe in no matter the consequences.

Oh, and this just wouldn't be a victory for one little game hack. Standing up here and fighting back against a big company such as SE and winning would be a big victory for all modders and developers out there. I myself am a small time programmer and I just think that laying down here not only hurts the fans on this board, but every other modder/programmer/developer out there.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 12, 2009, 11:12:00 pm
Quote
...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.

And that, in the game modder's mind, is exactly the point. Thank you TheGary.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 12, 2009, 11:13:49 pm
Even if they win, they'd have to severely disrupt their lives in order to fight it.

Which pretty much sucks, because it biases the system HEAVILY toward the big guy. Square has a legion of lawyers whose very job it is to go to court and argue all day, while for these guys to fight it they'd have to devote their entire livelihood and well being to it and that sucks.

I agree with everyone suggesting that we get the EFF involved. If Zeality and the others can get an EFF lawyer to do everything for them so that they can go on with their lives while the EFF fights for this, that would be awesome.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 12, 2009, 11:15:31 pm
Quote
...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.

And that, in the game modder's mind, is exactly the point.

That's why I don't think you guys should lay down here. Ultimately, it's up to the creators. You could just as easily not release it because you don't feel like finishing it. The authors have no obligation to release this game with or without a C&D. I just want to make sure that they at least know that they are basically within their rights to release this game.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 12, 2009, 11:19:39 pm
Maybe you could try contacting the ACLU for some help.

http://www.aclu.com/
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 12, 2009, 11:20:22 pm
This sort of thing isn't really the ACLU's bag.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 12, 2009, 11:31:44 pm
You could just as easily say it with this country song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...

Thing is, I wish they'd hold because I think Square has pocket sixes and we've got pocket jacks.
Sorry but this just made me laugh, good call. :lol:
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: mav on May 12, 2009, 11:36:59 pm
You guys should look up the laws of derivative work...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.
...
Heh, I posted these same exact things earlier (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7396.msg160109/topicseen.html#msg160109), nice to see we share the same thoughts. And you are correct, at least about it being up to the creators of the game. Again though, the thing is that the concept of derivative works and the precedent set in the Galoob Toys case will only help if Square lets the CE team offer up their side of the argument or if this goes to court. The former is the likelier of the two, but I'm not sure whether that's even happening...
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 13, 2009, 12:37:32 am
"Evil wins when good men do nothing."



And to Falcon....

"Glenn27 can you shut up? Honestly?

Do you even know how the real world works? You're spouting off about Dreams and Zeal and junk while people who were creating something for all of us are contemplating the idea of getting their lives ruined. FOR A VIDEO GAME! You haven't put in any actual effort to help with the hack, and the lawsuit wouldn't effect you in anyway. Yet you selfishly ponder the idea of someone releasing it on their own without the consent of the creators of the project. Why? Because you want to play it, you've been going to their website everyday, and you've been checking the compendium forums for an update, so you can effortlessly click with your grubby little fingers and reap the rewards.

To say that it would be some kind of action against Square Enix is complete and utter bull. You and everyone else here whining and begging to anyone on the team who will listen to release it anyway is just out for themselves. So THEY don't feel like they've wasted their time watching and waiting, rather than actually HELPING. Maybe if all the people coming out of the wood work now too support them helped them in the beginning and actually went out and learned how to sprite or make maps it would've been released already. But you didn't, you just waited."

First off, I haven't been coming here every single day- I just found out about this project. (and on a physical note my fingers are neither little nor grubby)  So I've hardly "waited."


"This isn't a movie where good triumphs over evil, because there is no evil here. It's two sides of grey protecting themselves. Chrono Trigger is owned by SE, if ANY kind of mod or hack is released it is a FAVOR of them onto us. Is there anyone thanking the legal and production staff at Square when a fan work gets successfully released? No. Like a previous poster said, if I had put as much time as they did into the original Chrono Trigger I wouldn't want anyone tampering with it either.

  Grow up, get over it. It's a game, a video game, if THAT is the thing you are most passionate about, out of everything else that could be in your life, you need to seriously sit down and sort your life out. To the entire Crimson Echoes team, and all other dev teams that have had projects halted because of current events know that 100% of the logical thinking people who live in the real world support your decisions completely and whole heartedly."

You've never understood having your own personal dreams, do you?  I have had my own- an important one which I have lost and new ones which I pursue to accomplish.  The idea of someone crushing another person's dream sickens me, and I'd hate to have someone let their dream be taken from them.

This is much MORE than just for my own personal enjoyment.  This is about their dreams and the rights of fans to create mods.  Even if the developers think sacrificing their dreams is the best thing to do, in the end it won't be and they will regret it for the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Agent 12 on May 13, 2009, 12:52:53 am
Oh geez.......

OK guys I thought I did a decent job of answering this in my post but I guess not. 

Doing NOTHING?  Are you serious???

In less than a week me and Zeality have managed not only to save our own asses but also to save the compendium which has been collecting everything that is everything about the chronoverse for way longer than CE has been around.  We've taken a game that was known by a handful of people and turned it into a symbol of the little guy against a corporation that is known by thousands of people on some of the most popular social media websites that I know of as well as tons of smaller websites.  You think that there isn't someone at Square's headquarters right now looking at the damage we have done and wondering what to do???  Not to mention some stuff that is going on behind the scenes that we certainly aren't going to talk about on a public forum.

I ask this how many of the people complaining about how we have handled this situation have called the number on the C & D letter and complained?  Please stop complaining about something where you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.  I'm sorry that I'm not willing to fight a huge multi million dollar corporation for a rom hack.  We are handling this the best way we know how without sacrificing anyone.

--JP
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: FalconHit on May 13, 2009, 01:05:26 am
Glenn27 can you shut up? Honestly?

  Do you even know how the real world works? You're spouting off about Dreams and Zeal and junk while people who were creating something for all of us are contemplating the idea of getting their lives ruined. FOR A VIDEO GAME! You haven't put in any actual effort to help with the hack, and the lawsuit wouldn't effect you in anyway. Yet you selfishly ponder the idea of someone releasing it on their own without the consent of the creators of the project. Why? Because you want to play it, you've been going to their website everyday, and you've been checking the compendium forums for an update, so you can effortlessly click with your grubby little fingers and reap the rewards. To say that it would be some kind of action against Square Enix is complete and utter bull. You and everyone else here whining and begging to anyone on the team who will listen to release it anyway is just out for themselves. So THEY don't feel like they've wasted their time watching and waiting, rather than actually HELPING. Maybe if all the people coming out of the wood work now too support them helped them in the beginning and actually went out and learned how to sprite or make maps it would've been released already. But you didn't, you just waited.  This isn't a movie where good triumphs over evil, because there is no evil here. It's two sides of grey protecting themselves. Chrono Trigger is owned by SE, if ANY kind of mod or hack is released it is a FAVOR of them onto us. Is there anyone thanking the legal and production staff at Square when a fan work gets successfully released? No. Like a previous poster said, if I had put as much time as they did into the original Chrono Trigger I wouldn't want anyone tampering with it either.

  Grow up, get over it. It's a game, a video game, if THAT is the thing you are most passionate about, out of everything else that could be in your life, you need to seriously sit down and sort your life out. To the entire Crimson Echoes team, and all other dev teams that have had projects halted because of current events know that 100% of the logical thinking people who live in the real world support your decisions completely and whole heartedly.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 13, 2009, 01:23:05 am
Agent, do you have like a form letter/post or something that maybe we could copy and post in the different communities that the rest of us are a part of?
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 13, 2009, 01:27:21 am
"In less than a week me and Zeality have managed not only to save our own asses but also to save the compendium which has been collecting everything that is everything about the chronoverse for way longer than CE has been around."

So that's it?  You'll sacrifice your hard work and your dreams just for self-preservation?  You're not going to take a stand for what's right?  Can you really let your Dreams go that easily just like that?  Has SE's corporate, bullshit, overly threatening manner gotten to you that bad?  If that is your mentality then your mentality is like that of a kid in high school who gets bullied all the time but is afraid to stand up for himself out of fear of being hurt, or like that of a slave who fears the master's whip should he attempt rebellion.  Nat Turner may have died but by golly, he did the right damn thing- and if you were in his position would you follow his path or accept slavery?


You know that SE's trying to put the squeeze on you guys as much as possible to scare you right?  And the worst-case scenario isn't going to come true- BECAUSE IF IT DID IT WOULD BRING GREAT CONTROVERSY TO SE's REP IN THE GAMING COMMUNITY.  This alone so far only registers a blip if all you do is surrender.

Don't be so afraid of them, despite their asshole lawyers speaking with forked-tongues as much as possible to scare you, they're not as omnipotent as they make pretensions of being



"We've taken a game that was known by a handful of people and turned it into a symbol of the little guy against a corporation that is known by thousands of people on some of the most popular social media websites that I know of as well as tons of smaller websites." 

If you guys fight for what's right, then it's truly a symbol.  But if you cave in then it stops being a symbol.  It'd be like if Rosa Parks complied with the officers who forced her to give up her bus seat then told herself, "well, at least what I did will be a symbol," for the rest of her life.

If you guys give up now then it won't be a symbol for anything except for the little guy once again bowing down to some massive, soulless corporation.



"You think that there isn't someone at Square's headquarters right now looking at the damage we have done and wondering what to do???"

You think Square cares about this?  Of course not, so long as 50 million people buy the next Final Fantasy they could give two farts less.  They likely view you as little more than an annoying insect to be crushed, because they don't want fans to mod their work if more than a few thousand will enjoy it.  So long as you guys submit and deny your work to create fan-mods, they could care less.  The more you submit the less of interest you are to them.

They're probably laughing their asses off or are pleased with the level of subservience their hateful, dishonest threats have engineered.

If you really wanted to make SE squirm and feel the heat then you (or someone else) would have to give this mod the right to exist which legally (Game Genie) IT POSSESSES DESPITE WHAT BULLSHIT SE LAWYERS ARE DRILLING INTO YOUR HEADS.


"I ask this how many of the people complaining about how we have handled this situation have called the number on the C & D letter and complained?" 

Now that you have mentioned this, I will call them- that is a great idea, thank you.  I had not thought of that before but now that you mentioned it I gladly will do so.  You should do a news post on the front of the site asking everyone to call them if you desire our support in this manner, if you so wish to.  Ask us to do anything and we'll happily support you.


"Please stop complaining about something where you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.  I'm sorry that I'm not willing to fight a huge multi million dollar corporation for a rom hack.  We are handling this the best way we know how without sacrificing anyone."

Mark my words- years later, when you've turned your back on all your work, which has been reduced to ashes while SE goes back to releasing certain games (FX 10-3) only in Japan and acting like dicks all-around, you're not going to be happy about this.

You can try to trick yourself into talking about how your 5 years of destroyed work was briefly a "symbol" on some gaming sites and praise yourselves for avoiding the wrath of Kahn/SE and keeping a site safe (whose information could all easily be copied and transferred elsewhere), but deep down inside you'll never be able to forgive yourselves if you allow SE to steal so much of your lives and your dreams and yourselves away from you.

What did Chrono and his friends do when they saw the horrible future?  Did they simply accept it as too impossible a task to try and change?  No, the fought to change it- and they accomplished their goals.  It was tough, it was dangerous but by golly, they did it.

The above WILL be your dark future someday, but is that the future you really want?  The choice is yours if you wish to follow in the path of Chrono and his friends to change it.  Fight the future!  Change it!  Do not simply accept it because that is the easiest path, you can change it and you should!
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: cool_boy_mew on May 13, 2009, 01:29:30 am
What companies fail to understand is that the fans keep the game/series alive through stuff like this. Not only it would have been a good way to keep the fans hyped about the series, now they just angered the fans and made the company looks bad. It's stupid. They alread did themselves a good amount of damage with al lthe bad press about it when they could have just shut up and let it go, they would have lost nothing and gained a more solid fanbase.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: ravenl0rd on May 13, 2009, 01:32:03 am
That's right, stick it to the man!

Seriously, I wouldn't go to court with these guys.  A compromise is the only hope here.  From what I understand, Glenn27,  they are trying to open up lines of communication.  Chill out a little bit.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: RedNeckJiuJitsu on May 13, 2009, 01:33:38 am
Okay. I'm gonna try to give a full analysis of this situation here, as I see it. I'm not a lawyer, but I just finished up a class on Intellectual Property, the vast majority of which was spent on copyright. I could try to email the professor and see if she'd give me her opinion on it, but I have a feeling it would be about the same as I come up with as I work my way through it here. (Also, I started on this about 4:00 in the afternoon, Central Time in the US, and came back to it about 10:30, and I didn't refresh the page. So, if anyone has said any of what I say in here, I apologize).


Under US law, Section 106 of the Copyright code gives 6 exclusive rights to the creators/owners of IP.

Quote from: www.copyright.gov
§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works38

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

CE would fall under the area of "derivative works", since it would be a "mid-quel". Now, obviously, there's a lot of various fan fictions for different series, whether video games, TV, movies, books, etc. Generally, even though these works are derivatives of the originals, although they make not necessarily be embraced by the copyright owner, they're at least tolerated, as the copyright owners 1) don't want to alienate their fans, and 2) don't think that it'll hurt the market for their own derivative works.

Looking at it from SE's perspective, while they allow other fan fiction, there's 2 main issues here. They probably feel that the release of the CE patch would encourage people to illegally download a CT rom, and that the downloading of the rom would likely discourage many fans from purchasing CTDS. Also, although CE is a patch for the SNES rom, it still makes use of and modifies their original CT game. A similar idea is that of sampling pieces of music to use in the creation of new music. Done with permission from the copyright owners, it's okay, but when done without permission, it has been the cause of many lawsuits. Sometimes the bits taken are so small that they constitute fair use, but that's pretty rare. Think of the CE situation like this: CE takes a couple little snippets of music (some from CT, some from CC) and uses it as part of the creation of a whole new song. It doesn't use much, just enough that it's recognizable. Even though this new song gives credit to the creators of the first 2 songs, it's still using those pieces without the permission of the owners.

Now, I mentioned fair use. There are limitations on the Sec 106 exclusive rights of copyright owners, but exactly what constitutes fair use will vary from case to case. Looking at what the law says,

Quote from: www.copyright.gov
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Now, fair use isn't so much an allowance as it is a defense to a claim of infringement. You may look at the 4-part analysis for fair use and think something (like CE) falls under it. SE may look at it and say "No way in hell does it fall under fair use." The only way to know for sure is if it goes to court. And even then, with appeals, you may get 3 different answers before it's settled (provided it makes it to the Supreme Court).

My personal take on whether or not CE is fair use... Well, let's see:
1) purpose and character of the use - obviously, it's non-profit, and while that doesn't make it a shoe-in, it does make it a lot easier than if the CE team were charging to download the patch, a patched ROM, or even had ads on the site (well, I'm assuming they don't. Somebody else said their no ads on the compendium, and I'm gonna take their word for it, since I have ad-block on my firefox). As we well know, CE wasn't meant to take the place of a possible future SE Chrono title, just give the fans something to keep them into the series, as well as fuel their own creative desires and see how others liked them. To me, that would help push towards fair use.
2) nature of the work - the work in this case is a patch for a rom of used in the emulation of an obsolete gaming system. There may be something in the DMCA about obsolete tech. I dunno, didn't stay on it much in class besides discussions of YouTube, digital transmissions, and such, but even without it, knowing that the Super Nintendo hasn't been available commercially since like 1998 would again get me leaning towards CE being fair use. On the other hand, the game was just re-released for the DS, which is a new system. Granted, there are some additions and changes in the new release, but it's still the same game. Kinda like how 2 people can record the same song. That being said, the patch is intended for backup copies of the old game, and not the new.
3) amount and substantiality of portion used - obviously I can't completely comment on this, since I wasn't a tester or creator, but from what I remember reading about and seeing screenshots of, this would be a weak point in the fair use defense. Even though CE is a completely new game, it uses stuff from the CT game. It obviously uses the main characters, as well as supporting characters, places, items, etc. Obviously the point of CE was to make a new game with the CT engine that tied together CT and CC. While it's a whole new storyline, the fact that it uses the CT rom and so many things from the Chronoverse would definitely lessen the chances of it being seen as fair use.
4) effect of use upon the market - the release of CTDS not so long ago might make CE seem like it would have an effect on the market, as there would be people who would illegally download the SNES CT rom rather than buy CTDS knowing they could patch it and get a second game out of it. Granted, most of those people would probably illegally download rather than buy anyways, but there's still a chance.

Obviously, I'd like to say that CE falls under fair use, and going through the analysis leads me to lean that way, but really, I dunno about how a pro would see it. There's a chance it would be and a chance it wouldn't be. Even if it wasn't, there's the chance that SE wouldn't actually file suit. Generally if the send a C&D, though, they will.


As far as other ROM hacks that are available for various games (Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc), the fact that they are out there doesn't mean that it's legal. It may be that the copyright owners either don't know or just don't view it as a threat to their business. As I first stated, the fact that CE was to come out now, when there may be people still considering buying CTDS may be what set SE off, compared to if it came out, say, 3 years ago.

Oh, and just to settle it for anyone who's wondering, making or obtaining backup copies of computer programs is legal, so long as you own and still own the original and destroy the backup if you get rid of the original. That is under this section of the Copyright Code: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#1-53


In regards to SE waiting until now to send out a C&D, as stated elsewhere, so much stuff dies on the vine that they may not have been worried about it. Or it just got caught in a drag net with the increased publicity. Who knows. However, just because they send out a C&D doesn't mean that something isn't fair use. In IP class the one day we were discussing YouTube and how many videos get deleted and what not because of all the DMCA (Digital Millennial Copyright Act) provisions when they are in fact fair use or not even in a position where it should have been a problem, but these big corporations just drag a net through and send out notices. Because many people don't know copyright law, they just cave to the C&D when, in fact, what they have isn't an infringement or is fair use.


Sorry that got so long. TL/DR version is that CE may be fair use, but the only way to find out would be to call SE's bluff, get taken to court, and see how they interpret CE in view of copyright law and the DMCA.

I hope that all makes sense and ties together well. I'd go back and proofread it more, but I just finished my first beer and since I had my last final this afternoon, I think I'm gonna have a couple more.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: ravenl0rd on May 13, 2009, 01:48:15 am
A very intelligent response for a redneck!   :shock:

Seriously, though, great post.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: joemomma on May 13, 2009, 01:49:52 am
I second that
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 13, 2009, 01:53:32 am
Basically what some of of were already saying, but more detailed and well put together. I still say you should email your professor as you said. The more opinions that people get and the more that people know about this the better.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: utunnels on May 13, 2009, 01:56:23 am
Quote
TL/DR version is that CE may be fair use, but the only way to find out would be to call SE's bluff, get taken to court, and see how they interpret CE in view of copyright law and the DMCA.
Perhaps the complicated  process is much worse than the result it might cause?
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: TheGary on May 13, 2009, 01:58:18 am
Quote
TL/DR version is that CE may be fair use, but the only way to find out would be to call SE's bluff, get taken to court, and see how they interpret CE in view of copyright law and the DMCA.
Perhaps the complicated  process is much worse than the result it might cause?

Not really as winning the case would set a precedent for hackers/modders for years to come. It would basically cement this hobby as completely legitimate. We need to look at the big picture. It's not all just about CE being released and getting to play it.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: KebreI on May 13, 2009, 02:12:44 am
Even then "the big" picture isn't that big and is costly, I would never force this responsibility on to any one.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: peepin_toms_berry on May 13, 2009, 03:11:04 am
Wow.  Just wow.  I am ashamed to call myself a geek.  Most of the people responding to this news are retarded.

Do you really think that Square spent 5 years monitoring Crimson Echoes?  Really?  Do you know anyone who has been at the same job for five years?  Let alone who would bother to calender and follow a fan project for that long?  Anyone who thinks Square held off till the end because they're evil is just a moron. 

I am appalled at the rancor and venom I've seen bandied about here and in other forums.  You think a company is evil, malicious, soulless dicks, just because they sent a cease and desist on this one fan game?  Now I really respect the creativity and dedication that went into Crimson Echoes, but come on!  99.99999% of companies protect their IP.  Sure, you could point to a few exceptions like Valve, Nintendo and Capcom--BUT THEY'RE THE EXCEPTIONS.  And I promise you they still send cease and desists too on outrageous acts of infringement.

And I hate to say, but Crimson Echoes was an outrageous act of infringement.  No way in hell it's fair use.  Red Neck, that was a decent analysis from someone who attended a class, but you're insane to think this is even debatable.  Fair use is a pipe dream.

Your best argument would be the Game Genie case, but go ahead and read it for yourself.  The reason that wasn't infringement is only because the Game Genie itself didn't have any infringing content on it.  You guys have a patch that contains a whole new game (unless my reading of the forums is totaly off).  Whole new plot, dialogue, etc.  Even going by Game Genie, you're up sh*% creek.

All of you are talking about how unprofessional the cease and desist was.  How so?  Point to a sentence that was cruel.  They set it out and threatened to sue.  They didn't sue yet.  They didn't go after all the other stuff on the Compendium.  They didn't go after al the scripts and other stuff you havelisted in the left column.  So far as I can tell, they were pretty narrowly focused.  It would've been downright inane for them to demand taking down Crimson Echoes but letting the other mods stay up.

A few people compared this cease and desist to the old one.  The new one is by the inhouse lawyers.  You guys have probably never worked int he real world, but inhouse lawyers are much more business-like than law firms.  Law firms get paid by the hour.  They use stupid legalese.  Inhouse guys go straight to the point.  I don't see anything bad about the letter, except maybe they didn't fully understand Temporal Flux, which is totally beside the point.

So why all this hatred?  And especially calling them immoral dicks?  I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules.  But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking.  Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: FalconHit on May 13, 2009, 03:53:40 am
What did Chrono and his friends do when they saw the horrible future?  Did they simply accept it as too impossible a task to try and change?  No, the fought to change it- and they accomplished their goals.  It was tough, it was dangerous but by golly, they did it.

You are clearly not someone functioning in reality. Again, comparing real life situations to a video game... pretty laughable. I think you fail to realize while it's all well and good to say "reach for your dreams", the teams "dream" right now is most likely to get out of the situation they're in... Being in a lawsuit with a major corporation, especially involving one of said companies IP's, is not good, it's the kind of thing that changes your life in a horrible way, forever. Maybe Square-Enix's dream is to have it's property not tampered with. And you keep suggesting to call a bluff? How is SE bluffing? They said we will sue you, and it will suck, bluffing would imply that they don't actually have the resources to do so. On the contrary, it would probably take up 10 minutes of their time, and not the tiniest of fractions of their resource pool.

Honestly, if I was in SE position I could see myself doing the same thing.

And to say that Square's "corporate bullying" is getting to them, but to then say;
"If that is your mentality then your mentality is like that of a kid in high school who gets bullied all the time but is afraid to stand up for himself out of fear of being hurt, or like that of a slave who fears the master's whip should he attempt rebellion."

and;
"Mark my words- years later, when you've turned your back on all your work, which has been reduced to ashes while SE goes back to releasing certain games (FX 10-3) only in Japan and acting like dicks all-around, you're not going to be happy about this. You can try to trick yourself into talking about how your 5 years of destroyed work was briefly a "symbol" on some gaming sites and praise yourselves for avoiding the wrath of Kahn/SE and keeping a site safe (whose information could all easily be copied and transferred elsewhere), but deep down inside you'll never be able to forgive yourselves if you allow SE to steal so much of your lives and your dreams and yourselves away from you."

Is infuriating. You yourself are trying to push someone into doing something they don't want to do. You're trying to come off as some idealist shining light in the darkness of corporate whatever, but you're just being a straight up classic hypocrite jerk.

The CE team has gone through enough recently, they certainly don't need to put up with your insults.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 13, 2009, 04:42:54 am
Quote
So why all this hatred?  And especially calling them immoral dicks?  I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules.  But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking.  Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.

Because we wanted to play this game. We wanted to play it bad and we're pissed off. I can bash Square if I want to. I won't do it here, because I know this place is trying to keep a good image, but you can bet I'm going to vent everywhere else. I don't care if Square is in the right legally. We need to change the laws, and if that means content creators take their balls and go back home to Galt's Gulch, then fine. We don't need their stinky balls, we'll make our own balls.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ravenl0rd on May 13, 2009, 04:48:33 am
Quote
So why all this hatred?  And especially calling them immoral dicks?  I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules.  But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking.  Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.

Because we wanted to play this game. We wanted to play it bad and we're pissed off. I can bash Square if I want to. I won't do it here, because I know this place is trying to keep a good image, but you can bet I'm going to vent everywhere else. I don't care if Square is in the right legally. We need to change the laws, and if that means content creators take their balls and go back home to Galt's Gulch, then fine. We don't need their stinky balls, we'll make our own balls.

You're going to make your own mod (or balls?)
Good luck, man.  Good luck.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 13, 2009, 04:50:10 am
Not talking about a new mod, I'm talking about all the greedy content creators who will flee the industry when we reform copyright law the way it should be. I'm talking about making movies, TV shows, music, and games, in place of all the people who were just in it for the money who are gonna leave.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 13, 2009, 05:04:22 am
Wow.  Just wow.  I am ashamed to call myself a geek.  Most of the people responding to this news are retarded.
yep

Quote
Do you really think that Square spent 5 years monitoring Crimson Echoes?  Really?  Do you know anyone who has been at the same job for five years?  Let alone who would bother to calender and follow a fan project for that long?  Anyone who thinks Square held off till the end because they're evil is just a moron. 

I am appalled at the rancor and venom I've seen bandied about here and in other forums.  You think a company is evil, malicious, soulless dicks, just because they sent a cease and desist on this one fan game?  Now I really respect the creativity and dedication that went into Crimson Echoes, but come on!  99.99999% of companies protect their IP.  Sure, you could point to a few exceptions like Valve, Nintendo and Capcom--BUT THEY'RE THE EXCEPTIONS.  And I promise you they still send cease and desists too on outrageous acts of infringement.


And I hate to say, but Crimson Echoes was an outrageous act of infringement.  No way in hell it's fair use.  Red Neck, that was a decent analysis from someone who attended a class, but you're insane to think this is even debatable.  Fair use is a pipe dream.

Your best argument would be the Game Genie case, but go ahead and read it for yourself.  The reason that wasn't infringement is only because the Game Genie itself didn't have any infringing content on it.  You guys have a patch that contains a whole new game (unless my reading of the forums is totaly off).  Whole new plot, dialogue, etc.  Even going by Game Genie, you're up sh*% creek.

All of you are talking about how unprofessional the cease and desist was.  How so?  Point to a sentence that was cruel.  They set it out and threatened to sue.  They didn't sue yet.  They didn't go after all the other stuff on the Compendium.  They didn't go after al the scripts and other stuff you havelisted in the left column.  So far as I can tell, they were pretty narrowly focused.  It would've been downright inane for them to demand taking down Crimson Echoes but letting the other mods stay up.

A few people compared this cease and desist to the old one.  The new one is by the inhouse lawyers.  You guys have probably never worked int he real world, but inhouse lawyers are much more business-like than law firms.  Law firms get paid by the hour.  They use stupid legalese.  Inhouse guys go straight to the point.  I don't see anything bad about the letter, except maybe they didn't fully understand Temporal Flux, which is totally beside the point.

So why all this hatred?  And especially calling them immoral dicks?  I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules.  But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking.  Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.

Hey, any intelligent poster is welcome in my books.  Not all of us here have that "lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-rightousness", though.  Alot of us just wish to be compliant, no matter how disappointing the end result of it would be.

Not talking about a new mod, I'm talking about all the greedy content creators who will flee the industry when we reform copyright law the way it should be. I'm talking about making movies, TV shows, music, and games, in place of all the people who were just in it for the money who are gonna leave.

Hey, if you want to spend money, time, and your life trying to change copyright laws, go ahead.  But I do not think that the creators of CE would appreciate it if you used their current situation as the main basis of your stance...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FalconHit on May 13, 2009, 05:05:29 am
Not talking about a new mod, I'm talking about all the greedy content creators who will flee the industry when we reform copyright law the way it should be. I'm talking about making movies, TV shows, music, and games, in place of all the people who were just in it for the money who are gonna leave.

Come to think of it... you're right! Working for free does sound magical...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Enigma Outlaw on May 13, 2009, 05:45:44 am
It saddens me to see how many people in various places are still saying "Fuck Square! Release it anyway!" Sure that can be easy to say.....when your not the one with the proverbial gun to your head. The law team at SE have Z and companies names, addresses, ect. If they go ahead and release it anyway or if it gets leaked somehow then things are going to get much worse. The worst part is some people are getting pissed that they won't do it anyway. No offense guys but if this was my game there's no way in hell I'd be willing to burn for CE. Not at the risk of a possible $150K fine and even possible jail time if the situation warrents it.

After a few days to think about it this is the bottom line. For those of you mad at the CE team for not putting it out don't get pissed at them. Yes they spent five years working on it. Yes it was 98% done and about three weeks away from release. However in the grand scheme of things the cons far exceed the pros. At the same time don't fly off the handle at SE. Yes it sucks balls and yes it was a dick move to do it this close (I'm still finding it hard to believe hey only found out about this in the past month or so). However the Chrono Series does happen to be their IP and with that comes the right to defend themself if they feel that there is a misuse/infringement. While I myself feel there is a slim chance a case could be made once again the risk outweighs the gain. At this point the best thing we can do is support the CE team and hope a compromise can be made somehow. Short of that there are different things that can be done without flying off the handle because in the eyes of SE if they see a bunch of idiot kids screaming profanity and cursing them then they have already won. Getting the word spread is a good start. It'll put a little pressure on SE. While it may not change things in the end it will make our voices be heard and hopefully they may get SE to somehow want to come to some sort of deal.

Heh.....on a somewhat related note this sort of reminds me of the Jericho fan campaign about two years ago in an attempt to get CBS to reverse their original choice to cancel the show after the first year. Real shame that despite the efforts succeeding that they set that show up to fail anyway. In any case read up on that fan campaign.....might help get some possible ideas floating about ^_~
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: Spekkio on May 13, 2009, 06:16:07 am
None of this really makes any sense. There is already the precedent out there that it is okay to release a modded version of a 16-bit era game as long as it's in the form of a patch and that you own the actual game itself.

How can they tell you to remove a program like Temporal Flux from the site? I guess with that logic, Action Replay, Gameshark or any other program that modifies a game is illegal and should be banned.

I think that people are just falling into their trap of being scared by the C&D letter and not standing up for their rights. You guys do have rights here and they are being trampled on.

The question is: Does SE know that you did not plan on distributing this as a stand alone game? How do we know what they know?

Take a look at all of the other games out there. There are games like The Sims where there is a ton of user created content and it's legal for people to make these mods. There is no difference here.

There is no legal precedence for them to arbitrarily tell you to C&D.
Agreed. We should stand up and defy the C&D, let them know our rights!

Viva la Revolucion!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Enigma Outlaw on May 13, 2009, 07:14:25 am
Once again......it's very easy to say defy them when it isn't your ass on the chopping block. Forget for a moment that there's user content and custom stuff for other games that gets untouched. Forget all the talk about grey areas and the very slim possibility of fighting and winning. This C&F is a fact. It's confirmed to not be a hoax. With all that in mind answer me honestly Spekkio......would you seriously defy the C&D if this was your game full well knowing the odds are greatly stacked against you and what you stand to lose should a judge rule in favor of Square Enix?
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: placidchap on May 13, 2009, 08:35:24 am
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.

Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

    ``(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological
Measures.--

  (1)

    ``(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under this title
.  The
prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at
the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of
this chapter.  <<NOTE: enacted October 28, 1998.>>

TF helps circumvents the technological measures that control access to the raw data of CT.  I'd say that TF is not all that safe and it is 99% non-BS.
Title: Re: C&D: Directors' Response
Post by: MDenham on May 13, 2009, 12:18:54 pm
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.

Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

    ``(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological
Measures.--

  (1)

    ``(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under this title
.  The
prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at
the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of
this chapter.  <<NOTE: enacted October 28, 1998.>>

TF helps circumvents the technological measures that control access to the raw data of CT.  I'd say that TF is not all that safe and it is 99% non-BS.

That's a, uh, novel interpretation of that clause...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KebreI on May 13, 2009, 12:38:04 pm
In 2003 that was revised to no longer apply to obsolete technology.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 13, 2009, 12:43:27 pm
I'd like to propose a vote as to making the next "fan project" sponsored by here be a parody game. :D
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: placidchap on May 13, 2009, 12:58:44 pm
In 2003 that was revised to no longer apply to obsolete technology.

Alright lets look at that revision then...

"Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive."

So I still think TF is not safe, unless you were looking at something else.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 13, 2009, 01:08:06 pm
Okay. I'm gonna try to give a full analysis of this situation here, as I see it. I'm not a lawyer, but I just finished up a class on Intellectual Property, the vast majority of which was spent on copyright. I could try to email the professor and see if she'd give me her opinion on it, but I have a feeling it would be about the same as I come up with as I work my way through it here. (Also, I started on this about 4:00 in the afternoon, Central Time in the US, and came back to it about 10:30, and I didn't refresh the page. So, if anyone has said any of what I say in here, I apologize).
Shit, we might just be taking the same class. Anyhow, your post contains possibly the most valid information we've seen yet. Those four factors are literally what the Supreme Court uses to essentially determine "who's right" regarding copyright infringement. I suggest skipping to the end of the spoiler, in case you don't want to read much, otherwise highlight away and see how the four factors apply, in my opinion.

1) Purpose and Character: Well is this commercial or not. It's not commercial, Fair Use is preferred for noncommercial and educational purposes. But does this conform to § 107 as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research? Not so much. What is the degree of transformation? How different is CE compared to CT? It has a substantial degree of change, but the purpose and character are virtually unchanged.
2) Nature of Copyrighted Work: The scope of Fair Use is greater for "informational works" that inform or educate, and less for "creative works". The fact that the original work, CT, is creative in nature weakens the Fair Use argument.
3) Amount and Substantiality of Work taken: Is the quality and value of the material copied from the original work "reasonable" in relation to the purpose of copying? Well, the purpose of copying was to create a direct sequel, so it's kind of expected that a large portion of the original work would be taken. This factor not only evaluates the quantity of the work that has been copied, but also the quality and importance of the copied material. A good question to as is whether more work was copied than necessary.
4) Effect Upon Potential Market: The courts claim that unauthorized use is not Fair Use when the authorized use diminishes or negatively impacts the potential sale of the original copyrighted work, interferes with its marketability, or fulfills demand for the original copyrighted work. Oi, this one's a kicker: although CE may cause positive harm (the original benefits from the new work, whether in sales or interest), but this could potentially impact the sales of Chrono Trigger negatively (but wait, there are no more sales of CT! But does CT:DS count). But most notably this interferes with the marketability of CT, and that's why SE is so up-in-arms about this. This disrupts continuity, changes the series, and may even fulfill the demand for the original work: why buy CT when you could just as easily play CE?!

If you read all that was in my spoiler I can basically tell you this: the court doesn't base its decision on one factor. And sadly, it seems like three out of the four factors work against CE rather than for it. Substantial questions that needs to be answered (by a legal expert) are whether CT is still marketable or if CT:DS 's sales play a part in all of this. Don't hope that this goes to court, cause chances are that legality works against us and sympathy is all we have going for us.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: cornettheory on May 13, 2009, 01:09:26 pm
I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for everything. I came here with a goal and I was able to help achieve it thanks to this community.

Zealty and Co, I believe that you are handling this in the best way possible. This whole thing is rather unfortunate, and I hope the people at square see how other modding communities work to enhance and educate the game-playing-population, like Valve and Half-Life for example.

Maybe they will come around eventually.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 13, 2009, 01:12:56 pm
Mav, that was so not a spoiler tag.

SPOILER: there is no spoiler tag, but pink's pretty close to unreadable on the background
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RedNeckJiuJitsu on May 13, 2009, 01:49:47 pm
RySenkari - The reason copyright laws exist is so that the creative people who come up with stuff have the possibility of making financial gain from stuff that they spent time, blood, effort and creativity to make. While it's all idealistic high and mighty sounding to say that people should be making creative works for the sake of making creative works and not for monetary gain, here in the real world, it don't work like that. While there would still be some people who would take the time to do it, do you honestly believe that we would get movies or TV shows like we do now if people had to either take time off from honest work or be creative on their own time to be able to film/edit/distribute? Obviously people can make games in their free time, but think about this, the system that the orginal release of CT was designed to run on was obsolete 10 years ago, and it still took the team 5 years to make the game. As a songwriter, I can tell you that while I would be ecstatic to hear one of my songs on the radio, if nobody came and got permission from me and I wasn't getting paid for, it, I would be quite upset, so I can understand SE's perspective. Corporations are in business to make money for their shareholders. Video game companies do that through their intellectual property. That does not make them evil. When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

Mav - If you're in Nashville, then we might just have been in the same class. lol. Anyways, good analysis. I can definitely see those points. My brain wasn't back up to 100% when I was going through my analysis last night to remember some of that. While you're right that educational/commentary stuff is far more likely to be okayed as fair use, non-edu stuff has made it through, so there's a chance that CE could pass the muster to a court, but overall, like ya said, the likelihood isn't very high.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 13, 2009, 03:27:55 pm
Quote
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: zarradeth on May 13, 2009, 03:35:58 pm
Just throwing it out there, supposedly-- and I stress supposedly, someone who commented on the Digg article talked with a lawyer about CE and how it would probably be handled in courts.

Quote
stradf
Hi CE,

I had my lawyer confirm it fell under the same legislation as fanfiction. As long as you make no profit or claim ownership of characters, you have all rights to develop the game. Talk to him directly at joseph.karlson - at - karlsonandkarlson.com Tell Frank sent you.

Obviously we can't take this for a fact, you can't really put all your trust in internet comments :P. But he did give a contact info, so we might have an actual professional opinion.


Edit: And digging around on the "Expertise" section of their site. This seems to be the kind of stuff they specialize in.

And for the record I've been a long time lurker and I've been waiting for the CE release for years. This isn't my first time on the forums, just wanted to throw that out there  :).
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 13, 2009, 04:13:20 pm
Rest assured the CE project team is looking at all its options.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FalconHit on May 13, 2009, 04:56:45 pm
Quote
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

Yeah it really can't, especially when you imply that people working in a creative field should be working for free...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ravenl0rd on May 13, 2009, 05:04:01 pm

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

Chrono and crew fought for freedom, not for government controlled economies!  Go Chrono!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 13, 2009, 05:05:46 pm
Rest assured the CE project team is looking at all its options.
Good to know, FW. I'm just curious though, who exactly do you mean by the "CE project team"? Are you also looking into options, or is it Zeality and Agent12?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 13, 2009, 05:53:26 pm
Everyone on the CE team is keeping in contact and more tangential members like Ramsus and myself are acting in supportive roles as best we can. Though I'm not sure what Darkken's been up to. It's a shame, because you guys haven't had a chance to see his new character portraits yet.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Xshu on May 13, 2009, 05:58:08 pm
Salt the wound much? :P
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 13, 2009, 06:02:15 pm
Oh, sorry. Hahahah! You'll get to see it in video at the very least. Then the wound will really be salted.  :D
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RedNeckJiuJitsu on May 14, 2009, 02:56:13 am
Quote
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

Well, you sound like a kid who's lost in Never Never Land, just like every other advocate for socialism and/or anarchy that I've ever talked to/heard/read... But I don't understand how a socialist (and socialism is pro-government control) can advocate doing away with copyright laws... A communist, I could see having that view, but I guess you don't wanna be stuck under that label. Don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate for as little government as possible, but intellectual property is property just like anything else. If you worked your ass off to buy/make something, and you were proud of the effort you put into it, would you just leave it laying around and be carefree when someone came along and took it because there were no legal punishments for taking your property?
As a songwriter, without the legal protections afforded me by copyright laws to give me the possibility of making money from it, I would never put my music out there to be heard by anyone but my friends and family. I wouldn't be able to. *sarcasm* But let's just take from the people who have and give to those who don't to make 'em feel better. */sarcasm*


Chrono and crew fought for freedom, not for government controlled economies!  Go Chrono!

There's a HELL of a lot of difference between having legal protections for the products of one's mind and a government controlled economy. Look at China, where, although they are opening up to a free market, they still have a semi-government controlled economy, yet IP infringement is rampant.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 14, 2009, 03:22:14 am
However, to be restrictive on intellectual property negatively stifiles imitation, which is the very basis of artistic development. If there had been such a strong aura of intellectual property in ancient days, Vergil would have had his ass sued off by the Homeridai. After all, the Aeneid essentially amounts to Homer fanfiction. Or, look only at the joke in the other thread about how Milton and Dante recieve a C&D from God for infringing on Biblical copyrights. The point is, I don't think arts should be viewed as a business.

And before you get all high and mighty about growing up and going to college, take note that traditionally - and I believe this wholeheartedly - Business has absolutely no place in college. So don't go lording it up as though you were some master. The point is, though, that the concept that IP should be free is a philosophical one, not a business one, and in the end no number of courses in the field are going to help you sort through that ethical predicament. What many have pointed out is that SE is well within their rights for doing what they do. Yes, they are, according to the laws, they are. Yet that does not make their actions ethically right. See, there was a time when holding a slave and abusing a slave was not only legal but desirable under the law. Now, are you willing to say that those who abused slaves were within their rights because, under the law codes of the time, they were allowed to do such a thing? See, I think the problem people have with SE's actions is that they have a problem with the codified laws as they are, those very ones to which SE has recourse. And just because it's law, doesn't make it right.

Now I'm not a socialist in mentality. But regarding the arts, I do think there should be more freedom for the sake of development. You say it does not make a corporation evil because they are in it to make money. However, you have made a grave error in making these statements. You are treating the matter as a business fact, assuming a prori that if it is legal under the law it is right. However, to say 'they are not evil' is a moral judgment. And here's the main issue with what you are saying. Those who are objecting are objecting on the grounds of a moral stance that disagrees with the current laws, indeed saying that the laws themselves are morally wrong, hence evil. Therefore your statement that they are not evil because they follow the set laws has no bearing.

Personally, if I wrote something - for writing is more my artistic forte - and published it, and someone without asking took that world or ideas and wrote something of their own without asking, and did something wonderful with it, good for them. I think it would be morally wrong of me to set profit over the good of humanity which is garnered by the addition of a new work of art. The problem we have is that we have set profit to the highest point. Of course, if you are in business, you will almost certainly disagree with me, as maximizing profit is your particular skill... yet important as that might be to the functioning of our society, I cannot help but say that there are more important gains to be made. After all, if profit had not been considered, we'd have been in the Industrial Revolution two thousand years ago. Hero of Alexandria built a steam engine in antiquity, after all. But it was never implimented. After all, there were slaves. Living machines in the view of the law that could be used and abused. It was more profitable to use them rather than some mechanical contraption. The rule of that economic force potentially held back humanity for thousands of years. Likewise the use of sources of energy other than oil. Economics, therefore, while serving the individual profit very well, might have a negative influence on humanity as a whole. The same might be said in a situation as this. While it might be profitable for SE to do what they do, for their own sake, it might diminish the progression of the art, and take something away from humanity. They, in that sense, are hoarding a good that should not belong to them, but commonly to all people.

Could that not be called evil?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: knuck on May 14, 2009, 08:19:11 am
Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Happy-Dude on May 14, 2009, 09:19:40 am
Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs

True that. Sometimes, I wonder if things can be as popular as it was during the times where organized institutions didn't exist. Such as the works of musicians (Beethoven, Mozart) and writers (Shakespeare and Homer).

Besides, people can make fanart, fanfiction, and remixes... ROM patching is fanfiction for a video game, no? (It a way parallel to TPB trial; people are just too stubborn to notice the world changing around them -- this time, its not change brought by the corporations and institutions, but rather individuals taking on ambitious tasks.)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: placidchap on May 14, 2009, 09:37:18 am
One of the problems is that copyright, as of right now, is the only avenue.  It has a 'monopoly' on intellectual property and as with all monopolies, it is bad for the people.  I just had a philosophy course on Business Ethics (I would have surely used your post for the final exam, without permission no doubt, Daniel) and one of the topics near the end was IP.  There was a fellow who suggested an alternative to copyright, called the "artistic freedom voucher".  While the mechanics of the "AFV" may or may not be sound, the idea of an alternative solution to copyright is appealing.  It doesn't replace copyright but coexists with it.  The AFV would technically be funded by the government for those that apply for the program.  Artists who register give up copyright 'protection' in exchange for support from the program.  People indicate on their tax return who they would like to support (kind of like donations but not quite).  For the people who do not indicate any persons, their support would go to a general fund that would be dispersed evenly to all of those in the currently registered in the AFV program.  People can then freely create derivative works and other stuff that copyright limits.

I probably didn't do the article justice so I attached it for anyone interested.  ( hopefully not copyright infringement :o )  Not to keen on his wherever he got his numebrs from but...

Like I said, I'm not sure on the merits or mechanics of this AFV thing but I can agree that, most certainly, an alternative to copyright should be introduced.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Thought on May 14, 2009, 10:38:14 am
But regarding the arts, I do think there should be more freedom for the sake of development.

The solution is simple; make it so intellectual properties cannot be held by corporations but only by specific individuals. This puts the infringer on the same vague economic level as the infringee, allowing for protective excess to reasonably be addressed in a legal setting. We might feel that SE was punkish for the C&D letter, we might even feel that it was morally improper and legally dubious. But because of the difference in resources they can't be challenged. Consider if it was Kato who sent the C&D, however. Everything would be a little more personal and we might be able to work something out that is agreeable to all parties.

After all, if profit had not been considered, we'd have been in the Industrial Revolution two thousand years ago. Hero of Alexandria built a steam engine in antiquity, after all. But it was never implimented. After all, there were slaves. Living machines in the view of the law that could be used and abused. It was more profitable to use them rather than some mechanical contraption.

I'd argue that if profit had not been considered, we still wouldn't have had the Industrial Revolution, simple because it would have never been worthwhile for individuals to switch over to mechanization. Cottage Industry could have still survived because profit wasn't a consideration. Same with standardization; if there is no economic advantage for everyone to work together, why work together? If everyone was rational, that would work. But then again, if everyone was rational, economics would still work too.

Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs

If we live in a good, decent world, then you are attempting to be satirical. As such, I will assume you are attempting such. Bravo, Mr. Swift.

Besides, people can make fanart, fanfiction, and remixes...

They can, but it is still copyright infringement. Fanfiction, fanart, etc exist in a grey area; it is technically illegal but is seldom prosecuted or even frowned upon. However, there are some IP holders who do aggressively pursue such infringements. The reason for this isn't that they are mean spirited, but rather ignoring copyright infringement can create a legal basis for one no longer having copy protection. The fact that SE didn't send a C&D to Prophet's Guile when it was released would actually help protect the CE team if they had released the game and SE attempted to sue, for example.


People seem to forget that copyright laws are very easy to get around. If you actually ask the owner and get permission, your work isn't an infringement. On a large scale, say with a corporation, that isn't practical, but with individuals it enters the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: knuck on May 14, 2009, 11:18:42 am
A good solution would be to make copyright last a lot less, say, 3 years at most. That would fix a lot of things.
It's easy to fix copyright. However, solutions that coexist with copyright simply won't work, because people are greedy and will always go for copyright. You either have to kill it or change it.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Thought on May 14, 2009, 11:22:23 am
Not really; for starting artists the copyright might expire before they can even get it widely published. Perhaps certain elements of a copyright might start to expire at certain points, but 3 years is far too short.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 14, 2009, 04:43:00 pm
Well, what I think is there should be a copyright on the exact work itself, but not on derivations thereof. It requires the artist to keep a certain level of performance if they wish to do anything more with it. Essentially, if someone else can follow up on it and do better with it, the right to use it passes then to the other person. However, the artist would retain copyright for the original work. In this case, then, SE would keep a copyright on CT itself, but anyone would be free to make a sequel. And if SE is really that good at making these games, it truly shouldn't matter because their product will out-perform the others, and they should not need any sort of further protection. But if the product is inferior, then the superior product made by others is to be had by the public.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 14, 2009, 04:47:35 pm
Well, I think a huge problem today is that Square probably wants to protect the brand-name. They may be worried about the quality of this ROM hack and how it would affect the series in terms of continuity, finances, as well reputation. But if quality and reputation are what they're worried about, they should take the time to play through the actual game and evaluate it by their own standards.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Lord J Esq on May 14, 2009, 05:50:06 pm
Well, what I think is there should be a copyright on the exact work itself, but not on derivations thereof. It requires the artist to keep a certain level of performance if they wish to do anything more with it. Essentially, if someone else can follow up on it and do better with it, the right to use it passes then to the other person. However, the artist would retain copyright for the original work. In this case, then, SE would keep a copyright on CT itself, but anyone would be free to make a sequel. And if SE is really that good at making these games, it truly shouldn't matter because their product will out-perform the others, and they should not need any sort of further protection. But if the product is inferior, then the superior product made by others is to be had by the public.

This would have the unfortunate side effect of achieving exactly what you're trying to avoid: making large companies hyper-competitive and squeezing out small-time artists. Your mistake is assuming that artistic merit is the measure by which people spend their dollars. If Individual U has an Excellent Idea E, but can only execute it on a Fixed Budget F, and then Scheming Corporation S swoops down and makes E its own, and collects the lion's share of the profits, then we wind up with a fundamental imbalance in the creative expression:

SE > FU

Your philosophy is spot-on, but your implementation is hopelessly flawed.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 14, 2009, 05:53:57 pm
Instead of giving anyone free reign to make a profit off of a derivative work, the copyright laws just need to be changed so that more non-profit derivative works (i.e. fanfiction, game mods, etc.) are allowed, provided they include a disclaimer that explicitly disassociates it with the real thing. I don't think that would scare any content creators away, and companies wouldn't have to protect their IP by going after them because they'd already be legally allowed.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Thought on May 14, 2009, 05:58:02 pm
SE > FU

Beautiful letter choice.

Instead of giving anyone free reign to make a profit off of a derivative work, the copyright laws just need to be changed so that more non-profit derivative works (i.e. fanfiction, game mods, etc.) are allowed, provided they include a disclaimer that explicitly disassociates it with the real thing.

A wonderful business tactic, then, would be for Big Business A to squash Up and Coming Competitor B by making so many non-profit derivative works that Up and Coming Competitor B couldn't release new products because of a saturated market.

Laws can always be abused by the mildly clever.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 15, 2009, 02:10:03 am
Well, what I think is there should be a copyright on the exact work itself, but not on derivations thereof. It requires the artist to keep a certain level of performance if they wish to do anything more with it. Essentially, if someone else can follow up on it and do better with it, the right to use it passes then to the other person. However, the artist would retain copyright for the original work. In this case, then, SE would keep a copyright on CT itself, but anyone would be free to make a sequel. And if SE is really that good at making these games, it truly shouldn't matter because their product will out-perform the others, and they should not need any sort of further protection. But if the product is inferior, then the superior product made by others is to be had by the public.

This would have the unfortunate side effect of achieving exactly what you're trying to avoid: making large companies hyper-competitive and squeezing out small-time artists. Your mistake is assuming that artistic merit is the measure by which people spend their dollars. If Individual U has an Excellent Idea E, but can only execute it on a Fixed Budget F, and then Scheming Corporation S swoops down and makes E its own, and collects the lion's share of the profits, then we wind up with a fundamental imbalance in the creative expression:

SE > FU

Your philosophy is spot-on, but your implementation is hopelessly flawed.

Likely as not. It was, I suppose, just a flare of idealism.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 16, 2009, 12:06:09 am
Sorry if I came across as fanboyish way too strongly.


But my point is that quitting isn't what the creators want, if they just quite then they're not doing it because they -want- nobody to play their game, they're doing it because they're fearful and intimidated by SE Corporation.

However, quitting isn't the best option for them.  Think about it- you only have a chance to be young once in your life.  Then you grow up and have to work in some crappy cubicle pretending to like people who are jerks so you can make money and fetching coffee and donuts for pinhead bosses.

If they do quit then this is something that'll bother them for a VERY long time and something they'll regret greatly.  Time will never fully heal those wounds.

Releasing it would be better for them on a personal level.  Whatever SE might toss at them (and bear in mind that they have to worry about reactions from fan sites and the gaming community and mod community) will NOT be as bad as the eternal regret the creators will carry to their graves.  SE's legal bullshit will blow over soon, and won't be so bad because fans would turn against them if they went all RIAA on them.  The regrets the creators will carry will never go away.  That's why I think they gotta release the game.  Not just for us fans but most of all for themselves and their own personal welfare.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 16, 2009, 12:15:08 am
Glenn27, it's probably a whole other world when you're the one with the C&D hanging over you. We probably can't imagine quite what the parties named in the C&D have been going through. Still, regardless of which viewpoint you have I think we can agree that the best option for the time being is to get the channels of communication open. SE stepped into this without full knowledge of what the Compendium was doing or how Chrono fans would react en masse. Both sides need to fully understand each other's position before doing anything rash.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 16, 2009, 12:24:49 am
Okay that makes sense.... (sorry to any SE people my posts may have offended)


Two questions.... one, have you tried contacting Japanese news sites?  The creators might be sympathetic if they knew though I don't know if Japanese news sites would carry something like this. (actually, not knowing any Japanese, I'm clueless about their news.  And I'm sure the creators are clueless about Kotaku)



And two, good luck with your talking to SE, do you have any idea how long until discussions will be definitively complete?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 16, 2009, 12:39:56 am
I honestly have no idea whether the news of the C&D has hopped languages to Japanese sites yet; anyone know?

With the communication process on SE's side filtering through multiple chains of command and multiple departments, let alone multiple countries potentially, we need to be patient as they talk to those named in the C&D. We know Chrono fans are eagerly waiting for some kind of new news on the situation, and we are too. We'll be sure to let you all know when further developments happen.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Vehek on May 16, 2009, 12:57:35 am
It's on some Japanese sites, though I don't know how many places it's gone to, or if it's reached Japanese news sites.

http://hakopina.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-346.html

I've also seen a mention on 2channel in a CT-hacking thread.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 16, 2009, 01:13:26 am
Wow, I wonder if Japanese fans are feverishly trying to whip up translations of what's said in the preview videos, or maybe what's in the C&D.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 16, 2009, 02:40:24 am
Wow, I wonder if Japanese fans are feverishly trying to whip up translations of what's said in the preview videos, or maybe what's in the C&D.

that would be pretty cool...

...what would be even cooler is if one of our compendiumites (who somehow knows Japanese) took the video and whipped it up with japanese subtitles for em
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 16, 2009, 04:04:47 am
It's on some Japanese sites, though I don't know how many places it's gone to, or if it's reached Japanese news sites.

http://hakopina.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-346.html

I've also seen a mention on 2channel in a CT-hacking thread.

Wow I used that wierd babelfish thing for the first time and boy does it transilate things....well literely..of course it's a computer program so obviously it would.

So basicly it says the same thing everything as says....how pleasent. ^.^
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Enigma Outlaw on May 16, 2009, 04:47:15 am
So as not to beat a dead horse once more I'll make this quick. In regards to Glenn27 I'll say again. If you were in their shoes could you possibly handle the potential of up to $150K in fines, plus court costs and possible jail time? If your answer is yes then apprently you've got bigger balls then all of us...lol

This seems to be the one thing people who are shouting "RELEASE IT!" are missing. Sure you may regret not putting it out after working on it so long but the regrets are going to be much bigger when your more than likely broke and/or in prison.

Anyway grats on the story hopping the pond guys. Wish I was fluent in Japanese so I could help out too. I think the idea was tossed around in one of the many topics already but can someone fluent perhaps try to contact that big Japanese game mag Famisu? (at least I think that's what they are called)

If not them then try someone else. Someone that may actually hold influence with either a big mag or gaming site or even god willing someone like Akira Toriyama ^_~
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 16, 2009, 05:15:58 am
Quote
So as not to beat a dead horse once more I'll make this quick. In regards to Glenn27 I'll say again. If you were in their shoes could you possibly handle the potential of up to $150K in fines, plus court costs and possible jail time? If your answer is yes then apprently you've got bigger balls then all of us...lol

Well, people HAVE stood up to C&D orders before. Max Goldberg of YTMND comes to mind, he's stood up to orders from Sega and the Church of Scientology, and then there was also the little case where he leaked Harry Potter 7 book spoilers and defied a direct order from Scholastic to take them down.

Difference between Max and the CE makers, however, is that YTMND is basically Max's whole life now, so he was definitely in a position to afford any lawsuit that arose. Also, we don't know what Square Enix would do, they might be more likely to sue than Sega, Scholastic, or Scientology were.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Happy-Dude on May 16, 2009, 08:15:17 am
We got to show SE how dedicated the entire Chrono Compendium team is to the Chrono series...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Zeality

I mean, come on, from what I can see, Zeality was the very person who brought all pages *Chrono* to accurate, detailed, and featured statuses!!

Otherwise, these pages might have become just a disorganized mess of information... (Like the issue that plagued many other smaller series.)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 16, 2009, 05:14:24 pm
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 16, 2009, 10:47:17 pm
I think that is a load of BS.  If they didn't care about the fans, FFVII wouldn't have gotten all those spin offs of it.  I mean, yeah, they've become old, tedious, and contrived, but it was because fans wanted them at the time.  They did release CT:DS.  It isn't a huge step, but it shows Square IS listening to what the fans are saying, if only a little bit.  If anything, it's a sign saying that all they need is proof.  If they get proof that CT will bring them money, they will give us what we want, because it will give them what they want.  You gotta learn to read between the lines, rather than looking at the lines and calling them crap.  Nothing great ever occured that way.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 16, 2009, 11:11:02 pm
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.

Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 17, 2009, 02:44:33 am
So as not to beat a dead horse once more I'll make this quick. In regards to Glenn27 I'll say again. If you were in their shoes could you possibly handle the potential of up to $150K in fines, plus court costs and possible jail time? If your answer is yes then apprently you've got bigger balls then all of us...lol


Actually it would depend on the circumstance.  If it was for something I considered insignificant and unimportant then yeah, I'd probably give it up because it didn't matter to me.

But if it was something important to me and near and dear to my heart that I'd regret losing then I'd never give it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ20N6syuwc



If they do give in to SE then all they'll have left is maybe having their own Wiki page to look at and some comments on Youtube videos while thinking about "the good ol' days" and "what could have been", and that'd really be a shame.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 17, 2009, 03:06:39 am
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.

Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!

The C&D letter that SE sent to CE's Developers is a shameful act of aggressiveness toward their many fan's, and should be seen as such. I have come from the darkest of hiding places to express my anger toward Square, I am here by boycotting any and all games made by Square (Except the ones I already own :P) and/or their associate's as a retaliation to this shameful act. It's not like they've made anything good for years anyway.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 03:20:55 am
Please try and refrain from saying things that have been said constantly over the past week -.- we don't need to know every single person that is upset.  You are still free to join the forum, but there really isn't a point joining if you're just going to whine about how evil SE is in ONE post, and then fade away.  Seriously, I'm getting tired of you people  :picardno
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 17, 2009, 03:49:48 am
...... You people..... I wouldn't have added a Avatar if I was going to fade away, I'm going to try and help, I'm reviewing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act as we type here now, and from time to time peeking my head in here so blah to you.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Agent 12 on May 17, 2009, 04:09:31 am
Sorry seph I think everyone is a little tense here, we had a long week as you can imagine :)

Browse around you may find a petition that you enjoy.


--JP


Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: DBoruta on May 17, 2009, 10:35:06 am
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.

Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!

No.  Screw SE.  They're not the same company anymore, and the games they make nowadays suck anyway.  I mean, who "makes a whole new game" by adding on to games over 10 years old?  It just ruins the old game.  Yes, I'm talking about CT DS.  I didn't buy it and refuse to now.  Hell, even though I bought a PS3 in part for the sake of getting FFvsXIII this year, I think I'll just boycott the game. Screw SE.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 17, 2009, 11:55:40 am
Sorry seph I think everyone is a little tense here, we had a long week as you can imagine :)

Browse around you may find a petition that you enjoy.


--JP




It's okay, I understand. As for the petition I already singed it :P

Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.

Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!

No.  Screw SE.  They're not the same company anymore, and the games they make nowadays suck anyway.  I mean, who "makes a whole new game" by adding on to games over 10 years old?  It just ruins the old game.  Yes, I'm talking about CT DS.  I didn't buy it and refuse to now.  Hell, even though I bought a PS3 in part for the sake of getting FFvsXIII this year, I think I'll just boycott the game. Screw SE.

No they are indeed the same company, Square merged with another company witch give them a bunch of new staff, and management.... sadly after all these years they have just lost their touch, and most likely fired most of the old staff and/or they retired after so many years of ass kicking game making...

I did find that the "Digital Millennium Copyright Act" has some anti-circumvention exemptions witch are long and boring to read, and also the exemption rules are revised every three years, and as far as I can tell they haven't done that since 06 meaning they are going to sometime this year, witch may be a big pain in the ass, eveything I've read could be subject to change sometime this year and could become useless.......


Anyway this is one of the laws their try to hit you with, Bold is the part they are trying to enforce:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
§ 504. Remedies for infringement: Damages and profits3

(a) In General. — Except as otherwise provided by this title, an infringer of copyright is liable for either —

(1) the copyright owner's actual damages and any additional profits of the infringer, as provided by subsection (b); or

(2) statutory damages, as provided by subsection (c).

(b) Actual Damages and Profits. — The copyright owner is entitled to recover the actual damages suffered by him or her as a result of the infringement, and any profits of the infringer that are attributable to the infringement and are not taken into account in computing the actual damages. In establishing the infringer's profits, the copyright owner is required to present proof only of the infringer's gross revenue, and the infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and the elements of profit attributable to factors other than the copyrighted work.

(c) Statutory Damages. —

(1) Except as provided by clause (2) of this subsection, the copyright owner may elect, at any time before final judgment is rendered, to recover, instead of actual damages and profits, an award of statutory damages for all infringements involved in the action, with respect to any one work, for which any one infringer is liable individually, or for which any two or more infringers are liable jointly and severally, in a sum of not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just. For the purposes of this subsection, all the parts of a compilation or derivative work constitute one work.

(2) In a case where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000. In a case where the infringer sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that such infringer was not aware and had no reason to believe that his or her acts constituted an infringement of copyright, the court in its discretion may reduce the award of statutory damages to a sum of not less than $200. The court shall remit statutory damages in any case where an infringer believed and had reasonable grounds for believing that his or her use of the copyrighted work was a fair use under section 107, if the infringer was: (i) an employee or agent of a nonprofit educational institution, library, or archives acting within the scope of his or her employment who, or such institution, library, or archives itself, which infringed by reproducing the work in copies or phonorecords; or (ii) a public broadcasting entity which or a person who, as a regular part of the nonprofit activities of a public broadcasting entity (as defined in subsection (g) of section 118) infringed by performing a published nondramatic literary work or by reproducing a transmission program embodying a performance of such a work.

(3) (A) In a case of infringement, it shall be a rebuttable presumption that the infringement was committed willfully for purposes of determining relief if the violator, or a person acting in concert with the violator, knowingly provided or knowingly caused to be provided materially false contact information to a domain name registrar, domain name registry, or other domain name registration authority in registering, maintaining, or renewing a domain name used in connection with the infringement.

(B) Nothing in this paragraph limits what may be considered willful infringement under this subsection.

(C) For purposes of this paragraph, the term “domain name” has the meaning given that term in section 45 of the Act entitled “An Act to provide for the registration and protection of trademarks used in commerce, to carry out the provisions of certain international conventions, and for other purposes” approved July 5, 1946 (commonly referred to as the “Trademark Act of 1946”; 15 U.S.C. 1127).

(d) Additional Damages in Certain Cases. — In any case in which the court finds that a defendant proprietor of an establishment who claims as a defense that its activities were exempt under section 110(5) did not have reasonable grounds to believe that its use of a copyrighted work was exempt under such section, the plaintiff shall be entitled to, in addition to any award of damages under this section, an additional award of two times the amount of the license fee that the proprietor of the establishment concerned should have paid the plaintiff for such use during the preceding period of up to 3 years.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And here's the other:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
§ 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems2

(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures. — (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).

(C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine —

(i) the availability for use of copyrighted works;

(ii) the availability for use of works for nonprofit archival, preservation, and educational purposes;

(iii) the impact that the prohibition on the circumvention of technological measures applied to copyrighted works has on criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research;

(iv) the effect of circumvention of technological measures on the market for or value of copyrighted works; and

(v) such other factors as the Librarian considers appropriate.

(D) The Librarian shall publish any class of copyrighted works for which the Librarian has determined, pursuant to the rulemaking conducted under subparagraph (C), that noninfringing uses by persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be, adversely affected, and the prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to such users with respect to such class of works for the ensuing 3-year period.

(E) Neither the exception under subparagraph (B) from the applicability of the prohibition contained in subparagraph (A), nor any determination made in a rulemaking conducted under subparagraph (C), may be used as a defense in any action to enforce any provision of this title other than this paragraph.

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that —

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

(3) As used in this subsection —

(A) to “circumvent a technological measure” means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and

(B) a technological measure “effectively controls access to a work” if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.

(b) Additional Violations. — (1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that —

(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof.

(2) As used in this subsection —

(A) to “circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure” means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; and

(B) a technological measure “effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title” if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, prevents, restricts, or otherwise limits the exercise of a right of a copyright owner under this title.

(c) Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected. — (1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.

(2) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish vicarious or contributory liability for copyright infringement in connection with any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof.

(3) Nothing in this section shall require that the design of, or design and selection of parts and components for, a consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing product provide for a response to any particular technological measure, so long as such part or component, or the product in which such part or component is integrated, does not otherwise fall within the prohibitions of subsection (a)(2) or (b)(1).

(4) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing products.

(d) Exemption for Nonprofit Libraries, Archives, and Educational Institutions. — (1) A nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution which gains access to a commercially exploited copyrighted work solely in order to make a good faith determination of whether to acquire a copy of that work for the sole purpose of engaging in conduct permitted under this title shall not be in violation of subsection (a)(1)(A). A copy of a work to which access has been gained under this paragraph —

(A) may not be retained longer than necessary to make such good faith determination; and

(B) may not be used for any other purpose.

(2) The exemption made available under paragraph (1) shall only apply with respect to a work when an identical copy of that work is not reasonably available in another form.

(3) A nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution that willfully for the purpose of commercial advantage or financial gain violates paragraph (1) —

(A) shall, for the first offense, be subject to the civil remedies under section 1203; and

(B) shall, for repeated or subsequent offenses, in addition to the civil remedies under section 1203, forfeit the exemption provided under paragraph (1).

(4) This subsection may not be used as a defense to a claim under subsection (a)(2) or (b), nor may this subsection permit a nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution to manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, component, or part thereof, which circumvents a technological measure.

(5) In order for a library or archives to qualify for the exemption under this subsection, the collections of that library or archives shall be —

(A) open to the public; or

(B) available not only to researchers affiliated with the library or archives or with the institution of which it is a part, but also to other persons doing research in a specialized field.

(e) Law Enforcement, Intelligence, and Other Government Activities. — This section does not prohibit any lawfully authorized investigative, protective, information security, or intelligence activity of an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision of a State, or a person acting pursuant to a contract with the United States, a State, or a political subdivision of a State. For purposes of this subsection, the term “information security” means activities carried out in order to identify and address the vulnerabilities of a government computer, computer system, or computer network.

(f) Reverse Engineering. — (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title.

(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

(4) For purposes of this subsection, the term “interoperability” means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.

(g) Encryption Research. —

(1) Definitions. — For purposes of this subsection —

(A) the term “encryption research” means activities necessary to identify and analyze flaws and vulnerabilities of encryption technologies applied to copyrighted works, if these activities are conducted to advance the state of knowledge in the field of encryption technology or to assist in the development of encryption products; and

(B) the term “encryption technology” means the scrambling and descrambling of information using mathematical formulas or algorithms.

(2) Permissible acts of encryption research. — Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure as applied to a copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of a published work in the course of an act of good faith encryption research if —

(A) the person lawfully obtained the encrypted copy, phonorecord, performance, or display of the published work;

(B) such act is necessary to conduct such encryption research;

(C) the person made a good faith effort to obtain authorization before the circumvention; and

(D) such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including section 1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986.

(3) Factors in determining exemption. — In determining whether a person qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be considered shall include —

(A) whether the information derived from the encryption research was disseminated, and if so, whether it was disseminated in a manner reasonably calculated to advance the state of knowledge or development of encryption technology, versus whether it was disseminated in a manner that facilitates infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security;

(B) whether the person is engaged in a legitimate course of study, is employed, or is appropriately trained or experienced, in the field of encryption technology; and

(C) whether the person provides the copyright owner of the work to which the technological measure is applied with notice of the findings and documentation of the research, and the time when such notice is provided.

(4) Use of technological means for research activities. — Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to —

(A) develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure for the sole purpose of that person performing the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2); and

(B) provide the technological means to another person with whom he or she is working collaboratively for the purpose of conducting the acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2) or for the purpose of having that other person verify his or her acts of good faith encryption research described in paragraph (2).

(5) Report to Congress. — Not later than 1 year after the date of the enactment of this chapter, the Register of Copyrights and the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce shall jointly report to the Congress on the effect this subsection has had on —

(A) encryption research and the development of encryption technology;

(B) the adequacy and effectiveness of technological measures designed to protect copyrighted works; and

(C) protection of copyright owners against the unauthorized access to their encrypted copyrighted works.

The report shall include legislative recommendations, if any.

(h) Exceptions Regarding Minors. — In applying subsection (a) to a component or part, the court may consider the necessity for its intended and actual incorporation in a technology, product, service, or device, which —

(1) does not itself violate the provisions of this title; and

(2) has the sole purpose to prevent the access of minors to material on the Internet.

(i) Protection of Personally Identifying Information. —

(1) Circumvention permitted. — Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title, if —

(A) the technological measure, or the work it protects, contains the capability of collecting or disseminating personally identifying information reflecting the online activities of a natural person who seeks to gain access to the work protected;

(B) in the normal course of its operation, the technological measure, or the work it protects, collects or disseminates personally identifying information about the person who seeks to gain access to the work protected, without providing conspicuous notice of such collection or dissemination to such person, and without providing such person with the capability to prevent or restrict such collection or dissemination;

(C) the act of circumvention has the sole effect of identifying and disabling the capability described in subparagraph (A), and has no other effect on the ability of any person to gain access to any work; and

(D) the act of circumvention is carried out solely for the purpose of preventing the collection or dissemination of personally identifying information about a natural person who seeks to gain access to the work protected, and is not in violation of any other law.

(2) Inapplicability to certain technological measures. —

This subsection does not apply to a technological measure, or a work it protects, that does not collect or disseminate personally identifying information and that is disclosed to a user as not having or using such capability.

(j) Security Testing. —

(1) Definition. — For purposes of this subsection, the term “security testing” means accessing a computer, computer system, or computer network, solely for the purpose of good faith testing, investigating, or correcting, a security flaw or vulnerability, with the authorization of the owner or operator of such computer, computer system, or computer network.

(2) Permissible acts of security testing. — Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to engage in an act of security testing, if such act does not constitute infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including section 1030 of title 18 and those provisions of title 18 amended by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986.

(3) Factors in determining exemption. — In determining whether a person qualifies for the exemption under paragraph (2), the factors to be considered shall include —

(A) whether the information derived from the security testing was used solely to promote the security of the owner or operator of such computer, computer system or computer network, or shared directly with the developer of such computer, computer system, or computer network; and

(B) whether the information derived from the security testing was used or maintained in a manner that does not facilitate infringement under this title or a violation of applicable law other than this section, including a violation of privacy or breach of security.

(4) Use of technological means for security testing. — Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(2), it is not a violation of that subsection for a person to develop, produce, distribute or employ technological means for the sole purpose of performing the acts of security testing described in subsection (2), provided such technological means does not otherwise violate section (a)(2).

(k) Certain Analog Devices and Certain Technological Measures. —

(1) Certain analog devices. —

(A) Effective 18 months after the date of the enactment of this chapter, no person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any —

(i) VHS format analog video cassette recorder unless such recorder conforms to the automatic gain control copy control technology;

(ii) 8mm format analog video cassette camcorder unless such camcorder conforms to the automatic gain control technology;

(iii) Beta format analog video cassette recorder, unless such recorder conforms to the automatic gain control copy control technology, except that this requirement shall not apply until there are 1,000 Beta format analog video cassette recorders sold in the United States in any one calendar year after the date of the enactment of this chapter;

(iv) 8mm format analog video cassette recorder that is not an analog video cassette camcorder, unless such recorder conforms to the automatic gain control copy control technology, except that this requirement shall not apply until there are 20,000 such recorders sold in the United States in any one calendar year after the date of the enactment of this chapter; or

(v) analog video cassette recorder that records using an NTSC format video input and that is not otherwise covered under clauses (i) through (iv), unless such device conforms to the automatic gain control copy control technology.

(B) Effective on the date of the enactment of this chapter, no person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in —

(i) any VHS format analog video cassette recorder or any 8mm format analog video cassette recorder if the design of the model of such recorder has been modified after such date of enactment so that a model of recorder that previously conformed to the automatic gain control copy control technology no longer conforms to such technology; or

(ii) any VHS format analog video cassette recorder, or any 8mm format analog video cassette recorder that is not an 8mm analog video cassette camcorder, if the design of the model of such recorder has been modified after such date of enactment so that a model of recorder that previously conformed to the four-line colorstripe copy control technology no longer conforms to such technology.

Manufacturers that have not previously manufactured or sold a VHS format analog video cassette recorder, or an 8mm format analog cassette recorder, shall be required to conform to the four-line colorstripe copy control technology in the initial model of any such recorder manufactured after the date of the enactment of this chapter, and thereafter to continue conforming to the four-line colorstripe copy control technology. For purposes of this subparagraph, an analog video cassette recorder “conforms to” the four-line colorstripe copy control technology if it records a signal that, when played back by the playback function of that recorder in the normal viewing mode, exhibits, on a reference display device, a display containing distracting visible lines through portions of the viewable picture.

(2) Certain encoding restrictions. — No person shall apply the automatic gain control copy control technology or colorstripe copy control technology to prevent or limit consumer copying except such copying —

(A) of a single transmission, or specified group of transmissions, of live events or of audiovisual works for which a member of the public has exercised choice in selecting the transmissions, including the content of the transmissions or the time of receipt of such transmissions, or both, and as to which such member is charged a separate fee for each such transmission or specified group of transmissions;

(B) from a copy of a transmission of a live event or an audiovisual work if such transmission is provided by a channel or service where payment is made by a member of the public for such channel or service in the form of a subscription fee that entitles the member of the public to receive all of the programming contained in such channel or service;

(C) from a physical medium containing one or more prerecorded audiovisual works; or

(D) from a copy of a transmission described in subparagraph (A) or from a copy made from a physical medium described in subparagraph (C).

In the event that a transmission meets both the conditions set forth in subparagraph (A) and those set forth in subparagraph (B), the transmission shall be treated as a transmission described in subparagraph (A).

(3) Inapplicability. — This subsection shall not —

(A) require any analog video cassette camcorder to conform to the automatic gain control copy control technology with respect to any video signal received through a camera lens;

(B) apply to the manufacture, importation, offer for sale, provision of, or other trafficking in, any professional analog video cassette recorder; or

(C) apply to the offer for sale or provision of, or other trafficking in, any previously owned analog video cassette recorder, if such recorder was legally manufactured and sold when new and not subsequently modified in violation of paragraph (1)(B).

(4) Definitions. — For purposes of this subsection:

(A) An “analog video cassette recorder” means a device that records, or a device that includes a function that records, on electromagnetic tape in an analog format the electronic impulses produced by the video and audio portions of a television program, motion picture, or other form of audiovisual work.

(B) An “analog video cassette camcorder” means an analog video cassette recorder that contains a recording function that operates through a camera lens and through a video input that may be connected with a television or other video playback device.

(C) An analog video cassette recorder “conforms” to the automatic gain control copy control technology if it —

(i) detects one or more of the elements of such technology and does not record the motion picture or transmission protected by such technology; or

(ii) records a signal that, when played back, exhibits a meaningfully distorted or degraded display.

(D) The term “professional analog video cassette recorder” means an analog video cassette recorder that is designed, manufactured, marketed, and intended for use by a person who regularly employs such a device for a lawful business or industrial use, including making, performing, displaying, distributing, or transmitting copies of motion pictures on a commercial scale.

(E) The terms “VHS format,” “8mm format,” “Beta format,” “automatic gain control copy control technology,” “colorstripe copy control technology,” “four-line version of the colorstripe copy control technology,” and “NTSC” have the meanings that are commonly understood in the consumer electronics and motion picture industries as of the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(5) Violations. — Any violation of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall be treated as a violation of subsection (b)(1) of this section. Any violation of paragraph (2) of this subsection shall be deemed an “act of circumvention” for the purposes of section 1203(c)(3)(A) of this chapter.


Here's the site where I obtained these laws:

http://www.copyright.gov/

Relevant Chapter's:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#504
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap12.html#1201

All Chapter's can be found here:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 17, 2009, 12:53:53 pm
I found something else that leads me to believe Square has made a legit claim, but I hope I'm wrong seeing as how you were going to release it as free I just might be wrong.

(3) Existing derivative works. —

(A) In the case of a derivative work that is based upon a restored work and is created —

(i) before the date of the enactment of the Uruguay Round Agreements Act, if the source country of the restored work is an eligible country on such date, or

(ii) before the date on which the source country of the restored work becomes an eligible country, if that country is not an eligible country on such date of enactment,

a reliance party may continue to exploit that derivative work for the duration of the restored copyright if the reliance party pays to the owner of the restored copyright reasonable compensation for conduct which would be subject to a remedy for infringement but for the provisions of this paragraph.

(B) In the absence of an agreement between the parties, the amount of such compensation shall be determined by an action in United States district court, and shall reflect any harm to the actual or potential market for or value of the restored work from the reliance party's continued exploitation of the work, as well as compensation for the relative contributions of expression of the author of the restored work and the reliance party to the derivative work.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) Notices of intent served on a reliance party. —

(A) Notices of intent to enforce a restored copyright may be served on a reliance party at any time after the date of restoration of the restored copyright.[/i]

(B) Notices of intent to enforce a restored copyright served on a reliance party shall be signed by the owner or the owner's agent, shall identify the restored work and the work in which the restored work is used, if any, in detail sufficient to identify them, and shall include an English translation of the title, any other alternative titles known to the owner by which the work may be identified, the use or uses to which the owner objects, and an address and telephone number at which the reliance party may contact the owner. If the notice is signed by an agent, the agency relationship must have been constituted in writing and signed by the owner before service of the notice.

(3) Effect of material false statements. — Any material false statement knowingly made with respect to any restored copyright identified in any notice of intent shall make void all claims and assertions made with respect to such restored copyright.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works38

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(3) subject to the limitations set forth in section 113(d), shall have the right —

(A) to prevent any intentional distortion, mutilation, or other modification of that work which would be prejudicial to his or her honor or reputation, and any intentional distortion, mutilation, or modification of that work is a violation of that right, and

(B) to prevent any destruction of a work of recognized stature, and any intentional or grossly negligent destruction of that work is a violation of that right.


These have been pulled from all over that page if you want the whole page you must click the link:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#102

God let me be wrong.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 17, 2009, 03:25:45 pm
On the plus side (and keep in mind that this, once again, is neither legal advice nor a reasonable substitute thereof), screwing around with SNES ROMs themselves does not get us in trouble (see 1201(a)(3)(B) and then realize that if it were applied to ROMs, it also applies to any storage medium that doesn't encrypt its contents).
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Crono as Glenn on May 17, 2009, 05:12:31 pm
I don't know if this was posted on this site but on Arc Forums this suspicious person posted this email


http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15931

is the topic

Alienat0r is the poster, the Email is under the spoiler tags.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: odekam on May 17, 2009, 05:22:26 pm
Man....  :picardno
I don't even know what to say...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 17, 2009, 05:28:04 pm
Wow... That's truly... Wow.  Just wow.  ZeaLity, Agent12, and everyone else needs to make sure they read that.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 17, 2009, 05:29:29 pm
Yup yup, the CE team has seen it. Thanks CasG for posting it.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 05:32:18 pm
indeed

I'm sure they will.  However, is it safe to consider that email real?  Because it could be fake, just like the C&D could have been fake.  We have no proof to prove that it wasn't just some guy trying to create a reaction.  So for now, I think we should leave it as a possibility, rather than a  THAT SUM BITCH DONE IT!!!!  However, you can still hate him for pissing us off.

*edit*
Ok, seriously Faust, You're starting to creep me out with your timing xD
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 17, 2009, 05:38:16 pm
I'm just lookin' for trouble apparently.

I can say one thing for sure: the links in the email CasG directed us to (the links to IGN and Gamespot) are real. Someone really did post those threads on April 9. The dude over Kagero who reproduced the email may just be looking for attention though.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 17, 2009, 05:38:59 pm
Whether that person did it or not, it was an asshole thing to do.

He's an ass if he really did send them an e-mail like that.

He's an ass if he pretended to send them an e-mail like that.

It's all assholery, I tell ya!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 17, 2009, 05:39:46 pm
I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 05:48:08 pm
So, somebody was definitley setting us up is what you're saying?  It's just a matter of whether or not he really sent the email.....  Oh what a conundrum this is....  You know ever since I've joined, I've felt like a bad omen.  The C&D was recieved by Zeality the day I joined O_O....  Maybe if I leave the C&D will be removed xD.  Seriously though, is there really anything we can do if that email happens to be real?  I mean, if he's telling the truth, and the C&D has only been issued because they thought we were gonna get profit for it, couldn't we try and use it to strike a deal with SE?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 17, 2009, 05:55:53 pm
It wouldn't surprise me if he did that.... some people in this world are just assholes and get off on acting like trolls.

The creators aren't making any money off of this, contrary to what any e-mails to SE may have said.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 17, 2009, 05:57:16 pm
Also, I read that the makers of Fallout 2 would avoid reading fanfics in order to stay original and avoid inadvertently copying anyone else.

If this game comes out then all any SE people who'd work on a sequel need to do is avoid it.  Besides, the game -is- in English to boot.... and even if they knew English, well, avoiding playing a single fan-made mod isn't going to kill them.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 17, 2009, 06:02:46 pm
Glenn27 and new users who may not be aware, you can always edit your posts with new info using the "modify" button you should be seeing right above your text window. You can even copy the contents, "remove" the post, and then re-post if you need to get people's attention with a new-looking post.

Not that it's a huge concern here or anything; I double and triple all the time, so I'm guilty of that too. Anyway, just a neat little trick.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Yourgingerestfan on May 17, 2009, 06:06:04 pm
That Alienator guy ...he's so mean !
He actually scares me ...especially what he kept on ranting and raving to the Chrono Ark team about watching and sending sly emails all the time to Square .....Im scared of someone I have never met ....sorta reminds me of the boogeyman .
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 17, 2009, 06:11:39 pm
Yes...the bogeyman is real. Also called the "Boogerbear" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugbear_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#Publication_history) in some accounts, he sits on Yoichi Wada's shoulder and whispers about fan projects, hoping they'll get canned.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 06:14:44 pm
we must all be afraid..... very afraid......
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on May 17, 2009, 06:20:45 pm
Ok, so this part we must not let out. We must not let this part be known on game news sites. Because this justifies Square shutting us down. We need to make it look like Square is to blame. So no more as to if it is real or not. We should dismiss this as fake, and continue to turn everyone against Square. Then if we can get some negotiation between Square and us that would be wonderful, our job is to get global video game recognition.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 17, 2009, 06:23:57 pm
Ok, so this part we must not let out. We must not let this part be known on game news sites. Because this justifies Square shutting us down. We need to make it look like Square is to blame. So no more as to if it is real or not. We should dismiss this as fake, and continue to turn everyone against Square. Then if we can get some negotiation between Square and us that would be wonderful, our job is to get global video game recognition.
Actually, the fact that what was stated in that e-mail was massively factually incorrect gives SE less ground for shutting us down.  The best case is that (1) the e-mail is real and (2) we find out who actually sent it and go forward with a libel suit against them.

That said, it'd still be a massive waste of time potentially.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 17, 2009, 06:24:17 pm
So those links in the message... My internet is being shoddy and loading very slowly...

Were they posts that claimed the game was for profit?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 17, 2009, 06:25:34 pm
So those links in the message... My internet is being shoddy and loading very slowly...

Were they posts that claimed the game was for profit?
They claimed that the game was for profit, that Zeality was actually claiming the rights to the copyrights, and at least one other item that was total and complete BS that I can't remember at this time.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 17, 2009, 06:28:30 pm
Ok, so this part we must not let out. We must not let this part be known on game news sites. Because this justifies Square shutting us down. We need to make it look like Square is to blame. So no more as to if it is real or not. We should dismiss this as fake, and continue to turn everyone against Square. Then if we can get some negotiation between Square and us that would be wonderful, our job is to get global video game recognition.

I'm pretty sure that the Compendium and its contributors would rather be seen as an honest group of people rather than a group of people trying to shut down a corporation.  This would probably not help our reputation, in my opinion...

I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.

Once again, though a suit for libel is enticing and might sound nice, if the Compendium or ZeaLitY did something like that, it would be pretty counterproductive to "We're the goodguys" standing that we're going for...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on May 17, 2009, 06:31:42 pm
I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.

Once again, though a suit for libel is enticing and might sound nice, if the Compendium or ZeaLitY did something like that, it would be pretty counterproductive to "We're the goodguys" standing that we're going for...
Actually, it's not - it's more of a "we're the good guys, but we're not going to stand for our good name being smeared by people who think that being an asshole on the Internet is funny" stance, which is what we should be leaning towards anyway.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Happy-Dude on May 17, 2009, 06:32:51 pm
Seriously, I'm a bit mad...

Forum posts as advertisements??

And besides, if Square Enix was trying to make a sequel, and they did peek at CE, can't the CE team reassure them, via contract or something, that no charges will be pressed?

(the best case scenario would be a homage to all fans: hire the team or publish the game under Square Enix's wing... :) ?)

Still, any news? And can we confirm the legitimacy of the email post? This thing needs to be straighten out soon, or else everyone will be fed with lies and left cold and confused...

Is contact with SE established?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 17, 2009, 06:34:50 pm
I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.

Once again, though a suit for libel is enticing and might sound nice, if the Compendium or ZeaLitY did something like that, it would be pretty counterproductive to "We're the goodguys" standing that we're going for...
Actually, it's not - it's more of a "we're the good guys, but we're not going to stand for our good name being smeared by people who think that being an asshole on the Internet is funny" stance, which is what we should be leaning towards anyway.
It depends on if the would-be defendant is some rich guy in the suburbs (maybe?) or just some internet teenager in his mom's basement who is getting back at the cruel, cruel world that he lives in (more likely?).
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Yourgingerestfan on May 17, 2009, 06:43:35 pm
Its probably some wierdo who doesn't want to see a new chrono game as he believes its reputation and theories that he came up with will be ruined  >.>

But why spoil it for everyone ? Crimson Echoes expanded on the original game ...and didn't destroy anything . Hmmm have we ever had someone called Alienator at the compendium before ?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 17, 2009, 06:50:46 pm
Its probably some wierdo who doesn't want to see a new chrono game as he believes its reputation and theories that he came up with will be ruined  >.>

But why spoil it for everyone ? Crimson Echoes expanded on the original game ...and didn't destroy anything . Hmmm have we ever had someone called Alienator at the compendium before ?

I dunno. I kinda recognise it. lemme check

edit: nah, thats alienation
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1837
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Acacia Sgt on May 17, 2009, 06:52:30 pm
Closest thing to Alienator is Alienation, who it seems just registered and that was it.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 17, 2009, 07:10:15 pm
I think there's honestly an easy way to go about this.  I think the upper management (those prominately involved in the creation of the game) just needs to contact Square Enix and flat out explain the situation.  I think a conversation could do a lot of good.  That way the creators of the game should share their version of events, their intentions with the game, and ensure Square that Crimson Echoes is meant as nothing more than a piece of interaction fan fiction that in no way, shape, or form meant to produce income or attention away from Square Enix.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 17, 2009, 07:12:43 pm
Boo, that is pretty much what the CE team hopes to accomplish. However, as I am personally not at liberty to explain further, I, uh, can't explain further.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 17, 2009, 07:16:05 pm
As I'm sure that's exactly what they're doing.

;D
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 07:24:51 pm
Faust I swear to god... learn to log off xD Seriously, you're EVERYWHERE xD
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Happy-Dude on May 17, 2009, 07:26:54 pm
Boo, that is pretty much what the CE team hopes to accomplish. However, as I am personally not at liberty to explain further, I, uh, can't explain further.

Does that mean something IS happening ?!? gahhh I need some newwwss nooowww.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 17, 2009, 07:35:46 pm
Well, it means that "upper management" (I think I'm the only one who calls them that) is working on it.  Which means they're doing something, but we don't know what.  Probably better that way, anyway.  It helps keep our emotions from being a rollercoaster, and it keeps out out of the "professionalism" they're aiming before (because I can see quite a few of us around here acting in a completely unprofessional manner).
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Lord J Esq on May 17, 2009, 08:04:10 pm
Let's not start yet another rumor cascade, folks. All we're doing is working with Square Enix to finalize the details of our compliance with their demands, and grappling with the community outrage at the shutdown of this wonderful project.

It is tantalizing to reveal information when one is "in the know," which is why Faust said he's "not at liberty" to talk about it. Really, however, there's not much to talk about. We can't talk about our conversations with SE because SE doesn't want us to, because they like to think they're in control of the way this little controversy unfolds. Fine, more power to 'em. But if we could talk about those conversations, you'd probably find it pretty boring.

If anything exciting does eventually come up, I'm sure that Agent 12 will post about it here in the News board. But all the juiciest details are public already: The dev team got a C&D, they're complying with it, and therefore we had to shut down Crimson Echoes on the eve of its release.

May your restless imaginations be at peace.  :|
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 08:05:05 pm
xD I think FW logged off just for me.  Anyway, what do you think Zeality's been doing?  I haven't seen him since his thread warning Beta testers about what would happen if they leak CE.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Lord J Esq on May 17, 2009, 08:16:53 pm
ZeaLitY is in Europe on a Springtime of Youth mission.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Romana on May 17, 2009, 08:19:57 pm
Fighting buddhist-themed determination-opposed aliens in another dimension.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 17, 2009, 08:22:40 pm
Interesting.  He's really into that Spring time of youth thing ain't he?  *Off topic post is off topic xP*
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 17, 2009, 08:32:23 pm
Someone really needs to sic' 4Chan on Alienator and have them Kenny Glenn the hell out of that fucker.

Yes, I know 4Chan's not anyone's personal army but I'm sure there are more than enough Chrono Trigger fans to warrant interest in Kenny Glenn'ng the guy.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: DBoruta on May 17, 2009, 08:39:02 pm

No.  Screw SE.  They're not the same company anymore, and the games they make nowadays suck anyway.  I mean, who "makes a whole new game" by adding on to games over 10 years old?  It just ruins the old game.  Yes, I'm talking about CT DS.  I didn't buy it and refuse to now.  Hell, even though I bought a PS3 in part for the sake of getting FFvsXIII this year, I think I'll just boycott the game. Screw SE.

No they are indeed the same company, Square merged with another company witch give them a bunch of new staff, and management.... sadly after all these years they have just lost their touch, and most likely fired most of the old staff and/or they retired after so many years of ass kicking game making...

No, I meant they're not the same company in spirit.  Actually, they physically probably aren't the same people anymore anyway besides Uematsu, who will be working for them until he dies while composing or on stage...  but that's besides the point.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 17, 2009, 08:39:57 pm
Quote
Someone really needs to sic' 4Chan on Alienator and have them Kenny Glenn the hell out of that fucker.

Yes, I know 4Chan's not anyone's personal army but I'm sure there are more than enough Chrono Trigger fans to warrant interest in Kenny Glenn'ng the guy.

Considering all the drama this situation has caused, I think 4chan would probably consider Alienator a conquering hero and would backraid anyone who tried to get them to raid him.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 17, 2009, 08:44:36 pm
Which probably means that if anyone does try to get Alienator raided at 4Chan that it'd probably be Alienator, hoping to cause that to happen.

So, we should just ignore 4Chan and if anyone does that then simply direct 4Chan back at the person doing it.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 17, 2009, 09:00:52 pm
Quote
Let's not start yet another rumor cascade, folks. All we're doing is working with Square Enix to finalize the details of our compliance with their demands, and grappling with the community outrage at the shutdown of this wonderful project.

It is tantalizing to reveal information when one is "in the know," which is why Faust said he's "not at liberty" to talk about it. Really, however, there's not much to talk about. We can't talk about our conversations with SE because SE doesn't want us to, because they like to think they're in control of the way this little controversy unfolds. Fine, more power to 'em. But if we could talk about those conversations, you'd probably find it pretty boring.

If anything exciting does eventually come up, I'm sure that Agent 12 will post about it here in the News board. But all the juiciest details are public already: The dev team got a C&D, they're complying with it, and therefore we had to shut down Crimson Echoes on the eve of its release.

May your restless imaginations be at peace.

If that's the case, any sort of rumors could've been completely killed by the staff here just flat-out denying what was said instead of just editing posts. Because nothing was denied, we're going to hope against hope, and in fact, this post just now has less credibility than what was deleted last night.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Lord J Esq on May 17, 2009, 09:22:21 pm
If that's the case, any sort of rumors could've been completely killed by the staff here just flat-out denying what was said instead of just editing posts. Because nothing was denied, we're going to hope against hope, and in fact, this post just now has less credibility than what was deleted last night.

Less credibility? "In fact," you say? Whose facts are we talking about? Whose authority to judge are we talking about? Yours? Now that'd be an irony.

Hope against hope, if you like, but conspiracy theories won't get you very far in this community.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 17, 2009, 09:37:55 pm
Let's not start yet another rumor cascade, folks. All we're doing is working with Square Enix to finalize the details of our compliance with their demands, and grappling with the community outrage at the shutdown of this wonderful project.

It is tantalizing to reveal information when one is "in the know," which is why Faust said he's "not at liberty" to talk about it. Really, however, there's not much to talk about. We can't talk about our conversations with SE because SE doesn't want us to, because they like to think they're in control of the way this little controversy unfolds. Fine, more power to 'em. But if we could talk about those conversations, you'd probably find it pretty boring.

If anything exciting does eventually come up, I'm sure that Agent 12 will post about it here in the News board. But all the juiciest details are public already: The dev team got a C&D, they're complying with it, and therefore we had to shut down Crimson Echoes on the eve of its release.

May your restless imaginations be at peace.  :|

I'm going to have to say I agree with this. I shant speak or debate about the topic any longer until the whole matter is resolved
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 17, 2009, 09:39:16 pm
Oh. Ohhhhh.... you're right then, okay. Nevermind.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KitsuneSefam on May 18, 2009, 01:39:47 am
 :picardno

Anyone can make a TL;DR version of what happened in those kajillion of pages?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: IAmSerge on May 18, 2009, 01:49:28 am
:picardno

Anyone can make a TL;DR version of what happened in those kajillion of pages?

buncha rumors, people dont really know whats going on, people in discussion with SE aren't at liberty to say, now we just give up talking and wait.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Xshu on May 18, 2009, 07:33:10 pm
Ah, the waiting game sucks. Let's play Hungry Hungry Hippos!

...What?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 18, 2009, 08:16:20 pm
I don't know if this was posted on this site but on Arc Forums this suspicious person posted this email


http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15931

is the topic

Alienat0r is the poster, the Email is under the spoiler tags.

hump that's a disturbing e-mail, but there's no E-Mail address for square in it....
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 18, 2009, 10:08:40 pm
http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15931

hump that's a disturbing e-mail, but there's no E-Mail address for square in it....

The post and email timestamps match though. 
Though it appears that the email wasn't sent from that email address, else the quoted email text would be colored, usually a deep purple...

edit: boo, and "Neil" is misspelled as "Neill". Every letter I've ever seen from SE customer support is signed:
"Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com"

Some examples:
http://www.neocrisis.com/content/view/3734/39/
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72592
http://news.filefront.com/petition-to-remake-final-fantasy-vii-sent-to-square-enix/
http://gbatemp.net/index.php?showtopic=77990&st=540
http://www.finalfantasykingdom.net/beforecrisis.php
etc: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1CHMB_enUS291US308&ei=IgUSSsmhA4Sa9QSm9LmhBg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=neill+square+enix+customer+support&spell=1
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 18, 2009, 11:44:54 pm
Nice observation skillz, kattrali. I think we're 98% sure that email was some kind of attention-grabbing hoax, but that's the first bit of real (if slightly circumstantial) evidence I've seen either way.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Enigma Outlaw on May 19, 2009, 02:46:25 am
While I agree that the e-mail is both disturbing yet at the same time a possible hoax do bear one thing in mind. It would be one thing if the name was misspelled as something such as Neal. However adding a second "l" really isn't that much of a typo. I think we've all typed a letter one too many times at least once in our lives and didn't catch it until after the fact. However considering the timing of everything I'm going to lean towards that being a real e-mail for the very fact that I'd imagine it would take Square Enix a few weeks to investigate. Besides didn't Zeality say he was getting internet stalked about a week before the C&D came out?

One thing I am sure about is this. No matter which way that letter falls that person is an ass. If it's fake then he's an ass for making light of what I feel has been a stressful situation for both the CE team and the fans on the Compendium. If it's real then he's an ass for starting this in the first place and dragging your good names through the mud.

In short he's just an asshole :P
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 19, 2009, 09:05:04 am
In my opinion the timing is too perfect. He probably just created those IGN and GameSpot threads so he could link something back to Square Enix, because they were apparently created right before he sent the email. Why go through all the trouble of matching up dates if it's a fake e-mail? And from the looks of it, that e-mail was sent from a GMail address. I know because I use it myself, and it never shows the e-mail address of the sender if you just open it, unless you click a button to show the details of the sender. For whatever reason he apparently edited the button out, as it should be right next to the green "Square Enix Customer Support". Also, neither the text of the sender nor the receiver is ever in purple in GMail, at least as far as I know.

As for the misspelling, it can happen to Square Enix too. But putting that e-mail side to side with one of my own GMail mails, everything is perfect. The outlining, the lettertype, everything matches. Unless he spent a night making this I don't see how it's fake.

Also, as this e-mail has been sent somewhere in april, I think it's safe to say that whoever this guy is has been after CE and maybe other project for a month. The time gap of one month could be explained by Square Enix investigating the matter.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 19, 2009, 09:45:32 am
Also, neither the text of the sender nor the receiver is ever in purple in GMail, at least as far as I know.

Whenever there's quoted text in an email, I've only ever seen it as purple, unless the content is significantly changed, and then only the signed name is grey (which it also isn't in this case, from the shoddy blotting out, its kinda easy to pick out the color and some of the letters in the name and the address. It looks like gibberish though.)
There's also two artifacts in the upper right rounded corner indicating he probably rotated the star corner, copied it, and erased the star...for reasons unknown to me.

As for the misspelling, it can happen to Square Enix too. But putting that e-mail side to side with one of my own GMail mails, everything is perfect. The outlining, the lettertype, everything matches. Unless he spent a night making this I don't see how it's fake.

Also, as this e-mail has been sent somewhere in april, I think it's safe to say that whoever this guy is has been after CE and maybe other project for a month. The time gap of one month could be explained by Square Enix investigating the matter.

Oh, I'd always figured that Neil isn't a real person...just the customer service pseudonym address or something, so no one would ever be retyping that stuff.

Anyway, there's another possibility, which I'd feel better about. Maybe this person did all this work and it actually isn't the reason for the C&D? Now that would be funny. Mostly because it makes him a loser who thinks he's awesome.

Now I think I'll be quiet since I think I've given away 1. how nerdy I am and 2. what I do when not trolling forums.  :oops:
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 19, 2009, 09:52:37 am
The purple text is only there for me when I open an email that I've sent, and not an email I've received. And how would Neil not be real person. Why write that name if it's not a real person.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 19, 2009, 11:06:32 am
The purple text is only there for me when I open an email that I've sent, and not an email I've received.

Exactly. The second half of the email (the quoted text of the email he supposedly originally sent) should be purple.

And how would Neil not be real person. Why write that name if it's not a real person.

No idea...I just didn't think there was a real person named "Neil" who answers every query gamers have made to customer support over the last few years.  Besides that would probably be a terrible job. Every day you'd write a dozen emails to the effect of, "No, SE is not developing FFVII for the PS3." or "No, FF13 is not coming to North America this year."
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dapifer on May 19, 2009, 12:10:29 pm
From what I read in that topic at Studio Kagero, it seems this person was trying to bring down their fan projects, and because what happened with the C&D and Crimson Echoes and everything, the team at SK has decided to put a stop to all their work with their fan game.

This person seemed to be happy about that, even expresed his satisfaction to see that both CE and the game at Studio Kagero was going to a halt, but for what I can gather, it seems this person was really going after them, the people at Studio Kagero and Chrono Crisis, for whatever reasons s/he had...

Now, how valid this e-mail is, that's another question, and I am affraid I don't know the answer, it could be a fake, but the intentions of this person where clearly bad regarding the fan games, and s/he even expresed his/her ill will towards the modding community and how glad it was that SE took action against it.

In any event, I agree 100% with Enigma, this person is a complete asshole...

I am sad to see this kind of behavior, but I am keeping my hopes up for CE, for all the dreamers, our planet's dream is has not yet ended!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 19, 2009, 12:21:08 pm
The purple text is only there for me when I open an email that I've sent, and not an email I've received.

Exactly. The second half of the email (the quoted text of the email he supposedly originally sent) should be purple.

And how would Neil not be real person. Why write that name if it's not a real person.

No idea...I just didn't think there was a real person named "Neil" who answers every query gamers have made to customer support over the last few years.  Besides that would probably be a terrible job. Every day you'd write a dozen emails to the effect of, "No, SE is not developing FFVII for the PS3." or "No, FF13 is not coming to North America this year."

You're totally right, and you just answered our questions as well. According to my experience with GMail, Square Enix didn't "reply" to the e-mail, they created a whole new e-mail and pasted the e-mail this alien guy sent in it. That explains it really. It's probably their regular way of replying to people.

They don't answer 3/4 of the e-mails they send. I know because I've sent them an email once in a while as well. Also who says Neil is the only person answering the e-mails.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Shee on May 19, 2009, 04:30:45 pm
This is really turned into some detective shit.  All sorts of theories around.  Not to mention the whole "For THose Depressed" thread Zeality wrote, then the C n D, then he dips to Europe.

NOT SAYING IT'S RELATED, but it makes for a damn good story!  All will be cleared when we hear from SE again, assuming that happens.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 19, 2009, 05:27:56 pm
From what I read in that topic at Studio Kagero, it seems this person was trying to bring down their fan projects, and because what happened with the C&D and Crimson Echoes and everything, the team at SK has decided to put a stop to all their work with their fan game.

This person seemed to be happy about that, even expresed his satisfaction to see that both CE and the game at Studio Kagero was going to a halt, but for what I can gather, it seems this person was really going after them, the people at Studio Kagero and Chrono Crisis, for whatever reasons s/he had...

Now, how valid this e-mail is, that's another question, and I am affraid I don't know the answer, it could be a fake, but the intentions of this person where clearly bad regarding the fan games, and s/he even expresed his/her ill will towards the modding community and how glad it was that SE took action against it.

In any event, I agree 100% with Enigma, this person is a complete asshole...

I am sad to see this kind of behavior, but I am keeping my hopes up for CE, for all the dreamers, our planet's dream is has not yet ended!


If what you say is true then the E-mail is most likely real as well, it's starting to sound like someone was out to get the CE team and shut them down from the beginning, but this is only a speculation so don't go quoting me.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KebreI on May 19, 2009, 05:45:27 pm
This is really turned into some detective shit.  All sorts of theories around.  Not to mention the whole "For THose Depressed" thread Zeality wrote, then the C n D, then he dips to Europe.

NOT SAYING IT'S RELATED, but it makes for a damn good story!  All will be cleared when we hear from SE again, assuming that happens.
Z has been talking about that trip for a long time, "For Those Depressed" thread was in response to the C&D. All makes since to me.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 19, 2009, 06:16:36 pm
I've taken a bold step and e-mail SE....*waits ten seconds* this is killin' Mikey!

But really I did...I wonder if I e-mailed the right address. It doesn't matter, they wil most certainly ignore me either way.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Vehek on May 19, 2009, 09:31:22 pm
The email address on Alienat0r's email from SE isn't shown. Is there anything to stop someone from saying their name is "Square Enix Customer Support"?
Also, it doesn't actually say when the email was received.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 19, 2009, 09:50:26 pm
There isn't, but whether or not their e-mail address is on there, it doesn't increase or reduce the chance of it being a fake. Besides, if it's real he probably edited it out like he did with some other stuff.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 19, 2009, 10:10:58 pm
Interesting new development there, the two links he posted (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157 and http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0) do correspond to the time of that email possibly being sent--both the gamespot and ign posts were at the same time.

What a tool.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 19, 2009, 11:10:02 pm
Guys um I got a....response.. (Mind you I use Yahoo so the set up is diffrent.)

---

Thank you for contacting SQUARE ENIX Customer Support,

We appreciate your feedback. We apologize that the announcement you are referring to do not meet your expectations. Your information will be forwarded to my superiors. We do cherish the support and opinion from our customers and look forward to hearing your remarks regarding our upcoming games.

Thanks,
Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com

---
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KitsuneSefam on May 19, 2009, 11:20:35 pm
We appreciate your feedback. We apologize that the announcement you are referring to do not meet your expectations. Your information will be forwarded to my superiors. We do cherish the support and opinion from our customers and look forward to hearing your remarks regarding our upcoming games.

Thanks,
Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com

---

What? Either a bot or he didn't read the e-mail.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 19, 2009, 11:23:51 pm
Interesting new development there, the two links he posted (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157 and http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0) do correspond to the time of that email possibly being sent--both the gamespot and ign posts were at the same time.

What a tool.

You forgot to add that the user that posted the comments only had 1 post on each site:

http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0

Hellspawns
collection | wishlist
Posts: 1
Registered: Apr '09

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157

Hellspawns
 
Level 1
Player
Posts: 1
------------------

and on one site it show's his joined date witch was only last month. It's almost as if he/she made that account just to mislead or so that he would have prof to go with his E-Mail assuming that it was indeed the same person.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 19, 2009, 11:35:42 pm
We appreciate your feedback. We apologize that the announcement you are referring to do not meet your expectations. Your information will be forwarded to my superiors. We do cherish the support and opinion from our customers and look forward to hearing your remarks regarding our upcoming games.

Thanks,
Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com

---

What? Either a bot or he didn't read the e-mail.

It's nice that you highlight the parts that make him sound bad. Actully it kinda fit's into the message I sent. But I am much to embarresed to show anyone so I cut it out. Only Agent 12 will see it since I PM'd it to him.
I personally found it rather polite considering it took only a few hours (actully about 9)
See below for where you can find the e-mail adress and try sending a polite e-mail like I did.
http://www.square-enix.com/na/support/live/

He mentioned other games because I mentioned them (trying to be poilte) saying I was a fan of their games (which isn't really a lie)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 19, 2009, 11:44:16 pm
You forgot to add that the user that posted the comments only had 1 post on each site:

http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0

Hellspawns
collection | wishlist
Posts: 1
Registered: Apr '09

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157

Hellspawns
 
Level 1
Player
Posts: 1
------------------

and on one site it show's his joined date witch was only last month. It's almost as if he/she made that account just to mislead or so that he would have prof to go with his E-Mail assuming that it was indeed the same person.
Righto, I was kinda hinting at that. In fact, I should have just blatantly said that these accounts were created solely for those messages and that those messages were created solely for Alienat0r's supposed email. Although the veracity of the email is still ambiguous, it puts many things in perspective. He lied outright about the team charging for this product, which may have caused SE to send the C&D in the first place.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: desrever on May 20, 2009, 12:29:56 am
And here I thought SE were just being a-holes. I'll show that dumb*** alienator...
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 20, 2009, 12:43:10 am
And here I thought SE were just being a-holes. I'll show that dumb*** alienator...

See what did I say before... and everyone was ready burn them at the stake for being evil demons. I knew there was a reason, we need to see things from a diffrent light. They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KebreI on May 20, 2009, 12:48:56 am
And here I thought SE were just being a-holes. I'll show that dumb*** alienator...

See what did I say before... and everyone was ready burn them at the stake for being evil demons. I knew there was a reason, we need to see things from a diffrent light. They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!
That's actually very likely, I just read the thread at Crisis arkwhatever, plus I've seen the others before. After piecing a few things together it does seem like a legitimate claim.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 20, 2009, 12:50:40 am
Here's the thing, though. If, and ONLY if Alienator is solely responsible for this whole situation, he's obviously doing it to be a giant asshole and a troll. In that case, he WANTS people to flame him, because that's what trolls do.

The ONLY people who could deal with Alienator over the internet in such a way that he would not enjoy it is /b/ at 4chan. They could ruin/severely disrupt his life, and though he might be enough of a masochistic troll that he'd enjoy the attention for a while, eventually he'd probably be disrupted enough to regret what he did.

The thing is, 4chan lives off of trolling and internet drama. So even if we appealed to 4chan to raid Alienator, they might just regard him as a conquering hero. Instead of getting a raid, he might get a PArade from 4chan.

This is all assuming he's actually responsible for all this.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 20, 2009, 12:54:28 am
Here's the thing, though. If, and ONLY if Alienator is solely responsible for this whole situation, he's obviously doing it to be a giant asshole and a troll. In that case, he WANTS people to flame him, because that's what trolls do.

The ONLY people who could deal with Alienator over the internet in such a way that he would not enjoy it is /b/ at 4chan. They could ruin/severely disrupt his life, and though he might be enough of a masochistic troll that he'd enjoy the attention for a while, eventually he'd probably be disrupted enough to regret what he did.

The thing is, 4chan lives off of trolling and internet drama. So even if we appealed to 4chan to raid Alienator, they might just regard him as a conquering hero. Instead of getting a raid, he might get a PArade from 4chan.

This is all assuming he's actually responsible for all this.

I say the best way to handle this is infact to just work on getting CE back on track and ignoreing that idiot. Who care about a troll they only get off on you paying them mind anyway.
COME ONE PEOPLE LET'S WORK ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 20, 2009, 01:07:26 am
I think the more I look at this the more I think that E-Mail was in fact real, but there is also noway of confirming that the E-Mail is indeed real in less we hear it from someone in SE or someone in contact with them.

Here's the thing, though. If, and ONLY if Alienator is solely responsible for this whole situation, he's obviously doing it to be a giant asshole and a troll. In that case, he WANTS people to flame him, because that's what trolls do.

The ONLY people who could deal with Alienator over the internet in such a way that he would not enjoy it is /b/ at 4chan. They could ruin/severely disrupt his life, and though he might be enough of a masochistic troll that he'd enjoy the attention for a while, eventually he'd probably be disrupted enough to regret what he did.

The thing is, 4chan lives off of trolling and internet drama. So even if we appealed to 4chan to raid Alienator, they might just regard him as a conquering hero. Instead of getting a raid, he might get a PArade from 4chan.

This is all assuming he's actually responsible for all this.

I say the best way to handle this is infact to just work on getting CE back on track and ignoreing that idiot. Who care about a troll they only get off on you paying them mind anyway.
COME ONE PEOPLE LET'S WORK ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS!

I agree he started trouble to either get back at someone or to just start trouble, either way he's not worth the effort the main thing is to "work on getting CE back on track" like the overlord said.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KebreI on May 20, 2009, 01:09:26 am
No, do not go all vigilante. Also we can't work on CE because regardless that they had misinformation SE still has made there stance. Agent12 should just take note of this and use it to bolster his own argument.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 20, 2009, 01:13:04 am
That may be but you never know they may acknowledge the misinformation and give the go ahead but the odds in that are low at best.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 20, 2009, 01:16:30 am
You think Square might soften their stance in such a way that they can still be seen to be defending their IP and still let people play the game? Like saying "you can't officially work on this or release it, but we won't sue you if it leaks", that type of thing?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 20, 2009, 01:20:46 am
.... Maybe if you bothered to read my post, I said they might give the go ahead witch means a lift on the C&D and I also said the odds are low at best so no I don't think they will, but being optimistic about things never hurts.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Acacia Sgt on May 20, 2009, 01:22:56 am
As long as the probability is above 0...

Well, you can't give up hope.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 20, 2009, 01:24:39 am
We can only hope they lift the C&D untill then we need to keep the subject alive.
.... Maybe if you bothered to read my post, I said they might give the go ahead witch means a lift on the C&D and I also said the odds are low at best so no I don't think they will, but being optimistic about things never hurts.
I think they where twisting the statement about "working on" what's important...by that I met conviniceing them to change their minds not working on the game.
As long as the probability is above 0...

Well, you can't give up hope.
Exactly! YEAH!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on May 20, 2009, 01:24:49 am
I think Square covertly making some kind of agreement not to sue if it leaks is the best-case scenario for both sides (outside of making CE some kind of official Wiiware release which is not going to happen). The team can release the game (definitely not in the way they'd have liked to do it, but still), and Square can claim that they protected their IP and that some rogue hacker torrented the game, and that instead of suing the CE team they'll just toss around some threats to sue anyone distributing the torrent.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 20, 2009, 01:35:48 am

I think they where twisting the statement about "working on" what's important...by that I met conviniceing them to change their minds not working on the game.

I know what you meant and I agreed :P
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: TheMage on May 20, 2009, 03:00:46 am
I am very disturbed by this AlienatOr and he's claimed he's not alone:


(from Kagero Studios)

*****

Alienat0r  Posted: May 17, 2009 12:50 pm   


Newbie


Group: Banned
Posts: 5
Member No.: 157
Joined: May 16, 2009

 How very perceptive of you, Timekitten. But also how terribly naive of you to confuse me with Him.

Originally, he was going for Crisis. It pleasured us greatly when Crisis died, but frustration came again when Lena decided to start off on her own. However, CE was also nearing completion and becoming a problem. I went through the slight trouble of sending a couple of e-mails to Square Enix, filling them up with a small lie here and there to tempt them. I never imagined they would really make a move, though. But what was far greater was the shock that arrived here and the newly assembled Ark team deciding to drop the Chrono name. Truly, things have worked out far better then we could have imagined.

And as such, both Crisis and Ark have finally come to an end. You have been a fine amusement to everyone, and it pleasures me greatly so see this happen.

Now, press on with your, what was it, "Praxis"? Or was it Devil Theory?

I sincerely hope you won't forgive me.

Bye-bye. 



***

...I'm a bit worried. I can't believe that e-mail he wrote- even if the e-mail is fake he's still an Arse for screwing with us. (though I think its real)


If the e-mail is real it does explain a few things. . .I did think it was odd that in the cease and desist letter it stated: "We understand you claim a copyright to CT:CE"


Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 20, 2009, 03:44:48 am
Man, F that guy.  Somebody needs to cyberstalk HIM and get all his personal information and use it against him.


Anyway, to SE, please don't judge the modding group itself by us members.  Some of us are more fanatical and fanboyish than others but at the end of the day, just judge the group for what it is and the members of it are, not by us fanboys on the boards.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Enigma Outlaw on May 20, 2009, 04:01:40 am
Man now I'm really pissed. Everything about this is now coming together in such a way that I personally see almost no way of this being fake. To quote a great scene from Spaceballs:

Dark Helmet-Who is he?
Colonel Sandurz-He's an Asshole sir.
Dark Helmet-I know that but what's his name?
Colonel Sandurz-That is his name sir! Major Asshole.

I too am almost tempted to get 4Chan in on this but as we all know they thrive on chaos and that has nearly as much potential for blowing up in our face as it does for making his internet live hell. In any event I want to hear Faust's (or anyone else close to the project) thoughts on this matter in light of the new info. Plain and simple this was a set up. Granted at the end of the day the chances are not in our favor for the release of CE but one would think in light of this that at the very least presenting this info to Square Enix might get them off the Compendium's back and keep them from doing further legal action.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 20, 2009, 04:18:39 am
I would not go to 4Chan- revenge against this person can wait.  Besides that "they are not your personal army" as 4Chan likes to say, you can't really control 4Chan and any attempts to do so would likely backfire.  Best to leave them be at the moment.

But forget that asshole for now, we have more important things to worry about.

Right now the creators need to properly explain things to SE.

Hopefully, now that this asshole has openly admitted what he has done- successfully trolling and lying to SE and creating this mess- perhaps SE would be willing to back down given that they acted in haste based off of deliberate misinformation by someone seeking to cause chaos. 

Surely, since their cease and desist was based off of information which has been shown to be deliberately untrue to rile them up, easing up on things would be more tenable for SE.  It wouldn't be seen so much as a 180 as it would be a reassessment of the situation.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KebreI on May 20, 2009, 04:24:46 am
Everything can be connected if you look hard enough, don't go trying to find a scapegoat people.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 20, 2009, 05:26:13 am
Man now I'm really pissed. Everything about this is now coming together in such a way that I personally see almost no way of this being fake. To quote a great scene from Spaceballs:

Dark Helmet-Who is he?
Colonel Sandurz-He's an Asshole sir.
Dark Helmet-I know that but what's his name?
Colonel Sandurz-That is his name sir! Major Asshole.

I too am almost tempted to get 4Chan in on this but as we all know they thrive on chaos and that has nearly as much potential for blowing up in our face as it does for making his internet live hell. In any event I want to hear Faust's (or anyone else close to the project) thoughts on this matter in light of the new info. Plain and simple this was a set up. Granted at the end of the day the chances are not in our favor for the release of CE but one would think in light of this that at the very least presenting this info to Square Enix might get them off the Compendium's back and keep them from doing further legal action.

I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Enigma Outlaw on May 20, 2009, 05:59:28 am
I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?

To keep it short let's just say 4Chan is famous for more than lulz, cat pics and Rick Rolling. From my understanding they've also got a rep for having a fair share of hackers/assholes and have been known to really make life hell for people they deem deserving. Some of the pranks they claim to have pulled can range from harmless (Rick Rolling is said to have started there) to downright mean and damaging (such as this C&D).

As I said before it's tempting but they like chaos. Either they would see him as a huge jerk or a hero. Plus they don't like to be anyone's "army" for revenge. If 4Chan ever did get wind of this and started something then there's no telling what could happen. Dealing with them is like opening Pandora's Box. Something good may or may not come out of it but in the end someone is still getting fucked.

Once again it's tempting but it's far from worth it :-/
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 20, 2009, 11:27:04 am
How many times must I repeat this, ignore the guy. He and whoever he was with are not worth our time. We must look towards the future, but revenge keeps us grounded in the past.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: KebreI on May 20, 2009, 12:41:15 pm
I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?

To keep it short let's just say 4Chan is famous for more than lulz, cat pics and Rick Rolling. From my understanding they've also got a rep for having a fair share of hackers/assholes and have been known to really make life hell for people they deem deserving. Some of the pranks they claim to have pulled can range from harmless (Rick Rolling is said to have started there) to downright mean and damaging (such as this C&D).

As I said before it's tempting but they like chaos. Either they would see him as a huge jerk or a hero. Plus they don't like to be anyone's "army" for revenge. If 4Chan ever did get wind of this and started something then there's no telling what could happen. Dealing with them is like opening Pandora's Box. Something good may or may not come out of it but in the end someone is still getting fucked.

Once again it's tempting but it's far from worth it :-/
You give them too much credit, what they do isn't nearly as impressive as you think.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 20, 2009, 01:02:01 pm
As nice as it would be to see this guy burned, the reason I'm interested in his alleged email, is cause it intentionally misinformed SE. I mean, if Faust, Agent12, Zeality, or whoever let's them know that this email was grounded in falsehood (assuming SE really did receive such an email), then perhaps they can use it as a bargaining tool.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 20, 2009, 01:30:47 pm
Anyone up for Wheel of Fortune? This was all I could glean, sadly enough. Looks like nonsense to me. The again, "inbox" is written in Dutch, though it seems odd to be the only piece of gmail gui not erased.

(http://sites.google.com/site/dslibraryproject/Home/email.png)

It doesn't seem worth it to give this guy any more attention, but some of this stuff is kinda fun. (Btw, the 'T--gg--' word can't be Trigger, there's no 'i' in there.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Seph on May 20, 2009, 05:10:52 pm
I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?

To keep it short let's just say 4Chan is famous for more than lulz, cat pics and Rick Rolling. From my understanding they've also got a rep for having a fair share of hackers/assholes and have been known to really make life hell for people they deem deserving. Some of the pranks they claim to have pulled can range from harmless (Rick Rolling is said to have started there) to downright mean and damaging (such as this C&D).

As I said before it's tempting but they like chaos. Either they would see him as a huge jerk or a hero. Plus they don't like to be anyone's "army" for revenge. If 4Chan ever did get wind of this and started something then there's no telling what could happen. Dealing with them is like opening Pandora's Box. Something good may or may not come out of it but in the end someone is still getting fucked.

Once again it's tempting but it's far from worth it :-/

Nothing good can ever come from opening Pandora's box only bad things, getting the 4Chan involved will bring nothing but more trouble, as I said before he's not worth the effort just leave him be and let those in contact with SE deal with this appropriately.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: blarg on May 20, 2009, 07:31:55 pm
Quote
They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!

I can think of one similar gaming example where the wheels of business were reversed

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html) It's number 4 on the page. Nintendo apologized for mistakingly C&Ding a porn site for mentioning zelda. Maybe a bit of hope. Although this is different square could be sending you free games in the end!

Also you should definitely let Lowtax from something awful do the the negotiations with Square he has a good record:P http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/ (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/)  Maybe he'll be good inspiration reading that stuff is more fun the hungry hungry hippos.  :D



Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dapifer on May 20, 2009, 07:47:32 pm
Wait, wait...

Did you say more fun than Hungry Hungry Hippos? With all do respect, you sir, are talking crazy
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on May 20, 2009, 07:54:54 pm
Does anyone know if Attack of the show mentioned us or not?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Sara on May 21, 2009, 01:52:15 am
It doesn't seem worth it to give this guy any more attention, but some of this stuff is kinda fun. (Btw, the 'T--gg--' word can't be Trigger, there's no 'i' in there.
I think it says B. Von Taggart or B. Van Taggart or similar.
That would also correspond with the language, I think.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Glenn27 on May 21, 2009, 06:58:34 pm
Also, 4Chan are creepy all-around assholes.

http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/05/4chan-ebaumsworld-carpet-bombing-youtube-with-porn-videos.ars


It's a gathering ground for people who like to randomly bully people for "lul'z."  Rarely do they operate out of goodness and kindness.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 21, 2009, 08:44:58 pm
I think it says B. Von Taggart or B. Van Taggart or similar.
That would also correspond with the language, I think.

Makes sense! Though I realized it should be a 'B' and not a T (stupid single pixel differences  :picardno).  "Voor" fits in the remaining space perfectly.

Bruggeman, Bruggmann, Bruggmans, Burggeman, Burggmann... Burggraeve? That's I'll I've got.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 21, 2009, 08:58:27 pm
This is really just guessing as far as I can see. Most of that stuff is completely blacked out, I don't even see how you got the letters you already have. I don't think there's much point in trying to get his name as we probably wouldn't know him anyway, and it's too hard to say for sure.

But if it makes you happy I guess
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on May 21, 2009, 09:21:02 pm
The guys over at Kagero Studios probably have [one of] his email(s). I don't know if it'd violate their terms of service to let us know, but perhaps you can get it from them. However, knowing his email and his name would come in handy, since he may have mislead SE into serving the C&D and receiving a ton of bad press. I don't know if there are an legal repercussions that SE could take, but who knows.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark Serge on May 21, 2009, 09:25:21 pm
The guy who posted it over there was some dude called alienator or whatever who just registered. Maybe an alt account, and I don't think he'd use his private email for something like that.

But you're right, if we can find out his real email we can at least bomb him with spam mails
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 21, 2009, 09:58:26 pm
It was all just for fun; I have to something while waiting. The top and bottom rows of the blotted out areas aren't hidden, and its easy to decipher letters from them.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: V_Translanka on May 25, 2009, 12:09:12 am
When in doubt, remember these sage words from Ramsus...

Also, for the newer members, this isn't 4chan. Have fun if you want, but don't be asses...

;)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kando on May 25, 2009, 01:01:18 am
Quote
They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!

I can think of one similar gaming example where the wheels of business were reversed

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html) It's number 4 on the page. Nintendo apologized for mistakingly C&Ding a porn site for mentioning zelda. Maybe a bit of hope. Although this is different square could be sending you free games in the end!

Also you should definitely let Lowtax from something awful do the the negotiations with Square he has a good record:P http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/ (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/)  Maybe he'll be good inspiration reading that stuff is more fun the hungry hungry hippos.  :D





hmmmm...that gave me hope =)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: HadesKane on May 27, 2009, 09:52:21 pm
This thread (starting with about page 16) is a lot more interesting now that we know that Dark Serge was behind it all, and to see his responses into everything offers a bit of clarity, including his insistence that the "guess" of his last name wasn't valid.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kattrali on May 27, 2009, 10:12:02 pm
He was really starting to creep me out. And I didn't even have a suspicion it was him until the very end.  I still want to know why, but I don't care to spend any more energy trying to know.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: OverlordMikey on May 27, 2009, 10:37:25 pm
He was really starting to creep me out. And I didn't even have a suspicion it was him until the very end.  I still want to know why, but I don't care to spend any more energy trying to know.

I was suspicious of Dark Serge in the beginning (I don't think I said anything about it. I didn't wanna come off as paranoid) but he sidetracked my suspicious and I assumed I was being paranoid. THE ONE TIME I DO THAT AND BANG I was right…..figures huh. On the other hand I has a pretty good ability to judge how bad a movie is gonna be.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: jodas765 on May 28, 2009, 12:09:13 am
I'm somewhat new to this forum, but I have had an idea about this for awhile. Is it possible that due to the cease and desist letter from the chrono trigger restoration project and chrono trigger resurrection that Dark serge or whoever it might be doctored up this letter? I have done something like forging certificates and stuff like that. It isn't that hard and you can make it look real as long as you have the passion to do it. You only need something like gimp or even paint. Create a text box and change the font to look exactly like the rest of the paper and you have yourself a doctored letter that is really convincing.

Before you assume anything, when I say forge I don't mean big things like checks or something like that. I'm just throwing out the possibility that this might be the one way of looking at the cease and desist letter. It might have been said before, but what would really help is if you had a copy of the cease and desist letters from the old projects that received one.

If you haven't done so already, try this out. Plus don't slaughter the project and erase it from existence. That wouldn't be cool. Expecially if this entire thing turned out to be a hoax. Even if it is real. I would still keep a copy for myself. Letting hard work on something like this go to waste and completely deleting it isn't the answer, and you would regret it later. Just my two cents. .... I still am looking forward to this game. Don't erase it from existence...Keep the dream alive. Thanks for your hardwork. :)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mikisho on May 28, 2009, 12:18:40 am
Square has stated it's real.  Serge didn't forge it.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on May 28, 2009, 12:22:13 am
The clincher is that several Compendium members have called SE to confirm. All we have right now is just our word and a very poorly-worded C&D order. We fully realize that might not be enough a lot of skeptics, so that's part of the drive to get the video walkthrough released. If everyone sees the full game from beginning to end in late beta phase, hopefully the conspiracy theories will start to unravel.
Title: But The Future Refused To Change...
Post by: Ctfan on October 15, 2009, 03:39:45 am
READ FIRST: Ok so, let me start by saying...I read most of this forum already, I know most of the current situation (But not all of it) from these posts. I guess this would be some sort of an intro post for me to the forums...yay :)

Second: Reading the first little bit and hearing about the 12 yr old's giving advice and middle aged people sitting in their basements...I assure you I'm not 12. More like 20. I will not be pulling a hate post saying "OMG SQUARE ENIX IS GAY". I've supported them for years, buying their products. Side note being I hate their decisions on games, and this is one of them. They royally messed up Final Fantasy, and they're about to do the same with Chrono Trigger. As for the basement part, it's like 1:44 AM here, I decided I'd post some of my thoughts on this matter. Although, people really need to stop pulling the legality's into this matter, because it could get a lot of people in trouble.

Ok so, lets start on the post.

When I found out about Chrono Trigger, I was about 5 or 6 years old. Man, did I ever think it was such an awesome game. My Grandmother (Yeah, believe it or not back in the day) had this game, and I'd BEG her constantly to let me borrow the game. Whenever I could borrow the game off of her, I would. A few of my cousins on that side of the family would have save files. I don't know why but I would constantly delete them (because you could only hold 3 :() and I liked to save certain portions of the game. I didn't know much at the time, so I really sucked at it. As time went on however, I progressed further and further and learned as much as I possibly could about the game from my family members that would play it. I don't know if this hit any of you, but when I discovered Zeal for the first time, I was literally blown away by its music, its atmosphere, and its tragic end. I was around 7 when I finally got around to getting that far (Yeah, Turtles in Time really ate up my time, that and a Sony Playstation.) One of the most saddest days of my life would of been when my Grandmother sold the game, and I lost all chances of playing that game when I could. This game took up most of my childhood, not being able to play it took it up a lot more.

When I heard the news, I IMMEDIATELY sprung into action, and went to the local rental store. My god, was that game ever rented out a lot. The few chances I HAD to rent it, I did. I remember racking up a few bills on my Dad's account there because I forgot to bring it back, 10 days late. But, this further fueled my sadness when the rental store moved onto only Playstation games in or around 1998ish. Yeah, I was forced to move onto the Playstation's crappy games. But what I really wanted, was that copy of Chrono Trigger.

Me as a kid then was just constantly talking about the game. Asking people if they played it, knew what it was, knew how far they got and how far I got, had some discussions...But sadly, not a lot of people played it. Until around early 2001.

See, I used to bug my Dad to get me a copy of that Official Playstation Magazine. I loved all the demos it had in there and such. By now, FF7 has worked its way onto my computer, and I was constantly playing that. Why? Because, it reminded me of Chrono Trigger. Same with Final Fantasy 6 on the Playstation. I didn't know much about gaming companies and stuff, but I knew the connection it had after a while. One day, I got a magazine with the cover saying that they were going to re-release Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 4 on the Playstation! Man, the joy I felt was amazing. I read the article at least 4 times a week on the bus just eying down the pictures and the details of it. Finally! My VERY own copy of Chrono Trigger! I was SO excited, I told EVERYONE that I knew.

I remember working where I could around the house to scrounge up money for the game. I BEGGED my Mom for some money to get it, and I finally did. You should of seen how FAST I ran to the store down the street (Zellers) to go and buy this game. But little did I know...

See, this is where things started to get messed up.

You all must of played it for the PS1, correct? Man, they (Sorry for swearing but...) FUCKED up the port SO badly. But I was 11 going on 12. I really didn't care THAT much. All I cared about is that I had my own copy, and I could play it as much as I wanted to! I loved the new features. Until then, I didn't even know they had that many endings. I collected as much as I could, and played the crap out of it.

As time grew on, Middle and High School kicked in...and I began to loose interest. Well, seeing as how they only released Chrono Cross as "somewhat" of a sequel to Chrono Trigger, it really didn't expand much on the story in my mind at the time. All I cared about was..."What happened to Magus? What became of the group...did they actually die?" Yeah, I was really confused and wanted answers, and I went seeking for them.

When I was 14, I joined IRC. This is where I got "Ctfan" from, it just kinda stuck. I found a site that had a devoted fan base to fan fiction and the like about Chrono Trigger, and they had an IRC channel. So, I promptly joined. I remember my FIRST night on there was probably about a good 6-7 hours after school just talking to people about how much of a fan I was, and to know that there were other people out there like me. At the time I didn't have the proper skills to make my own website and such (yeah, I didn't know anything, really.) Looking back on it, the website looks like crap but...it was there. People just expressed their feelings and encouraged others to do the same. I was hooked. A year or two passed, and the people in the channel lost interest, and I moved on.

Around this time, I was 16. I personally lost interest in the series myself, but I never forgot about it. I focused on my High Schooling to become a better student to "try" my best to make my mark on the gaming industry. There is a LOT more of games I could name off of the top of my head that Squaresoft made, not just Chrono Trigger. But see the thing was, it was like they dropped all interest in Chrono Trigger and moved onto "Final Fantasy". Don't get me wrong, I <3 my Final Fantasy, but as I stated before, they just messed it up in later years. I know some people will disagree with me, but this is not a general opinion, just my own.

So fast forwarding into my final year of High School. Chrono Trigger was still fresh on my mind (as I recently played it a few times when I decided to unshelf my Playstation for a while.) Man, the excitement just came back to me. It was like playing the story from a fresh new perspective. I learned a lot more then I would of when I was younger. My knowledge finally reached it's peak. I wanted a new Chrono sequel, and I wanted it then.

I heard about the Compendium from reading some stuff on Wikipedia. Knowing of a fan base THIS large made me feel right at home. Reading updates on some of the Chrono Trigger Pre-Release WAS pretty much my daily reading material. Lots of people shared my views (from what I read) about making another Chrono Trigger sequel. This is when I found out about CE. Man, did that ever seem like a cool concept. Fans were actually taking action into their own hands. I didn't read much about it, because I recently heard at the time about Chrono Resurrection, and that having a C&D order. Granted, this made me want to think that Square was toiling away at a new re-release to the Chrono series. And, they finally took action.

About 2 summers ago, after finishing my first year of College, my friend linked me to a site with the suspected release of Chrono Trigger DS. And guess what, it was true! I REALLY was jumping for joy. The NEXT day I went out and tried to make a pre-order for the game, but they haven't even heard of it yet they told me. I was a bit angry, and gave a bit of a lecture. Then I left. After about a few weeks, it finally got announced to them, and I made my pre-order...4 MONTHS in advance. Yes, I was that excited for the game. I was excited that Square Enix took action...adding all the new content with the new feel with stylus controls and new dungeons. I was sold. Eventually when it came out, I bought it. I remember I grew a beard and REFUSED to shave it until I beat the game. Took me about a week (what with work and school), but I finally did. I felt triumphant! This is when I noticed the comparisons somewhat to the CT PS port, and this one was just amazing. It ACTUALLY gave me a lot of replay value, and I expected none the less from a Chrono game.

I know to some of you this might sound like a bunch of senseless garbage, but it's MY personal experience with Chrono Trigger. The excitement of a game that made me adore it for going on 15 years now. I know that those letters to Square Enix to show your support for a game rarely get read if any (Not like for games that Capcom made). Capcom listens to their fans, Square-Enix on the other hand...doesn't (Most of the time). If its non-Final Fantasy, I bet you your comments are probably ignored. I don't know because I never actually tried to send an email to show my respect for CT, but I heard stories over forums. They go no where.

I just recently learned of the C&D for CE. Like I said in the beginning, I won't get into legal talk or anything to keep people from getting in trouble but...Here's where the hate comes out.

Square Enix, you as a company haven't listened to requests as much as you should be. Yes, I know you released a CT DS port, but still, that's not enough. What's the damn hold up here?! Excuse me if I quote Wikipedia here.

(In the first May Famitsu of 2009, Chrono Trigger placed 14th out of 50 in a vote of most-wanted sequels by the magazine's readers. At E3 2009, SE Senior Vice President Shinji Hashimoto remarked, "If people want a sequel, they should buy more!")

Yeah, see that's total garbage. I think since Enix leeched onto Squaresoft, they started screwing with the stuff we love the most. Squaresoft (I don't use the Enix part too much, because I don't think Enix should be getting any type of success at all, just because they're latched with Squaresoft.) needs to listen to our needs. Obviously they know were out there (The fans). They KNOW we want a sequel or at least a bridge between CT and CC. YEAH, LETS BUY MORE AND SUPPORT THEM SO THEY GET MORE MONEY AND MAKE OTHER GAMES NOT RELATED TO THE CHRONO SERIES. I think they like messing with us. Yeah, line their pockets and don't produce another game for us. I bet CT DS did well in sales...and with CE getting noticed by them...they know we want it, and we would pay for it. So Square...Enix see us as a community...like Capcom does with the Mega Man, and take that into consideration on how well Mega Man 9 sold...and give us another Chrono game already! We will support you in purchases, as will many more. Just don't linger on it for too long. By personal experience, people will be losing interest, and fast. Not a very good marketing move in my opinion, but once again, thats just an opinion. So don't throw a hissy fit my way saying on how I'm throwing out slander to your company. I purchase the games you make, I love Final Fantasy, and you are the guys that MADE Chrono Trigger. I just wanted to give an opinion that wasn't so..."Go f*** yourself, Square Enix". You did WONDERS with FF4 The After Years, why can't you do the same with Chrono?

I hope that this C&D was a point in the direction of having another game made for the Chrono franchise (as I figured the C&D on Chrono Ressurection was to lead up to CT DS.) I would be saddened if this wasn't. If Chrono Trigger taught me, as a fan anything...it would be that there still is that one "Ray of shining hope" that will change things as we know it for the better. I got that inspiration from your game SE, live up to your words.

As for me? Sorry about my ramblings. If Square Enix really IS trolling these forums, it must be the only place that my voice can really be heard then being thrown out by them. I want them to know that I AM a loyal fan, and this game was very influential part of my life.

I'm currently in College (my final year) to become a Graphic Designer with some Animation (2d/3d)/Web Design under my belt. I finally believe that I am ready to contribute to the Chrono community, and that I shall. I hope my designs and the such that I would make in my free time (once I get more well known) will inspire other people to become fans, and to inspire Square Enix to make another game. It's a long shot, but I'm committed to doing it, as you as a fan base have been doing for so many years.

Thank you very much for your time, everyone.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 15, 2009, 02:35:45 pm
Ctfan, we look forward to seeing some of your graphic design talent!

As for the rambling, jeez, any of us could probably whip up something like that. Chrono has affected our lives to a huge degree. I might not have developed any creative writing skills had it not been for Chrono sparking my imagination and making me write horrid fanfics when I was 11.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on October 15, 2009, 09:24:09 pm
Welcome!  Yeah, Chrono was a piece of personal development for me, too!  That's what makes us kin, I guess!

LONG LIVE THE CHRONO TRIGGER.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 16, 2009, 02:36:02 pm

I've been doing my research (like I always do when it comes to hot-button issues), and I found out...

You guys got slammed with the wrong letter.   :shock:

It is true that ROM modification is illegal (because the ROM itself is copyrighted), and it's also true that Chrono Trigger is the intellectual property of Squeenix.

However...

Your actions amounted not to copyright infringement, but... a derivative work.

In the United States, the Copyright Act defines "derivative work" in 17 U.S.C. § 101:

A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more pre-existing works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.

See this link on how you could get away with "fair use" of a derivative work because, according to Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., "...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work)

This is just how I interpreted it.  What says you?



Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 16, 2009, 03:09:18 pm
I agree that Lewis Galoob Toys provides a grounds on which to argue that fans can back up and mod their games, and since the Game Genie was distributed, it might also be grounds on which to argue that distribution of mods in patch form is permissable.

It's probably too late for Crimson Echoes since the C&D has already been issued, but fan project teams would probably do well to reference Lewis Galoob Toys vs. Nintendo in their readmes from this point forward. At least it would complicate the IP holder's potential claim of "willful" copyright infringement to some degree.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 16, 2009, 03:31:50 pm

Yeah.  To me, the term "intellectual property" is a ridiculous concept to perpetuate within U.S. law.

Richard Stallman (creator of the GNU project)

"...it systematically distorts and confuses these issues, and its use was and is promoted by those who gain from this confusion... it operates as a catch-all to lump together disparate laws [which] originated separately, evolved differently, cover different activities, have different rules, and raise different public policy issues."

If such a thing didn't exist, CE wouldn't be where it is right now.  It's ridiculous.

In light of these findings, I do declare that we get the CE development team back together and start from scratch.  What I would give to see Squeenix take their lumps for taking away five years of those people's lives and all that hard work just so they can save face.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 16, 2009, 04:01:20 pm
Try this letter on for size:

*      *      *      *      *      *

To the Legal Department of Square Enix, Ltd.,

This letter is in concern to a Cease and Desist letter that you sent on May 8, 2009 to an independent development company called Kajar Laboratories in regards to their version of a ROM hack titled “Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes”, a derivative work of “Chrono Trigger “ © 1995.

Based on current “fair use” (Title 17 U.S.C. § 107) and “derivative work” (Title 17 U.S.C. § 101) guidelines and in reference to the Supreme Court ruling of Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, 1992):

“…the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."

The case in its written entirety can be found here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc. (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.)

 “CT: CE” was a modified version of Chrono Trigger in patch form.  It met the criteria for Fair Use as specified by the ruling of the above case:

"The doctrine of fair use allows a holder of the privilege to use copyrighted material in a reasonable manner without the consent of the copyright owner.”  In your original letter, you failed to demonstrate or provide examples as to how CT: CE was unreasonable in its production.

As such, the distribution of CT: CE was permissible under Fair Use and did not violate the Copyright Act of 1976. From here on, Kajar Laboratories will restart its five-year work on CT: CE which was lost due to your hasty actions earlier this year.

Any attempt to send another Cease & Desist Letter will be met with fierce legal action.  In the event of the court ruling in Kajar Laboratories’ favor, your company will pay compensation equal to the amount threatened in your original Cease & Desist Letter, which was $150,000.

Sincerely,

The Chrono Compendium, and the undersigned.

*      *      *      *      *      *
It's only a sample letter, but it can stand some improvement.  How would you go about fixing it?  (Besides deleting it altogether, of course.)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 16, 2009, 11:08:33 pm
They could've won if they had fought, but they didn't have the money or the time to try.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on October 17, 2009, 04:51:21 pm
Quote
...they didn't have the money or the time to try.

Not even close to an accurate statement, my friend.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 17, 2009, 05:25:21 pm
Well they didn't, did they? I mean they said the reason they didn't want to go to court is that they were just starting new jobs and they were worried about court costs, correct? That sounds like not having the money or time to me. Which is a legitimate reason not to fight it.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 17, 2009, 05:57:58 pm
The CE team was definitely not in a position to mount a challenge, at least from what I could tell. They would have been just barely able to eke out the project release under normal circumstances, and that's with several tangentially involved people pitching in.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 18, 2009, 12:36:15 pm
It all depended on how much SE cared. Actually for you guys, court would have sucked but for Chrono fans that aren't involved it would have been awesome. At least for publicity... The point is they had no choice anyone who thought they did just wanted the sequel.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 18, 2009, 05:26:07 pm

 :( *Sigh*

I thought the letter was a nice shot at a retry at CT: CE.

I would be glad to be the legal representation for the case if the next C&D letter took it that far.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on October 19, 2009, 02:51:06 pm
Are you a lawyer specializing in IP laws?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 19, 2009, 03:35:38 pm
Not really, but one does have the right to act as his own legal counsel at trial.

As for IP laws (you must mean Intellectual Property), the research can be easily collected, organized, and presented in a trial format.

Now, for the big what if...

What if we won?

Update: On second thought, I'll hire out an entertainment attorney specializing in IP laws.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 19, 2009, 07:11:35 pm
They didn't have the time to go to court and fight it, though. Plus, they weren't thinking about if they won, they were thinking about if they lost (I don't think they would, but I'm not the one whose butt would be on the line).
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 19, 2009, 08:01:41 pm
Not really, but one does have the right to act as his own legal counsel at trial.

As for IP laws (you must mean Intellectual Property), the research can be easily collected, organized, and presented in a trial format.

Now, for the big what if...

What if we won?

Update: On second thought, I'll hire out an entertainment attorney specializing in IP laws.


All we really need is Jonny Cochran.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103454
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 19, 2009, 09:01:51 pm
"If the ROM doesn't fit, you must acquit!"
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MKnance on October 19, 2009, 10:39:27 pm
Yes on that digg someone has mentioned they have contacted square enix and there was never sent out a C&D
and i would like to know if this project is completed are is almosted completed if its secrecy i don't care just forum pm it or email me the info please i really like to play it when its finish and its a rom hack and your doing it for no money reason what so ever and if they have an issue they are wrong so please notify me
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 19, 2009, 11:31:22 pm
Yes on that digg someone has mentioned they have contacted square enix and there was never sent out a C&D
and i would like to know if this project is completed are is almosted completed if its secrecy i don't care just forum pm it or email me the info please i really like to play it when its finish and its a rom hack and your doing it for no money reason what so ever and if they have an issue they are wrong so please notify me graalsarah@yahoo.com or forum pm me it thank you
- signed Matthew Nance

O fearless one, thou hast come too late. Also, do some reading before posting like this. Nobody here is working on it. Nobody here has it. It isn't/won't be/never was finished. It's gone.

You should check youtube though, there are some really neat videos there.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MKnance on October 19, 2009, 11:36:35 pm
Why don't they create a new chrono trigger fan based rom hack but implement those laws inside the readme that will cause square enix nothing to do because you have proof in readme that you aka they have the right to do it?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 01:44:30 am
I think what SE was worried about was that it was a rom hack which encouraged downloading roms instead of buying new DS cartridges. I don't think they really cared what was done, they just wanted to stop modding period. This is my opinion, of course, but if someone were to do it again and announce it in any way they could get hit with a lawsuit at worst or another CnD at best if SE thought it popular enough to do monetary damage.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 20, 2009, 02:17:36 am

How exactly would've CE damaged their company?

If anything, it would've validated their popularity and increased sales of their games. (i.e. How many fan bases out there do you know of that dedicate 5 years of their lives to producing an amazing fan mod game?)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 02:30:34 am
I don't think they saw it that way. I understand and agree with you, but I think they saw it as promotion of emulation over purchase, rather than what it was: a work of fan appreciation and even love. Especially since the CnD came from SE America and that Japan may not even know about it, I really think they'd rather crack down on what they see as piracy than let fans be satisfied with their product.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Crono666 on October 20, 2009, 02:50:23 am
What bugs me the most is that I don't get why SE cares.
SE has pretty much made it clear that they have no interest in continuing the Chrono series.
So why do they care so much about fan made Chrono games?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: alfadorredux on October 20, 2009, 09:16:44 am
Oh, for crying out loud...

Squeenix's behaviour in this has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with the way
corporate policy with regards to IP operates in America. Their thinking runs something like
this:

1. We own this IP, or think we do.
2. While we own it, there may be some possibility, however unlikely, that we could make
   money off it.
3. Therefore, we must hold on to it in a death grip even if we have no current use for it.

Keep in mind that if any large corporation were human, it would be considered psychotic.
Squeenix will cheerfully lie, cheat and steal to do what its executives have been taught is
in the corporation's best interests: holding on to property at all costs. It is not
sane behaviour
, and the only way to argue with it is in court.

@MKnance: Because it doesn't matter what's in the readme. Squeenix can still sue even
if they know they're in the wrong
, and even if they lose the suit, the time and money
of the people who fought them won't be given back.

(In case people hadn't guessed, seeing this damned topic resurrected over and over again
is getting on my nerves.)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 20, 2009, 01:30:31 pm

alfadorredux, no one is required to post in this forum.

Although I may disagree with you, I respect the right to your (and my) viewpoint of Squeenix.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 20, 2009, 04:24:20 pm
Quote
It isn't/won't be/never was finished.

Not by the original CE team, anyway.

Quote
Keep in mind that if any large corporation were human, it would be considered psychotic.
Squeenix will cheerfully lie, cheat and steal to do what its executives have been taught is
in the corporation's best interests: holding on to property at all costs. It is not
sane behaviour, and the only way to argue with it is in court.

Corporations in this country have basically taken the Ayn Rand stance, as in, "if the people stop sucking our dicks, we'll take our ball and go home". Hell, they even have half the country convinced that it's their "Christian duty" to let the corporations keep doing their merry thing. So the laws won't ever change unless there's a massive popular revolution.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: alfadorredux on October 20, 2009, 05:52:16 pm
@GenesisOne: If you found my remarks offensive, I apologize. They were mostly a sort of backhanded plea for people to stop beating what has become less of a dead horse and more of a damp, horse-shaped spot on the pavement.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 06:01:49 pm
Quote
It isn't/won't be/never was finished.

Not by the original CE team, anyway.

If somebody else were to finish it, it would not be CE. Two groups have already made an announcement that they are attempting just that, and both are calling it something else and making changes to whatever old busted copy of the alpha they could find, thus, it is not/will not be/never was a complete CE.

Personally, I'm torn on the issue. For one, I think it's a terrible idea, as SE has every right to sue the pants off the people who are trying to "finish CE" because they already issued a warning. They'd be better off making a new mod or a different project altogether. However, in the extremely unlikely event that they finish, I would love to play it.

Here's the kicker though. Because of the original CE development team's connections with this site, namely Z, and the CnD naming specific projects alongside CE, like Prophet's Guile, and Temporal Flux in general, the teams now working on "finishing" the unfinished crap file that was leaked would basically be begging for a lawsuit if they posted a complete game anywhere on this site. SE (America, at least) has knowledge of specific projects that were being worked on here, which means they were paying enough attention to know there used to be a lot of it going on. That would scare the shit out of my pants, and I can't imagine anyone acting ballsy in the face of an actual court and judge.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 20, 2009, 07:03:05 pm
I dunno. I mean these are the same people who stood up to Scientology (an organization even more litigious than Square-Enix) and got Oprah to say "9000 penises" on national television. If anyone can bring a completed CE to fruition, it's them.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 20, 2009, 07:07:19 pm

Who's "them"?  You mean guys like this?

(http://blog.dreamhost.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/homeless-coder.jpg)

Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 07:42:11 pm
I dunno. I mean these are the same people who stood up to Scientology (an organization even more litigious than Square-Enix) and got Oprah to say "9000 penises" on national television. If anyone can bring a completed CE to fruition, it's them.

I don't know what you're talking about, but the two groups who are attempting to "finish" the game are about four people at most. The "them" you're referring to is not the same "them". If you're gonna be vague, that's the best response I've got.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 20, 2009, 08:34:28 pm
The Flames of Eternity guys.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 08:41:15 pm
That's the name of their project, yes, but where did you hear about the Scientology "stand-up" and the Oprah quote?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 20, 2009, 08:57:48 pm
Considering they're members of 4chan's video game board, that makes them part of the Anonymous collective, the same group of people that staged the massive Scientology protests and successfully trolled Oprah on her show.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 09:07:55 pm
That's like saying the Compendium made CE. It's simply not true.

They are four individuals who happen to associate with that site. They are not "the Anonymous collective". They each have an IP number, a screen name (on this site, at least), and a chance of legal ramifications. They are people. "Anon" is a large group who most likely could not give a shit if the game ever got finished. Big difference.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 20, 2009, 09:10:37 pm
Squeenix may well track them down, but there are people on the internet who are reckless enough to risk extreme legal ramifications for what they do, and a lot of 4channers fit into that description.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on October 20, 2009, 09:20:00 pm
Oh god, let's not drag 4chan into this. :D
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 09:29:33 pm
I already agreed they were reckless but I don't see how that could help the individuals who choose to continue hacking the one property SE seems to not want hacked. Good luck to them, I hope their lives don't get ruined over a game.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 20, 2009, 09:46:02 pm
Well, better them than the CE team.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 20, 2009, 10:13:50 pm
I whole-heartedly agree with you on that one!





:kz
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: mav on October 20, 2009, 11:36:43 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/mavken/horse.jpg)
Here's to hoping. And here's to hopping!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 21, 2009, 12:00:50 am
Only bad thing would be is if they totally butcher the game (though it can't be much more of a butchery than the leaked alpha), desecrating the CE team's work. Or if Square decided to sue the CE team over this other team's completion of the alpha :(
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 21, 2009, 02:25:20 am

Reasoning with 4channers is like reasoning with cancer:

It has no logic, it has no rationality, it has no remorse, it has no regrets, and it has no sympathy of any kind.  It'll mess you up from the inside out until the day you die, and it will still exist afterward.

Whatever they legal ramifications they get is too good for them.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 21, 2009, 02:27:04 am
Quote
Or if Square decided to sue the CE team over this other team's completion of the alpha.
This is what I worry about. If we expected Square Enix to behave rationally we wouldn't have to worry about this, but we don't really expect Square Enix to behave rationally after what happened.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: MDenham on October 21, 2009, 02:39:33 am
Quote
Or if Square decided to sue the CE team over this other team's completion of the alpha.
This is what I worry about. If we expected Square Enix to behave rationally we wouldn't have to worry about this, but we don't really expect Square Enix to behave rationally after what happened.
Is this where we Internet Stalk these guys and then serve them with a C&D notice?

(after which we get hit with a C&D notice by SE for no good reason)
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 21, 2009, 02:43:20 am

Don't know. 

Can we even do that?  You know, send the 4channers a C&D letter?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 21, 2009, 03:55:19 am
Quote
Can we even do that?  You know, send the 4channers a C&D letter?

They would just laugh, wipe their asses with the letter, and send back a picture of the poop-stained letter.

Trust me, the threat of lawsuits means nothing to them. Maybe to one of them, but to the collective, no.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Zephira on October 21, 2009, 04:24:48 pm
Ry, it's really just four people who are working on this, and possibly other private groups. We know the names of the most insistent ones, at least. It's not the whole collective of anonymous who's modding the game. It's two or more separate groups of just two, maybe three people each. The threat of lawsuit might mean nothing to these specific people; and yes, they ARE trolls, 4channers, what have you, but they aren't the whole internet.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 22, 2009, 01:53:06 pm

It just breaks my heart to think that they're probably going to butcher the remake to the point of it not having anything to do with the original.

Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: neo-fusion on October 22, 2009, 08:35:41 pm
... Oh well, is there anything we can do? No... send square a C&D all fan project "dooming" and stop hovering like assholes.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dialga_Palkia on October 23, 2009, 04:03:06 pm
.   .   .

How about Square Enix of Japan just make a Wiiware game or whatever the hell they want. Honestly, it ticks me off too they decided to drop the bomb on you guys for your hard work (my word, five years) and look at the other rom games (fan games), most of them don't even get canned. Honestly I think Squenix of America is just a bunch of pussies whereas Squenix of Japan doesn't even know about this. Where's Kato when you need him?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 23, 2009, 11:17:03 pm
He might know about it. There was a Gamefaqs post buy him, or supposed him.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 23, 2009, 11:52:27 pm
Ha! I love taking every excuse I can to post this and remind everyone of the slight, slight possibility that Kato braved a GameFAQs forum to sympathize with the fanbase. Thanks ZealKnight!

(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6153/runmaru.png)


EDIT: Hahaha, he even referred to the "Chrono spirit," which is something we've talked about on the forums here. Either someone from the Compendium or who's ghosted the Compendium forums heavily registered as one masato_kato as a joke, or Kato is really keeping an eye on us, and has been doing so for some time. The interesting thing is, I checked the masato_kato account on GameFAQs at the time and I could swear I saw it's been there for awhile, meaning it could not have been a spur-of-the-moment joke in that case. Even more mysteriously I can't seem to click on the name now to verify because the thread is archived.

You can see the archived thread here though. Anyone able to click on the masato_kato name and get more info?
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=563538&topic=49848232&page=10
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 24, 2009, 01:05:32 pm
It could be legit. It seriously could. The Grammar is very similar to Japanese grammar. Little plural and r and l are used interchangeably.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Vehek on October 24, 2009, 05:18:34 pm
Well, I don't know about the GameFAQs side, but the Gamespot account side considers itself to have been created on July 2, 2009.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 24, 2009, 05:36:25 pm
Forgot to check Gamespot. Well, that answers that.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 25, 2009, 02:19:25 pm
There still lies the chance he made it, to post that comment.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on October 25, 2009, 03:55:03 pm
It could be legit. It seriously could. The Grammar is very similar to Japanese grammar. Little plural and r and l are used interchangeably.

And only a native Japanese speaker could make a post displaying such characteristics.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 25, 2009, 08:30:17 pm
r u making fun of me? Cuz if so ur being a dick.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: FaustWolf on October 25, 2009, 08:39:13 pm
The only way to get to the bottom of it is to score an interview with Kato himself. "Hey...was that you at GameFAQs that one day?" For now it will go into the annals of Chrono fan history as a fascinating mystery. One possible scenario is that it was someone from the Compendium or who ghosted the Compendium who decided to make the post at GameFAQs since there wouldn't be any forum account info for us to check out in that case. I think alts are typically tracked down and eliminated at GameFAQs, which would point away from the possibility of an already-registered GameFAQs user, but I'm honestly not sure how often they enforce any kind of no-alt account policy over there.

Anyway, that Kato might sympathize with the fanbase is still a powerful idea even in the likely scenario that the post is fake. Chrono fans have already received comments from Mitsuda that could be construed as supportive.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on October 26, 2009, 03:40:01 pm
r u making fun of me? Cuz if so ur being a dick.

I think that you have presented a line of reasoning that does not necessarily support the conclusion you think it does.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZealKnight on October 26, 2009, 08:12:21 pm
that was an observation not reasoning :lol:
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZeaLitY on October 26, 2009, 09:12:11 pm
 :picardno
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 29, 2009, 06:37:10 pm

Who knows?  Perhaps it was an isolated incident.

Even so, now with this newfound knowledge of copyright laws on intellectual property, what's stopping us from giving it another shot?  Is it because it might take us another five years to do so, and Squeenix will be waiting in the shadows, and it'll be Deja Vu all over again?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Truthordeal on October 29, 2009, 11:19:15 pm
Even so, now with this newfound knowledge of copyright laws on intellectual property, what's stopping us from giving it another shot?  Is it because it might take us another five years to do so, and Squeenix will be waiting in the shadows, and it'll be Deja Vu all over again?

Quote from: C&D Letter
We demand that you cease and desist any and all efforts to rip, hack or circumvent our copyright protection measures or teach others to do so.

I didn't think it beared enough interest to quote the preceding statement, but the gist of it is that Temporal Flux is a no-no on the Compendium from now on. I suppose that doesn't stop individual members from hacking on other sites, as some are doing with remaking CE, but the Compendium itself as a single entity is not to have anything to do with ROM hacking or Temporal Flux.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on October 30, 2009, 04:00:30 pm

So that's it?  Let the 4channers and Something Awfuls remake something Kajar Labs (not the Compendium) put so much time and effort into butcher it beyond words?

Who knows?  Maybe they'll get a C&D letter from Squeenix and take it up their collective butts.


Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Truthordeal on October 30, 2009, 04:11:59 pm
So that's it?  Let the 4channers and Something Awfuls remake something Kajar Labs (not the Compendium) put so much time and effort into butcher it beyond words?

Yes.

The C&D was rather pointed as it is; I doubt Square-Enix's legal department was in the mood for trivial semantics when they wrote it.

Quote
Who knows?  Maybe they'll get a C&D letter from Squeenix and take it up their collective butts.

Maybe. At least if they do, no one from the Compendium's head will roll as a result.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 30, 2009, 10:01:21 pm
Quote
Even so, now with this newfound knowledge of copyright laws on intellectual property, what's stopping us from giving it another shot?  Is it because it might take us another five years to do so, and Squeenix will be waiting in the shadows, and it'll be Deja Vu all over again?

If you want to do a fan-made Chrono game or a ROM hack independent of the Compendium, and you've got either the resources to hide your ass or the balls to stand up to any C+D letters you get, then by all means do it :) Just don't get the Compendium involved...

Quote
So that's it?  Let the 4channers and Something Awfuls remake something Kajar Labs (not the Compendium) put so much time and effort into butcher it beyond words?

Who knows?  Maybe they'll get a C&D letter from Squeenix and take it up their collective butts.

I doubt these guys will butcher it, they're trying as hard as they can to replicate Crimson Echoes as it could've been. I also doubt a C+D will stop them, as they're much deeper underground than the CE team ever was and are only talking about their efforts on the shadiest of channels.

Quote
Maybe. At least if they do, no one from the Compendium's head will roll as a result.

If Square's vindictive enough they might come after the Compendium even if it's clear the Compendium wasn't involved, though I hope that wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on October 30, 2009, 10:35:59 pm
I love how those involved with the "remake" of Crimson Echoes pretend like they're not one of those involved with the "remake" of Crimson Echoes.  LOLS!
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: RySenkari on October 30, 2009, 11:30:19 pm
If I was a good enough hacker to be involved with Flames of Eternity, I'd be working on reviving Playable Schala right now, not Crimson Echoes.

Oh, and you people would have hundreds of Schala nude sprites to enjoy.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: ZombieBucky on October 30, 2009, 11:47:08 pm
arent we not supposed to talk about this kind of thing?
i mean were all kind of bitter still.
but why pick an old scab and make it bleed more instead of letting it scar up and have it be a memory?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kando on October 31, 2009, 07:34:13 am
flames of eternity? lmao dont expect much from that.

and dont expect any 4channers or something awful's to have the time and dedication to really finish the job.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on October 31, 2009, 03:51:35 pm
flames of eternity? lmao dont expect much from that.

and dont expect any 4channers or something awful's to have the time and dedication to really finish the job.

ok.

:-?
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: GenesisOne on November 01, 2009, 05:31:42 pm

Why not?

If they're supposedly more underground than the Compendium is, then they shouldn't be worrying about whether or not they'll finish the remake.

Besides, it's not they'll care about some C&D letter to halt their progress.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Truthordeal on November 01, 2009, 05:49:03 pm
Which is precisely why they're doing it, and we aren't.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kando on November 01, 2009, 06:22:52 pm

Why not?

If they're supposedly more underground than the Compendium is, then they shouldn't be worrying about whether or not they'll finish the remake.

Besides, it's not they'll care about some C&D letter to halt their progress.

i guarantee you, with the amount of work involved in restoring it, most will go nowhere. i just highly doubt that a 2bit 4chan/sa troll is going to go very far in actually fixing and giving the game justice.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark3mx on November 01, 2009, 07:26:55 pm
Meh, I saw Kando post in this thread last and figured he would have some lowly thing to say about the FoE team. I'm too lazy to go back in the thread to actually see where our project came into this but anyways. The FoE project is making great progress by self-learning everything. Hell, i've even picked up on spriting from just messing with things. Anyways, i'll be in touch.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: kando on November 01, 2009, 08:25:58 pm
Meh, I saw Kando post in this thread last and figured he would have some lowly thing to say about the FoE team. I'm too lazy to go back in the thread to actually see where our project came into this but anyways. The FoE project is making great progress by self-learning everything. Hell, i've even picked up on spriting from just messing with things. Anyways, i'll be in touch.

all i know is from when you guys started up till about 2-3 weeks ago when i last got a progress update, giro was still "dumping the text."

and the text i've seen where he added in the "old english accent"...

http://i29.tinypic.com/23w4ioi.png

I don't think "Ye" was used enough.

hey, feel free to surprise us all man.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark3mx on November 01, 2009, 08:39:36 pm
It's kinda sad how it seems that our projects seem to be going against each other as some sort of nonsensical competition. Yeah, Giro was working on the text dump for a while, but it's mainly because I had been without a computer for a while. We're making changes to the game such as the playable Schala because it would make a little more sense since Ayla is supposedly pregnant with her second child. Anywho, FoE is going to be {almost} the same as CE besides for a few minor changes. And yeah, I got onto Giro about the massive use of the word "Ye" :/ And still, even though progress may be slow, it is still progress.

Also, while I'm here, The reason for the name change is to help avoid SE trying to pull anything against the Compendium by saying that they had something to do with it. And no, the FoE team isn't a bunch of trolls, It's a select few die-hard Chrono fans who really want to see this get out there.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Truthordeal on November 01, 2009, 09:11:01 pm
Well, I wish you all the best of luck. Any venture is a good one at this point...up to the point where you get the Compendium involved, in which case, I trust you know when to stop.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Dark3mx on November 01, 2009, 09:19:12 pm
Well, I wish you all the best of luck. Any venture is a good one at this point...up to the point where you get the Compendium involved, in which case, I trust you know when to stop.

I will make it clear now, the Compendium is in no way affiliated with the FoE project. FoE is a completely different group of people, and has no affiliation with the original CE members either.
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on November 01, 2009, 09:57:58 pm
You better make that distinction if you release it.  God forbid you get the originators in trouble.  But make sure you give credit where credit is due.  :D
Title: Re: C&D: Director's Response
Post by: Mr Bekkler on November 02, 2009, 09:34:40 am
You better make that distinction if you release it.  God forbid you get the originators in trouble.  But make sure you give credit where credit is due.  :D

Maximal double-edged sword!