The fans and members of Kajar Laboratories acknowledge that under
M. Kramer Manufacturing Company, Inc. v. Andrews, 783 F.2d 421 (4th Cir. 1986),
ROM altering and modification is illegal, and the demo has been made without the consent of Square Enix. However, Kajar Laboratories wishes that Square Enix view it as a piece of fanfiction or other fan-related work, falling in the general body of fan community proceedings that are too numerous to prosecute and summarily have a positive effect on the popularity of its games. Should Square Enix perceive the project as a threat to its sales or intellectual property, Kajar Laboratories will immediately cease operation on the project and comply with Square Enix's orders.
Seriously. If legal doesn't speak to you about C&D's, then you let the receptionist take a message that you're ignoring the C&D because it was obviously a hoax and post so on your website. It's not your fault they don't get their act together and under no law are you punishable if you ignore an email after you have tried to verify. If they suck so badly, they deserve this.
Also, make sure you get a detailed account of the numbers you called on your next phone bill and how much minutes were spent talking and off you go. Seriously, who's going to C&D you who doesn't even have a decent email setup... Big international companies these days...jeez
We need some kind of legal expert to give us some guidance on the situation. People left and right are toting nonsensical claims that really don't help. I mean, what can Agent12 do? Can he give them a deadline of some sort (wait, why would he)...This all seems so helpless now. Although getting to talk to the PR people is great, so let's see what happens. I was expecting him to be shot straight to the legal dept.
We need some kind of legal expert to give us some guidance on the situation. People left and right are toting nonsensical claims that really don't help. I mean, what can Agent12 do? Can he give them a deadline of some sort (wait, why would he)...This all seems so helpless now. Although getting to talk to the PR people is great, so let's see what happens. I was expecting him to be shot straight to the legal dept.There is a lot of help out there, several law firms meet with people here for free. If Z needs help he can get it, I trust his judgment in this case.
The thing is they can't afford to argue, The team knows they have some laws and precedents on there side. Regaurdless square has unmatch resources that pretty much nulls everything they've got.
What I don't get is why did they wait until it was 98% done? Did they just not know about it before?
What can't they afford?Fighting this would take a whole lot of time off of real life duties, would infringe on upcoming vacations, interrupt schoolwork, career work and site maintenance, AND there is the risk of that $150,000 fine. The people involved do have lives - and jobs - outside the Compendium. It's not like they can just drop absolutely everything to fight a company that has far more resources, lawyers and experience.
What can't they afford?Fighting this would take a whole lot of time off of real life duties, would infringe on upcoming vacations, interrupt schoolwork, career work and site maintenance, AND there is the risk of that $150,000 fine. The people involved do have lives - and jobs - outside the Compendium. It's not like they can just drop absolutely everything to fight a company that has far more resources, lawyers and experience.
And don't think they don't care. They aren't talking or fretting about it in public because that wouldn't do any good for anyone. You can only mourn and mope for so long. It's time to move on, give them some breathing room, and rebuild in other ways.
People seem to be scared because SE is such a large company, but the fact is that they would have a hell of a time putting this case together as well and there is no way that it would be worth it to bust 2-3 people for making a mod of a SNES game that was released 15 years ago. All together, if they won the case, they would get their fines for $150,000 plus or whatever which no one here has, so basically they would lose out and all they could possibly do is put a couple people in prison for making a mod for an obsolete game.If SE wins: they get the money, CE isn't released, it set a precedent that can ruin future romhacks, the CE team will be ruined.
There is no way that they will pursue a case here as there is no benefit for them doing so. They wouldn't get a beneficial judgment and they sure as hell wouldn't get good publicity from it.
Either way SE will be fine or better, but the CE team will get nothing other then a warm feeling in there gut because "they did the right thing and fought". As long as there is a risk of failure and no real reward for success why do it?
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.
The thing is they can't afford to argue, The team knows they have some laws and precedents on there side. Regaurdless square has unmatch resources that pretty much nulls everything they've got.
What can't they afford? SE can't afford to take this to court, because they know it is baseless. They are just sending out empty threats in order to scare people and keep them in line. Also, as I said before, do they actually think that it's a stand alone release or do they know it's a patch? If it's a patch, there is nothing they can do about it.
I definitely say that it should be expressed to them what the project actually is and what it is intended for at least. If there is no response, I would say get some free legal advice from a lawyer and they might even tell you that their C&D is baseless.
The point here is that there will be no court date, there will be no fighting it on SE's part. They are just throwing out an empty threat and they have no authority to stop you from releasing a patch to a game.
Seriously, there are countless games out there for the PC and for SNES emulators where patches or modifications similar to these are released all the time and they are perfectly legal. The problem seems to be that SE thinks that these games are being made as stand alone projects and they are in turn passing out illegal copies of a rom in a modified state.
They could state that they have not authorized people who have a copy of the game to have a ROM image of the game as well like I believe a few companies have already done so. In that case, they still can't tell you to not release a patch to that ROM as the patch itself is still not illegal, only the ROM image itself would be.
Oh I thought these things would go like in Phoenix Wright, and you just appear in court and you get a not guilty verdict :?
anyway it's a pretty good idea, i mean a game where in zeality and the team go out on an adventure to battle evil game companies and save the internet
Oh I thought these things would go like in Phoenix Wright, and you just appear in court and you get a not guilty verdict :?
anyway it's a pretty good idea, i mean a game where in zeality and the team go out on an adventure to battle evil game companies and save the internet
I wouldn't want to play a game with ZeaLitY as the main character. His brand of enthusiasm works well for boss battles, but I just don't want to have to go through a Springtime of Youth speech every time we encounter a spiky lemur or a poisonous flower. Plus, the special effects for his attacks would bankrupt us. =(
the next new guy who registers here and says chrono cross sucks im gonna smack across the face
several times
What if a person outside US law that helped with the project were to take the fall and release it. If it's coming from a source you 'couldn't control' than there really isn't to much that they can do- I hope.
(not "Chrono Cross" which was terrible)
But it'd still go back to the main source, Zeality. They practically know where he lives which is incredibly creepy and stalkerish...
Yes, they deleted all personal copies. That does not mean that someone who was given a copy necessarily complied with their instructions. In which case.... it's not their fault if it gets released and SE can't really do anything.
"Zeality and everyone already told SE that they deleted all copies. If a copy appears, it'll go back to them, regardless of who did it."Actually, they're still liable for that (though the extent would be "give us the list of people other than the development team who had access to it" to prepare the rabid attack
Yes, they deleted all personal copies. That does not mean that someone who was given a copy necessarily complied with their instructions. In which case.... it's not their fault if it gets released and SE can't really do anything.
...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.
Quote...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.
And that, in the game modder's mind, is exactly the point.
You could just as easily say it with this country song:Sorry but this just made me laugh, good call. :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo
You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...
Thing is, I wish they'd hold because I think Square has pocket sixes and we've got pocket jacks.
You guys should look up the laws of derivative work...Heh, I posted these same exact things earlier (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7396.msg160109/topicseen.html#msg160109), nice to see we share the same thoughts. And you are correct, at least about it being up to the creators of the game. Again though, the thing is that the concept of derivative works and the precedent set in the Galoob Toys case will only help if Square lets the CE team offer up their side of the argument or if this goes to court. The former is the likelier of the two, but I'm not sure whether that's even happening...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.
...
§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works38
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
TL/DR version is that CE may be fair use, but the only way to find out would be to call SE's bluff, get taken to court, and see how they interpret CE in view of copyright law and the DMCA.Perhaps the complicated process is much worse than the result it might cause?
QuoteTL/DR version is that CE may be fair use, but the only way to find out would be to call SE's bluff, get taken to court, and see how they interpret CE in view of copyright law and the DMCA.Perhaps the complicated process is much worse than the result it might cause?
What did Chrono and his friends do when they saw the horrible future? Did they simply accept it as too impossible a task to try and change? No, the fought to change it- and they accomplished their goals. It was tough, it was dangerous but by golly, they did it.
"If that is your mentality then your mentality is like that of a kid in high school who gets bullied all the time but is afraid to stand up for himself out of fear of being hurt, or like that of a slave who fears the master's whip should he attempt rebellion."
"Mark my words- years later, when you've turned your back on all your work, which has been reduced to ashes while SE goes back to releasing certain games (FX 10-3) only in Japan and acting like dicks all-around, you're not going to be happy about this. You can try to trick yourself into talking about how your 5 years of destroyed work was briefly a "symbol" on some gaming sites and praise yourselves for avoiding the wrath of Kahn/SE and keeping a site safe (whose information could all easily be copied and transferred elsewhere), but deep down inside you'll never be able to forgive yourselves if you allow SE to steal so much of your lives and your dreams and yourselves away from you."
So why all this hatred? And especially calling them immoral dicks? I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules. But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking. Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.
QuoteSo why all this hatred? And especially calling them immoral dicks? I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules. But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking. Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.
Because we wanted to play this game. We wanted to play it bad and we're pissed off. I can bash Square if I want to. I won't do it here, because I know this place is trying to keep a good image, but you can bet I'm going to vent everywhere else. I don't care if Square is in the right legally. We need to change the laws, and if that means content creators take their balls and go back home to Galt's Gulch, then fine. We don't need their stinky balls, we'll make our own balls.
Wow. Just wow. I am ashamed to call myself a geek. Most of the people responding to this news are retarded.yep
Do you really think that Square spent 5 years monitoring Crimson Echoes? Really? Do you know anyone who has been at the same job for five years? Let alone who would bother to calender and follow a fan project for that long? Anyone who thinks Square held off till the end because they're evil is just a moron.
I am appalled at the rancor and venom I've seen bandied about here and in other forums. You think a company is evil, malicious, soulless dicks, just because they sent a cease and desist on this one fan game? Now I really respect the creativity and dedication that went into Crimson Echoes, but come on! 99.99999% of companies protect their IP. Sure, you could point to a few exceptions like Valve, Nintendo and Capcom--BUT THEY'RE THE EXCEPTIONS. And I promise you they still send cease and desists too on outrageous acts of infringement.
And I hate to say, but Crimson Echoes was an outrageous act of infringement. No way in hell it's fair use. Red Neck, that was a decent analysis from someone who attended a class, but you're insane to think this is even debatable. Fair use is a pipe dream.
Your best argument would be the Game Genie case, but go ahead and read it for yourself. The reason that wasn't infringement is only because the Game Genie itself didn't have any infringing content on it. You guys have a patch that contains a whole new game (unless my reading of the forums is totaly off). Whole new plot, dialogue, etc. Even going by Game Genie, you're up sh*% creek.
All of you are talking about how unprofessional the cease and desist was. How so? Point to a sentence that was cruel. They set it out and threatened to sue. They didn't sue yet. They didn't go after all the other stuff on the Compendium. They didn't go after al the scripts and other stuff you havelisted in the left column. So far as I can tell, they were pretty narrowly focused. It would've been downright inane for them to demand taking down Crimson Echoes but letting the other mods stay up.
A few people compared this cease and desist to the old one. The new one is by the inhouse lawyers. You guys have probably never worked int he real world, but inhouse lawyers are much more business-like than law firms. Law firms get paid by the hour. They use stupid legalese. Inhouse guys go straight to the point. I don't see anything bad about the letter, except maybe they didn't fully understand Temporal Flux, which is totally beside the point.
So why all this hatred? And especially calling them immoral dicks? I get it, you guys think you're chaotic good, doing what you know is right in the face of unfair rules. But you're showing yourselves to be so much more hateful and ignorant than the thing you're attacking. Ths lynch mob mentality and ignorant self-righteousness is disgusting.
Not talking about a new mod, I'm talking about all the greedy content creators who will flee the industry when we reform copyright law the way it should be. I'm talking about making movies, TV shows, music, and games, in place of all the people who were just in it for the money who are gonna leave.
Not talking about a new mod, I'm talking about all the greedy content creators who will flee the industry when we reform copyright law the way it should be. I'm talking about making movies, TV shows, music, and games, in place of all the people who were just in it for the money who are gonna leave.
None of this really makes any sense. There is already the precedent out there that it is okay to release a modded version of a 16-bit era game as long as it's in the form of a patch and that you own the actual game itself.Agreed. We should stand up and defy the C&D, let them know our rights!
How can they tell you to remove a program like Temporal Flux from the site? I guess with that logic, Action Replay, Gameshark or any other program that modifies a game is illegal and should be banned.
I think that people are just falling into their trap of being scared by the C&D letter and not standing up for their rights. You guys do have rights here and they are being trampled on.
The question is: Does SE know that you did not plan on distributing this as a stand alone game? How do we know what they know?
Take a look at all of the other games out there. There are games like The Sims where there is a ton of user created content and it's legal for people to make these mods. There is no difference here.
There is no legal precedence for them to arbitrarily tell you to C&D.
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.
That's a, uh, novel interpretation of that clause...I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.
Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems
``(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological
Measures.--
(1)
``(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The
prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at
the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of
this chapter. <<NOTE: enacted October 28, 1998.>>
TF helps circumvents the technological measures that control access to the raw data of CT. I'd say that TF is not all that safe and it is 99% non-BS.
In 2003 that was revised to no longer apply to obsolete technology.
Okay. I'm gonna try to give a full analysis of this situation here, as I see it. I'm not a lawyer, but I just finished up a class on Intellectual Property, the vast majority of which was spent on copyright. I could try to email the professor and see if she'd give me her opinion on it, but I have a feeling it would be about the same as I come up with as I work my way through it here. (Also, I started on this about 4:00 in the afternoon, Central Time in the US, and came back to it about 10:30, and I didn't refresh the page. So, if anyone has said any of what I say in here, I apologize).Shit, we might just be taking the same class. Anyhow, your post contains possibly the most valid information we've seen yet. Those four factors are literally what the Supreme Court uses to essentially determine "who's right" regarding copyright infringement. I suggest skipping to the end of the spoiler, in case you don't want to read much, otherwise highlight away and see how the four factors apply, in my opinion.
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.
stradf
Hi CE,
I had my lawyer confirm it fell under the same legislation as fanfiction. As long as you make no profit or claim ownership of characters, you have all rights to develop the game. Talk to him directly at joseph.karlson - at - karlsonandkarlson.com Tell Frank sent you.
QuoteWhen you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.
I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.
I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.
Rest assured the CE project team is looking at all its options.Good to know, FW. I'm just curious though, who exactly do you mean by the "CE project team"? Are you also looking into options, or is it Zeality and Agent12?
QuoteWhen you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.
I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.
Chrono and crew fought for freedom, not for government controlled economies! Go Chrono!
Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs
But regarding the arts, I do think there should be more freedom for the sake of development.
After all, if profit had not been considered, we'd have been in the Industrial Revolution two thousand years ago. Hero of Alexandria built a steam engine in antiquity, after all. But it was never implimented. After all, there were slaves. Living machines in the view of the law that could be used and abused. It was more profitable to use them rather than some mechanical contraption.
Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs
Besides, people can make fanart, fanfiction, and remixes...
Well, what I think is there should be a copyright on the exact work itself, but not on derivations thereof. It requires the artist to keep a certain level of performance if they wish to do anything more with it. Essentially, if someone else can follow up on it and do better with it, the right to use it passes then to the other person. However, the artist would retain copyright for the original work. In this case, then, SE would keep a copyright on CT itself, but anyone would be free to make a sequel. And if SE is really that good at making these games, it truly shouldn't matter because their product will out-perform the others, and they should not need any sort of further protection. But if the product is inferior, then the superior product made by others is to be had by the public.
SE > FU
Instead of giving anyone free reign to make a profit off of a derivative work, the copyright laws just need to be changed so that more non-profit derivative works (i.e. fanfiction, game mods, etc.) are allowed, provided they include a disclaimer that explicitly disassociates it with the real thing.
Well, what I think is there should be a copyright on the exact work itself, but not on derivations thereof. It requires the artist to keep a certain level of performance if they wish to do anything more with it. Essentially, if someone else can follow up on it and do better with it, the right to use it passes then to the other person. However, the artist would retain copyright for the original work. In this case, then, SE would keep a copyright on CT itself, but anyone would be free to make a sequel. And if SE is really that good at making these games, it truly shouldn't matter because their product will out-perform the others, and they should not need any sort of further protection. But if the product is inferior, then the superior product made by others is to be had by the public.
This would have the unfortunate side effect of achieving exactly what you're trying to avoid: making large companies hyper-competitive and squeezing out small-time artists. Your mistake is assuming that artistic merit is the measure by which people spend their dollars. If Individual U has an Excellent Idea E, but can only execute it on a Fixed Budget F, and then Scheming Corporation S swoops down and makes E its own, and collects the lion's share of the profits, then we wind up with a fundamental imbalance in the creative expression:
SE > FU
Your philosophy is spot-on, but your implementation is hopelessly flawed.
Wow, I wonder if Japanese fans are feverishly trying to whip up translations of what's said in the preview videos, or maybe what's in the C&D.
It's on some Japanese sites, though I don't know how many places it's gone to, or if it's reached Japanese news sites.
http://hakopina.blog87.fc2.com/blog-entry-346.html
I've also seen a mention on 2channel in a CT-hacking thread.
So as not to beat a dead horse once more I'll make this quick. In regards to Glenn27 I'll say again. If you were in their shoes could you possibly handle the potential of up to $150K in fines, plus court costs and possible jail time? If your answer is yes then apprently you've got bigger balls then all of us...lol
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.
So as not to beat a dead horse once more I'll make this quick. In regards to Glenn27 I'll say again. If you were in their shoes could you possibly handle the potential of up to $150K in fines, plus court costs and possible jail time? If your answer is yes then apprently you've got bigger balls then all of us...lol
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.
Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.
Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!
Sorry seph I think everyone is a little tense here, we had a long week as you can imagine :)
Browse around you may find a petition that you enjoy.
--JP
Oh, when will you ever learn? Square Enix doesn't care about the fans, they only care about the cash. They can relax, sit back, and have a beer, knowing that people will buy their crap no matter how shittty it is regardless, and the cash will keep flowing in, while meanwhile, aside from making this bullshit we continuously buy, they have nothing else to do but send C&D's to poor hard working guys who are trying to please the fans and repair Square Enix's image a little.
Ok I've seen this alot. Listen I'm a cynical person (normally), but that is crap. SE is not a living entity, it's made up of living people like you an me. They are not soul stealing demons or evil overlords. They are a corperation. Yes they wanna make money, who doesn't. Do you want money? I guess not. I suppose your busy living off the land with no electricty or mordern convinivences....well beside a computer apparently. It's just more diffcult to reach those responisble, it does not mean they are heartless monsters who sleep surronded by the money they got from killing orphens! Am I exagerateing....I'm not sure the way you act I'm begining to think you think they do that.
What happened to CE is bad, but it doesn't mean SE is evil. Enough demonization!
No. Screw SE. They're not the same company anymore, and the games they make nowadays suck anyway. I mean, who "makes a whole new game" by adding on to games over 10 years old? It just ruins the old game. Yes, I'm talking about CT DS. I didn't buy it and refuse to now. Hell, even though I bought a PS3 in part for the sake of getting FFvsXIII this year, I think I'll just boycott the game. Screw SE.
Ok, so this part we must not let out. We must not let this part be known on game news sites. Because this justifies Square shutting us down. We need to make it look like Square is to blame. So no more as to if it is real or not. We should dismiss this as fake, and continue to turn everyone against Square. Then if we can get some negotiation between Square and us that would be wonderful, our job is to get global video game recognition.Actually, the fact that what was stated in that e-mail was massively factually incorrect gives SE less ground for shutting us down. The best case is that (1) the e-mail is real and (2) we find out who actually sent it and go forward with a libel suit against them.
So those links in the message... My internet is being shoddy and loading very slowly...They claimed that the game was for profit, that Zeality was actually claiming the rights to the copyrights, and at least one other item that was total and complete BS that I can't remember at this time.
Were they posts that claimed the game was for profit?
Ok, so this part we must not let out. We must not let this part be known on game news sites. Because this justifies Square shutting us down. We need to make it look like Square is to blame. So no more as to if it is real or not. We should dismiss this as fake, and continue to turn everyone against Square. Then if we can get some negotiation between Square and us that would be wonderful, our job is to get global video game recognition.
I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.
Actually, it's not - it's more of a "we're the good guys, but we're not going to stand for our good name being smeared by people who think that being an asshole on the Internet is funny" stance, which is what we should be leaning towards anyway.I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.
Once again, though a suit for libel is enticing and might sound nice, if the Compendium or ZeaLitY did something like that, it would be pretty counterproductive to "We're the goodguys" standing that we're going for...
It depends on if the would-be defendant is some rich guy in the suburbs (maybe?) or just some internet teenager in his mom's basement who is getting back at the cruel, cruel world that he lives in (more likely?).Actually, it's not - it's more of a "we're the good guys, but we're not going to stand for our good name being smeared by people who think that being an asshole on the Internet is funny" stance, which is what we should be leaning towards anyway.I suspect that there's a libel case in there somewhere.
Once again, though a suit for libel is enticing and might sound nice, if the Compendium or ZeaLitY did something like that, it would be pretty counterproductive to "We're the goodguys" standing that we're going for...
Its probably some wierdo who doesn't want to see a new chrono game as he believes its reputation and theories that he came up with will be ruined >.>
But why spoil it for everyone ? Crimson Echoes expanded on the original game ...and didn't destroy anything . Hmmm have we ever had someone called Alienator at the compendium before ?
Boo, that is pretty much what the CE team hopes to accomplish. However, as I am personally not at liberty to explain further, I, uh, can't explain further.
No. Screw SE. They're not the same company anymore, and the games they make nowadays suck anyway. I mean, who "makes a whole new game" by adding on to games over 10 years old? It just ruins the old game. Yes, I'm talking about CT DS. I didn't buy it and refuse to now. Hell, even though I bought a PS3 in part for the sake of getting FFvsXIII this year, I think I'll just boycott the game. Screw SE.
No they are indeed the same company, Square merged with another company witch give them a bunch of new staff, and management.... sadly after all these years they have just lost their touch, and most likely fired most of the old staff and/or they retired after so many years of ass kicking game making...
Someone really needs to sic' 4Chan on Alienator and have them Kenny Glenn the hell out of that fucker.
Yes, I know 4Chan's not anyone's personal army but I'm sure there are more than enough Chrono Trigger fans to warrant interest in Kenny Glenn'ng the guy.
Let's not start yet another rumor cascade, folks. All we're doing is working with Square Enix to finalize the details of our compliance with their demands, and grappling with the community outrage at the shutdown of this wonderful project.
It is tantalizing to reveal information when one is "in the know," which is why Faust said he's "not at liberty" to talk about it. Really, however, there's not much to talk about. We can't talk about our conversations with SE because SE doesn't want us to, because they like to think they're in control of the way this little controversy unfolds. Fine, more power to 'em. But if we could talk about those conversations, you'd probably find it pretty boring.
If anything exciting does eventually come up, I'm sure that Agent 12 will post about it here in the News board. But all the juiciest details are public already: The dev team got a C&D, they're complying with it, and therefore we had to shut down Crimson Echoes on the eve of its release.
May your restless imaginations be at peace.
If that's the case, any sort of rumors could've been completely killed by the staff here just flat-out denying what was said instead of just editing posts. Because nothing was denied, we're going to hope against hope, and in fact, this post just now has less credibility than what was deleted last night.
Let's not start yet another rumor cascade, folks. All we're doing is working with Square Enix to finalize the details of our compliance with their demands, and grappling with the community outrage at the shutdown of this wonderful project.
It is tantalizing to reveal information when one is "in the know," which is why Faust said he's "not at liberty" to talk about it. Really, however, there's not much to talk about. We can't talk about our conversations with SE because SE doesn't want us to, because they like to think they're in control of the way this little controversy unfolds. Fine, more power to 'em. But if we could talk about those conversations, you'd probably find it pretty boring.
If anything exciting does eventually come up, I'm sure that Agent 12 will post about it here in the News board. But all the juiciest details are public already: The dev team got a C&D, they're complying with it, and therefore we had to shut down Crimson Echoes on the eve of its release.
May your restless imaginations be at peace. :|
:picardno
Anyone can make a TL;DR version of what happened in those kajillion of pages?
I don't know if this was posted on this site but on Arc Forums this suspicious person posted this email
http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15931
is the topic
Alienat0r is the poster, the Email is under the spoiler tags.
http://kagerostudios.b1.jcink.com/index.php?showtopic=330&st=120&#entry15931
hump that's a disturbing e-mail, but there's no E-Mail address for square in it....
Also, neither the text of the sender nor the receiver is ever in purple in GMail, at least as far as I know.
As for the misspelling, it can happen to Square Enix too. But putting that e-mail side to side with one of my own GMail mails, everything is perfect. The outlining, the lettertype, everything matches. Unless he spent a night making this I don't see how it's fake.
Also, as this e-mail has been sent somewhere in april, I think it's safe to say that whoever this guy is has been after CE and maybe other project for a month. The time gap of one month could be explained by Square Enix investigating the matter.
The purple text is only there for me when I open an email that I've sent, and not an email I've received.
And how would Neil not be real person. Why write that name if it's not a real person.
The purple text is only there for me when I open an email that I've sent, and not an email I've received.
Exactly. The second half of the email (the quoted text of the email he supposedly originally sent) should be purple.And how would Neil not be real person. Why write that name if it's not a real person.
No idea...I just didn't think there was a real person named "Neil" who answers every query gamers have made to customer support over the last few years. Besides that would probably be a terrible job. Every day you'd write a dozen emails to the effect of, "No, SE is not developing FFVII for the PS3." or "No, FF13 is not coming to North America this year."
From what I read in that topic at Studio Kagero, it seems this person was trying to bring down their fan projects, and because what happened with the C&D and Crimson Echoes and everything, the team at SK has decided to put a stop to all their work with their fan game.
This person seemed to be happy about that, even expresed his satisfaction to see that both CE and the game at Studio Kagero was going to a halt, but for what I can gather, it seems this person was really going after them, the people at Studio Kagero and Chrono Crisis, for whatever reasons s/he had...
Now, how valid this e-mail is, that's another question, and I am affraid I don't know the answer, it could be a fake, but the intentions of this person where clearly bad regarding the fan games, and s/he even expresed his/her ill will towards the modding community and how glad it was that SE took action against it.
In any event, I agree 100% with Enigma, this person is a complete asshole...
I am sad to see this kind of behavior, but I am keeping my hopes up for CE, for all the dreamers, our planet's dream is has not yet ended!
This is really turned into some detective shit. All sorts of theories around. Not to mention the whole "For THose Depressed" thread Zeality wrote, then the C n D, then he dips to Europe.Z has been talking about that trip for a long time, "For Those Depressed" thread was in response to the C&D. All makes since to me.
NOT SAYING IT'S RELATED, but it makes for a damn good story! All will be cleared when we hear from SE again, assuming that happens.
We appreciate your feedback. We apologize that the announcement you are referring to do not meet your expectations. Your information will be forwarded to my superiors. We do cherish the support and opinion from our customers and look forward to hearing your remarks regarding our upcoming games.
Thanks,
Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com
---
Interesting new development there, the two links he posted (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157 and http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0) do correspond to the time of that email possibly being sent--both the gamespot and ign posts were at the same time.
What a tool.
We appreciate your feedback. We apologize that the announcement you are referring to do not meet your expectations. Your information will be forwarded to my superiors. We do cherish the support and opinion from our customers and look forward to hearing your remarks regarding our upcoming games.
Thanks,
Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com
---
What? Either a bot or he didn't read the e-mail.
You forgot to add that the user that posted the comments only had 1 post on each site:Righto, I was kinda hinting at that. In fact, I should have just blatantly said that these accounts were created solely for those messages and that those messages were created solely for Alienat0r's supposed email. Although the veracity of the email is still ambiguous, it puts many things in perspective. He lied outright about the team charging for this product, which may have caused SE to send the C&D in the first place.
http://boards.ign.com/nintendo_ds_lobby/b7594/179058758/p1/?0
Hellspawns
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http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26842157
Hellspawns
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and on one site it show's his joined date witch was only last month. It's almost as if he/she made that account just to mislead or so that he would have prof to go with his E-Mail assuming that it was indeed the same person.
And here I thought SE were just being a-holes. I'll show that dumb*** alienator...
That's actually very likely, I just read the thread atAnd here I thought SE were just being a-holes. I'll show that dumb*** alienator...
See what did I say before... and everyone was ready burn them at the stake for being evil demons. I knew there was a reason, we need to see things from a diffrent light. They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!
Here's the thing, though. If, and ONLY if Alienator is solely responsible for this whole situation, he's obviously doing it to be a giant asshole and a troll. In that case, he WANTS people to flame him, because that's what trolls do.
The ONLY people who could deal with Alienator over the internet in such a way that he would not enjoy it is /b/ at 4chan. They could ruin/severely disrupt his life, and though he might be enough of a masochistic troll that he'd enjoy the attention for a while, eventually he'd probably be disrupted enough to regret what he did.
The thing is, 4chan lives off of trolling and internet drama. So even if we appealed to 4chan to raid Alienator, they might just regard him as a conquering hero. Instead of getting a raid, he might get a PArade from 4chan.
This is all assuming he's actually responsible for all this.
Here's the thing, though. If, and ONLY if Alienator is solely responsible for this whole situation, he's obviously doing it to be a giant asshole and a troll. In that case, he WANTS people to flame him, because that's what trolls do.
The ONLY people who could deal with Alienator over the internet in such a way that he would not enjoy it is /b/ at 4chan. They could ruin/severely disrupt his life, and though he might be enough of a masochistic troll that he'd enjoy the attention for a while, eventually he'd probably be disrupted enough to regret what he did.
The thing is, 4chan lives off of trolling and internet drama. So even if we appealed to 4chan to raid Alienator, they might just regard him as a conquering hero. Instead of getting a raid, he might get a PArade from 4chan.
This is all assuming he's actually responsible for all this.
I say the best way to handle this is infact to just work on getting CE back on track and ignoreing that idiot. Who care about a troll they only get off on you paying them mind anyway.
COME ONE PEOPLE LET'S WORK ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS!
.... Maybe if you bothered to read my post, I said they might give the go ahead witch means a lift on the C&D and I also said the odds are low at best so no I don't think they will, but being optimistic about things never hurts.I think they where twisting the statement about "working on" what's important...by that I met conviniceing them to change their minds not working on the game.
As long as the probability is above 0...Exactly! YEAH!
Well, you can't give up hope.
I think they where twisting the statement about "working on" what's important...by that I met conviniceing them to change their minds not working on the game.
Man now I'm really pissed. Everything about this is now coming together in such a way that I personally see almost no way of this being fake. To quote a great scene from Spaceballs:
Dark Helmet-Who is he?
Colonel Sandurz-He's an Asshole sir.
Dark Helmet-I know that but what's his name?
Colonel Sandurz-That is his name sir! Major Asshole.
I too am almost tempted to get 4Chan in on this but as we all know they thrive on chaos and that has nearly as much potential for blowing up in our face as it does for making his internet live hell. In any event I want to hear Faust's (or anyone else close to the project) thoughts on this matter in light of the new info. Plain and simple this was a set up. Granted at the end of the day the chances are not in our favor for the release of CE but one would think in light of this that at the very least presenting this info to Square Enix might get them off the Compendium's back and keep them from doing further legal action.
I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?
You give them too much credit, what they do isn't nearly as impressive as you think.I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?
To keep it short let's just say 4Chan is famous for more than lulz, cat pics and Rick Rolling. From my understanding they've also got a rep for having a fair share of hackers/assholes and have been known to really make life hell for people they deem deserving. Some of the pranks they claim to have pulled can range from harmless (Rick Rolling is said to have started there) to downright mean and damaging (such as this C&D).
As I said before it's tempting but they like chaos. Either they would see him as a huge jerk or a hero. Plus they don't like to be anyone's "army" for revenge. If 4Chan ever did get wind of this and started something then there's no telling what could happen. Dealing with them is like opening Pandora's Box. Something good may or may not come out of it but in the end someone is still getting fucked.
Once again it's tempting but it's far from worth it :-/
I don't mean to stir things up further, but what do you mean by "get 4Chan in on this"? Isn't 4Chan just a site with lulz images?
To keep it short let's just say 4Chan is famous for more than lulz, cat pics and Rick Rolling. From my understanding they've also got a rep for having a fair share of hackers/assholes and have been known to really make life hell for people they deem deserving. Some of the pranks they claim to have pulled can range from harmless (Rick Rolling is said to have started there) to downright mean and damaging (such as this C&D).
As I said before it's tempting but they like chaos. Either they would see him as a huge jerk or a hero. Plus they don't like to be anyone's "army" for revenge. If 4Chan ever did get wind of this and started something then there's no telling what could happen. Dealing with them is like opening Pandora's Box. Something good may or may not come out of it but in the end someone is still getting fucked.
Once again it's tempting but it's far from worth it :-/
They where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!
It doesn't seem worth it to give this guy any more attention, but some of this stuff is kinda fun. (Btw, the 'T--gg--' word can't be Trigger, there's no 'i' in there.I think it says B. Von Taggart or B. Van Taggart or similar.
I think it says B. Von Taggart or B. Van Taggart or similar.
That would also correspond with the language, I think.
Also, for the newer members, this isn't 4chan. Have fun if you want, but don't be asses...
QuoteThey where misinformed. Of course now that the big wheels of bussiness have turned it may be impossible to save CE....BUT WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!
I can think of one similar gaming example where the wheels of business were reversed
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6112603.html) It's number 4 on the page. Nintendo apologized for mistakingly C&Ding a porn site for mentioning zelda. Maybe a bit of hope. Although this is different square could be sending you free games in the end!
Also you should definitely let Lowtax from something awful do the the negotiations with Square he has a good record:P http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/ (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/legal-threats/) Maybe he'll be good inspiration reading that stuff is more fun the hungry hungry hippos. :D
He was really starting to creep me out. And I didn't even have a suspicion it was him until the very end. I still want to know why, but I don't care to spend any more energy trying to know.
...they didn't have the money or the time to try.
Not really, but one does have the right to act as his own legal counsel at trial.
As for IP laws (you must mean Intellectual Property), the research can be easily collected, organized, and presented in a trial format.
Now, for the big what if...
What if we won?
Update: On second thought, I'll hire out an entertainment attorney specializing in IP laws.
Yes on that digg someone has mentioned they have contacted square enix and there was never sent out a C&D
and i would like to know if this project is completed are is almosted completed if its secrecy i don't care just forum pm it or email me the info please i really like to play it when its finish and its a rom hack and your doing it for no money reason what so ever and if they have an issue they are wrong so please notify me graalsarah@yahoo.com or forum pm me it thank you
- signed Matthew Nance
It isn't/won't be/never was finished.
Keep in mind that if any large corporation were human, it would be considered psychotic.
Squeenix will cheerfully lie, cheat and steal to do what its executives have been taught is
in the corporation's best interests: holding on to property at all costs. It is not
sane behaviour, and the only way to argue with it is in court.
QuoteIt isn't/won't be/never was finished.
Not by the original CE team, anyway.
I dunno. I mean these are the same people who stood up to Scientology (an organization even more litigious than Square-Enix) and got Oprah to say "9000 penises" on national television. If anyone can bring a completed CE to fruition, it's them.
Or if Square decided to sue the CE team over this other team's completion of the alpha.This is what I worry about. If we expected Square Enix to behave rationally we wouldn't have to worry about this, but we don't really expect Square Enix to behave rationally after what happened.
Is this where we Internet Stalk these guys and then serve them with a C&D notice?QuoteOr if Square decided to sue the CE team over this other team's completion of the alpha.This is what I worry about. If we expected Square Enix to behave rationally we wouldn't have to worry about this, but we don't really expect Square Enix to behave rationally after what happened.
Can we even do that? You know, send the 4channers a C&D letter?
It could be legit. It seriously could. The Grammar is very similar to Japanese grammar. Little plural and r and l are used interchangeably.
r u making fun of me? Cuz if so ur being a dick.
Even so, now with this newfound knowledge of copyright laws on intellectual property, what's stopping us from giving it another shot? Is it because it might take us another five years to do so, and Squeenix will be waiting in the shadows, and it'll be Deja Vu all over again?
We demand that you cease and desist any and all efforts to rip, hack or circumvent our copyright protection measures or teach others to do so.
So that's it? Let the 4channers and Something Awfuls remake something Kajar Labs (not the Compendium) put so much time and effort into butcher it beyond words?
Who knows? Maybe they'll get a C&D letter from Squeenix and take it up their collective butts.
Even so, now with this newfound knowledge of copyright laws on intellectual property, what's stopping us from giving it another shot? Is it because it might take us another five years to do so, and Squeenix will be waiting in the shadows, and it'll be Deja Vu all over again?
So that's it? Let the 4channers and Something Awfuls remake something Kajar Labs (not the Compendium) put so much time and effort into butcher it beyond words?
Who knows? Maybe they'll get a C&D letter from Squeenix and take it up their collective butts.
Maybe. At least if they do, no one from the Compendium's head will roll as a result.
flames of eternity? lmao dont expect much from that.
and dont expect any 4channers or something awful's to have the time and dedication to really finish the job.
Why not?
If they're supposedly more underground than the Compendium is, then they shouldn't be worrying about whether or not they'll finish the remake.
Besides, it's not they'll care about some C&D letter to halt their progress.
Meh, I saw Kando post in this thread last and figured he would have some lowly thing to say about the FoE team. I'm too lazy to go back in the thread to actually see where our project came into this but anyways. The FoE project is making great progress by self-learning everything. Hell, i've even picked up on spriting from just messing with things. Anyways, i'll be in touch.
Well, I wish you all the best of luck. Any venture is a good one at this point...up to the point where you get the Compendium involved, in which case, I trust you know when to stop.
You better make that distinction if you release it. God forbid you get the originators in trouble. But make sure you give credit where credit is due. :D