Author Topic: Stuff you hate  (Read 169326 times)

xcalibur

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1395 on: November 08, 2011, 08:13:22 am »
That's an excellent point of view, xcalibur. Although Religion cannot be eradicated, however, there are some instances of control of religious ethnics either by the government or the people themselves. I always talked about the superiority of the Indian culture for its tolerance, but leaving that aside there are other examples where Governments manage to intervene to curb chaos and restlessness among the groups.

Just for information, here's the situation in Kazakhstan where unity of both religious and non-religious folks was the result of the Government, and not the People: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kazakhstan

thanks for the link. It seems that pluralism is the best response. The key is separation of church and state, and curbing extremists with pluralism, decent standards of living, and maybe govt intervention.


@ xcalibur:

I agree that total elimination is not likely, so long as we assume natural born humans. Religion is extremely sticky a concept; once created it's very difficult for it to go extinct. However, you misunderstood me when I said that the propensity toward faith is built into the human condition. Faith, yes. Religion, no. Religion is an invention, far more malleable than the faith impulse underpinning it, and has already eliminated previous versions of itself many times as a part of the social evolution.

That's important. It gives us with an opening to eventually correct this tremendous mistake without resorting to the same tools of oppression and conquest which religion itself uses to spread and endure. Through education, we may make people more scientifically literate, more critical, and more disposed toward philosophical fulfillment. Religion provides various benefits that are available more purely elsewhere in life. It also lays a heavy hand on the mores of society, which can easily build resentment toward it (among those who cannot escape the hand) or apathy toward it (among those who can). Meanwhile, through continued prosperity, we can give people the kind of lifestyles which naturally lead away from religion.

Religion has already imploded over the last century. Life as we know it would not be possible otherwise. Today, secular societies dominate many corners of the Earth, and many segments of people within societies are secular. In short, I think you give too much credit to religion's staying power. Its strongest roots lie in the ignorant, the downtrodden, and the indoctrinated. All of those conditions are correctable.

cyborgs and transhumanism won't be an issue for the time being. but it will be interesting to see how such a revolution would interact with established impulses and mores.

It is true that religion is malleable, and has destroyed and rebuilt itself a number of times. However, the faith impulse naturally finds its expression in religion, whether that's as simple as worshipping animal spirits or as complex as Buddhist philosophy. Another issue here is the longevity of a viable religion - the major world religions have long outlasted the civilizations that spawned them. They've gone through times of prosperity, chaos, and transformation, yet are still here.

I'm all for more science, critical thinking, and the propagation of knowledge. It tends to dispel fundamentalist/superstitious beliefs at least. However, there have been plenty of sharp minds and wealthy people involved in religion. It naturally appeals to downtrodden and uneducated peasants, but it appeals to many others across the continuum as well. Buddhism is popular among many social classes, including the rich and powerful (consider Ashoka's role in spreading the religion). Jainism has very high rates of literacy and education. Christianity and Islam likewise appeal to everyone from oil tycoons to convicts.

There has indeed been a rise in secularism, but that isn't unique. The Enlightenment era of the 1700's also promoted secular thought and culture, but that did not eliminate organized religion. Even with this wave of New Atheism, led by Dawkins, Hitchens and others, I don't see religion disappearing. You say I overestimate religion, but I say you underestimate it. Given its track record, it seems to me like a social force that can be controlled, restrained, or harnessed, but not stamped out.

Syna

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1396 on: November 08, 2011, 10:49:50 am »
New Atheism has no long-term cultural traction. It's a movement for the times, perhaps even limited to a period as specific as this decade. There is very little compelling about it; it is adolescent and reactionary in nature, but without the creative catalysts of similarly adolescent movements, like rock and roll. I'm not saying atheism or secularism are doomed, or anything nearly that ill-sighted -- not in the least -- but even now there's plenty of evidence that secular humanism is evolving in a particular direction, one the hardline proponents of Scientism, and the Dawkinites, are going to be screaming and wailing about for years.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 11:41:41 am by Syna »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1397 on: November 08, 2011, 03:12:00 pm »
Quote
There has indeed been a rise in secularism, but that isn't unique. The Enlightenment era of the 1700's also promoted secular thought and culture, but that did not eliminate organized religion.

To the world's everlasting regret. How cool was the Cult of Reason? How much better might democracies around the world function without religion to dilute human interest in politics, or pervert it altogether (with wedge issues like abortion and other moral crises)? How much less willing would people tolerate oppression if they realized that there is no rosy afterlife awaiting? How radically different might the world be without the religious right existing as a voting bloc in America?

Sigh.

Syna

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1398 on: November 08, 2011, 04:17:19 pm »
I hate that "get counseling" is every American's go-to response to problems, some of which are the simple, natural result of a confusing and tumultuous and transient and shadowy reality. But fuck it all, some people really need counseling. I wish I weren't in this position so often: close to someone with major depression, who -- due to the major depression -- is unmotivated and resistant to the idea of going anywhere or doing anything about the depression. Someone whose body is stuck in the idea that their particular lens of reality, which perceives the world as morbid and lifeless, sees the true underlying current of things.

I know there's a limit I can do, and it's not that I see that perspective as wrong, or as easy to alter. I just wish I could DO SOMETHING TO HELP.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1399 on: November 08, 2011, 04:19:05 pm »
I'm a deist, btw.

Me too. Interesting. I didn't think there were any others on here.

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1400 on: November 08, 2011, 04:48:27 pm »
I know there's a limit I can do, and it's not that I see that perspective as wrong, or as easy to alter. I just wish I could DO SOMETHING TO HELP.
Same here. It's not an easy task to help a friend out of that kind of darkness, as RushingWind said once. It probably also isn't the time and place to offer opinions, Syna, but hopefully the following links help (GAAHH! I lost all AFP links!):

http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4317089.aspx
http://www.apa.org/topics/depress/recover.aspx
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/56086.html

And many from ----> http://www.psychologicalscience.org/
But I lost the links... sorry...

One thing's for sure: trying to encourage him/her to be happy by directly implying it won't help, so you'll need suggestive influence to help. Here's some tips.

1) Influence him to smile! Don't ask him to, but influence situations that he'd do it anyway. Reason being, smiling assists mental imagery to simulate emotions, and it works the other way too. Frowning, even if artificially, makes you angrier.
2) One thing I told RW, "Share happiness and it multiplies, but share sorrow and it depletes". Approach empathetically and see if he can confide in you. You don't need to offer advice. Just hear him out, and allow him to open up.
3) Is he attached to art? Sometimes hobby, Zen or meditation helps alleviate negative emotions.
4) See if he'd like to join you for daily morning exercise. Physical fitness and fresh air helps improve mental balance.
5) Get a pet, and give him some responsibility to take care of it: not only does it lower blood pressure, but animal responsibility and empathy promotes positive emotions
6) Help him understand the significance of emotional generosity: help him give love without expecting any returns, and how to enjoy it. Emotional generosity also promotes positive maturity.
7) Help him develop esteem by giving him some problems to solve. Establish trust, and allow him to try "fix" something on his own.
8) Ah, one last thing I forgot! Appeal to the guy's professional status rather than empathetic at times. You can find out why it works on that website.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 04:57:45 pm by tushantin »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1401 on: November 08, 2011, 04:50:22 pm »
It is true that religion is malleable, and has destroyed and rebuilt itself a number of times. However, the faith impulse naturally finds its expression in religion, whether that's as simple as worshipping animal spirits or as complex as Buddhist philosophy.

Ah, but religious faith is not the only form which faith can take! It is simply the most dramatic and the most dangerous. Other forms of faith do not invoke the divine and thus are, if nothing else, not subject to claims of divine authority. Faith-based thinking occurs throughout life, even in people who are not religious if they do not take care.

There has indeed been a rise in secularism, but that isn't unique. The Enlightenment era of the 1700's also promoted secular thought and culture, but that did not eliminate organized religion.

Although I used the word "century" earlier, to refer to some of the most radical changes for the general population as a result of religion's weakening grasp, all of this is a derivative of the Enlightenment and the ensuing Industrial Revolution. In a sense, we're still in that period now.

Given its track record, it seems to me like a social force that can be controlled, restrained, or harnessed, but not stamped out.

Probably correct, and, in any case, very probably the basis for the best policies moving forward. Even I would not outlaw religion simply because it is religion. What I would do is prevent religion from meddling with the affairs of state, and relieve children from the indoctrination of their parents through a stronger public education. That will minimize religion without criminalizing its adherents.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~
New Atheism has no long-term cultural traction. It's a movement for the times, perhaps even limited to a period as specific as this decade. There is very little compelling about it; it is adolescent and reactionary in nature, but without the creative catalysts of similarly adolescent movements, like rock and roll.

I agree. I don't even consider myself a member of the movement. Atheism doesn't have legs to stand on. The atheistic position simply negates a premise. At best, atheism is defined by its opposition to religion and spirituality. An enduring secularism, I think, must be a positive movement which asserts its own premises--and I propose humanism as the basis therefor.

I hate that "get counseling" is every American's go-to response to problems, some of which are the simple, natural result of a confusing and tumultuous and transient and shadowy reality. But fuck it all, some people really need counseling. I wish I weren't in this position so often: close to someone with major depression, who -- due to the major depression -- is unmotivated and resistant to the idea of going anywhere or doing anything about the depression.

I know there's a limit I can do, and it's not that I see that perspective as wrong, or as easy to alter. I just wish I could DO SOMETHING TO HELP.

Oh, golly, can I relate to that. Having had the good fortune to deal with all my demons at the more tender ages of childhood, I haven't had mental problems since. Yet some of my dearest friends have! Indeed...I think more of my friends than not have had psychological problems.

My dad is a psychologist--oh dear, I'm sounding like Daniel Krispin--and I learned from him the legitimacy of the field of psychology. I also learned how psychologists are passed over in favor of psychiatrists who often will only medicate a problem. Most people need professionally licensed counseling. There are so many "therapists" and whatnot out there, but only a fully trained psychologist (or the rare psychiatrist who is willing to spend time counseling) has the understanding and tools necessary for this extremely fragile and dangerous endeavor of working with a troubled mind.

I'm very wary of armchair psychology by people who are trying to be helpful but don't really know what they are doing, yet I often find myself in the position of, like you, wanting to do something to help, not knowing exactly what to say or do, and having no psychologist in the cabinet that I can whip out and flip on.

It's a big growth process. Empathizing doesn't come naturally to me, and one gets a lot of experience at it simply by having friends and spending time with them. Even the ones who don't really have any problems, have problems!

I guess that's life.

xcalibur

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1402 on: November 10, 2011, 01:46:28 am »
Quote
There has indeed been a rise in secularism, but that isn't unique. The Enlightenment era of the 1700's also promoted secular thought and culture, but that did not eliminate organized religion.

To the world's everlasting regret. How cool was the Cult of Reason? How much better might democracies around the world function without religion to dilute human interest in politics, or pervert it altogether (with wedge issues like abortion and other moral crises)? How much less willing would people tolerate oppression if they realized that there is no rosy afterlife awaiting? How radically different might the world be without the religious right existing as a voting bloc in America?

Sigh.

The cult of reason was cool. I've read that they actually wanted to introduce a new calendar with logical structure. they didn't succeed in that, but they did establish the metric system, which most of the world uses (except the US which is trolling everyone).

all of those are valid concerns. religion definitely isn't all bad. but in its worse forms, it does very strange things to peoples minds, which often impedes constructive progress.



Ah, but religious faith is not the only form which faith can take! It is simply the most dramatic and the most dangerous. Other forms of faith do not invoke the divine and thus are, if nothing else, not subject to claims of divine authority. Faith-based thinking occurs throughout life, even in people who are not religious if they do not take care.
faith-based thought can apply to many areas, that is true. but religious faith does seem to have a natural pull to it, given its history and near ubiquity.

Quote
Although I used the word "century" earlier, to refer to some of the most radical changes for the general population as a result of religion's weakening grasp, all of this is a derivative of the Enlightenment and the ensuing Industrial Revolution. In a sense, we're still in that period now.

maybe so, although we're getting into broad historiography here. I'm not sure if I would credit all the changes to a decline in religion, although rationalism has taken us far.

Quote
Probably correct, and, in any case, very probably the basis for the best policies moving forward. Even I would not outlaw religion simply because it is religion. What I would do is prevent religion from meddling with the affairs of state, and relieve children from the indoctrination of their parents through a stronger public education. That will minimize religion without criminalizing its adherents.

I'll agree with that.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

and secular humanism would be a great philosophy for the future. even that won't replace religion, though - not with so many people dedicated to it, such as hafiz who memorize every word and syllable of the quran. but it could be a very viable alternative.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 01:48:57 am by xcalibur »

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1403 on: November 10, 2011, 01:26:47 pm »
My guiding ethical principal is Socrates' dictum "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." It's hard for me to express the outrage I feel at this report:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/10/animal_extinction/

Due to the ignorance of superstitious individuals, who, in spite of all ignorance, clung to the belief that rhino horns had restorative properties, the Western Black rhino has been poached to extinction. A pox on everyone who participated in or condoned this senseless genocide. Ignorance impoverishes the world.

There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.

Synchronization

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1404 on: November 10, 2011, 02:28:01 pm »
I hate that being a Chrono Trigger fan never seems to be enough to warrant an automatic joint gaming session between myself and a fellow fan. 

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1405 on: November 10, 2011, 03:50:45 pm »
My guiding ethical principal is Socrates' dictum "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.
Off topic, but pertaining to your principal: There are two kinds of 'Ignorance', one being the 'innocent' kind and the other being the 'evil' kind. The former is one that cannot be helped, since it resides within every life-form in existence, even those who think they know everything. Do you mean the other one or ignorance in general? XD

As for knowledge being 'good', it is also capable of destruction and chaos. In which case 'knowledge' is neither good nor evil, but a commodity to set events in motion or build/destroy stuff.

Back to topic....

 :picardno

That Rhino-horn case again, aye? I thought these people learned their already, but now we lost another beautiful species. And now that it's extinct, the poachers are probably gonna overprice it because "fuck you, Rhinos". Dear, Jove...

Quote
The study found that despite the best efforts of animal conservationists, one-quarter of the world's mammals are now endangered.

The western black rhino is a sub-species of Black rhino which has been poached to extinction by criminal gangs who want to trade the animals' valuable horns.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1406 on: November 10, 2011, 07:44:21 pm »
My guiding ethical principal is Socrates' dictum "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."

I remember when I first saw this from Socrates. At that point I had already come up with my own definition of evil, "ignorance or willful ignorance," and I remember putting a pretty big feather in my cap that day. I was more susceptible to the conceits of being validated by the great geniuses of history by independently reproducing and indeed improving upon their work--as not only had I identified the two forms of ignorance with clarity and brevity, but had done so with great ease.

I'm not sure that he's right about the definition of good, though. Unless one uses an unproductively broad sense of the word "knowledge," there is more to it than just knowledge, as indeed I would assert that "good" is rather a very complex status condition with multiple prerequisites.

As for our mass extinction of animals (and plants and others), I do think about that on occasion. So much loss, and these are lineages that are never going to come back. I'm not one to say that life should be preserved simply because it is life, but neither should we be destroying species with complete unawareness or indifference about it, and no positive reason directly relating to it, and plenty of ways to offset the destruction while pursuing our economic goals.

It's enough to make a person sad.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1407 on: November 11, 2011, 11:22:04 pm »
As a general rule, I tend to operate more under an "Ignorance is the root of all evil and knowledge is the root of all good" than the strict Socratic dictum. This handles Tushantin's two types of ignorance issue, as it still holds when someone well meaning causes harm out of ignorance. As for the case of good, I'm generally comfortable considering good as deliberate enrichment, which might be a bit vague for you, Josh. I hope this helps clarify a bit, although as I'm fighting off illness, I can't guarantee philosophical rigor at the moment.

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1408 on: November 12, 2011, 07:52:56 am »
Brother's birthday today, but one of his good friends' father had his shoulder fractured while another friend broke his ankle. Weird way to start a happy day...

I told his friend to go and rest for two whole months, but he cared more about not disappointing my brother. "Party today, plaster tomorrow".

Don't know if I should be happy or sad. The guy can't even walk.

tushantin

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Re: Stuff you hate
« Reply #1409 on: November 12, 2011, 10:32:49 pm »
My fingers are too small for my violin. Why can't I pour water on em and make em grow like other things?