Chrono Time

[AuraTwilight]

Tard. How dare you think such a thiing. Lucca was the one who started to make a time egg, not only that but change the circuitry of the Mother Brain circuit and did all this other stuff. She is not the "ignorant" and "uninformed" one. YOU ARE. STFU and stop defying GAME EVIDENCE. I think you have already forgotten that the Chrono Series Analysis topics are base don logic and game evidence, and anything else is a theory. In my definition, the only plot hole was the rest of the games time travelling methods. But really, you know, no one in Crono and co's past was really in danger so hence they could not be wiped from history.

Zapar, stop talking before you get yourself banned for harassment. He wasn't trying to say that Lucca was an idiot, but that she was just recently introduced to the field of time travel. How can she possibly be a time travel expert when it was invented but a mere 15 minutes ago? The Time Egg and Mother Brain are, yes, projects Lucca undertakes after becoming more experienced and competent with quantum machinery. Apparently, you don't know what "ignorant" and "uninformed" really mean, so how about STFU'ing out of courtesy? He denied no game evidence, but made an ingenius insight into Lucca's character that uncomplicates the Marle Paradox by a good margin.

However, if I am not mistaken, he never claimed his "ignorant Lucca" statement was fact. You just took it that way. Hypocrite much?

As for Elements and Magic. They are what hold the world together. Everything is made up of them. The Elements are more of the Earths power, as that is from where it is derived. As for Magic, it holds the universe together. Elements aren't manmade, they just harnessed into another use.

Magic does not hold the universe together. The Elements do. Magic is merely the manipulation of these elements against their natural order.

[Sentenal]

Tard. How dare you think such a thiing. Lucca was the one who started to make a time egg, not only that but change the circuitry of the Mother Brain circuit and did all this other stuff. She is not the "ignorant" and "uninformed" one. YOU ARE. STFU and stop defying GAME EVIDENCE. I think you have already forgotten that the Chrono Series Analysis topics are base don logic and game evidence, and anything else is a theory. In my definition, the only plot hole was the rest of the games time travelling methods. But really, you know, no one in Crono and co's past was really in danger so hence they could not be wiped from history.

Wow, Zaper, name calling agian?

At the very begining of Chrono Trigger, had Lucca started making a Time Egg?  Or FATE from Mother Brain?  No?  Had she done anything with time, other than ACCIDENTALLY discovering a means of time travel?  At the start of CT, had she done lots of research and experiment with time travel?  The answer to all these questions is:  No, she had not.  She was not an authority on Time Travel at the start of CT.  Hell, when she made the "Plot-hole" claim, she hadn't even returned to the present to observe any changes!  She made an assumtion, a hypothesis, a guess.  And later in-game evidence that you cast aside because it doesn't support your ideas of non-consistant time travel, show that Lucca's inital hypothesis (really, not even that, as a hypothesis is an educated guess) was wrong.

BTW, Zaper, I have a question for you:  Do you believe that Magus created Lavos?  Lucca also said that before being proven wrong.  Point is, take what the game gives you, and then grade its credibilty based on the rest of the game.

[Chrono'99]

BTW, Zaper, I have a question for you:  Do you believe that Magus created Lavos?  Lucca also said that before being proven wrong.  Point is, take what the game gives you, and then grade its credibilty based on the rest of the game.

One could argue that in the "Marle paradox" case, Lucca was never textually proven wrong. On the one hand, Lucca says that Magus created Lavos, and later someone says "no, Magus didn't create Lavos" and thus proves Lucca wrong. But on the other hand, when Lucca claims something about the "Marle paradox", nobody ever says the contrary. Actually, Lucca still believes in her explanation even at the end of the game when she worries that Robo could suddenly disappear because of some time paradox.

EDIT: grammar, typos.

[Zaperking]

I know that Lavos wasn't created by Magus because that was one of the things that everyone in the game was duped over. But then they found out who really did.

As for Lucca in the beginning of the game.. Hello... She built a Gate Key!
You do realise that Lucca was never once proven wrong on her idea of time travel? If for any reason she was, then I'd agree with you. But because she wasn't, you can't deny game evidence.

Lucca, Belthasar and Schala are the only smart people in the series who can explain time travel. Lucca did, Belthasar did not, and Schala implied that Time Travelling is possible with or without the Entities help and that there are heaps of other dimensions. I'd think that Lucca and Schala would have credibility more than anyone here. Lucca doesn't like to admit when she makes mistakes, but does. Schala was enlightened over the 13,000 years and figured a whole thing out about everyones existance Oo. That end game quote was very deep.

[Sentenal]

Lucca built a Gate Key.  Do you even know what that does?  It opens a portal.  She found a way to duplicate a phenomenon that occured with her telepod.  And being able to do that, Lucca is now an authority on time travel at that point?!

Every instance of time travel after the "marle paradox" disproves what Lucca said.  She was arguing causality.  FACT.  Here is proof that causality doesn't work to effect time travelers, its been said agian, however you ignore it along with every other piece of evidence:

Crono and co time travel to 2300, see a video of Lavos destroying the world.  They precede on their quest to stop Lavos.  They destroy Lavos, Lavos doesn't destroy the world.  But wait!  Now there isn't a video of Lavos destroying the world!  So when Crono time travels to 2300, there is no video to watch, and no quest to destroy Lavos, so nobody defeats Lavos in 1999, so Lavos destroys the world.  A causal loop.  Not happening.

I would also like to direct you to the ingame evidence of the sealed chests, but you don't like ingame evidence that explicit that destroys your flawed arguement.

Hell, for fun, lets break apart Lucca's explination to show that its flawed in its self.  After all, you don't believe in Time Travelers Immunity.

According to Lucca, Marle disappears because when Marle time traveled back to 600ad, the kingdom called off their search for Leene, so she was killed.  Okay, why should that change not be instantanious to the future?  Changes in the past instantly effect a future which is built off the past.  If Marle time travels to the past, and erases herself from history, this change should INSTANTLY remove Marle from ever being in 1000ad.  Therefore Marle would not be able to time travel to 600ad, and therefore Leene would be rescued... Wait, your line of thought gives us another impossible causal loop.  But Marle doesn't disappear until after Lucca time travels back.  Hell, Marle disappears before Leene dies!  Leene is still alive, and Marle is erased!  And why did Marle not disappear until after Lucca arrived.  When Leene is saved, why did Marle not instantly reappear?  She only does when Crono enters the room.

This entire situtation that you love is full of inconsistancies in itself.  You know how to solve all of these?  Lucca was ignorant to Time Physics, and it was the Entity that removed her.  Problems solved.

[Zaperking]

What?

There doesn't need to be another Crono and co. After Lavos is destroyed in 1999AD and the travellers go back to their time, they've completed their quest. If a Crono and co. before them went to the Fair and Crono met Marle, and by your logic with the entity opening the gates, then Marle's pendant would not have opened a gate up because the Entity was saved. The only Crono and co who do watch the video are the ones who end up saving the future, as Lavos is erased from all of time, or atleast from ever appearing in the future. Crono and co. going to the future, watching the video, defeating Lavos then another Crono and Co like you said going to the future etc is a casual loop >.>

Please kindly explain to me about this sealed chest phenomenon before you judge me on how my ideas work. I've never heard the theory, hence I don't know what you're talking about.

You know what, you've hardly even read what I said.
Okay, this is just an idea.
In this case, Marle is absorbed into the DBT because Leene was not going to be rescued by anyone. Marle dissapeared infront of Crono because that point in time (if it was Chronological) Yakra probably told Leene something like he'd kill her or something. And because no one was fated to find the real Leene because everyone thought that Marle was Leene, Leene never would be saved. So Marle dissapears, thats why. When Lucca appears and finds the Guardia Pin, and resues Leene and Leene being found is how time originally acted out, caused Marle to return because she will be born.

Also, just because Marle dissapears from 1000AD doesn't mean it affects 2300AD. Time may progress whilst people time travel, you know. Marle going in the time stream from 600AD to 1000AD might print an image of her in the time stream, and when she arrives in 2300AD, it's as if she'd never left 1000AD.
Also, The Marle reappearing only when Crono comes in is just plot building of their relationship. If it was real, then you'd notice that Marles body was coming back from the DBT, piece by piece, and when Crono finally walked up to her, there was enough time passed for the whole body to have been remade.

[Mystik3eb]

Dude, Zaper, it looks like you didn't read his post. If Lucca's first theory about Marle was right, then the game's story would've crashed IMMEDIATELY as soon as Marle went back in time. Unless you wanna call that a plothole, too. Sentenal's right, just because Lucca figured out exactly what calculations and whatnot that got the already-present gate to open at will didn't make her understand exactly what she was doing or what she was working with. In fact, she wasn't even positive until she walked into the castle and realized for sure. Then she made a theory, that was proven false by every event in the game, based on Sentenal's explanation.

Sentenal didn't say there were more than one group of Crono and co. He said that if Lucca's original theory was right, then there never would've been a video documenting Lavos' destruction of the world, so Crono and co never would've seen it, and a big-ass paradox exists. Obviously things can be changed in a way Lucca didn't quite grasp in her initial understanding of time travel and time changing, right? This seems to heavily support the TTI theory, as far as I understand it.

To be honest, I'm not sure what Sentenal's point about the sealed chests was...would you mind elaborating on that, please?

Then your explanation of what happened with Marle was...well, it showed a lack of comprehension of the overall effect of time. In 1000 AD, everything in 600 AD has already happened. All of it. Right? Or it wouldn't be 400 years later. That would've all already happened, making it supposedly impossible. If Leene had indeed been killed in 600 AD, what understandable explanation is she would've returned to a time where she had never been born, much like how Serge went into a dimension where at that same point in time as the dimension he had come from, he had been dead 10 years. See what I'm saying?

The bit about Marle being returned bit by bit isn't totally insane, but it seems to fit more with your idea of relationship development between characters applied properly by the Entity, not simply because it 'takes time to reassemble the body returning from the DBT'. If Serge and party retreat from the battle with TD, you don't see them being reattached each time they leave and return, do you?

About Lucca: Lucca was brilliant, we all know that. But she wasn't always as knowledgeable and experienced as she is by CC. She was constantly learning all the time. She was just as human as everyone else was.

[Chrono'99]

I still think it's weird that after having being proven wrong by everything in the adventure, Lucca still believes that Robo could disappear at the end of the game because of the new future.

[Zaperking]

W-w-wait. I'm getting really confused now.

So Sentenal is saying that by Lucca's example, Crono and co would have never seen the Video? Explain to me why.... When Crono and co defeat Lavos, there is no need for anyone to go into the future. As the Crono and co (for example 30 days before the adventure) would have never have gone into the time travelling theme, but that would be in their own timeline with no Lavos, that was secured by Crono and co. Otherwise as Sentenal is saying, there would be a loop, but Lucca is making it so there isn't.


I see what you're saying with Serge. But you do know that Serge comes from another dimension, not a time line. It doesn't matter if Serge was killed in that dimension because he is a different person from that dimension. He's like Kid, someone whos outside of that dimensions timeline.

As for Marle coming back piece by piece, it's just an example. It could have just been the graphics. Maybe it would be more suitable if some kind of light was coming in from nowhere, and once it was apparated when Crono got to her, then it was Marle.
But also with Serge and crew, they weren't evicted from the DBT, they would have used the Time Egg to leave. Whilst Marle would have been pulled into there, then ejected from her frozen state. That was kind of why she said she felt cold, as if she was dead, because she didn't exist like those timelines in the DBT.

As for Lucca. I will never deny her. I'm going on her strict game evidence. An actual quote on the insight of time travel. Lucca made the theory up once Crono explained what happaned. And Lucca then remembered what happened in the past with Leene, and how Marle must have dissapeared if Leene was going to die.
Lucca has proven that she is never wrong., or atleast is always on the right track. It took her only a few hours to fix up a robot whose technology was beyond hers. Comprehending time would be as simple as she changed the Mother Brain circuit, made her own proto type time egg and space capsule etc.
If for instance there was a quote that said that Lucca was wrong, i'd believe you. Examples in the game where Lucca's principles do not work are the plot holes, because THEY're not explained.
Really, in anime/game laws The Smartest person is never wrong. Just like how the oldest is always the most experianced and strongest to some degree.

[AuraTwilight]

So Sentenal is saying that by Lucca's example, Crono and co would have never seen the Video? Explain to me why.... When Crono and co defeat Lavos, there is no need for anyone to go into the future. As the Crono and co (for example 30 days before the adventure) would have never have gone into the time travelling theme, but that would be in their own timeline with no Lavos, that was secured by Crono and co. Otherwise as Sentenal is saying, there would be a loop, but Lucca is making it so there isn't.

But if Lucca's idea holds any ground, then there would be a loop. Pay attention.

I see what you're saying with Serge. But you do know that Serge comes from another dimension, not a time line. It doesn't matter if Serge was killed in that dimension because he is a different person from that dimension. He's like Kid, someone whos outside of that dimensions timeline.

But he's from A timeline none the less, and when he goes to Another and begins excercizing his will there, he becomes an important part of the timeline.

As for Lucca. I will never deny her. I'm going on her strict game evidence. An actual quote on the insight of time travel. Lucca made the theory up once Crono explained what happaned. And Lucca then remembered what happened in the past with Leene, and how Marle must have dissapeared if Leene was going to die.
Lucca has proven that she is never wrong., or atleast is always on the right track. It took her only a few hours to fix up a robot whose technology was beyond hers. Comprehending time would be as simple as she changed the Mother Brain circuit, made her own proto type time egg and space capsule etc.
If for instance there was a quote that said that Lucca was wrong, i'd believe you. Examples in the game where Lucca's principles do not work are the plot holes, because THEY're not explained.

By that logic, animals are spontaniously generated from dirt and stuff, right? Lucca HAS been wrong. Her Leene Theory was flawed, her Time Egg was inferior, the Mother Brain circuit was malfunctional, and hell, all the villagers in the beginning town claim that Lucca's inventions from before the adventure are total bullshit.

Really, in anime/game laws The Smartest person is never wrong. Just like how the oldest is always the most experianced and strongest to some degree.

Now if only Lucca was the smartest person. We have the gurus, Schala, Magus, Starky, the Dragon Gods and FATE, Robo, and so on.

[Sentenal]

So Sentenal is saying that by Lucca's example, Crono and co would have never seen the Video? Explain to me why.... When Crono and co defeat Lavos, there is no need for anyone to go into the future. As the Crono and co (for example 30 days before the adventure) would have never have gone into the time travelling theme, but that would be in their own timeline with no Lavos, that was secured by Crono and co. Otherwise as Sentenal is saying, there would be a loop, but Lucca is making it so there isn't.

I'm still going on your line of thought here:  Why would there be no need for Crono and Co to defeat Lavos in time, after Crono defeats it?  If Crono and co don't defeat it in time, Lavos will destroy the Planet.  In every timeline, there needs to be a Crono appearing to defeat Lavos.  Under your train of thought, this always needs to be a new Crono, however, if you believe in TB, its the original one.

Also, the new Crono that would have had to defeat Lavos would not have seen the video of Lavos destroying the world, because Lavos did not destroy the world.  So he wouldn't defeat Lavos and save the world.  It creates a loop.

And I'm suprised that Zaper doesn't remmber the seal chests one..  Okay, this is not theory, btw, this is fact:  Recall, in 600ad and 1000ad, there are sealed chests.  If you open one of these chests in 600ad and take its contents, that same chest is now gone from 1000ad.  Now, here is the thing;  Lets say you go take the item out of the chest from 1000ad before 600ad.  Then you go to 600ad, and grab the item there.  Does the first one you aquired disappear?  Without TTI, it should.  How can the first one exist if it was removed in the past?  Simple.  That item gained TTI.

In this case, Marle is absorbed into the DBT because Leene was not going to be rescued by anyone. Marle dissapeared infront of Crono because that point in time (if it was Chronological) Yakra probably told Leene something like he'd kill her or something.

But she was.  Apparently, twice.  Just because you say that you are going to kill someone, doesn't mean you will, or you can.

As for Lucca. I will never deny her. I'm going on her strict game evidence. An actual quote on the insight of time travel. Lucca made the theory up once Crono explained what happaned.

Just like how Lucca was proven wrong about Lavos, she was proven wrong there.  After something stated it proven wrong, you dismiss it.

Lucca has proven that she is never wrong., or atleast is always on the right track.

OMG MAGUS CREATED LAVOS!!!11!!

Really, in anime/game laws The Smartest person is never wrong. Just like how the oldest is always the most experianced and strongest to some degree.

You really need to play games/watch anime if thats what you think is a law.

[Zaperking]

Well, In anime laws - I am right. Not sure about game that much anymore >.>

1) W-What? I don't see how having both items proves anything. It could have been an overlooked glitch, or the items transend time. Those sealed chests that some kind of power to them, when something like the pendant opens them.

2) I still don't get it. If Crono and co defeat Lavos, then he's defeated forever. You're saying that Crono and co always have to defeat Lavos, even in the past from where Crono and co arrive like in 1000AD 30 days after their adventure. By your logic that they will never see a video under Lucca's method, we'll she's like right then. If you defeat Lavos, there's already a new timeline in the future of 2300AD. Of course there will be no video. Did you ever think that once Crono and co come back from their adventure, if another Crono exists in the near distant past, when he and Marle go to the fair, nothing will happen with the pendant because the entity has closed the gates (and I know you and Aura believe in it), so they never would get to it. But because those new guys dont have TTI anyway, they will not affect the future of anything, hence a new time line will not be created.

With Leene, her time had run out. In the past, i think, there was a deadline for Frog to basically save Leene. Because he was duped b Marle's impersonation, no one would have saved Leene, and time from there would have played up to 1000AD, and Marle dissapeared. When Lucca arrived, finds the pin and they go on to defeat Yakra, Marle comes back because Leene is rescued like it should have happened. Simple.

Also, it wasn't just Lucca on the Lavos thing, it was all of Crono and co who were duped. But she was on the right track. She thought that Lavos was created in 600AD because of what Magus did. But he only summoned him, and did not actually create him. Anyone would get that wrong.

[Databyne]

You cannot apply general laws of anime to the Chrono Universe. First of all Chrono Trigger is older than many animes. Second of all, it's its own game. It isn't dependant on anime plot lines.

Zaper, before you make another post, make sure you re-read the entire topic conversation. Lucca doesn't have to be proven wrong by a direct quote. If I say that pigs fly, and no one corrects me, pigs won't suddenly be able to fly. What everyone is saying is that Lucca isn't right 100% of the time. She first opened a gate by sheer accident. She never explains her theories of time to gamers. What Lucca says to Robo is out of worry. Anyone with loved ones can relate to the fact that sometimes worry exists for irrational things.

Zaper, you are getting confused by the examples people are using to prove you wrong. When they say "By defeating Lavos, Crono and Co. never see him. Thus, Lavos lives," they are using an ABSURD situation to examplify the fact that Lucca is wrong about time. Lavos is gone in Crono's dimension. Marle's case was an extrordinary situation that never appears again in the game.

[Sentenal]

Zaper, I think I see your flawed chain of though with your confusion about Lavos.  Your thinking this, "Wait, Lavos was killed in his Pocket Dimension, hes gone forever!"  You see, Lavos came out of his pocket dimension a few times.  He had to in order for History not to change.

Lavos emerged in 12000bc, at the fall of Zeal.  He emerged in 600ad, to smit Magus.  And finally, he emerged temporarily in 1999ad, to destroy the world.  But wait, Crono and co fought him in his pocket dimension!  When Lavos emerged in 1999ad, he was clearly not in his pocket dimension.  Only when he was charged by Crono and Co did he fall back into his pocket dimension.  And that was simply because he knew how strong they had become.  If Crono and co never engaged Lavos in 1999ad, Lavos would not have retreated into his Pocket Dimension.  When Lavos is killed inside the Pocket Dimension, it erases him from all the time he was in his pokcet dimension, not normal time.  He still emerged in 12000bc, 600ad, and 1999ad.

And your also trying to use some weird "I use elements of TTI, TB, Anti-TTI, and Anti-TB all in one" theory.  Its total inconsistant...

[Silvercry]

I had a feeling that the Marle Paradox would come up in this thread.

There is one theory that could potentially explain away the Marle Paradox: The so called Temporal Inertia theory.  It was explained on one of the main site’s articles.  For your convenience, I'll reprint it here:

Imagine the time change as a linear event, passing through the four
centuries between 600 and 1000. We would see it reaching Marle's birth
before it reached the moment her pendant influenced the Telepods. This
explains why Crono and Lucca didn't disappear right when Marle did. Of
course, if we waited around long enough, we'd see Crono disappear too,
and a moment later Lucca.  
 
However, while the time change is changing history, Crono and Lucca
have however long it takes for the change to travel from Marle's birth
to when she met Crono to restore history. Otherwise, they'll get stuck
in an infinity loop. If we're vague enough about the amount of time
Marle spent in 600 before Crono arrived, and about the amount of time
it takes for Crono and Lucca to find Marle and then rescue Leene, they
have enough time to find Leene and restore history before the time
change erases Marle's influence in 1000 AD. Once the timeline is
restored, the paradox is no longer a threat, which means neither Crono
nor Lucca will disappear, and which means Marle should reappear, just
as she did in Trigger.  
 
The idea of Crono, Marle, and Lucca lasting for an unspecified amount
of time and then disappearing, as opposed to disappearing
instantaneously, is my idea of temporal inertia. They effectively
resist the change in their temporal momentum, but they ultimately can't
resist the change.

Another, more well known and visual example would be Marty's near dissperance in Back To the Future Part 1.  By interrupting his parent’s first meeting in 1955, her erases his own existence.  However, the change happens slowly, as shown by the picture of him with his two older siblings.  The oldest sibling begins to disappear first, followed by the middle child, then himself, as the temporal inertia ripples slowly 'forward'.  Had he not hooked his parents back up, he would have disappeared, followed shortly there after by the picture itself.

Apply this 'logic' to Chrono Trigger's Marle Pardox, and we see the same result.  Time moves on, reaching Nadia's birth long before it reaches the Millennia Fair.  Poof, no Marle.  And had the timeline not been reset with the defeat of Yakra, then poof, no Crono or Lucca in 600AD, as there would have been no runaway princess with a dreamstone pendant to get the ball rolling.

Temporal Inertia has the potential to explain away the two major plot holes of CT: The Marle Paradox, and the presence of Old Decrepit Doan at the Moonlit Parade.  As we under stand the game’s nature of time, the instant Crono defeated Lavos, Doan's whole world should have been banished to the DBT.  Temporal Inertia is the only possible explanation for his presence at the end of the game.  Plus, this could explain Lucca's concern for Robo returning to a 2400 AD in which he may no longer exists

Of course there are some problems with the Temporal Inertia theory.  First of all, it would still cause causality loops, which we know for a fact do not exist in the Chrono universe.  The very existence of Chrono Cross is proof enough of that.  Also, to quote GrayLensman in the same article:

In Chrono Trigger, any change to the past results in a new timeline being created instantaneously. Your theory suggests that once a change is made to the past, the future timeline will gradually change to accommodate that change, but this is just not the case.

In 1000 AD, the Mayor of Porre is greedy and obnoxious. By giving his ancestor the jerky in 600 AD, a new timeline is created where he is generous. When the travelers return to 1000 AD, the Mayor doesn't gradually become nicer. The new timeline instantly expressed itself the moment Crono made the change in 600 AD: the Mayor was always generous.

In 600 AD, Robo chose to stay in the past to help Fiona replant the forest. When the travelers warp to 1000 AD, the forest does not slowly appear. This is an even better example because the forest is not replenished in 600 AD, but years afterwards. The new timeline, containing the changes made by the travelers in 600 AD, and Robo over four hundred years, already exists in 1000 AD.

The list goes on and on. Every instance of time travel in the Chrono series behaves in this way.

While it is possible that how ‘instantaneous’ these changes may be are completely dependant on the perspective of the observer, there is no real way to prove that.  At least, I cant see one.