Chrono Time

[Zaperking]

I agree. It's not ‘instantaneous’. You'd actually have to get back to the future before it happens. Just like with destroying Lavos. A new timeline didn't just instantly pop out of nowhere. It was because the future wasn't destroyed, it'd cause a paradox because the destroyer was destroyed. So hence that future was ejected, and from 1999AD time had to progess into the future for it to be created. And when Belthasar got to 2300AD, time had already progressed to that point, so he arrived in a good future.

And I'd like to ask whether or not it actually changes the timeline. From all that we see, it only changes the person in the future, and anyone to do with them, but not the whole timeline except in the good futures case. You need to be highly important to the timeline to actually change the whole timeline's history.

[Sentenal]

Zaper, read this agian:

GrayLensman wrote:
In Chrono Trigger, any change to the past results in a new timeline being created instantaneously. Your theory suggests that once a change is made to the past, the future timeline will gradually change to accommodate that change, but this is just not the case.

In 1000 AD, the Mayor of Porre is greedy and obnoxious. By giving his ancestor the jerky in 600 AD, a new timeline is created where he is generous. When the travelers return to 1000 AD, the Mayor doesn't gradually become nicer. The new timeline instantly expressed itself the moment Crono made the change in 600 AD: the Mayor was always generous.

In 600 AD, Robo chose to stay in the past to help Fiona replant the forest. When the travelers warp to 1000 AD, the forest does not slowly appear. This is an even better example because the forest is not replenished in 600 AD, but years afterwards. The new timeline, containing the changes made by the travelers in 600 AD, and Robo over four hundred years, already exists in 1000 AD.

The list goes on and on. Every instance of time travel in the Chrono series behaves in this way.

I'm sorry Zaper, changes in time are instantious.  You loose.

[Silvercry]

If that’s the case, then please explain Doan’s presence at the Moonlight Parade.  Please.  Its been driving me crazy for the last 10 years now.  If time changes are ‘instant’, then at the exact moment the tip of the Rainbow found its way into the heart of the Lavos Core, Doan’s 2400 AD would have ceased to be, banished to the DBT.  In its place, the saved future would exists, complete with Chronopolis and FATE.  In fact, when Crono and company returned home, El Nido would be off in the ocean somewhere, waiting for them.  TTI protects Robo from blinking out, but Doan should not have been there!  Lucca could travel through time all she wants to gather everyone together for the Parade after Lavos’s defeat, but if she tried to go to the future, she should find a thriving society that may or may not contain a man named Doan.

Please explain.

[Zaperking]

@ Sentenal

It's not instantanious.... They have to travel to 1000AD and by that time, it has grown... Duh! FFS. >.< Time does pass you know, and in 400 Years time, Trees to grow...

And also, The Mayor didn't just become generous. That would only make you prove that the Marle Paradox exists because it was instant.
To deny it, you'd have to say that the Mayor was taught to be generous when he was growing up because his ancestor tought the family to be nice..

[GrayLensman]

To Silvercry:

I think Lucca either retrieved the version of Doan at the Moonlight Parade from the new future or Lucca or from the ruined future before the final battle with Lavos.

[Sentenal]

If that’s the case, then please explain Doan’s presence at the Moonlight Parade.  Please.  Its been driving me crazy for the last 10 years now.  If time changes are ‘instant’, then at the exact moment the tip of the Rainbow found its way into the heart of the Lavos Core, Doan’s 2400 AD would have ceased to be, banished to the DBT.  In its place, the saved future would exists, complete with Chronopolis and FATE.  In fact, when Crono and company returned home, El Nido would be off in the ocean somewhere, waiting for them.  TTI protects Robo from blinking out, but Doan should not have been there!  Lucca could travel through time all she wants to gather everyone together for the Parade after Lavos’s defeat, but if she tried to go to the future, she should find a thriving society that may or may not contain a man named Doan.

Please explain.

Plot hole.

@Zaper:  Your logic is defeating itself!  Okay, the forest had 400 years to grow.  Shouldn't that work agianst Marle even being able to be born and cause Leene to disappear?  There was 400 years for Marle to not be born.

Your trying to have your pie, and eat it too.  Not going to work.  You loose.

[Mystik3eb]

I think Lucca either retrieved the version of Doan at the Moonlight Parade from the new future or Lucca or from the ruined future before the final battle with Lavos.

Or she brought Doan back from the new future and dressed him up in rags, gave him a cane, and ruffled his hair to make him look EXACTLY like the original Doan, so as to not shock Crono, Marle, and/or the players.

But yeah Zaper, you're really confusing yourself here. The argument I believe you're trying to give is that...wait, scratch that. You've combined them impossibly. Here, let's seperate them.

The two theories:

1) When a change occurs in the past, the result immediately shows in the future, meaning that if the forest was indeed planted, the forest would IMMEDIATELY appear fully grown and cared for in 1000 AD. If Leene were indeed never found, Marle would disappear IMMEDIATELY and things would be as if she never were born.

2) When a change occurs in the past, the result slowly comes to show itself, relative to how much farther in the future it was. So if Leene was indeed never found, Marle would slowly start disappearing until she finally winked out (unless we believe in TTI). Once the forest had the first seed planted and work began to make it flourish, one standing in 1000 AD right at that moment would slowly see a forest appearing as if out of nowhere, and in fact their memory would change to have always known the forest existed.

The first one is correct to Chrono...

[tangent ramble]...except for the whole beginning-of-the-game paradox, which I can only explain using my 'Base Timeline' theory as a foundation. I thought that maybe it takes a certain amount of time to actually travel through a gate, and maybe Crono entered the Gate BEFORE Marle exited it, saying that he did indeed still exist in that timeline before it could be cast away like all other changed timelines. Lucca entering would not be changed because Crono would still have gone into the Gate, and she would've followed. However, her memory of WHY she entered the Gate and came back...*shrug*. I think overall this truly is a plothole, like Doan. They weren't QUITE as careful with those in CT as they were in CC. Then again, Kato wasn't the only story/scenario writer, so...^_^[/tanget ramble]

The second one is correct to Back to the Future. They don't both coincide.

[Zaperking]

Well, Do the peolpe always know that the black omen was there? I can't remember. I don't think it was explicidly stated that it had always been there, but there is some guy who said he likes the way that it shines.

What I was trying to say that it's not there until the time travellers get to 1000AD. So for the next 400 years it had to grow, and Robo was the one who saw it all grow, besides the people of 600AD. That way, the people who are in 1000AD would have know it to be there all their lives, because it was there all their lives.
What you're saying is that it just pops out of nowhere and everyone just thinks it was always there. Hello, there are 400 years that seperate 600AD and 1000AD.

BTW, Doan in the future wouldn't be the Doan that we know, hence Lucca wouldn't bring him back. And if Lucca did go to 2300AD, then she'd encounter Belthasar probably (possible way they talked about FATE etc.?) But Doan wouldn't be the same Doan. Heck, some people were only born because others died! Doan probably might not even exist in the new future because someone else might have lived and his ansestors may have fallen inlove with them instead.
So Lucca got him out of a dead time line. That or the future didn't change till 1000AD advanced. So that would go back to my idea that the equivalent of 999 years would have to pass till Lavos is destroyed, and then another 301 till it gets to 2300AD. The world doesn't have TTI, as you people who believe in it. Only Crono and co do.

[Silvercry]

If Doan's presence is a plot hole, so is Marle's disappearance.  The official Compendium theory is that the Entity 'detained' Marle in order to get the quest started.  Upon what game evidence is this based?  

And GrayLensman, a Doan from the saved future would not know Lucca, or that his future ever needed saving.  So his line “You saved the future and brought us hope.” line proves that she didn’t retrieve him from the saved timeline.  Likewise, the player has a pretty good tab on Lucca through the whole game.  I think we’d notice a quick hop to the future to pick up and old man on the off chance that they might kill Lavos in ‘time’ for the Moonlight Parade.  After all, there was no guarantee they would win as far as the characters were concerned: in fact, the opposite was much more likely to their frame of reference.  They fought Lavos once before in Zeal, and were quite handily defeated.

[Sentenal]

Well, Do the peolpe always know that the black omen was there? I can't remember. I don't think it was explicidly stated that it had always been there, but there is some guy who said he likes the way that it shines.

Once the Black Omen is there, no one explicitly states that it had always been there, but people speak of it causally, as if it had always been there, commenting on how it sparkles in the sun and such.  Not just isolated incidents, either.

What I was trying to say that it's not there until the time travellers get to 1000AD. So for the next 400 years it had to grow, and Robo was the one who saw it all grow, besides the people of 600AD. That way, the people who are in 1000AD would have know it to be there all their lives, because it was there all their lives.
What you're saying is that it just pops out of nowhere and everyone just thinks it was always there. Hello, there are 400 years that seperate 600AD and 1000AD.

No... Thats what your saying about Marle...  Look, heres how I believe time to work in CT.  You have a timeline.  Someone goes back and changes the past.  From the point on to the future, is sent to the DBT.  Like this:
Lets say that the year 600ad = timeX.  Someone time travels to timeX and changes something.  Now, every point in time from timeX>600ad is "discarded" and "replaced" by a new timeline.

Its overwritten with a "new" timeline, one based on the changes made.  Everyone who lives in 1000ad would be "discarded" along with their timeline, and a new one would grow in the former one's place.

The world doesn't have TTI, as you people who believe in it. Only Crono and co do.

What... The... Hell...  Zaper, now its only SELECTIVE TTI!?  Its offical.  You don't know what your talking about.

If Doan's presence is a plot hole, so is Marle's disappearance. The official Compendium theory is that the Entity 'detained' Marle in order to get the quest started. Upon what game evidence is this based?

Its a shameless attempt for consistancy that works.  Its a theory.  No one likes the idea, but its better than accepting a plothole.

[Silvercry]

Its a theory.  No one likes the idea, but its better than accepting a plothole.

Damn it, I hate it when the people I'm arguing with agree with me.  Sure I win, but then the argument ends, and then what do you have?  

So, lets get to work on the Doan plothole now.  

[Sentenal]

The only "workable" one is that Lucca nabbed him before Lavos' defeat.  I don't like that theory because we DO have tabs on Lucca.  Unlike the Marle-plothole, I just don't see any way of explaining Doan other than it being a plothole.

[Chrono'99]

I still don't get why this Doan can't be the Doan from the new future.

[Sentenal]

Well, two reasons.

One, is that he says that they gave them hope, etc etc.  I don't think the new Doan would have met Crono and co, much less have them give him hope.  (hope, as in refering to both defeating Lavos, and getting the seed for them to grow).

Two, is hes dressed in rags.  Sure, maybe they reused a sprite, but it didn't seem like square was afraid to make new sprites in CT, although they did reuse some.

[Silvercry]

Old Decrepit Doan (as I call Doan form the ruined future)  cannot possibly exist in the saved future.  If a Doan exists in the new timeline at all, it would be a different person - Distinguished Healthy Doan, if you will.  

Old Decrepit Doan is just that - old and decrepit - because of the world in which he lived: A world barren of simple resources (like food) as a direct consequence of the Day of Lavos.  Once Lavos was killed, if time changes are indeed 'instant', then that Doan and the world in which he lived ceased to be, replaced by a future that contains many wonders.  Like FATE, for example.

Now, since a countless number of people survived beyond 1999AD due to the actions of Crono and Co, that would in turn mean there would be countless decedents of those people, all the way up to 2400AD.  On the flip side, that means that the people who had survived in the ruined timeline would now, in the saved timeline, have more options when it comes to potential mates to have children of their own.  Thus, there is no guarantee that the chain of ancestor-decadents that would eventualy equal Doan would ever occur.

But lets say that all the right people needed got it on all the way to Doan's birthday.  This new Doan, Distinguished Healthy Doan, would have no knowledge of the ruined future, no memory of Chrono's party bringing him seeds, and no idea why the future would need saving.

Ergo, Moonlight Parade Doan could not be Distinguished Healthy Doan from the good future.  He can ONLY be Old Decrepit Doan.  And therein lies the problem.