Chrono Time

[Databyne]

It is extremely difficult to apply conventional theories of time to the Chrono Universe. Its time physics follow their own laws because they were written that way. Think of every video game as being like a book from Myst: each represents a wholly independent reality which obeys the laws of physics established by its authors.

According to our physics, the Chrono Universe is either impossible or at least vastly over simplified. The details of current theory are murky, nigh impossible to verify, and still hotly debated by scientists as they comprise the core of one the most controversial issues of modern physics.

Chrono Trigger heavily involves the use of a time machine, however currently there is only one design that’s been deemed plausible. The machine design relies on a gravitational loop, which anchors the machine between two points in time (So the machine can only go as far back into the past as its creation, and only go so far into the future as the present). The loop exists for the time machine itself to exist. It cannot go further into the past than its creation because its method of transportation didn't exist thus, it cannot travel. If the Epoch was based on gravity, it could technically only move between 12,000 BC and 2300 AD (assuming that Belthazar had finished the loop at least in 12,000 BC). Odds are the Epoch does not utilize a gravity loop, but then modern physics has currently no other candidates for the job of time travel.

However, assuming that we have a vehicle capable of uninhibited time travel and using the theory of Multiverse. You could return to your time of origin with any changes you made to the past in effect. However, to change the past would be to alter your dimension. Your being is super dimensional, so you are unaffected. Killing your grandfather doesn't eliminate you; it eliminates the "you" of that dimension. In essence, by killing your grandfather, you have made a branch in time, or a slide in dimensions. Should you return to your time of origin, everything that would have resulted from actions of your grandfather has changed. You have merely traveled along the timeline of your "new" dimension. Going back to prevent yourself from killing your grandfather causes a similar dimensional shift. You can only go forward in these dimensional shifts, not back (you don't have the means). Dimensional shifts represent the "fifth" dimension of observation, or motion along and between alternate dimensions and time. (I follow with a brief outline of the dimensions)

[First dimension: a line, we observe motion along one axis; second: a single plane, we observe motion along and between two axes; third: two perpendicular planes, we observe motion along and between three axes; fourth: time, we observe the motion of motion (along and between three axes) along a single superior axis; fifth: multiverse, we observe the motion of motion (along and between three axes) along and between two superior axes; sixth: I have not capacity of explaining this, but theoretically we should observe the motion of motion (along and between three axes) along three superior axes. These are also the dimensions of physics, not of geometry. In geometry, the fourth dimension is a tesseract a.k.a., a hypercube.]

The Multiverse Theory is the application of Quantum Mechanics to macro-physics: just as a photon can occur in multiple instances, so do we occur in multiple dimensions. Just as a photon projected at a sensor is fated to land at point B, we are fated to die; however just as a photon seems to occur in multiple existences at the same time, so do we. Therefore, in one dimension the photon hits point B, and in another it hits point A (We however can still observe this and this principle lies at the heart of contemporary speculation, debate, and theory of micro-physics, and represents one of the principles that Einstein died trying to reconcile with macro-physics). So it is that our death as multiple instances to occur. We choose our course along the fourth and fifth dimensions (though we are incapable of moving backward), and Fate affects more-so the creation of alternate dimensions.

In Multiverse Theory we can reconcile Chrono Trigger. Chrono Cross, however, requires uninhibited motion between two dimensions that accounts for their respective motion along the fourth and fifth dimensional axes. For Chrono Cross to occur, sixth dimensional transportation would be required (the portal at Opassa beach which relies on the intervention of a sixth dimensional being).

For the purpose of the Chrono Universe, time gates are plausible as portals to set time periods. Their motion is linear along the time axis and thus can occur in parallel worlds. The End of Time exists in the context of Chrono Trigger, if we accept that at some point all time lines end, regardless of their dimensional situation. This endpoint exists as the End of Time and would be much like the void after a waterfall. The Bend in Time would be like an eddy, where currents from one time stream swirl, giving access to multiple time points within one dimension.

Or we could say that Chrono Universe physics are similar but different from our own because that's the way that they were written, and go along our merry way. In the end, the designers of the Chrono Universe have creative license. They can say that there exists a continent in Chrono Cross that wasn’t in Chrono Trigger. They can say that time turns lead into gold on the third Tuesday of every year in which the digits add up to 66. It’s their world. We simply chose to see it in the context of our own.

[Databyne]

I forget whose idea the gravitational loop is, but it is not mine. You could probably find out who it is by looking through the archives of Discover magazine or Technology Review magazine (I forget which).

The multiverse is physicist David Deutsch's theory. Its principles were settled by Sir Isaac Newton, Max Planck, and Albert Einstein.

Application of the multiverse theory and the definitions of time are mine. My point is, if you wish argue about the accuracy or validity of my points, these who I state here are my sources, take up any factual issues you have with what I've posted, with who is most directly associated with your issue. (I don't want to prove that time travel using a gravitational loop is possible).

[Mystik3eb]

...wow. I'm quite impressed. Wonderful analyzation! This kinda post should make Zeality jump in his chair with joy after some of the other threads getting so much attention. Nice stuff, dude. I noticed much, if not all, of the things you talked about have been thunked out (no, not a real word, but it works...) in my head trying to wonder and explain the phenomenon that is the Chrono-verse.

Edit: I just realized your perfect nickname would be Data. That's just so awesome in so many ways. ^_^

[Zaperking]

Finally, someone who thinks rather than tags along with other peoples theories. Thank You. Finally I have another topic to look at, other than resorting to looking at the general section.

I'll just say one thing:
The creaters of the Chrono series might not have even been expecting people like us to make up theories like TTI, TB etc. To them, the way things worked was because they thought it did. As for example with me, I don't believe in TTI or TB. I just think that because we never get to go back to a point in time where they see themselves, that's why it's so easy to say that TB exists.

Flash thought: WE DID SEE OURSELVES! TIME EGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as for TTI, I actually go along with what Lucca said. If your grandparents are endanger etc, you will face extermination. It's just that we never had a chance to kill off any ancestors to cause such a chaos theory etc. And I think that maybe half way during the game, the creators maybe forgot what they had set up in the beginning.
SquareEnix does have the final say XD

[Sentenal]

I guess it was inveitable for someone to advicate a plot hole here...

Data, I think your discription of the "Multiverse", in where you are time travelling to the past is pretty accurate.  With the exception of Zaper's favorite plot-hole that destroys consistancy, its consistant with much of the series.  I would only add that the "old" dimensions, or "old" timelines are said to be discarded.

As for CC, and dimensions there...  I have no idea how to apply physics there.

And for time traveling, the gates are portals to a set time.  I assume the Epoch also makes use of gates.  You can only use the Epoch to travel to set time periods, and only ones you have used a gate to.

[Zaperking]

^ Hahaha it's your 1337 post Sentenal.

The only thing weird about the Epoch is that people say it works by time gates, whilst it doesn't even arrive where the gates set you to. Especially after it gets it's wings, you can pretty much arrive in any place, away from the actual gate. It's possible that those are just the only times accessable by the Chrono Team, you know.

[AuraTwilight]

Wooooooooa. That's a nice analysis. However, it's not a plothole for one simple reason. Magic

[Lazarus Plus]

I think it's safe to say that however the laws of physics and quantum mechanics limits us in the real world, the introduction of various "elements" and magic render those concerns unnessecary.

[Databyne]

Again, magic makes the Chrono Universe escape loop holes. Gamers can't necessarily complain that the makers of the Chrono Universe make no sense with the application of their physics because magic makes no sense. However, I don't think magic was Balthazar’s field of expertise. Balthazar (please correct me if I err) was the Guru of Reason. He dealt with physical reality. The blackbird, a giant flying MACHINE, was Balthazar’s invention. If the man had interested himself in magic, he could have simply made a giant flying rug with maybe a hot tub. Surely the epoch was not dependant upon magic for its functions.

So much of the Enlightened One's world involved a strange coexistence of magic and machine. The floating islands themselves bring to question what kept them afloat. But if they were magic, would they have fallen when Lavos emerged? We can accept that the Mountain of Woe was magic because the Guru of Life's escape seemed to break an enchantment. But couldn't a computer algorithm have completed such a similar self-destruct command? The Enlightened Ones note that the only thing that differentiated them from the Earthbound Ones was magic, but did magic come before machine? Or did machine allow for the discovery of magic, which then led to the oppression of the magic-less Earthbound Ones?

I feel that machine came first. It seems impossible that magic should have been discovered without sensors to identify Lavos. Similarly, the Enlightened Ones note that it was under Queen Zeal that magic truly flourished, hinting that magic was still a rising power that no one yet fully understood. The Gurus' ranges of expertise were of philosophy and machine, not the super natural. The Earthbound Ones would have been the underclass, they did not have access to resources or methods to process them; the elite of the society then profited under the discovery of magic, furthering the divide between the classes.

Time travel never associates with the super natural in the Chrono Universe. Lavos can have an affect on the time stream merely because of the immense energy he has collected. Whatever the "entity" is, its affect on time is most likely due to an enormous energy supply or sixth dimensional control.

The elements of Chrono Cross are not super natural as they are man made. They probably are similar to the precursors of the Enlightened One's magic. Remember, history always repeats itself. As elements have prices, the underclass would get cut out of the benefits. With further and further advancements, elements would become magic. Maybe Lavos' destruction of the world exists as a way of keeping magic in check? Maybe Lavos are sent to every new planet. Maybe something triggered the Chrono Lavos to behave in a way that did not suite its purpose, requiring its elimination. Like a corrupt program is eliminated in a computer, or a dysfunctional cell within the human body. A destroyed Lavos would then require a replacement -- something stronger and more stable.

Or maybe Lavos simply represents a malevolent alien species driven only by the instinct to reproduce. In that sense, Lavos is a planetary virus.

The Gateways that Crono and crew use cannot be the only ones in existence. The Epoch probably uses other gateways that exist in the sky or may even be too small for the crew to see (they need to see a gate after all, before they can use it with the key). Now why it had to be those set times... well will let Chrono Cross sequel tell us. If you go by the theory that Lavos was intentionally placed on earth as a safety against magic's misuse, then those times are the most relevant and vital to addressing the issue and CONVINCING Crono and crew that something in their world needs fixing. If Crono and crew went too far when they destroyed Lavos (perhaps they were meant to weaken it), then maybe their elimination would be required, and a grand dimensional manipulation required to set the necessary safeties back on line.

Or Lavos is just the villain for a clever video game that convinces its players that there are worlds within worlds and what they play is only scratching the surface of the game's true story.

Or I digress. Time, is what we will it to be. Its conception in the Chrono Universe was arbitrary. Marle is affected by a paradox that occurs no where else. Were the theories of Chrono Trigger in check, destroying Lavos should have made everything the crew had done disappear (as Lavos had never destroyed the world, thus Crono and crew would never have journeyed). If we accept that a change in dimension can eliminate such paradoxes, then why was Marle removed? We must then accept that Chrono Time is not our own time and thus indefinable.

Or we say that some exterior being removed Marle. Recall what she says. She wasn't dead. Her consciousness was intact. And yet she disappeared from the space time continuum into nothing. Not long afterward, she reappears. Who then could have removed her, creating this non-sensible seeming paradox? The "entity"? A Crono and crew that comes from a future time? Another group?

Or maybe the programmers just wanted an engaging mini plot, never suspecting the damage their choices would wreck further along the time line.

[Zaperking]

OMG... I really like this guy.

Whatever the Guru's do, I think they encorperate magic with it. Belthasar made the Black Bird fly from his genious. Whilst Chronopolis and FATE were stated to have been built because Belthasar was able to combine his magic and technology to create something as superiorly powerful as FATE.

As for the Chrono Cross... Like every element, it is the physical embodiment of the power. Elements are forged at special spots in the world where the power of the Earth resonates heavily. In the Dragonian dimension, these power spots were used to create elements, and there was probably a time where they combined each of the elements to create the Dragon Tear or something. The Dragon God itself was the actual living embodiment of the elements. So in other words, the power that it holds is super natural, and came from such a place. It was just that the dragonians were able to use it to their own desire.

As for Lavos, I don't think he came to control magic. It was his fault that the humans developed it. Their contact with the Frozen Flame mutated them into being able to harness it if they knew how. It also advanced their brains ahead of what should have been.

[AuraTwilight]

However, I don't think magic was Balthazar’s field of expertise. Balthazar (please correct me if I err) was the Guru of Reason. He dealt with physical reality. The blackbird, a giant flying MACHINE, was Balthazar’s invention. If the man had interested himself in magic, he could have simply made a giant flying rug with maybe a hot tub. Surely the epoch was not dependant upon magic for its functions.

All three of the Guru's were master magicians. It's just that Belthasar did both Magic AND Machine

Time travel never associates with the super natural in the Chrono Universe. Lavos can have an affect on the time stream merely because of the immense energy he has collected. Whatever the "entity" is, its affect on time is most likely due to an enormous energy supply or sixth dimensional control.

Heh. What about Magus's ritual? The Time Egg? The Chrono Cross?

The elements of Chrono Cross are not super natural as they are man made. They probably are similar to the precursors of the Enlightened One's magic. Remember, history always repeats itself. As elements have prices, the underclass would get cut out of the benefits. With further and further advancements, elements would become magic. Maybe Lavos' destruction of the world exists as a way of keeping magic in check? Maybe Lavos are sent to every new planet. Maybe something triggered the Chrono Lavos to behave in a way that did not suite its purpose, requiring its elimination. Like a corrupt program is eliminated in a computer, or a dysfunctional cell within the human body. A destroyed Lavos would then require a replacement -- something stronger and more stable.

They're supernatural by definition of the word because they contradict natural order. They're manmade (technically Dragonian made, who may have invented them shamanically.) but they draw on magical energies in order to function. Also, Lavos wasn't part of the biosphere of the Earth, so he shouldn't logically be replaced like a computer directory or a cell. He's more like a virus.

The Gateways that Crono and crew use cannot be the only ones in existence. The Epoch probably uses other gateways that exist in the sky or may even be too small for the crew to see (they need to see a gate after all, before they can use it with the key). Now why it had to be those set times... well will let Chrono Cross sequel tell us. If you go by the theory that Lavos was intentionally placed on earth as a safety against magic's misuse, then those times are the most relevant and vital to addressing the issue and CONVINCING Crono and crew that something in their world needs fixing. If Crono and crew went too far when they destroyed Lavos (perhaps they were meant to weaken it), then maybe their elimination would be required, and a grand dimensional manipulation required to set the necessary safeties back on line.

Or maybe the Epoch made gates and closed them after passing? As for specific gates and specific eras, my idea is that the Entity was having a flashback before "death" of it's most important memories (The Entity being the planet) so it created single gates to time periods of major importance in it's lifetime, everywhere from the Landing of Lavos to the Awakening of Lavos.

Or I digress. Time, is what we will it to be. Its conception in the Chrono Universe was arbitrary. Marle is affected by a paradox that occurs no where else. Were the theories of Chrono Trigger in check, destroying Lavos should have made everything the crew had done disappear (as Lavos had never destroyed the world, thus Crono and crew would never have journeyed). If we accept that a change in dimension can eliminate such paradoxes, then why was Marle removed? We must then accept that Chrono Time is not our own time and thus indefinable.

Well, the crew DID technically dissapear after beating Lavos, and the games seems to imply they went to their own times, but then Lucca gathered them back up.

Or we say that some exterior being removed Marle. Recall what she says. She wasn't dead. Her consciousness was intact. And yet she disappeared from the space time continuum into nothing. Not long afterward, she reappears. Who then could have removed her, creating this non-sensible seeming paradox? The "entity"? A Crono and crew that comes from a future time? Another group?

Entity

[Dragoness]

*Clap* Congrats for make a long post that didn't make me go asleep!

You have really thought about this!

..

....Sadly, I had to vote for "I just like playing the games."

[Sentenal]

On the Gurus:  They were the top guys of Zeal, a country of Magic.  The thing that separates Zeal from, say, 2400 (saved timeline) is magic.  Its said as much when the game says that Chronopolis or FATE (or something) was possible due to advanced 23rd century technology (or machines), and knowledge from 12000 (or magic).  Belthasar was more scientific than the other Gurus, but he was still a magician, as everyone in Zeal was.

On Magic:  Magic in the Chronoverse is no technological.  Its super-natural.  Innate magic users do not require technology to use magic.  Case in point, look at how Crono got it:  He walked around a room 3 times, and Spekkio said something.  Magic is super-natural abilities, but possession of it seems to be genetic.

As for elements, they are simply manufactured "magic".  But there is a difference between using this "magic", and being a "magic user".

Or we say that some exterior being removed Marle. Recall what she says. She wasn't dead. Her consciousness was intact. And yet she disappeared from the space time continuum into nothing. Not long afterward, she reappears. Who then could have removed her, creating this non-sensible seeming paradox? The "entity"? A Crono and crew that comes from a future time? Another group?

Our friend Zaper would rather us have a plot hole here.  But I'm glad you came to this conclusion.  Its the most logical conclusion to come to, and have time being consistantly defined.  One of the more common answers is that the Entity removed Marle from the timeline temporarily in order to spur Crono on his quest.  Lucca was no authority on the nature of time travel at that point, so I can easily brush her explination aside as "ignorant" and "uninformed".

[Zaperking]

Our friend Zaper would rather us have a plot hole here. But I'm glad you came to this conclusion. Its the most logical conclusion to come to, and have time being consistantly defined. One of the more common answers is that the Entity removed Marle from the timeline temporarily in order to spur Crono on his quest. Lucca was no authority on the nature of time travel at that point, so I can easily brush her explination aside as "ignorant" and "uninformed".

 How dare you think such a thing. Lucca was the one who started to make a time egg, not only that but change the circuitry of the Mother Brain circuit and did all this other stuff. She is not the "ignorant" and "uninformed" one. YOU ARE. STFU and stop defying GAME EVIDENCE. I think you have already forgotten that the Chrono Series Analysis topics are base don logic and game evidence, and anything else is a theory. In my definition, the only plot hole was the rest of the games time travelling methods. But really, you know, no one in Crono and co's past was really in danger so hence they could not be wiped from history.

As for Elements and Magic. They are what hold the world together. Everything is made up of them. The Elements are more of the Earths power, as that is from where it is derived. As for Magic, it holds the universe together. Elements aren't manmade, they just harnessed into another use.

EDIT: Edited the irrational parts when I got heated.

[Burning Zeppelin]

I'll come up with a detailed reply when I'm not so sleepy  But doesn't that mean that they could be living in a branch, and that every step they take creates another?