Another Topic To Find The Rom

[ZeaLitY]

Just two things:

• Heckrans are a recurring motif in Chrono series games (even RD has Kid impersonating one), so I changed the beast at the 1 A.D. battle to a Heckran. (Hoping we didn't replace those sprites, haha.)
• The plot page for Chapter 12 says they retrieve the Epoch in 1005 A.D. before dealing with Cakulha in 2305 A.D., but this isn't in the game.

[Agent 12]

Getting the epoch got pushed back.  There was no real need to get it at that point.  It's also somewhat necessary to keep it where it's currently at in the game since Daltons Dungeon shouldn't be reachable until you get it.


--JP

[Chrono'99]

Quite a few things aren't in the game or are different, and I'm starting to wonder if the game "needs" any polishing at all at this rate. I thought we were still working to create the best hack possible with the best plot possible, but now we're just bent on keeping what we've got at the very expense of plot quality and cohesion. I can't find any way around the Chapter 8/9 stuff. Might as well release the game right now if we just gave up on improving it. I don't know what to think anymore.

[ZeaLitY]

I had killed the project again, putting it in the Abandoned category before JP came back and basically finished a coding skeleton as a one-man effort. I had been dealing with threats to my free time and emotional issues all year, and there really was no other help for CE besides a few technical things and the occasional mapfrom Vehek, JLukas, and the others. What we have is just that: the result of a valiant one-man effort. We were really skeptical that things would improve, since other people were making things like Azala Style, or Chrono Trigger: Re-Amped, and no one even answered the call for sprite insertion / graphics hacking help (at least until FaustWolf got back from campaigning).

This recent history gave us a mindset of "if we can just get things together, we'll be able to release", as if we're fighting against all odds. I've badly mismanaged my time, meaning I haven't been able to do dialogue, let alone shepherd the project at all; JP is pretty much the effective leader, since he carried it through the dark period and finished the coding structure. That's...basically it; it's been running on his effort alone. Maybe expectations were lowered or whatever, but you can see where the latent feeling of the project is coming from, now. We should probably just discuss our aims again and the release timeframe.

[Agent 12]

If my solution isn't up to the standards of the plot you want go ahead and get rid the temporal part of Dinopolis  I didn't realize it was a make or break deal.

I coded up the plot the best I could keeping realstic expectations.  It was never meant to be the final draft as I'm sure you've noticed with the Chapter Breakdown thread.  As zeality mentioned it was basically me there for awhile and it also looked like it was going to continue to be me for the rest of it.

From now on you can make any changes you see fit.....

As for the epoch I think what happened is I literally missed seeing it in the plot.  I think it was like...one line somewhere "belthasar tells them to get the epoch".  By the time i noticed I was much farther along and there was no real need to give them the epoch at that point so I moved it later.

--JP

[Vehek]

It's also somewhat necessary to keep it where it's currently at in the game since Daltons Dungeon shouldn't be reachable until you get it.

Maybe we can use some excuse like there being some gap in the path?

[Agent 12]

yea like i said it's only somewhat necessary the only reason i mentioned it was cause I was trying to think of any code changes we would need if we moved it to that chapter...we'd also have to change the EoT code a bit cause the Dreamtime events would get triggered.

haha lots of tension in here.  Let's look at this and loosen up.....

http://xs434.xs.to/xs434/08494/holditmyself479.png

I'm checking out the ROM to bring in the next chapter of dialogue.


--JP

[ZeaLitY]

I'll continue writing, then. It will always be possible to go back and change things.

[Agent 12]

Check in:

Chapter 11 Dialogue Inserted Zeality said he was almost done with 12 so I may have another update later.


--JP

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[Chrono'99]

Well, sorry if I sounded angry or something. It wasn't my intent...It's just that I have a tendency to put the plot above everything else, since it's the area that had the most attention over the two+ years of development. I still often go back to the first plot outlines by Zeality and Hadriel to see if any old element can be used in the final game, as it would be a waste to lose some of the good details that were thought of and that might have been forgotten over the years. It's not major events, but little details that help enhance the mood of the game. At the beginning of Chapter 7 for instance, there's currently an empty placeholder textbox for Marle to "express turmoil" over Crono's fate; that idea came from the first plot outlines and it helps maintain the dramatical tension that rose from the Atash Kedah scene. It's very easy to lose the dramatical impact with ellipses and "Meanwhile..."-type transitions.

Anyway...it would be an equal waste to have to drop or discard parts of the coding, so that's why I don't want to remove anything from the game. So far we mostly haven't discarded anything, only altered. The Glenn slaughter scene that was removed from the ending is still set to be inserted in Glenn's Frozen Flame nightmare for instance. The only casualty is the Dinopolis dungeon design, but there really isn't any way around it, as the transition from the CMG to LR and back to CMG feels too artificial. The reordering is necessary to keep a good emotional curve from the first Atash Kedah scene to the second one all the way across the 3 Reptite chapters and their 3 "meanwhile" transitions.

[Agent 12]

No problem,  everyone involved here has quite a bit of time and effort invested in this project and we all want it to be perfect.  But we also have to make sure we don't overextend ourselves in the process.  We also should recognize that if we work really hard we can release a "near" perfect project soon.....and it would just so happen to be riding the coat tails of the CTDS release (i.e. alot ofo people searching stuff along the lines 'chrono trigger sequel' )  That's why I think stuff like getting a Human glenn is not critical (though i agree it'd be awesome). 

Many of the projects on this site eventually head to mt. woe because of people setting the bar way to high.  They plan all this awesome stuff but while trudging through the actual implementation they lose interest.  It's simply a fact of life that eventually you're going to run out of gas working on this stuff/real life takes over.

Anywhos...it sounds like you are dead set on the reordered chapters but I'm going to explain my compromise one more time in more detail.  If you don't want it it's totally fine and I'll drop it

DISCLAIMER: the top part of this post is kind of unrelated.  The reordered chapters has nothing to do with it being to much work or anything. The top part is just saying we can continually improve the game by adding more and more stuff for a very long (too long) amount of time

CMG => LR => CMG:
1) remove sorin scene from bottom of Dinopolis (he'll make appearance later)
2) After the 3 big fights at top of Terra Tower, show Reptite TT opening trap door dropping them into the dungeon where Marle Died
3) If they hadn't already vistited this dungoen (and thus seen the Crono finds marle cutscene) so a smaller version of that cutscene
4) transition to LR.
5) After lucca Robo have lucca say something along the lines of "the only way this can change is if someone outside the ebb of time changed history"
6) transition back to the jail and have Sorin set them free.  Force the player back to the fight room
7) have them go up to the portal room and continue as normal

Good points:

*We need to change the Sorin scene anyways;right now he gives you the dragon tooth.  But now that got changed since the dragon tooth is no longer in 1002 reptite.  Also it makes sorin more awesome.
*It assures that Chrono found out Marle had died.  Zeality wanted to explore this in dialogue and it's sort of assumed at the end of chapter 11 (when marle meets chrono in the infirmary)
*It'll also totally catch the player offguard.  They will think that LR were going to save the timeline but when LR get to the top of terra tower and the top room is collapsed they'll be like...now what?


If we don't do this change here's the things we need to make sure  we do to Dinopolis:
1) There's a switch inside a door that opens a new path......i guess just open both paths and remove the switch
2) Make all the treasure chests memory treasure chests
3)  Make the "key" thing just appear in 1002



--JP

[Agent 12]

Checking out for the next chapter of dialogue.

--JP

[Agent 12]

Check in that took longer than expected great job zeality the questoins from the reptite are fantastic.

--JP

PS:  I like this line but wasn't sure where you wanted it i couldn't find the guy
Mess with pay   The Regime is supposed to have the greatest technology and leadership in the world. How are they being beaten?


also i had to tweak some of the questions to make them fit on one line (needed for decisions)

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[Chrono'99]

In this patch (which has Chapter12Dialogue.ips as the basis):

-the end of the Lucca/Robo Chapter is polished.
-moved the little scene about Lucca realizing the Gate is closed to the room behind the Vision Serpent, with the Gate disappearing visually.
-I changed Commander to Operator to make him sound more robotic and less military.
-back in Chapter 7, I changed the generic Reptite Leader to Cakulha.
-by the way, I started using mems to fix a few bugs (currently 7F00FF and 7F00FE, they're in the changelog).

I've considered the reordering alternative, but really there's a crescendo about going from one character, to two and then three (and from the weakest party to the strongest also), that just isn't there with the Marle/CMG/LR order. It does seem curious that the Crono-finds-Marle cutscene is not mandatory, so perhaps we could just add an NPC that blocks the correct path until the scene is actually seen by the player.

Anyway, there's a missing line of dialogue in Chapter 7 between the Operator's "...to the Serpent for the greater good." and "The Reptites also researched temporal theory". Currently it just says "We{null}". It was missing in the original patch too so I don't think it's corruption or anything; the line that was inserted was probably too long to fit in one string.

So, apparently it takes me about 5 to 7 days to polish one chapter. Map polishing is what takes the most time. For Prophet's Guile I was quite satisfied with the maps Nightmare 975, Zeality and I made, but even these received some criticisms by players, IIRC.

At this rate I guess we could expect a late February/early March 2009 release... What do you think? It's kind of far, but it would be a shame to have to rush the polishing of the final chapters (Xenogears Disc 2 anyone?). We would still benefit from the CTDS boost, and for what it's worth Europe hasn't even got CTDS yet (it will be released in "Early 2009").

Checking out for the CMG Chapter now...

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[Agent 12]

Good stuff Chrono'99.  I actually totally agree about the crescendo thing it is kind of awkward. 

I think we can potentially leave actually seeing the scene where they found marle as optional it can add replay value and the dialogue still  somewhat works (for all intents and purposes chrono thought something happened to marle).  Plus there's atleast one temporal effect to Dinopolis (the first switch marle presses).

If you disagree the changes that will have to be implemented to chronopolis:

Move the jail somewhere where all paths can hit it:
* Beginning of dungeon as a side room? would have to do the block the path you talked about?  maybe they get a key from the reptites chrono kills?
* Maybe before the final portal?

Actually after typing this the first option there works pretty well.  We can leave the Marle picking the switch that determines the rest of the dungeon AND enforce chrono finding marle dead

By the way I didn't realize the europe release was later that's awesome .....well....for us.  Let me know what you think I'm actually don't mind moving the jail.

--JP