Author Topic: Lavos and the Beginning  (Read 8690 times)

SilentMartyr

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2005, 03:14:17 pm »
Quote from: Philosopher1701
If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos.

It was taken from Chrono Cross, and guys, you should take a look at this.  :wink:



Lucca: The true beginning was during the destruction of the ancient Kingdom of Zeal! As the palace collapsed around her, Schala was sucked into a dimensional vortex along with the Lavos Mammon Machine. Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve into the Devourer of Time. Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos, half of Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existence. Yet at the same time, the other half of her mind desired to save the universe and to be rescued herself.



Marle: A new species is about to be born on this planet -- an alien life-form even more evolved that the old Lavos! At the darkness beyond time, the weakened Schala came under the influence of Lavos, and the two became one entity. It is now up to you, the one whom the Frozen Flame has chosen as its "arbiter"... You alone can decide how the new Lavos, which has encaged Schala within it, will evolve from here! Your actions will determine whether in the future all time is devoured by Lavos, sending the world into everlasting death.



Schala wasn't the one influencing Lavos's feelings, Lavos was the one influencing Schala's feelings!  :o :wink:


My point ------------------------------------------------------  You


I know about that and how Schala is changed by Lavos's influence. What I was saying is that because of the fusion, some of Schala's feelings and emotions were fused into Lavos. Thusly giving Lavos emotions of love, trust, pity, and all the other "good" human emotions.

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2005, 03:29:57 pm »
Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos.........


But it specifically states that it is Lavos's emotions.  :?

Shadow_Dragon

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2005, 11:35:30 am »
Yes, but if Lavos' emotions completely overwhelmed Schala, then she would be Lavos, and Lavos would be no different after the fusion, but she does retain some good emotions, as the script says, and, after fusing with Lavos, brings them to the unified being, just as Lavos brought sadness and such to the unified being

SilentMartyr

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2005, 11:53:48 am »
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
Yes, but if Lavos' emotions completely overwhelmed Schala, then she would be Lavos, and Lavos would be no different after the fusion, but she does retain some good emotions, as the script says, and, after fusing with Lavos, brings them to the unified being, just as Lavos brought sadness and such to the unified being


Yay! Someone knows what I am talking about, I thought I was going crazy for a second there.

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2005, 08:11:31 pm »
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
Yes, but if Lavos' emotions completely overwhelmed Schala, then she would be Lavos, and Lavos would be no different after the fusion, but she does retain some good emotions, as the script says, and, after fusing with Lavos, brings them to the unified being, just as Lavos brought sadness and such to the unified being



I understand what you are saying, but the "hate and sadness" came from Lavos, right?

That was all I was saying.

Zaperking

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2005, 09:05:19 pm »
Umm... Isn't it stated in the game that to keep all her good emotions eg love, purity etc. from being overwhelmed by Lavos' evil and sadness she sent out Kid with all of them >.>

Swordmaster

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2005, 11:40:04 pm »
But its stated that Kid have a side that want return everything to nothing.

Chrono'99

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Re: Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2005, 01:10:54 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
00129 (L:00224.H:00003)
+----------------------------
|\Starky\:
|Woowzer!
|Out of this world...!\NE\
|The liight of the big baang!\NE\
|All starts from heere and
|all ends heere...\NE\
|What liies beeyond that...?\Ptr\
|

If you didn't see that in the game, maybe it was from the Chronicles forum? I remember stumbling upon a topic about this quote there.

Anyway, how are we sure that Starky's talking about the Flame? When he says...
"The liight of the big baang! All starts from heere"
...perhaps "here" just refers to the Big Bang, not the Frozen Flame.

SilentMartyr

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2005, 01:19:21 pm »
But why would he say that when he sees the frozen flame? Thats the question.

Chrono'99

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2005, 01:36:09 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
But why would he say that when he sees the frozen flame? Thats the question.

Apparently, the Flame shows to the party everything they want to see (or on the contrary, don't want to see...), like some music or something to Nikki, Dario to Riddel, the Hell's Cook to Orcha, Ghetz to Greco, etc. So maybe for some reason (like exploring many different planets) Starky wanted to know what was the origin of the universe.

I believe we have the same problem for Zappa's quote :

00118 (L:00224.H:00004)
+----------------------------
|\Zappa\:
|Aye... These auld bones have
|seen countless faces of the
|flame in mah lifetime...\NE\
|But with this un, ah cannae
|say ah've ever seen more
|pure and genuine hatred...\Ptr\
|

Is he talking about "the" Frozen Flame, or something else?

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2005, 01:44:42 pm »
The Frozen Flame is a piece of Lavos. If the Frozen Flame has some connection with the Big Bang, then Lavos would have to have a connection, too.


00129 (L:00224.H:00003)
+----------------------------
|\Starky\:
|Woowzer!
|Out of this world...!\NE\
|The liight of the big baang!\NE\
|All starts from heere and
|all ends heere...\NE\
|What liies beeyond that...?\Ptr\


Interesting thought.

The Time Devourer was attempting to annihilate the entire space-time continuum.

Belthasar: The Devourer of Time is a new life-form... Born out of the fusion of a life-form from this planet with Lavos, who nests on the far side of the dimensional void. In the far-off future, when the fusion becomes complete, IT will awaken... Then, the Devourer of Time will begin to consume all space-time continua... Despair and hatred... To return all things to nothingness... That is what IT desires.[/u]


This is clearly what Starky means by "all ends here", but what about "all starts from here"?

What could this mean???????????????????????????????????????????????????

..........................................................................

The entire Chrono story has suddenly become very[/b] weird.  :?

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2005, 02:22:35 pm »
Here is another thought:


Maybe the Tesseract was once (or still is) a kind of "Land of the Gods" or something? It exists beyond all space-time, so it could be some kind of eternal dwelling for greater beings that observe the entire universe and the progression of the many different dimensions and histories that exist within it. They may even orchestrate and guide the flow of the space-time continuum.

There could have been a rogue "God" who desired something different from the other "Gods". This may have been Lavos. This would  prove that Lavos did indeed originate from some kind of "Godhood", and this also poves that the Frozen Flame has a divine power. Not to mention, it would also explain how everything begins and ends at the Tesseract. Lavos could have been a "fallen angel".

ANGELUS ERRARE - Where Angels Lose Their Way.

IMPORTANT: This is just speculation! Don't flame me!

Hadriel

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2005, 01:25:17 pm »
That delves heavily into the issue of the actual theology of Chrono, which hasn't been explored very extensively.  My take on it is that if Lavos was indeed a true God, two things would be nonexistent: 1) the need to evolve further, and 2) the possibility that anyone could beat him, save for another god of similar stature.  However, it's virtually inarguable that Lavos craved power, and had abilities similar to those of the Entity, the only other godlike figure in the series -- and even it was in danger of being destroyed by Lavos.  The Entity, though powerful, is a consciousness confined to Earth and the immediate vicinity and as such is apparently not a true God, either.  There is a possibility of some type of universal force, but it's unclear how Zen-like in concept such a thing would be.  

There are, however, a number of more classical supernatural occurrences in the series that, to all appearances, have nothing to do with Lavos in anything but mechanics.  Garai and Cyrus linger after their deaths and are able to physically interact with mortal beings, and several undead enemies such as spirits and ambulatory skeletons lacking accompanying muscular or nervous systems are present.  Special relativity dictates that energy with a propagation rate of c, presumably including disembodied spirits, cannot interact in real time with the physical universe.  Yet the spirits in Chrono, and almost every other story where ghosts are present, defy special relativity and engage in open dialogue utilizing higher thought processes that require nerves to carry out.  The FATE computer, ironically, has some knowledge of the mechanics of souls, as Lynx tells Serge that he put Kid's soul to sleep.  It is also stated that Chronopolis has the technology to facilitate the simulation of souls within sentient lifeforms.  In order to create a facsimile of such a thing, one would have to know what it contains, indicating that the FATE computer possesses sufficient knowledge and technology to work around special relativity.  This is perhaps a consequence of Belthasar's research into time -- he might have found out some vital link between time and the soul.  One would think that Lynx is BSing and just pumped her full of sedatives, but she's unable to wake up long after any available sedative should have expired.  

The Tesseract, from what we know about it, is not a place that can be accessed in a purely material form.  Rather, it is most likely a reservoir of whatever energy lies behind the universe, holding the data for every annihilated timeline.  Lavos was banished here in spirit form after he was destroyed, but he apparently has such a mastery of time and of spiritual energies, whatever the hell those actually entail, that he was able to hold on to a form of consciousness and construct his body.  Even if it is only data, from what we know about the Tesseract, it can manifest physically given the right conditions.  The Tesseract may have something to do with Zurvan, the sea of dreams, as well, but I'm tired and I'm going to take a nap now.

Zatopek

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2005, 03:31:10 pm »
Lots of this discussion connects with some talk about the character of Starky:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=566

Seeing as he comes from some type of advanced species, how much knowledge would he or his people have about Lavos?  Does he recognize the Flame, or is his character response just like the others in which the Flame triggers an idea of memory?  What is Starky doing in El Nido?  Doing research on Lavos or scouting out the planet or what?

After all this talk, I find Starky's character much more interesting than I once did...

Daniel Krispin

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2005, 06:17:04 pm »
Quote from: Zatopek
Lots of this discussion connects with some talk about the character of Starky:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=566

Seeing as he comes from some type of advanced species, how much knowledge would he or his people have about Lavos?  Does he recognize the Flame, or is his character response just like the others in which the Flame triggers an idea of memory?  What is Starky doing in El Nido?  Doing research on Lavos or scouting out the planet or what?

After all this talk, I find Starky's character much more interesting than I once did...


If one can take one of the joke endings at face value, he was an advance scout for invasion - but when he comrades arrive he appears to have gone AWOL. But of course, that is not a 'true' ending.