Author Topic: Lavos and the Beginning  (Read 8582 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Lavos and the Beginning
« on: June 08, 2005, 01:58:36 am »
I was just looking at one of Starky's lines regarding this particular artifact. Now, it is specifically stated by FATE that the Frozen Flame is the essence of Lavos. But see Starky's lines:

00129 (L:00224.H:00003)
+----------------------------
|\Starky\:
|Woowzer!
|Out of this world...!\NE\
|The liight of the big baang!\NE\
|All starts from heere and
|all ends heere...\NE\
|What liies beeyond that...?\Ptr\
|

This seems to imply that the Frozen Flame is something inherently connected with the very origin of the Universe. Through the comment by FATE, this then demands that Lavos himself is far more than a simple parasite, but rather had some hand, or springs from, the very origin of the universe itself.

This, however, appears to go against Lucca's assertion of its parasitical nature. So, who knows more? FATE and Starky, or Lucca? And what does this mean for what Lavos truly is?

saridon

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 03:23:04 am »
interesting, but where does sparky say that?

Daniel Krispin

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 01:14:02 pm »
I've been attempting to figure that out myself. I found it in the script dump that ZeaLitY posted just a short while ago; it stands alongside a host of other character specific lines, where each of them says their own space about the Flame. I would have dismissed this to be something cut from the actual game, but it sparked some memory, and I think I've seen it in the game before, once. ZeaLitY, it seems, also knows this, so plainly it does occur at some point... but on replaying I was unable to see it. Moreover, I've only every heard this one, Starky's, a character I rarely used, which was odd. I've never heard any of the others say anything akin to what they are meant to (mostly, it seems, the Flame revealing and/or tempting them with things.)

But sufficed to say, both I and ZeaLitY remember it as having been said, so it likely is at some point or another, even though I cannot remember exactly how to get it (I think it likely to be atop Terra Tower, even though a replay did not yield the lines: it is in the same 'room' as all the other dialogue from that segment.)

Anyway, any other ideas on what this might mean? Just to add to what I said before, unless FATE was purposefully trying at deception, her words must be taken as more true even than Lucca's in Chrono Trigger: FATE is corrupted by Lavos, thus presumably has greater knowledge of its history and true being even than that fabled inventor. In this I am referring specifically to what she says regarding the Flame, that it is the essence of what fell from the heavens in prehistoric times. Thus the Flame is almost without doubt the essence of Lavos (save for two cases: FATE does not know Lavos, which would be strange considering her corruption and essential control by that being; FATE was purposely attempting to deceive. Though for the latter, it does not seem to me that there is either reason or purpose in such a thing in the hall of the Flame in Chronopolis.)

The other two lines pertaining to it are of Starky and Lucca. These two essentially seem to contradict (though I suppose resolution could in some measure be possible.) Starky's is posted above, and speaks of the Flame, thus Lavos, as mirroring and echoing, even containing, the Beginning of the universe. To counter this is Lucca's statement of its parasitical existance, and the insinuation through this that it is not sentient. That last, however, I have before thrown into question, with Lavos' apparent high technology and bio-engineering capabilities, both of which hint at not only sentience, but extreme intelligence. I suppose this means that Lucca is not claiming Lavos to be an unfeeling parasite, merely that this is its way of conquest. Different than any earthly lord would do, for certain, but Lavos is not of the earth, thus it would be odd if he follows the same ways of war and conquest as humanity would. After all, it is ancient and, seemingly, immortal in the sense that it does not die naturally (or at least has a span of life exceeding 100 million years) - I think that somewhere, in fact, Lavos is called the Infamous Immortal. But essentially, Lucca does not see Lavos as much more than a conquerer and enemy, whereas Starky sees echoes of the very origin of the universe in this thing. It might be assumed that, for all her technical aptitude, Starky has a far greater understanding of the universe and of science than even Lucca does, so is it he we should believe. Would he know and understand such a thing as the Flame as clearly as he seems to?

This leads to the question: what then, is this thing? I have always held Lavos to be something of a lord: mighty, terrible, and dark. A dark Lord of an older fantasy vein. Is not the Flame then his Ring? But apart from such things of my own seeing, it seems now apparent that Lavos may be far more terrible than a parasite, and that even before his change into the Time Devourer, was mighty beyond measure. He has some darker purpose or origin, perhaps, than has yet been revealed. Maybe a terror born into the universe at the beginning, a nightmare of a fledgling world that has haunted it since its inception. Or maybe yet an echo of the chaos of the beginning, a Tiamat who has not yet had a Marduk to vanquish it fully. And, it seems, destined to be the End of all things, if Starky is to be believed. Is he then perhaps evil itself? All the more reason to look to Chrono Brake with anticipation, I suppose.

So, what do the masters of the Compendium say to this? Has this ever been explored?

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 04:58:59 pm »
Whoa! This suddenly got very deep!


Nice parallels between Lavos and Tolkien's mythology :wink:. Perhaps Lavos could have been like Melkor (Morgoth) or Sauron. Remember, Sauron was once a Maia spirit that was seduced by Morgoth, so Lavos, whatever it is, could have a much deeper story reaching back to the very origin of the universe, maybe like a creation myth or something. I recall that the script mentioned that Lavos was filled with anger and sadness. What?! Lavos has feelings?! What could this mean? Does Lavos seek vengeance on someone or something greater than has been revealed?

SilentMartyr

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 05:35:56 pm »
Quote from: Philosopher1701
Whoa! This suddenly got very deep!


Nice parallels between Lavos and Tolkien's mythology :wink:. Perhaps Lavos could have been like Melkor (Morgoth) or Sauron. Remember, Sauron was once a Maia spirit that was seduced by Morgoth, so Lavos, whatever it is, could have a much deeper story reaching back to the very origin of the universe, maybe like a creation myth or something. I recall that the script mentioned that Lavos was filled with anger and sadness. What?! Lavos has feelings?! What could this mean? Does Lavos seek vengeance on someone or something greater than has been revealed?


That matters on what game you are talking about. If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos. It happened to Schala, so I don't see why the opposite couldn't happen.

Sentenal

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2005, 05:51:29 pm »
Well, although Starky might be an authority on space, science, and the like, I'm not sure if he would be an authority on Lavos, or the Frozen Flame.  Maybe he was saying simply that it reminded him of such things.

But thats not to discount it.  It could be hinting at Lavos' origin, which we know next to nothing about.

Daniel Krispin

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2005, 06:31:31 pm »
Quote from: Philosopher1701
Whoa! This suddenly got very deep!


Nice parallels between Lavos and Tolkien's mythology :wink:. Perhaps Lavos could have been like Melkor (Morgoth) or Sauron. Remember, Sauron was once a Maia spirit that was seduced by Morgoth, so Lavos, whatever it is, could have a much deeper story reaching back to the very origin of the universe, maybe like a creation myth or something. I recall that the script mentioned that Lavos was filled with anger and sadness. What?! Lavos has feelings?! What could this mean? Does Lavos seek vengeance on someone or something greater than has been revealed?


Don't mind me: I always draw those parallels. You should see the 'Lavos the Dark Lord' thread over at Chronicles: I didn't begin it, but much of that idea was because of me. I've seen Lavos as a Sauron-like character (though not as Melkor, his folly and deeds were different) for every-so long, probably since I wrote him as such in my writing. The connections are manifold, though coincidntal: the Flame to the Ring; Zeal to Numenor (and see also how both sovereigns are undone by a quest for immortality - the Queen in CT, Tarkalion in the Akallabeth - both are influenced by a demon of sorts, and both empires are echoes of Atlantis). Melkor, Morgoth after the Oath and Feanor's insurrection against the Valar, was a little different, though I suppose Lavos' twisted creations may be likened to the beasts that Morgoth creates.

But about what you are saying... it would be facinating if indeed it was all an act of vengeance, a grand play of one thousand million years that even the time-travelling heroes could not understand, seeing but a part of it. What if there were other things involved? Perhaps he is the Janus of the universe, and the earth is not unlike the men of Guardia he killed while gaining his strength to kill the greater evil of Lavos - an incedental and neccessary death, long to the eyes of Man but only a whisper to his patient lifetime. A story within a story. Well, it is likely not the case, but an interesting thought that you had, nonetheless. What is interesting, also, however, is that it is said: 'must one destroy another world in order to save one's own'... is his own world in some peril? Is Lavos a saviour to his people? So many questions. And how does this all tie into the last - very weird to my eyes - speech of Schala's in CC?

Quote from: SilentMartyr

That matters on what game you are talking about. If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos. It happened to Schala, so I don't see why the opposite couldn't happen.


Very true, of course. Lavos' reason and understanding may all be part of Schala's influence (save of course for his apparent technology in the CT next-to-final battle.) Considering the TD was extra-temporal, this would indeed fit in with him being at the beginning and at the end of the universe because, essentially, he was not in the universe proper. I tend to think it is not wholly because of this, but it is certainly a viable option.

But anyway, from the way these things strike me, I think that Lavos may perhaps be the devil of the Chrono universe. If you look at the other quotes for the other characters besides Starky you see temptings of darkness, echoes of evil and ruin and suffering, all contained with the Flame and Lavos - things from such disparate events that it seems that the lifeblood of evil runs through and from him.
Some may maintain Lavos' innoccence in unawareness but, you see, the problem with Lavos being unfeeling is this: the Frozen Flame is essentially Lavos, and echoes who he is. That much is given. If he were a parasite, un-sentient and all, he could not be truly evil, as he would have no intent. Likewise, then, the Flame, as the essence of Lavos, could not be fully evil. Yet it is, and this shows more clearly than anything else what Lavos is, and how his mind is. The Flame is clearly evil - Fargo says it, and it is made manifest several times - like the Ruling Ring (think of the temptations of power, and of glory, that the Flame gives, akin to that of that Ring!), and as the essense of Lavos shows that Lavos himself must be truly evil, and thus truly sentient. He cannot then be a simple parasite - he acts parasitically, that is doubtless, and he can thus be named a parasite, but that is not all he is. He is evil. He is a tyrant. He is, for lack of a better word, a fell and dark lord, with purpose and reason.

V_Translanka

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2005, 09:34:39 pm »
Since all life began at the most primitive stages of life, I think that Lavos could still be a parasite and still be from the creation of the universe...Perhaps he was a starting point or mearly a brief result...Or perhaps Lavos did not exist at all at first, but there was only the Flame and Lavos sprung forth from it...

I recall the quote too...That's not Starky's FF quote? What about when he gets the Star Fragment or something?

Hadriel

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2005, 09:43:45 pm »
I suggested in another thread that the Flame was not just the Ring in mythological terms, but also in practical ones -- as with Sauron, the Flame contains part of Lavos' power.  I also postulated the Frozen Flame's recovery as being key to the Home/Another split -- if Serge lives, the path of events he takes as Arbiter means that the Dragon God recovers the Frozen Flame and gives it to Lavos, restoring his full power and ensuring that when 1999 rolls around, the Magnificent Seven can't beat him.  No amount of Time Bastarding can resolve the connection between Chronopolis and Lavos, thus creating the paradox.

The actual idea of Lavos as a Dark Lord came from Daniel.  I thought about it and was like OMGWTF IT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE LOL!!!1eleven!!1!!1!! Then I went to Chronicles and started the 'Lavos the Dark Lord' thread, which ended up being over twenty pages.

When I saw Lavos' core, I was reminded of rather farfetched biotechnology used by certain races in science fiction, and certain commonalities that have to be present for storytelling's sake.  The Vorlons and Shadows, two incredibly ancient races hailing from Babylon 5, use this type of technology to great effect against the level of technology displayed by B5 races, although they don't stand up to the Empire, and certainly not to other science fiction settings such as the Culture.  Star Wars has several races which use these implements, most notably the New Jedi Order series' fanatically religious Yuuzhan Vong, which in fact base their entire culture on hatred of technology and are experts in genetic engineering, possessing equivalent creatures for everything that Star Wars tech can do.  The Force-sensitive Aing-Tii monks use similar ships, as well as the ancient Rakata from Knights of the Old Republic.  Each of these races' natures have certain profound implications for the heroes of their series.  In Babylon 5, we find out that the First Ones are gods, in a sense, instructing the younger races in a hidden war through telepathy and other venues.  As for the Yuuzhan Vong, on top of the considerable military challenge they posed to the New Republic/Galactic Alliance, they represent a moral dilemma for Luke Skywalker's new Jedi, as they are unable to be conventionally sensed in the Force.  The Rakata were responsible for building the Star Forge, an entirely mechanical shipyard/battle dreadnought imbued with a soul and using the life energies of its builders for power, but the Rakata's hateful and selfish imperialism caused the Forge's soul to absorb their negativity and turn to the dark side, effectively wiping them out.  Organic technology, though, isn't too terribly realistic from a scientific perspective -- for that reason, extra "oomph" must be added to its emotional impact to make it seem like it was created by or possesses some form and depth of understanding that we can't even begin to comprehend at our current level of development.  Otherwise, it won't seem believable.

In CT, Lavos represents a grave challenge to the heroes' very origins and motives, as it is responsible for the current state of affairs on this planet.  In possessing all of its abilities and knowledge, Lavos is a being actually capable of directing evolution and spacetime itself -- perhaps the ultimate feats.  He is quite simply the ultimate being -- in effect, he's managed to evolve into a God.  Creating entire ecosystems full of creatures and shaping them to his liking is an imperative reserved for such a stature.  Lavos' very nature is blasphemy to any person who subscribes to the theology of any Abrahamic faith, and as Guardia was most likely Christian or some equivalent of it (check the PSX ending FMV for the crosses) that provides an extra imperative for the heroes to boot him back to whatever sorry-ass planet he came from.  For the three party members possessed of no religion, they're motivated by their friendships, something Lavos trivializes in favor of evolutionary progression.

As far as the Lord of the Rings parallel, folks who've only seen the movies will think that Sauron is basically the essence of bad, and in that time period he is basically the chief of Evil Town.  What they don't know is about the tales told in the Silmarillion, which I still haven't gotten around to reading all the way through, and of the aforementioned Melkor/Morgoth.  Being a god was basically what Morgoth and his ilk desired, much like Lucifer.  Just as Lucifer seduced a third of the angels to his desires, Melkor decided to go out and get people like Sauron to do his dirty work.  As many parallels as Sauron and Lavos have, it's scary to think that Lavos ever could have had a master -- or worse, that there could actually be an entire race of "Lavoids" of which Lavos is merely one member.  Consider this: Lavos, as a baby Lavoid, survived a 100 TT impact straight into Earth's surface without so much as a scratch on the paint job.  And he's one member of that race.  Assuming that Lavos' shell was some kind of ship meant to shield him, it terrifies me to think about what a Lavoid race could construct.  Their military vessels might even surpass those of the insanely advanced Culture novels by Iain M. Banks.  A little background on the Culture: In science fiction Versus communities, it's commonly recognized that Star Wars is pretty much the benchmark in terms of weapon power.  Lavos' 100 TT figure is comparable to several mid-sized Star Wars capital ships -- and that's an extremely conservative estimate, considering that he had enough energy to create a Pocket Dimension immediately afterwards.  The actual figure for the shell probably ranges well into the petatons, which outstrips most midsized Star Wars ships, falling into the range of smaller heavy cruisers.  However, when someone wants to decisively beat the Star Wars setting, there's only one thing to do -- bring out the Culture.  Their ships are capable of doing such insane shit as hiding inside a star and traveling 300 TRILLION times the speed of light.  However, the ships aren't alive.  Lavos has a will of his own.  If the shell is in fact part of his being, then in all likelihood a Lavoid military vessel would have a will as well, possibly the collective will of many Lavoids managing many aspects of the vessel.  

As far as Starky's quote goes, Lavos has basically achieved the goal of all sentient life -- to become a god unto himself.  What lies beyond that is a bunch of FUCKING EXTREME SHIT I made up for CE.

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2005, 11:06:11 pm »
If that was taken from Cross, it could mean that part of Schala's spirt and soul was infused into Lavos.

It was taken from Chrono Cross, and guys, you should take a look at this.  :wink:



Lucca: The true beginning was during the destruction of the ancient Kingdom of Zeal! As the palace collapsed around her, Schala was sucked into a dimensional vortex along with the Lavos Mammon Machine. Schala and Lavos became unified into one even more powerful entity that would evolve into the Devourer of Time. Filled with the hatred and sadness of Lavos, half of Schala's mind became set on destroying all of existence. Yet at the same time, the other half of her mind desired to save the universe and to be rescued herself.



Marle: A new species is about to be born on this planet -- an alien life-form even more evolved that the old Lavos! At the darkness beyond time, the weakened Schala came under the influence of Lavos, and the two became one entity. It is now up to you, the one whom the Frozen Flame has chosen as its "arbiter"... You alone can decide how the new Lavos, which has encaged Schala within it, will evolve from here! Your actions will determine whether in the future all time is devoured by Lavos, sending the world into everlasting death.



Schala wasn't the one influencing Lavos's feelings, Lavos was the one influencing Schala's feelings!  :o :wink:

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2005, 11:22:46 pm »
In CT, Lavos represents a grave challenge to the heroes' very origins and motives, as it is responsible for the current state of affairs on this planet. In possessing all of its abilities and knowledge, Lavos is a being actually capable of directing evolution and spacetime itself -- perhaps the ultimate feats. He is quite simply the ultimate being -- in effect, he's managed to evolve into a God. Creating entire ecosystems full of creatures and shaping them to his liking is an imperative reserved for such a stature.


Interesting.......... Man was created in the image of God.......... The image of Lavos!!!!!!!!!!! :o   :o   :o

Love and Hate.
Life and Death.

Humans have the same characteristics of Lavos in terms of emotions. If humans actually recieved their trivial differences (from the Planet and the natural creations of it) from Lavos, then this means that Lavos actually had the capacity to love and to hate. In effect, Lavos was the first "human", with the characteristics and ideas that its "children", the human beings that we know of, have. Lavos could have been a "human" in every way with the exception of its physical appearance and DNA.

Crono: Humans are such fragile, disjointed, imperfect things. Love and hate... Life and death...

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2005, 11:26:34 pm »
I could be wrong here, but don't Love & Hate (not to mention Life & Death) exist in 65,000,000BC before Lavos falls?

Philosopher1701

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2005, 11:28:35 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
I could be wrong here, but don't Love & Hate (not to mention Life & Death) exist in 65,000,000BC before Lavos falls?



Heh heh heh.  :)


Well, life and death existed.


As for love and hate, it could have been in a different context.

Philosopher1701

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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2005, 11:57:38 pm »
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?p=9293&highlight=#9293


Did anybody notice that Schala discounts all of those quotes about the Frozen Flame?  :)

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Lavos and the Beginning
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2005, 12:25:24 am »
Depends on how you define love and hate.  Supposedly, they formed in relation to the Dreamstone.  It's unclear if Lavos was involved, but Ayla had Dreamstone before Lavos landed, which seems to suggest that love and hate existed as conscious thoughts rather than as primal instincts before Lavos came.  It clearly does not mean purely sexual love, as that has been going on since long before the concepts of freedom of choice and intellectual fulfillment came along -- most likely it means brotherly love.  But what exactly is hate?  Lavos clearly has a crapton of it stored up.  

Love and hate are concepts the planet, and the universe, understand well.  The planet hates that which attempts to disrupt the natural order of things (Lavos).  It takes its rage out on humans.  When you have two opposing godlike beings vying to manipulate you every single day, it's easy to see why humans are such disjointed, fragile, imperfect things.  The entire series is a metaphor for the sentient experience -- Lavos and the planet's spirit probably represent two different aspects of humanity.  I'm not sure, though, which one represents cold logic and which one represents unbridled emotion.  Both are unhealthy extremes -- but as imperfect as humans are, a few seem to have found the balance.  Those humans will create the new life for the universe.