Author Topic: RIP Ted Kennedy  (Read 2524 times)

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2009, 06:29:32 pm »
Still he did pass on and I wish no more harm or ill will to his family as they mourn.

Thank you KebreI, that's pretty much what I meant by creating this thread.

For even though Z doesn't respect the Pope's right to exist or his family's mourning over losing a loved one, I do even for my ideological adversaries. Hell, I support Ted Kennedy's legacy of at least being a Senator who would get things done, even if I don't agree with what he did 100% of the time.

Don't let your search for a certain brand of humanism strip you of your humanity.

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2009, 06:38:13 pm »
The Chappaquiddick incident doesn't sit well with me either, but to be honest I haven't looked into the details. In worst-case scenario it's a testament to self redemption I suppose. Someone who commits a crime (in this case, fleeing the scene of an accident, or involuntary manslaughter, depending on how you look at the situation) owes a debt to society, whether the reparation is paid with the offender in chains or walking free. It seems Kennedy made a pretty good amount of progress toward restitution.  


ZeaLitY, which do you find more ironic: Truthordeal making this thread, or John McCain speaking at Kennedy's funeral? It seems to me Kennedy and McCain should have been diametrically opposed on a ton of issues, though it looks like they did find common ground on immigration reform. But overall, how much could we credit McCain with stymying some of the very things Kennedy fought so hard for?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 06:42:30 pm by FaustWolf »

mav

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gentleman Waiting in the Train Station at Twilight
    • View Profile
    • The RPG Realm
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2009, 07:00:40 pm »
Kennedy had a reputation of reaching across the aisle--many Republicans speak highly of Kennedy for this. Even when he was fighting for something that was in complete opposition to Republicans and Conservatives, he managed to maintain a tone of reverence and decency. It's actually quite interesting that a man toted as the "Liberal Lion" is held in such high esteem by his conservative adversaries and moreover that this "loud" and occasionally "boisterous" individual would still speak with esteem and admiration with those adversaries...John McCain (among others) probably knew that and experienced it often enough to consider Teddy both a friend and a political rival. I believe they also worked together on legislation from time to time, probably strengthening their relationship.

Oh wait, you asked ZeaLitY...never mind then.

ZaichikArky

  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
    • Livejournal
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2009, 08:25:14 pm »
Quote
Kennedy had a reputation of reaching across the aisle--many Republicans speak highly of Kennedy for this. Even when he was fighting for something that was in complete opposition to Republicans and Conservatives, he managed to maintain a tone of reverence and decency. It's actually quite interesting that a man toted as the "Liberal Lion" is held in such high esteem by his conservative adversaries and moreover that this "loud" and occasionally "boisterous" individual would still speak with esteem and admiration with those adversaries...John McCain (among others) probably knew that and experienced it often enough to consider Teddy both a friend and a political rival. I believe they also worked together on legislation from time to time, probably strengthening their relationship.

Agreed.

And also, Z, you do realize that Ted Kennedy did a whole lot more than lobby for health reform, right? Why attack Truth if he agreed with other reforms or positions that Ted Kennedy had? 

ZombieBucky

  • Springtime of Youth
  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 409
  • <insert witty phrase to match above avatar>
    • View Profile
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2009, 08:36:03 pm »
perhaps because this is the last thing kennedy will have had direct involvement in? perhaps because it would be a proper way to memorialize him?
from what i understand, massachusetts is in a bit of a panic right now. they need two senators and someone has t ofill in unitl a special election, but theyre afraid that the standin will run at the special election. but i dont get massachusetts politics.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2009, 09:10:13 pm »
With all due respect, ZB, I can't condone passing legislation the magnitude of the current health bill simply because Senator Kennedy died. Legislation isn't something that should happen as a matter of guilt or mourning. I don't know how better to put it....

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 10:47:42 pm »
ZeaLitY, which do you find more ironic: Truthordeal making this thread, or John McCain speaking at Kennedy's funeral? It seems to me Kennedy and McCain should have been diametrically opposed on a ton of issues, though it looks like they did find common ground on immigration reform. But overall, how much could we credit McCain with stymying some of the very things Kennedy fought so hard for?

Yes, the McCain thing also bothers me.

Whenever a figure like this dies, a lot of people suddenly, hypocritically demand a conciliatory tone, attacking anyone who maintains criticism. In some cases, like Michael Jackson, much of the criticism levied on him was unjust, and people who brought up child molestation in the aftermath were trolls. But for people who are ideologically wrong, have committed evil, etc. some sudden withholding of sentiment isn't conciliatory; it's ignorance, hypocrisy, and a grab for publicity. What would it speak about me if a murderer and rapist of women died, and I rushed to say "well now, let's all be respectful" despite my ardent struggle against sexism? "My ideals are great and everything, yeah, but they all fly out of the window when some vague, ceremonial need for respect in death could make me look like an even-headed, understanding fellow." Laughable. I'm in a hungry hurry, so I'm going to save some time with this:

Quote
The people who reply with sympathy suffer, I think, from a large infiltration of posers. Many of these people, who espoused sympathy for Norwood, were actually trying to position themselves as morally upright and praiseworthy. I donít want to single anybody out, because that isnít the point of my diary, but if you read through the comments you will find no few instances of these fakers selling a message. Fortunately there is no liberal counterpart to Ronald Reaganís eleventh commandment, so I am free to say that these people are as off-putting as the Christian fundamentalists whose holier-than-thou chicanery has brought great social injury to this nation.

Those who offer sympathy genuinely are not off the hook either. They are often guilty of a contradiction: We spend an incredible amount of energy here vilifying and denigrating right-wingers. Many of us get so caught up in the whirlwind as to develop genuine hatred toward these people. Markos leads the charge on this, attacking even the most decent Republicans simply because they are Republicanóthey are the enemy. Indeed, Daily Kos is a partisan Democratic site and our explicit purpose here, our raison d'Ítre, is to win Democratic gains and inflict Republican losses. We are very zealous in that...and very sincere. But our sincerity has ramifications. Do you remember the old Looney Toons cartoons of Sam Sheepdog and Ralph Wolf? Theyíd punch in the clock at work each morning, try to kill each other all day long, then punch out and be chums again in the evening. Is that us? Are we, as Democrats, simply fighting a political game against Republicans? Because thatís what it seems like when people come along and shout, "O, stop the game! Stop, stop! Charlie Norwood is hurt. We all have to stop right now and give him a big hug!" That is awfully cavalier.

So you see the problem. Or perhaps you donít: If conservatives really do deserve all that shit we constantly talk about them, then unconditional sympathy is not an appropriate reply to the fate of somebody like Charlie Norwood. Sympathy itself is not the problem here, but we must qualify it with a stern reminder that this is a Bad Man, and the world is better off with him out of power and perhaps even dead. But many of us cannot stomach that kind of a statement, which leads to the contradiction I mentioned: We want to hate Republicans and yet not hate them at the same. We want to call them the scourge of all that is pure in the land, and yet pretend our differences are insignificant when one of them falls sick. Thatís irresponsible! We canít have it both ways. We have to choose. Very few of us at dKos or anywhere else (and I am not one of them) have been consistently willing to place mutual humanity over political ideology and treat Republicans as wayward friends rather than a true enemy. Indeed, people like that are often accused of trolling. The rest of us have to choose whether Republicans are the villains we paint them out to be, or our ideology is less important than we want to think.

The entire thing is a good read at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/9/299959/-When-Republicans-Die. My point is that this thread, given its source, is an example of this stupid "sympathy" (fake or otherwise) that betrays seriousness. This is not an actual memorial thread for Ted Kennedy, at least not by construction. It's the mark of dishonesty.

ZaichikArky

  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
    • Livejournal
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 10:55:52 pm »
Quote
The entire thing is a good read at http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/2/9/299959/-When-Republicans-Die. My point is that this thread, given its source, is an example of this stupid "sympathy" (fake or otherwise) that betrays seriousness. This is not an actual memorial thread for Ted Kennedy, at least not by construction. It's the mark of dishonesty.

It's a little more clear now. I do think that you do need to give Truth a little more credit, however, because while Truth doesn't agree with the latest health reform, maybe he agrees with other reforms Kennedy made, or... however else he feels about him being an effective politician. Does it really matter who made the thread? Not sure. But I guess I agree that I personally wouldn't want to make a Kennedy memorial thread. To be honest, I'd never heard of him until he died and I read the news. So it would have been very inappropriate for someone like me to make this thread. I too really don't like it when peoples opinions suddenly change and they become all respectful after someone dies. It's kind of hypocritical and dishonest. Was it in Truth's case? I don't fully know, so I can't say.

Lakonthegreat

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 328
  • Love this community, and care for it as your own.
    • View Profile
    • My Myspace
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 10:57:03 pm »
This is not an actual memorial thread for Ted Kennedy, at least not by construction. It's the mark of dishonesty.

And just what gives you the God-like right to determine what other people's motives and actions are? I'm not exactly a conservative, but I sort of ride that side of the fence. I'll admit to anyone that Ted's death was more than likely self-inflicted from the torture he put himself through in regards to alcohol. However, I also have respect and love for him and his family as a fellow man living upon this Earth we've been given. I see this as one of God's magnificent creations leaving this plane and ascending to another. So while this is a sad experience, I'm also joyous that he won't have to suffer with the extreme amount of pain he must have been in in the later years of his life.

I said all that to say this, Z you really need to get off the whole left/right thing and realize we're all just sharing this planet for a little while.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 11:34:27 pm »
I'm not necessarily saying it was a planned move, but it's still ridiculous. Vilify someone's very reason for being, but hold hands and sing when death hits, even if you consider that person's positions to be responsible for the deaths of others.

Quote
we're all just sharing this planet for a little while.

That's a call to political action if I've ever heard one.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2009, 12:08:53 am »
Quote
I'm not necessarily saying it was a planned move, but it's still ridiculous. Vilify someone's very reason for being, but hold hands and sing when death hits, even if you consider that person's positions to be responsible for the deaths of others.

I never did any of that to Ted Kennedy. As I'm his ideological opposite, I didn't necessarily like what he did all of the time, but I still respect him as a fellow man and a truly effective politician, and one that actively represented the will of his constituents.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2009, 12:12:12 am »
You completely, totally missed the point. But that's your trademark.

ZaichikArky

  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
    • Livejournal
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2009, 12:20:19 am »
Z, don't you think it's kind of rude to start an argument in a eulogy thread? I agree that perhaps Truth wasn't the ideal candidate to make the thread, but it's only you who seems to feel that it is despicable to do so....

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2009, 12:23:32 am »
I think it was rude that possibly the person most opposed to Ted Kennedy on these forums is the one to start a thread about him, as if taking some kind of moral high ground.

Lakonthegreat

  • Chronopolitan (+300)
  • *
  • Posts: 328
  • Love this community, and care for it as your own.
    • View Profile
    • My Myspace
Re: RIP Ted Kennedy
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2009, 12:24:57 am »
I think it was rude that possibly the person most opposed to Ted Kennedy on these forums is the one to start a thread about him, as if taking some kind of moral high ground.

I can understand where you're coming from. But he's honestly done what every conservative does. They make mistakes, point fingers, then apologize heartily.