Author Topic: Fuck Buddhism  (Read 6628 times)

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2009, 07:13:37 pm »
Hopefully this won't derail the thread...

What do you mean by "road that leads to J"?

If my opinion is worth more than the next person's, it is essentially because I am more aware and more broadminded than the next person. These qualities are prerequisite to excellence of character, for which “J” is the byword, though it comes not without a touch of...let's call it personal amusement.

This is remarkably easy to explain, given how difficult it is to comprehend. Awareness in particular is one of those damn things that can (usually) only be understood to the extent that it is already possessed. There are essentially two forms: awareness and self-awareness. The latter concerns one's ability to recognize, scrutinize, even criticize one's own mindset. The former is more expansive and concerns one's quality of perception and pattern association.

Therefore, the road to J is very subtly a much less self-aggrandizing expression than it might seem. The J in question refers not to me so much as the character ideals I aspire toward. The road refers to the striving, the very same striving which Buddhism dismisses.

This is the kind of distinction that would do well in Japan, where, if you're going to flatter yourself, you had better do it in what we would think of as the subjunctive mood (or else the future tense). Indeed, there's some merit to doing it like that.

Very well written, Lord J. That is one of the more professional dissertations I've seen you post; by any chance did you already have something along those lines written up (or at least thought out)? It reminds me of something from a "Collected Essays of ____" book.

Thanks. I'm pleased to say that it was completely off the cuff. It took about three hours from inception to completion, yesterday afternoon. I should have been embarrassed if this represented a more significant effort on my part, given how highly I regard my writing abilities.

I can take that one of two ways: If you're referring to my structure and composition and technique, then perhaps I have simply been remiss in writing thoughtfully at the Compendium during your tenure here. The major difference between that post and others is that I gave it a full edit after finishing. (More commonly I only edit as I go.) Structurally speaking, my work always benefits from at least one full edit, because ideas don't always connect the way I intend.

If, on the other hand, you're referring to the tenor and style, well, what can I say? I consider it typical of my output, but perhaps my less controversial tone here struck you as “more professional.”

Frankly atheists piss me off.

That pleases me.

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2009, 09:20:38 pm »
Quote
...why do you hate religion so much? People like to have some moral guidelines, and not just some moral guidelines but ones the community can agree on...Frankly atheists piss me off.
Speaking as what some would call a "religious apologist," I must admit I've reached the conclusion that moral guidelines stem from rational thought alone. Atheists and theists are both perfectly capable of this, and are on equal footing in their human capacity to develop sound morality (atheists would argue that we're the ones being held back morally by irrational influences). Things like whether we should inflict physical and emotional pain on others -- the answer is "no." It should be simple, but there are a fair share of instances in which scripture itself contradicts rational moral thought. It's best to do one's own thinking on these matters; in fact, I feel the New Testament's greatest asset as a religious text is the message that one must ultimately look outside religion and tradition to find moral truths. That's the message I got out of it anyway. Various Sufi Muslim clerics have left similarly thought-provoking messages over the centuries.

As for providing a rubric an entire community can agree on, religion also fails there, as does every other human institution. Everyone's going to have their own interpretation of something they've read; it's inevitable. My Pope, like Miss California, rejects gay marriage; after doing serious thinking on the matter, many Catholics have concluded that this attitude is morally reprehensible. Some Catholics will read the New Testament and see within it a command to go out and stone gay people; I read the New Testament and it gives me the courage to call my Pope flat-out wrong on this particular matter. Same exact text, totally different ways of cherrypicking. An objective observer would probably say both interpretations of the text are "radical."

In the end, religion has worth to you because you believe there exists a being commonly called "God," and religion is a path to communing with that inherently unknowable being in some feeble way. There are also undeniable cultural and social opportunities afforded by religious institutions, but those are ultimately secondary to the one, main purpose it ultimately boils down to.

Atheists, in the most basic sense, feel no such compulsion, and therefore they do not need religion to feel complete as individuals. The great challenge is learning how to get along with one another when all that separates us is something so trivial. If atheists piss you off when they criticize religion, just remember that atheists have been on the receiving end of verbal abuse from religious people for just as long. It's far better to agree to disagree than to get angry over it.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:25:49 pm by FaustWolf »

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2009, 09:32:56 pm »
God, Zeality, why do you hate religion so much? People like to have some moral guidelines, and not just some moral guidelines but ones the community can agree on. And furthermore I really hate when people bring up extremists. They are crazy that's why we call them extreme. Frankly atheists piss me off. Once I saw a building called "The Church of Atheism", I thought it was funny.

That's why I'm glad I'm agnostic. Y'all hate on each other too much...and mostly because of stupid misunderstandings.

BELIEVE IN YOURSELF AND TEH POWER IS YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOURS~!!

I forget where I could have learned something like that...I'm sure ZeaLitY has an image somewhere that might explain...

IAmSerge

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 964
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2009, 10:09:31 pm »
I don't hate on anyone.

actually, I do. I hate on haters. it's not cool to hate.

...thats some form of paradoxical hypocricy >.<

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2009, 12:33:27 am »
The road refers to the striving, the very same striving which Buddhism dismisses.

This is wrong.  If you were to say "nirvanism", which you referred to earlier, instead of Buddhism, I would say you are probably correct. 

From the Dhammapada:
Quote
91: Those who have high thoughts are ever striving: they are not happy to remain in the same place.  Like swans that leave their lake and rise into the air, they leave their home for a higher home.
111:  Better than a hundred years lived in ignorance, without contemplation, is one single day of life lived in wisdom and in deep contemplation.
112: Better than a hundred years lived in idleness and in weakness is a single day of life lived with courage and powerful striving.
370: Cut off the five--selfishness, doubt, wrong austerities and rites*, lust, hate; throw off the five--the desire to be born with a body, or without a body, self-will*, restlessness, ignorance; but cherish five--faith, watchfulness, energy, contemplation, vision.  He who has broken the five letters--lust, hate, delusion, pride, false views---is one who has crossed to the other shore.
375: This is the beginning of the live of a wise monk; self-control of the senses, happiness, living under the moral law, and the association with good friends whose life is pure and who are ever striving.

*Where 370 is concerned:  This takes a little dissecting to truly understand.  "Wrong austerities and rites" seem to be the kinds of things which Zeality was really harping on in the beginning of this thread.  Most experienced Buddhists would know that a person has nothing to gain from that which he dismissed in his rather unique fashion.  Where "self-will" is admonished, that statement could be interpreted as the kind of foolish selflessness which seems to come with "nirvanism", but in the same chapter he mentions the "Self" with a capital S.  Without trying to read to much into that, save it to mean the higher Self, which some would say is a foolish notion of a god-self.  I just take it to mean the self which is above the most base desires; the self that contemplates actions and strives to be wise and good in life, etc. 

A lot of terms in the basic Buddhist texts cannot just be taken at face value.  The word "desire" for example, where the Buddha talks about forsaking desire, cannot possibly mean everything which could constitute desire.  It's a specific type of desire the Buddha talks about, and it's the kind of desire that could hold a person back from being able to "leave their lake and rise into the air".  Likewise "suffering", "attachments", etc.; most of the familiar and, in a sense, overused terms with regard to Buddhism all mean particular types of that which is described. 

It's easy to read ridiculousness into the basic tenets of Buddhism just to discount it.  But before one does that it's important to remember that to come to any kind of deeper understanding of Buddhism before discounting it in such a way does not make one an apologist, if that's what some in this thread are trying to avoid.

I am also not trying to be an apologist.  I'm just trying to lift the concept of Buddhism that is being presented in this thread out of the haze.  It seems like those who are speaking out the most with regard to Buddhism are doing so more with the aim of discounting it outright than trying to reach some understanding of it here.  If I am mistaken about that, let me know.  (Granted, the title of this thread is "Fuck Buddhism"...)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 12:53:33 am by Uboa »

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2009, 12:38:27 am »
God, Zeality, why do you hate religion so much? People like to have some moral guidelines, and not just some moral guidelines but ones the community can agree on. And furthermore I really hate when people bring up extremists. They are crazy that's why we call them extreme. Frankly atheists piss me off. Once I saw a building called "The Church of Atheism", I thought it was funny.

At least you never hear about extremist atheists. That would really piss you off.

IAmSerge

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 964
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2009, 12:42:17 am »
Damn religious debates... can we please just stop?!


Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2009, 12:46:34 am »
I don't know what an extremist atheist would do to warrant the title.  I guess it would have too be along the lines of blowing up churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, or any number of other holy houses.

The closest I've seen to atheist "extremism" might be the Rational Response Squad, just because the followers of the RRS aren't more wont to discredit the sophomoric way in which their organization tends to operate.

(This is replying to Mr. Bekkler)

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2009, 12:50:02 am »
Damn religious debates... can we please just stop?!

At least this hasn't escalated to an all out flame war!  (yet)

IAmSerge

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 964
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2009, 12:55:35 am »
no but its still annoying...

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2009, 01:10:26 am »
It can be, but debate is also healthy.  You can't sharpen metal without grinding it on metal, or some other material.  Same goes with the human mind.

I'm glad that this thread has given me an opportunity to exercise my philosophical debate style a bit.  It's been way too long since I've done so, and I realized that after reading several of the posts in this thread.  I really haven't known how to respond to a lot of what has been said here, even though I've wanted to respond.  Seems I've just needed the practice in verbalizing my thoughts and my reasoning.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10797
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2009, 01:16:43 am »
Quote
remember that atheists have been on the receiving end of verbal abuse from religious people for just as long

...That's one of the least egregious of religion's sins, though. Religious people on whole should be pissed off about a lot more. And yet, for example, the Catholics I've spoken to somehow disclaim responsibility for a Pope hellbent on killing in Africa through the banning of condoms, or a Pope who'd excommunicate a rape victim's family because they chose not to bear the rapist's child. Where's the outrage by so called common sense people who happen to be Catholics? Even my mother, in a discussion about sexism, because silent when I raised these criticisms of her old faith.

Quote
Damn religious debates... can we please just stop?!

Fuck no. I'm guessing you thought that list of atrocities I posted earlier that are committed daily is just perfectly normal on this earth. I guess it doesn't bother you that millions of women are being taught to look upon their own bodies and processes with disgust, or that millions of LBGT are being barred from enjoying civil rights, or that right now, at least several humans on earth, at this second, are engaged in war or violence because of religious motives. Fuck that. Religion is a facilitator of evil and a neurological disorder of irrationality. Good atheists won't rest until it's expunged from humanity.

Quote
A lot of terms in the basic Buddhist texts cannot just be taken at face value.

This virtually increases the blame of Buddhism as a religion for oppressing humanity, because not only does it make these pronouncements, but does it so confusingly and communicates its concepts so poorly that we result with these popular conceptions and practices. It's like when people say, "The Quran does not profess violence." No, but Islam as practice certainly facilitates such an interpretation. At this point, apologists will say, "well, that's a problem with people, not religion." Semantics; remove religion and you remove the problem at the source.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 01:18:45 am by ZeaLitY »

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2009, 01:27:57 am »
Damn religious debates... can we please just stop?!

I think you need to go back a few pages in the General Discussion & learn yoself some 'pendium history, bub.

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2009, 02:19:49 am »
Damn religious debates... can we please just stop?!

I think you need to go back a few pages in the General Discussion & learn yoself some 'pendium history, bub.
Nope, just one page back in the slogan thread:
The Chrono Compendium - Where 95% of all threads turn into a detailed philosophical debate about religion
Oh, Thought. How true. Not that I mind! This is extremely entertaining.

IAmSerge

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 964
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Buddhism
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2009, 02:22:20 am »
*sigh* silly me, my bad >.> ?