Author Topic: Let's Talk Difficulty  (Read 5673 times)

Agent 12

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Let's Talk Difficulty
« on: February 15, 2009, 10:21:22 pm »
OK, lots of complaints about the difficulty here.  I want to give people a little background on the why this decision was made so I don't look crazy.  But first off let me skip to the end:

*I'll make the game easier* 

It's pretty evident from the beta testing that the game is hard.  While I have personally done a full playthrough (albeit awhile ago) I obviously know the game inside and out so I wasn't really a good judge.  The other person who probably has beta tested the most is cybersnarkany who is an RPG battle guru so i guess he's not really relevant.  And finally Zeality who was able to get through stuff but he did say the game was hard.  So as you can see we did need this beta testing to get a good grasp of what's going on. 

Now in an FAQ that hasn't been realised I actually have a question for "Why is the game so hard".  I knew going into this that CE was going to be a difficult game but we did that purposely for a few reasons:

1) One of the VERY few complaints about CT original was that it was too easy (probably second after too short which imo isn't a complains as much as a compliment :) ).
2) The CT fanbase is older now, maybe this doesn't apply as much now that CT:DS is released, but during the majority of CE's development I thought the average player would be 20 something years old, Old school gamer who knows his way around a turn based RPG Battle
3) I wanted techs to be a much more integral part of the battle system.  I personally didn't really use many techs in CT...spire on magus, lightning on nizbel....and spamming luminaire.

The people who have gotten farther than beast forest have almost certainly see the amazingness of OmniShield.  I admit you're not going to get through beast forest w/o using this but I definitely think (actually know), that once you know about that tech that dungeon is very doable.  I dont mind forcing people to use a tech cause magus is supposed to be a sorcerer at heart.  Maybe you shouldn't have to level up a couple times but heck he hasn't been in battle for 5 years so he needs to brushen up.  I also made haste and protect affect everyone. 

It looks like this was an unpopular decision and 99 said it best in another thread...it's a chrono trigger game it should be easy.  So i'll go through and tone things down, I just wanted to let everyone know that I didn't force an impossible game on you guys, it was a legitimate decision I made...

Sorry.....and thanks for beta testing I know it sucks to be like....guinea pigs or whatever I promise I'll do my best to make it better and soon.

--JP

maggiekarp

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 10:36:20 pm »
I was concerned about the Omni Shield because it didn't seem to work when I cast it, but I'll try again using it first.

Agent 12

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 10:39:08 pm »
It's a pretty awesome spell (casts protect and shell so it helps against physical and magical attacks).  :)

I'm pretty sure it makes magus glow when it works.

--JP


Agent 12

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 10:46:45 pm »
Cap just saw one more thing i should probably explain.   People mentioned fiona's forest being hard for just crono, this is another design decision....There's a point in the game where that forest acts as the only possible levelling up spot before a boss.  At that point in the game you have Crono, Marle and lucca so I made the stats for that party.  All of those battles are easily avoidable in the prologue when you are just crono, so I didn't think it was a major deal.  I guess I'd like some feedback on that. 

Cause Zeality also tried to fight there with just crono in the prologue, so it seems like RPG players see an enemy and refuse to progress until they kill it :)


--JP

Edit:  One more thing, it seems like my little point about giving me an SRM every time an enemy is to hard is mainly falling on death ears (though Jusin is doing a good job about giving me srms for show stoppers).  I would still prefer you to send me an SRM so I can repro the fight, see what level you were at that point in the game ans so on.  But if this is too much ( and it's OK if it is I know i'm asking alot) can you atleast give me a percentage too hard of difficulty....for example.....his attacks are doing twice as much damage as they should, I'd likd to be able to do 10% more damage per hit.  This would really help me when I  have the stats in front of me so I can just like double offense, or lower defense by 10%.  Otherwise it's kind of just me shooting in the dark cause I dont have a save state to see to what degree a fight was to hard.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 10:50:28 pm by jsondag2 »

maggiekarp

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 11:05:27 pm »
If Magus started at a slightly higher level or had imps to work on first it wouldn't be so bad. With the shield the damage is reduced to 7-36, but that's still a lot when you have two creatures attacking you twice before you can heal.

Agent 12

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 11:10:39 pm »
Well the thing I think i learned the hard way through this beta is (and this is totally understandable), people aren't going to use the techs unless we tell them too :(.  It's probably just the fact that this is a crono game and people are expecting that experience, and well......they're right that's what we should deliver. 

I'd rather reduce the stats of the enemies then release and have the first 40 feedbacks being people saying they can't get through beast forest ( it'd make me sad :( )

--JP

maggiekarp

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 11:27:58 pm »
I'm just saying it's pretty ridiculous to have us fight Golem Boss at level 3.

[edit]I also don't buy the explanation that Magus let himself slip that much. The dude is pretty much nothing but mopeyness and push-ups.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 11:32:44 pm by maggiekarp »

justin3009

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 01:04:32 pm »
Oh I'm definitely using techs up the wall just to get past one battle.  I'll do a re-playthrough once I get through my first one, which I'm pretty much at the end of the game now.  I'll see about making a list of who is overpowered and what might possibly be changed.

Ramsus

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 03:00:01 pm »
General rule of thumb: The first hour of gameplay shouldn't involve any real strategy or require any level building. It should be straight through playable with just regular attacks.

This is regardless of how easy or difficult the game is intended to be, because the player needs time to sort of sink their teeth into the story and get a taste for the game. If that means starting Magus at level 6 or 7, then that's fair in my book.

After the story's progressed a few chapters and the stage is set is when you should start introducing elements requiring some strategy. Then once the stage is set and the initial rush has slowed down, you can start requiring higher levels and more strategy to continue.

I'll provide more detail notes about my thoughts on this matter as I get a chance beta test.

Lenophis

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 06:35:13 pm »
OK, lots of complaints about the difficulty here.  I want to give people a little background on the why this decision was made so I don't look crazy.  But first off let me skip to the end:

*I'll make the game easier* 

It's pretty evident from the beta testing that the game is hard.  While I have personally done a full playthrough (albeit awhile ago) I obviously know the game inside and out so I wasn't really a good judge.  The other person who probably has beta tested the most is cybersnarkany who is an RPG battle guru so i guess he's not really relevant.  And finally Zeality who was able to get through stuff but he did say the game was hard.  So as you can see we did need this beta testing to get a good grasp of what's going on.
I personally love the approach of making it harder, and once I hit 5 I was pretty safe in the beast forest. Getting from 1 to 5 can be a pretty daunting task, though. I suppose both Magic Tabs and the Power Tab can considerably shift the balance in your favor (assuming you find all 3 items). It is nice to see that the initial balance did not require you finding these items. That said, you guys did make the right approach.

The Magic Jinn/Lasher fight in Dalton's lab though were insane. I wound up having to run from them, because even with OmniShield, I stood no chance of surviving. I entered at level 7, if it matters.

maggiekarp

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 08:40:41 pm »
I was about level 3 when I fought the Golem Boss and I didn't use the tabs at all. It was difficult and I had to heal every other turn, but I pulled it off.

It's terrifying to think that people had as much difficulty at twice the level.

Agent 12

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 04:56:57 am »
Hey guys one thing that might help me is after you finish a chapter just give it a difficulty rating.  Doesn't have to be anythings scientific or anything a simple easy/medium hard will do but if you want to give more detail go for it :)

--JP

Agent 12

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2009, 07:27:13 pm »
Hey everyone,

If you can post lucca's current level and her current speed stat I'd like to investigate if somehow her speed is different than what it was in CT: Orig.   If someone already posted her current level => speed you dont need to but you all seem to be at different points in the game.

We had a similar issue in the demo where after leveling up once Magus power went to **....i'm wondering if there's something similar going on.

--JP

V_Translanka

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 03:25:36 am »
I think the difficulty is more of oldschool RPGameplay where even in the beginning you need to level a bit (level 5 was a norm for most RPGs I remember playing)...I don't think it NEEDS to be changed, but if you up everyone's levels to 3 at the start, I think that would solve this complaint rather easily...though I think this should be optional.

Lenophis

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Re: Let's Talk Difficulty
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 03:33:28 am »
Potential problem regarding the Nizbel fight (you guys don't have a spoiler tag?). If you haven't been stockpiling on Ethers or Potions (actually, now that I think about it, I haven't seen Ethers for sale yet), then you could be in a bit of a pickle. Nizbel is extremely beefy, and I've been going through my Ethers like a crack-addict his crack. (Probably a bad comparison, but you know.) Singing Mountain is pretty tough, but considering the rewards of the battles the difficulty is justified.

Anyway, the point I was going to make is, I don't know if you can get out of here, and there's no shop that sells items down here that I've seen. If you run out, you could be screwed and stuck in a no-win scenario.