Author Topic: Satanism = Bad?  (Read 8689 times)

justin3009

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2008, 01:48:42 am »
Quote
Meanwhile, when someone reaches a conclusion that does not fit with my own position, one of three things happens:

1. I see a flaw in their reasoning, allowing me to press the issue if I so desire.

2. I see no flaw in their reasoning, and attribute our different positions to matters of style, preference, or taste.

3. I see no flaw in their reasoning, and incorporate the new conclusion into my own thinking.

To #1: So if we don't go with your reasoning, it means it's flawed and incorrect?  Hmm...

Lord J Esq

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2008, 02:48:51 am »
Quote from: justin3009
To #1: So if we don't go with your reasoning, it means it's flawed and incorrect?  Hmm...

You're mistaking cause with effect. If your reasoning is flawed and incorrect, I'm likely to point that out. My pointing it out doesn't make it flawed and incorrect. You yourself make it flawed and incorrect. I'm just the auditor.

But perhaps you were talking about the validity of my critique. Well, of course, that is where the argument comes in. Interesting, how that works!

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2008, 05:44:25 am »
You do like to bash people down to nothing and do "Krispin this" and "Krispin" that.
They have a...history.
I have the slightest feeling I've created another "Oh no. Oh God No." thread.
Ouch :( I swear we've had "worse"

Ramsus

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2008, 08:59:00 am »

I am reading a strong individualism here. Is that closer to your meaning? If so, I commend you and have only one criticism: As I understand it, what you are offering is a worldview that relies upon the assumption that the power required for self-determination is freely available. In other words, you seem to assume that you, Ramsus, would still have been Ramsus, even had you been born into another body, in another time or circumstance, and thus, as Ramsus, would have been able to recognize possibilities from which you might strive to best change the world according to your abilities.

I'm here to say that it is not so. If you had been born a slave, ideology and philosophy would almost certainly not have been in your life. The knowledge and formal intellectual discipline required to even have the kinds of thoughts that lead to the recognition of possibilities from which the world might be changed for the better, was not available to slaves. It isn't even available today, in our supposedly free world, because most people have not got the means to ask the questions or even make the observations that set the whole ball of self-actualization in motion.

I sympathize with your individualist streak. I feel the same way myself. Where we differ is that I perceive an onus upon those who are able to see and to ask. It isn't enough to horde what modest wisdom we have all to ourselves. To me, virtuous living requires giving others the opportunity to think for themselves, and determine their own course in life. That's why I support causes like feminism and public education, and that's why I oppose troubles like Christian fundamentalism. You see, Ramsus, the fact of the matter is this: No matter how ambitious you are...no matter how honorable you may be, or how able to learn, no matter how talented you might become, none of this counts for a damn if you are born into a society where you are controlled, oppressed, disenfranchised, marginalized, or, worse, excluded or enslaved. It's that simple.

William Gates, Sr., once pointed this out, and went on to say that it is because we choose to live in this society together, paying taxes and abiding by the rule of law, that America and other countries have been able to flourish. Without our personal willingness to invest our wallets and our liberty into this common social enterprise all around us, the police would not function, the grocery store shelves would go empty, the concert halls would be looted, and society would collapse.

If even just for our own self-interest, to say nothing of true honor, we have to concern ourselves with others. It isn't enough to treat the rest of the world as what you call “natural.” Everything has to be on the table. Everything has to be “in bounds.” No sacred cows, no unconditional respect of one another's sovereignty. We are human beings, and we must interfere. The question, therefore, is whether our interference will count for anything virtuous. But that's where individualism comes in.

Disagree you?

Most of my current philosophy owes a great deal in its formation to the same Stoic philosophy that Marcus Aurelius followed in his life, and whose philosophers included amongst their greatest ranks none other than a slave who lived nothing more than a simple and frugal life. Certainly, not everyone can know philosophy and virtue, and much of what I have is owed to circumstance, and that I do not doubt.

However, none of it is individualist, in that I've come to accept that man is a social creature, and that my role is one within society, and that my abilities exist not for selfish gain but for the changing of society and helping of others. More than that, I can feel a higher sense of purpose in the things that I do.

If I can help others see virtue and find philosophy, then certainly I have an obligation to do so, just as the slave Epictetus taught many people his beliefs. However, if I should find that doing so takes up time better suited towards other ends, such as freeing people from oppression through invention or social reform, then that is where life leads me. After all, we aren't all great teachers, and some of us must simply be doers.

That is why I spend time thinking of social change and how to improve society, but spend no time thinking of how to convert the people around me to my specific way of thinking. The odds of me being able to do the former are much better than the latter, and the latter may be of no benefit even if accomplished, as many people have already found their own philosophies that they deem adequate for life and present them with more than enough strength to serve their role in society and live virtuous lives.

And though I be emotionally indifferent to the choices others have made as they affects me, I am fully concerned with every choice that I make, as it affects others, as I believe the choices I make can influence the entire society of man, and that every moment I live helps make change. So too will I question the cause of their choices and determine, if they be destructive to themselves and to society, how to fix that problem, as these can be the basis of my own choices.

And so, in this way, I readily and daily concern much of my thinking to ways in which I can influence society to bring about better change.

My life is a social one of mostly questioning and seeing, and so I don't fully understand your criticism.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 09:17:06 am by Ramsus »

Zaulche

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2008, 10:02:30 am »
Is satanism bad? Well, good and bad are a matter of interpretation. That is every individual has their own opinion based on their own perception of reality (which itself can be a whole other debate).

It might be more effective to instead argue whether practicing satanism is beneficial, as in does it provide some value in your quest to become a better person (regardless of what you think "better" is).

In that respect, I would have to say that I do not see the practice of satanism as beneficial because it, like many religions, establishes a set of beliefs that are to be followed on faith without, upon further examination, actually answering any of the questions they propose to answer (the general things, such as what is your purpose, why are you here, how did you come to be here, et cetera). I believe in working towards achieving a state of higher consciousness, which necessitates free thinking. This is something that I find hard to do with the dogma of organized religion.

That is not to say that there are not beneficial principles of satanism (thought I have not looked into it in depth enough to know of any, it is possible that there are some). Again, like many religions, there are concepts of morality and grains of wisdom and life lessons in the myths and legends that may and do cause inspiration for greater things. However, this may be done through research and does not require participation in masses or other rituals (although attending them can help in gaining a better understanding of the mindset of people that a particular denomination attracts).

So, back to the main question. Is Satanism bad? While there may be something to gain from understanding the principles Satanism is founded on, I believe the actual practice derived and taught from said principles would not be beneficial in the long run.

Than again this is also based on my own perceptions. Who is to say what would ultimately be beneficial to you but yourself?

Lord J Esq

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2008, 09:30:22 pm »
Quote from: Ramsus
That is why I spend time thinking of social change and how to improve society, but spend no time thinking of how to convert the people around me to my specific way of thinking.

If you were to take the concept that you call “conversion” here, and make it more passive, I think you would see that the underlying impulse is not to proselytize but to check. If social change and the improvement of society is your goal, you can only get so far until the interests of other people become relevant. At that point, you can't simply decide what's best for them in one fell swoop. First you have to understand them, and reconcile their “specific ways of thinking,” as you put it, with your own.

If somebody else has a good point to make, we need to be able to give them the opportunity to make it—especially if we are going to come in to any type of mass power. Our ideas must be able to account for the disagreements of others. The only way to do that is to engage. It comes down to perspective and coherence; any strong ideology requires both.

So, if you were to think that this is about converting people like a missionary might, then you would be correct not to spend any time on it. But it's not about that. It's about checking your own thoughts. You can't sit back and figure out the world all by yourself. You need to interact with it. But now I repeat myself.

Quote from: Ramsus
My life is a social one of mostly questioning and seeing, and so I don't fully understand your criticism.

Some part of my criticism was off-balance, in that I didn't understand your position as well before as I do now. I'm still not sure that I am understanding your full meaning. This is why it is important for you to “dare” make that effort to put your ideas into words clearly. Otherwise you risk being misunderstood, or even ignored. Perhaps, in your calculations, that is just as well...but such an attitude would require of you some powerful skills at judging other people—lest you protract or outright hinder your own objectives.

In conclusion, speaking more generally, criticism from me usually shouldn't be taken with a negative connotation. If you're Daniel Krispin, then it's fair to assume the worst, but otherwise you should be glad that someone else of any intelligence has given you the occasion to further your own thinking. I'm very pragmatic about all of this argument stuff. Those who can't handle the heat, should get the hell out. Everything here is an opportunity. To see it any other way is pure interference of ego.

placidchap

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2008, 09:27:03 am »
Those who can't handle the heat, should get the hell out. Everything here is an opportunity.

Everything except getting the hell out.  Probably better to shut up and observe than to upright and leave.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2008, 07:29:57 pm »
That would imply they can handle the heat.

MsBlack

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2008, 08:03:46 pm »
Wow. Just wow. Anybody have the time to count how many things are wrong with this?

While I still think I had a point and I did indeed support this, it was, on its own (which it was) an apparently pointless and only antagonistic remark, not conducive to meaningful discourse. My apologies.

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2008, 08:14:37 pm »
Thanks, MsBlack. Apology accepted. Looking back, I see that I was really naiive in my actions, so you do indeed have a good point.

Mez

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2008, 02:42:10 pm »
I think satanism has nothing to do with summoning of the devil or mad ghosts...
Those people who call them satanists because they make any sick rituals or prey to the devil are not better than any christ. This satanism is like any other religion.
I think the real satanism has more to do with the free will.
In this satanism are no additional rules like in the christianity.
This satanism is more a life-style than a religion.

placidchap

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2008, 03:10:07 pm »
A religion is a lifestyle.

Mez

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Re: Satanism = Bad?
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2008, 03:47:53 pm »
Sorry, yeah.. You are right. Err.. how can I explain it..
If a human is a satanism, he is his own god. He or she make its own rules. Satan is the symbol for the resistance to religious dogmas.. The individuality is very important. Magic and occultism not (but its interesting..)

My view of satanism ;)