Author Topic: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?  (Read 2879 times)

Starman Invincible

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Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« on: May 17, 2008, 09:06:47 pm »
I was reading the Guardia Line Paradox mini-article and it hit me: Wouldn't this paradox also apply to Chrono Cross?  I mean, people here always seem to be boasting about the alleged single plot hole in Cross, so this seems very, very strange.

See, Leah strongly implies that Ayla is her daughter, and yet there she is in 1020 AD.  If Leah disappears from 65M BC, she doesn't mother Ayla, and then Marle ceases to exist, which would probably prevent Chrono Trigger altogether, which would prevent Cross altogether.

V_Translanka

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 09:22:17 pm »
Quote from: Leah
   Land calling-um Leah...
   Time Leah go-um home.
   Leah already have-um
   name for Leah's child.
   Big, strong name.

   Aylaaaaaa!!!
   New song of land!

I don't know if I'd personally say that's a "strong implication" that CT's Ayla is the daughter of Leah...Surely, it's a possibility, but I think you have to consider the possibility that it's just another Glenn-same-name-wink-at-the-fans kind of deal...probably because aside from that all Ayla fans got was the orphanage pic & a kiddie, chibi version of Ayla w/3 similar Techs...

BUT, if you're going to go the route that CT Ayla=Leah's daughter then you have to figure that in both Keystone Timelines that Leah was sent to the future and then made it back to the past. We really just don't know enough about Leah or her circumstances in getting to Gaea's Navel to make any concrete theories...hooray for another brilliant Cross character...?

Kebrel

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 09:37:32 pm »
THREE CHEERS TO V! THE THEORY SMASHER!

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 10:03:18 pm »
THREE CHEERS TO V! THE THEORY SMASHER!

And V_Translanka shall go down in history as a hero! Remember kids, he did this AFTER he slayed the foul Glenn/Frog thread.

..And they all lived happilly ever after.

Kebrel

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 10:06:26 pm »
Plus doesn't  the fact that its was 65million years ago make some sort of difference? think about how much one event can change/become pointless if given enough time.

Starman Invincible

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 10:20:13 pm »
Um... OK.  It seems the tendency to declare victory preemptively is a bit prevalent here.  Anyway:

Plus doesn't  the fact that its was 65million years ago make some sort of difference? think about how much one event can change/become pointless if given enough time.

That was my point.  This logic is used to try to explain the GLP itself, so perhaps it's not a paradox at all?

Quote from: Leah
   Land calling-um Leah...
   Time Leah go-um home.
   Leah already have-um
   name for Leah's child.
   Big, strong name.

   Aylaaaaaa!!!
   New song of land!

I don't know if I'd personally say that's a "strong implication" that CT's Ayla is the daughter of Leah...Surely, it's a possibility, but I think you have to consider the possibility that it's just another Glenn-same-name-wink-at-the-fans kind of deal...probably because aside from that all Ayla fans got was the orphanage pic & a kiddie, chibi version of Ayla w/3 similar Techs...

BUT, if you're going to go the route that CT Ayla=Leah's daughter then you have to figure that in both Keystone Timelines that Leah was sent to the future and then made it back to the past. We really just don't know enough about Leah or her circumstances in getting to Gaea's Navel to make any concrete theories...hooray for another brilliant Cross character...?

Chrono'99 also seemed to make the assumption that "Ayla" referred to the actual Ayla in the Reptite Dimension Key theory in Origin of Leah.  (In fact, that article doesn't even consider the possibility of a different Ayla at all.)  Indeed, I cannot deny the possibility of it being otherwise, but it doesn't really seem likely to me as Ayla is the in-game name, whereas Glenn was called Frog.

Your other explanation is pretty much saying that nobody knows.  As far as I can see, it's still a paradox according to the standards that apparently categorized GLP as a paradox.  Maybe GLP shouldn't be considered be a paradox at all.  The whole notion of a plot hole is very subjective with such a vague story, anyway.

V_Translanka

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 12:09:33 am »
Quote from: Starman Invincible
Um... OK.  It seems the tendency to declare victory preemptively is a bit prevalent here.

Don't mind them...as far as I can tell, they've been acting weird since I got moderized...>_>

My knowledge of Cross theory is sketchy at best and I didn't/don't really tend to look into them...I'm definitely not claiming any sort of 'victory' here...I think my last two sentences in my first post show that much at least...

Quote
it doesn't really seem likely to me as Ayla is the in-game name, whereas Glenn was called Frog.

Glenn was called Frog by Crono & Co. By most everyone else (Cyrus & Leene anyways?) he was referred to as Glenn...and in CC they say that Cross Glenn was named after a hero from the past (i.e. Trigger Glenn).

Quote
Your other explanation is pretty much saying that nobody knows.  As far as I can see, it's still a paradox according to the standards that apparently categorized GLP as a paradox.  Maybe GLP shouldn't be considered be a paradox at all.  The whole notion of a plot hole is very subjective with such a vague story, anyway.

Well, basically my other suggestion was just that it doesn't create a plot hole because it always happens in the normal flow of time...It's not a great assumption to think that whatever force sent Leah to the future also sent her back.

Also, like I say...I'm not familiar...GLP?

ZealKnight

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 02:03:39 pm »
We could say that ayla is the daughter of leah but then we would have to say that she ends up at 65MBC after the events in CC. Or at least she gives birth to ayla and ayla flies through time some how and ends up at mystic mountain. And if I remember correctly Alya and Kino were both found at mystic mountain not born in 65MBC.

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 02:07:18 pm »
Also, like I say...I'm not familiar...GLP?

Gaurdia Line Paradox

Starman Invincible

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 05:49:09 pm »
Glenn was called Frog by Crono & Co. By most everyone else (Cyrus & Leene anyways?) he was referred to as Glenn...and in CC they say that Cross Glenn was named after a hero from the past (i.e. Trigger Glenn).

Well, basically my other suggestion was just that it doesn't create a plot hole because it always happens in the normal flow of time...It's not a great assumption to think that whatever force sent Leah to the future also sent her back.

1. Frog was called Frog in the character profile, which is what I meant.  Actually, if Cross specifically states that Glenn is named after a hero from the past, that sort of helps me.

2. All I'm saying is that if we assume that Leah is Ayla's mother (which I suppose isn't exactly the most sound assumption ever, as you've said), then we now have a timeline where Leah never existed (in the "proper" time) to birth Ayla, regardless of whatever comes to send her back "after the adventure".

We could say that ayla is the daughter of leah but then we would have to say that she ends up at 65MBC after the events in CC. Or at least she gives birth to ayla and ayla flies through time some how and ends up at mystic mountain. And if I remember correctly Alya and Kino were both found at mystic mountain not born in 65MBC.

Who's the father?

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2008, 06:00:44 pm »
Who's the father?

Korcha, obviously.


...what?


Jk, My assumption would probably be some other Cave-person...

Starman Invincible

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2008, 06:07:10 pm »
What other cave-person?

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2008, 06:10:59 pm »
Someone unspecified, I guess. I'm not sure if Ayla's father was mentioned at any point in CT then there you have it. It's just like Crono's Father: He was most likely an average, normal dude.

Thought

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 11:18:53 am »
Don't mind them...as far as I can tell, they've been acting weird since I got moderized...>_>

It's the magus icon. If just feels so... wrong not to see the Lavos icon next to your name.

Also, like I say...I'm not familiar...GLP?

Guardia Line Paradox; Marle, Doan, and the entire Guardia Royal Family (possibly including Schala and Magus, but that is uncertain) should cease to exist as soon as Ayla leaves the past, as she is then no longer in the past to have the children that will eventually lead to the Guardia Royal Line.

My explanation to such a paradox is ... really besides the point, but if anyone cares, read this paragraph. If not, skip to the next. Anywho, my explanation to such a paradox is what I like to refer to as "Time Index." Like the index of a book, each individual person has a personal timeline along which certain events happen. Those events only happen at the proper page number (or point in time). For a normal individual, a change at any point in the timeline will immediately effect the rest of their timeline, from a Time Error perspective. However, for a time traveler, events can only change when both the individual's age and the events proper place in that person's time line match. That is, when Ayla becomes a time traveler, she can't suddenly not have children when she was (lets say) 30 if she isn't 30 yet. Only events in a time traveler's past or present can change the timeline; not events in a time traveler's future (which is why Crono doesn't defeat Lavos before he actually faces him in the final battle).

Anywho, the problem with Leah is that she makes no sense. Was she sent from the 65,000,000 BC to 1020 AD? If so, how? Gaia's Naval is clearly supposed to be a "Lost World" sort of setting, but does this just imply the continued existance of old life forms or does it imply time travel? Given how poorly about 1/3 to 1/2 of the characters in CC were designed, I'd say that the designers intent was simple along the lines of the following:

Designer #1: "Gee, people liked that cave-girl from the first game. We should include another one."
Designer #2: "Ayla didn't live in a cave, she wasn't a cave-girl. But that would be fun. What sort of character development should we plan for her?"
Designer #1: "Oh that is easy; she needs to say '-um' after a lot of words. Like 'its clobberin' time-um'."
Designer #2: "That's a bad accent, not character development."
Designer #1: "I'm sorry, I spaced out there for a moment. Did you just agree with using '-um' for character development? Sorry, don't have time for you to repeat your answer, I'll assume it was a yes. Now... what about including some guy with no pants?"

In short, I highly doubt the designers even considered the implications of Leah or the subsequent implications of her being Ayla's mother. Doesn't mean that we can't consider the implications for them, but unfortunately designer oversight does make for some very nasty plot holes.

It is quite possible that Gaia's Naval and the Mystic Mts. do have a temporal connection. However, without the gate key, how would Leah get back in time anyone (or forward in time in the first place)?

To note... Leah (and the Green Dragon) are only present in Home World. The Ghost Children, which are only present in Home World, specifically state that they no longer exist in that time line (or something to that effect). It may be that since Leah is present in 1020, she actually is removing an important element of the guardia royal line from history. We only assume that in Home World Marle existed.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: Guardia Line Paradox in Cross?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2008, 12:14:58 am »
Well we know that Gaea's Navel existed outside of the Chrono Cross time line.  Although it isn't visible during the events of Chrono Trigger, it is there.  We see within the bowels of Chronopolis that it is the only natural component of El Nido.  Looking at it that way, Leah could actually be Ayla's mother. 

In my opinion, this minor fact is no different than Kino's mysterious origins (found as a baby in the Mystic Mountains of 65 million BC).  There just aren't enough to facts to provide any sort of closure or guidance, so pure speculation is the only option with the Ayla-Leah connection.

Then again, perhaps it really was just a nod to the fans of Chrono Trigger...