Author Topic: Cannibalism  (Read 3942 times)

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2006, 03:52:43 am »
Do most real cannibals eat people for religious reasons, or is it just the lack of food in that area? I still hold on to the belief that most cannibals who live in modern day towns and such only do it as a "rebellious trend", such as being a goth, or Eskimo! Jokes, jokes, I meant Inuit.

Not that I liked Pirates Of The Carribeans 2 much, but do you think that "we will eat our fleshy god to release him from his flesh state!" actually happened, or is it more Disney bullshit, because they did get complains from members of that tribe for racism claims.

Matt Shadows

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 03:55:15 am »
I still hold on to the belief that most cannibals who live in modern day towns and such only do it as a "rebellious trend", such as being a Goth, or Eskimo! Jokes, jokes, I meant Inuit.

I haven't eaten anyone yet and don't plan on it.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2006, 04:34:26 am »
No, I'm saying it's a non-conformist ideology, not a cannibalistic one.

Hadriel

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2006, 04:47:29 am »
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The thing I have against the advocacy is that it is based on utilitarian grounds. In my view, utilitarian can lead to a host of other problems, in that it generally degrades the worth of a human - if the body thus is not neccessary to be respected, why then the mind? Where does one quite draw the line? The danger is the loss of respect for humanity, which can lead to degradation of general morals in the living.

I knew I was trying to say something along the lines of that.  Thanks for putting it into words.

Also, have you checked your mail?  I sent some stuff for your perusal.

Romana

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2006, 01:06:50 pm »
Y'know... Cannibalism was the most least likely thing I expected here. And I have the list for proof! Wowzers

....
998. Zeality adopts a kitten
999. Chrono Resurrection... from beyond the grave
1000. Cannibalism

Matt Shadows

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2006, 01:58:46 pm »
You forgot

..1001: ClayAKAMe or Matt Shadows suddenly becoming intelligent and posting in replies worth reading.

V_Translanka

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2006, 04:38:28 pm »
This may be the General Discussion forum, but the thread is clearly marked Cannibalism. There's no need to spam, children...

As for the disease worry about cannibalism...Well, of course...I thought that was a no-brainer...I mean, it's not like we don't check our current stock of foods for disease transmittable through digestion, right?

As for the impact on the value of human life...I'd have thought that it would rise instead of fall. I mean, how much more disrespectful is it to completely waste a whole human body in burial or cremation?

cupn00dles

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2006, 05:47:16 pm »
Chuck Norris practiced cannibalism once... When he ate God

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2006, 08:05:35 pm »
The thing I have against the advocacy is that it is based on utilitarian grounds. In my view, utilitarian can lead to a host of other problems, in that it generally degrades the worth of a human - if the body thus is not neccessary to be respected, why then the mind? Where does one quite draw the line? The danger is the loss of respect for humanity, which can lead to degradation of general morals in the living.

I was itching for somebody to say that. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! (The most famous, is never get involved in a land war in Asia...)

As you probably knew, I'm not a utilitarian. I tend to stay away from that sort of logic as a main form of argument. The utilitarian angle of cannibalism--that it would provide a more efficient way to dispose of the deceased--is only a supporting observation...icing on the cake, if you will. Social conservatives, especially when motivated by their religious beliefs, have fought against almost every advance in technology, medicine, and socially acceptable behavior since religion was invented. I drew a line in my reply by saying that we'll presume no humans are to be killed for their meat. You're telling me that line will not hold, that once we have committed to cannibalism, we will commit to the slaughter of human beings for the purpose of consuming them. That's the slippery slope logical fallacy. And not only is it logically wrong; it is factually inconsistent with how social and technological advances have played out. When medical science achieved the ability to carry out organ transplants, religious conservatives said that we'd soon be killing people to harvest their organs. That never happened. When the United States justice system swept down laws banning interracial marriage, religious conservatives said that beastiality was right around the corner. That never happened. When researches created a new vaccine that has the effect of preventing HPV and therefore most cases of cervical cancer, religious conservatives said it would encourage women to become promiscuous whores. They backed down from that claim, because people had gotten tired of listening to them.

If we legalize cannibalism but not the slaughter of human beings for the purpose of cannibalism, that's where the line will be.

And in the meantime, the main logic in my argument has nothing to do with the utilitarian angle. It has to do with the fact that we're tabooing a civil practice for no good reason. Show me a good reason as to why this liberty of cannibalism is unjustified to the point that it must be illegal, and we'll argue. RD and I have already touched on the most likely topic: the quality of the meat. For one thing, the flesh of people who have died by sickness, trauma, and age is certain to be lower in quality than we may be willing to accept. I don't know; there'd have to be a study. And, likewise, we're so high up the food chain that we've got all sorts of contaminants in our bodies. How much poison is too much? Again, I don't know; there'd have to be a study. And, what RD pointed out in particular, to his credit, is that germs in other animal flesh aren't necessarily a threat to us, but germs in our own flesh are far more likely to be. But I still don't know that that'd ruin the deal; there'd have to be a study. And while you might tell me that the Israelites of ages past "knew better" and developed a stringent dietary code, I'm here to tell you that you're several millennia behind the times, and modern technology has rendered the laws of kashrut so obsolete as to be a joke.

So, in conclusion, "the thing you have against the advocacy" is not that it is utilitarian, because what's really the argument is that the advocacy is on your side, for maintaining this ban in the first place, even though there is no good evidence to show that, absent further inquiry, cannibalism is a Bad Idea.

Hadriel

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2006, 02:50:23 am »
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For one thing, the flesh of people who have died by sickness, trauma, and age is certain to be lower in quality than we may be willing to accept.

You just answered your own questions, largely.  If it's illegal to kill humans for meat, old and sick flesh is the only kind available from humans.  Further, most humans have for one reason or another evolved an instinct that repels them away from gore, especially gore inflicted upon fellow humans.  The only acceptable flesh would be newly dead people, which would mean mutilating the human's body in order to get the meat; even disregarding age and sickness, at the stage of death it could conceivably be harvested the corpse would have all the physical characteristics of a normal person.  The vast majority of people are not going to want a job that involves the mutilation of human corpses.  Even supposing it were legalized, I doubt that you could find enough people to actually run such an industry, even taking mechanization into account; there has to be a staff of real people to oversee operations and perform maintenance.  To find a staff of such individuals would require digging into the bottom of the barrel of the mentally ill, where questions of competence at the job would arise anyway.

The difference between the social, cultural and technological advances you mentioned and the legalization of cannibalism as an industry arise not from any tired, stereotypical argument about how everyone who doesn't suck Nancy Pelosi's cock is an evil right wing hypocrite, but from the fact that there is no fucking way to make it work.

I'm now going to turn this around; instead of me having to defend the status quo, I'm going to ask what measurable benefits can be gained from changing it.  OK, so a few more people get to eat.  So what?  The fact is that an overwhelming percentage of the population views it as disgusting and an abomination for reasons that are deep-seated in evolutionary psychology, and they're not going to take part in cannibalism when there is any other option whatsoever.  Support in vitro meat if you feel like we've inflicted enough pain on animals; I think it'd be pretty kickass myself.  But this is really stretching it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 02:58:29 am by Hadriel »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2006, 03:41:48 am »
You just answered your own questions, largely.  If it's illegal to kill humans for meat, old and sick flesh is the only kind available from humans.

Yes, but I don't know--and neither do you--whether that meat would be inedible or otherwise harmful. We'd need to study that. Ignorance for its own sake is rarely a good reason to ban anything.

Further, most humans have for one reason or another evolved an instinct that repels them away from gore, especially gore inflicted upon fellow humans. ... The vast majority of people are not going to want a job that involves the mutilation of human corpses.

That's an emotion-based logical fallacy. Many professionals work in professions that ordinary people tend to find repulsive, from butchers to coroners. We don't need the "vast majority" of people to go harvest their own meat. We just need enough trained workers to get that stuff prepped and packaged.

To find a staff of such individuals would require digging into the bottom of the barrel of the mentally ill, where questions of competence at the job would arise anyway.

A lie by ignorance. You're letting your own opinion determine your perception of the facts.

I'm now going to turn this around; instead of me having to defend the status quo, I'm going to ask what measurable benefits can be gained from changing it.

I don't think there's any spectacular reason to go ahead with cannibalism. But the logical burden of proof isn't on my shoulders; it's on yours. You have to justify why we maintain the ban on this practice. Sure, I don't see much point in cannibalism...but I also don't see much point in all manner of things that many other people enjoy, from NFL football to The Gap. If I wanted to ban those things, I'd have to prove my case...just as you have to justify the ban on cannibalism. It's your onus.

OK, so a few more people get to eat.  So what?  The fact is that an overwhelming percentage of the population views it as disgusting and an abomination for reasons that are deep-seated in evolutionary psychology, and they're not going to take part in cannibalism when there is any other option whatsoever.

I know that's how our culture feels now...but we don't own a monopoly on the customs and convictions of future societies. What was barbaric yesterday is that whose opposite is barbaric today, and vice versa. Absent a strong physical reason to ban cannibalism in this limited scope, it will always be a potential candidate for future cultural adoption.

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2006, 04:27:30 am »
Lord J, kudos to you for that quote (the Princess Bride one). And truth is... I didn't think through my argument well. I had an idea, but it didn't go beyond the feeling. Had I actually figured through it logically, I would have made a far longer post. You're right that the slippery slope argument isn't valid. It assumes too much based on extrapolation into the future. Often things go contrary to expectation, anyway. Hadriel argued the case far better than did I, so I'll defer more to him.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2006, 05:09:12 am »
You're getting very good at diplomatically bowing out of a discussion whenever I get feisty. I don't know whether to smirk or weep. But my argument has run its course. I think I'd just be repeating myself if I kept on at this rate. And cannibalism isn't even an issue that I care about. I just appreciate the opportunity to challenge people's borders of what is normal, and why they believe that.

Hadriel

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2006, 09:12:10 am »
I'd have to contest that I've done anything remotely resembling a good job debating my case here.  From a strictly logical perspective, this is doubtlessly the most house-of-cards argument I've ever constructed on this board.  But this doesn't change the fact that I won't take part in it.  Supposing my pets and I were stranded on a deserted island, I'd starve to death before eating them; the extra weight I'm trying to lose right now would constitute an aid for once.  I appreciate attempts to be the devil's advocate and challenge people's skills at justifying themselves, but as a general rule, I don't make serious arguments whose tenets I wouldn't be willing to back up personally.  I realistically can't know what I would or wouldn't resort to in a given situation that I haven't experienced, but I know where my own moral preferences lie.

V_Translanka

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Re: Cannibalism
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2006, 04:00:22 pm »
1) People don't just die from age & sickness...Unless you're living in some fantasy world that I'm unaware of...Is it Canada? Because I hear Canada kicks ass.

2) If the organs of people who die from age & sickness are good enough to be transplanted into others, who's to say that their meat wouldn't be good enough to be transplanted into others stomachs? I agree there'd obviously have to be some studies into this though.

3) When you digest food, your body takes the cells from the food you eat and changes them into your own cells (protein cells and the like), correct? The closer the cells you eat are to the cells your body is trying to turn them into, the easier the process, right? Mammal cells would transfer more easily to more mammal cells than fish or amphibian, yeah? That's why I always figured that eating people would be good.

4) Like stated, just because you would find a job disgusting, that doesn't mean that everyone else would...I mean, heck, isn't that what we've got the Mexicans for (In the USA anyways...:lol: )? Jobs, yet another socio-ecological problem that cannibalism would solve!

5) Yeay, I'm glad this topic has gotten off so well...Expect the next topic to be...hmm...Prostitution? Mutual Masturbation? Procrastination? Aw, nartz, now I'm just rhyming...>_>