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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS
« on: April 15, 2022, 09:25:08 am »
So Guile being Magus has been an ongoing topic for a long time. The brief rundown is that in the original game, Guile was supposed to represent Magil from Radical Dreamers (who was indeed Magus). However due to the scope Chrono Cross was going for, the team had difficulty getting it to fit and made Guile as his own ambiguous character. This however seemed to have possibly changed with the DS release of the Chrono Trigger and the Dream Devourer ending. In this ending, Magus confronts the Dream Devourer (which is actually the Time Devourer we find in Cross in the beginning stages of its evolution), and Schala says to him that power alone cannot save her, and he would never save her as he is now. Magus then decides that if all the power he was seeking was for nothing, he would wipe out his own identity in hopes that he would become someone who would tread a different path and potentially find a way to save her, should any part of his former self remain.
He wakes in the forest, confused and ignorant of his former self. He says that he feels there is something he must do and something he must find, and will do whatever it takes to remember what it was. The idea behind this, is that he becomes Guile in CC who is wondering the world searching for enigma. If he is in your party when you approach the Frozen Flame, he even says something along the lines of, "Is this what I've been searching for? No!! I am no such thing... what good is it to have such dark power??"
Now we enter Chrono Cross Radical Dreamers Edition. While there is nothing new within the game itself, there is an extra monologue unlocked in the post credits once you have completed BOTH CC and RD. This is still open to interpretation, but it is most likely referring to Guile and expanding on the retcon that was started in the DS port of CT. Here is my interpretation and why I believe this to be the case...
"The time was near - the final battle awaited.
There, alone in the shadows, the man lingered.
HIs partners, a young man and a young woman,
had already made their preparations, and were
waiting for him at the place they had agreed upon."
This seems like a reference to Opassa Beach at the end of CC. This would be the meeting place for the final battle, and Serge/Kid would be the young man and woman.
"Their foe was a fearsome opponent indeed.
Would the three of them be able to defeat him?
There was only one way to find out.
All the better - what fun is a battle
whose outcome is all but certain."
The fearsome opponent would be the Time Devourer itself. The only thing that might be argued against this is emphasis on the word "he" and "him", instead of using the word "it" since TD is an evolution of Lavos (which is an a sexual being). However mislabeling such beings as "him" or "her" is a common thing for people to do, and not really enough to outright disprove anything. One theory is that "him" might be referring to Lynx in RD, but there are other factors that more point toward Guile over Magil that we will get into, the above point being one as there was no meeting place for a final battle or preparing to be made in RD.
"The man reached a hand to his mask-
silver and unembellished,
save for a few subtle details."
The color of the mask goes against Guile and Magil as both wear gold masks, and is likely an oversight IMO.
"It had been many long years
since he last revealed his face.
Did he wear the mask to hide himself from others?
Or did he wear it to hide from himself?
Enough time had passed that
not even he was sure anymore."
This is a direct reference to both Magil and Guile. Hiding from others would be Magil, who was very aware of his purpose and that (in RD) Kid is actually Schala. Hiding from himself is more of a reference to Guile not wanting to remember who he was, and his memory wipe. This can work both ways.
"But it didn't matter now.
The end was coming - an end to everything.
Soon, his long days of wandering would be over.
So too would the girl's ill-fated, fleeting existence."
Now while the above point works for both, this points more toward Guile. The ill fated girl is most likely a reference to Schala's fleeting existence within the Time Devourer. This would end in the form of her being liberated from the Chrono Cross. His long days of wandering is again, a reference to Guile's character. He was searching and wandering in search of something...did not know what, but he knew he needed to find something (as confirmed by the above quote when he approached the Frozen Flame). There are several references to Guile being a wander in search of "enigma" as well.
"How many years had passed?
How many centuries?
How much love and prayer,
how much hatred and rancor,
how much despair and resignation,
had slowly and silently fallen over him,
piling up like snow?"
This is a reference to Magus in general.
"On that fated day, long, long ago...
everything that he was had vanished...
Faded away into nothingness...
without so much as a whimper...
There was nothing he could have done to stop it...
But one memory stayed with him,
even after everything else fell away.
One unforgettable image...
That kingdom of winds, forever lost..."
There was nothing he could have done to stop it, speaks to when he failed to save Schala from the Dream Devourer. "everything he was" vanishing is likely a reference to when he wiped his memory. The unforgettable image is Schala's smile and the reason he searches for "something". The Kingdom of Winds is a reference to Zeal itself, which could also interpret that this entire part is referring to the fall of Zeal, but the rest does not add up as well to that as it does for Guile. For example, Magus was not searching for Schala in the start of CT as he thought she was dead. He also did not know he could willingly time travel at the time either. This is why he was more fixated on revenge and summoning Lavos to kill it, rather than finding Schala.
"Those blessed days in a paradise above the clouds...
And that face... Her gentle, bitter-sweet smile...
Perhaps his time behind the mask
was coming to an end..."
Reference to his days with Schala and the end of his quest.
"His icy gaze seemed to thaw for a moment-
and then he sprang to action.
The moonlight flashed across the mask's surface.
His silvery hair flowed behind him,
reaching out like the tail of a coment.
"The time has come, o fated star-
the king has returned."
And with that... he vanished into the darkness."
The moonlight reference points that this was his thoughts from the night before (very early morning most likely) actually going to Opassa Beach off screen, and is further supported by the fact that above he speaks of preparation and going to the meeting place (opassa beach) suggesting he is not physically there yet. Vanishing into darkness was a trademark of Magil, but given all the other evidence pointing to Guile instead, it could also just be a tribute to the character Guile was originally supposed to represent as well. This could also be a reference to entering the Darkness Beyond Time as well.
"Though a life may end, a story lives on.
Not forever, perhaps, but...
What's eternity...
... compared to this moment in time?
fin."
A life ending could be Kid if he thinks she will merge with Schala, being her daughter clone and all.
...
So a few side notes to bring up...as we can see Guile would have his memories back in this scenario. There is no outright confirmation that this happened, but it is strongly implied which is the only way to do it without messing with the original script of CC. So when could this have happened? A user by the name of Prince Janus came up with a good one that I subscribe to. Basically when he approached the Frozen Flame, he has a revelation from its influence and regains his memories. He keeps his thought to himself, as it serves no purpose to tell Serge and Kid what he came to realize. Magus was pretty introverted to begin with, so it fits the character too.
So when you look at all this, there is a much stronger argument to say this is an expansion of the original CT retcon than a reference to Magil from RD. Someone did bring up another possibility, that due to the silver mask we may be seeing yet another version of Magus in yet another timeline, but such a monologue serves no purpose unless they are teasing a new game, which I have my doubts about. It is for this reason I believe it must either refer to Magil or Guile, and for the reasons above I feel Guile fits the bill. However a hint at a new game is indeed totally possible, so I respect the opinion of anyone that feels that way. Myself personally however, I feel like I will cross that bridge if/when that is announced and draw my conclusions based on the data and lore we already have.
Thoughts?
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=13731.msg234624#msg234624 for those that want to read the original un-noted version of the new content.
He wakes in the forest, confused and ignorant of his former self. He says that he feels there is something he must do and something he must find, and will do whatever it takes to remember what it was. The idea behind this, is that he becomes Guile in CC who is wondering the world searching for enigma. If he is in your party when you approach the Frozen Flame, he even says something along the lines of, "Is this what I've been searching for? No!! I am no such thing... what good is it to have such dark power??"
Now we enter Chrono Cross Radical Dreamers Edition. While there is nothing new within the game itself, there is an extra monologue unlocked in the post credits once you have completed BOTH CC and RD. This is still open to interpretation, but it is most likely referring to Guile and expanding on the retcon that was started in the DS port of CT. Here is my interpretation and why I believe this to be the case...
"The time was near - the final battle awaited.
There, alone in the shadows, the man lingered.
HIs partners, a young man and a young woman,
had already made their preparations, and were
waiting for him at the place they had agreed upon."
This seems like a reference to Opassa Beach at the end of CC. This would be the meeting place for the final battle, and Serge/Kid would be the young man and woman.
"Their foe was a fearsome opponent indeed.
Would the three of them be able to defeat him?
There was only one way to find out.
All the better - what fun is a battle
whose outcome is all but certain."
The fearsome opponent would be the Time Devourer itself. The only thing that might be argued against this is emphasis on the word "he" and "him", instead of using the word "it" since TD is an evolution of Lavos (which is an a sexual being). However mislabeling such beings as "him" or "her" is a common thing for people to do, and not really enough to outright disprove anything. One theory is that "him" might be referring to Lynx in RD, but there are other factors that more point toward Guile over Magil that we will get into, the above point being one as there was no meeting place for a final battle or preparing to be made in RD.
"The man reached a hand to his mask-
silver and unembellished,
save for a few subtle details."
The color of the mask goes against Guile and Magil as both wear gold masks, and is likely an oversight IMO.
"It had been many long years
since he last revealed his face.
Did he wear the mask to hide himself from others?
Or did he wear it to hide from himself?
Enough time had passed that
not even he was sure anymore."
This is a direct reference to both Magil and Guile. Hiding from others would be Magil, who was very aware of his purpose and that (in RD) Kid is actually Schala. Hiding from himself is more of a reference to Guile not wanting to remember who he was, and his memory wipe. This can work both ways.
"But it didn't matter now.
The end was coming - an end to everything.
Soon, his long days of wandering would be over.
So too would the girl's ill-fated, fleeting existence."
Now while the above point works for both, this points more toward Guile. The ill fated girl is most likely a reference to Schala's fleeting existence within the Time Devourer. This would end in the form of her being liberated from the Chrono Cross. His long days of wandering is again, a reference to Guile's character. He was searching and wandering in search of something...did not know what, but he knew he needed to find something (as confirmed by the above quote when he approached the Frozen Flame). There are several references to Guile being a wander in search of "enigma" as well.
"How many years had passed?
How many centuries?
How much love and prayer,
how much hatred and rancor,
how much despair and resignation,
had slowly and silently fallen over him,
piling up like snow?"
This is a reference to Magus in general.
"On that fated day, long, long ago...
everything that he was had vanished...
Faded away into nothingness...
without so much as a whimper...
There was nothing he could have done to stop it...
But one memory stayed with him,
even after everything else fell away.
One unforgettable image...
That kingdom of winds, forever lost..."
There was nothing he could have done to stop it, speaks to when he failed to save Schala from the Dream Devourer. "everything he was" vanishing is likely a reference to when he wiped his memory. The unforgettable image is Schala's smile and the reason he searches for "something". The Kingdom of Winds is a reference to Zeal itself, which could also interpret that this entire part is referring to the fall of Zeal, but the rest does not add up as well to that as it does for Guile. For example, Magus was not searching for Schala in the start of CT as he thought she was dead. He also did not know he could willingly time travel at the time either. This is why he was more fixated on revenge and summoning Lavos to kill it, rather than finding Schala.
"Those blessed days in a paradise above the clouds...
And that face... Her gentle, bitter-sweet smile...
Perhaps his time behind the mask
was coming to an end..."
Reference to his days with Schala and the end of his quest.
"His icy gaze seemed to thaw for a moment-
and then he sprang to action.
The moonlight flashed across the mask's surface.
His silvery hair flowed behind him,
reaching out like the tail of a coment.
"The time has come, o fated star-
the king has returned."
And with that... he vanished into the darkness."
The moonlight reference points that this was his thoughts from the night before (very early morning most likely) actually going to Opassa Beach off screen, and is further supported by the fact that above he speaks of preparation and going to the meeting place (opassa beach) suggesting he is not physically there yet. Vanishing into darkness was a trademark of Magil, but given all the other evidence pointing to Guile instead, it could also just be a tribute to the character Guile was originally supposed to represent as well. This could also be a reference to entering the Darkness Beyond Time as well.
"Though a life may end, a story lives on.
Not forever, perhaps, but...
What's eternity...
... compared to this moment in time?
fin."
A life ending could be Kid if he thinks she will merge with Schala, being her daughter clone and all.
...
So a few side notes to bring up...as we can see Guile would have his memories back in this scenario. There is no outright confirmation that this happened, but it is strongly implied which is the only way to do it without messing with the original script of CC. So when could this have happened? A user by the name of Prince Janus came up with a good one that I subscribe to. Basically when he approached the Frozen Flame, he has a revelation from its influence and regains his memories. He keeps his thought to himself, as it serves no purpose to tell Serge and Kid what he came to realize. Magus was pretty introverted to begin with, so it fits the character too.
So when you look at all this, there is a much stronger argument to say this is an expansion of the original CT retcon than a reference to Magil from RD. Someone did bring up another possibility, that due to the silver mask we may be seeing yet another version of Magus in yet another timeline, but such a monologue serves no purpose unless they are teasing a new game, which I have my doubts about. It is for this reason I believe it must either refer to Magil or Guile, and for the reasons above I feel Guile fits the bill. However a hint at a new game is indeed totally possible, so I respect the opinion of anyone that feels that way. Myself personally however, I feel like I will cross that bridge if/when that is announced and draw my conclusions based on the data and lore we already have.
Thoughts?
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=13731.msg234624#msg234624 for those that want to read the original un-noted version of the new content.
2
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Each version of Chrono Trigger represents its own dimension (theory)
« on: August 18, 2020, 06:52:19 pm »
So I had a discussion about the Dimensional Vortex with someone in Discord recently, and I came to a rather cool revelation for a new theory. As we know, there are multiple dimensions in the CT multiverse that follow their own sequence of events based on possibilities. It is basically the many worlds theory where every possible outcome has its own reality. Some are very similar, like Chrono Cross and Radical Dreamers. Others are very different, like the Dinopolis timeline. But they are all following their own sequence of events from the beginning of time.
Before we get into this, I am not claiming several splits to a single timeline. Inter-dimensional travel is still possible in the DS version of Chrono Trigger and even in Chrono Cross as seen by Dinopolis being in the Time Crash incident. The only timeline that we know of that splits off from a singular dimension is Home World in Chrono Cross, which split from another world. The Chrono Cross timeline (and I am stealing this analogy) is basically a fork where one single dimension splits into two separate timelines at a certain point. All other known timelines are their own dimensions that follow events either very closely, or very differently based on what alternate possibility is taking place. This is confirmed by Magus within the Dimensional Vortex of CT DS.
Now to the theory at hand...
Basically there are three different versions of CT. The SNES version, the Playstation version, and the DS version. Yes I know there is a mobile and steam version as well, but they are basically just ports of the DS version with no difference between them outside of how they perform. So for this theory, I will only be refering to the three.
In this theory, SNES version of CT is its own timeline outside of Chrono Cross. You play through the game, the end. No Fall of Guardia, no disappearance of the masamune, and no FATE creating El Nido. This makes sense because there is nothing leading into Cross, as Cross was not being planned at the time. But there is still that one story arc that was left unresolved between Schala and Magus that led to Cross being made in the first place...
And Kato addressed that with the next entry in the SNES timeline. Radical Dreamers would be the true direct follow up to this version of CT (sorry Lucca, you don't get off that easy). Here Schala IS Kid reincarnated, rather than just being a "daughter clone". She does not become the Time Devourer, but her story does continue. The Radical Dreamers timeline is confirmed to exist in Cross itself, and seeing how RD was eventually formed into a CT follow up, this makes sense as there are no references that tie the SNES version of CT to CC found within the game itself. As a bonus, if you look at "out of world evidence" RD was released only in Japan via an add on service to the SNES. So essentially the SNES timeline is actually contained on the SNES itself. Probably a coincidence, but it is still a neat bit to point out.
Then we have the Playstation timeline, where Chrono Cross takes place. The PS version of CT, unlike the SNES version, actually had content added to the game that ties it to Cross. In this timeline, the Fall of Guardia takes place via Dalton's revenge, which lead to the disappearance of the Masamune, and to Porre being a military nation. FATE creates El Nido after the Time Crash and the events of Chrono Cross take place leading to a split in the PS timeline we know as Home World and Another World. The where abouts of Crono and Marle are unknown in this timeline as well, outside of speculation. As an added bonus, both games are tied to the Playstation console.
Now we have the DS version, which is a little more complicated. Outside of a more accurate translation, the battle arena, and the ability to peak into the Dinopolis Timeline via the Lost Sanctum...it is basically the exact same timeline as the Playstation Timeline. The mentioned additional content has no effect on that.
There is one bit however, that does create a DS timeline, that is left wide open with no known follow up. AFTER you kill Lavos and you are greeted with the ending scenes from the PS version, something happens. A Dimensional Vortext opens up in ANOTHER TIMELINE right before Crono would have fought and killed Lavos. The Dimensional Vortex is confirmed to be canon, but requires you to beat the game and reload your save from just before that. It makes sense that killing Lavos would trigger such an event in another dimension, as this would lead our heros to find the Dream Devourer. Here they encounter Dalton and learn of his plan. They also run into Magus from the Playstation timeline, as he states that he comes from a future where he and the group already killed Lavos. This implies that he is from the timeline where you just killed Lavos and beat the game and that the party you are controlling is from an alternate timeline where a Dimensional Vortex opens, triggered by the fall of Lavos. He also states that there are as many worlds as there are potentialities, confirming the many worlds theory.
You see him fight and fail, then it is revealed that this Magus is sent back to his timeline, where he erases his memory to POTENTIALLY become Guile in Chrono Cross. The party you controlled however is sent back to the other timeline, from which they entered the Dimensional Vortex. They now have knowledge of the Dream Devourer in this timeline, as well as Dalton's plan to attack Guardia. What they do with said info is anyone's guess however, as the DS timeline (only the part pertaining to the Dimensional Vortex) is left wide open with no follow up.
So what does all of this mean exactly?
Well I think that this was Kato making a statement. He knows there will likely never be a Chrono 3...but that does not mean the IP is dead. With the Dimensional Vortex, every relevant fanfic, fangame (Example Crimson Echos and Flames of Eternity), etc is made canon to their own Dimensional Timeline that follow their own sequence of events in the Chrono Multiverse. Basically SE did not greenlight him to make a sequel in his vision after Cross. But the Chrono franchise continues to live through the minds and hearts of the fans. There are as many worlds as there are potentialities, and we have been entrusted by the man himself to keep these worlds alive.
Before we get into this, I am not claiming several splits to a single timeline. Inter-dimensional travel is still possible in the DS version of Chrono Trigger and even in Chrono Cross as seen by Dinopolis being in the Time Crash incident. The only timeline that we know of that splits off from a singular dimension is Home World in Chrono Cross, which split from another world. The Chrono Cross timeline (and I am stealing this analogy) is basically a fork where one single dimension splits into two separate timelines at a certain point. All other known timelines are their own dimensions that follow events either very closely, or very differently based on what alternate possibility is taking place. This is confirmed by Magus within the Dimensional Vortex of CT DS.
Now to the theory at hand...
Basically there are three different versions of CT. The SNES version, the Playstation version, and the DS version. Yes I know there is a mobile and steam version as well, but they are basically just ports of the DS version with no difference between them outside of how they perform. So for this theory, I will only be refering to the three.
In this theory, SNES version of CT is its own timeline outside of Chrono Cross. You play through the game, the end. No Fall of Guardia, no disappearance of the masamune, and no FATE creating El Nido. This makes sense because there is nothing leading into Cross, as Cross was not being planned at the time. But there is still that one story arc that was left unresolved between Schala and Magus that led to Cross being made in the first place...
And Kato addressed that with the next entry in the SNES timeline. Radical Dreamers would be the true direct follow up to this version of CT (sorry Lucca, you don't get off that easy). Here Schala IS Kid reincarnated, rather than just being a "daughter clone". She does not become the Time Devourer, but her story does continue. The Radical Dreamers timeline is confirmed to exist in Cross itself, and seeing how RD was eventually formed into a CT follow up, this makes sense as there are no references that tie the SNES version of CT to CC found within the game itself. As a bonus, if you look at "out of world evidence" RD was released only in Japan via an add on service to the SNES. So essentially the SNES timeline is actually contained on the SNES itself. Probably a coincidence, but it is still a neat bit to point out.
Then we have the Playstation timeline, where Chrono Cross takes place. The PS version of CT, unlike the SNES version, actually had content added to the game that ties it to Cross. In this timeline, the Fall of Guardia takes place via Dalton's revenge, which lead to the disappearance of the Masamune, and to Porre being a military nation. FATE creates El Nido after the Time Crash and the events of Chrono Cross take place leading to a split in the PS timeline we know as Home World and Another World. The where abouts of Crono and Marle are unknown in this timeline as well, outside of speculation. As an added bonus, both games are tied to the Playstation console.
Now we have the DS version, which is a little more complicated. Outside of a more accurate translation, the battle arena, and the ability to peak into the Dinopolis Timeline via the Lost Sanctum...it is basically the exact same timeline as the Playstation Timeline. The mentioned additional content has no effect on that.
There is one bit however, that does create a DS timeline, that is left wide open with no known follow up. AFTER you kill Lavos and you are greeted with the ending scenes from the PS version, something happens. A Dimensional Vortext opens up in ANOTHER TIMELINE right before Crono would have fought and killed Lavos. The Dimensional Vortex is confirmed to be canon, but requires you to beat the game and reload your save from just before that. It makes sense that killing Lavos would trigger such an event in another dimension, as this would lead our heros to find the Dream Devourer. Here they encounter Dalton and learn of his plan. They also run into Magus from the Playstation timeline, as he states that he comes from a future where he and the group already killed Lavos. This implies that he is from the timeline where you just killed Lavos and beat the game and that the party you are controlling is from an alternate timeline where a Dimensional Vortex opens, triggered by the fall of Lavos. He also states that there are as many worlds as there are potentialities, confirming the many worlds theory.
You see him fight and fail, then it is revealed that this Magus is sent back to his timeline, where he erases his memory to POTENTIALLY become Guile in Chrono Cross. The party you controlled however is sent back to the other timeline, from which they entered the Dimensional Vortex. They now have knowledge of the Dream Devourer in this timeline, as well as Dalton's plan to attack Guardia. What they do with said info is anyone's guess however, as the DS timeline (only the part pertaining to the Dimensional Vortex) is left wide open with no follow up.
So what does all of this mean exactly?
Well I think that this was Kato making a statement. He knows there will likely never be a Chrono 3...but that does not mean the IP is dead. With the Dimensional Vortex, every relevant fanfic, fangame (Example Crimson Echos and Flames of Eternity), etc is made canon to their own Dimensional Timeline that follow their own sequence of events in the Chrono Multiverse. Basically SE did not greenlight him to make a sequel in his vision after Cross. But the Chrono franchise continues to live through the minds and hearts of the fans. There are as many worlds as there are potentialities, and we have been entrusted by the man himself to keep these worlds alive.
3
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?
« on: August 06, 2020, 04:14:16 am »
Here we go again bouncing around new theories involving the trio from 1000 AD. But with this one, I decided to think outside the box. I was surprised at how likely this turned out to be, and the amount of evidence that supports it as a very valid possibility.
So as we know, Dalton lead a Porre uprising to destroy Guardia as an act of revenge against our heros. What we don't know is the exact fate of the cast in Another World after the fall. I still stand by them being dead in Home world due to the ghosts only appearing in Home World/Belthesar's illusion, the destroyed future shown in the Dead Sea, and Kid's absence. Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place. In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her). This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.
But Another World is still a mystery. Lucca's letter implies that Crono and Marle survived the Fall of Guardia, but anything beyond that is speculation. Well I have a new theory that suggests that they may be working with Porre at this point, to an extent. Lets look at the evidence...
First we have to look at a pretty small, but very important fact. Lucca has ties to the Porre Navy at the time of Lynx coming for her. This is supported by her friendship with Luccia and the receipt for received goods from the Navy found in her home. To me, this suggests that Dalton has already been taken out. For one, Lucca would never help Dalton. One might argue that it was so that he would spare the orphanage after the Fall, but Lucca cooperating with him is just unlikely on so many levels. Dalton's actions were an act of revenge, it was personal. If it were up to him, he would kill her. At best he would keep her prisoner and force her to cooperate or die. Furthermore I find it likely that her being a prisoner of War would have been reflected in the letter, but it seemed she was worried for what might come for her and her friends rather than a threat that is already present. From what I can tell there was no sign of her ever being forced either, and seemed to be working on her own.
Another thing to take note of is that I believe that Dalton would have gone to El Nido with the Navy in search of the Frozen Flame after Lynx went rouge. This was a very powerful artifact that would make the desires of anyone who touched it a reality. As seen in Chrono Trigger, he wanted world domination. The Frozen Flame could have given him that, so do you really think he would have entrusted someone else to bring it to him? Nah, I think he would have been there in person. Especially with Lynx going rouge, as his sudden silence would surely be a red flag and have been more than enough reason for Dalton to show up and investigate. Norris in Another World returned to Porre with this knowledge as well, and his duty was to his country. He would have no reason to hide Lynx's betrayal and the body swap from Dalton if he was still in charge. Though it could be argued the news could not be delivered in time for him to act, I still can't see him just sitting in Porre during Lynx's initial silence prior to Serge returning in Lynx's body in the first place. As I said, he would want to be near so that he himself would be the one to take hold of the Flame.
So what I believe may have happened in this theory is that Crono, Marle, and Lucca manage to retaliate against Dalton, perhaps with a resistance force, and take him out. Dalton clearly was not around in Cross with Lucca working with Porre and his absence in the search for an artifact that his character would insist on being present for. Crono taking him out makes the most sense, as they already managed to fell his forces once in the ocean palace to reach the Queen and Lavos. Then again on the Blackbird, albeit with Crono's absence at the time (escaping as prisoners I might add). The group clearly had the most experience in dealing with the guy and his antics, more so than anyone else in that period of time.
Fast forward to 1999 AD on the Day of Lavos, and Truce is confirmed to still be around. Even if the kingdom was gone, the town that was burned to the ground was rebuilt. It is possible that Guardia was in the process of rebuilding during Cross, but it is more likely that Porre remained the current superpower. With Dalton gone, Crono and Marle would have no reason to go against Porre and likely came to an agreement to rebuild Truce as a vassel state with whoever took his place (since Porre was still nigh untouchable in Cross). Marle was not exactly queen material, but she did care for her people. With their true enemy defeated, I could see her working with Porre for the greater good in exchange for Truce being restored for the people of Guardia that survived the attack. This would make Lucca's ties with Porre make more sense. Marle would likely govern Truce under Porre's rule and Crono, being the capable warrior he was, may very well have joined their army. If this were the case, this could explain why Crono and Marle never came to Lucca's aid when Lynx took her. Lynx had infiltrated Porre and aquired a vast amount of influence leading up to Cross. Crono surely wanted to find her, but the very man who took her was in a position to misguide him through manipulation of information. Not that Lynx was afraid of Crono, but had he been figured out his cover would have been blown.
Porre itself was not a bad nation afterall, Dalton was just an evil guy. With evidence supporting him being out of the picture and no real evidence supporting that Porre was evil as a nation, this seems like a very possible scenario. Dalton could have even faced mutiny by soldiers like Norris, who prove that not all of them were bad. TBH the only thing that makes Porre look evil without Dalton is Lynx (who was a double agent of FATE) and a few asshat soldiers that exist in any army. The rest were just following orders from someone who had no idea what was really going on once Lynx left. And yes I know that Porre was in search of the Flame for power, but this was set in motion by Lynx. He used Porre just as much as the Dragoons, who arguably wanted it for the same thing. I don't see the clashing nations as Porre being evil so much as a conflict of ideals, and Porre just happens to be the current superpower.
So lets take a quick recap. The hard evidence that supports this is Lucca's letter, Crono and Marle's likely survival (also supported by how Doan was brought to 1000 AD at the end of Trigger which suggest Crono and Marle made a child at some point), Dalton's appearent absence, Truce existing in 1999 AD, and Lucca's apparently peaceful ties to the Porre Navy. The other stuff is mainly speculation based on the ambiguous nature of how the original crew was handled, as well as Dalton himself.
The evidence that goes against it...is nothing really. One could argue that the evidence outside of Lucca having connections to Porre and her letter suggesting Crono and Marle survived is open to interpretation as well. But IMO all of it put together with those pieces of evidence make it a very likely (while not definite) scenario.
So how about it, what do you think of this theory? Are there any problems? How likely do you find it?
One of the good things about the ambiguous nature of Cross is the possibilities it offers, and I look forward to hearing feedback based on this. And a shoutout to Acacia Sgt, who in another thread cleared a few things up for me that made me think a bit more out of the box.
So as we know, Dalton lead a Porre uprising to destroy Guardia as an act of revenge against our heros. What we don't know is the exact fate of the cast in Another World after the fall. I still stand by them being dead in Home world due to the ghosts only appearing in Home World/Belthesar's illusion, the destroyed future shown in the Dead Sea, and Kid's absence. Basically the final battle take place in 1999 AD against Lavos, long after the split takes place. In home world our heros fail and meet their end, which would explain why Kid is missing from Home World as Lavos would have never died and Schala would likely not have cloned herself as a result (and even of she did, Lucca would have never found her). This also explains why the ghosts blame Serge for the future coming back, as his survival created the reality they failed in.
But Another World is still a mystery. Lucca's letter implies that Crono and Marle survived the Fall of Guardia, but anything beyond that is speculation. Well I have a new theory that suggests that they may be working with Porre at this point, to an extent. Lets look at the evidence...
First we have to look at a pretty small, but very important fact. Lucca has ties to the Porre Navy at the time of Lynx coming for her. This is supported by her friendship with Luccia and the receipt for received goods from the Navy found in her home. To me, this suggests that Dalton has already been taken out. For one, Lucca would never help Dalton. One might argue that it was so that he would spare the orphanage after the Fall, but Lucca cooperating with him is just unlikely on so many levels. Dalton's actions were an act of revenge, it was personal. If it were up to him, he would kill her. At best he would keep her prisoner and force her to cooperate or die. Furthermore I find it likely that her being a prisoner of War would have been reflected in the letter, but it seemed she was worried for what might come for her and her friends rather than a threat that is already present. From what I can tell there was no sign of her ever being forced either, and seemed to be working on her own.
Another thing to take note of is that I believe that Dalton would have gone to El Nido with the Navy in search of the Frozen Flame after Lynx went rouge. This was a very powerful artifact that would make the desires of anyone who touched it a reality. As seen in Chrono Trigger, he wanted world domination. The Frozen Flame could have given him that, so do you really think he would have entrusted someone else to bring it to him? Nah, I think he would have been there in person. Especially with Lynx going rouge, as his sudden silence would surely be a red flag and have been more than enough reason for Dalton to show up and investigate. Norris in Another World returned to Porre with this knowledge as well, and his duty was to his country. He would have no reason to hide Lynx's betrayal and the body swap from Dalton if he was still in charge. Though it could be argued the news could not be delivered in time for him to act, I still can't see him just sitting in Porre during Lynx's initial silence prior to Serge returning in Lynx's body in the first place. As I said, he would want to be near so that he himself would be the one to take hold of the Flame.
So what I believe may have happened in this theory is that Crono, Marle, and Lucca manage to retaliate against Dalton, perhaps with a resistance force, and take him out. Dalton clearly was not around in Cross with Lucca working with Porre and his absence in the search for an artifact that his character would insist on being present for. Crono taking him out makes the most sense, as they already managed to fell his forces once in the ocean palace to reach the Queen and Lavos. Then again on the Blackbird, albeit with Crono's absence at the time (escaping as prisoners I might add). The group clearly had the most experience in dealing with the guy and his antics, more so than anyone else in that period of time.
Fast forward to 1999 AD on the Day of Lavos, and Truce is confirmed to still be around. Even if the kingdom was gone, the town that was burned to the ground was rebuilt. It is possible that Guardia was in the process of rebuilding during Cross, but it is more likely that Porre remained the current superpower. With Dalton gone, Crono and Marle would have no reason to go against Porre and likely came to an agreement to rebuild Truce as a vassel state with whoever took his place (since Porre was still nigh untouchable in Cross). Marle was not exactly queen material, but she did care for her people. With their true enemy defeated, I could see her working with Porre for the greater good in exchange for Truce being restored for the people of Guardia that survived the attack. This would make Lucca's ties with Porre make more sense. Marle would likely govern Truce under Porre's rule and Crono, being the capable warrior he was, may very well have joined their army. If this were the case, this could explain why Crono and Marle never came to Lucca's aid when Lynx took her. Lynx had infiltrated Porre and aquired a vast amount of influence leading up to Cross. Crono surely wanted to find her, but the very man who took her was in a position to misguide him through manipulation of information. Not that Lynx was afraid of Crono, but had he been figured out his cover would have been blown.
Porre itself was not a bad nation afterall, Dalton was just an evil guy. With evidence supporting him being out of the picture and no real evidence supporting that Porre was evil as a nation, this seems like a very possible scenario. Dalton could have even faced mutiny by soldiers like Norris, who prove that not all of them were bad. TBH the only thing that makes Porre look evil without Dalton is Lynx (who was a double agent of FATE) and a few asshat soldiers that exist in any army. The rest were just following orders from someone who had no idea what was really going on once Lynx left. And yes I know that Porre was in search of the Flame for power, but this was set in motion by Lynx. He used Porre just as much as the Dragoons, who arguably wanted it for the same thing. I don't see the clashing nations as Porre being evil so much as a conflict of ideals, and Porre just happens to be the current superpower.
So lets take a quick recap. The hard evidence that supports this is Lucca's letter, Crono and Marle's likely survival (also supported by how Doan was brought to 1000 AD at the end of Trigger which suggest Crono and Marle made a child at some point), Dalton's appearent absence, Truce existing in 1999 AD, and Lucca's apparently peaceful ties to the Porre Navy. The other stuff is mainly speculation based on the ambiguous nature of how the original crew was handled, as well as Dalton himself.
The evidence that goes against it...is nothing really. One could argue that the evidence outside of Lucca having connections to Porre and her letter suggesting Crono and Marle survived is open to interpretation as well. But IMO all of it put together with those pieces of evidence make it a very likely (while not definite) scenario.
So how about it, what do you think of this theory? Are there any problems? How likely do you find it?
One of the good things about the ambiguous nature of Cross is the possibilities it offers, and I look forward to hearing feedback based on this. And a shoutout to Acacia Sgt, who in another thread cleared a few things up for me that made me think a bit more out of the box.
4
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Why Crono, Marle, and Lucca MUST be alive after the events of Chrono Cross.
« on: July 24, 2020, 05:59:08 pm »
There has been much speculation regarding the fates of Crono, Lucca, and Marle at the time of Chrono Cross. Some believe them to be dead due to the ghost children and the fall of Guardia. Some believe them to be alive due to Lucca's letter, and others see those two things as contradiction and become indecisive on the matter. However, when all of the dots are connected the answer is really quite clear.
First off, let me say that they are both alive AND dead in CC. First lets look at the ghost children. They appear in the Dead Sea, Opassa Beach, and Terra Tower. In the Dead Sea, they are angry with Serge. They blame him for the future they prevented coming back in Home World. Many find this odd and wonder how Serge surviving could make that happen, but we will come back to that. Second we have Opassa Beach, where they appear to reveal some last minute plot twists and tie up loose ends before the final battle. Now the important thing to note here is that both of these take place in Home World, where the future is destined to be destroyed again. Terra Tower is in Another World, but you only encounter them in a small pocket dimension created by Belthesar and not Another World itself. This small pocket dimension exists in between both realities and the ghost children were pulled in temporarily, same as you. Upon exiting, the entrance is gone and you cannot return to it.
So what all of this tells me, is that they are dead in Home World, but when did they die? The answer is quite obvious actually. They died in 1999 AD during their final battle with Lavos. Home World splits when Serge is saved by Kid and many things are different from that point forward. CC takes place in 1020 AD, long before the Day of Lavos...so the Final Battle is now eligible for an alteration, which all of a sudden makes the Dead Sea and Serge being blamed a lot more believable. Crono and gang do not fight Lavos in 1999 AD until after they defeat Dalton on the Black Bird, which would still motivate him to militarize Porre and attack Guardia. He would have no way of knowing Crono already failed here. If Lucca had died against Lavos, she would have never taken in Kid either. This explains Kid's absence in Home World as well.
Now lets look at the letter from Lucca, which implies they are alive. This letter is given to Kid in Another World, which is the main timeline where the events of CT played out. This implies that Crono and Marle survived the fall of Guardia, and helped Lucca create an orphanage for war orphaned children. This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids. What happens here is likely that they join a resistance to take down Dalton and begin rebuilding Guardia. There are a few factors that support this.
The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason. It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.
In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre. This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre. Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.
Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways. It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war. While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.
And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated. Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird. Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself. If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world. Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be. This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation. And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack. If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well. This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.
What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia. With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace. Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself. This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.
Lucca being alive at the end of CC is a completely different, and much simpler matter to explain. The Chrono Cross merged realities and removed Chronopolis from the equation. This means that there is no FATE, which means there is no Lynx, which also means that Lucca is never kidnapped. This is supported also by the fact that Kid/Schala seems to live a much happier life at the end of CC.
And that is really the only thing that makes sense to me. There were a lot of dots to connect on this one within both games, and I am quite pleased with the results. So what do you think? Is this how you pictured their fates to turn out in the end? Does this theory sway you at all of not? And if not, how do you see it playing out?
First off, let me say that they are both alive AND dead in CC. First lets look at the ghost children. They appear in the Dead Sea, Opassa Beach, and Terra Tower. In the Dead Sea, they are angry with Serge. They blame him for the future they prevented coming back in Home World. Many find this odd and wonder how Serge surviving could make that happen, but we will come back to that. Second we have Opassa Beach, where they appear to reveal some last minute plot twists and tie up loose ends before the final battle. Now the important thing to note here is that both of these take place in Home World, where the future is destined to be destroyed again. Terra Tower is in Another World, but you only encounter them in a small pocket dimension created by Belthesar and not Another World itself. This small pocket dimension exists in between both realities and the ghost children were pulled in temporarily, same as you. Upon exiting, the entrance is gone and you cannot return to it.
So what all of this tells me, is that they are dead in Home World, but when did they die? The answer is quite obvious actually. They died in 1999 AD during their final battle with Lavos. Home World splits when Serge is saved by Kid and many things are different from that point forward. CC takes place in 1020 AD, long before the Day of Lavos...so the Final Battle is now eligible for an alteration, which all of a sudden makes the Dead Sea and Serge being blamed a lot more believable. Crono and gang do not fight Lavos in 1999 AD until after they defeat Dalton on the Black Bird, which would still motivate him to militarize Porre and attack Guardia. He would have no way of knowing Crono already failed here. If Lucca had died against Lavos, she would have never taken in Kid either. This explains Kid's absence in Home World as well.
Now lets look at the letter from Lucca, which implies they are alive. This letter is given to Kid in Another World, which is the main timeline where the events of CT played out. This implies that Crono and Marle survived the fall of Guardia, and helped Lucca create an orphanage for war orphaned children. This is supported by the drawings seen in Lucca's house, as if they were around to help with the kids. What happens here is likely that they join a resistance to take down Dalton and begin rebuilding Guardia. There are a few factors that support this.
The fact that Porre wants the Frozen Flame implies that they need it for some reason. It does not confirm that Guardia is rebuilding, but it does show that resistance is being met somewhere.
In the general Kid ending, she refers to Guardia being her first target for world domination, then they would attack Porre. This implies that Guardia does exist at some capacity, but is weaker than Porre. Pick off the weaker nation first and attack the big dog second.
Radius says Guardia was once peaceful, which can be taken two ways. It was either destroyed completely, or they are at war. While it does not confirm that Guardia is still around, it does not confirm its absence either.
And now for the BIGGEST piece of evidence that not only was there a resistance, but Dalton was defeated. Guardia and Truce exist in 1999 AD, even after Dalton loses on the Blackbird. Thats right, the evidence is in CT itself. If you lose in the final battle (before or after Dalton), you see Lavos ravage the world. Not only is Truce (part of Guardia), Porre, and other nations mentioned in the destruction, but there is another dome that sits just above where Lavos emerges...right where Guardia Castle would be. This implies that somehow, after the fall of Guardia where the Castle was taken and Truce is burned to the ground, Guardia was able to rebuild itself as a nation. And in order for that to happen, Princess Nadia herself would have to at least survive the initial attack. If she survived, it is likely Crono did as well. This is again backed up by my other points regarding Lucca's letter and the absence of the ghosts in Another World.
What seems most likely is that Crono and Marle eventually defeat Dalton and rebuild Guardia. With Dalton removed, Porre could have been more diplomatic with his replacement and even helped Guardia rebuild in the name of peace. Crono's enemy was not Porre after all, but Dalton himself. This is how both Porre AND Guardia are present during the Day of Lavos.
Lucca being alive at the end of CC is a completely different, and much simpler matter to explain. The Chrono Cross merged realities and removed Chronopolis from the equation. This means that there is no FATE, which means there is no Lynx, which also means that Lucca is never kidnapped. This is supported also by the fact that Kid/Schala seems to live a much happier life at the end of CC.
And that is really the only thing that makes sense to me. There were a lot of dots to connect on this one within both games, and I am quite pleased with the results. So what do you think? Is this how you pictured their fates to turn out in the end? Does this theory sway you at all of not? And if not, how do you see it playing out?
5
Characters, Plot, and Themes / The full effect of the Chrono Cross and how it ties up every loose end...(theory
« on: July 13, 2020, 11:49:28 am »
In a world where we have to accept that we will not be getting a new entry to the Chrono IP, I find myself thinking about how certain plot points (such as the fall of Guardia and the future of Zenan) could have a conclusion within mainline canon. After making this my main focus, I realized the answer was right in front of me the whole time and developed a new theory (at least I have never thought of it before).
We do not really know what the full extent of the Chrono Cross' power really is, as it was never specified. However many people seem to think that it only merges the two worlds from the game it is used in. I have never been a fan of this as it creates more questions than it does answers, nor is there any indication that it would be limited to those two realities alone. I mean, healing the scars of time with the Chrono Cross is enough to stop a creature that would otherwise devour every reality in existence. Surely if it could do that, it would do more than just merge two realities and stop there. No given what we know, and the description of what is given for the Chrono Cross, I believe it merges EVERY alternate reality into one single timeline. It basically hits the reset button on all of existence, and rewrites reality in a way that everything exists in one timeline. This is implied by the very description of the item noted by the ghost of Crono at the end of the game, "it can cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feelings; transfer memories; draw on the sounds of the six colored Elements to produce a healing harmony, and combine the sounds of the world into one melody."
So how would such a massive merge take place though? Well the CC is also said to, "heal the scars of time." But what exactly is a scar of time to begin with? The way I see it, a scar of time is where a timeline splits. That means that everytime history is changed to any degree, there is a split where two outcomes exist. One that was with interference, and one that was without. Yes that means that while Chrono Trigger appears to be on one changing timeline, there is actually a split taking place and Crono and gang simply return the the altered version of the timeline they changed. You just do not realize it, as you only follow the linear flow through time of Crono's quest and never venture between realities themselves (outside of the added DS content). This is supported by the fact that Kid was able to save Serge, and the result was two timelines. This is supported by the existence of the Radical Dreamers timeline confirmed in Chronopolis, and perhaps another split that is arguably the most important one found within the games...the existence of the Dinopolis Timeline.
The Dinopolis Timeline marks the very first scar of time in the history of the Chrono franchise. Basically there is one reality where Lavos comes to earth and the humans become the dominant race, and one where he does not and the Reptites evolve with the planet and become the dominant race themselves. So what caused this split though? It was simply the sheer power of the impact Lavos made with the planet that tore through spacetime and caused this split to happen. This is supported by the fact that in Chrono Trigger, when Lavos falls in pre history a gate is created in the impact zone. I literal in-game feat that took place in front of our very eyes.
So with all of that, it is safe to assume that alternate timelines were being created behind the scenes in Chrono Trigger as well, we just never see them. This also helps explain why Crono and gang have time traveler's immunity as well. Because when they make a change in time, they are not returning to the timeline they came from. They are instead returning to the altered version of that future with their memories in tact. So if say the grandfather paradox were to take place, it would not matter because the time traveler would not have come from the same timeline that their decendent had died in. They would simply be an anomaly existing in the new timeline. There are other examples as well, but I think the point is clear.
So back to the Chrono Cross healing the scars of time... basically every split that happens is erased, as well as the cause of said split. That means that Lavos never falls to earth and the events that kick off Chrono Trigger never happen. In this new timeline, Lavos does not exist as he was the source of spacetime being thrown out of wack to begin with. But that is not where it stops. The idea is to MERGE all realities, as well as transfer the existence of beings from those realities into this new one to exist in this new single reality. Merge memories and weave everything together in perfect harmony. This is why Kid and Schala are implied to have merged as well.
So what happens to the Reptites and why are humans still around? Simple really, they both existed in a timeline that is being merged so history is written in a way that both species evolve together. The Reptites would eventually become Dragonians (which was the race pulled and left behind from the original dinopolis timeline to begin with). After all, there is nothing saying that Dragonians were not present in the world at the end of Cross. All we see is Serge and Leena on the beach, and later Schala searching for Serge. Everything else regarding the world is open to interpretation. It also confirms that while El Nido was created by FATE after the time crash, it too was written into the merged timeline.
Another major change that takes place would be that the fall of Guardia, Lucca's kidnapping, and Porre being militarized would have never happened either. Porre would still have grown as a nation sure, but they would not have become the powerhouse they were in Cross for the same reason Guardia would not have fallen. Dalton would have never raised his army in Porre as his existence in that period was another change to the timeline that would have been erased. Furthermore Lynx would not have existed, so Lucca would be alive to raise Schala/Kid, which would lead her to become the version of herself we see in the credits. Crono and Marle would have still met at the fair as well, and likely would have still gotten married as their meeting took place before they time traveled to begin with.
So where does that leave the events of Chrono Trigger, were they pointless. Not at all, they were essential! Without the events of CT, the events of CC would have never happened. CT was simply the first half of a much larger narrative, even though it was never intended to be at the time of its initial release. The fan games and Radical Dreamers still have their place as well, but under the assumption that we are playing the events of alternate timelines before the Chrono Cross merges them in the end.
In the end, everyone wins and we have closure regarding many potholes (such as Crono and Marle's fate) and people get their happy ending back for CT that was compromised with the events of Chrono Cross. Everyone wins based on this interpretation of in game events.
So what do you think, does this theory make sense? Are there any contradictions that I need to address? Also I must note that this theory is based soley on canon events that take place within Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross. Widely accepted theory and speculation is irrelevant, as this is a new interpretation from me of confirmed plot points within the mainline games with the intent of providing closure and a solid conclusion under the assumption that a new Chrono game will not be happening. This is an ongoing theory and I will add tidbits from time to time to address things I may have overlooked as I speculate further. With that in mind, if you have anything to add everyone is more than welcome to join this analysis and provide input.
Thank you all, and I hope you enjoy this new theory.
We do not really know what the full extent of the Chrono Cross' power really is, as it was never specified. However many people seem to think that it only merges the two worlds from the game it is used in. I have never been a fan of this as it creates more questions than it does answers, nor is there any indication that it would be limited to those two realities alone. I mean, healing the scars of time with the Chrono Cross is enough to stop a creature that would otherwise devour every reality in existence. Surely if it could do that, it would do more than just merge two realities and stop there. No given what we know, and the description of what is given for the Chrono Cross, I believe it merges EVERY alternate reality into one single timeline. It basically hits the reset button on all of existence, and rewrites reality in a way that everything exists in one timeline. This is implied by the very description of the item noted by the ghost of Crono at the end of the game, "it can cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feelings; transfer memories; draw on the sounds of the six colored Elements to produce a healing harmony, and combine the sounds of the world into one melody."
So how would such a massive merge take place though? Well the CC is also said to, "heal the scars of time." But what exactly is a scar of time to begin with? The way I see it, a scar of time is where a timeline splits. That means that everytime history is changed to any degree, there is a split where two outcomes exist. One that was with interference, and one that was without. Yes that means that while Chrono Trigger appears to be on one changing timeline, there is actually a split taking place and Crono and gang simply return the the altered version of the timeline they changed. You just do not realize it, as you only follow the linear flow through time of Crono's quest and never venture between realities themselves (outside of the added DS content). This is supported by the fact that Kid was able to save Serge, and the result was two timelines. This is supported by the existence of the Radical Dreamers timeline confirmed in Chronopolis, and perhaps another split that is arguably the most important one found within the games...the existence of the Dinopolis Timeline.
The Dinopolis Timeline marks the very first scar of time in the history of the Chrono franchise. Basically there is one reality where Lavos comes to earth and the humans become the dominant race, and one where he does not and the Reptites evolve with the planet and become the dominant race themselves. So what caused this split though? It was simply the sheer power of the impact Lavos made with the planet that tore through spacetime and caused this split to happen. This is supported by the fact that in Chrono Trigger, when Lavos falls in pre history a gate is created in the impact zone. I literal in-game feat that took place in front of our very eyes.
So with all of that, it is safe to assume that alternate timelines were being created behind the scenes in Chrono Trigger as well, we just never see them. This also helps explain why Crono and gang have time traveler's immunity as well. Because when they make a change in time, they are not returning to the timeline they came from. They are instead returning to the altered version of that future with their memories in tact. So if say the grandfather paradox were to take place, it would not matter because the time traveler would not have come from the same timeline that their decendent had died in. They would simply be an anomaly existing in the new timeline. There are other examples as well, but I think the point is clear.
So back to the Chrono Cross healing the scars of time... basically every split that happens is erased, as well as the cause of said split. That means that Lavos never falls to earth and the events that kick off Chrono Trigger never happen. In this new timeline, Lavos does not exist as he was the source of spacetime being thrown out of wack to begin with. But that is not where it stops. The idea is to MERGE all realities, as well as transfer the existence of beings from those realities into this new one to exist in this new single reality. Merge memories and weave everything together in perfect harmony. This is why Kid and Schala are implied to have merged as well.
So what happens to the Reptites and why are humans still around? Simple really, they both existed in a timeline that is being merged so history is written in a way that both species evolve together. The Reptites would eventually become Dragonians (which was the race pulled and left behind from the original dinopolis timeline to begin with). After all, there is nothing saying that Dragonians were not present in the world at the end of Cross. All we see is Serge and Leena on the beach, and later Schala searching for Serge. Everything else regarding the world is open to interpretation. It also confirms that while El Nido was created by FATE after the time crash, it too was written into the merged timeline.
Another major change that takes place would be that the fall of Guardia, Lucca's kidnapping, and Porre being militarized would have never happened either. Porre would still have grown as a nation sure, but they would not have become the powerhouse they were in Cross for the same reason Guardia would not have fallen. Dalton would have never raised his army in Porre as his existence in that period was another change to the timeline that would have been erased. Furthermore Lynx would not have existed, so Lucca would be alive to raise Schala/Kid, which would lead her to become the version of herself we see in the credits. Crono and Marle would have still met at the fair as well, and likely would have still gotten married as their meeting took place before they time traveled to begin with.
So where does that leave the events of Chrono Trigger, were they pointless. Not at all, they were essential! Without the events of CT, the events of CC would have never happened. CT was simply the first half of a much larger narrative, even though it was never intended to be at the time of its initial release. The fan games and Radical Dreamers still have their place as well, but under the assumption that we are playing the events of alternate timelines before the Chrono Cross merges them in the end.
In the end, everyone wins and we have closure regarding many potholes (such as Crono and Marle's fate) and people get their happy ending back for CT that was compromised with the events of Chrono Cross. Everyone wins based on this interpretation of in game events.
So what do you think, does this theory make sense? Are there any contradictions that I need to address? Also I must note that this theory is based soley on canon events that take place within Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross. Widely accepted theory and speculation is irrelevant, as this is a new interpretation from me of confirmed plot points within the mainline games with the intent of providing closure and a solid conclusion under the assumption that a new Chrono game will not be happening. This is an ongoing theory and I will add tidbits from time to time to address things I may have overlooked as I speculate further. With that in mind, if you have anything to add everyone is more than welcome to join this analysis and provide input.
Thank you all, and I hope you enjoy this new theory.
6
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Idea for a sequel and the fate of the main cast....
« on: February 10, 2020, 03:43:05 pm »
Now I KNOW I am not the first to do this, but here is my take on where there is plenty of room for a 3rd mainline Chrono game. Many would wonder what left there could be to do after Cross. Trigger covered saving the future, Cross covered the consequences of messing with time, and healing the scars of time as a whole. So what could be left?
The events on the Zenan mainland that take place alongside of Cross of course! Think about it, Dalton is still sitting pretty in Porre after their invasion of Guardia. However Crono and Marle are still alive, and there is no way the prince and princess are just going to stand by and let him be. But wait...didn't they die?
Well no, not exactly. You see memories of them as children in Cross, which are only present in Home World (an alternate timeline). These are not ghosts, but echos of a time that no longer exists. Illusions if you will. Furthermore judging by Kid's age and the letter left by Lucca, it implies that someone is coming for her and her friends (Dalton). The fall of Guardia happened in 1005 AD, a time when Kid was a baby. However in the letter, Lucca talks to Kid as if she were older at the time she wrote it. This implies that Crono and Marle are still alive, and the fall of Guardia was more a way to get the Masamune in Porre's hands, which is how Lynx got the sword to El Nido after infiltrating and rising through the ranks. However, since Lynx did not exist in 1005 AD, someone else had to lead the attack. As shown by the DS release of CT, this was Dalton.
Now we have Dalton, someone versed in time travel and Dimensional Distortion, and a living Crono and Marle. It is important to note that there will only be references to the events of Cross happening at the same time, but the story will not interfere with Cross directly. This is because in Another World (the true timeline), FATE is very careful not to allow anyone from El Nido influence the events on the Zenan Continent, as to avoid changing the past and prevent the FATE computer system from ever being created at all. There is another approach to this however, that will bring us to our next topic...Lucca.
Lucca has always been assumed to be dead, but we do not know this for certain either. The only death to the original cast that is confirmed is Robo (Prometheus circuit). During the campfire scene with Kid, it is stated that Lucca was specifically kidnapped, not killed. It is also revealed later that Lucca was kidnapped to program around the Prometheus Circuit, to allow FATE to access the Frozen Flame again. However, things did not go as planned. There is no confirmation of her death however. Perhaps what went wrong with FATE's plan was the fact that Prometheus sort of had a bond with Lucca, and he could have helped her to escape. It is also possible that FATE couldn't kill Lucca, as she was a big deal in the science community on Zenan. When things did not pan out, she may have been released as well since killing her would influence history itself. There is also a possibility that her mind was wiped, since FATE could still do that in Another World as well.
The last possibility is that after the events of CC, the Chrono Cross heals the scars of time. Schala is free and there is no time crash for FATE to appear from. This also means that there is no Lynx, which means Lucca was never kidnapped. Guardia would still have fallen however, as that was Dalton to begin with.
So what we are left with is a living Crono, Lucca, and Marle. Dalton is backed by a massive Porre Military and is fighting against a resistance led by our heros in an effort to rebuild Guardia back to its former glory. Eventually time travel or Dimensional Distortions would come into play (again Dalton is versed in both) and he would either serve as the primary antagonist or a starting point till an even bigger threat reveals itself. And that, is where we will end this story for now. This is only a topic of how a new Chrono game could take place after all, and not a full blown fanfic.
So what do you think? Would this be a good starting point for a potential "Chrono Break"? What would you change, if anything? And where do you see the story going from here?
The events on the Zenan mainland that take place alongside of Cross of course! Think about it, Dalton is still sitting pretty in Porre after their invasion of Guardia. However Crono and Marle are still alive, and there is no way the prince and princess are just going to stand by and let him be. But wait...didn't they die?
Well no, not exactly. You see memories of them as children in Cross, which are only present in Home World (an alternate timeline). These are not ghosts, but echos of a time that no longer exists. Illusions if you will. Furthermore judging by Kid's age and the letter left by Lucca, it implies that someone is coming for her and her friends (Dalton). The fall of Guardia happened in 1005 AD, a time when Kid was a baby. However in the letter, Lucca talks to Kid as if she were older at the time she wrote it. This implies that Crono and Marle are still alive, and the fall of Guardia was more a way to get the Masamune in Porre's hands, which is how Lynx got the sword to El Nido after infiltrating and rising through the ranks. However, since Lynx did not exist in 1005 AD, someone else had to lead the attack. As shown by the DS release of CT, this was Dalton.
Now we have Dalton, someone versed in time travel and Dimensional Distortion, and a living Crono and Marle. It is important to note that there will only be references to the events of Cross happening at the same time, but the story will not interfere with Cross directly. This is because in Another World (the true timeline), FATE is very careful not to allow anyone from El Nido influence the events on the Zenan Continent, as to avoid changing the past and prevent the FATE computer system from ever being created at all. There is another approach to this however, that will bring us to our next topic...Lucca.
Lucca has always been assumed to be dead, but we do not know this for certain either. The only death to the original cast that is confirmed is Robo (Prometheus circuit). During the campfire scene with Kid, it is stated that Lucca was specifically kidnapped, not killed. It is also revealed later that Lucca was kidnapped to program around the Prometheus Circuit, to allow FATE to access the Frozen Flame again. However, things did not go as planned. There is no confirmation of her death however. Perhaps what went wrong with FATE's plan was the fact that Prometheus sort of had a bond with Lucca, and he could have helped her to escape. It is also possible that FATE couldn't kill Lucca, as she was a big deal in the science community on Zenan. When things did not pan out, she may have been released as well since killing her would influence history itself. There is also a possibility that her mind was wiped, since FATE could still do that in Another World as well.
The last possibility is that after the events of CC, the Chrono Cross heals the scars of time. Schala is free and there is no time crash for FATE to appear from. This also means that there is no Lynx, which means Lucca was never kidnapped. Guardia would still have fallen however, as that was Dalton to begin with.
So what we are left with is a living Crono, Lucca, and Marle. Dalton is backed by a massive Porre Military and is fighting against a resistance led by our heros in an effort to rebuild Guardia back to its former glory. Eventually time travel or Dimensional Distortions would come into play (again Dalton is versed in both) and he would either serve as the primary antagonist or a starting point till an even bigger threat reveals itself. And that, is where we will end this story for now. This is only a topic of how a new Chrono game could take place after all, and not a full blown fanfic.
So what do you think? Would this be a good starting point for a potential "Chrono Break"? What would you change, if anything? And where do you see the story going from here?
7
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Extra endings and their relevance to canon...
« on: February 10, 2020, 02:27:11 pm »
So a lot of references seem to be getting made to the extra endings to answer questions not answered in the main game, especially with Chrono Cross. A perfect example of this would be how Norris gives Kid the Hydra Humor. But can this really be what TRULY happens in canon, if Serge does not do it himself?
I ask this, because there are a lot of contradictions found in these endings. If they are non canon and there for fun (which I believe they are), then this is fine. However if you want to accept some of it as canon, then they all must be canon. There is no in between, as there would be nothing to distinguish the difference between what is and isn't canon. One can only make the claim that some of it can be "ambiguous canon", which means that it is not confirmed to be canon, but does not contradict CONFIRMED canon.
Here are some of the contradictions to established canon that I am talking about. General Kid my first example. Here we see Kid take over Viper Manor and become the new leader of the Dragoons. There are a few problems here, but lets pretend that the Dragoons would follow her just because she murdered Viper (they wouldn't), and lets pretend Kid's personality would allow her to seek world dominance (it wouldn't). There is one contradiction here that goes far beyond all of that. Kid walks out of Vipers Office holding the "Frozen Flame" and supposedly uses the "Frozen Flame" to conquer all nations. The narration at the end even states that the "Frozen Flame" is by her side. However canon would signify that Kid did NOT have the Frozen Flame at all, because she was holding the Dragon Tear that was in Viper's office instead. That right there should be proof enough to throw the validation of these endings out the window.
Another example is how just downright NASTY Lisa is to any female in one of the endings. In the main game, she seems rather sweet. But when Serge gets a job there, she goes for the throat when it came to Leena walking in (despite being close friends). Furthermore if Kid comes in, she lashes out at her as well for no reason at all. This is a bit minor compared to my previous example, but it is still a contradiction none the less.
So with these contradictions to the main canon being present, one must call certain ambiguous material in for question as well. For example, did Norris REALLY give Kid the cure? Or could it have been Janus watching over her (assuming that he is not Guile after he wipes his memory, but that is another topic)? Once again, there is no way to know for certain. All we have is Norris in a non canon ending as a potential suggestion, which in of itself has yet another contradiction. To get this ending, Kid has already broken into Viper Manor and threatened Riddel. Would she truly be able to just walk in there undisguised and land a job in the kitchen?
Now one thing I want to make clear, this does not apply to the Dream Devourer ending in CT, which is indeed canon. There are a few things that distinguish this from the others, but the main thing to make note of is that this is NOT a New Game Plus ending. It is a glimps of a future event involving Magus after Lavos is defeated, and explains how Porre became power hungry and militarized through the influence of Dalton. While you have to beat the game to unlock it, you do it within your main save file. That even makes sense in a way, because until you kill Lavos the Dream Devourer would not exist. So it makes sense that some Dimensional Vortex would open right before you face him when reloading the file, as beating the game the first time was what sent Lavos to the Darkness Beyond Time to begin with. The entire nature of this content is different and was made to draw a tighter connection to Cross.
So what do you think? Can we truly take anything from New Game Plus endings as canon, or are they just there for fun with a few ambiguous details that do not contradict the actual canon?
I gave my thoughts, lets hear yours!
I ask this, because there are a lot of contradictions found in these endings. If they are non canon and there for fun (which I believe they are), then this is fine. However if you want to accept some of it as canon, then they all must be canon. There is no in between, as there would be nothing to distinguish the difference between what is and isn't canon. One can only make the claim that some of it can be "ambiguous canon", which means that it is not confirmed to be canon, but does not contradict CONFIRMED canon.
Here are some of the contradictions to established canon that I am talking about. General Kid my first example. Here we see Kid take over Viper Manor and become the new leader of the Dragoons. There are a few problems here, but lets pretend that the Dragoons would follow her just because she murdered Viper (they wouldn't), and lets pretend Kid's personality would allow her to seek world dominance (it wouldn't). There is one contradiction here that goes far beyond all of that. Kid walks out of Vipers Office holding the "Frozen Flame" and supposedly uses the "Frozen Flame" to conquer all nations. The narration at the end even states that the "Frozen Flame" is by her side. However canon would signify that Kid did NOT have the Frozen Flame at all, because she was holding the Dragon Tear that was in Viper's office instead. That right there should be proof enough to throw the validation of these endings out the window.
Another example is how just downright NASTY Lisa is to any female in one of the endings. In the main game, she seems rather sweet. But when Serge gets a job there, she goes for the throat when it came to Leena walking in (despite being close friends). Furthermore if Kid comes in, she lashes out at her as well for no reason at all. This is a bit minor compared to my previous example, but it is still a contradiction none the less.
So with these contradictions to the main canon being present, one must call certain ambiguous material in for question as well. For example, did Norris REALLY give Kid the cure? Or could it have been Janus watching over her (assuming that he is not Guile after he wipes his memory, but that is another topic)? Once again, there is no way to know for certain. All we have is Norris in a non canon ending as a potential suggestion, which in of itself has yet another contradiction. To get this ending, Kid has already broken into Viper Manor and threatened Riddel. Would she truly be able to just walk in there undisguised and land a job in the kitchen?
Now one thing I want to make clear, this does not apply to the Dream Devourer ending in CT, which is indeed canon. There are a few things that distinguish this from the others, but the main thing to make note of is that this is NOT a New Game Plus ending. It is a glimps of a future event involving Magus after Lavos is defeated, and explains how Porre became power hungry and militarized through the influence of Dalton. While you have to beat the game to unlock it, you do it within your main save file. That even makes sense in a way, because until you kill Lavos the Dream Devourer would not exist. So it makes sense that some Dimensional Vortex would open right before you face him when reloading the file, as beating the game the first time was what sent Lavos to the Darkness Beyond Time to begin with. The entire nature of this content is different and was made to draw a tighter connection to Cross.
So what do you think? Can we truly take anything from New Game Plus endings as canon, or are they just there for fun with a few ambiguous details that do not contradict the actual canon?
I gave my thoughts, lets hear yours!
8
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...
« on: January 19, 2020, 09:19:01 pm »
Ok so I like to think I have a good handle on the plot of Chrono Cross (played it countless times, so I should), but there has been one glaring plot hole that I cannot seem to fill. Just what the heck does the Time Devourer that the Dragon Gods turn into and the Time Devourer in the Darkness Beyond Time have to do with one another?
In Terra Tower, Balthasar states that the Dragon God was created by the Reptites in Dinopolis. That this Time Devourer was a biological machine that was used to control nature. However the Time Devourer in the Darkness Beyond Time was formed from Lavos merging with Schala (which had nothing to do with the Reptites nor the Dinopolis Timeline).
So it sounds like they are two separate being with the same name, which would have been fine. But then after the fight on top of Terra Tower, Balthasar then retcons his previous statement and says that the Dragon God is just a form that the REAL Time Devourer uses to exist in reality. But this does not make sense to me...
Dinopolis exists in a timeline where Lavos did not come to earth, and the Reptites were able to evolve unhindered. They evolved closer with the planet and therefore created the Bio Machine Time Devourer (Dragon God) to manipulate nature itself as needed. I do not see them willing to use the power from Darkness Beyond Time to reach those ends, nor do I think they even could have come into contact with it in the first place. So as far as I can see, there is no way for the two Time Devourers to be linked to one another.
Now the Darkness Beyond Time exists outside of ALL realities, so theoretically TD could make contact with any reality. Once Lavos was killed, the TD would have been present in all time periods. That would include the time periods before Lavos was killed. So the only answer I can think of is that when Dinopolis got pulled into the past and across realities and waged war on Chronopolis, the TD then corrupted the "Dragon God" to influence the world before it could awaken and consume everything. This would be supported by the fact that the Dragon God is filled with hatred for humans and wants to wipe them out. This hatred would be amplified by the link with the Time Devourer as well since its base emotion is sorrow and hatred.
So maybe I am missing something, or it really is a huge plothole that got overlooked. Can anyone else shed some light on the subject? Am I close to having it figured out, or is there another explanation that fits better?
In Terra Tower, Balthasar states that the Dragon God was created by the Reptites in Dinopolis. That this Time Devourer was a biological machine that was used to control nature. However the Time Devourer in the Darkness Beyond Time was formed from Lavos merging with Schala (which had nothing to do with the Reptites nor the Dinopolis Timeline).
So it sounds like they are two separate being with the same name, which would have been fine. But then after the fight on top of Terra Tower, Balthasar then retcons his previous statement and says that the Dragon God is just a form that the REAL Time Devourer uses to exist in reality. But this does not make sense to me...
Dinopolis exists in a timeline where Lavos did not come to earth, and the Reptites were able to evolve unhindered. They evolved closer with the planet and therefore created the Bio Machine Time Devourer (Dragon God) to manipulate nature itself as needed. I do not see them willing to use the power from Darkness Beyond Time to reach those ends, nor do I think they even could have come into contact with it in the first place. So as far as I can see, there is no way for the two Time Devourers to be linked to one another.
Now the Darkness Beyond Time exists outside of ALL realities, so theoretically TD could make contact with any reality. Once Lavos was killed, the TD would have been present in all time periods. That would include the time periods before Lavos was killed. So the only answer I can think of is that when Dinopolis got pulled into the past and across realities and waged war on Chronopolis, the TD then corrupted the "Dragon God" to influence the world before it could awaken and consume everything. This would be supported by the fact that the Dragon God is filled with hatred for humans and wants to wipe them out. This hatred would be amplified by the link with the Time Devourer as well since its base emotion is sorrow and hatred.
So maybe I am missing something, or it really is a huge plothole that got overlooked. Can anyone else shed some light on the subject? Am I close to having it figured out, or is there another explanation that fits better?
9
Kajar Laboratories / So regarding the fan game Chrono Source...
« on: January 06, 2020, 12:12:30 am »
So I was on RPGmaker.net and came across a fan game called Chrono Source that is not listed on this site. Whenever I would try to download it, my AVG antivirus pulls it straight into quarantine as a potential threat. I looked into it and it seemed like it should be fine, as it did not match any known malware. So I made an exception, and went to start the game up. Sure enough it goes right back into quarantine...
Ran a deep scan on my computer, and all appears clean. But now I am wondering if the game is actually a threat or if it is just a really false positive. Does anyone have any experience with the game? Is it worth it to continue to bother? Is it safe or not?
https://rpgmaker.net/games/9668/
Thank you for anyone that can share any insight on the matter.
Ran a deep scan on my computer, and all appears clean. But now I am wondering if the game is actually a threat or if it is just a really false positive. Does anyone have any experience with the game? Is it worth it to continue to bother? Is it safe or not?
https://rpgmaker.net/games/9668/
Thank you for anyone that can share any insight on the matter.
10
Chrono Trigger Modification / Chrono fan games.
« on: December 22, 2019, 07:44:43 pm »
Hello everyone, huge Chrono fan here. I have played all three official games to death and back, and I am looking to get into playing some fan projects and mods out there. Is anyone able to give me a list of every known Chrono Trigger/Cross mod or fan project that is out there, and perhaps point me in the right direction to aquiring them?
I know if I research enough I can probably find the answers I am looking for, but I figure it would be quicker and easier to just ask this community directly seeing as how it is clearly the biggest Chrono community around.
Thanks in advance!
I know if I research enough I can probably find the answers I am looking for, but I figure it would be quicker and easier to just ask this community directly seeing as how it is clearly the biggest Chrono community around.
Thanks in advance!
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