Messages

1

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 17, 2022, 04:47:15 pm »

Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

Ah I found out where I got the Isle of the Damned memory from, I got the worlds mixed up.  Solt and Peppor tell you to piss off without Karsh in Another World, but in Home World Radius shows up for the Garai fight even if you do not having him in the party.  He does this for entering the Dead Sea as well, when the Masamune is blocking your way.

Just thought I would throw that out there since we were talking about it, and shows that SE was more than willing to have characters show up for key moments if they are not in your active party aside of just Kid.  With that in mind, I agree with you that they definitely could have given Guile/Magus a more meaningful and active role in the main plot regardless of the path you took.  If you did not pick him in Viper Manor, he could have done like Glenn and claim to follow his own path to get to each destination he would be needed for.

There have been several talks of running out of time and funding, so that probably had more to due with the change more than anything else.  It is a shame, but at least we have something now.  I came to terms with the whole cut content part a long time ago, so as much of a fan service move as this is I am happy we got it.

2

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 15, 2022, 05:48:30 pm »

Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

I may be mistaken about Isle of the Damned, but I can 100% confirm the Dario scenario as well as Razzly.  I have tested both of these personally.  For Dario, Riddel must be in your party but Radius and Karsh are also present regardless of if you bring them.

As for Razzly, there seems to be a Mandela effect going on here because I triggered this last night trying to get the campfire scene while taking the "save kid path".  When I googled it, many made the same claim as you.  However regardless of the fact that I never used Razzly, she was still present for the scene with the surviving fairies and no campfire scene took place.  Upon further testing, the only way Razzly is not present is if you do not recruit her at all and instead go straight to the Hydra.  Then and only then will she not show up, and you get the campfire cutscene instead (aside from taking the NOT saving kid path, for obvious reasons).

What makes the Razzly one so relevant to this topic though, is that she HAD to have been brought there by Serge.  When you recruit her, she states that she is not strong enough to cross the sea on her own.  So what this tells us is that even if she is not part of your party of three, she is indeed still present.  And that is what is relevant to Guile and Kid potentially still being present for this monologue to take place regardless of your three person team, in a scenario where you recruit Guile and do not ignore Kid.  In this instance, the gameplay mechanic of a three person party does not apply to the actual lore or events happening on screen.

Water Dragon Isle is probably the single segment of the game with the most possible variations, and I wonder why they did that. Razzly can be there and Rosetta can die, Razzly can be there and Rosetta can live, Razzly can be absent and Rosetta can die, Razzly can be absent and Rosetta can live, or if you just never go there the fairies are eradicated entirely by monsters.

Anyway, the point was… they clearly can convey the story of party members even if you don’t bring them along, which is why I find it confusing they couldn’t convey Magus in CC… the large roster of characters shouldn’t matter, just have him show up whenever he’s relevant, regardless of whether he’s in the party or not. Maybe the real reason is they just ran out of developer time.

I've noticed that if you have Norris and Zoah on your team in Termina, Another World Norris will be surprised to noticed Zoah and himself in your team. ironically, i've been using serge,kid,and guile and Guile does make a statement to you in Termina happy to learn you're alive, abit in Lynx's body, but cannot join due to unforseen circumstances.  been taking screenshots and video captures for some hilarious moments.

speaking of which, defeating miguel last night made me dream of him for some reason. must have been art inspiration.

There’s many, many instances like that. If you refused Kid and got Leena, Kid will assume she’s your girlfriend. If you go to the inn first thing after entering Termina, she’ll add a comment about Serge being sleazy. If you chose not to save Kid and bring Glenn to Mt Pyre and Fort Dragonia, he’ll have interactions with the Dragoons and General Viper. If you take Radius and Zappa to the Dead Sea, they’ll have a horrified reaction upon seeing the other Dragoons frozen in time. If you bring Another World Karsh to Home World Zappa, they’ll have a slight heart to heart.

There’s too many to list them all, but usually if you bring a character to a scene they’re relevant to, there will be some funny or interesting special dialogue. It’s one of the things I love about CC.

I think running out of time and limited resources is exactly why it got cut initially.  It is sad, but it was a very common thing to happen back in the PS1 era of JRPGs, which led to a lot of info dumps at the end of several games (CC included).  At the end of the day however giving us that extra bit in the Dream Devourer segment of CT DS and now this bit to further expand that it is plausible that Guile is indeed Magus is the best they can do at this point, at least without a full blown remake (which I am pretty sure isn't happening).  As much of a fan service move as it is, at least they gave us anything at all to touch up on such a heavily debated subject.  Maybe they had plans for Magus in Chrono Break, but once the game got dropped by SE this was all they could do without a proper budget.  There is no way to know for sure.

3

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 15, 2022, 04:05:03 pm »

Are you really sure about that? I could've sworn that wasn't the case... But I know for a fact that if you don't bring Karsh to the Isle of the Damned, Solt and Peppor will just tell you to piss off and go get him. Nothing happens until you bring him yourself.

I may be mistaken about Isle of the Damned, but I can 100% confirm the Dario scenario as well as Razzly.  I have tested both of these personally.  For Dario, Riddel must be in your party but Radius and Karsh are also present regardless of if you bring them.

As for Razzly, there seems to be a Mandela effect going on here because I triggered this last night trying to get the campfire scene while taking the "save kid path".  When I googled it, many made the same claim as you.  However regardless of the fact that I never used Razzly, she was still present for the scene with the surviving fairies and no campfire scene took place.  Upon further testing, the only way Razzly is not present is if you do not recruit her at all and instead go straight to the Hydra.  Then and only then will she not show up, and you get the campfire cutscene instead (aside from taking the NOT saving kid path, for obvious reasons).

What makes the Razzly one so relevant to this topic though, is that she HAD to have been brought there by Serge.  When you recruit her, she states that she is not strong enough to cross the sea on her own.  So what this tells us is that even if she is not part of your party of three, she is indeed still present.  And that is what is relevant to Guile and Kid potentially still being present for this monologue to take place regardless of your three person team, in a scenario where you recruit Guile and do not ignore Kid.  In this instance, the gameplay mechanic of a three person party does not apply to the actual lore or events happening on screen.

4

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 15, 2022, 03:17:29 pm »

Actually, if you don't bring Razzly to Water Dragon Isle, she won't be present during any of the scenes and the fairies will just throw a hissy fit at Serge. There are other character interactions that are entirely optional and possible to miss. If you bring someone related to Dario to meet him in Home World, they'll each have a unique dialogue with him.

Kid is the only character in the game (and Harle I guess) that will be present for major events no matter what you do, even if you refuse her multiple offers to join the party. She'll be there in Viper Manor, and in Fort Dragonia, I'm pretty sure Serge still reminisces about her aboard the S.S. Invincible, and she'll be there in Chronopolis. Terra Tower I'm not sure, I think she's absent if you don't save her from her coma.

Actually you are mistaken as I just did this last night.  Took the saving Kid path, recruited Razzly, and never used her once AT ALL.  At the end of Water Dragon Isle, she was still present for the fairies throwing a hissy fit at Serge regardless.

There are other instances as well, like if you do not bring Karsh to Isle of the Damned he will still be there.  Or when you talk to Dario and trigger his fight, Karsh and Radius are also present despite not being in the party.  I think you may want to revisit the game and see for yourself if you think Kid is the only character that can show up regardless of being in the party or not, because there are quite a few times it happens with other characters as well.  It is understandable that you may have not noticed though, Cross has a lot of little nuances that can be forgotten overtime.

5

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 15, 2022, 02:01:57 pm »

It’s intriguing, but not much more than that. Nothing was shown or heard, just some plains walls of text on a plain background. Reading it just makes me wish that much more that they could have found a way to include Magus in a more meaningful way in CC. I understand that the ability to bring any party member you want would make it difficult to tell his story, but then again isn’t it the same for Kid? You can pretty much ignore her and never recruit her, and she will still be present for some of the game’s major events. They could have done the same for Magus.


Then again, if Magus was in CC, everyone would pretty much just constantly have Kid and Magus in the party and ignore the 42 other characters. Except Glenn, maybe.

Well of course picking a different path would affect this, this theory only affects the potential outcome of picking Guile and not ignoring Kid.  As for who the final party members are, we have to remember that lore and gameplay mechanics do not really apply to each other all of the time.  It is for this reason we are not invincible when we play a superman game for example.  And since having 3 specific party members is a gameplay mechanic and not really lore specific...you can see where I am going here.  In fact, there is already an example of this in Cross itself.  If you go to water dragon isle for the ice breath and do not bring Razzly with you, she will still be present in the concluding cutscene and talk with the angry fairies about Rosetta and how she chooses to stay with Serge.  Just because she was not in your active party of three does not mean she is not present, and the same could be said for Guile and Kid at Opassa Beach at the end of the game.

As for why they did it, fan service 100%.  It doesn't really change anything, except making the idea of Janus being present when Schala is saved a viable possibility, pending on the choices you make in the game.  And given that this is just a 20 dollar emulated port, I am suprised they even did this much TBH.  Though I too wish they did more, between the CT DS addition and this they at least made Guile being Magus plausible.  And for that I am happy.

6

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 15, 2022, 01:00:05 pm »

The reference of a "time war" also seems to regard a battle with the Time Devourer, since at maturity it is said it would devour all of time.

Oh wow, I can't believe I didn't noticed that typo.

It's was, not war. "The time was near". Already fixed it.

Ah gotcha, I will remove that part from the theory as well.  Thanks for correcting!

7

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Revisiting Guile being Magus retcon with added info from CC remaster... SPOILERS

« on: April 15, 2022, 09:25:08 am »

So Guile being Magus has been an ongoing topic for a long time.  The brief rundown is that in the original game, Guile was supposed to represent Magil from Radical Dreamers (who was indeed Magus).  However due to the scope Chrono Cross was going for, the team had difficulty getting it to fit and made Guile as his own ambiguous character.  This however seemed to have possibly changed with the DS release of the Chrono Trigger and the Dream Devourer ending.  In this ending, Magus confronts the Dream Devourer (which is actually the Time Devourer we find in Cross in the beginning stages of its evolution), and Schala says to him that power alone cannot save her, and he would never save her as he is now.  Magus then decides that if all the power he was seeking was for nothing, he would wipe out his own identity in hopes that he would become someone who would tread a different path and potentially find a way to save her, should any part of his former self remain.

He wakes in the forest, confused and ignorant of his former self.  He says that he feels there is something he must do and something he must find, and will do whatever it takes to remember what it was.  The idea behind this, is that he becomes Guile in CC who is wondering the world searching for enigma.  If he is in your party when you approach the Frozen Flame, he even says something along the lines of, "Is this what I've been searching for? No!! I am no such thing... what good is it to have such dark power??"

Now we enter Chrono Cross Radical Dreamers Edition.  While there is nothing new within the game itself, there is an extra monologue unlocked in the post credits once you have completed BOTH CC and RD.  This is still open to interpretation, but it is most likely referring to Guile and expanding on the retcon that was started in the DS port of CT.  Here is my interpretation and why I believe this to be the case...

"The time was near - the final battle awaited.
There, alone in the shadows, the man lingered.
HIs partners, a young man and a young woman,
had already made their preparations, and were
waiting for him at the place they had agreed upon."

This seems like a reference to Opassa Beach at the end of CC.  This would be the meeting place for the final battle, and Serge/Kid would be the young man and woman.

"Their foe was a fearsome opponent indeed.
Would the three of them be able to defeat him?
There was only one way to find out.
All the better - what fun is a battle
whose outcome is all but certain."

The fearsome opponent would be the Time Devourer itself.  The only thing that might be argued against this is emphasis on the word "he" and "him", instead of using the word "it" since TD is an evolution of Lavos (which is an a sexual being).  However mislabeling such beings as "him" or "her" is a common thing for people to do, and not really enough to outright disprove anything.  One theory is that "him" might be referring to Lynx in RD, but there are other factors that more point toward Guile over Magil that we will get into, the above point being one as there was no meeting place for a final battle or preparing to be made in RD.

"The man reached a hand to his mask-
silver and unembellished,
save for a few subtle details."

The color of the mask goes against Guile and Magil as both wear gold masks, and is likely an oversight IMO.

"It had been many long years
since he last revealed his face.

Did he wear the mask to hide himself from others?
Or did he wear it to hide from himself?

Enough time had passed that
not even he was sure anymore."

This is a direct reference to both Magil and Guile.  Hiding from others would be Magil, who was very aware of his purpose and that (in RD) Kid is actually Schala.  Hiding from himself is more of a reference to Guile not wanting to remember who he was, and his memory wipe.  This can work both ways.

"But it didn't matter now.
The end was coming - an end to everything.
Soon, his long days of wandering would be over.
So too would the girl's ill-fated, fleeting existence."

Now while the above point works for both, this points more toward Guile.  The ill fated girl is most likely a reference to Schala's fleeting existence within the Time Devourer.  This would end in the form of her being liberated from the Chrono Cross.  His long days of wandering is again, a reference to Guile's character.  He was searching and wandering in search of something...did not know what, but he knew he needed to find something (as confirmed by the above quote when he approached the Frozen Flame).  There are several references to Guile being a wander in search of "enigma" as well.

"How many years had passed?
How many centuries?
How much love and prayer,
how much hatred and rancor,
how much despair and resignation,
had slowly and silently fallen over him,
piling up like snow?"

This is a reference to Magus in general.

"On that fated day, long, long ago...
everything that he was had vanished...
Faded away into nothingness...
without so much as a whimper...

There was nothing he could have done to stop it...

But one memory stayed with him,
even after everything else fell away.
One unforgettable image...

That kingdom of winds, forever lost..."

There was nothing he could have done to stop it, speaks to when he failed to save Schala from the Dream Devourer.  "everything he was" vanishing is likely a reference to when he wiped his memory.  The unforgettable image is Schala's smile and the reason he searches for "something".  The Kingdom of Winds is a reference to Zeal itself, which could also interpret that this entire part is referring to the fall of Zeal, but the rest does not add up as well to that as it does for Guile.  For example, Magus was not searching for Schala in the start of CT as he thought she was dead.  He also did not know he could willingly time travel at the time either.  This is why he was more fixated on revenge and summoning Lavos to kill it, rather than finding Schala.

"Those blessed days in a paradise above the clouds...

And that face... Her gentle, bitter-sweet smile...

Perhaps his time behind the mask
was coming to an end..."

Reference to his days with Schala and the end of his quest.

"His icy gaze seemed to thaw for a moment-
and then he sprang to action.

The moonlight flashed across the mask's surface.
His silvery hair flowed behind him,
reaching out like the tail of a coment.

"The time has come, o fated star-
the king has returned."

And with that... he vanished into the darkness."

The moonlight reference points that this was his thoughts from the night before (very early morning most likely) actually going to Opassa Beach off screen, and is further supported by the fact that above he speaks of preparation and going to the meeting place (opassa beach) suggesting he is not physically there yet.  Vanishing into darkness was a trademark of Magil, but given all the other evidence pointing to Guile instead, it could also just be a tribute to the character Guile was originally supposed to represent as well.  This could also be a reference to entering the Darkness Beyond Time as well.

"Though a life may end, a story lives on.
Not forever, perhaps, but...

What's eternity...

... compared to this moment in time?

fin."

A life ending could be Kid if he thinks she will merge with Schala, being her daughter clone and all.

...

So a few side notes to bring up...as we can see Guile would have his memories back in this scenario.  There is no outright confirmation that this happened, but it is strongly implied which is the only way to do it without messing with the original script of CC.  So when could this have happened?  A user by the name of Prince Janus came up with a good one that I subscribe to.  Basically when he approached the Frozen Flame, he has a revelation from its influence and regains his memories.  He keeps his thought to himself, as it serves no purpose to tell Serge and Kid what he came to realize.  Magus was pretty introverted to begin with, so it fits the character too.

So when you look at all this, there is a much stronger argument to say this is an expansion of the original CT retcon than a reference to Magil from RD.  Someone did bring up another possibility, that due to the silver mask we may be seeing yet another version of Magus in yet another timeline, but such a monologue serves no purpose unless they are teasing a new game, which I have my doubts about.  It is for this reason I believe it must either refer to Magil or Guile, and for the reasons above I feel Guile fits the bill.  However a hint at a new game is indeed totally possible, so I respect the opinion of anyone that feels that way.  Myself personally however, I feel like I will cross that bridge if/when that is announced and draw my conclusions based on the data and lore we already have.

Thoughts?

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=13731.msg234624#msg234624 for those that want to read the original un-noted version of the new content.

8

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: *SPOILERS INSIDE* CCRD New Secret Scene Transcription

« on: April 15, 2022, 08:20:59 am »

I read this referring to Radical Dreamers but reading it through again, this can fit within Chrono Cross, baring certain choices during the playthrough. First, Guile needs to be chosen to take the party to Viper Manor (obviously lol). Assuming Guile is kept in the party the entire time up until the Lynx switch, then immediately placed back in the party when you get your body back, he would be exposed to all of the conversations and plot points in the story, leading up to meeting the ghost children at the end.

This would be Guile's first interaction with the ghost children because it's impossible to have him at the party during the dead sea section when Serge meets the children. Seeing and hearing Crono, Marle, and Lucca, it's reasonable to think that this snaps his memory back, and then remembering who he is and that this is now his chance to take on the dream (time) devourer again. But this time he has Serge, Kid (his sister technically?), and the Chrono Cross.

The extra dialog is his thoughts when descending into the darkness beyond time.

This is my thought as well.  I am going to make a more in depth theory thread later on this and how it could tie to the DS ending as well later today.

9

General Discussion / Re: What Are You Currently Playing? (Do NOT Just Make a List)

« on: June 02, 2021, 10:00:53 am »

Currently playing Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne on Switch.  I love the post apocalyptic focus and the general theme of the game.  Has me very hyped for SMTV later this year.

10

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Each version of Chrono Trigger represents its own dimension (theory)

« on: August 19, 2020, 11:45:31 am »

I think you can think bigger! You could say every playthrough is its own dimension, considering you can do things differently each time. Or even each play session could be its own dimension since you can start from a safe file any time. Each released version of each game represents a range of dimensions from the spectrum of possibilities.

Oh absolutely.  I dunno about going as far as to say every time you load a save, but there is nothing that goes against the notion.

I was thinking more along the lines of the various choices you could make.  Like if you pick Nikki or Pierre in Chrono Cross to go into Viper Manor, that could be a timeline you decided to kill Magus in CT (since it is now implied Guile could be Magus post memory wipe).  Or do you kill Lavos via the bucket, Black Omen, or Epoch?  If you picked Omen, what time period did you do it in?  Obviously there will be a difference between doing it in 12,000 BC vs 1000 AD, so they would each have their own dimensional timeline.

For simplicity's sake however, I decided to stick with the potential of an SNES, Playstation, and DS timeline to get my point across.  Using the same logic however, all of these are covered by Magus' "There are as many worlds as there are potentialities" statement.  I figured I would keep it simple to get the theory going to avoid confusion, and let the imagination of the reader go from there.

11

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Each version of Chrono Trigger represents its own dimension (theory)

« on: August 18, 2020, 11:13:41 pm »

Yeah, I think the fact that there's a multiverse in the Chronoverse.

Radical Dreamers being one post-Chrono Trigger reality, and Chrono Cross representing a different post-Chrono Trigger reality (in fact, Chrono Cross would represent multiples realities tied together).

In fact, a computer console in the Dead Sea states that there are likely other realities, even hinting at Radical Dreamers as one of them (sort of a meta-joke because Chrono Cross is a remake of Radical Dreamers).

Your theory isn't necessarily intentional by the creators, but the theory holds true. If there are indeed an infinite number of universes, then in turn each version of the game is likely a universe in this neverending sea of realities.

Pretty much exactly how I feel.  I would not say that the theory was intentional, it just kind of fell together that way.  What I do believe was intentional was what Kato implied with the "There are as many worlds as there are potentialities" line from CT DS.  At this point, I could see him knowing a Chrono 3 will likely not happen, and basically stating that the story lives on through the fans.

He did say himself that he loves the speculation and theories afterall.

12

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Each version of Chrono Trigger represents its own dimension (theory)

« on: August 18, 2020, 06:52:19 pm »

So I had a discussion about the Dimensional Vortex with someone in Discord recently, and I came to a rather cool revelation for a new theory.  As we know, there are multiple dimensions in the CT multiverse that follow their own sequence of events based on possibilities.  It is basically the many worlds theory where every possible outcome has its own reality.  Some are very similar, like Chrono Cross and Radical Dreamers.  Others are very different, like the Dinopolis timeline.  But they are all following their own sequence of events from the beginning of time.

Before we get into this, I am not claiming several splits to a single timeline.  Inter-dimensional travel is still possible in the DS version of Chrono Trigger and even in Chrono Cross as seen by Dinopolis being in the Time Crash incident.  The only timeline that we know of that splits off from a singular dimension is Home World in Chrono Cross, which split from another world.  The Chrono Cross timeline (and I am stealing this analogy) is basically a fork where one single dimension splits into two separate timelines at a certain point.  All other known timelines are their own dimensions that follow events either very closely, or very differently based on what alternate possibility is taking place.  This is confirmed by Magus within the Dimensional Vortex of CT DS.

Now to the theory at hand...

Basically there are three different versions of CT.  The SNES version, the Playstation version, and the DS version.  Yes I know there is a mobile and steam version as well, but they are basically just ports of the DS version with no difference between them outside of how they perform.  So for this theory, I will only be refering to the three.

In this theory, SNES version of CT is its own timeline outside of Chrono Cross.  You play through the game, the end.  No Fall of Guardia, no disappearance of the masamune, and no FATE creating El Nido.  This makes sense because there is nothing leading into Cross, as Cross was not being planned at the time.  But there is still that one story arc that was left unresolved between Schala and Magus that led to Cross being made in the first place...

And Kato addressed that with the next entry in the SNES timeline.  Radical Dreamers would be the true direct follow up to this version of CT (sorry Lucca, you don't get off that easy).  Here Schala IS Kid reincarnated, rather than just being a "daughter clone".  She does not become the Time Devourer, but her story does continue.  The Radical Dreamers timeline is confirmed to exist in Cross itself, and seeing how RD was eventually formed into a CT follow up, this makes sense as there are no references that tie the SNES version of CT to CC found within the game itself.  As a bonus, if you look at "out of world evidence" RD was released only in Japan via an add on service to the SNES.  So essentially the SNES timeline is actually contained on the SNES itself.  Probably a coincidence, but it is still a neat bit to point out.

Then we have the Playstation timeline, where Chrono Cross takes place.  The PS version of CT, unlike the SNES version, actually had content added to the game that ties it to Cross.  In this timeline, the Fall of Guardia takes place via Dalton's revenge, which lead to the disappearance of the Masamune, and to Porre being a military nation.  FATE creates El Nido after the Time Crash and the events of Chrono Cross take place leading to a split in the PS timeline we know as Home World and Another World.  The where abouts of Crono and Marle are unknown in this timeline as well, outside of speculation.  As an added bonus, both games are tied to the Playstation console.

Now we have the DS version, which is a little more complicated.  Outside of a more accurate translation, the battle arena, and the ability to peak into the Dinopolis Timeline via the Lost Sanctum...it is basically the exact same timeline as the Playstation Timeline.  The mentioned additional content has no effect on that.

There is one bit however, that does create a DS timeline, that is left wide open with no known follow up.  AFTER you kill Lavos and you are greeted with the ending scenes from the PS version, something happens.  A Dimensional Vortext opens up in ANOTHER TIMELINE right before Crono would have fought and killed Lavos.  The Dimensional Vortex is confirmed to be canon, but requires you to beat the game and reload your save from just before that.  It makes sense that killing Lavos would trigger such an event in another dimension, as this would lead our heros to find the Dream Devourer.  Here they encounter Dalton and learn of his plan.  They also run into Magus from the Playstation timeline, as he states that he comes from a future where he and the group already killed Lavos.  This implies that he is from the timeline where you just killed Lavos and beat the game and that the party you are controlling is from an alternate timeline where a Dimensional Vortex opens, triggered by the fall of Lavos.  He also states that there are as many worlds as there are potentialities, confirming the many worlds theory.

You see him fight and fail, then it is revealed that this Magus is sent back to his timeline, where he erases his memory to POTENTIALLY become Guile in Chrono Cross.  The party you controlled however is sent back to the other timeline, from which they entered the Dimensional Vortex.  They now have knowledge of the Dream Devourer in this timeline, as well as Dalton's plan to attack Guardia.  What they do with said info is anyone's guess however, as the DS timeline (only the part pertaining to the Dimensional Vortex) is left wide open with no follow up.

So what does all of this mean exactly?

Well I think that this was Kato making a statement.  He knows there will likely never be a Chrono 3...but that does not mean the IP is dead.  With the Dimensional Vortex, every relevant fanfic, fangame (Example Crimson Echos and Flames of Eternity), etc is made canon to their own Dimensional Timeline that follow their own sequence of events in the Chrono Multiverse.  Basically SE did not greenlight him to make a sequel in his vision after Cross.  But the Chrono franchise continues to live through the minds and hearts of the fans.  There are as many worlds as there are potentialities, and we have been entrusted by the man himself to keep these worlds alive.

13

General Discussion / Re: What Are You Currently Playing? (Do NOT Just Make a List)

« on: August 13, 2020, 07:27:18 am »

Currently my main focus is Paper Mario Origami King, Animal Crossing New Horizons, and I am 10 hours into Last of Us 2.  Animal Crossing gets most of my time while I chip away at Paper Mario over the weekend.  Last of Us 2 I will beat eventually, but I find it hard to motivate myself to play it right now.  The gameplay is solid, but the plot leaves much to be desired so far.

14

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?

« on: August 12, 2020, 05:39:49 am »

About Home World, the way you worded it made you sound like it was made from scratch from creation (by creation I mean creation of the planet itself or the start of all time) and I was talking about why that could not be the case.  I have always implied that Home World splits off of Another world as a "fork".  In fact, you basically just described my entire point in your follow up reply.

I think the misunderstanding may be true, as that's what your posts also made it seem. With all the "This can't happen due the split" and stuff.

As for there being no time travel in the future, I already said I agreed with the notion and saw it as valid in my reply to Kodokami.  Why bother going into detail about it again, when that wasn't even what I was debating against to begin with.  I was arguing Home World would not exist from scratch without time travel at all, and you put a spin on it to make it sound like I was implying something else.  When you say a new timeline is created by scratch, direct quote from you, it is implied that you meant from the beginning of all time and not split from Another World.  It was a simple misunderstanding due to poor wording on your part (for that part of your prior post, the rest was well done).  The only difference between what we are saying at that point would be Crono fighting Lavos in 1999 AD would not happen, which again I already agreed with Kodokami.  It does make a lot more sense that way.

I did stated it was at the point of divergence. The timeline is only changed from the point of the divergence to the future. I did specified that everything before remains the same.

As for the Porre theory being based on incorrect information, no none of it is incorrect.  It is a THEORY based on analysis of in game evidence.  As a theory, I am saying it is POSSIBLE but there is not enough hard evidence to call it fact.  Thats what a theory is...a theory.

So please, tell me what was "incorrect" about the theory.  I even clarify that most of it is open to interpretation, and explain how it would work.  So unless you have something constructive to add other than, "incorrect information" without clarification, it just seems to me you don't like the theory but lack any evidence to disprove it.  There is a big difference between an interpretation of information that cannot be confirmed, and incorrect information.

Some things are indeed wrong. Like the parts about Kid not existing in Home World or Crono and company dying against Lavos in the same. I apologize for that as indeed they aren't part of your theory.

The problem is, your theory relies on the idea that the fates of Crono and company are different in each world. That alone could be fine... if it was post-split. What can make it wrong is that since it's still a single timeline at that point in time, there can be only one fate. As Crono, Lucca, and Marle were present for the Fall from the perspective of Home World too, since it's still only one timeline at that point. So only other option is to be something that happened post-split. Your main point is that the existence of the ghost children shows that Crono, Lucca, and Marle are dead; but since the ghosts don't show up in Another World, then it means they have to be alive over there.

Which means they either all died or lived pre-split... or something happened different in each world that killed them in one but not the other.

Now, Lucca can be accounted for since Lynx attacking the orphanage happened in both worlds. The problem would be for Crono and Marle. Your retaliation idea could work if it happened post-split, where they died in Home but lived in Another. Timelines are already diverging for it to be possible. Still, this relies on their fates being indeed different in each world. But then, it is a theory.

(sorry if I seem irritated, I am just a but frustrated that we put out two rather drawn out replies to one another based on a misunderstanding when we were for the most part agreeing on the same thing lol.)

It's alright. Debates like this can get a bit passionate.

Also, to clarify, my statement wasn't just an "You're wrong", I made the points and the statement was more in the likes of "... and that's why you're wrong". Still, I apologize for that.

The theory itself does not need them to be dead or alive in Home World.  Until this discussion, I was basing their death in Home World to be due to a failure in 1999 AD.  After our discussion however, I like the idea that they just never appeared there at all and the Ghost children are more echos of the changed future taking the form and persona of the heros that would have saved it.  So with that in mind, and I did specify this earlier, they would still be alive and a part of Porre in Home World as well.  That is of course unless the retaliation came after the split, but I feel it would have taken place before that.  The note I made about that may have gotten lost in translation in the wake of a misunderstanding that already took place between us.

Home World was never really relevant to the theory itself, I just brought it up because because based on what I thought was the case would prevent it from also being true in Home World.  However I had the wrong idea about Home World itself and figured they were likely dead through some sort of butterfly effect and a failure in 1999 AD.  But as you pointed out, in the beginning I was thinking in the wrong line of linearity in regards to how Home World worked.  With that not being the case, the Porre theory remains the same but it applies to both worlds.  Only their actions within Porre would change post split, which is anyone's guess and nothing but fanfiction at that point.  That is why I said the information provided to support Crono, Marle, and Lucca working with Porre had nothing incorrect about it.  There is speculation involved based on actual tid bits we see in the game, but nothing solid enough to take it beyond being a possibility.  If there was a factual definitive fate for our heros, it would have been discovered long before now.  When I make these, I am speaking about possibilities of ambiguous plot points that are left open, because without another game thats all we can really do to keep the Chrono plot discussions alive.

So Home World was more of a side note that led us to go off topic, because honestly I would have been better off not bringing it up at all as it was never intended to be used as evidence.  I am glad I did though because even though something got lost in translation at some point, I still got a lot of useful info out of it in the end.

On another note, it is a shame the Ultimania guids for Chrono Trigger DS and Chrono Cross were never officially localized.  I would have loved to add them to my collection and read through them myself.  I have the official SNES guide and the Chrono Cross guide from Brady Games.  But man I wish I could add the Ultimanias to that list, especially since I don't think there was ever a US guide released at all for CT DS.

15

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Crono, Marle, and Lucca now a part of Porre?

« on: August 11, 2020, 09:16:24 pm »

I thought long and hard on the best way to reply, and I agree with a lot of what you are saying.  First let me point out that when I make my theories, I only care about in game evidence.  Anything found in guidebooks (such as ultimania) is taken with a grain of salt, as they are not truely written by the creators.  An example of this is the Legend of Zelda Timeline.  There is a trilogy of books that are considered canon, but the 1st and 3rd book directly contradict eachother (Hyrule Historia and Hyrule Encyclopedia).  The placement of one of the games (Link's Awakening) is changed as well as the description of other games (Majora's Mask for example) has changed as well.  They are written by the same group of people and both signed off by the creators at Nintendo as canon.  Now one could argue that Zelda was never meant to have a timeline, but that would mean ignoring Aonuma's constant claims that there was one long before the first book was written (which makes one question comments made by the writers outside of the games themselves as well).  Now Kato is not Aonuma and Chrono is not Zelda, but this is just an example as to how guide books and interviews may not be as definitive as some might think.  So whether you accept the Zelda Timeline as canon or not, it just proves that pretty much anything outside of in-world evidence is subject to change and should be taken with a grain of salt.  Radical Dreamers itself is an example of an idea Kato had, but was later reformed into Chrono Cross.  Many of his original visions changed between games, the only difference is that Radical Dreamers was still included in canon through in-game explaination by way of being yet another alternate reality.

Not everything the game developers intend to can get included into the game. Cross was no exception. The info dumps from the ghost children at Opassa is one such example where the developers just, well, dumped it there because they couldn't put it somewhere else. Even then more info got left out. Which is why we have stuffs like the Ultimania guides. They're canon. Not just for Cross, but other games who have entries in there with the same sort of situations. Whether you accept it or not, it's still canon. Keep in mind that even the game itself will have info that got inserted incorrectly. So outside sources also work to correct that stuff.

I am definitely not on board with the whole "Home World is created from scratch" theory, where Crono and gang do not time travel.  That creates more problems than answers because now there is no explanation for why Dalton would be there for the Fall of Guardia and most of what you just said would be null and void due to TTI within the original timeline being a non-factor because if the world was created from scratch with no time travel, nothing that required time travel to begin with could play out exactly the same.  The rules for TTI would not affect a completely new world created from scratch, so it pretty much has to be a direct split rather than and entirely new timeline from creation.  Not to mention Serge would not be the Arbiter of the Flame as Chronopolis would never have been a factor, which sends the entire plot of Cross into disarray.  There is even evidence within home world that shows everything prior to the split was the same, because until the split happens Chronopolis is present and Serge comes into contact with the flame.  Then overtime, due to having a different future after the split, the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea to reflect that changed future.  This is supported by the fact that key characters in Home World remember it once being the Sea of Eden, and changing 3 years prior to Cross.  Miguel himself confirms this within the Dead Sea and Serge's mother confirms that Serge's father still becomes Lynx.  All of this combined suggests that time travel was still a thing in Home World, and any alterations came after a direct split from Another World.

Why would Dalton not be there? Everything related to him is pre-split, and every time travel case before the split is also preserved. Only the time travels that happen after 1010AD do not carry over as they're confined to Another World. Lavos's own to 1999AD is preserved because his pocket dimension likely got duplicated too, so it's Home World Lavos emerging in HW 1999AD.

Serge is the Arbitrer regardless to what happens to Chronopolis after the split, because it's a trait that was created pre-split, in 1006AD. That doesn't change.

Home World only existing from 1010AD onward is still tied to the single timeline that exists before the point of the split. Like Kodokami says, it's like a fork. Both timeline share what happens before, but after the split it's fair game what happens different on each. If you want some visual representation, it's basically this:

https://cdn3.iconfinder.com/data/icons/leto-arrows-2/64/_split_fork_arrow-512.png

The way the time travel works is that everything after a point of divergence gets thrown to the DBT, replaced with a new time line that develops in accordance to the change. Everything before the point is unaffected. The Home/Another split happened because instead of Another World being thrown to the DBT, it... didn't. Home World simply branched on its own, without replacing Another. As a result, instead of a single line, we end with a fork, but everything before remains unaffected as usual.

So everything still taking place in Home World but protected under TTI is essential for the mess of a timeline that is Home World to exist the way it does with any feasible in-game explaination behind it.  So in this scenario, Crono fails to kill Lavos in 1999 AD and this version of Crono, Marle, and Lucca die to become the ghost children.  This is what is reflected by the Dead Sea and the versions of them that exist in periods prior would still be there via TTI.  When Lucca says, "I don't mean to upset you, but we no longer exist in this timeline" she must be refering to that specific version of them that failed in Home World.

So to recap, Crono, Marle, and Lucca die against Lavos in Home World 1999 AD to become the ghost children.  The past versions of themselves, including Lavos and events tied to him in the Time Crash, are protected under TTI as Home World is a splintered and intertwined timeline from Another World from Serge being saved onward.  This allows El Nido to exist and Serge to come into contact with the flame to become the Arbiter.  Kid also exists, but has no reason to travel to El Nido.  The reason Another World does not get sent directly to the DBT is likely due to Serge being the Arbiter and Kid being tied to Schala in the DBT itself.  This could be why the anomaly of two separate timelines was created in this case.  Chronopolis does confrim the existence of a 3rd and 4th timeline by way of Radical Dreamers and Dinopolis, which raises another question however.  Does the timeline split everytime there is a significant change to history, resulting in alternate realities similar to Home World and Another World?  Or is this where the "many worlds" theory comes into play, where every possibility has a reality of its own, and only Another World and Home World are directly connected?  And if that is the case, how would Dinopolis be pulled into Another World prior to the split if they are not already connected to begin with?  This has no bearing on the discussion of how Home World works, but it is a question I ask myself everytime someone calls the split in Cross an anomaly.

No, they can't be versions that failed to beat Home World Lavos, since those versions of them that fought Lavos are still confined in Another World. This also means the past versions of them running around in Home 2300AD don't exist either, since it's post-split. El Nido exists since Chronopolis travel or connection to the past (there's a theory that Chronopolis didn't physically traveled to the past, but rather, it's encased in a time bubble that got connected to the past, so when traveling to the Sea of Eden, you're time traveling to 15400AD or so instead.), their work is TTI protected, regardless of what happens to its 2400AD version anyway. Prevent the Time Crash? Too late, El Nido won't stop existing.

No, splits like Another/Home aren't the norm. Dinopolis and Radical Dreamers are different worlds/dimensions. Not different timelines confined in the same world. The terminology is all over the place since Another and Home are referred as worlds, worlds, and dimensions; but it's more accurate to say that Another and Home share a world, then Dinopolis is its own world with its own timeline, and the same for Radical Dreamers.

As for how Dinopolis could get pulled... well, the Planet/Entity did it, and we honestly know very little about it. It may be have an inter-dimensional presence or connection with itself across the multiverse that allows it to pull things from one world where it exists into another. Not one timeline to another. World/dimension to world/dimension.

By the way, have you read this article?

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ghost_Children.html

It goes on about theorizing about the true nature of the ghost children and what their existence means.

Also, what do you think about the theory this thread is about?  I love our conversation about Home World, but you did not make any mention as to how you feel about Crono, Lucca, and Marle becoming part of Porre in the original post as we got side tracked.  Also do you agree to the possibility of how and why this would take place?

Your theory relies on things that are incorrect, so can't comment on it, honestly. Also, the only evidence that points to them possibly still alive regardless of world is Lucca's letter, which isn't decisive, suffice to say.

About Home World, the way you worded it made you sound like it was made from scratch from creation (by creation I mean creation of the planet itself or the start of all time) and I was talking about why that could not be the case.  I have always implied that Home World splits off of Another world as a "fork".  In fact, you basically just described my entire point in your follow up reply.

As for there being no time travel in the future, I already said I agreed with the notion and saw it as valid in my reply to Kodokami.  Why bother going into detail about it again, when that wasn't even what I was debating against to begin with.  I was arguing Home World would not exist from scratch without time travel at all, and you put a spin on it to make it sound like I was implying something else.  When you say a new timeline is created by scratch, direct quote from you, it is implied that you meant from the beginning of all time and not split from Another World.  It was a simple misunderstanding due to poor wording on your part (for that part of your prior post, the rest was well done).  The only difference between what we are saying at that point would be Crono fighting Lavos in 1999 AD would not happen, which again I already agreed with Kodokami.  It does make a lot more sense that way.

As for the Porre theory being based on incorrect information, no none of it is incorrect.  It is a THEORY based on analysis of in game evidence.  As a theory, I am saying it is POSSIBLE but there is not enough hard evidence to call it fact.  Thats what a theory is...a theory.

So please, tell me what was "incorrect" about the theory.  I even clarify that most of it is open to interpretation, and explain how it would work.  So unless you have something constructive to add other than, "incorrect information" without clarification, it just seems to me you don't like the theory but lack any evidence to disprove it.  There is a big difference between an interpretation of information that cannot be confirmed, and incorrect information.

(sorry if I seem irritated, I am just a but frustrated that we put out two rather drawn out replies to one another based on a misunderstanding when we were for the most part agreeing on the same thing lol.)