Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 484431 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2640 on: April 14, 2009, 03:41:53 am »
Edit: I don't have a problem with real Christians (Open minded, pleasant, accepting people of other faiths). But extremists in any religion are no good for anyone, as you may agree (Nazis, Al Quaida, religious war in general)

National Socialists? That's not a religious groupa. Seems more like political extremists.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2641 on: April 14, 2009, 04:06:07 am »
Yes, the term Nazi is an abbreviation, it comes from National Socialist. But I'm not talking about where they came from. I'm talking about where they went. ie. Holocaust. Radical antisemitism. Which is technically based on religion. (And apparently Hilter had syphilis but that's not the point either) Neo nazis carry the same hate but lack the history AND the war motive completely.

To reiterate, people and groups who are BOTH political extremists AND religious radicals are no good for anyone, at least not when the two overlap.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2642 on: April 14, 2009, 04:11:06 am »
Yes, the term Nazi is an abbreviation, it comes from National Socialist. But I'm not talking about where they came from. I'm talking about where they went. ie. Holocaust. Radical antisemitism. Which is technically based on religion. (And apparently Hilter had syphilis but that's not the point either) Neo nazis carry the same hate but lack the history AND the war motive completely.

To reiterate, people and groups who are BOTH political extremists AND religious radicals are no good for anyone, at least not when the two overlap.

Heh, point taken.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2643 on: April 14, 2009, 11:36:47 am »
All Hallows Eve. Pagan. Stolen by Christians to replace All Saints Day, which used to be in May (and that date was taken from another pagan holiday) and was moved to the end of October/beginning of November by a Pope. It also has roots in the Celtic holiday called Samhain.

Halloween is a supplementation to All Saints Day; it doesn't replace it. I suspect you already know all this, but to be sure: starting from Jewish culture, there used to be a strong tradition in Christianity to begin celebrating Holy Days the night before. As you noted, Halloween is merely a form of "All Hallow's Eve." Which, of course, means the night before All Hallows Day (All Hallows itself being another name for All Saints). All Saints Day is still celebrated, right along side Halloween.

As for being "stolen;" if it was stolen it would have failed to serve its purpose. Christians in the 6th century would indeed attempt to replace pagan holidays with Christian ones. Pope Gregory the Great, for example, specifically wrote to St. Augustine of Canterbury to this very effect. However, the entire intent was to replace the undesirable tradition with a desirable tradition, not to steal. To use an analogy, think of a holiday like a car. The Catholic church would come into an area and find that everyone is driving GM brand horseless carriages. The Church then shipped in a lot of Ford automobiles (or built them onsite) and gave them to the people so that they'd drive something acceptable, instead of the heathen GM things. Calling it "stolen" doesn't accurately reflect the practice. Indeed, from some perspectives, it would have been far better if the Church had merely stolen the holidays, rather than replacing them; as it was, many times the act of replacing resulted in the original celebration being destroyed.

What's funny is that "pagan" doesn't mean anything other than "not Christian".

Actually it means something along the lines of "rural individual", coming from a time period in which Christianity was primarily in cities while non-Christian religions tended to persist in the countryside.

The concepts of witchcraft and the devil came from...pagans!

If one defines Pagan as not-specifically-Christian, then yes. However, the devil is a much-changed carry-over from Jewish tradition, and Jews are often not considered pagans by Christians. This originates in the text of Job specifically, which also happens to be one of, if not the, oldest part of the Jewish Cannon.

Perhaps you are familiar with the story? The Accuser comes before God, God says "Dude, Job there is, like, wicked faithful!," the Accuser responds with "Dude, that's messed; he's just a gold-digger. If you weren't buying him stuff, he'd drop you like brown underwear."

The Hebrew word for "the Accuser" being Hasatan, if memory serves me correctly. And the world devil coming from the Greek word "diabolos" which means the same. I have heard that this started with the Septuagint, but admittedly I haven't read that (much less in the original Greek) so I am not positive.

Since then, yes, the devil has accumulated many "pagan" trappings; sometimes being given the name Beelzebub, for example, which was a local middle east god. Certainly in Christianity he's gone from the original servant-in-good-standing-of-God to foe-of-God, which in turn foreshadowed the Christian tradition of recasting pagan gods in general as demons (the Nordic god Frey comes to mind as a notable example due to the long overlap of the Nordic religion with Christianity and the survival of many contemporary texts). But while changed, it would be improper to claim that the devil is entirely pagan.

They push their beliefs on people (evangelism, ugh!)...

While certainly I agree that their cause, means, and behavior leaves much to be desired, I would whole heartedly disagree with the sentiment that evangelism is inherently bad (or "ugh!" if you will). Though the word has been much abused in recent years, so perhaps we are thinking of different things when we see it?

At its heart, conceptually at least (as opposed to actual implementation), evangelism is altruistic. Believing that one has found something that is good, one then desires to share that goodness with others. Religious individuals are quite like Cassandra in that regard; believing that they know the future, they attempt to save others from certain destruction. They tend to be faced with the Priam's of the world... and the Christian god is certainly less hyperactive than Apollo, so these Cassandra's don't have as firm proof of their blessing and curse as the original.

If one whole heartedly believes something, and believes that such a something is good, I would certainly hope that such a person would attempt to bring others around to their way of thinking. We use evangelism for religion specifically, but the basic concept is a human one. If you believe that all humans aught be treated as free and equal, I would hope you would attempt to convert others to your way of thinking.

Attempting to force one's believe on others is, indeed, undesirable. But merely attempting to convert others to one's way of thinking is at the heart of human discourse.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 11:39:36 am by Thought »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2644 on: April 14, 2009, 01:00:48 pm »
All Hallows Eve. Pagan. Stolen by Christians to replace All Saints Day, which used to be in May (and that date was taken from another pagan holiday) and was moved to the end of October/beginning of November by a Pope. It also has roots in the Celtic holiday called Samhain.

Halloween is a supplementation to All Saints Day; it doesn't replace it. I suspect you already know all this, but to be sure: starting from Jewish culture, there used to be a strong tradition in Christianity to begin celebrating Holy Days the night before. As you noted, Halloween is merely a form of "All Hallow's Eve." Which, of course, means the night before All Hallows Day (All Hallows itself being another name for All Saints). All Saints Day is still celebrated, right along side Halloween.

As for being "stolen;" if it was stolen it would have failed to serve its purpose. Christians in the 6th century would indeed attempt to replace pagan holidays with Christian ones. Pope Gregory the Great, for example, specifically wrote to St. Augustine of Canterbury to this very effect. However, the entire intent was to replace the undesirable tradition with a desirable tradition, not to steal. To use an analogy, think of a holiday like a car. The Catholic church would come into an area and find that everyone is driving GM brand horseless carriages. The Church then shipped in a lot of Ford automobiles (or built them onsite) and gave them to the people so that they'd drive something acceptable, instead of the heathen GM things. Calling it "stolen" doesn't accurately reflect the practice. Indeed, from some perspectives, it would have been far better if the Church had merely stolen the holidays, rather than replacing them; as it was, many times the act of replacing resulted in the original celebration being destroyed.
I only mean stolen in that they took the date and the name and replaced the history of the original holiday. It's like everyone was driving GM brand "Hallow" and it had an exclusive mint green color, but Ford thought they could do it better and released a bunch of mint green cars called the "Hollow", just different enough to not be the same. (I'm reminded of My Cousin Vinny) Edit: also, Pope Gregory was the one who changed the date. Thought that was worth noting.

Quote
What's funny is that "pagan" doesn't mean anything other than "not Christian".

Actually it means something along the lines of "rural individual", coming from a time period in which Christianity was primarily in cities while non-Christian religions tended to persist in the countryside.
I say tom-ay-to you say tom-ah-to, but I get what you're saying. People who study wicken and similar religions today actually take a lot of pride in calling themselves pagan.

Quote
The concepts of witchcraft and the devil came from...pagans!

If one defines Pagan as not-specifically-Christian, then yes. However, the devil is a much-changed carry-over from Jewish tradition, and Jews are often not considered pagans by Christians. This originates in the text of Job specifically, which also happens to be one of, if not the, oldest part of the Jewish Cannon.

Perhaps you are familiar with the story? The Accuser comes before God, God says "Dude, Job there is, like, wicked faithful!," the Accuser responds with "Dude, that's messed; he's just a gold-digger. If you weren't buying him stuff, he'd drop you like brown underwear."
That's comedic gold right there! I didn't expect a joke to be implanted in your statement. Props.

Quote
The Hebrew word for "the Accuser" being Hasatan, if memory serves me correctly. And the world devil coming from the Greek word "diabolos" which means the same. I have heard that this started with the Septuagint, but admittedly I haven't read that (much less in the original Greek) so I am not positive.

Since then, yes, the devil has accumulated many "pagan" trappings; sometimes being given the name Beelzebub, for example, which was a local middle east god. Certainly in Christianity he's gone from the original servant-in-good-standing-of-God to foe-of-God, which in turn foreshadowed the Christian tradition of recasting pagan gods in general as demons (the Nordic god Frey comes to mind as a notable example due to the long overlap of the Nordic religion with Christianity and the survival of many contemporary texts). But while changed, it would be improper to claim that the devil is entirely pagan.
Agreed, as I said the concept came from pagans, not that the devil is entirely pagan.
Quote
They push their beliefs on people (evangelism, ugh!)...

While certainly I agree that their cause, means, and behavior leaves much to be desired, I would whole heartedly disagree with the sentiment that evangelism is inherently bad (or "ugh!" if you will). Though the word has been much abused in recent years, so perhaps we are thinking of different things when we see it?

At its heart, conceptually at least (as opposed to actual implementation), evangelism is altruistic.
Emphasis on "conceptually", because evangelists definitely think they're doing the right thing, so to speak. It just doesn't always end up that way. (Watch the film 'Jesus Camp' as this point is shown in great detail.)

Quote

Believing that one has found something that is good, one then desires to share that goodness with others. Religious individuals are quite like Cassandra in that regard; believing that they know the future, they attempt to save others from certain destruction. They tend to be faced with the Priam's of the world... and the Christian god is certainly less hyperactive than Apollo, so these Cassandra's don't have as firm proof of their blessing and curse as the original.

If one whole heartedly believes something, and believes that such a something is good, I would certainly hope that such a person would attempt to bring others around to their way of thinking. We use evangelism for religion specifically, but the basic concept is a human one. If you believe that all humans aught be treated as free and equal, I would hope you would attempt to convert others to your way of thinking.

Attempting to force one's believe on others is, indeed, undesirable. But merely attempting to convert others to one's way of thinking is at the heart of human discourse.

Again, I almost agree. But I want to point out the difference between conversion and understanding. I would rather people understand why I think and feel the way I do than convert people to think and feel the way I do, and the real difference is intent. To convert is to assume that Jon (as a human) is better or has it better than Jane (also human) and that if only Jane would change, she could have it better too, when in reality, both are just people who have a set opinion of things and a set of beliefs that are entirely valid, and using the same logic, there's no reason that Jane shouldn't try to change Jon. Even though they may be different, they are equal, they just need to understand and change if they choose.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 01:04:18 pm by Mr Bekkler »

KebreI

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2645 on: April 14, 2009, 01:06:01 pm »
My work has us on during Presidents Day and Labor Day but 4/20 is a holiday off for every one.


 :picardno

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2646 on: April 14, 2009, 01:15:20 pm »
Edit: also, Pope Gregory was the one who changed the date. Thought that was worth noting.

Yup, but different Pope Gregory. That was Pope Gregory III, whereas Gregory the Great was the first Pope with that name.

That's comedic gold right there! I didn't expect a joke to be implanted in your statement. Props.

I'm long winded and fairly dry; I occasionally try to throw in a few jokes to make my posts not so tedious to read ;)

My work has us on during Presidents Day and Labor Day but 4/20 is a holiday off for every one.

Really? Wow. Mind if I ask where you work?
And here I used to think working every holiday but "Cesar Chavez Day" was random.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2647 on: April 14, 2009, 01:48:25 pm »
My work has us on during Presidents Day and Labor Day but 4/20 is a holiday off for every one.

Well, that's a bit biased to be celebrating Hitler's birthday but not Lincoln's or Washington's.

Or perhaps your boss just has a thing for marijuana?

chrono eric

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2648 on: April 14, 2009, 08:47:13 pm »
Hooray for delayed responses. I've been busy working / playing my new x-box.

I think you might have misunderstood; my intent was to illustrate that anti-anthropocentric views are equally invalid as anthropocentric (woo, learned a new word) ones. To put it simply, importance is inherently subjective; it is dependent on the specific circumstances and relationships between entities. Any objective criterion is inherently flawed.

While anthrpocentrism may be egotistical, the reverse may well be false humility. One overvalues, but the other undervalues.

At the root of it all you are correct, and we don't disagree. Except that I deny the existence of any objective value whatsoever, placing all value that exists as a result of a subjective observer. As such an argument in favor of anthropocentrism is not equal to one against it, because the former requires you to either accept that objective value exists or to accept that the subjective value that defines the anthropocentric worldview comes from humans themselves or from a god. The latter argument claims no existence of such objective value at all, no signficance to subjective value at all, and holds the position that all life is equally meaningless.

The lesbians may be the vampires that he fights but I'm pretty sure he saves them. Either way there's Jesus, lesbians, vampires, and a luchador (which kinda connects it with the Chrono theme! Thanks Greco, you came in handy for once!) and it's supposed  to be a comedy. I can't wait for it, honestly.


I think my friend has this movie (I'm pretty sure it's this movie), and I had been meaning to get drunk and watch it sometime. Or maybe it's Zombie Christ or something. I'm pretty sure the blurb on the back included both zombies and vampires. Hmmm.

Shee

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2649 on: April 15, 2009, 02:09:45 am »
the gripe

Waiting.  of course it's a given with the industry I've chosen, but it's still lame.  Got a callback for a lead in a  feature film and rocked it.  They want me and this other guy paired together as the leads, but he might not be able to make the entire shoot, so I don't know if he can, or if he can't what that means for me. 

Also, had to host at the open mic tonight, which means I get 4 minutes of material for everyone that just wants the show to start, then I sit through it all and deal with late/stupid people.  Ahhh...show biz.

ZaichikArky

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2650 on: April 16, 2009, 06:48:23 pm »
This is interesting, I've never seen a "bitch about something" thread turn into a detailed philosophical debate about religion...

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2651 on: April 16, 2009, 06:53:03 pm »
The Chrono Compendium - Where 95% of all threads turn into a detailed philosophical debate about religion

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2652 on: April 17, 2009, 12:10:35 am »
The Chrono Compendium - Where 95% of all threads turn into a detailed philosophical debate about religion

Hey wai-da-min-ut!

Shee

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2653 on: April 17, 2009, 01:29:47 am »
Read for the producers.  Went well.  Didn't get cast, though.  Gaaaaawwwdammit.  So it goes.

FaustWolf

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #2654 on: April 17, 2009, 02:31:27 am »
'Tis the same for any field of work, Shee. Don't feel bad, sometimes it isn't about talent as much as it is about connections. Although...that idea makes me feel bad.
 :picardno