Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development

[Zaperking]

Katar? Like Chakrams?

[Hadriel]

No, a katar is a weapon worn on the hand rather than thrown.  Imagine Wolverine's claws, and now take out the claws and put in a single blade instead.  Voila; you've got a katar.

[Chrono'99]

Katars are also the weapons used by Kiros in FF8 (his 2 blades are mistranslated as "Katal") and a class of weapon in AD&D (also called "punching dagger").

[Lordchander]

Im guessing its called a punching dagger be cause you litterally punch with ur hand instead of slashing (beacuase a katar, being only a one-bladed claw wouldn't be that effective in combat). In fact, i have never ever heard of a katar before. Forgive me on this next bit beacuse i only just entered the thread, but did u make the katar up or not?

[Zaperking]

No, a katar is a weapon worn on the hand rather than thrown.  Imagine Wolverine's claws, and now take out the claws and put in a single blade instead.  Voila; you've got a katar.

Yeah, That's what I was thinking off. Not all Chakrams are thrown Oo

[Shadow_Dragon]

I got bored with reading the entire post (I got up to page 16 I think), so I'll post what I have to say now

However, after spending so much time reading replies I've forgotten what I had to say about the plot and stuff...

Anyway, is it possible to put all the plot into one post? I printed what was in that seperate post for plot, but that was before I realized there were various posts of plot here...

Is Glenn supposed to have new weapons besides the Masamune? Maybe instead of having him lose the Masamune to be replaced by new weapons Melchior could upgrade it somehow, maybe by infusing it with magic, or reinforcing the blade with new material or something (maybe you can obtain materials like in CC)

Also, I never really used Lucca except when you had to, so the topic of her weapons never crossed my mind. How come no one else (besides Porre at this point) in the world can wield a gun, yet they can manufacture them to sell to Lucca? I think it'd make more sense if she created her own guns, maybe with the same kind of material system...

Who is Atropos? Was he/she/it in CT and I just don't remember him/her/it?

Alright, on to what I remember of the questions I had concerning the plot:
How can Chronopolis be saved from alterations in time? I'm sorry to say, but that does sound like a novice fanfic thing that was made up for convenience more than anything else. If the altered past made Chronopolis built a mile away, and the one in the original timeline was immune to the past, would there suddenly be two chronopolises (I assume '-polis' is Greek so what's the plural?)?

How would Belthasar recognize Crono and co.? The only way he'd remember them is if he were the guru that they had to save on top of that mountain... and I don't remember if he was... He's not the same Belthasar that put his memory into the Nu and granted Crono and co. the Epoch

Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)

How is Belthasar able to communicate with the crew? Walkie-talkie that can send radio waves (are those what they use?) into the past? Yeah, right. I think it'd only make sense if he uses the Temporal Catch thing to take them into the future, talk to them, then send them back. Or, he could just go back and forth in time whenever he needs to talk to them.. However, whenever Belthasar talks with the crew I find it overly simplified. I'll find and post an example later, but it seems as if Belthasar talks and acts like he exists in the same time as Crono and co, but he doesn't. If King Zeal was erased from history, Belthasar should have no idea who he is. Also, he should be able to talk about stuff like "If I hadn't interfered with the past, you'd go here, but you'll walk into a trap if you do" or w/e...


I think that's all I have to say for now...

[Shinrin]

Katars are also the weapons used by Kiros in FF8 (his 2 blades are mistranslated as "Katal") and a class of weapon in AD&D (also called "punching dagger").

Katars are used by the Assassin Class on Ragnrok Online as well. making them take two hits per slash.

[Hadriel]

I got bored with reading the entire post (I got up to page 16 I think), so I'll post what I have to say now

However, after spending so much time reading replies I've forgotten what I had to say about the plot and stuff...

Anyway, is it possible to put all the plot into one post? I printed what was in that seperate post for plot, but that was before I realized there were various posts of plot here...

Is Glenn supposed to have new weapons besides the Masamune? Maybe instead of having him lose the Masamune to be replaced by new weapons Melchior could upgrade it somehow, maybe by infusing it with magic, or reinforcing the blade with new material or something (maybe you can obtain materials like in CC)

Also, I never really used Lucca except when you had to, so the topic of her weapons never crossed my mind. How come no one else (besides Porre at this point) in the world can wield a gun, yet they can manufacture them to sell to Lucca? I think it'd make more sense if she created her own guns, maybe with the same kind of material system...

Who is Atropos? Was he/she/it in CT and I just don't remember him/her/it?

Alright, on to what I remember of the questions I had concerning the plot:
How can Chronopolis be saved from alterations in time? I'm sorry to say, but that does sound like a novice fanfic thing that was made up for convenience more than anything else. If the altered past made Chronopolis built a mile away, and the one in the original timeline was immune to the past, would there suddenly be two chronopolises (I assume '-polis' is Greek so what's the plural?)?

How would Belthasar recognize Crono and co.? The only way he'd remember them is if he were the guru that they had to save on top of that mountain... and I don't remember if he was... He's not the same Belthasar that put his memory into the Nu and granted Crono and co. the Epoch

Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)

How is Belthasar able to communicate with the crew? Walkie-talkie that can send radio waves (are those what they use?) into the past? Yeah, right. I think it'd only make sense if he uses the Temporal Catch thing to take them into the future, talk to them, then send them back. Or, he could just go back and forth in time whenever he needs to talk to them.. However, whenever Belthasar talks with the crew I find it overly simplified. I'll find and post an example later, but it seems as if Belthasar talks and acts like he exists in the same time as Crono and co, but he doesn't. If King Zeal was erased from history, Belthasar should have no idea who he is. Also, he should be able to talk about stuff like "If I hadn't interfered with the past, you'd go here, but you'll walk into a trap if you do" or w/e...


I think that's all I have to say for now...

1) Other enemies in CE can and do use firearms.  Porre just has more of them.  A LOT more.  The Lucca weapon creation system sounds pretty cool, but I'm not sure whether or not we can implement that.  But rest assured that you won't be finding random guns in 65MBC.

2) Atropos is Robo's honey robo-bunny.  She was in CT; she was killed in the Lavos timeline, but resurrected when he was defeated.

3) Chronopolis can be saved from alterations in time by the same mechanism Lavos used; creating a Pocket Dimension.  For the majority of the game, that's where Chronopolis is.

4) Belthasar obviously recognizes the original team in Chrono Cross; one would assume that due to his equipment he eventually found out that Lavos had been destroyed.  Other than that, we can perhaps incorporate an odd meeting of sorts into the first dialogue exchange between them.  In fact, that would make it more reasonable, and cooler to boot.

5) If the royal kinsmen aren't enough, the team's highly advanced weaponry lends credence to their tale; they do have concrete evidence that they have been to other times.  They obtained the Masamune, for one thing, and they have a robot with GIANT FREAKING LASER GUNS walking around as a second.  Serge is probably less credible than the original team, in fact.  The only things he has going for him are the fact that the Dragoons are on his tail for seemingly no reason and that he died 10 years ago in the other dimension.  However, some people will in fact frown upon the tales of time travel, only lending respect to the team because they can fight extremely well.

6) The comlink opens a contained Gate and sends transmissions through it.  So essentially, yes.

[Shadow_Dragon]

5) If the royal kinsmen aren't enough, the team's highly advanced weaponry lends credence to their tale; they do have concrete evidence that they have been to other times.  They obtained the Masamune, for one thing, and they have a robot with GIANT FREAKING LASER GUNS walking around as a second.  Serge is probably less credible than the original team, in fact.  The only things he has going for him are the fact that the Dragoons are on his tail for seemingly no reason and that he died 10 years ago in the other dimension.  However, some people will in fact frown upon the tales of time travel, only lending respect to the team because they can fight extremely well.

Lucca could build a teleportation machine; I doubt lasers wouldn't be too hard for her

I'll look at the plot stuff that I printed out earlier tonight or tomorrow to find examples of what I was saying where Belthasar shouldn't be acting like he's in their time

Also, how exactly do pocket dimensions work? Is it a completely empty dimension except for one thing (Chronopolis or Lavos)? They have to have a timeline on thier own, so whenever Crono and co. come back to Chronopolis do they always come back directly after they leave (from the Chronopolean view)? If they don't, I don't see how you'd be able to determine when they do come back... Maybe I'm not making any sense, so I guess later I'll try to explain what I mean more thoroughly


PS: I doubt lasers would be too hard for her
stupid double-negative

[Hadriel]

From the Chronopolean point of view, yes, they would come back as soon as they left.  Belthasar isn't in their time; that's why they have the little uber time phones.

Lasers might not be too hard for Lucca, but a fully sentient robot would be.  If you'll recall, Lucca's thesis on artificial intelligence was written after the defeat of Lavos.

[teh Schala]

Not to mention that if you go to Lucca's house immediately after returning from 600 AD in the beginning, but before taking Marle to the castle and going on trial, you'll find Lucca puzzling over how to build a "bipedal humanoid robot."  She's completely stumped.

Also, about pocket dimensions: They exist outside of time and are unaffected by it, but instead they use something called "time-error," or "time-offset."  (BTW, the End Of Time is a pocket dimension too.)

No, actually, from the Chronopolean's view, Crono and co wouldn't come back as soon as they left because of time-error.  If I'm at the End Of Time, in its pocket dimension and hop through a Gate to 600 AD, and stay in 600 AD for 5 minutes and then go back through the Gate, from Gaspar's point of view at the End Of Time, I would be gone for 5 minutes.  Even if time doesn't flow at the EoT, time-error does.  Lavos' pocket dimension works the same way too.  It's unaffected by time, but time-error DOES flow there.   So if I kill Lavos' shell in 1000 AD and then hop back to 600 AD, even though I'm going back in time, time-error hasn't changed, so in 600 AD the shell is still dead.

Does that make sense? =P  LOL...

Also about the point on proving that their stories were true...  They have a time machine!  And as I recall it's supposed to be enshrined beneath the Manoria Cathedral in Crimson Echoes, so the proof is quite solid.

About Belthasar: No, he is not hte one they had to save on the Mountain of Woe.  Yes, he IS the one who built the time machine.  In the Lavos timeline, he arrived in a ruined future.  But when Crono and co destroyed Lavos, it caused Belthasar to arrive in a perfect future.  Looking through historical records, he found records of Crono and co's deeds and thus knew that they destroyed Lavos.

[Zaperking]

I got bored with reading the entire post (I got up to page 16 I think), so I'll post what I have to say now

However, after spending so much time reading replies I've forgotten what I had to say about the plot and stuff...

Anyway, is it possible to put all the plot into one post? I printed what was in that seperate post for plot, but that was before I realized there were various posts of plot here...

Is Glenn supposed to have new weapons besides the Masamune? Maybe instead of having him lose the Masamune to be replaced by new weapons Melchior could upgrade it somehow, maybe by infusing it with magic, or reinforcing the blade with new material or something (maybe you can obtain materials like in CC)

Also, I never really used Lucca except when you had to, so the topic of her weapons never crossed my mind. How come no one else (besides Porre at this point) in the world can wield a gun, yet they can manufacture them to sell to Lucca? I think it'd make more sense if she created her own guns, maybe with the same kind of material system...

Who is Atropos? Was he/she/it in CT and I just don't remember him/her/it?

Alright, on to what I remember of the questions I had concerning the plot:
How can Chronopolis be saved from alterations in time? I'm sorry to say, but that does sound like a novice fanfic thing that was made up for convenience more than anything else. If the altered past made Chronopolis built a mile away, and the one in the original timeline was immune to the past, would there suddenly be two chronopolises (I assume '-polis' is Greek so what's the plural?)?

How would Belthasar recognize Crono and co.? The only way he'd remember them is if he were the guru that they had to save on top of that mountain... and I don't remember if he was... He's not the same Belthasar that put his memory into the Nu and granted Crono and co. the Epoch

Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)

How is Belthasar able to communicate with the crew? Walkie-talkie that can send radio waves (are those what they use?) into the past? Yeah, right. I think it'd only make sense if he uses the Temporal Catch thing to take them into the future, talk to them, then send them back. Or, he could just go back and forth in time whenever he needs to talk to them.. However, whenever Belthasar talks with the crew I find it overly simplified. I'll find and post an example later, but it seems as if Belthasar talks and acts like he exists in the same time as Crono and co, but he doesn't. If King Zeal was erased from history, Belthasar should have no idea who he is. Also, he should be able to talk about stuff like "If I hadn't interfered with the past, you'd go here, but you'll walk into a trap if you do" or w/e...


I think that's all I have to say for now...

1) Atrapos is Robo's hunny that we had to kill because Mother Brain controlled her if you wanted to get Robo's best weapon.

2) King Guardia knows because Lucca in the true ending got Doan, Kino King Guardia from 600AD to come and then King Guardia realised etc. etc.

Now for my own questions:

Is Chronopolis powered by the Frozen Flame? It can't really sustain a pocket dimension without that much power.
Do they know what the FF really is? Does Lavos control Chronopolis in a way? You do know that if it does, the same time crash thing should happen again.

[teh Schala]

My first inclination is to say that no, Chronopolis is not powered by the Frozen Flame, but to even say that I need to ask a question too...  Where did the FF come from?  I mean, I know what it is and I know it "came from" Lavos, but how did it get separated from him and stuck on that tower or whatever?  Is it even feasible that the Chronopoleans could possess the FF?

Also, I think Sun Stone energy would probably be powerful enough to sustain Chronopolis' pocket dimension.  Although Lavos' energy is much stronger, certain quotes from Zealians imply that Zeal was in the sky even before Lavos' power was discovered.  They mention their Sun Keep power source that has been lying dormant since Lavos' energy was discovered, etc.  A Sun Stone (or perhaps multiple Sun Stones) may very well be able to power Chronopolis.

[Hadriel]

Well, solar power holds most of the ecosystem on this planet together.  A Sun Stone is essentially a solar cell on steroids.  Geothermal energy was likely a large component of ancient Zeal.

[teh Schala]

So you're verifying that Sun Stones could support Chronopolis?

Also, that post right there could tell us a lot about how the city of Calasperan should look, if we delve into that a bit more...