Chrono Compendium

Marbule Gallery - Completed Fan Creations => Crimson Echoes => Crimson Echoes Plot Construction => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on December 28, 2004, 01:05:48 am

Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 28, 2004, 01:05:48 am
This is my vision of Chrono Break, an intermediary between Trigger and Cross following the main characters. Hadriel, Symmetry, and Claado Shou have assisted with this plot. I intend for this to become a mod for Chrono Trigger someday, and an epic of the same scope. However, at the moment Temporal Flux is still in its early stages, and I can't really commit to doing this on my own. However, I can place the plot thus far out in the open for scrutiny and improvement.

Storyline points are the same thing as in CT; like "The Rare Red Rock" and "The Final Battle". Keep in mind that sidequests are cool.

--Keep in mind this was written hastily and roughly, so internet vernacular may be dotted throughout. Of special commendation is the line 'Belthasar was crapping himself with wtfs.'--

Here it is.

Before I begin, here is the overall theme:

Lavos sits critically wounded in the DBT; the Frozen Flame still points to it, but is silenced without an Arbiter. Originally, King Zeal died/disappeared because he messed with the Flame back in Zeal in the previous timelines. Now that Lavos is dead, the Flame needs an Arbiter; King Zeal fits the bill, since the Flame can't do anything and use its power without a commander. Lavos still wants revenge on humanity for destroying it. Thus, it communicates to the Flame; whenever King Zeal has a fancy, such as "What would 1000 A.D. be like with wars n stuff loalz," the Flame can use it to translate temporal changes. Introduction of chaos and strife pleases Lavos. Crono and the gang gradually reverse these problems; King Zeal is annoyed and begins messing with them. Still, nothing is in place to stop Lavos, and no one but King Zeal even knows it still exists.

This all changes after an experience that Crono survives; King Zeal intended to kill him, and thus told him of the Lavos's existence. He also lets it out that the Flame has convinced him to bind with Lavos as the Arbiter, making a prototype for what we know as the Time Devourer. Now that Crono has told Belthasar that the Lavos exists, it is threatened for the first time. This is when the game gets rapid and tough. The Devourer pulls out all the stops in its effort to stop the crew. Ultimately a confrontation arises with King Zeal, and the Frozen Flame. The party suffers losses, but believes they have succeeded. Time sort of exacts revenge on them in its own course, and Belthasar recognizes the threat still exists, and later creates Project Kid. Thus, this links Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross.

Note: Reference the RivenCrimse in the Vanguard Post.

~

Storyline 1 - Prologue - Castle Meeting

The year is 1002 A.D. Crono and Marle are married, though they're still innocent and mostly the same. Life hasn't changed much; things are peaceful. Marle wakes Crono up in the expanded house, and informs them that he, as chief knight, must attend a diplomatic meeting between King Guardia and two Porre diplomats. Crono must first run some errands. Lucca arrives with a newfangled car, and they ride to the castle, accidentally trespassing on an Imp's lawn. After a bunch of political bullcrap that Lucca and Marle trade running commentary on and that reveals the present political situation in the western half of the planet, one of the Porre servants begins to feel sick and excuses himself, followed by a friend.  The Trio is suspicious, and Crono gets up and follows them alone.  When he does, he finds that their suspicions were correct - the man is not ill at all, but rather is plotting against Guardia. The idea was to kill the Chancellor by requesting private audience with him; a pocket of soldiers hiding in the Dorino forest would then swoop in amidst the confusion and blockade Guardia Castle with few casualties. The first runs off, and Crono easily dispatches the other. The party unites and rushes out to Zenan Bridge, finding Porre troops approaching en masse. He fights them back somewhat, and continues to seek the Porre agent, who runs onto the Denadoro Mts. Porre begins shelling the mountain with napalm, an invention Lucca hasn't even released yet, and they retreat to the Masamune cave. Its remaining magical aura will allow Lucca to use an incomplete Time Egg to free herself.

Storyline 2 - The New Future

It backfires like no one's business, sending the party into a massive distortion. Cut to Magus in 11998 B.C. Magus is stumbling along a high mountain range, in a fierce blizzard. He recalls the words of the Elder of Last Village..."Indeed, the sea level has dropped, and a new mountain range has emerged on the horizon. However, it is very dangerous, as while the rest of the world is warming, these mountains still suffer terrible weather." Magus coughs a few times, and finally falls to the icy ground. In 2301 A.D., the party find they are in a strange building; the room is closely guarded. Eventually, they are released, finding Belthasar there. He is the director of this facility, called Chronopolis, and was testing his new Temporal Catch system. The rooms in Chronopolis include the Medical Facility, the Chrono Compendium, the Temporal Catch, the Dispatch Chamber, the Observatory, and the central directory. Belthasar asks how the party came to this era, though he is happy to see them; he informs them that according to his observations, the politics are heating up in their time, but that it shall all pan out. The player can visit some of 2302 A.D. at this point, and speak with a few residents.

It is noted that the existence of the Central Regime allows Belthasar the necessary resources and guise to operate Chronopolis under, and that the Central Regime came about due to an explosion in science that suddenly allowed widespread destruction and advances. Such was the technology that a world government's formation was sped up through direct fear of use of this power.

Robo works at Chronopolis with Atropos, so they can visit him, but not recruit him quite yet. After visiting, Belthasar informs the party that while their Dispatch technology is not finished, he can afford them a one-way trip back to 1001 A.D....to find the world under attack.

Storyline 3 - Darkness Ascendant

The Porre military has marched up through Zenan and is launching an assault on the kingdom, while Medina and Choras have gotten involved. They immediately wonder 'wtf.' They fight a few battles, whatnot, as Porre has recruited Mystics and stuff. They manage to beat them back, before Belthasar calls in. He tells them that something has changed time, and that they must immediately report to Chronopolis. The gang decide to ignore orders, however, and stop the Porre assault. They fight battles directly in Porre and immediately confront the individual known as General Montcrief. When Montcrief is destroyed, the Porrean assassin returns; before Montcrief dies, he directs the assassin to kill Crono, rather than just follow it. Stuff happens; the party seems to die but time's rewound. The assassin is nowhere in sight, and the world is back to normal.

Storyline 4 - Ephemeral Time

Belthasar instructs them to come to Chronopolis. They must first use the Epoch, which is stored in a crypt in the new Cathedral where Lucca believed it would be safe. They go down two flights and find what should be the crypt in which the Epoch's stored; however the room is in a state of temporal flux and appears to be an amalgation of weird architecture. They kill some fake boss and it changes to normal; they then come under attack, and fight a big boss battle with the assassin, who escapes, but they make it in (still only Crono, Marle, Lucca) and get there. The future, meanwhile, has been encircled in clouds, save for Chronopolis, which has a generator that can shield the facility from changes in time just in case. It has formed a temporary Pocket Dimension encircling Chronopolis. Belthasar can't figure it out, but there are problem areas where really crappy stuff is going wrong in time. He admonishes the party to recruit the old heroes and save them from this stuff so that they can launch a counteroffensive agianst..whatever's doing this. First, the team must get the secondary generators back online for Chronopolis. So they go to get secondary generators online, and Robo and Atropos accompany. Temporal fluxes abound and some baddies come; one injures Atropos severely, but the party succeeds.

So Atropos gets axed for awhile, and Robo's very said, but since Lucca and Robo are united, he feels like he needs to make a difference again. Belthasar warns the party that the Entity  may or may not be on their side in his tasks, but he has faith in them. Chronopolis becomes the new End of Time/waiting area, as the dispatch Chamber can susbtitute characters in the three man party like the EoT used to. Now, they're given the directive to find the old team. First is Magus, who Belthasar is confident is still in the Dark Ages, looking for Schala. Before they leave in the Epoch, they are told to visit the armory, where Melchior awaits. Melchior tells the party that Belthasar brought him out of 1002 A.D. himself, and that he knows not what terrible things are going on. Melchior gives them some new equipment. So they go to 11,998 B.C., where Magus is located.

Storyline 5 - Wind of Ruin

They come to Last Village, where Alfador still chills with the villagers, and wahtnot. Elder tells them to search the new mountain range to the West, far on the horizon. So they get there, and immediately they're fighting some pretty big baddies. After CML or Robo get past the first area of the mountain, cuts to Magus on the ground. He says..."The wind...I will...never..." Then bang, flashbacks begin. Some attendants show Janus Zeal his room. He runs in a little, and then runs back to his mother, saying "Mommy!" The attendants laugh. Next, we see Queen Zeal and attendants in the hall of the Mammon Machine; she pushes Janus back and tells him to get away and go play somewhere. Alright, and then we go back to the gang, who fight some more baddies. We see a young Magus in his teens, surrounded by Mystics and Flea. Flea taunts Magus excessively, but the teenage Magus suddenly arcs a lightning bolt at him. He's about to punish Magus, but Ozzie walks in and says "heh, its a good thing he's gettin better."

The next cutscene shows Magus on a pedestal, with Ozzie. Magus doesn't actually speak, just faces the crowd, a ton of freakin Mystics all saluting. Ozzie says "It is the will of the Magus that we blockade Porre and Dorino! Go! We must capture the continent!" Meanwhile, we see a short pan of Denadoro Mts and the cave, and cut back to the army cutscene, to imply Magus is only doing this for the Masamune. He doesn't care about the Mystic War, just having them do his dirty work. Cut back to Crono owning people. And the very last cutscene shows Magus, alone in the darkness. Frog fades in next to him, in his mind..."Is that all thou hath?" He then sees a sparkle, and Schala's face. Fade back to the party. They finally find Magus, but he's only on his knees on the ground, sort of almost gone crazy. Tthey're about to rescue him, but you know it, a boss battle. This boss is going to be "one of the ancient ones," maybe a legendary beast passed down in legend to the modern day. So they fight this idiot and bring Magus back. Magus is just totally out of it. So they leave him to recuperate in Chronopolis. Belthasar then notifies the party that he has an increasing concern for Ayla, now that the blizzards have begun.

Storyline 6 - Shadow of the Entity

They go to 64,999,998 B.C. and they find the villages completely deserted, save for some robust, foolhardy people who continue to try and live topside. They know nothing about Ayla, and speak in spite about her.   There are still reptites and other creatures alive. But they're dying out rapidly, so they're attacking like all hell to try and get access to the shelters the humans have secured. The lava fields cooled, and humans swooped into the warm caves. These creatures repeatedly try to break into these shelters, and are relentless in their attacks. Crono has to fight a few before he can get into Ioka. They learn that Kino met a warrior's end. Regardless, everyone tells the party that Ayla has gone on some magnificent spirtual journey to save everyone, as she was informed about an artifact by a "strange man." No one can really tell teh party what exactly they're doing. Belthasar comes in with some rumors and ancient legends, but nothing confirmed. He advises the party check the Lost Village, or that village that sat below Singing Mountain in the Prerelease. So they check around Lost Village, finding some pretty bad mutations and stuff, but eventually they nail it -- stone tablets.

They pick up these tablets, and Robo (or if he's not around, Belthasar) translates them. They speak of the highest holy artifact of the Reptites -- the Dragon Tooth. It was kept for generations, but now left unguarded as the Reptites begin to die out. It also speaks of huge guards and stuff. Now the Iokans explained that Ayla was doing this to try and stop the cold weather, or save her people. She was seeking this holy artifact. Crono and them are like "omfg, Ayla's gonna get her ass kicked" cause the kicker is, Ayla's pregnant. so they pursue her into Singing Mountain, fight some baddies. Eventually they find Ayla, but she passed out just before reaching the Tooth. They take Ayla and the Tooth back to ioka, and tell everyone to take shelter and prepare for the long haul. Ayla is sad she can't accompany the party, but they tell her she absolutely needs to have those babies. Back in the future, the Dragon Tooth, which has strong living/necromancic properties, allows Magus to quickly regain consciousnsess. Belthasar tells the party that he's narrowed down his options in pinpointing the source of this problems, but its still difficult as all hell. He gives the party teh assignment for Frog, but Magus intervenes loudly. He begins making his way for the door, but is stopped by the party, who ask him wtf is going on. Magus is still a little under the weather so he's more talkative. through some persuasion by belthasar, he tellst he party whats going on. While he was on the verge of death, and almost in total harmony with the Black Wind, he felt Schala. Belthasar immediately starts crapping himself with wtfs, like the Doc on Back to the Future when you mention changing time, but no one can change the will of Magus. So the party reason and say "Well we're going anyway; who knows, we might find some clues as to what's messing with time." They depart in the Epoch.

Storyline 7

It is noted at this point that the Dragon Tooth was later forged into the Hero's Medal. Belthasar allows them to journey by Epoch to 11,998 B.C. By Magus's advice, hey go beneath the waves, to the ruins of the Black Omen/Ocean Palace, which crashed. They can't take the main route in, though, and most of the architecture has been ruined. He senses Schala, but its weird;  they're fighting their way through, but they notice odd stuff. The place looks like its been broken into already. Magus notes that defense points he observed being constructed while he oversaw the project as the Prophet have been destroyed, like sealed doors being opened. Eventually they come to the antechamber of the main hall, and find this huge funerary pedestal. The remains of Queen Zeal are inside. Right now, Belthasar breaks in to say "what? She was killed atop the black Omen." As they enter the main hall, a voice says "Go away..." the party notes how this voice seems to get all up inside their heads. There, at the head of the chamber, is the Mammon Machine, once again; its ruins. Hhowever, several wires protrude from beneath it, it is hooked up to a capsule behind it. As the party approaches it, it actives, and immediately opens up a huge gate.

A Lavos spawn emerges. This is a pretty weird Lavos Spawn. After its defeated, the Mammon Machine cracks, and the party turns to escape the crumbling Palace. But as they turn to run, they hear another voice. They turn back, and see that the capsule has broken. Schala has fallen to the floor, completely drained of her energy. Meanwhile, the Mammon Machine cracks, and gates start opening and closing all over the place. So they grab Schala and start heading for the exit. As the Mammon Machine's temporal distortions are preventing Belthasar from doing any kind of extraction from that time and place. Just as they reach the exit, a totally black figure appears. He says "This was not supposed to be..." Magus volunteers to hold this idiot off if the others will JUST SAVE HIS SISTER PLZZZZZ. So you fight him for awhile, and Magus's theme plays. You get the message that the other two are about to leave. So Magus does some badass sprite thingy or something, a new move no one has seen. He makes it out just in time. Well, a big explosion happens beneath the Ocean, and a light shines to the sky. They get back to Chronopolis, and belthasar notes that he's been somewaht able to bring his own time period into control. Schala and Magus need some time alone to discuss things, so they retire to a room there. The party can now check out 2302 A.D.

Storyline 8

Someone came and stirred up the Mystics back to ill-feelings agianst the heroes in 602 A.D., and old leaders have emerged. Ozzie, Slash, and Flea are missing, but this has nonetheless led to widespread war. Though Glenn, unspeakably wise thanks to his experiences, has struggled to retire and lay up the Masamune in Guardia Castle for permanent interring, he has been ultimately forced into service by the entire kingdom, who hail him as the greatest hero in the kingdom's history and believe he can swiftly end the conflict. Unfortunately, the nature of the invasion has caused a bloodbath. The party arrives to find him engaged in an unparalleled battle on the north plains, near Dorino, which has been severely ravaged. Glenn has killed hundreds. Crono helps him out, but Glenn quickly spurs off after the battle; the party attempts to follow, but the situation at Dorino is deplorable. They assist with their recovery for awhile. When they finally go up to Guardia to find out what's going on with Glenn, they find him collapsed in the Cathedral, sprawled before the altar. A huge crowd has gathered; Crono forces his way up to the fallen knight, who appears to have passed out. They cannot wake him from this state, so they call in Magus (unless he's already there). Magus tries to shake him with pointed speech; at last Glenn draws his weapon, at which he comes to his senses. He immediately begins to brood, and it is made known that he has lost the Masamune.

Storyline 9

Glenn eventually regains his fortitude once the party tells him what caused the Mystic revolt, and the other adverse effects raging through time. He vows to quest with the troop, but on the condition that they retrieve the Masamune; this is almost a moot point to the party, who laugh, as they had already planned to do so. Glenn has vital knowledge concerning the enemy, so he must attend; they sojourn to the desert, and find Robo critically wounded. They repair him, and he informs them that on a spot not far from here, several Mystics erupted from the ground in force, leading the party to believe their headquarters is underground, where Retinite used to lurk. The Forest reappears in 1000 A.D. now. Belthasar runs a thorough scan of the desert, eventually finding the old cave structure that leads to the surface; the party enters, and fights a few battles. Eventually, they reach a Sealed Door. They immediately question how an object of Zealian origin would be here, much less a highly advanced defense! With the pendant, they're able to infiltrate the complex, eventually entering a huge tunnel leading down (at this point, the scenery becomes lava flows, akin to Singing Mountain). They encounter the new Mystic Superweapon, who Glenn confirms as being rumored to exist. It is another modified Lavos spawn. They defeat it, and eventually reach the Mystic leader himself -- Serran, a sergeant in Magus's former army, who has begun to wield the lost Masamune. Special dialog occurs here if Magus is present.

The battle is won by the party, but Magus notes that Serran was using advanced temporal shadow magic. Before he succumbs to death, Serran informs the party that they will not escape this place -- that the red rock has willed it, and no one can escape its power or desires. However, he does not perish; a voice tells him to retreat into time, and he flees to the ruined Epoch. The party realize they left the Epoch before they knew that a war was going on, and that it was probably captured. It is partly destroyed; Serran triggers it, and escapes. Thoroughly intrigued, Belthasar must stop his curiosity in time to devise an escape plan for the party. Serran has shut down the transport machinery that leads back to the planet's crust; Belthasar provides the party with a series of natural gas vents; these are populated with gas-borne enemies. While fire spells instantly kill them, they are a double-edged sword in this environment. Eventually, the party makes it back topside and finds an inn, but cannot rest, as Porre vigilantes have set out en masse to slaughter the Mystics. Glenn alone awakes at night and attempts to stop the revolt, and is condemned by both sides, as each now wants to war. Glenn has the option to allow himself to stand between the sides and be severely beaten, or kill the opposing factions, who would normally be peaceful. Depending on which option he takes, he will receive different dialog when his friends realize he is gone and rush after him.

Serran's whereabouts are unknown. At the resolution of the incident, the Porre assassin reveals that it was he who incited the Porreans. He is wounded for some reason, and retreats.

Consequences for his decision:

silverforge2670: Option 1: Siding with Porre

This option will show Glenn giving into his distaste for the Mystics.  You will fight a Mystic warleader named Ral with the assistance of two of his tough minions.  These guys have powerful magic and a devastating Shadow-type triple tech.  When you beat these guys, Porre gives you thanks for helping them and sends a favorable message to King Guardia about Glenn.  They also give you some sort of magic reward.  However, after the scenario is finished, if you try to use Mystic-operated stores in 1002 A.D., you will encounter substantial price hikes and occasionally an outright fight - these are only the more immediate results.  If you go to Porre, though, tensions will have backed down somewhat between the two governments.

silverforge2670: Option 2: Siding with the Mystics

Porre will express incredulity at this course of action and will send forth their captain and two minions, just like with Porre.  Be warned - these guys have guns.  Their magical abilities are limited, but they possess heavy artillery to compensate.  The Mystics will thank you if you beat them, give you a magical charm, and cease their revolt against Guardia.  The surviving Mystics will turn themselves in.  When you go to the future, however, you will find Porre to be much more hostile to you.  All Porrean enemies will be more difficult to defeat.

silverforge2670: Option 3: Declaring Neutrality

This provokes a dismissive reaction from both sides.  An absolute bloodbath then occurs.  When it's over, the opposing armies will have been eradicated to the last man.  The corpses are available for looting, and thus you obtain far more items than you would with either of the first two options.  When the party arrives, they are shocked at what appears to be Glenn's handiwork, but none moreso than Magus.  The party knew Glenn was a powerful fighter, but death on this scale seems beyond him.  A flashback to Glenn's conversation with Cyrus on Zenan Bridge occurs.  Post-that, the Masamune itself is altered to reflect the more sinister form it takes on in Chrono Cross.

Storyline 10

After the incident, the party returns to Chronopolis, where Belthasar gives them disturbing information -- that the "red rock" could be something potentially catastrophic, and that they must prepare for a journey to infiltrate Zeal to access its boundless libraries and ascertain further information on it. Magus and Schala immediately recoil at the thought of returning, along with most of the party, who question the state of affairs there. Fortunately, Belthasar tells them that it will only be for the space of a night. The party immediately prepares, though Robo visits with Atropos here. They arrive at the Dispatch Chamber, and are whisked away to Zeal, ca. 12001 B.C., before the Prophet arrives and the Mammon Machine is activated for the first time. It is a clear night; the party immediately enters Enhasa, where dreamers have made pilgrimage to engage in wondrous fantasies on this beautiful night. The party can 'talk' to each dreamer, and see what they're dreaming of. The party makes its way into Belthasar's secret room in Enhasa, but finds nothing. However, they are ambushed by Nu guards; Belthasar scrambles to give the party a code to deactivate the guards, and if they fail to activate it, they must fight high level Nu. After this yields nothing, the party travels to Kajar. The labs are mostly closed and empty, but some burn the midnight oil. In the secret room there, the party stumbles upon Belthasar, sleeping peacefully (cue comical scene where future Belthasar laughs about his old self).

The party finds the tomes needed, and begins digitizing the data. However, they hear several footsteps approaching. They overhear voices mentioning that a lofty dreamer has noted that trespassers shall infiltrate the laboratories of Kajar on this night; frantically, the party tries to expedite the data transfer, but it is too late; Dalton enters with his troop of guards. He sics the guards on the party first, and they are easily dispatched, and flee. Dalton immediately summons a GolemPrince, and fights alongside it. When they are subdued, Dalton turns to flee, mentioning that the queen will not be happy about these trespassers, and that the highest authorities in Zeal are on their way to fry these dolts. The party is told to return, as Belthasar does not believe they have enough time to digitize the rest of the data before Dalton returns with a significant force, but the old Belthasar here wakes up. If Schala is in the party, she will ask him for the tomes; he will produce an orb that has them magically stored within. If Magus is in the party, he will remark that he seems familiar; otherwise, the party will simply implore that they are travelers from afar, seeking knowledge. Belthasar is too groggy to care, and yields the information. As the guys leave Kajar, a member of the troop will make a comment about wanting to see Zeal Palace one last time. The party can either return or make the journey; if the latter is taken, they'll have to fight members of the palace guard, which will be very difficult battles. If the party makes it, they will be allowed to see Schala and Janus sound asleep. If they enter the throne room, they will observe a totally black figure upon it who immediately disappears upon their entry.

Storyline 11

The party returns to Chronopolis. Almost having a seizure, Belthasar yells to his advisers that time seems to be changing again. He quickly notes that the facility itself seems to be under attack; the party goes to the roof to find the facility totally enveloped in a haze. Melchior accompanies to give the party upgraded weapons, and then quickly retreats; the party battles several ghostlike figures who fade in and attack the facility. The last boss is a Zombor like creature; after he is defeated, the party reaches the end of the research wing's roof, where the black silhouette is there once more. He speaks -- "Enough time has passed." He fades away; the party is ordered to return inside. Belthasar confides with his advisers, and reaches a conclusion. He asks the party to go to the roof once more; they find that outside are mists, just like the End of Time's clouds. Belthasar confirms it -- Chronopolis has shifted to the End of Time. He explains that while Chronopolis has countermeasures to withstand changes in time that could interfere with its creation, that huge changes in time which prevent its construction entirely will cause Chronopolis to active its last chance -- a trip to the void of the End of Time, where, in a Pocket Dimension-like area, it is shielded from temporal changes. The party is dumbfounded; they inquire what could have done this, to which they receive no answer. Belthasar merely tells them they absolutely must figure out what was changed; the party thus enters the dispatch chamber, and returns to 11998 B.C. Instead of the new continent, they arrive upon frozen, icy plains, set in the midst of an unrelenting blizzard. Fearing the worst, they scan the continent, they find Terra Cave, and immediately question its inhabitants.

Storyline 12

All this time, Belthasar is relaying messages of pure bewilderment, and confirms that they are in the real 11998 B.C. The citizens of Terra Cave confirm his greatest fear -- that this is a time in which Zeal still soars in the sky as the crown jewel of human achievement, and the Earthbound are relegated to the cold planet. Belthasar notes that the events of 12000 B.C. must have been somehow averted, and that the salvation of Zeal has ensured that the Ice Age never relents, and human society never evolves on the ground past the hovels of the Earthbound -- at least not for thousands more years. The party immediately travels to Zeal via Skyways, though they must battle guards stationed there. They make their way to Zeal Palace, and find Queen Zeal -- though she is still infatuated with Lavos, she remembers nothing of the events of Chrono Trigger, but nonetheless is joyful at the chance to beat some trespassers into the ground. After she is dispatched, she hints at where she is retreating; a Skyway gate is left in her wake. The party uses it, and travels halfway across the globe to the Royal Court, a small island with regal gardens and a second throne room; the gardeners inform the party where they are, though they wonder how they arrived. Inside, upon the second throne, sits King Zeal. He immediately welcomes the party, hoping that they've had a pleasurable stay in Zeal; the party immediately begins to question his living, history, and why Zeal has remained afloat. Zeal simply notes that he took some measures to avert all that nasty history, including instating clone versions of all the citizens, including Schala, Janus, and Queen Zeal. Schala/Magus and the party are horrified, but King Zeal merely welcomes them to enjoy a residency in the eternal kingdom of Zeal, holding that the world they knew will be erased as Zeal continues to fly, and the Ice Age below never ends.

The party insists on further knowledge and confrontation, but Zeal seems to not want a fight. Eventually, he retires to a balcony, with the view of the boundless sky below. The party follows him here; he once again tells them to have no worries, and live forever with him. A party member will have none of this, and physically attacks King Zeal. Thus begins a large battle; King Zeal is mostly a spellcaster, not wishing to soil his own hands. After being defeated, he collapses on the ground, muttering incoherent things, and blinks out of existence. The party, dumbfounded, begin to check the balcony, but Belthasar radios in and informs them that the death of King Zeal is serving as a trigger in time; however, explosions instantly radiate from the air and island; Belthasar notes that he cannot extract the party, but is dispatching the party's other members in an attempt to reach them while still retaining a grasp on the new dispatches, thus being able to pull them back. This fails; the entire party is caught in the maelstrom, and black out, the last vision being the figure in shadow in the sky.

Storyline 13

They awake on the ground, very injured; the must find shelter soon, which comes in the form of Zealian ruins buried long ago; they still contain a warming, magical aura. They fight a few automated guards and eventually reach the repository; there lies the Porre assassin. They have a long dialogue; the Porre assassin reflects on the erasure of his commands, and his gaining consciousness. He notes that after trying to stop the party from receiving the Epoch, he told Porre of their time traveling, and was given the instruction that should he be in a position to influence the past, he should do it for Porre's favor. After the events of 602 A.D., his human side grew discontent. He desires to come to Chronopolis with them. While around the fire, they discuss things, and reminisce of their journeys. As they're about to retire Belthasar bursts onto the scene, and is hugely happy they've been found. He notifies them that though the trigger of King Zeal has undone Zeal's continued survival, it will probably only be a matter of time before further ripples in the water of time effect catastrophic changes. Crono, Marle, or Lucca inquire as to what will happen in the modern time; Belthasar begs them to simply act out of faith, and continue the journey.

Before extracting the party, Belthasar reveals that the data taken from the Zealian volumes, their battles and encounters in the new Zeal, and temporal searches have yielded a few theories. He notes that he'd better not jump to any conclusions, but that the fate of the world rests on one man -- Gaspar. In all the tested scenarios in Chronopolis, knowledge that Gaspar retains is integral in rectifying the problem in time; the party is quick to ask where he can be found, but Belthasar regretfully states that he has disappeared from the scope of history. After the party transports back to the End of Time; the Porre agent has an adverse reaction to the magic being used to transport him and his damages, causing him to skew off into an unknown period.

Storyline 14

The party is advised to consult Spekkio; they search until they find the coordinates of his former room. A ladder of monsters begins, with the weakest ascending to the strongest; this lasts for a fairly long period of time. After the final boss, a red Nu appears, and activates a spell that instantly neutralizes the party. He then exclaims "SEE, I AM THE MASTER OF WAR!!!" Instanlty identified as Spekkio, he lets the party know that sadly, Gaspar embarked on a journey of his own back through time, and Spekkio was not told where he would be heading -- only that Gaspar, having fulfilled his duties and helped the planet rid itself of Lavos, was attempting to become one with the Entity.

Storyline 15

The party returns to Chronopolis, and speak with Belthasar in an attempt to decipher that riddle. Robo visits Atropos; Glenn speaks with Magus and Schala, while Crono and Marle retire to a cliff. Lucca talks to Belthasar; she asks him directly why he truly built Chronopolis. Belthasar remarks that like ancient humans guarding their caves once they find shelters, he is attempting to protect the timeline for humanity's sake from negative outside influence, giving the choice of free will to all. Lucca immediately asks what the danger is to time; Belthasar responds that time is relentlessly at war with itself, and that immortals such as Lavos and other beings who can harness shadow magic in excess will always pose a danger. Satisfied, Lucca begins helping around the laboratory. Crono desires an end to fighting, and Marle reassures him that it won't be long. Glenn, to Schala and Magus, makes the comment, "Truly, thy family is the most dysfunctional upon this world," in jest. He then expresses huge worry that no one in his era is worthy to wield the Masamune, and notes that its capacity for dreams are still subject to the corruptability of mankind.

Melchior also here informs the party that he was in the process of packing up his tools and moving off the continent of Medina when he was attacked; Belthasar transferred most of his items away, but powerful weapons may have fallen into the hands of the bandits, who may be allied to Porre. He remarks that before his transfer, he had been testing Guardia Rainbow Shell and discovered that the composition of most of the outside layers was dirty and unpure, having mixed with other dusts and metals over millions of years. He postulated that if one could penetrate these layers and tap the pure shell beneath, compressed at the time of Lavos's fall, the most hardest substance known to man could be accessible, and perhaps imbued with special energies due to the coating of magic that occured when Lavos hit the planet. He had no way to test this in the outside world, and only wrote basic theories and made smal applications (nonetheless dangerous in the hands of the wrong). However, in Chronopolis, he has access to temporal energies, where he can put his theories to use. By using a small wormhole gate, he plans to open a portal inside the shell temporally and fission out pure material. He is not skilled enough to shape the Gate fission as to produce a sword instantly, but he can spend a huge amount of time hammering away at the stuff to make it into something useful. He's refining the Rainbow at the moment. Belthasar tells the party that the Porre agent who assisted them's whereabouts are unknown. He then asks "What, you don't want to find him, do you?"

Storyline 16

With this accomplished, Crono, Magus, and Schala head to 11,998 B.C. on Sorin's tail.  However, as soon as they warp in from the Temporal Catch, they find something unbelievable; an immense city under the waves whose architecture is clearly that of Zeal.  It's a highly advanced city akin to Atlantis.  When the party contacts Belthasar about its existence, he finds it hard to believe that it even still exists.  According to Belthasar, this was ancient Zeal; the people that raised a continent into the sky to form the kingdom of Zeal were from this place.  He then enlightens them as to the nature of the Zealian Schism.  The Zeal we see floating in the sky in the original Chrono Trigger was a relatively new place, and not everyone wanted to risk it.  Those that didn't stayed behind in this city, built beneath the water (as Zeal conquered the sea before the air). A fourth Guru remained in charge; the Guru of Stars. As there are two realms to human existence -- body (Life) and mind (Reason), there are two realms to the universe -- (Time) and space (Stars).

As Crono accomplishes various quest-related tasks around the city, cutscenes occur.  Janus is a major focus here.  He talks to his father about various issues in his life, including his past, his sister, and his mother.  These conversations, "fireside chats" if you will, are intended to provoke and numb the player's senses at the same time.  At the end of these quests, King Zeal will offer Janus the chance to join with him, along with a special guest…a revitalized Queen Zeal!  The King claims that they can all be a family again, and that the holy artifact, the Frozen Flame, has made it possible.  This is when Janus realizes it's totally fake and tries to make a break for it.

King Zeal warps in front of the party as they seek to find some way out, and tells them that if they do not leave, then "we have a problem." A woman bursts in at this point, shouting that he has defiled history, and that the city, Calasperan, was supposed to lay sleeping in ruin. The party wonders if this entire city is a fabrication, just like the previous fake Zeal. The party has no earthly idea what's going on, but the woman tries to restrain King Zeal. She tells the party to flee; looking back, they see Zeal overpower her and throw her in a room. Crono and company reach a strange area where a few men ask them if Dyasavah wished them away; a party member says yes, if they are referring to the lady. The attendants offer to transport them to dry land, but Belthasar interrupts, stating that he's finally got a lock on the team, who travel out.

Storyline 17

The team immediately question what just happened; Belthasar remarks that the city they were in is indeed real, with a long and rich history of its own -- one cut short. Initially, Zeal conquered the waves before rising to the air; the place they built was called Calaspera. There were four Gurus, and when Zealians desired to sail above, one of them and several people declined this option, and remained underwater. They continued their own time research, in much more harmony with the planet than their friends above, but in 12000 B.C., the fall of Zeal caused destructive auras and debris to permeate the magic barriers and waterlocks of that city, causing it to come into ruin. He said that the Zeal of the sky even forgot that place eventually, and news of it only came through hearsay, which, investigated by a Guru, would cause suspicion of that Guru's mental health. Belthasar reveals that apparently, King Zeal has restored the city in 11998 B.C., two years after its destruction. The party then begins speculating whether the area will disappear if they defeat King Zeal there, and whether the loss of life would have to pass again. Belthasar can't offer moral advice here.

Storyline 16

...Everything I just wrote was erased because I clicked some link, and back wasn't fast enough to preserve this.

-Party visits Ayla, who had a child
-Talking with Ayla triggers temporal distortion
-Belthasar loses contact
-Party finds itself in prehistory prior to Lavos's landing; Ayla, Iokans dance
-Talking with Ayla and mentioning Azala triggers invasion; Ayla knows nothing, but does know the party members
-Party helps fight off invasion, reaching Azala at the top
-Ayla fights her, loses; party steps in to fight
-Azala defeated; party asks about Red Star, Azala knows nothing
-Mention of Red Star sends Ayla into a fury; she kills Azala
-World grows colder; postulating, party talks about her son
-They reassure her that he'll live, and reality reassumes itself
-Belthasar extracts them

Storyline 17

Belthasar notes that like the previous Chrono Triggers, talking to Ayla was the cause of this distortion. He notes that research shows no pattern to these historical rewrites, but that it seems a force is choosing at whim human desires and magnifying them, using dark, widespread machinations to alter the course of time itself. The party remind him that they wish to visit the Porre Assassin and locate him; he suggests they check the Zealian Ruins where he was first found after the elimination of the false Zeal. Schala wishes to come, as she knows her way around the place; they head for the Dispatch Chamber and arrive in 11998 B.C. They locate the ruins and the place where he was found without much effort; however, they spy an open entryway that he had been sitting in front of, and crawl through. They quickly find sprawling ruins that lay below Zeal Palace before (Zeal Dungeon lives!). Schala notes that in these corridors were the tomb of kings, a detainment facility, secure, arcane laboratories and the treasury basement. These make little difference to the party, as the changes are only in architecture as they continue downward; they begin to encounter amalgations of magic and living tissue, undoubtedly left from earlier days. It seems auras and energy are empowering whatever organic or sentient material found its way in. Belthasar notes, somewhat in shame, that the uncontrolled experimentation in the final days of Zeal under the Mammon Machine's reign is responsible.

A Nu sleeps in front of the treasury door; the party awakes him, and he notes that "Whoops, better awaken the doom seal." Frantically, the party calls Belthasar, who answers that he'd better not, and that he will unleash a ferocious defense system upon the party. Belthasar helps them deactivate it, but he isn't 100% that it's been stopped; the Nu remarks "whatever," and goes back to sleep. One hall remains before the treasury; Schala has an onset of memories, and the party then enters. They are shocked to find Queen Zeal, a strange, blue-haired teenager, and a completely-restored room. Queen Zeal is nice and benevolent. The blue-haired boy calls himself Janus; the party immediately freaks, including Schala, who is in disbelief. The party notice that where cave should be in a hole in the wall, zooming clouds are seen. Belthasar remarks that it seems to be happening again, but that long buried, the soul of Queen Zeal can't be responsible. He's not sure about the boy, who now steps forward and tries to comfort Schala. Belthasar gives an ubiquitous "hold back, Magus," as Schala and the party are dumbfounded by this kid's knowing her. The party talks to Schala, asking her how she knows him, and any other information; Schala quotes strangely that he looks as she thought Janus would in her mind if he had grown up. Queen Zeal is infuriated, experiencing some kind of pain; she stands poised to challenge the party. She and the boy dissipate from existence as Schala regains her composure; all that is left is precisely what Belthasar feared -- the defense mechanism.

A ghastly creature, it spouts some semi-philosophical lines about the void and nothingness, and proceeds to give the party and really hard battle. After it is defeated, it notes with its dying breaths that it can feel the King; that somewhere he lives, and he prays that his failure will not displease him. The party then enter a final flight of stairs below, and find an item on a black pedestal. Belthasar responds ambivalently and asks the party to return to Chronopolis.
~
Things on the way:

Gaspar will be found in a primeval era, in which the planet is brimming with new life and is in its most energetic throes. He plans to bind with the Entity somehow, and be absorbed into it.

Belthasar will give the Chrono Break to the party, an item he created in Zeal but hid away due to its potential only for bad application. It is an item that uses temporal fluctuations to assassinate a person or destroy something, and it is unfathomably powerful. He intends to destroy King Zeal with it.

Schala must somehow bite the bullet and become skewed into the DBT somehow at the end. Magus will pursue her, resulting in being subjected to temporal fluctuations, and awaking with a near total-amnesia. Thus, Guile was born.

The Porre agent will make one last heroic gesture. I'm unsure whether events like the Fall of Guardia itself will be included.
~

Things that bind this story:

King Zeal found the Frozen Flame in Zeal; he thus did not pass away, but was carried away by his own will and disappeared from the scope of history.

After Lavos is eliminated, the Frozen Flame is the last beacon of his will, and thus more heavily magnifies the wishes of King Zeal to spread chaos according to Lavos's last directive.

~

Hadriel also has a variety of ideas about how King Zeal can use the Chrono Break if it falls into his hands, including assassinating the Entity or maintaining some control over it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: SILVERWOLF_87 on December 31, 2004, 09:32:00 pm
Sounds pretty good. I only read the first few chapters of the story (didn't want to get anymore spoilers for your version of Chrono Break), but they sure sound pretty good! I wish you the best of luck on your project  :)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Dunsparce on December 31, 2004, 11:06:01 pm
This reminds me of a time I was helping on a project to make a game on the net, but I quit 'cause the Admin was an @$$.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Jasson Knight on December 31, 2004, 11:23:47 pm
Sounds great!  It reads like a fitting part of the Chrono series.  =)  I'm interested, that's for sure.

Good luck on it!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Symmetry on January 01, 2005, 02:49:41 pm
Finally just finished reading the storyline. It sounds pretty solid, although when reading this, I can't figure out the purpose of the Porrean Assassin. I remember talking to you about it before, but in this description (unless I missed something or have forgotten in already) he seems a little pointless.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on January 01, 2005, 03:55:59 pm
Sounds good. The story is really solid, and it's a nice addition to the series (to think that so much happens between CT and CC, wow). But, as for the gameplay issue, how are the characters power going to be handled? This would be too easy if Crono will be able to Luminaire everybody right from the beginning of the game...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 01, 2005, 06:20:21 pm
It may have to be reset so that the characters start out like they did in CT. If techs ever become editable, we can probably give him new, more powerful techs and simply have Luminaire become a basic one.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Andrelvis on January 02, 2005, 01:34:49 am
Or maybe even there will be the possibility to add techs instead of replacing?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 02, 2005, 01:49:45 am
The issue is challenge. If Crono starts off with several techs, they'd have to be severely weakened, which would look bad; however, if he just started out with something plus Lumanaire, the challenge curve could be maintained and he'd still have new stuff to learn.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Andrelvis on January 02, 2005, 03:35:03 pm
Hmm... you could make the enemies start out very strong... So all those techs/Luminaire won't be that much of a deal. Or maybe you can make the techs weaker.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 02, 2005, 08:24:26 pm
I think the assassin was my idea, but it's become such a collective effort that I can't remember.  But I do remember my idea for handling this gameplay issue.  My take is that Crono, Marle, and Lucca start off at level 65 with all their best equipment and Techs (Rainbow, WonderShot, Prism Dresses for both Marle and Lucca, etc.)  I'd also take out the Techs that no one ever uses and simply leave the best ones in, and I thought up an ultimate Cold attack for Marle called Quantum State, which robs enemies of an HP amount in the range of Flare, Luminaire, and other such attacks and gives 20-30% of it back to Marle.  The counter for that is as follows:

My idea was that the first Porre fighter was but a simple agent, but that the second, the as-yet-unnamed Assassin, would transform into a powerful warbot when Crono catches up to him.  Marle and Lucca arrive to help him battle it, as it's strong enough to warrant their assistance -- somewhere around the development level of the Rust Tyrano from CT.  Then, when Lucca activates the Time Egg, transporting them to 2302 A.D., their best weapons and powers mysteriously disappear, as if something that lurks in that irregular temporal disturbance is devouring the spiritual energy that fuels them.  Then they would be reduced to level 5-10 or so, and you'd have to build them up again.

Here is my idea of the characters' starting state at level 65:

Crono—Heaven

Equipment                                                      |            Techs        
Weapon—Rainbow Sword                      |            Cyclone (hits enemies in a certain radius)
Armor—Moon Armor                                      |            Spincut (2x attack damage)
Headgear—Safe Helm                                      |            Lightning (hits one, chance to stun)
Accessory—Power Seal         |   Lightning 2 (hits all, less chance to stun)
               ----------------------------------                                                      |            Luminaire (kills undead, 2x VS Lavos energies)

=============

Marle—Cold

Equipment            |   Techs
Weapon—Valkerye         |   Aura (heals one party member)
Armor—Prism Dress         |   Charm (steals item from enemy)
Headgear—Prism Helm      |      Ice (hits one, chance to freeze)
Accessory—Pendant         |   Ice 2 (hits all, less chance to freeze)
               ----------------------------------                                                   |                Quantum State (massive HP drain, Marle takes 20%)

=============

Lucca—Fire

Equipment            |               Techs
Weapon—WonderShot 2      |   Hypno Wave (chance to put enemies to sleep)
Armor—Prism Dress         |   Sniper Shot (2x shot damage, chance of 6000 pt hit)
Headgear—Prism Helm      |   Fire (hits one, chance to set ablaze)
Accessory—Green Dream      |   Fire 2 (hits all, less chance to set on fire)
----------------------------------            |   Flare (sets enemies ablaze for 1 turn after use)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's my idea of the characters after they go through the Time Egg's temporal disturbance:

Crono—Heaven

Equipment                                                   |                 Techs        
Weapon—Vibrosword                                   |                 Cyclone (hits enemies in a certain radius)
Armor—Cammo                                   |                 Lightning (hits one, chance to stun)                                  
Headgear—Cammo Helm                                                     
Accessory—Power Glove      

=================

Marle—Cold

Equipment            |   Techs
Weapon—StreamArrow      |   Aura (heals one party member)
Armor—Kevlar Suit         |   Ice (hits one, chance to freeze)
Headgear—Gold Helm            
Accessory—Pendant      

=================

Lucca—Fire

Equipment            |   Techs
Weapon—Magnum          |   Hypno Wave (chance to put enemies to sleep)
Armor—Taban Suit         |   Fire (hits one, chance to set ablaze)
Headgear—Lode Helm            
Accessory—GreenDream      

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comments? Thoughts? These are just my ideas -- I'm by no means the only one working on this.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 02, 2005, 09:15:43 pm
More from Hadriel about the plot:

~Chronopolis Buildings~

The Medical Facility, the Temporal Catch, the Chrono Compendium, the Dispatch Chamber (in which lies a convenient Save Point), the Observatory, the Reactor Core, the Auxiliary Power Station, the Training Room, the Armory (in which Melchior hangs out), the Hangar, the Research Lab, the Secondary Research Lab, and the Concourse, in which Nadia's Bell is proudly displayed.

~2302 A.D. Map~

The world map IS Chronopolis, since the party is confined to it. Any clue that Chronopolis is not what the government believes is a military research center would result in the cutting of funding. Melchior commands security.

~Initial Porre Attack~

Porre Navy bypasses Zenan Bridge and attacks Truce; CML go on an undercover mission to sabotage their forward command post and steal their plans. This is done and the information is relayed to King Guardia. CML catch Genreal Montcrief and William Ishito on the way out; Ishito remarks that it is deplorable that things have happened this way, but he must do his duty. He then leaves; the party stays behind to battle Montcrief's tank.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: MogGuy on January 02, 2005, 10:44:45 pm
Can't wait for more! Do you have an estimation for a release date?[/quote]
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 02, 2005, 10:53:56 pm
Absolutely none whatsoever. As proof of concept I'm going to release the first part of the game, which features everything up to the disappearance on Denadoro Mts. I'll then make a thread on ACMLM asking for help and whatnot.

The difficulty is time. It takes awhile to set up NPCs just like you want to and tweak locations, etc. so I am hopeful that I can get some assistance from a pool of TF users who can do simple jobs like adding soldiers to a room or something. I'm also holding out for new versions of Temporal Flux at the moment, though I have begun work on the state of 1002 A.D.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on January 03, 2005, 01:17:03 pm
Mmh, William Ishito... sounds like Norris' Japanese name :roll:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 03, 2005, 03:40:27 pm
There's a reason for that -- he's supposed to be Norris' older brother.  Norris is a kid at this point in time, and he looks up to William.  He's just one of many ideas that we've thrown out there to be used in some way, much like the Assassin.  Beyond what has already been posted, I don't know how he'll be used.  I'm trying to think of something good for both characters.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 03, 2005, 05:22:01 pm
Yeah, I suppose I left that out of the formal plot. William Ishito is indeed Norris's brother, a recycled idea from my first attempt at a fanfiction (featuring Norris's father ca. 1003 A.D.). He's quite a jovial philosopher literary type, guaranteeing a rising status in the Porre army, but he tends to look the other way concerning Porre's darker activities and oppression. This may come to a head within CTCE, since Norris must a.) reach leadership of the Black Wind group, so his family must be esteemed within the army, and b.) have moral difficulties with Porre's activities.

Here is William's dialogue so far, and his journal entry (he has a book in the Porre barracks):

Quote from: Sleepness
  Oh, hello! I'm William Ishito. I must
   have dozed off. These barracks are
   not conducive to reading, eh?{page break}
Hmm...I do believe I am tired,
   however. I will resume my nap,
   as I have the night shift. Do stop by
   sometime. I would hugely enjoy{page break}
a chat with you fellows! Farewell.
   Oh, and I've misplaced a jewel
   of mine near the food stocks. If
   you find it, you can have it.{null}


Quote from: JournaLitY
  April 16th, A.D. 1002

   The stars are especially clear, and I
   have had the pleasure of observing{page break}
a comet dash across the night sky.
   I think of home in times like this -
   Of my smiling parents, and Norris,
   my kid brother. Judging from the{page break}
state of world affairs, I pray he
   does not follow my path, and
   enlist. If he does, however, I'm
   sure he will make a fine leader.{page break}
A disturbance has been reported
   near the forest. Good night.

                -o-  W.I. -o-{null}


Part of the reason I'm holding off for a newer version of TF is support for infinite length strings. With huge entries like that, stuff runs over in other dialogue.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 04, 2005, 11:56:26 am
Preview Synopsis

Vanquished by seven magnificent warriors, Lavos has laid his head and submitted to the sands of the hourglass; the End of Time is now vacant, and each has returned unto his own era, hailed and received as heroes. Their valor is lofty, and their noble deeds range through the history of mankind, benefitting all with the gifts of their honored quest. While man may always be imperfect, and while some were lost during the effort to secure the salvation of the planet from the alien invader, countless lives have been saved, and the meaning and responsibility of life has once again been placed in the hands of human beings and Mystics alike. The threat has been removed, and the saints of the Chrono Trigger now labor to improve the state of affairs at home.

But the scope of time is never spotless; the spectre of bloody stains now lurks over it once more, as the full repercussions of the trails through time have come to bear. Unrelenting, the cold blizzards pound against the caves and hearts of prehistoric peoples. Unfound, a pure soul remains vanished from the warming tundras of antiquity. Unsuccessful, the knight continues to search for an heir to his legacy. And unabashedly, the nations of the south outfit their clothes with new weapons of war. Only in the future does hope gleam, where the exploits of science will soon afford man a gaze into the stream of time and a view into his past – a vantage point already held by darker forces which, too, overshadow the victory over the apocalypse, and stand poised to introduce new scourges of bloodshed and unrest to history. They may be stopped, however – if the heroes can once again unite; if they can escape and rectify the troubles of their presents, and join as one hand once more, defending and standing fast against the Crimson Echoes.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 04, 2005, 12:55:33 pm
Has anyone ever used Temporal Flux here?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 04, 2005, 06:45:36 pm
I think I sent you the .ips file where I put Marle in in place of Crono's mom.  So far, I've just scanned over it, other than that.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 04, 2005, 09:26:14 pm
Just wondering; once the plot is finished I'll issue a call for tac-welder TF workers. These guys can meet specific, menial demands and divide up the huge time required to make this.

I need some feedback for emerging plot ideas.

Next rounds of plot-

Ayla and Schala sections already up. Basically, after King Zeal's wishes were magnified and exterminated, the Flame begins to draw upon the wishes of the heroes for chaos when they undergo sensitive moments. This triggers a sunny prehistory for Ayla, the restoration of Queen Zeal and a strange boy, Janus of Zeal, the complete slaughter of all Mystics by Cyrus (a dark wish of Frog's after his transformation), etc. I haven't thought up ideas for what Crono/Marle/Lucca/Robo's dark wishes could be, or how to affect the other periods. Let me know how you like this and where to go with it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 08, 2005, 02:25:22 pm
Noting that at some point, Glenn should go back and visit his old burrow in the Cursed Woods.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Lord J Esq on January 09, 2005, 12:19:33 am
Quote from: ZeaLitY
I haven't thought up ideas for what Crono/Marle/Lucca/Robo's dark wishes could be, or how to affect the other periods. Let me know how you like this and where to go with it.


Since these four characters show up in some capacity in Chrono Cross, you may be able to tie them together, somehow. All four seem to be pretty darn condemned in that game, which may provide an opportunity for foreshadowing via your "dark wishes."

Just a thought...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 09, 2005, 12:34:18 am
Aha, good idea. They can have fears/wishes about the future, or the past quest. I can also magnify the present plot elements, such as Crono's mounting unwillingness to kill, or Marle's buried pain from the death of her mother.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 09, 2005, 10:21:29 pm
Latest ideas:

Akin to the Magic Cave dilemma, Robo can now equip his arm with beam weaponry that deals magic damage but relatively little physical harm. This will work well in areas like Magic Cave, where enemies have insane physical defense, but are susceptible to magic.

Dragon's Tooth is a really wacky form of Dreamstone

Weird Continuum changed so that it occurs after Glenn is in the party, affording everyone a little scenario

New section added:

Melchior also here informs the party that he was in the process of packing up his tools and moving off the continent of Medina when he was attacked; Belthasar transferred most of his items away, but powerful weapons may have fallen into the hands of the bandits, who may be allied to Porre. He remarks that before his transfer, he had been testing Guardia Rainbow Shell and discovered that the composition of most of the outside layers was dirty and unpure, having mixed with other dusts and metals over millions of years. He postulated that if one could penetrate these layers and tap the pure shell beneath, compressed at the time of Lavos's fall, the most hardest substance known to man could be accessible, and perhaps imbued with special energies due to the coating of magic that occured when Lavos hit the planet. He had no way to test this in the outside world, and only wrote basic theories and made smal applications (nonetheless dangerous in the hands of the wrong). However, in Chronopolis, he has access to temporal energies, where he can put his theories to use. By using a small wormhole gate, he plans to open a portal inside the shell temporally and fission out pure material. He is not skilled enough to shape the Gate fission as to produce a sword instantly, but he can spend a huge amount of time hammering away at the stuff to make it into something useful. He's refining the Rainbow at the moment.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 12, 2005, 09:55:10 am
New plot ideas: (by the way, Radical Dreamers states that a "northern kingdom" held the Flame in the past, and that the Flame was used in the Mammon Machine, so I get to elaborate on these)

The party attend a meeting in the Kingdom of Guardia about the current state of affairs, and in the Vanguard Post, read of the awesome power of the holy artifact that allowed Guardia to be created in a time of tumult and absence of leadership. They learn also that Guardia retained the artifact only the first three centuries of its reign; it was then strangely lost. Belthasar jumps at this and tells the party that this is the Frozen Flame; that he recalls it was used in the Mammon Machine and that his theory being developed has reached a head -- combined with its powers he observed before the fall of Zeal, and other legends and accounts he's been acquiring, the Frozen Flame may be the source of these strange repercussions throughout time, and is certainly capable of it. Knowing that the Vanguards will immediately answer the call, and can mount a very effective ground search combined with Chronopolis's technology, Belthasar requests that Glenn give the order. Luther of the Vanguards is unexpectedly zealous to the call, and the Vanguards are wowed by Glenn's illutrious presence. They immediately spread across the world with zest to find the mysterious artifact.

Like some of the lesser-organized and venal crusades of the middle ages, this effort has an immediately apparent dark side, as the overexcited soldiers refuse to take no for an answer when questioning some, and even pillage storehouses they come across. The villagers of Choras, Porre, Medina, and even Truce are infuriated at this violation of privacy, and only the recent sedation of the Porre army keeps them from viewing the search effort as an outright invasion. Cut to a cutscene; Magus tells Glenn that his villainous band of Vanguards is disgusting; Schala tries to calm his words. Glenn acknowledges that this was not his intent. Though Luther is away, the Knight-Captain and Roget appear (again, these three lead the Vanguard; Luther is sort of PR charismatic leadership vision, Knight-Captain Renault kicks unreal ass, and Roget maintains books, legends, scrolls, logistics, etc. [he's wise]). The Knight-Captain notes that his band of warriors is attempting to reforge a path into the Denadoro Mountains, which have been finally cut off after the peoples of Dorinos moved. Roget expresses interest in the area as well, as even in 600 A.D., the very deepest nests and slopes of the range were never truly penetrated and mapped.

A thought happens upon Crono; the party decide to go check on the great Toma in 602 A.D. He's resting in the Dorino Cafe once more; he hails the party's return and declares that he is following the advice of an ancient prophecy, and is trying to locate four treasure armors that are said to keep the elements in check. The party reluctantly inform him that they found those long ago; he laughs it off well enough, and asks them what they're doing. The party responds that they're searching for a holy atifact, and describe the Frozen Flame. Toma does know of it, but says that its probably fiction or legend, and that they shouldn't waste their time finding it. When asked about good places to hunt legends and treasure, Toma concedes that since the Rainbow Shell has been found, the only real thing left is the Valle Crimse, the mountain behind Guardia Castle. An ancient monastery used to exist there, where the kings of Guardia would retreat to undergo pious study in the first couple centuries of Guardia's reign. He notes that its sort of the proving grounds for thieves and adventurers such as himself, and the place has probably been scraped clean. The party is nonetheless pleased, as the thieves probably have not stooped so low as to have carried away inscriptions on giant stone tablets. They thank him, and depart immediately for the mountain, which is impassable. King Guardia tells them that the knowledge of its access has been kept in his control, occasionally leaking to adventurers, and that he'll grant the party access, since "nothing of value is up there anyway." He then lets it out that he truly thinks the Frozen Flame is a myth, and when asked further, says that Guardia is well enough now, and can do without the aid of mystical items.

The party begin searching; the mountain is almost completely deserted of monsters, having been so well traversed, and so close to the knights of Guardia. They reach the monastery (new tileset will be made for this area), and search around; they eventually reach the highest level, which affords a spectacular view. As they begin searching and reading stuff on the walls, a voice stops them, and out comes a spectre of a knight. His dialogue is very old English and the party cannot understand him; Glenn must come in to translate. The knight remarks that he was one of the old legion of personal bodyguards to King Guardia V, and back in 261 A.D., received appointments to help him conquer the wild tribes of the east. He died honorably in battle there, but his loyalty and valor was of such strength that he did not pass on, but remained, and retreated to the monastery, a place he had often guarded while King Guardia V studied scripts and made plans at the quiet retreat. He is somber about the recent turn of events, which he has viewed from afar; he notes that the old order of Guardian knights is finally dying, replaced by newer soldiers who do not uphold the ideals in complete purity and obedience. He is impressed with Glenn's carrying the Masamune, and reveals himself to be a former wielder. Masa and Mune get some dialogue here, as they remember him as a really great warrior, but kind of too serious for their tastes. The knight then remarks that he plans to retire to the afterlife soon, and that he does know a bit of information on the mystic artifact rarely seen in his time, but always present at the King's request. Desiring one more rush of excitement and vigor through his being, he challenges Crono, the heir of the Kingdom of Guardia, to a one on one match to see if "The Kingdom still has it where it counts." Masa and Mune watch. At the Bottom of the Night plays during the battle.

Crono defeats him, and the knight is somewhat happy. He tells the party that his only knowledge is the quip, "The Crown Star of the Blue Empyrean." (refers to Flame being in sea of El Nido) Before he leaves, Glenn asks him if he has seen or approves of the Vanguard Post he has created. The knight warns that the Flame has its own will, and that no man should know too much about his own destiny, but to never accept less. And even if good endeavours fail, there is no shame in trying with all of your being. He then exits to a portal, leaving Crono a kickass sword -- the Geistrand, perpetually in limbo like the knight, and almost capable of cutting through a person's being and soul due to this aspect. Belthasar calls and notes that they're some of the most privileged people in the world to have the audience of such a person, even in his ghostlike state. He also states that the riddle has him confused, but that he has a lead. Recall in the Prerelease, the Sealed Pyramid had a trove beneath it. Belthasar states that the North Palace ruins are probably intact, and as the creator of that stash, he's got the keys to the place. They journey there, and Belthasar arrives himself to undo the magical seals, with Melchior in attendance. Melchior talks about the Swallow somewhat. The seal is undone, and Belthasar wishes them well. They return to Chronopolis; the party venture inward.

(Music: Keeper's Dome) They find it in pristine condition, and the chests grant some hefty gold. Belthasar notes that a shrine was built in the lowest level, farthest back, and that a simple historical account was maintained there by a guard. Though he's long passed away, the party do find a Nu standing there, looking into the distance. They confront the Nu, who, surprised, blurts out that he was feeling nostalgic, and found this place. He notes that he will be going now, but the party tell him it is okay, and Belthasar talks to him over the transceiver. The Nu translates the historical account, which mentions the integration of the Flame into the Mammon Machine: "And raised, it shone with Diamonds Million, piercing the eyes of all who gazed upon it." The Nu has some difficulty with the DM term, since its written in ornate script. Belthasar notes that Diamonds Million was a sorcery term, describing a special kind of effervescence that high level fire-elemental spells emitted. He is pleased, as he can now limit his searches of radiation and magic effects to this kind.

Back in 1002 A.D., the Vanguards are being blocked by a huge mudslide that occurred a hundred years ago and has caused the entrance to the slim valley leading to the heart of the mountains to be impassably blocked. Lamenting that it will take months to clear a way through, the party nonetheless get the idea that perhaps triggering the impending slide in 602 A.D will allow ample time for erosion, perhaps freeing the way in the future. They get to the task; a member expresses some worry, but the party eventually snaps to the task and causes the mudslide. Returning to the future, they find the Vanguards advancing happily as if nothing happens. They arise from an encampment, and attempt to get started when a Porre scout arrives on the scene and demands to know what is going. Informed by the zealous Vanguards that a search mission is underway, the scout freaks out and takes off sprinting in the direction he came. The Vanguards dismiss him as a timid creature; Roget is worried about the implications, stating that the Vanguard had better finish this Denadoro search and leave to avoid tension. Belthasar calls in with another recommendation for the party; he states that before Zeal was raised high, sacred sites existed on the planet's crust that held archives of magic, or were charged with elemental power. While most of these were decomissioned or raised, one or two may still exist. The party then asks him with common sense why in the world they just do not visit Zeal and read the tomes there; Belthasar notes that the implementation of the Flame was a very secretive operation, and that only he and the other Gurus knew about it (after all, he did have the "Red Rock" entry in his book in his Kajar room). The Guru of Reason states that the party will be assisted in their search for these sacred sites by the use of markers he will place on the party's commlink map screen. The party depart to Chronopolis and begin to head for the Dispatch Chamber; Melchior stops them and remarks that he once maintained a storehouse on the ground, built for experimental technology he deemed unfit for the people of Zeal to currently wield. Its magical auras were dampened with a seal, so it will not show on Belthasar's improved world map. However, should they find it, he can accomplish some new things with the technology there.

There are five areas to explore; they include the Salr Riki (hall-kingdom), Forlogborg (fate city), Maerr (glorious), Hyrrdis (fiery grave), and Svyrdass (sword-god), Melchior's small hideaway. Salr Riki is a former throne room, predating Zeal and seemingly of only temporary use. A special accessory is available here, which will have an effect on magic. Forlogborg seems to be a town of sorts, but gaping holes in its floor lead downard to bottomless pits, leaving much of it inexplorable. Of note are two intact skeletons, with Zealian shrouds over them; Belthasar notes that they were part of an expeditionary force assigned to census these old locations and determine any usefulness. The party properly buries them, and nets a knife/staff for Schala (either will work, as Zealian agents carried both). An inscription on the entrance tile reads, "Precious Incarnadine,' perhaps a reference to the color of the Flame and its possible presence here long ago. Maerr is a mere shrine to the planet, and a shawl laid over it and absorbant of the shrine's original power can be used as armor for the female members of the party. Hyrrdis is originally unable to be accessed; the party consult the elder of the village, who reveals that merely in spoken Earthbound legend, the shameful kings and lords of those who did not live in the caves were put to death and placed in a shrine, and that this is the only recorded burial of their race (those that predate Zeal).

A former Zealian who was part of the expeditionary force's administration notes that Hyrrdis lay within a mountain cave several fathoms deep. He then regrets the fall of Zeal, and forgetting Schala's face. He does state that it should remain intact within the mountain. Belthasar radios that yes, he has known where it is, but has been working to solve the problem of penetration itself. The party then ask a fisherman for advice; he replies that yes, the building of sea-travelling vessels is beginning to emerge, and shows off his rudimentary boat. Belthasar notes that the party could possibly use it to reach the island, but it would require upgrades to withstand hours at sea. Off the crew go to the guy in 602 A.D. with tools; they find him in the bar with Toma. They borrow the tools; Toma asks what they're using them for, and if they've found something that's eluded him. They return, and fix the boat, and sail off to the edge of the mountain.

Stuff to come
-Bandits in on eof the ruins
-Ghost/Dagger in Hyrrde
-Party goes on a bit of treasure hunting in each era
-Eventually tracks
-Go to El Nido in 1000 A.D. (of course nothing is there but the Flame)
-Try to take the Flame, but King Zeal unleashes its full power
-Breaking Point

Sidequests
-Visit the Larubans (who have the Sun Stone)
-Help Ozzie, Slash, and Flea contain some demon they accidentally unleashed (they eventually depart to travel through time on an adventure)
-Help Toma stake a claim to fame so he can seal a marriage (bringing about Toma XIII in Chrono Cross)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on February 02, 2005, 07:01:45 pm
Mental note: Make some plot point that deals with rain, and involve Fiona's Shrine in the plot somehow.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Geiger on February 03, 2005, 03:05:13 am
Lucca's dark desire would probably be science related.

Nich Maragos (a freelance game journalist) wrote fan fiction for Lucca in the NuRPG.  At one point, she had a complete mental breakdown and split into two personas (much like Gollum or the episode of Star Trek where Kirk is doubled via a transporter glitch).  Her personas were pure, clinical, steralized, no-ethics science on one side and the wild passionate girl she had deeply repressed on the other.

Neither was really good or evil (though the passionate persona seemed to have more negative traits), but the science persona strongly desired to become a Technorg (a cybernetic species devoted to the same sort of "pure" science), which would have annihilated her emotions and pretty much everything that made her human.  You can read the climax of it here (http://www.geigercount.net/nurpg/arch/tp3/lucca18.htm) if you like (I co-authored this chapter).  A warning: should you wander around that site, keep in mind that not all of our authors produced works of art like Hamlet.  ;)

---T.Geiger
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on February 07, 2005, 02:03:32 am
Lucca is into science, but she doesn't want to be a freaking Borg.  She knows from experience that resistance is never futile.  But that can be exploited as well.

Basically, the route we're trying to take (or that I imagine, anyway, because I've worked on a lot of this plot) for the void section is to have it be somewhat like each individual character's "Jedi Trial" as it were (i.e. Luke going into the cave in ESB, the Exile facing the Mandalorian Wars again in KOTOR 2, Mara Jade fighting a clone of herself in Mysteries of the Sith) -- in general, something that resonates deeply on a personal and story-related level, something that conveys the same kind shock in Chrono Cross when all of a sudden, you find out you're in Lynx's body and your whole identity has been ripped right out from under you.

Memories of the quest against Lavos would no doubt come into play in all eight (?) scenarios, from the first trip through time all the way up to the final battle.  I suppose a vision of a future world where science has suppressed humanity, something like THX-1138, would be in order.  This world would demonstrate the toxicity inherent in humanity, and the control freak, the Lavos, in all of us.

I have garnered more knowledge of Temporal Flux, and I created a rearrangement of the OSV of the Magus battle theme.  Unfortunately, I have nowhere to host it, and thus no way to post it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on February 07, 2005, 06:48:53 pm
Send it to DivineDragoonKain@gmail.com, and I'll put it up on my crappy Geocities server. =P Let me know when you send it, if you can/will. I'm Ultrainer2000 on AIM.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2005, 07:36:40 pm
I find mywebpage.netscape.com to be useful for hosting odds and ends.  You can log in with your AIM account.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on February 08, 2005, 01:26:43 am
http://geocities.com/divinedragoonkain/magus_theme_ce_draft_2.zip
Click that or copy it into your browser to sample my reworking of Magus' battle theme.  Comments are much appreciated.[/url]
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on February 08, 2005, 06:31:13 pm
I think you meant http://www.geocities.com/divinedragoonkain/magus_theme_ce_draft_2.zip , Hadriel. >_>
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on February 09, 2005, 08:09:36 pm
What he said.
Title: Good Ideas guys!
Post by: Vyse on February 26, 2005, 01:00:13 am
Wow! Seriously, this game sounds great! I'd pay $50 for it if it turns out anything like Chrono Trigger was/is!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Vyse_The_Legend on February 26, 2005, 01:23:17 am
Maybe you guys can finish this before Squnenix comes out with Final Fantasy XII!  :lol:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on March 02, 2005, 05:49:50 pm
Hell, I wish.

Thanks for the encouragement, man.

I arranged a few more music tracks -- I'll upload them onto DDK's or ZeaLitY's hosting sites as soon as I get the chance.

I re-arranged Peaceful Days and Corridors of Time as well as World Revolution.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 10, 2005, 12:50:38 am
The assassin has a name: Sorin.

This next part will be intensive, and will sound superfluous originally. Just stay with me; its integral to the plot and development.

After the Frozen Flame goes crazy, the group is divided into three parties. Crono is by his lonesome, Marle, Lucca, and Robo form one, and Magus, Glenn, and Schala are in the other party. Crono finds himself in a nightmarish temporal flux; in truth, when the Flame went critical, the Time Devourer (which is forming according to temporal rules) has a split second to extract someone as they're vulnerable to temporal effects, much like Schala accidentally found herself in the Darkness Beyond Time. It naturally takes Crono, but his resilience throws him into a kind of limbo, in which realities and timelines come about to him, and the Flame plays on his fears. He awakens in Truce, and sees the Porre army in full force heading toward a group of civilians. Guardian retainers are cut down, and eventually another version of Crono comes on the scene. He attempts magic, but it doesn't work strangely; he is captured (fancy that) and taken back to Porre. The real Crono furiously pursues, fighting strangely VERY DIFFICULT battles; he reaches Porre, and the new Crono is under the guillotine. He attempts to go up and stop him, but William Ishito (a dark, red clad version) stops him and a fierce battle ensues. He must kill William Ishito, causing him pain; as he approaches Crono on the guillotine, Doan approaches him and asks if he would so quickly kill Doan again. A being called Prometheus arrives; the Robo sprite, but very damaged. He accuses Crono of causing him eons of eternity. The battle cannot be won; Crono sprawls on the ground, and watches as his nightmare-self gets the blade. Temporal Fluxes happen, and we switch to Marle, Lucca, and Robo.

They're on a frozen tundra; they have no idea what age they are in, but begin wandering. Immediately, Marle begins expressing turmoil over Crono's fate; Lucca is disturbed as well, and reveals that she still sort of likes the guy. Ensues girl talk. The party continues wandering near a mountain range; down a mountain, they spot a large mass, which turns out to be a primitive army bearing the brunt of the cold. Before they approach, they notice another army riding up the valley behind them; it is flying the Guardian flag, so they venture over there. The army is dumbfounded and nearly kills the travelers due to the weird robot with them (Robo), but Marle's pendant is the same as the leader - Cedric the Executor, later to become King Guardia I. Marle attempts to catch up, but the approaching army - the primitive tribe of Porre - is ready to fight, with spears armed. A massive battle takes place; as it did historically, it turns in Porre's favor, so Cedric the Executor books it out of there with Marle. Lucca and Robo can't rejoin the main forces; to save the wounded Lucca, Robo lets himself go. He is utterly vicious, protecting Lucca at any cost.

Back in an encampment and rudimentary shed, Marle converses with Cedric Guardia about the future. He notes that the divine forces were not on his side at the battle today, but that he shall "bring" them to the next encounter. Marle and the player learn that the angel in Manoria Cathedral is Cedric's mother, claimed to be of divine descent. At night, Robo drags Lucca in, and promptly collapses. Lucca is well-awake, and in a fit of rage; she blames herself for not being strong enough to fight on her own, and is starting to split down the middle in terms of science failing her and wanting to express herself violently. After they sleep, the party converse on the fact that it is indeed 1 A.D., a huge focal point in time. They wonder what's going on, and why Belthasar hasn't helped them. They resolve to get sleep and hope for better results tomorrow.

The army rides out early; with them is an Ark of the Covenant type box. They've goaded the Porre army into approaching their position in huge numbers; a secret attack from the side routs the army quickly. They stumble onto an encampment; Cedric orders the killing of everyone, including the women and children. Marle cannot stand this slaughter; Robo points out that changing things now might have an adverse effect in time, and Lucca notes that this could all be one of the bad Frozen Flame timelines anyway. Before the atrocity can be committed or prevented, Porre attacks again - a surprise retaliation! The Porrean leader arrives; his name is Antaeus. He wields an artifact called the RivenCrimse; Robo and Marle both recall that this battle, recorded in ancient lore, is the founding of Guardia. Though the story was glorified and edited as time went on, it nonetheless matches the prerequisites for the final showdown. Antaeus taunts Cedric the Executor, remarking that with the RivenCrimse, he just finished slaying a pack of Dorino filth escorting a Guardian chieftain. This sends Cedric into a fury; rather than fight, he opens the sacred box, and the Frozen Flame is revealed. Marle cries out; a light floods the battlefield. Robo is alarmed, however; while rumors have always been passed down that Guardia used an artifact to establish its kingdom, some of the energy emanating from the Flame registers in his Chronometer as being far in the the future of the Flame itself. Robo then remarks that Antaeus isn't being phased out of existence as he should be by the Flame. The Porre leader then appears in front of the party.

"A thousand fires have sparked within my mind! I see everything! I know all! And I know this: you must perish!"

Since the Flame in 1002 A.D. (or the enemy with King Zeal) is using its old version in 1 A.D. as a proxy, it pumps tons of energy into Antaeus making him a formidable opponent against Marle, Lucca, and Robo. They defeat him; Cedric acts as if nothing happened, confident that his using the Flame wiped him out. He then declares that since the Porre leader showed himself and died, he will now found Guardia, and makes preparations to return to Truce. The party find the RivenCrimse intact; stained with the blood of innocents, it appeals to Lucca as something that Magus could make good use of...

Crono Nightmare #2

Magus, Glenn, and Schala awake to find themselves in a maximum security section of a prison. They are utterly and totally sapped of energy. A guard comes in, and questions them; they have no replies, and the guard kicks Magus while he's down. This ... infuriates Magus, but he's powerless to do anything. They have nothing; Glenn attempts to make a reconciliation with Magus through laughing, and they joke away their tired history, even mentioning Cyrus. Schala meanwhile tells Magus that she is thankful for this last bit of life, feeling that she was fated to die in the fall of Zeal and the Ocean Palace Incident, and that she was never meant to live. Magus cannot take this, and stands up. He finds where sedatives were injected, and smashes the only computer screen reading schedules in the room. Using the fiberglass, he cuts himself and bleeds out some of the pooled sedative. The effects begin to diminish, and he can feel power enough to control magic return. Glenn comments on how his blood is very dark. Soldiers see him through the camera, and rush in; Magus sneers, and recognizing the guard who kicked him, casts his Black Hole spell. The guards are engulfed. Schala winces at the loss of life, but Glenn reminds her of the sheer gravity of their mission, even if it incurs cost.

They find a room with a computer terminal, and find out that they're in 2102 A.D. The Central Regime is emerging, but a resistance effort is remaining strong; they're in the maximum security prison of that resistance. They locate their weapons. They fight a series of difficult battles to climb out of the basements; along the way they find a deadly arm for Robo, the Clasp. A guard briefly seizes Schala, but Magus dispatches him. At the top of the facility, Serran awaits. He tells them that he escaped into the Flame, but that the bastard Glenn wounded him too greatly to attack on his own. Thus, he waited, and when the Flame displaced them here, he arrived and instated himself as director, and sprung all the difficulties and traps that befell the party. He notes that they are weakened, and will die. He shouts that his sword is tempered by a dark power, and begins the battle. After being defeated, Glenn worries that the sword was made of Dreamstone, but it disappears after he loses. He is a huddling mass on the floor; as payment for the trouble, Magus prepares to split him up the middle, but Glenn holds him back. He is merely a pawn of the Flame, and has been cast away. As the group prepare to escape the prison, Serran makes one last remark - that the prison is the progeny of Glenn.

Belthasar confirms prison is Vanguard establishment, and the very reason that contact with him was totally eliminated. He notes that for reasons unknown, shortly before the party ventured to get the Flame, time was horribly altered and Chronopolis was shunted to an area of temporal safety. This precluded any kind of contact, leaving the parties on their own. He notes that the Vanguard in general were somehow not wiped out from conflicts in the mid 1000's, and that this new incarnation is operating on some prophecy that causes nuclear winter in the near future. The party ransack the computer archives, and learn that deep within its motives are "prophecies" set out by a confidant of Crono, the Chief Knight of Guardia. It turns out that Lucca's diary entries prior to the hunt for the Flame, speaking of the incident in which Chronopolis came under attack and the future was altered (resulting in the elimination of hte Central Regime), caused the Vanguard not only to survive with something to cling to but also to try and instate this Central Regime. Their brightest minds believe that the only way to cause a world government to form is to wreak widespread destruction upon the world, frightening principalities into unconflicted union and removing all desire for war or other differences. Of key note here is that Lucca's diary caused this turn of events - her diary and it alone. Magus, Glenn, and Schala are then given the task of destroying the Vanguard. Plot to come on that point.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: SilentMartyr on April 10, 2005, 03:53:54 am
Wow that is a good plot. I would be happy to bug test it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 10, 2005, 04:02:09 am
Yeah, I've been knocking this stuff out with Hadriel. Still making edits...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 13, 2005, 12:21:52 pm
Okay here are some stupid ideas for the dark wishes:

Marles dark wish would be to not be Princess Nadia but instead take on the life that Lucca would have lived. Basiaciaclly Marle wanted to be born as a type of Lucca person. She would have been a nobody, who spent her time in machanics. There is no doubt about this since Marle did say that she would trade all her Princessness to be like Lucca in CT.
She would one day grow up to.... Control the Porre military?

Robo's dark wish would either be:
1) Be human with emotions and allow all robots to be human (aint that dark but meh) and maybe kill the real humans?
2) He becomes mother brain and instead and tortures humans to literally feel their emotions  :twisted:

Crono's dark wish would be to be a bad ass. Why can't he eat that mans bread, or steal Marles pendant? Why couldn't he live a life as a theif?

Lucca's wish would be somewhere where she would want alot of popularity and power, possibly switiching places with Marle and being Princess Lucca. She wants all the glam etc.

Just my own little idea: The Marle and Lucca dark wishes would calibrate because after the dark wishes are over, there could be a scene where both of them regret ever saying that they wanted to be in the others shoes or something :P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 13, 2005, 07:10:37 pm
Yeah, I forgot about those dark wishes.  That's a pretty good jumping-off point.  I especially like the Marle and Lucca reversal bit, because it gives a chance for some more sexual tension -- Marle would be gaining Lucca's genius, but losing Crono as a lover.  Lucca, on the other hand, would retain her knowledge via her powers of spirit, and in addition have Crono as a spouse, but then where would her friend Marle be?  Lavos would of course have to get a mention or two -- the chances of three people all being born at the same time with powers to defeat him are extraordinarily slim.  All one would have to do is alter one single piece of the genetic code that Crono, Lucca, or Marle was born with, and it might negate the possibility of assembling a force strong enough to defeat him.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 13, 2005, 08:18:19 pm
With the dark wishes, I thought it was going to be like a little dream. If you've ever played BoF, it's kinda like the first scene where Ryu and Bo go to the cave, but then wake up as adults alive.

Like as if somewhere in their wishes, they realise that it's wrong and wake up or something and then the flame is like "I have granted you these wishes, HOW DARE YOU TURN YOUR BACK ON ME!"

^lol
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 14, 2005, 03:25:49 am
It is going to be a sort of dream, except that it is very real.  It's only a matter of quantum uncertainty, something which Lavos has mastered and exercises through his proxy, the Frozen Flame.  The Frozen Flame would be trying to seduce them into the false worlds of the Tesseract to live their fantasy life -- as long as they are in the Tesseract's discarded timelines, they can't do anything about the Frozen Flame, Lavos, or any of his earthly minions.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 14, 2005, 03:54:18 am
Wow, this is getting juicy ^.^ Wow. Maybe one day, this should be writen into an Epic adventure novel :D
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 14, 2005, 04:13:49 am
Well, it would be kind of hard to be epic, per say. I think the primary defenitions of epic exclude anything of this sort, or even Chrono Trigger itself, from being epic. To be epic, at least so far as the first and second dictionary defenitions go, it must either be a long poem about heroes, or a long tale speaking of what a people believe to be their origins. Thus, technically, this isn't actually epic, and neither are a lot of things that people call epic.
But that aside...
Actually, that is a rather impressive storyline, and I comment ZeaLitY and Hadriel for it. It bears their marks, and as such stands as far more mature than most fan-written things. I haven't really followed this before now... this is an RPGmaker game, correct? I daresay that if you follow this outline, as you have it, you will without question have a tale not only tying together Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, but easily worthy of both. But, I suppose, what less could be expected when ZeaLitY has his hand in it? Nothing I see, however, strikes me as more interesting and alive feeling than the parts concerning old Guardia. I do not know what it is, but it seems so real, even in summary. Perhaps it is that I always pictured old Guardia as something of an ancient Britain, and that feeling of the chill fields and all of a mysterious and untamed land seem to echo here. More than that, however, it seems to bear another resemblence, and that is to the founding of the first colonies in Italy by Aeneas, in legend. His band of Trojans becomes allied with some tribes and wages war with a lord named Turnus, I believe. As we all know, Rome goes on to become one of the mightiest empires in all history, but it had its origins - at least in legend - in those battles. Something about this you wrote reminded me of that. Perhaps it is the reference to a divine lineage that made it all the more poignant. Aeneas was the son of Aphrodite, after all. But even the way he brings forward this relic - and that his whole episode was later lost in history - and there is single battle against the foe, seems to echo very much of an old legend, such as the founding of Rome. Fantasy though it is, it doesn't seem like some fans writing something that they think would be cool - it seems to bear the marks of the way things are in true legend.

And more than this, I am most pleased with these names you choose. These are no childish sounding fanfiction names. Cedric the Executor could step right from the history of the north - in sound, it fits the first king of a land perfectly, and I mean without any fault. And tying in to my ramblings about the origin of Rome... Antaeus sounds like some ancient Roman name, or one that would spring from a Latin myth. Did any of you perchance read such things before writing this? A foolish name can bring down even a good story - but these are, as I said, perfect. No silly fantasy names here.

But a question regarding something that gave me cause for curiosity. You name certain places and the like in a different language of sorts. Is that a true language, or did you invent those? If it is the latter, do you adhere to grammar and rules of sorts? I only ask because such things interest me, and that is the way in which I do things as that - as Hadriel may know, I devise my own writing systems for my stories.

And furthermore, a question addressed to Hadriel... it was for this, was it not, that you asked me for some Latin/Greek names for weaponry? Did you ever receive my reply?

Really, the only fault I have is that you seem to write with such imagination, such originality, it makes me doubt my own skill in the imagining and writing of tales, and in the originality of my stories.

Post Scriptum

"A thousand fires have sparked within my mind! I see everything! I know all! And I know this: you must perish!"

A very good line, this is. Make absolutely certain not to remove it. Perhaps I'm biased because I happen to use the word 'sparked' in a similar manner at whiles, but I really do think it is good.

Post Post Scriptum

Sorry, adding a thing yet again, but another comment. The character of this Cedric, actually, seems to me to be a very fiery and intense commander, focussed on conquest. Different than I imagined the first king, to be sure, and strange for a peaceful kingdom, but thinking about it, perfect. It just seems so incredibly realistic. Actually, he seems to me similar to Alexander of Macedonia...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 14, 2005, 12:21:31 pm
Just a question:

Will there be any Polyzomo (?) dolls in the game? Like the ones that had the black stone in CT. They were cool. Maybe you can make Mog the Moogle appear in one of the endings xD.

BTW, if Squareenix finds out about this, can they do anything? Or because this is being made in RPGmaker, they can't? Or if you don't destrobute it?

Sorry I don't know much about copyrights... Being young sucks >.>
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 14, 2005, 03:41:08 pm
Thanks for the comments. This will be a long post, so I'll knock out the easy stuff first:

Yeah sure, Poyozo Dolls. Since this is expansive fanwork, and doesn't intend to replace Cross or Trigger in any direct way, SquareEnix would lose much of its motivation to take action. It took an act of publicity titanism to get CTR noticed, anyway, so worrying about a C&D order is moot.

This is being made as a rom hack for Chrono Trigger, using primarily Temporal Flux. RPGMakerXP has crossed my mind, if not just for the music, but later in the process we can viably graft .spcs from other games like FF6 or Radical Dreamers into the rom. The full intent of this project, when it began, was to stake the ultimate claim in a fanmade game, and quite literally realize "Chrono Break" as a story tying the two games together.

Thanks hugely; I'm also very much intrigued by that sense of wilderness, living legends and indomitable spirits that reigned in ages ago. Just imagine, being in a Mead Hall at midnight, the vikings having gone to sleep -- imagine that for miles around, a cold wind is blowing, and the land stretches on forever in untamed, chilly fury. It is no wonder that beasts and giants were said to roam these lands. I was glad to think of that old Guardian knight for the story; I wanted to have someone from the past exist in 602 A.D. in that monastery to converse with the party, and even give Crono a run for his money in terms of how well he can uphold the kingdom.

The events of 1 A.D. always strike me as a huge turning point in the history of the Chrono series that has gone somewhat unnoticed. Radical Dreamers alludes to Guardia holding the Frozen Flame, and I concluded that it helped them achieve domination over the other tribes. However, much of the story comes from an abandoned fanfiction idea. When the Compendium was first built, Ramsus wrote a few sentences on an old King who suffered a complete physical and mental breakdown. I talked with him on the subject, and it was decided that I would write an extensive piece on the founding of Guardia. It would cover first the exploits of King Alfred, selected to lead the armies of Guardia over his older brother by the Flame's choosing. He was to maraud the northern continent of Zenan until it was firmly under his control, and then subdue Dorino, which would become the site of massive bloodshed. His ambition and foolishness would lead him, after conquering most of southern Zenan, to try and cleanse the Mystic strongholds on Medina as well; this would backfire completely, and he would be utterly destroyed. His son, Alexander, would later approach war in a much more professional light, using the Frozen Flame appropriately and not brooking war at the drop of a hat.

Cedric the Executor comes in from this old outline, complete with the Frozen Flame. I've played Medieval Total War and the Viking Invasion, and it seemed fitting to give him a title. I also liked the name Cedric, since it didn't seem too indigenous to British-rooted names. Hadriel and I couldn't figure out a title after I suggested Executor, so it stuck; it will play into a theme I'm about to elucidate. They're walking right in on Cedric's last conquests; as with any person, the Frozen Flame imparts a certain sense of zeal within him, and now that he has it, he can impose his will upon anything as he pleases. His gritty fighting and Old Testament brutality will accent another theme. Antaeus actually popped right into my mind, like pure, divine inspiration. I didn't even have to think; it was like a clear sound -- the Porrean commander will be Antaeus.

So far, Hadriel and I have been using Romance langauges + German as derivates for weapons. Geistrand meaning Ghost-Sword, and so on. The names of the ruins of ancient, pre-flight Zeal are all Norse nouns.

The ideas have been slow and forthcoming. The Vanguard was originally a plot device in modern times, but soon began to represent its own theme of good intentions ending in ruin, and the Romantic ideals of chivalry versus the equitable rights of modern civilization.

I have to leave, but I'm going to write about the themes later. As of now, Crimson Echoes is mostly on hold simply because I'd like to finish the Encyclopedia and other matters so that I can solicit the help of many people. I'm still attempting to learn rom hacking as it pertains to CT.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 14, 2005, 06:17:51 pm
quote="ZeaLitY"] it was like a clear sound -- the Porrean commander will be Antaeus.
[/quote]
A question: how is the pronounciation of it given? It might just be me, but it sounds Greco-Roman, and thus would be Unt(like in the word runt)-ai(like the y in my, only shorter)-oos(sort of like a German ü... no equivalent in English); Greek it would be AvTaius, I suppose.
Quote from: ZeaLitY

So far, Hadriel and I have been using Romance langauges + German as derivates for weapons. Geistrand meaning Ghost-Sword, and so on. The names of the ruins of ancient, pre-flight Zeal are all Norse nouns.

I thought they looked like real names. But are you certain on all of them? I was under the assumption that fate in Norse was something more like 'urd', thus Sigurd, Urd being one of the Norns. I may be wrong. Also, I question the Svyrdass. God is ‘gud’, from what my myths book tells me, thus Odin’s name Haptagud, god of cargoes. Thus would it not be more like Svyrdgud? Just a thought.
Also, Geistrand...I thought sword is schwert in German - apologies, I know how its said - I am technically half-German - but I have trouble spelling it. And isn't geist 'spirit', not 'ghost'... I can't remember if there's a distinction or not. I’ll have to ask my father. My mother just came by, and told me that ‘rand’ is an edge, so I suppose technically you’re saying ‘sprit-edge.’
Now this makes sense: Hadriel asked me a while back about some weapon names in Greek and Latin, and I researched for a while and gave him a reply, but I'm not sure what became of that. I ended up with 'falx obsura' and 'drepanon skieois' and things such as that, so I suppose those don't sound that great.
But a suggestion about the Zeal place names... old Norse and the like has northern feel, and Zeal does not, seeming more like Atlantis and something of the Classical world. I would rather suggest using a language that is more equatorly and ancient (or, personally, fully make up your own... that’s the most fun and rewarding, but from experience it takes forever to even devise a decently sized vocabulary.) But realistically, Greek might be possible. Names such as Anaximander sound pretty ancient. Sword-god would be a mixture of Theos and Ksiphos, then. I’d say go further back, though... perhaps ask Legend over at Chronicles for some Hebrew names for these things, or look in the old accounts of the Akkadians and Sumerians - place names such as Ekbatana and Ashur do have quite an ancient sound to them, as do names such as Marduk, Tiamat, and Ishtar. Those, and Greek, are what I borrowed from when I was making the Zeal language for my story.
Sorry if I'm a little too curious about the naming and such. As I've said, putting names and other languages into stories is a thing of great interest to me. To get the proper feel out of a place name, and make it seem as though it belongs and has meaning is a thing I put great worth in.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 14, 2005, 07:05:42 pm
Guardian, did you listen to the rearranged .spc files I posted?  You can use Winamp or download Meridian Advance, which is what I use.  More will come soon.  Next week is almost entirely free for me, so I'm going to get some work done on this and Edge of Forever, which I've greatly expanded the storyline to.

I'm looking at the Zeal section right now, trying to think of ways to improve it.  For some reason, I feel ill-at-ease about using Zeal, because of the interaction with Dalton and Queen Zeal -- I fear that that might mess up the heroes' original quest to destroy Lavos.  Some of the scenarios are still being edited -- when Zaperking mentioned the dream sequences, a couple of simple rearrangement ideas popped into my head.  I hope that these would further the storyline behind the Dragon Tooth and give it more of a plot function.

And yes, that's why I asked you for the weapon names.  We are going to use at least one, I believe -- the Ara Dei that you gave me, as Crono's ultimate weapon.  The Rainbow Sword, of course, needed a new name, and I still rather like Arco Iris, even though I'm horrible at Spanish.  Could I possibly borrow your brain for the duration of the IB Spanish exam?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 14, 2005, 08:28:34 pm
Here's an idea for one of Janus' weapons: 'Falx Saturnus' or 'Kronion Drepanon' ... if I got those right, those are either 'sickle of Saturn' or 'sickle of Kronos', essentially the same thing in Rome/Greek myth. For those that might not know, it was with this that Kronos castred his father Ouranos, and took dominion over the world. Later, Zeus fought Typheous with the same weapon.
And of what aid would my mind be for Spanish?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 14, 2005, 09:11:43 pm
Because you're better with foreign languages than I am.  Not like that's hard to do.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 14, 2005, 11:07:50 pm
Just on the language for Zeal Places, don't forget to use Arabic sounding names ^.^ I was going to suggest it, but I guess Guardian_Of_Ages got it down with the Marduk, Ishtar etc.
Maybe the whole point of Zeal was to make it seem Arabic when Square first made it? Kajar? The palaces have that Arabian arcitechture, the clothes etc. :)

On the topic of weapons:
If you're going to make weapons with really foreign names, are you going to add like a little description of them like the Key items in CC? I wouldn't really understand what a "Ara Dei" would be. Kinda makes me think of Aurorae though.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 14, 2005, 11:17:26 pm
Ara Dei is Latin.  It means Altar of God.  It's basically the Arco Iris put on temporal steroids.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on April 15, 2005, 08:03:03 am
Quote from: Zaperking
Just on the language for Zeal Places, don't forget to use Arabic sounding names ^.^ I was going to suggest it, but I guess Guardian_Of_Ages got it down with the Marduk, Ishtar etc.
Maybe the whole point of Zeal was to make it seem Arabic when Square first made it? Kajar? The palaces have that Arabian arcitechture, the clothes etc. :)

I also think Arabic names would sound good. If I recall correctly Schala is an Arabic name, Sarah is Hebrew, Kajar is Iranian, and Gaspar, Melchior and Belthasar are names from the Middle East, etc.
Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Quote from: ZeaLitY
it was like a clear sound -- the Porrean commander will be Antaeus.

A question: how is the pronounciation of it given? It might just be me, but it sounds Greco-Roman, and thus would be Unt(like in the word runt)-ai(like the y in my, only shorter)-oos(sort of like a German ü... no equivalent in English); Greek it would be AvTaius, I suppose.

I don't know if you took the name from this but Antaeus is actually Änti's Greek name. Änti was a giant from Berber mythology. He was supposed to be invincible as long as his feet were in contact with the ground. In Greek mythology, Antaeus was killed by Herakles who managed to lift him off the ground and strangle him.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on April 15, 2005, 04:52:17 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
I also think Arabic names would sound good. If I recall correctly Schala is an Arabic name, Sarah is Hebrew, Kajar is Iranian, and Gaspar, Melchior and Belthasar are names from the Middle East, etc.


Farsi. The language spoken in Iran is called Farsi. The neighborhood I grew up in was ~70% Persian, so I'd heard it called several names (Iranian, Persian) but Farsi is the "official" name.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on April 17, 2005, 11:16:11 am
The whole storyline sounds great ^^!
So are you gonna make a game outta this someday? If you are, all things you need are right there to grab. (<- Maybe CT rips of the maps? Since it would be a fangame, you can freely use 'em!)
As for names, it'd surely be cool to have names from different languages, but do try to keep 'em all in place, like not putting a German name among all Farsi names and stuff, that'd be a bit strange.
If you need people experienced in gamemaking, I suggest www.gamingw.com/forums to search for them. Anyway, it does sound good! (For some time I've really been wanting to see some new Chrono stuff...) Keep up the good work ^^! I'd help, but I just started with Latin class  this schoolyear.... If you need Dutch names, I'm your buddy x_x! (<But those sound boring, atleast to me.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: X ATM038x on April 17, 2005, 11:18:27 am
Erm, sorry, that was me x_x...
Anyways, having names as SuperZwaard in your games would definitly sound stupid, also Duister Zwaard or something (SuperSword, Dark Sword ;_;)
Shoosh, stupid guest ^^.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 18, 2005, 12:34:16 am
Gentlemen (and ladies, respectively) I humbly offer my services in such a worthy endeavor as this. In my occupation, I happen to be an entertainer; an actor. I have firm grasps of dialogue construction, having written (and in the process of writing) productions for community theater. I bow to the almighty force of this project, and would like a jump onto the project, if it would please its creators.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 18, 2005, 02:01:26 am
Quote from: Thorn
Gentlemen (and ladies, respectively) I humbly offer my services in such a worthy endeavor as this. In my occupation, I happen to be an entertainer; an actor. I have firm grasps of dialogue construction, having written (and in the process of writing) productions for community theater. I bow to the almighty force of this project, and would like a jump onto the project, if it would please its creators.

Wow. You guys (ZeaLitY and Hadriel) really seem to have a thing going here if professionals are offering to help. This is setting up to be a thing as looked for as the 'true CB'.
Quote from: Crono'99
I don't know if you took the name from this but Antaeus is actually Änti's Greek name. Änti was a giant from Berber mythology. He was supposed to be invincible as long as his feet were in contact with the ground. In Greek mythology, Antaeus was killed by Herakles who managed to lift him off the ground and strangle him.

Now THAT I did not remember. I just looked it up, and lo and behold! It is so! Antaios, even as you described. That makes the name all the more impressive, if it is actually a true Greek/Hellenic name that you used without knowing it. Kudos once again!
Alright, my apologies, but I've got a love for Greek, and as I keep saying all over the place, it is my intent to some day learn it and Latin. But in the meantime I content myself with browsing through the Lexicon to find the meanings of words, and did so with this one. Well, not only is it a name, it's a word proper. It means'set over against', 'right opposite', or, also, 'opposed to, hostile, hateful'... man, ZeaLitY, Hadriel... you had BETTER not change this name. It is, as I have said before, perfect for the part... even more so with this sort of meaning!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 18, 2005, 02:50:09 am
Yes, sorry my presence hasn't been known here for awhile. Thorn, would you be interested in reviewing the script as it comes? You'd get the beta patches.

To the public, the patches will be restricted, save for a demo here and there. Screenshots are fair game, however.

Anyway, I still have posts coming to talk about naming and also deal with some plot and theme issues. I just have to prepare the Compendium for its opening in the meantime. I checked the stats, and they're amazing; only 53% of our visitors come from the United States. Below the US is Canada, with 6%, and the EU (nonspecific) and Japan with 2%. Then comes a huge list of different countries, with six people visiting even from Israel. Yesterday, 700 unique people came to the site. I was blown away. I thought only a handful of hundreds actually visited, and just hung around all the time, but it seems that we're actually making it. I can't wait to open the site.

By the way, the "Programmer's Endign" for CTCE will feature anyone who would like to be in it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 18, 2005, 07:09:44 pm
Guardian: Yes, as a matter of fact we're changing the name to Pee Fee Bowlrunches.   :mrgreen:

Thorn: I looked up your site -- some pretty awesome stuff.  You can definitely review the script as it comes if you want.

The major thing on my mind right now is what to name the Ancient boss in the first 11,998 B.C. scenario.  My first thought was Baal, after the pagan god of fertility so ubiquitous in the Torah.  Either that or Molech, the other pagan god most frequently mentioned -- the Bible records that worshippers of Molech sacrificed even children to their god.  However, both of those names have been yoinked already, so I'm a bit hesitant to use them without discussion -- Baal for the Diablo series, and Molech for Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  I would advocate the usage of Cthulhu, except that Cthulhu is too similar to Lavos -- not to mention that most people know about him.  They'd expect Cthulhu to be this insanely hyper-strong monster that nobody could beat, like Draco'dur in World of Warcraft or Uber Diablo.

Then again, we do need one of those as the obligatory optional boss for late in the game.  Thoughts?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 18, 2005, 07:31:49 pm
I'm thinking that the ancient ones can appear in the Chrono Compendium library at Chronopolis as well as in the game. The Rainbow Shell could be the shell of a great, ancient nautilus, crushed beneath Lavos's weight and its materials refined in the heat. I've got a name for the enemy near Magus -- Glacek. At first, I was thinking something with a hard K sound, like Kracious, and the ice motif returned to me. I was able to integrate that k into the sleekness of "glace." What do you think?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: GreenGannon on April 18, 2005, 07:56:14 pm
I just want to throw in my $0.02.

I was thinking, and what I liked about the games, was that there was always some sense of failure. Just that part to prove that the heroes are still human.

In CT, it was overestimating their strength, thus causing the death of Crono, (supposedly--although later proven wrong) Schala, and the rise of the Black Omen.

In CC, it was when the player realized that the Dragon Gods had used them to defeat FATE and free itself.

I just think it would be a nice touch to include something along these lines.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 18, 2005, 08:04:45 pm
There's tragedy out the arse.  We've made damn sure of that.

In researching songs to rearrange, I've come to the conclusion that not all of them need remixes.  I'd like people to post a list of what songs need to be rearranged.  Please do not include the following, as they are either already under way, finished, or simply taken for granted:

-- Corridors of Time
-- Magus' Theme
-- Chrono Trigger Main Title
-- Peaceful Days
-- Morning Sunlight
-- At the Bottom of the Night
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 18, 2005, 09:52:31 pm
Quote from: Hadriel

The major thing on my mind right now is what to name the Ancient boss in the first 11,998 B.C. scenario.  My first thought was Baal, after the pagan god of fertility so ubiquitous in the Torah.  Either that or Molech, the other pagan god most frequently mentioned -- the Bible records that worshippers of Molech sacrificed even children to their god.  However, both of those names have been yoinked already, so I'm a bit hesitant to use them without discussion -- Baal for the Diablo series, and Molech for Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  I would advocate the usage of Cthulhu, except that Cthulhu is too similar to Lavos -- not to mention that most people know about him.  They'd expect Cthulhu to be this insanely hyper-strong monster that nobody could beat, like Draco'dur in World of Warcraft or Uber Diablo.

Then again, we do need one of those as the obligatory optional boss for late in the game.  Thoughts?

Well, Baal is simply 'lord', as I think you know. So, Molech is out? How about Mot, the Caananite god of the underworld? Too short probably.
Just be careful that you don't take something from myth just for the heck of it. It's okay to some extent, but gets obsurd when it comes to something like Xenosaga's 'Nephilim' which, at least as far as the first game portrayed, bore absolutely no resemblence at all to the source of the name; an ethereal woman can hardly be described as a giant, or a fallen hero of old, after all. That's just sloppy storytelling from people who think it cool to throw in Biblical/mythical allusions for the heck of it, but leaves those who actually know it scratching their head. Xenosaga seemed especially bad for that, actually.
Anyway... names... well, if it is some ancient lord, just about any of the gods of the middle-eastern regions will do. I'll rattle off as many as I can remember: Tanith, Astarte, Enlil, Enki, Tiamat, Marduk, Ea, Apsu, Anu, Ishtar, Innana, Kishar, Anshar, Qingu... you could probably get this if you went to the Encyclopedia Mythica, you know. I'd suggest looking there through the list of god's names till you find one that catches your eye, and then check to see if it is at all similar.
Also, and this can also be looked up on the Encyclopedia Mythica, perhaps for a Hellenic connection, some ancient Greek titan may work - although the more eastern names would likely be better. Just for suggestion's sake, I'll see if I can remember a few... One of the Hundred-handed, perhaps (they have a Greek name I cannot remember at the time.) There is also Atlas, though he is quite well known. Okeanos, the Sea, might be alright, depending on the nature of this ancient thing. Typheous (the y is actually ü, I think. And the spelling may be a little wrong...) He is last of the Titans, whom Zeus himself fights with the sickle of Kronos. Hesiod gives a full list, but I think Theogony went back to the library already, so I can't look them up. There are a bunch that are ancient gods, but aren't considered Titans, like Styx, or Erebos, Night, etc.
Furthermore, if you want something connected to ice, I'd think that, although the sound is different, Norse would likely have more of that sort. Ymir is the great ice giant, killed by Odin and his brethren. Thrym is another ice giant, I think, and Skadi, his daughter, though she marries Njord of the Vanir, is also of that kin and of a more chill-windy nature.
As far as other made-up names... those don't have the allusive history behind them (and in RPGs, cleverly done allusions are very good, indeed. I'd think it one of the hallmarks of CT, as well) but, seeing as ZeaLitY seems to have started in that vein, I'll try as well. To me, made up names must always have a meaning, so I'll try and wrack my brain to see what I can remember from all the words/names I've made up in the past. If the motif is to be ice, that is 'tryst' to me, so... hmmm... ancient is 'nemoth', but that doesn't exactly match. Let's see... Trystel, Trystanos, Heltryst, Heldain, Trysteth, Tiamtryst, Heldiom... no good ones are coming to me. I would need my language's dictionary with me, and they've got all more northern sounds, anyway.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
I'm thinking that the ancient ones can appear in the Chrono Compendium library at Chronopolis as well as in the game. The Rainbow Shell could be the shell of a great, ancient nautilus, crushed beneath Lavos's weight and its materials refined in the heat. I've got a name for the enemy near Magus -- Glacek. At first, I was thinking something with a hard K sound, like Kracious, and the ice motif returned to me. I was able to integrate that k into the sleekness of "glace." What do you think?

If that's how you'd wish to pronounce it, then I'd recommend using an s in the place of the c. I've got something of a dislike for that letter, as it causes endless confusion in most fantasy names. So it should probably be spelled Glasek to avoid confusion.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 18, 2005, 10:48:05 pm
I'm just looking for the meaning -- almost any name will do as long as it conveys that.  But beyond that, this enemy shouldn't exist if it weren't for the machinations of Lavos.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 18, 2005, 11:07:32 pm
I'm honored to be part of this project (and also, mind you, my site hasn't truly been updated in GOD knows how long...just because you mentioned it, I'm probably go and update it now...).

Anyways, yes, I'd like a poke at the script or even a beta patch of the game, just to see where things are turning with it.

On a side note, not to criticize, but I think it may be a little...too deep to be thinking of a name that stems from Mesopotamian Mythos...I like allussions and all, they're great, aye...but perhaps one may find just as much pleasure in finding their own name for such a boss?

However, if mythos it is, the mythos it must be, and I have my suggestions:

Fenris (alt. spelling of Fenrir, son of Loki in Norse Mythos meant to devour...I believ Odin at the end-of-the-world happening, Ragnarok...but I'm sure you all knew that already anyhow, lol.)

Terresc/Terresque (An ancient French dragon, rumored to have been killed by St. Whats-her-name that was the sister of the Biblical figure Lazarus [no, I'm not biblically versed, please forgive...] that can easily be a 'beast'.)

Gorgon (Classic Greek Mythos, the species name of Medusa and her sisters.)

As for made up names...
Glacimto/Glasimto (Latin words ice and slip mashed together)
Cryol/Cryot/Cryos/Cryotor/ Cryops (Cryo with ending consant(s))
Oresbuz (Just sounds plain cold...HINT: Switch the z and the s, and reverse)
Duikill (Literally gibberish, insipred somehow by liquid?)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 18, 2005, 11:52:29 pm
Yosh. When we get a demo out, this will be smashing. I still have to prepare the Compendium for opening, but this support is phenomenal.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 19, 2005, 04:16:56 am
Alright, if it's for meaning, it would be helpful to know exactly what sort of creature it is. Is it of ice? Is it of fire? Is it inherently evil, or simply tormented? A beast or in the shape of a man? Cunning with an intelligent mind, or beastlike? Such things would be helpful in suggesting this. I know my western myths alright, but in order to suggest something that works I would need to know the specifics. But until such a time as you say the exact nature, here are more detailed descriptions of some of those I mentioned.

Tiamat - The ancient godess of the under-earth salt water, and thus chaos, in Babylonian myth, she is often thought to have been in the shape of a dragon, but no real evidence supports this. She was the supreme ruler of all things at one time, but became annoyed with her noisy children, the younger gods, and in time rose against them to destroy them, whereat she was defeated by the god Marduk, who then rose to become the chief god, after the fashion of Kronos defeating Ouranos.

Qingu (Kingu) - he is the champion of Tiamat's hosts after the defeat of her consort Apsu by Enki. He is given by her the Tablets of Destiny which control reality. When Tiamat is defeated, he is killed and his blood mingled with mud to create men... thus making men inherently evil.

Astarte/Inanna/Ishtar - all inherently the same godess of war/love, save for being different names in different regions (respectively Caanan - I think, maybe Phonecia -, Sumeria, and Akkadia/Babylon)

That's all of the Mesopotamian I'd recommend. The others seem too 'good' to be an enemy (such as Marduk.) The advantage to these Middle-Eastern names is that they fit better with the feel of Kajar and Enhasa, and the Zeal names already existant.

In the matter of using allusions in naming these things... I would think that it lends a certain depth to a foe to have them connected with an evil from myth. Were it to be something such as Tiamat, for example, anyone that knows of Tiamat will go 'aha, this thing is ancient and powerful, and embodies chaos.' Of course, that's why the similarities must be there. It brings to the boss all these attributes of its namesake, basically. Otherwise, you lose something of the meaning in the name, and it just becomes a name, rather than a developed idea, see?

Of course, Thorn is right in saying that it can be fun to make up one's own names... being able to do this is something I pride myself on - I do it all the time using my Nephilim/Zeal language in my stories, because writing fantasy demands such a vast array of unique names - though usually I'm more focussed on meaning than on making it sound cool. Always serious, but never silly, I'm far too grim in writing for that. I'm finally at home, so I can look at my 'dictionary' I've written for it... well... 'chill' is 'nichaiet', but that's far too long for any name. Let's see, as far as names go... Kalaknos (or, Kalachnos, in higher dialects - and that's an aspirated ch, not an English-type one) is 'son of a demon', but really, without knowing more about this foe, it is hard for me to devise any names.  And ummm... does anybody care? Because I wager I'm the only one that's fixated on his made-up names having to have meaning.

Post Scriptum

Oh, and just to confirm it, yes, Fenris the great Wolf was destined to devour Odin at Ragarok, but was fated to in turn die to the avenging stroke of Vidar, I think it was, one of Odin's sons, who was to tear the wolf apart from the jaws - and, incidentally, was to be one of the few to actually outlive that dire day.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 19, 2005, 04:54:36 am
Well, It'd be easier to find a name for this ancient boss if you told us it's attrabutes. Figure, Element/magic, strength? Then we could find a name suitable.

I'm thinking on the lines of a greek name. Zeal sometimes reminds me of Atlantis, thought to once have been a part of the island of Crete. If this boss was like a stone golem type monster with like cryptic writing all over its body, i would have probably thought Atlantis. So without a desription of it, finding a name could be hard >.>
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2005, 09:45:40 am
Well, I don't want to default on a yeti, so I was thinking of something more along the lines of FF6's Whelk. That'd be copying off the shell too much though, since we already have an ancient nautilus that once occupied the Rainbow Shell. I thus am thinking of a sort of ravenous, almost wolf-like, almost bi-pedal creature that isn't covered in hair, and is muscular with a blue body. He isn't modern in his fighting style however, defaulting on his ancient standing; his use of magic against the party will be a wakeup call to the player. He'll have high HP and take a while to erode away.

Chronopolis will reveal that mythology placed him as a sort of mountain guardian, but not "good" in any way. He was thought to dwell in darkness and in deep chasms in the mountains, only emerging to viciously eat and howl in the north wind.

How's that?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2005, 12:34:40 pm
I'm toying with the idea of a real, Chrono mythology, with some made up names and some historical/real myth names. To have structure, we'd need to dictate figures that need to be in the mythos. Firstly, these groups would get their own sets:

Iokans (perhaps fire, earth)
Larubans (sky oriented, due to possible Zeal ancestorship)

Lavos and the approaching Ice Age would alter the mythologies. The Iokans, in Crimson Echoes, head underground, while the Larubans manage to subsist on a warm plot of land, under which the Flame is buried leagues down in a cavern (which will be discovered in 3000000 b.C.). The party must visit the Larubans in a sidequest.

The Iokans would societally become the Earthbound, while the Larubans would become Zealians. The Flame would radically alter mythology, somewhat, but it'd be more in a force rather than the flame itself, as the Flame is supposed to be Zeal's ultimate secret (deals with CE plot too). So, three more groups:

Pre-Flight/Sun Stone Civilization
Earthbound
Zealians

PF/SSC are shown in Crimson Echoes in the five ruins of 11998 B.C. After Zeal falls, we have a new race of people, the combined Earthbound/Zeal survivors. These eventually scatter once the land warms, and form basic tribes. These tribes will be represented:

Guardia
Dorino
Choras
Porre

The others die out, so they may be of little regard. Guardia, Dorino, and Choras need to share a common root in a holy mother of some kind, shown in Manoria Cathedral. I say this because Dorino is also known as San Dorino, making it seem like a very holy city (it has a nun), and Choras is a strong ally of Guardia (based on the theory that the Northern Ruins was a seat of government at one time). Additionally, Choras after 600 A.D. has the legends of Cyrus and Glenn (said by many in Chrono Trigger, and considered the nation's guardians). Lastly, Guardia would also have some concept of the Frozen Flame, since they'll beat everyone else with it and unite the other tribes. Porre can expand on the Antaeus motif.

~

Keep in mind that these will pop in dialogue, but the lengthy explanations will be kept in the Chrono Compendium in Chronopolis. The objective here is to make something relatively simple and fitting to each era and civilization.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 19, 2005, 03:01:25 pm
Aye, to the proof, as mountains are to winds; they shake not though they blow perpetually.

I'm awfully heartset, especially after the description of the first Ancient One, on the name Fenris...it's perfeclty fitting if an alusion is what you want made.

Other wise, we're thinking wolfish...wolfish...wolfish...

Nothing coming. My suggestions above still stand. However, if it is so to please, we could simply call each Ancient One 'Ancient of ____' and leave it at that, leaving players to call them, cumulatively, 'The Ancients' or 'The Ancient Ones'. I personally would name them rather than leave them be, but 'tis thine discretion of course.

As to Mythology, I'd agree for the most part on the ideas you've outlined there. However, the advent of the Mystics is rather unclear in the progression of civilization...just because they are monsters doesn't mean one can't consider them a race?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2005, 04:27:34 pm
Yeah, I sort of left them out. By all means, they can be included.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 19, 2005, 04:32:27 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Well, I don't want to default on a yeti, so I was thinking of something more along the lines of FF6's Whelk. That'd be copying off the shell too much though, since we already have an ancient nautilus that once occupied the Rainbow Shell. I thus am thinking of a sort of ravenous, almost wolf-like, almost bi-pedal creature that isn't covered in hair, and is muscular with a blue body. He isn't modern in his fighting style however, defaulting on his ancient standing; his use of magic against the party will be a wakeup call to the player. He'll have high HP and take a while to erode away.

Chronopolis will reveal that mythology placed him as a sort of mountain guardian, but not "good" in any way. He was thought to dwell in darkness and in deep chasms in the mountains, only emerging to viciously eat and howl in the north wind.

How's that?


Well, if that is the case, then I would think that the Fenris Wolf does not work all that well: the Wolf has hair, and is not blue, and neither is he of caves: he is enchanined upon in island in Asgard. That said, I think Norse is the only myths with something like this.
Personally, I think that sounds more akin to a troll, so perhaps Geriodurr the Troll King? He lives in caves.
Actually, Loki might even be better. He is enchanied at a cave at the end of the world, with the venom of a snake perpetually dripping on him, in punishment for his slaying of Baldur the Beautiful. The groaning of the earth is his pained cry. Moreover, I've seen several depections of him with a blue body. And yet again, if you wish him more beastlike... Loki is a shapeshifter. He bore Sleipnir in the shape of a mare, was captured by a troll when he flew about as a hawk, and took many other forms, even flies. And the Fenris Wolf is his son. Moreover, Loki is a very ancient god, of giant-kin, and of about the same age as Odin himself (who held him to be a blood-brother, before his treacherous turn.) Thus, for connections, I would council Loki, if anything.
However, on hearing that description, there does not appear to be anything that is close enough in myth. Anything such as Fenris or Loki are just faint connections and, in my opinion, not near enough to warrant using the name. It would be odd to anyone that actually knew the things. I'd council then making up a good name, and giving it a meaning in context of some greater Zeal history or language, connecting it to other meanings, and giving it mythical identification. The standards of good fantasy writing, basically.

Quote from: ZeaLitY

I'm toying with the idea of a real, Chrono mythology, with some made up names and some historical/real myth names. To have structure, we'd need to dictate figures that need to be in the mythos. Firstly, these groups would get their own sets:

Iokans (perhaps fire, earth)
Larubans (sky oriented, due to possible Zeal ancestorship)


Now THIS sort of thing is nearest to me - it fires my heart even to hear it mentioned. Varied myths and legends, the feigning of such things for imagined people, and the devising of histories... they're the things my hand is good at, at least when my mind is thinking in such ways (of late I've been out of those moods due to school-work, and exhaustion is never good for the old imagination.)
If you need any help writing this sort of thing, and penning things down in a more legendary style, I might be able to aid you. At the moment I've lost my creative edge, and so quite to my dismay I cannot bring forth that certain legendary style I love, but with rest and time I think it will return.

Quote from: ZeaLitY

Lavos and the approaching Ice Age would alter the mythologies. The Iokans, in Crimson Echoes, head underground, while the Larubans manage to subsist on a warm plot of land, under which the Flame is buried leagues down in a cavern (which will be discovered in 3000000 b.C.). The party must visit the Larubans in a sidequest.
 


Remember that mythology, technically speaking, tells of the relation betwixt the divinities and nature, thus tales such as the Enuma Elish, Genesis, Theogony, and those sorts of things. Many of the other tales are more legendary in nature.

Quote from: ZeaLitY

The Iokans would societally become the Earthbound, while the Larubans would become Zealians. The Flame would radically alter mythology, somewhat, but it'd be more in a force rather than the flame itself, as the Flame is supposed to be Zeal's ultimate secret (deals with CE plot too). So, three more groups:

Pre-Flight/Sun Stone Civilization
Earthbound
Zealians

PF/SSC are shown in Crimson Echoes in the five ruins of 11998 B.C. After Zeal falls, we have a new race of people, the combined Earthbound/Zeal survivors. These eventually scatter once the land warms, and form basic tribes. These tribes will be represented:

Guardia
Dorino
Choras
Porre

The others die out, so they may be of little regard. Guardia, Dorino, and Choras need to share a common root in a holy mother of some kind, shown in Manoria Cathedral. I say this because Dorino is also known as San Dorino, making it seem like a very holy city (it has a nun), and Choras is a strong ally of Guardia (based on the theory that the Northern Ruins was a seat of government at one time). Additionally, Choras after 600 A.D. has the legends of Cyrus and Glenn (said by many in Chrono Trigger, and considered the nation's guardians). Lastly, Guardia would also have some concept of the Frozen Flame, since they'll beat everyone else with it and unite the other tribes. Porre can expand on the Antaeus motif.

~

Keep in mind that these will pop in dialogue, but the lengthy explanations will be kept in the Chrono Compendium in Chronopolis. The objective here is to make something relatively simple and fitting to each era and civilization.

As I said, if you need help, I may be able to aid you, if I'm feeling up to it. If nothing else, I could - I think, at least - make it sound stylistically so. I've come to find that myth and legend has nothing to do with using the old pronouns thee and thou and all that sort of thing - which seems most people do - but is more apparent in a very formal style and syntax. It's fine line difficult to describe which, as I've said, I'm unable to accomplish at the moment, but will probably return to me in a few weeks time. I've done it before, after all, and I wager - though it's only a guess - that I've done more of this sort of thing than most here, and have written in legendary style even regarding Zeal - it's my most dear style, after all. For those that know a little of my writing (are there any?) you might know that I have quite the serious streak in it, and falter in doing anything comedic. That may lead to melancholy story-telling, but is also good for the mode of myth and legend.
As an example, these are the things I had written regarding the legendary founding of Zeal:
http://www.geocities.com/twilight_of_fate/ZealHistory.htm
And of the children of Zeal:
http://www.geocities.com/twilight_of_fate/ZealDescendants.htm
As far as experience writing mythically/legendarially goes, I also wrote a short Norse myth, and am keeping alive a certain legendary style in my later writing that I am now working on, completing it with a full history, feigned and legendary.
So, like I said, if you have any questions about writing myths and legends, I'll help if I can. It'll be dependant on time constraints, and what mood I'm in - I'm quite the uncertain writer, after all, and sometimes I just lost my style for a while, especially when I'm tired. If figure you'll still wish to write these things yourself, but I might be able to give suggestions, if you happen to need them.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 19, 2005, 05:53:38 pm
Okay, well by its description, it doesn't really seem very "BEHOLD! THE ANCIENT OF _______" etc. Just seems like an overpowerful boss with no real plot (no offense). BTW, I was kinda thinking you were explaining a blue herkan when you were describing it lol.

As for names, anything anglo-saxon might do? Wereris?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2005, 06:17:00 pm
Perhaps Fenris then. I can't even conceptualize my earlier concept of the monster, and it has evolved into something wolfish.

GoA, would you want to flesh out pantheons and their members? The issue here is just usage. We can stick as much text as we want into the game; however, how much would be practical or interesting to the players? Connections with the times and peoples must be present. Anyway, these are broad questions anyone can help answer.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on April 19, 2005, 08:31:09 pm
If I recal, and GoA, confirm or deny, but sacrifice to Molech involved worshipers, who lived in the Hebron Valley (Hell) heating a bronze idol until it was glowing hot, and then placing an infant in it's cradled hands. Certainly appropriate for a Fire based enemy I would think.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 19, 2005, 09:32:41 pm
Now, for my clarification, there is an "Ancient One" per Era, or is there an "Ancient One" per group of peoples? This makes things much easier then to think about.

As to Fenris, if I'm not mistaken he was actually chained inside a cave midway between Asgard and Midgard, but I could be wrong. As for the idea of the creature, I should liken to perhaps make myself a forward guest to sketch it and upload to my own site for purveyance...I'll see what I can do there, just for an idea.

Also, as to the Mystics, they would probably derive from the Kilwalians / stray animalia of sorts that stayed on the surface and willed themselves to survive...or better yet, they hid within what would eventually be the Magic Cave, which had a close proximity with the strata contianing the Frozen Flame, mutating them and allowing them to harness magic along with the Larubans...an totally underground society, such as the Mud Imp and the beasts in Terra Cave, would therefore exist well enough to their own power in the Dark Ages, then obviously from there forward they would easily.

P.S.:
If you, Zeality or Hadriel, have begun the script for the dialogue/events of the game I would be most humbled to view it and develop the dialogue if you wish.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 19, 2005, 10:18:37 pm
The Mystics are sentient -- I'd say that elevates them above monsters.  Others might not see it that way, especially humans.

There isn't exactly an "Ancient" in each era -- more like a pawn.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 19, 2005, 10:33:09 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
The Mystics are sentient -- I'd say that elevates them above monsters.  Others might not see it that way, especially humans.


Oh, naturally they are. I'm just giving them an 'evolution' or rather a 'coming of' in a way. After all, the first Mystic-like enemies are the imps in 12,000 B.C.. There aren't any in 65 mil BC at all, so one must imagine their origins.

Quote from: Hadriel
There isn't exactly an "Ancient" in each era -- more like a pawn.


Well of these Ancients, or rather pawns, I'd just like to know how many of these 'creatures/people/things' are there and what do each represent? The various scenarios? I.E., the Porrean Assassin for some time is a 'pawn'?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2005, 11:19:56 pm
Well, it's simply a plot device. One of the "Ancient Ones;" it's intended to be mystical and aloof. I hadn't planned on placing one in every era.

Actually right now I'm getting really paranoid about the actual Temporal Flux hacking. Event coding is time-consuming and I still feel like an utter and complete novice; I tried earlier to set up conversation with King Guardia, but saved my progress and quit. I'm also completely terrified at the limits of the CT rom, and restrictions we may encounter.

But moreover, it's just the feeling of being totally unskilled in what we need to do. The only way of ascertaining information is comparing events with other stuff, but I still haven't exactly learned bitmath yet, and I'd rather not pester JLukas, Chickenlump, or Geiger constantly. What scares me further is that they're about the only people right now experienced; DDK did work with Gates somewhat, but most the rom hacking knowledge is in their hands.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 19, 2005, 11:28:13 pm
Always other engines it can be made on, with albeit with heavy programming to simulate the battle system. RPG Maker XP and RPG Maker 2003 are my personal favorites, but there are others of course.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 19, 2005, 11:55:38 pm
That's run through my mind, the only drawbacks being

-Several megs compared to relatively few
-Having to copy CT tilesets and rebuild them piece by piece. Excruciating.

The music is a strong argument in its favor. I sort of feel like there's something in making the first (CT related), and possibly the greatest rom hack ever.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 12:18:40 am
If dealing with the way the game codes things isn't too hard, I would really recommend a ROM edit rather than using RPG Maker software.  It'd just be a lot more elegant.  From my experience with RPG Maker, it A) is fairly inflexible B) runs only on Windows C) can't produce stand-alone executable files [I'm not sure if newer version can do that] D) relies on the user's soundfont (?) for MIDI playback, which means awful results with the default Windows one.  A ROM edit can be played on any OS with an SNES emulator--I don't know much about this, but there's probably even a way to get it on a physical cartridge if so desired--and you have all of the game's systems and stuff there already, so if you're trying to make something in the game's "mold," it's perfect.  I understand that that the event languages can be arcane and annoying, though.  Would it help at all if the ROM editor featured a higher-level way to edit, with commonly used structures getting collapsed into single commands, or something like that?  I dunno, just a suggestion.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 20, 2005, 12:21:17 am
Yeah, that'd make trivial stuff like adding in NPCs take less time, but I suppose high end options will be available once Temporal Flux enters into later stages of development. 2.0 will be a great leap forward. It depends whether Geiger wants to pursue it or work with other projects, I guess.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 20, 2005, 02:11:49 pm
The Mystic mythology sounds highly intriguing, though I'm not sure how much of it can be incorporated without seeming superfluous.  That may depend on TF's development and capabilities.

I was talking to ZeaLitY last night about how we have a complicated storyline here, and I didn't want it to turn out like something by Charles Dickens, who's so incredibly verbose that his "literature" makes 99% of a contemporary audience run screaming in unabashed terror.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 20, 2005, 04:21:46 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
GoA, would you want to flesh out pantheons and their members? The issue here is just usage. We can stick as much text as we want into the game; however, how much would be practical or interesting to the players? Connections with the times and peoples must be present. Anyway, these are broad questions anyone can help answer.

I'll see if my time permits when my writing mood returns - I've actually got work this summer, as opposed to last. The only other problems I could forsee in doing that is that, while my style is certainly of that sort, I'm not certain whether my ideas of mythology and the like would be in accordance with what you want. Perhaps it would be best if you were to write down most of the things, and I could just proofread/edit? I'm just worried about getting carried away in my zeal, which I am prone to do now and again. Moreover, I think you may have a point, that few people will really care overmuch. It is actually more part of the background and setting than anything else, and lend the feel of a more complete world, rather than being anything neccessary to the plot. Anyway, perhaps it would be best if I just helped as an advisor of sorts in those matters.
But I wager it'll be a while before you get to the point where you will be looking at anything like this, eh?
Quote from: ZeaLitY

Well, it's simply a plot device. One of the "Ancient Ones;" it's intended to be mystical and aloof. I hadn't planned on placing one in every era.

I would advise against any use of the name 'Ancient One'; it's overused and cliched, and unless that's what you're looking for, I'd recommend something a little different. Even 'Ancient Lord' would serve the purpose here, although there are a myriad of other possibilities. But I would personally say to stray away from something so often used. This is Chrono Trigger, after all. It's not mainstream.

Finally, regarding what someone said about using other editors... well, I was looking at RPGmakerXP yesterday, and I rather think that 2003 was better. Unless someone knows how to change battle systems and such things, that is. Visually it's nicer, but it isn't very versitile. In contrast, 2003 is versitile so some degree: as opposed to what was said, they can all be self-executable, are quite versitile if you know what you're doing, and the newer ones can play MP3's... yet even so, I think it would be a difficult thing to get right with any RPGmaker, unless you had some skilled programmers that could mess around with the battle systems.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 20, 2005, 06:03:09 pm
Well, we hadn't planned on using the name "Ancient One" in the script -- as you said, it's Chrono, not some random bit of derivative fantasy crap that takes every chance it gets to rip off Tolkien & Co. (or to rip off the people who ripped them off.)  It's just going to be a name that is recognizable as a part of modern mythology -- the being will tie into the Lavos storyline and probably into any Mystic mythology we incorporate.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 20, 2005, 06:30:23 pm
Well, the name is supposed to make it really foreboding. When they ask the villagers about the mountains across the horizon, he's supposed to say something to scare them, like "some ancient beast has claimed it as its domain."
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 21, 2005, 12:12:25 am
Well, Tolkien has some interesting ways of saying things that, interestingly enough, aren't often used. If you were to speak of it as something from the 'old world', or even 'from an older world'. Say, perhaps, 'it is a thing of the older world, born long before the children of glorious Zeal rose to hold dominion over these lands; it is the haunter of the dark and waste places, and bows only to such villinous powers as held sway in the long ages of the past. Kalaknash, we name it, like the remorseless north-wind. Do not seek it out! It is most perilous to cross, and surpassing in strength of sinew and cunning sigaldry, or so the grey-bearded ones of my people say - some ill earned power rests within its heart given, perhaps, by the terrible one who walked the paths of the world in the lawless years. I beg you, lords, take heed to the words of a simple man, and do not follow that path, for surely but death awaits you. Take evening meal with us, and forget such a folly-ridden course... toils of pride bring one only to ruin, and the high hearted are cast down if they over-reach their might.'
Just a thought. My common form of dialogue - in other words, it was supposed to be one line, but I got carried away. I'm borrowing things left and right in that: sigaldry a word I've only seen used by Tolkien; high-hearted a word used to describe the father of Diomedes in the Iliad; etc. But I just tossed in Kalaknash, of my own invention, for the heck of it. And take that only as a very rough thing, as I am currently in more tired a state than I have every before been in my life, and most everything is half dream-like. I should think far better, and be able to measure the fashion of these thing better, if I were in full command of my mind.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 21, 2005, 11:40:18 pm
How about this instead for the dialogue:

"It is a beast of the ancient world, born long before Zeal laid claim to these lands.  Our people know it as (insert name here) the (insert destructive honorific here).  Death is all that it knows -- seek it out and it will impart this knowledge to you in throes of agony."

Just as ominous, half the wordage.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 22, 2005, 10:41:01 pm
Hmmm... perhaps you're right about the length, though one cannot shirk away from it if one is to attempt the epic voice. Epic is in origin poetry, and poetry neccessitates wordage.

Actually, the basic basis for that was, I think, in feel at least, the way in which Faramir speak of Cirith Ungol. It's been some years since I last read LOTR to actually remember quite what is said (I should go look that up), but the feel of it was in my mind when I wrote that, and it seemed a similar sort of thing. Let me look it up again... ah, here it is:
'Nothing certain,' said Faramir. 'We of Gondor do not ever pass east of the Road in these days, and none of us younger men has ever done so, nor has any of us set foot upon the Mountains of Shadow. Of them we know only old report and the rumour of bygone days. But there is some dark terror that dwells in the passes above Minas Morgul. If Cirith Ungol is named, old men and masters of lore will blanch and fall silent.'
As you no doubt already know, I look to LOTR in most of these matters, and the way terror of a certain place with an ill-gotten beast seemed to most nearly echo with this. Though, as I said, I was thinking only of feeling, and of very old memory.

Anyway, a few notes though on such a shorter segment. I think 'thing' contains more of an ominous sound than 'beast'. The latter implies it is some natural, or semi-natural, creature of great strength. The former speaks more of something wholly unknown. I would probably say: 'It is a thing of an older world, born in the age before the children of Zeal laid claim to these lands. What -who knows? - it is a thing of terror, fearful Zairato. Its love is in but death - surely, if you seek it out, your toil will only be vain-glorious.'

Shorter? I actually tended to use 'children of Zeal' to refer to the people of Zeal as a whole. Sounds better than Zealian or Zealot, and means essentially the same thing, as people are often referred to as children of their land, metaphorically speaking.

A suggestion, though, don't use too many of those honourifics. It works fine for your Cedric, but for anything evil... don't overdo whatever one is given it. Just give it a plain name, or instead of 'the' say 'of the' or leave it out completely... that's the epic way of saying it. In the Iliad you have 'Diomedes of the great war cry' or 'Odysseus, sacker of cities'. I like to leave them out, for the most part, as they remind me too much of common fantasy...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 23, 2005, 07:09:36 pm
I've got a plan now. After the plot's finished, we'll calculate all the new stuff we have to add, so that we can allocate it and ensure we have room for it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 24, 2005, 05:43:13 pm
Sidequest idea: The Secret of Nu. Learn what Nu truly are, integrate the article.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on April 24, 2005, 08:49:24 pm
Tell me that it'll have the Nu's secret back scratching spot part in it :D
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on April 24, 2005, 10:11:26 pm
The Nu are...hmm...

The Nu are the physical embodiments of the entity, which in argument is the planet. While the entity slumbers, it views itself in its dreams...since the entity knows it is not anything unto itself physically, and cannot be a huge planet represented in the dream, it shapes itself into a Nu. This explains why all things begin and end with Nu, because Nu is the planet.

Therefore, the Nu is the entity 'seeing itself' in its dream.

Idea is good?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 24, 2005, 11:12:28 pm
Yeah, that's how I've viewed the Nu before as well. They're sort of four dimensional beings and the eyes and ears of the Entity, so to speak. The sidequest would be oddball and a relaxing diversion, with some tough as nails bosses.

I'm also rolling around the identity of the impossible optional boss for inclusion. I think every RPG needs one of those guys who's harder than the final boss, and must be beaten to sate curiosity.

I've also got the cameos figured out; Cyan will be the one who explains how the Coliseum works when it's implemented, while Edgar will explain the layout of Chronopolis to the party when they first visit it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 24, 2005, 11:31:08 pm
That sounds like a good base.

I thought of some more ideas regarding the Dragon Tooth while I was on spring trip.  The Dragon Tooth would be reflective of the Dragon Tear and its progeny, the Chrono Cross, in its ability to interact with life forces.  In essence, it would be a Dragon Tear, at this point the previously-mentioned high holy artifact of the Reptites, perverted into a weapon of death by Lavos -- with its powers over life forces, it was easier for Lavos to determine how to take advantage of the planet, because he could use its power to hack into spiritual currents instead of relying solely on mathematics.  However, removing the Dragon Tear would not have stopped the Dragon Tooth from being made -- there's ostensibly more than one, since the Tear is made of material that serves as a physical anchor for the planet's consciousness and a balance for Dreamstone.  One reflects the waking universe, the superficialities of life as a planet, and the other expresses the hidden powers of dreams.  Taking the Tooth allows the heroes to determine severe shifts in life force at any point in Earth's history, and by proxy, use the Dragon Tooth's power with the Dispatch system to go there and investigate without having to violate Time Error to do so.

I was also thinking about having the dream/Epoch crash scenario occur after the first Zeal scenario.  Then a few more scenarios would be in order before the split.  Such a thing would give them the opportunity to discover the Dragon Tear's true form and how it was corrupted by Lavos, thus providing a viable answer to one of Cross's unanswered questions.  This could also possibly involve the Entity in some way -- we've questioned and violated everything else.

Oh, and I got some kickass pictures.  I'll probably post them in general discussion later.

Epic does have its origin in poetry, but a more modern epic is distinctly different from an ancient one.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure where that difference lies.  That may have something to do with the 5 1/2 hour bus ride back.  Help, please?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 25, 2005, 12:51:43 am
Quote from: Hadriel
Epic does have its origin in poetry, but a more modern epic is distinctly different from an ancient one.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure where that difference lies.  That may have something to do with the 5 1/2 hour bus ride back.  Help, please?

I'll check my old reliable source, the Oxford English Dictionary (the 600,000 word full version, that is, not the standard abridged one.)
Alright, it's a Greek word, meaning word, narrative, or song. But as for the usage:
A: Adjective
1.) Pertaining to that species of poetical composition (see Eros), represented typically by the Iliad and Odyssey, which celebrates in the form of a continuous narrative the achievements of one or more heroic personages of history or tradition.
2.)Such as is described in epic poetry
B: sb.
1.)An epic poet (obsolete)
2.)An epic poem
b.)transf. A composition comparable to an epic poem.
3.) fig. A story or series of events, worthy to form the subject of an epic.

Though apparently 'transf.' means 'transferred sense' and 'fig.' figurative. sb., apparently, signifies a noun, as opposed to the first two which are adjectival in sense.
So, I suppose, the modern sense would fit in the sections B.b.) and B.3.), but me... I would still be wary of putting even Lord of the Rings in the place of true 'epic'. The Lay of Leithian, sure: it's a long poem that details the exploits of a great hero, but Lord of the Rings is a little more iffy. A point I'd exempted from the above quote was another defenition of 'epic dialect', which is the dialect of Greek used in the composition of the Iliad and Odyssey. It was to that I was more speaking when I made my comments, that 'epic' seems to have a certain style and dialect of language apart from the vulgar, and for that reason anything written with colloquial dialogue is greatly up for question in the realm of 'epic'. By sheer scale, and the semi-poetic style concerning the exploits of heroes, things like Lord of the Rings just might, perhaps, be on the fringe. But once you begin changing the language too much, you've lost one of the defining features of epic.
Personally, I'd say that to me, what defines an epic is heroics, scale, and the form of the speech. Anyone notice why Brad Pitt's acting (or Agamemnon's, for that matter) seemed so odd in context? It was more colloquial than should have been. It would be improbably in this age, of course, to make something fully old-style in speech and all, so I suppose some concessions need be made. That allowed for, we can have things like Gladiator being epics, to some extent. They follow a hero (often a tragic hero), concern themselves with matters on a grand scale, and have dialogue that is more speech like, at times. It may be just me, but I think that 'epic' is a term far overused these days... much like 'Elves' has been bastardized in the last fifty years.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 25, 2005, 01:02:19 am
I'll drink to that.  Or I would if I was 21.

*throws back some ginger ale*

That was another thing I was concerned with -- how many vulgarities should be used in the speech?  Cross had a few cursewords, but Trigger didn't have any.  I'm not saying that Magus should call everyone a big floppy donkey dick at every opportunity -- that would definitely run contrary to the type of story we're trying to create.  If somebody's going to curse, they should do it in style, like Gandalf using the language of Mordor in the middle of Rivendell or chanting some demonic spell (perhaps we could draw from the Radical Dreamers flower scenario for this) -- none of this Dragon Ball Z bullshit where you yell out the attack name before you throw it.  Seriously, what the HELL is that?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on April 25, 2005, 03:50:31 am
21? Ah, yes. Well, I'm 21, but legal here is actually 18. Not to say I've really been drunk all that often. About... half a dozen times, of which a week back from last Friday was certainly worst. Anyway...
Well, there are old styles of cursing, as well. You could say simply 'curses', or, in a harsher but less colloquial way, 'may I be dealt with ever so severely if ...'. That's an old curse formula from the Bible. To me Janus always has that ancient streak of nobility, prideful though it may be. As far as curse words go, especially on Janus' part, I don't think the occassional 'damn' or 'dammit' is going to sound out of place. In fact, I wager he'd speak like that a lot, damning this and that under his breath, calling people damned fools and the like. 'Fool' is a word I imagine Janus would be very fond of, actually.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 25, 2005, 04:10:36 am
I believe he calls Crono a roach on the North Cape in the Japanese version, which is an extreme sign of disrespect. It's equivocating someone with cockroaches, and every bad connotation thereof.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on April 25, 2005, 06:53:18 am
Quote from: ZeaLitY
I've also got the cameos figured out; Cyan will be the one who explains how the Coliseum works when it's implemented, while Edgar will explain the layout of Chronopolis to the party when they first visit it.

I like Cyan and Edgar, but IMHO cameos from Xenogears might be more appropriate. Lucca already made a cameo appearance in Xenogears explaining how the save points work.

It could be nice if Maria was the person who makes the party visits Chronopolis (Maria was Balthasar's granddaughter from Shevat). Ricardo (a Demi-Human) could hang around in the Coliseum since he used to frequent one in Nortune (or some city I forgot the name).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on April 25, 2005, 10:33:45 am
Okay, we can include them. The reason I'm trying to stick those other two in there is because CE might borrow some of FF6's music (just a couple tracks).

Is Balthasar in Xeno sort of like his Chrono compatriot?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on April 25, 2005, 03:17:26 pm
Issac Balthasar was one the 3 Sages of Shevat. He left Shevat for some reason I forgot and went to live in a cavern deep underground. He discovered bones of prehistoric humans which made him theorize that the human evolution wasn't natural. When he met the party, he called Fei (or was it Bart?) "the Slayer of God". He later discovered "black boxes" in the Weltall gears and released the power from it.

I'm sure I forgot some stuff as I've played Xenogears only once. Anyway, Balthasar's role is much like Belthasar's in CT (which also means, not as important as Belthasar's role in CC).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on April 25, 2005, 04:26:53 pm
Shevat, of course, being a beautiful floating continent ruled by a Queen who has found a way to extend her life long past it's natural span.

And a month in the Hebrew calendar, like many of the locations in that game.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on April 28, 2005, 02:31:20 am
I forgot what the hell we were talking about.  I just remember that no one ever commented on my Dragon Tooth brainstorms save ZeaLitY.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Thorn on May 01, 2005, 01:40:33 am
Alright, after taking a look at the (very little) text that has been finished, I must say it's decent. Avoid the word 'got' unless it's in a dialect for a character is all I can really think of right now (I just got home from a performance, and I don't really have time to go back and reference the ROM for my changes). Also, be careful of spelling. The lines were decent, but could use for some improvement, if only a little.

Other than that, nice job in re-mapping...be sure to learn to use the layers in the pallet and solidity of your various buildings you've place, as well as passes like the forest-way to the cathedral in 1002 A.D....otherwise, wonderfully done. (Especially Porre!)

Edit: Oh, and I will post some more as I have the chance to actually sit down and work with some of the dialogue (in the next two weeks I'll have lots of time again...). Keep me posted.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 01, 2005, 03:05:20 am
I edited all the text I could find for spelling -- I might not have sent the .ips yet.  I'll send it if you want -- hit me up on AIM.

The character dialects are important -- the main characters will communicate normally, with all the grammatical inconsistencies that arise from humans attempting to speak.  The story is supposed to be epic in nature -- the dialogue is intended to be primarily contemporary.  Glenn will speak in Old English, Robo will talk like Data, Ayla has caveman-speak, except for her final couple of remarks in the game, and everyone else speaks regularly.  Verbose philosophizing is intended to be kept to a minimum, and it's usually reserved for endings, anyway.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 01, 2005, 12:55:44 pm
Glenn better not speak Old English. No one will understand him at all!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 01, 2005, 02:22:22 pm
He spoke Old English in the original game...well, maybe bad old English.

I was watching the DVD collection of The Lone Gunmen last night, and it gave me an idea for the future Vanguard and how it might tie into Chrono Cross.  A bit back, I suggested that CC's Central Regime might perhaps be a more militaristic version of the United Nations -- a true world government.  The second-to-last episode of the arc (damn pity they didn't give it a second season) dealt with a terrorist organization called Romeo 61 that was supposedly responsible for everything from the JFK assassination to the destruction of the Exxon Valdez.  No one knew what their true aims were, but it appeared as though this organization was in some way connected with the infamous Conspiracy of the show's venerated predecessor, The X-Files.  This gave me a thought.  

Not that CE's storyline involves invading aliens other than Lavos, but the Conspiracy's reach is far, extending into the top levels of government across the world.  My thought was that the Vanguard's aim would be to create this new world order, this Central Regime.  In a way, this would be beneficial -- only with the combined fiscal and military support of every country on Earth could Belthasar ever have even the slightest chance to complete his plan and destroy Lavos for good.  The Vanguard would know this, via the knowledge passed down in Guardian lore and confirmed for them by Serran.  This particular Guardian lore happens to be composed of Lucca's archival notes, which discuss Lavos, the new future with Belthasar's involvement, and the possibility of a Time Devourer coming into existence.  To stop Lavos, or so they believe, the Vanguard has caused political tensions across the globe to rise exponentially over the past two hundred years, and their full plan will soon come to fruition by inciting World War III.  The Vanguard's plan is to launch nuclear missiles at several major cities from a vantage point that makes it look like the launch was carried out by a rival nation.  A nuclear apocalypse will then ensue, causing a magnitude of destruction comparable with the averted Day of Lavos.  The survivors will have no choice but to band together and rebuild the world into a unified government, or to die.  Within two hundred years, Belthasar will arrive from the Ocean Palace disaster with his laboratory to capitalize on the new resources.  The nukes, three large citybuster devices, are already in Vanguard possession, having been bought on the black market.  Now all that remains is to ship them to the launch site via a private jet.  

So there's another moral choice here -- do Glenn, Magus, and Schala go along with the prophecy and the certain death of billions so that the Time Devourer might be destroyed, or do they defy the prophecy and risk the annihilation of the universe?  Of course, the scenario cannot end well in either case.  If the party chooses to sit back and do nothing, the plan is carried out.  If the party chooses to defy fate, as they did against Lavos, it will turn out that the jet is a decoy, or some such thing, and the plan gets carried out anyway, albeit with the player having earned a few more XP and some nice items.  That is, unless anyone can think of a way to create something like the Central Regime without drastic geopolitical reorganization brought on by violence.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Lord J Esq on May 01, 2005, 03:20:03 pm
I think Guardian was talking about real Old English, as opposed to the Jamesian English we commonly think of as "Old English." In fact, Jamesian English is Modern English just like our own today. True Old English is unrecognizeable as an English language. But don't take my word for it. (http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/library/oe/texts/a4.1.html)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 01, 2005, 05:19:50 pm
Yes, exactly what I was talking about. Hadriel, you'd capitalized the 'old', see? If one says 'old English', that's anything older, than say, what we speak now. But 'Old English' is technically that link Lord J esq gave... which is what Glenn would probably speak, anyway.
What Glenn speaks is a very bad version of the English of Shakespeare's time, perhaps a little later.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on May 01, 2005, 05:27:29 pm
Unfortunately, Glenn never spoke Old English, Jamesian or whatever English. Only Frog spoke like that, and Glenn as a teenager or at the end of CT spoke normal English.

Maybe his amphibian tongue hindered his speeches.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 01, 2005, 05:32:10 pm
Point.  He might have adopted the vaguely Shakespearian English in order to conceal his identity as Glenn.  So I guess he'd speak normally.  My bad.

Thoughts on my thoughts on the future Vanguard scenario?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 01, 2005, 08:08:42 pm
I'll be back to read the Vanguard thing (must eat). However, I'd just like to confirm that yeah, I'm attempting to adhere to various dialects. The Porre soldiers are intended to be ruffians for a large part, with little regard to pleasantries due to their rough lives in the business of mass armies. However, that brought up something interesting-

Should Glenn speak in that Jamesian language?

The most popular theory for his transition into it as Frog was that the new mouth gave him a speech impediment. In Japanese, Sky Render has noted that Frog and Leene (hasn't viewed any other characters so far) don't speak in a true Japanese medieval equivalent, but rather are highly formal to each other.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 02, 2005, 12:41:40 am
New sidequest:

The Black Wind unit of Porre, an elite guard, has its origin explained as Sorin, the Porre Assassin, meets his final actualization as a character. It is revealed that the Black Wind, named after Magus's speeches, is attempting to use the ties with Medina to research history and perhaps break down the gate between the ability to use magic among humans and mystics once more. At the very least, they can, by harnessing artifacts, sometimes exact basic elemental effects - nothing destructive yet. Sorin's attempt will be to stop this; he's above senseless killing (saying something like "The-Porre-Military-Must-Die," and the Black Wind would represent a real threat. From being with the party alone, he knows the dangerous qualities of magic and would attempt to stop this by putting down the Black Wind unit. This would ultimately result in his capture and death, though he would help bring an end to that road (the Black Wind could thus become more of a military elite than a magic-oriented study group).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 02, 2005, 02:22:16 am
Usually I have been of the opinion that the 'black wind' is just a simple term of prophecy, picked up upon by the elite guard of Porre. However, the idea of an imperialistic Janus rallying his 'beloved' Mystics with a mighty speech, and within it using such a term, sounds quite inventive and realistic. I can well imagine that his speeches would have been remembered in some way, and that this imperial Porre group picked up on it.
Anyway, good ideas, there. They truly seem realistic and original, and more importantly - to me - don't strike me as being silly-seeming in the least. That's often a problem with fanfiction-like things, I find.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Magus-X on May 02, 2005, 08:22:42 pm
I heard that someone is going to make a game out of temporal flux after they finished the chrono compendium. Looks like it is done, is anybody going to complete with the project Crimson Echoes.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 02, 2005, 08:51:38 pm
I talked a bit today to my English teacher of all people about the solution to the Vanguard scenario.  I think it gave me a few brainstorms.  Check this stuff out:

The main problem with the Vanguard scenario as it stands is that Lucca's notes supposedly mention the Time Devourer, but at this point she doesn't know it exists -- that fact is revealed to Crono alone during his scenario on Defiled Earth.  They can still be in there sans the TD, however, and used as part of the impetus for the Vanguard's actions.  But I had a hunch that all of this would tie together a lot better if we actually finalized the stuff in between Glenn's scenario and the Breaking.  My idea heavily involves the ancient Zeal on the ground, as all possible explanations that I've run through to allow travel to 12,001 BC have ended in either implausibility or somewhere that leads the player to a "no limits" standpoint -- if we can do that, why can't we just find the problem and fix it?  Not only that, all instances of specifically directed time travel in Chrono Trigger (Lavos' Ocean Palace time warps and Lucca's Time Error-defying trip to 990 AD) have been the result of the intervention of an unimaginably powerful force whose raw energy capacity the characters have nothing to match.  Only a complete Time Egg would ever be able to do such a thing.  However, in the process of running through ideas, I did come up with stuff for the Time, Space, and Dimensions thing:

Time travel requires both temporal permittivity and a means to work, where permittivity is defined as the distance between two points in spacetime as denoted by (x, f(x)), where x is a point in real time and f(x) is a point in nonlinear time.  Any x-value is determined by causality, which in turn determines the overall state of a universe's timeline.  It takes a tremendous amount of energy to fold the universe to your desired point, but it can theoretically be done, and has been shown to be accomplished by Lavos, the Entity, and complete Chrono Triggers.  If spacetime continua can be drawn in by gravity and made to intersect in strategic realspace points, as Lucca says, one could conceivably utilize the time dilation to jump from one time and timeline to the next.  Some kind of non-mechanical motion -- "spirit force" for lack of a better term -- would also have to be involved here to achieve negative time dilation, though.  This force is apparently generated by the individual soul.

And now for the less technical version:

Time travel requires both a reason and the means to distort it enough to create a Gate.  Fortunately, the Entity already made the Gates for the team to use.  Their intentions and Gate Key provided enough spiritual energy to access the Gates, but if they use Dreamstone with the Gates, they can choose where they're going, provided the Entity doesn't have a completely different mission for them.  

However, the uncertainty factor is quite simply too high.  One false step could destroy their entire effort to defeat Lavos, and that's unacceptable when a less risky option is available.  I'll begin typing up my alternative, which I believe does more with the plot elements we've thought up.

-------------------------------

After the party gets back from 602 AD, they seriously wonder about this Sorin character.  Fortunately, Belthasar has deciphered more of the nature of the Dragon Tooth.  It doesn't just have intense life energy radiating from it -- it actually serves as a data collector for that energy.  Belthasar manages to figure out a way to process its data through his computer and give a readout.  The team collected a blood sample from Sorin, and they use it to pinpoint his position at every point on the timeline from 65MBC onwards.  Turns out that he's also skulking around in 11,998 BC, near the ruins of Zeal and the Ocean Palace, at a location that's not just in the middle of the ocean, it's several hundred feet under the surface.  When they warp into the location, they find none other than an immense, Coruscant-like city under the waves, except that this city 1) isn't nearly the size of Coruscant, and 2) is distinctly Zealian in architecture.  Everything is crystalline, reflective, perfectly showcasing the water patterns held up by a force field.  I'm imagining this city like something of a synthesis of two incredibly lame but visually impressive cities -- Atlantis from Disney's pathetic incarnation, and Otoh Gunga, the home of Jar Jar Binks.  Yet, the city is essentially Ancient Zeal, which means it's hardcore by default.  It does have speeders flying around, but they're far more artistic in their design than anything else.  They can shop around, rest, and buy new gear in this city.  Belthasar, when they contact him, expresses amazement that the city even still exists anymore.

I'll post the rest tomorrow...hopefully.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 03, 2005, 02:08:01 am
Quote from: Hadriel
I'm imagining this city like something of a synthesis of two incredibly lame but visually impressive cities -- Atlantis from Disney's pathetic incarnation,

I wasn't THAT bad. I actually rather liked the movie. It had interesting linguistics (an attention to detail that I always like!), good music, and the overall, the Atlantis feel was very well done. I quite thought that the old-world kingship and tradition that remained was quite well done. Moreover, the design of Atlantis in that movie is, essentially, how I've always pictured Zeal in a more 'realistic' form - especially that first sweeping shot, and the dress of the people at the beginning. Whenever I see that prologue I can't help but think: 'that feels like Zeal'; the music helps, too... it did a very good job of conveying ancient mystery, and ever since I thought of it I've connected it closely with Zeal.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 04, 2005, 01:59:41 pm
Would anybody be willing to do some conceptual art for the original, now-sunken version of Zeal?  I can't draw -- all I can do is write and mix the occasional tune.

We came up with some more stuff for Sorin last night -- I'll relate what I remember after school.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 04, 2005, 03:28:03 pm
Hmmm...that might be fun. I'll give it a try if I'm not too tired (just started my summer job a few days ago.) Not to say it would be any good (I'm better at drawing people), and I'm not great at sketching (most of my drawings end up being longer projects), and my mood might not be right (I can usually only draw things that are specifically related to projects of my own), but I CAN draw, so maybe I'll give it a try. Like I said, it depends on how tired I am.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 04, 2005, 06:42:33 pm
Heck, I invite anyone who feels like it to draw up anything CE-related that they feel like -- characters, settings, vehicles, whatever.  That'd be invaluable to go on when the game starts its development in earnest.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Magus-X on May 04, 2005, 08:22:59 pm
I feel up to it. What do you want me to do and how to do it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 04, 2005, 09:25:38 pm
Well, I'd need to see a sample of your work first.  I went searching for people to do a bit of original art a while back, but that didn't pan out.  Now that the school year's coming to a close, I thought perhaps I might have more of a chance.  I'm looking for a fairly realistic art style here, mind you -- more like traditional anime than Toriyama's style.

If your work is good, you or anyone else could help by creating CE renderings of any character or setting you feel like, with a few specifics which I'll outline here.  This concept art will help our slave laborers -- excuse me, programmers -- get an idea of how to alter sprites.  We're going to try and have a different collection of sprites for each type of armor that the characters wear.  This will require 3 different sets of sprites for each applicable character.  Magus and Robo are exempt from this.

Character Concept Art Needed

Crono -- Make him look badarse.

Marle -- Do whatever you feel like, emotional or threatening.

Lucca -- Same as above.  Something related to advanced technology would be good to have on her person, such as a sleek-looking blaster of some kind, or perhaps a Time Egg.

Robo -- In this game, Robo has a Servo Module, so you can draw him with all kinds of crazy-ass armor and weapons if you feel like it.

Glenn -- Human form Glenn.  The Masamune should probably be present, as well as some spiffy armor befitting Glenn's status as the Master Knight of Guardia.

Magus -- Anything you feel is Magus-like.

Schala -- Something sorrowful, definitely, although magic usage can also be present.

Sorin -- He's a ninja, so something ninja-like, whether in fighting or in demeanor.

Belthasar -- Whatever you feel like.

King Zeal -- Brooding and evil.  The Frozen Flame should be present.

Serran -- Pure bloody rackin' frackin' hate.

Settings

Chronopolis -- This is one of the primary settings in the game, and so needs a lot of concept art.  Designs are needed for the Chrono Compendium, the Temporal Dispatch Chamber, the Command Center, and the core.  Keep in mind the highly technological nature of the complex.

Ancient Zeal -- Something like what I described above, a city under the waves with all of Zeal's architecture and advances being preserved by high technology and powerful magic.  It should have the feel of the original Zeal, but on a more massive scale.  

Defiled Earth -- Despite the fact that it's only used in a couple of places, it's a key plot point.  Imagine an Earth controlled completely by Lavos to such a degree that he overrides the planet's soul.  Imagine the population and landscape of this new Earth -- fields of eternal torment imagined by ravaged races of a million worlds and filled to the brim with hordes of bioengineered death machines and demons from the pits of Hell.  They vary in form, but all are bound to the will of Lavos, a cruel and vengeful being set on rewriting himself as the Almighty God-King of the universe.  (Hey, I might use some of that in the script.)  But anyway, my challenge is to draw your conception of this sick mockery of a planet.  Take inspiration from science fiction, fantasy, Gothic horror -- all of them can fit in.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 04, 2005, 10:05:19 pm
Well, as of right now, there isn't a way to actually have the main characters playable in that new armor.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on May 04, 2005, 10:11:43 pm
Man, I wish I was any good at drawing... I've got some great ideas for those three locations, but both I can't draw worth a flip...  Maybe I'll write up some descriptions, let more artistically inclined people draw it
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Magus-X on May 05, 2005, 01:01:41 am
What program or application do you want me to use. I am not that good as a drawer too.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 05, 2005, 03:53:05 am
Hmmm... this may be difficult, then. Anime? I'm not used to that style, after all...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on May 05, 2005, 05:14:23 am
Probably closer to something like Cowboy Bebop than it is to Dragonball
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 05, 2005, 07:34:02 pm
I don't care what program or hardware anyone uses, whether it's Photoshop CS or something on a half-melted Apple II that somebody left in the ghetto.

I'm definitely not looking for a Dragonball style here, and I don't think many other people are, either.  Something smoother is better, except for characters that warrant hard, angular depictions (Lavos, Lavos spawns, crystal or ice-based enemies, etc.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Magus-X on May 06, 2005, 12:16:11 am
Will Paint shop pro work 7 work.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 06, 2005, 12:20:20 am
Most definitely.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 06, 2005, 12:21:18 am
Yeah, that'll be fine.

On the sprite issue: it was just a random idea, perfectly scrappable.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 06, 2005, 12:22:58 am
I'll just draw whatever, if I feel like it. It's just for fun, anyway, so it doesn't really matter whether it turns out well or not, or if you like it or not. Drawing practice is always handy, as it is. I probably won't be able to draw anyway, as I usually cannot put full emotion into something that is not a project of my own.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 06, 2005, 11:56:32 pm
As long as it's not total crap, there might be something we can use.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 07, 2005, 12:43:05 am
Sidequest:


As part of the round of sidequests before the plot gets back on track to rock the final boss, Magus will get disconnected from the others by a catastrophe in order to undergo some plot development. He'll end up on a desert island, El Nido size, off the coast of the Medina continent. Due to his wounds, he'll be forced to wear normal clothes (I'm hoping that Geiger figures out controlling NPCs at this point, so we'll have a Magus (commoner) sprite) and help the few Mystics there who fled during the war and have been making a living. He'll be initially dismayed at losing contact with Schala again, but the place is peaceful, and for the first time in his life, he can rest. The Mystic villager periodically speaks with him about the war prior to 600 A.D., and learns of Magus's true history. The player will learn some fabricated history about the motives of the Mystics in the war and other stuff.

This'll be 80% of the sidequest - gentle development. The rest will come when marauding Mystics from the Medina mainland want the islanders to rejoin them in an army and bear weapons once more. Now, the Magus from Chrono Trigger might say "well, sorry guys, but this is your business, so SEEYA" and let the islanders be overpowered, but the objective here is to show that the emotion of caring has been cultivated within him enough so that he makes a stand on the islander's behalf. After he wins, the elder will then tell him that he has displayed true growth as a character, and that others are more needing of his caring and integrity. He'll then set off to rejoin the team.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 07, 2005, 02:39:12 am
And of course bring along some kickass items and new abilities, which may include servicing the Rainbow Shell and other high-end weapons.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 11, 2005, 02:17:39 am
I need rooms for the 1002 A.D. Cathedral. So far, I have:

Entrance hallway, branching left and right
Main hall/chapel
dining room
royal guest room (in case the King drops in to pray)
monk/nun living quarters
quaint little library
wine cellar
Tunnel to Guardia Castle

Anything else?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 11, 2005, 03:54:45 am
Here's the expanded cathedral, main hall:

(http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/1002CathedralChapel.png)

Suggestions wanted.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: cybersoulx on May 11, 2005, 12:57:40 pm
WOW that looks awesome!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 11, 2005, 01:14:45 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
I need rooms for the 1002 A.D. Cathedral. So far, I have:

Entrance hallway, branching left and right
Main hall/chapel
dining room
royal guest room (in case the King drops in to pray)
monk/nun living quarters
quaint little library
wine cellar
Tunnel to Guardia Castle

Anything else?

Catacombs? In my story, that's how Serge and Crono enter the cathedral, through a series of catacombs., so thinking of a cathedral made me think of that. It isn't far fetched that a cathedral would have such places, though. A lost of famous poets and the like are buried in churches such as Westminster Abbey.
So I'd suggest some catacombs, or maybe just a room or two of that sort of thing. A burial place for old kings or nobles, perhaps (as it is in my story); you could have a weapon pick-up in the area, perhaps. After all, where would the ancient kings of Guardia be buried? Where would the cemetery be? I should think it would be the grand church of the land, which would probably contain a mosoleum of sorts (actually, nearer this than catacombs. Catacombs are winding caves and all. This in the cathedral would be more purposed tombs.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 11, 2005, 02:05:37 pm
...that looks exactly the same as the old one.  Except for the rug.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: GrayLensman on May 11, 2005, 06:23:55 pm
There should probably be separate bedrooms for high level church officials.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on May 11, 2005, 07:58:39 pm
That is an awesome edit, it is similar to the original, but has it's own flavor. Your editing skills have gotten really good here lately. I love watching non rom-hackers progress the way you have. I love the Layer 3 effects the game gives as well, with the light shining through the window. Atmosphere is a beautifull thing. ^_^

With all the advanced planning this edit has going for it, I'd say this hack has a better chance than most others of being something truly great, as most are just rushed out without planning and without thought. I can't wait to see more.

*thumbs up*
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on May 11, 2005, 08:45:02 pm
Thanks. One of the things I'm aiming for is taking full, complete advantage of the tilesets. I notice some pretty weird stuff in there sometimes that I don't remember from CT, like those Cathedral curtains. I used them to denote a door, however. For instance, I'm also going to make an Arboretum for either the Cathedral or the Post using the Forest Tileset (the ruins in that tileset are hardly ever used!).

Cathedral made me worry about planning a bit, but I'm just going to replace the old Cathedral's room locations with the new ones.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on May 12, 2005, 06:51:16 pm
The rug does look good, though.

The extra rooms will be sweet.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on May 21, 2005, 02:42:08 am
Wow. You guys added me to the project group? Thanks, though I'm not certain how much help I'll be - dialogue, perhaps... on a good day, I have an apt hand to writing grand speeches. I'd aid you in actually working with Temporal Flux, but I always get an error about a missing dll. Anybody know the problem?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on May 28, 2005, 08:54:21 pm
Post the exact error message if possible, and the missing dll file it says you are missing. I have them all, so whatever you are missing, I *WILL* have it. :)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on June 08, 2005, 02:01:59 am
'A required .DLL file, MSCOREE.DLL, was not found'

Exact error message. Then again, I may simply have been stupid in installing the program. One never knows...

Anyway, how's this project going, everyone? No one has posted in some time: I sincerely hope it has not been abandoned. As a story it had wonderous potential.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: X ATM038x on June 19, 2005, 01:24:11 pm
When you guys start working on a demo and actually finish it (the demo), the best way to gain feedback (or however it's spelled or called) is to post it on a major games forum. I suggest http://www.gamingw.net/forums/. There are thousands of registered accounts there, so it would definitly get some replies over there.  I guess it's a bit of info you should need later on (as in advertising), but I had to say ^^! I'm not sure how I could be of any other help, and since I want to support the game that's probably it. (If you are thinking of getting much feedback, I could maybe ask my brother to let the moderators of the forum post and give C&C after you post, maybe it would get more attention then.) But you could also keep it a little quiet over here.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on June 30, 2005, 04:41:44 am
@all: We're uncertain if the project is going to continue in light of the C&D order that CTRP received, basically.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 06, 2005, 01:58:53 am
Thanks, ATM.

Game on. Development will proceed. I just need to recreate the forum.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Salvadeiro on July 06, 2005, 05:34:27 pm
This game is sheer brilliance and purity in its purest form.  It's wicked promising and i've been watching it for a while.  I must say, good work.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 06, 2005, 06:06:46 pm
Yes, I think that the Compendium is probably one of the only one who can make a storyline that'll be able to at least come near to match CT's. I've heard about a noob who tried to make a game called: "Chrono Trigger: Sephiroth's entry" on RM2K, so, yeah...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Salvadeiro on July 06, 2005, 06:11:32 pm
Lol I hate Cross-Breed games that have nothing to do with each other.  That just shows how much of something you know when you have to bring something else in it.  For example, Pokemon and Final Fantasy 3 do not mix.  You don't summon Pokemon, you summon Espers, Terra doesn't transform into a Pikachu, and its Flare, not a Fire Attack crap thing.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 06, 2005, 06:16:29 pm
Precisly. Sephiroth rulez, and Chrono Trigger rulez, but mixing them is like eating cereal with Cola.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 06, 2005, 10:01:15 pm
Or maybe one of the many strange concoctions of pizza featured on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

"I'll have the avocado and peanut butter!"

But anyway, we are definitely back in business.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ct/c/b on July 06, 2005, 10:34:21 pm
eating cereal with cola does taste good tho (tryed it)  :D
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 06, 2005, 10:35:25 pm
omigod EW.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 07, 2005, 12:09:15 am
The sequence after the Chrono Break is used on the Entity: (Don't worry about this; it's late in the game and all in my head)

King Zeal acquires the Chrono Break; Belthasar cautions the party that if he indeed uses it against the planet, the world from that point he uses it onward will be totally ruined, and the future destroyed. Everyone past that point will not be born; however, since the team is not native to the timeline (since back in CT), they will not be affected. Thus, when the party is searching the land for clues to King Zeal's whereabouts, they arrive in Guardia Castle, 1002 A.D. As they enter, suddenly they are attacked from behind by a monster. Magic is used to defeat him. At that moment, the windows lose their shine, and a steady rain begins assaulting the castle. Guards close the gates and doors completely, though wails can be heard outside. The King admonishes the party to go up to the towers and look out to see what's going on; as they arrive at the top, the first thing they noticed is a fallen Guardia lookout. Immediately comes a big panorama, full screen image stored in the rom's memory that shows ruined landscapes. Afterwards they are attacked by a big flying defiled creature. They retreat inside, and speculate on what happens; Belthasar absolutely cannot be reached. They conclude that yes, they were spared, but question why Guardia Castle and its inhabitants are also okay. However, they decide that they must depart, since King Zeal had to be in 1002 A.D. to have set off the CB, and it's got to be somewhere.

There is no overworld; they leave Guardia Castle and go straight into Guardia forest and beyond, fighting all kinds of demons, warped people, and evil. The game gets carniverously scary; the world is worse than the Isle of the Damned, and monsters are everywhere. Truly, the Chrono Break has skewed and diced the world. There's a battle on Zenan Bridge, and as they approach Fiona's Forest, they decide that it's simply impossible to continue. They hug the shore instead. The atrocities continue, until they catch a glimpse of Porre in the distance -- and amazingly, there is a house or two that hasn't been ruined! They recall that Sorin could have been there, and that since he traveled through time with them, he would be protected. They then deduce that since they were exerting elemental force at the time of the Chrono Break's trigger (okay, I'll try not to use the word trigger again), it extended the proximity of their protection to Guardia Castle. They rush to Porre, and find Sorin is indeed there, struggling to hold off the mutant invaders to protect a few good people of Porre that he saved. However, he was caught totally off-guard by the Break, so he is having immense difficulty warding off the encroaching effect. The party tries to help him, but he declares that it is a losing battle and that they should head to find King Zeal, who he saw going into Fiona's Forest.

At this point we have some options. We can set up little quests and horrific things for each character, and we can also have Sorin get "Broken" himself and fight as a boss battle.

Regardless, the party sojourns to Fiona's Forest, which is full of incredibly hard, Black Omen-esque battles and monsters. They approach where Fiona's Shrine was vaporized, and there is the Chrono Break, hovering above the ground, and pulsating with destructive power. King Zeal arrives, taunts the party a bit (as in seriously taunts; really evil disses), and then regrets that he has to tend to a matter concerning his boss, Lavos, in the Darkness Beyond Time. He tells the party not to fret, however, because the Chrono Break's dark power did give him the ability to pull someone back from death who previously fought the Chrono team and even gave them a run for their money. A black Gate opens, and out steps, in King Zeal-type purple and deep blue robes, with a King Zeal type face (pale, darkened, with white eyes) -- Queen Zeal. As in Queen Zeal, the woman you fought on the Black Omen. And she is not happy. After you defeat her, the Chrono Break itself must be engaged; there isn't a real battle, but as soon as it is destabilized, a timer begins. Belthasar radios in that things are beginning to come unglued, and its effects are being withdrawn, but that he has no idea how the explosion of returning to normalcy will affect the party. A timer begins, counting down the seconds before it explodes, and the party must escape Fiona's Forest (it stopped raining). If they escape, they return to Chronopolis. If they stay, however...a special reward is given. Strange dialogue appears when the timer is up, thanking the party. There is no revealed speaker (it is the Entity), and the dialogue thanks the party for staying with it during its worst hour of darkness. Afterwards, the Chrono Break, a fraction of the power left, can be taken by the party to become an item of sorts. What? Don't know yet.

Thus concludes this part. We're going to be setting everything in stone to figure out what we lack.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Salvadeiro on July 07, 2005, 12:47:15 am
:clap:  I must applaude because, this totally deserves it.  Unlike most games, this really has a consistant plot and equal depth.  I really like the Storyline, but what features are you going to include in this project?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 07, 2005, 02:03:39 am
Queen Zeal better be a pretty hard boss. I was thinking, Is Schala in the group at this time? Maybe Queen Zeal can repent, or some kind of sorrow scene with Schala.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 09, 2005, 03:40:00 am
To come: (Check Storyline 16 in first page for backstory to this)

Belthasar finally tracks down the Porre agent again, to 11999 B.C., close to where he was snooping. They find him there; he states that King Zeal revived the city at this time. The party sees King Zeal, and immediately seeks to engage him. However, they wonder if killing him will remove the city's restoration from time. Nonetheless, a fight breaks out; the party wins, and is given the option to kill him or let him live. If they let him live, he disappears in seconds. If they kill him, the city is gone. The real King Zeal arrives, revealing that they just did indeed deal with him, save a version that previously traveled through time, fulfilling his fancy. He then taunts them, etc. and departs.

Later, a sidequest is available to ensure the city is saved even after Crimson Echoes is said in done, since there is a danger that overcoming the Flame will remove it from existence. The party debates whether they should live, or succumb as time originally played out. Dyasavah is the fourth Guru. Things happen concerning these choices:

1. Calasperan fades away; King Zeal version killed

When the party must sojourn through lost timeline fragments in the DBT at the end of the game, Calasperan will be one such area. And it will be tough.

2. Calasperan survives, but sidequest to ensure is not done

No difference.

3. Calasperan survives, is ensured survival

The city survives eternally beneath the waves, forgotten by the world, and forgetting the world in turn. Its own time research continues; it can be visited for new materials and items. Later, before going to the DBT on the final mission, Dyasavah arrives and tells the party that she's obligated to help them. She provides an alternate route to the DBT. This also affects the endings.

Endings

-Bunch of scenes
-Crono and Marle are forced into exile as Porre threatens to slaughter Truce. They do it anyway after Crono and Marle leave, and post wanted posters for them. Crono and Marle retreat to Chronopolis; Belthasar shows them Schala's fate, and advises them to take shelter somewhere, since Chronopolis will soon undergo "a lot of stress." If Calasperan is saved, they retreat there.
-Magus goes crazy, and returns to Chronopolis. He too sees Project Kid, and has a clone named Guile made by Bekkler to oversee this. He then fades...to Calasperan, if it's saved.
-more
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 09, 2005, 09:04:02 am
I don't think the Calasperan background has been posted yet, so I guess I'll break tradition and do it.  ZeaLitY, Aitrus and I hammered this out from several separate concepts a few hours ago.

According to what I've got written down, it takes place right after the Glenn scenario, in which the Vanguard is introduced, along with Serran and the Vanguard's Three Stooges, Renault, Roget, and Luther.  The party spotted Sorin there, and after seeing him in multiple times think he's connected to whatever's happening to the various time periods.  Belthasar figured out how to use the Dragon Tooth to track all occurrences of any particular life force after 65MBC.  They spot Sorin in 11998 B.C. and head there to confront him.  Magus and Schala request to be taken along for this, so they head off.  When they get out of the time portal, though, they find themselves in the middle of a city under the waves, a few hundred kilometers north of where Zeal used to float.  This is that mini-Coruscant city I mentioned earlier, except that the architecture is distinctly Zealian.  Belthasar can't even believe this place still exists.  He tells them about the Zealian Schism; basically, the Zeal you see in the original CT wasn't the original Zeal, but rather a secessionist nation.  The city they're in right now is Calasperan, the capital of ancient Zeal.  According to Belthasar's story, it was overtaken by a flood shortly after the skyborne version of Zeal became operational and presumed lost.  At this point, Melchior comes on the comlink and says that at one point, ancient Zeal faced an energy crisis.  The King advocated the use of elemental magic and conventional technological advance to overcome the problem, while the Queen decided that the newly discovered form of magic, codenamed Lavos energy, was the best way to fix it.  This dispute ended up not only splitting them apart, but their kingdom as well.  The Queen went up into the sky nation, taking with her a very young Schala; at this point she was pregnant with Janus.  This is all news to him, since Schala wasn't old enough to remember much of anything.  

Belthasar instructs the party to talk to whoever's in charge there about getting some extra gear; not one but two members of the Zealian royal family are present.  They immediately march to the palace and demand to be let through.  When they reach the throne room, they're greeted by none other than King Zeal, who is positively overjoyed to see his progeny and offers Crono free room and board and a special card that gives him a discount on every good and service in the city, meaning you can buy some higher-end gear for your party members.  For a while, Crono is split from the Zeal siblings to explore the city and gain insights as to its nature.  Magus and Schala, however, are spending time with their father.  As Crono accomplishes various quest-related tasks around the city, cutscenes occur of the siblings talking with their dad.  Janus is a major focus here; a true family and security is all he has ever wanted because he never had it.  He worked his arse off both to defeat Lavos and to retrieve Schala, and now that he has his father back it seems like he doesn't have to fight anymore.  He and his sister could live out the entire rest of their lives in Calasperan, unmolested by history or by conquering warlords; hence, the sequences with the Zeal family here are something akin to Darth Vader or the Emperor trying to tempt Luke to the dark side.  And as in that case, the temptations turn out to be founded on bullshit.  At the end of this whole sequence, something undetermined relating to a revitalized Queen Zeal, Crono's confrontation with Sorin, and every relevant thing that happens in ZeaLitY's above post occurs.

The mystery of Calasperan: Calasperan is a condensed form of Cala Ataperistan, the Castle of Fire.  It's a stronghold referenced in the travels of Marco Polo as being the home of the Magi who came and worshipped Christ; obviously they are relevant here in the form of the Gurus.  

Calasperan appears to be the true approximation of a Zealian paradise, save for one thing; it's yet another twisted occurrence dreamed up by the Frozen Flame, and perhaps the grandest in magnitude save the ridiculously mind-blowing shit that I haven't told anyone except ZeaLitY, mainly because it isn't revealed until almost the end of the game.  The original Calasperan was destroyed in the wave of natural disasters sparked by Lavos' 12KBC awakening.  Only King Zeal survived; once he found the Frozen Flame, he thought it would be nice to resurrect his old home as an illusion of sorts.  King Zeal is a deluded man who has been possessed and twisted by the power of Lavos.  Calasperan is now effectively a "dream city" that will perish along with all of its people if King Zeal is killed, because the Frozen Flame will then have no Arbiter to sustain the illusion.  This lends a moral aspect to this quest as well.  This refers back to CC's quote about being able to simulate the soul, and also to a theory several Compendium members, including GrayLensman, Aitrus, and I formulated about the nature of souls in Chrono Trigger and how they're apparently able to defy the laws of special relativity, which dictate that they shouldn't be able to interact with mortals; souls are not pure energy but rather a sort of reaction between the physical universe and its metaphysical fabric, which comprises time and the will of the universe.  Basically, the Frozen Flame has recalled Calasperan from an alternate timeline in the Tesseract, much as the planet does for Terra Tower in Cross.

Thoughts?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 09, 2005, 03:25:31 pm
Making the tileset will be interesting. Since Calasperan is self-contained, I'm thinking we should perhaps make the city be a full, 1024 x 1024 location map, with houses, a square, and the palace at the north end all on that map. It'd be an FF6 style town.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 09, 2005, 05:49:57 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I don't think the Calasperan background has been posted yet, so I guess I'll break tradition and do it.  ZeaLitY, Aitrus and I hammered this out from several separate concepts a few hours ago.

According to what I've got written down, it takes place right after the Glenn scenario, in which the Vanguard is introduced, along with Serran and the Vanguard's Three Stooges, Renault, Roget, and Luther.  The party spotted Sorin there, and after seeing him in multiple times think he's connected to whatever's happening to the various time periods.  Belthasar figured out how to use the Dragon Tooth to track all occurrences of any particular life force after 65MBC.  They spot Sorin in 11998 B.C. and head there to confront him.  Magus and Schala request to be taken along for this, so they head off.  When they get out of the time portal, though, they find themselves in the middle of a city under the waves, a few hundred kilometers north of where Zeal used to float.  This is that mini-Coruscant city I mentioned earlier, except that the architecture is distinctly Zealian.  Belthasar can't even believe this place still exists.  He tells them about the Zealian Schism; basically, the Zeal you see in the original CT wasn't the original Zeal, but rather a secessionist nation.  The city they're in right now is Calasperan, the capital of ancient Zeal.  According to Belthasar's story, it was overtaken by a flood shortly after the skyborne version of Zeal became operational and presumed lost.  At this point, Melchior comes on the comlink and says that at one point, ancient Zeal faced an energy crisis.  The King advocated the use of elemental magic and conventional technological advance to overcome the problem, while the Queen decided that the newly discovered form of magic, codenamed Lavos energy, was the best way to fix it.  This dispute ended up not only splitting them apart, but their kingdom as well.  The Queen went up into the sky nation, taking with her a very young Schala; at this point she was pregnant with Janus.  This is all news to him, since Schala wasn't old enough to remember much of anything.  

Belthasar instructs the party to talk to whoever's in charge there about getting some extra gear; not one but two members of the Zealian royal family are present.  They immediately march to the palace and demand to be let through.  When they reach the throne room, they're greeted by none other than King Zeal, who is positively overjoyed to see his progeny and offers Crono free room and board and a special card that gives him a discount on every good and service in the city, meaning you can buy some higher-end gear for your party members.  For a while, Crono is split from the Zeal siblings to explore the city and gain insights as to its nature.  Magus and Schala, however, are spending time with their father.  As Crono accomplishes various quest-related tasks around the city, cutscenes occur of the siblings talking with their dad.  Janus is a major focus here; a true family and security is all he has ever wanted because he never had it.  He worked his arse off both to defeat Lavos and to retrieve Schala, and now that he has his father back it seems like he doesn't have to fight anymore.  He and his sister could live out the entire rest of their lives in Calasperan, unmolested by history or by conquering warlords; hence, the sequences with the Zeal family here are something akin to Darth Vader or the Emperor trying to tempt Luke to the dark side.  And as in that case, the temptations turn out to be founded on bullshit.  At the end of this whole sequence, something undetermined relating to a revitalized Queen Zeal, Crono's confrontation with Sorin, and every relevant thing that happens in ZeaLitY's above post occurs.

The mystery of Calasperan: Calasperan is a condensed form of Cala Ataperistan, the Castle of Fire.  It's a stronghold referenced in the travels of Marco Polo as being the home of the Magi who came and worshipped Christ; obviously they are relevant here in the form of the Gurus.  

Calasperan appears to be the true approximation of a Zealian paradise, save for one thing; it's yet another twisted occurrence dreamed up by the Frozen Flame, and perhaps the grandest in magnitude save the ridiculously mind-blowing shit that I haven't told anyone except ZeaLitY, mainly because it isn't revealed until almost the end of the game.  The original Calasperan was destroyed in the wave of natural disasters sparked by Lavos' 12KBC awakening.  Only King Zeal survived; once he found the Frozen Flame, he thought it would be nice to resurrect his old home as an illusion of sorts.  King Zeal is a deluded man who has been possessed and twisted by the power of Lavos.  Calasperan is now effectively a "dream city" that will perish along with all of its people if King Zeal is killed, because the Frozen Flame will then have no Arbiter to sustain the illusion.  This lends a moral aspect to this quest as well.  This refers back to CC's quote about being able to simulate the soul, and also to a theory several Compendium members, including GrayLensman, Aitrus, and I formulated about the nature of souls in Chrono Trigger and how they're apparently able to defy the laws of special relativity, which dictate that they shouldn't be able to interact with mortals; souls are not pure energy but rather a sort of reaction between the physical universe and its metaphysical fabric, which comprises time and the will of the universe.  Basically, the Frozen Flame has recalled Calasperan from an alternate timeline in the Tesseract, much as the planet does for Terra Tower in Cross.

Thoughts?


WOW.

I like the way CE's storyline's going. It's gonna be an awesome storyline, and an awesome game too if it's gonna use CT's system.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 09, 2005, 06:02:46 pm
My avatar = King Zeal.

For those that didn't get that.  :)

~.C.S.~
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 09, 2005, 06:35:57 pm
The story is getting quite Xenogears-esque :) . It's a good thing, but I hope all the necessary time mechanic details will be explained enough and understandable (please, no Dead Sea stuff like in CC^^').

Quote from: Claado Shou
My avatar = King Zeal.

For those that didn't get that.  :)

~.C.S.~

SO, that's how King Zeal looks like? For some reason he reminds me of Serge (must be the dark blue hair).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 09, 2005, 07:25:04 pm
I'm not sure if that was intentional, but it certainly fits.  King Zeal is effectively helping Lavos to assassinate the entire planet.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 10, 2005, 12:27:22 am
Quote from: Claado Shou
My avatar = King Zeal.

For those that didn't get that.  :)

~.C.S.~


I always wondered it came from which Final Fantasy, lol oh well.

Crismon Echoes looks like having a faboulous storyline (I didn't read it all though), but there is two I can't stop to wonder

-Why did you chose King Zeal has a major enemy, when Queen Zeal turned so evilish after he died.

-What happend if SE get crazy and accidently start another Chrono game, then sign some paper that will stop them from doing "OMG OMG what have we done change the storyline and call it FFXIII NOW!!!!", will you just call it an alternate dimension, or are you already calling it an alternate dimension so you won't get all sad if you actuly make a really good game with storyline and then learn in Chrono Brake that King Zeal was Belthasar (IMAGINE ONLY)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 10, 2005, 12:32:58 am
Nah, this game is a fanwork, so it doesn't matter. It isn't canon, just a really cool what might have happened situation.

I chose King Zeal because he's noticeably absent from Chrono Trigger. The first thing I did when I learned Zeal had a royal family was try to find out where King Zeal was, and who that guy was has intrigued me ever since.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Salvadeiro on July 10, 2005, 08:55:27 am
King Zeal = my new best friend

This game = my new wife

Chrono Compendium = my new life

notice how the last two lines rhyme, i made it that way :) i'm so cool.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 10, 2005, 09:12:25 am
Quote from: Salvadeiro
King Zeal = my new best friend

This game = my new wife

Chrono Compendium = my new life


Same here.

Quote
i'm so cool.


You sure are. =)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Salvadeiro on July 10, 2005, 09:21:49 am
Why thank you but your much cooler than I.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 10, 2005, 10:26:16 am
Quote from: Salvadeiro
Why thank you but your much cooler than I.


Hmm, no I'm not.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 10, 2005, 07:08:42 pm
Quote from: Legend of the Past
Quote from: Salvadeiro
King Zeal = my new best friend

This game = my new wife

Chrono Compendium = my new life


Same here.


Is that a compliment for my sprite?  And yes, I made it.

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :twisted:

~.C.S.~
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 11, 2005, 12:22:09 am
hum i always found that sprite wierd, but never knew why... until now...

Why doesn't he have blue hair?!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on July 11, 2005, 07:03:17 am
Will this game have multiple endings?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 11, 2005, 10:50:39 am
King Zeal's hair is blue, but it is a darker color because he is evil.

Multiple endings, I can't decide if that should be NG+ or not.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on July 11, 2005, 12:06:34 pm
So thats a yes right? If it is and you are saying you cant decide on if it should be a result of playing again in NG+ mode or from playing it a certain way then I vote on NG+. It will make the game seem more like the orginal and it will add alot of replay value just like it did for CT.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 11, 2005, 01:09:46 pm
Okay, that's what I'm leaning towards too, considering that really there should only be one ending for the game at this point (with a few variations). We can do the usual comedic stuff or interesting scenes on a NG+.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 11, 2005, 03:54:56 pm
Yeah, NG+ would just rock. And multiple endings make it even better. This game is gonna rock, I can feel it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 11, 2005, 04:06:20 pm
Quote from: Legend of the Past
Yeah, NG+ would just rock. And multiple endings make it even better. This game is gonna rock, I can feel it.

Yup, a developers ending would be awesome too :)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 11, 2005, 04:55:56 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Legend of the Past
Yeah, NG+ would just rock. And multiple endings make it even better. This game is gonna rock, I can feel it.

Yup, a developers ending would be awesome too :)


Espically because we know the developers. =)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 11, 2005, 06:18:33 pm
Awesome work guys, here, I've just been skimming through your story ideas. But a comment.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
Dyasavah is the fourth Guru.


Since she's a woman, I'd hesitate on this naming, and should rather think it would be better if the number of Guru's stay at three. Rather, call her a Deva for, you see, if my memory serves, 'Deva' is the female version of 'Guru'. In that way, you could then have there being (or having been) three Devas to three Gurus, almost like the high priests and priestesses of old Zeal. Just an idea, and nitpicking on etymology.

Oh, as a side note, I think I've been spending far too much time on the computer in recent months, and am becoming affrighted that it is stifiling my will and imagination. As such, I am attempting to severely limit or cut down the time I spend on the compter. Thus, if I do not post for a while, it does not by any means I've gone AWOL, I've just gone invisible for a while, and I'll be back.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 12, 2005, 10:14:45 am
Hey, it's summer; what else have we got to do?  Aside from vacations and setting stuff on fire, that is.  We're having our bonfire this Saturday; I'll totally be posting pictures of that, since our KOTOR paintball game got cancelled.  >_<

Most of what we're going to be burning is schoolbooks from high school.  There's a book by Jared Diamond called Guns, Germs, and Steel.  It's a horrid book not because of its content, which for its size is rather comprehensive, but because its cover purports it to be witty and it's about as funny as SNL is these days.  We're also going to burn Darksaber by Kevin J. Anderson, because it just sucks.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 12, 2005, 11:49:24 am
Yeah, I'll burn my high-school books, too, once I finish 12th grade.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 12, 2005, 01:11:40 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Hey, it's summer; what else have we got to do?  Aside from vacations and setting stuff on fire, that is.  We're having our bonfire this Saturday; I'll totally be posting pictures of that, since our KOTOR paintball game got cancelled.  >_<

Most of what we're going to be burning is schoolbooks from high school.  There's a book by Jared Diamond called Guns, Germs, and Steel.  It's a horrid book not because of its content, which for its size is rather comprehensive, but because its cover purports it to be witty and it's about as funny as SNL is these days.  We're also going to burn Darksaber by Kevin J. Anderson, because it just sucks.


Full time work, actually. Or, at least, that is what I am doing. I may well not have a vacation this year, even as I have not had one for four years (or at least a vacation of the sort that includes going outside or your city.) As a matter of fact, summer-time is in many ways harder than school is; I'm an academic, and I look forward to returning to university in September, as these 8:00 mornings are terrible for someone who prefers staying up later.

As for those two books you're burning. My mother loves to read historical books like that, and did, I think, begin to read it. Apparently, however, it was even as bad as you've said: so bad, my father took it and donated it to the library. And Darksaber... that one I did read. If memory serves, it seems more like a fanfiction than an actual authorized story. Likewise The Crystal Star.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 12, 2005, 04:19:52 pm
Here we go. The nose should be added on soon, since Lucca's lower face got messed when I resampled it to a smaller size. After this, I'll have to redo Marle because the transparency messed up.

(http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/luccapor.png)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 12, 2005, 06:15:51 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Here we go. The nose should be added on soon, since Lucca's lower face got messed when I resampled it to a smaller size. After this, I'll have to redo Marle because the transparency messed up.

(http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/luccapor.png)

Two things:
Why the heck is Lucca named Pearl? And secondly, what picture are you using for her, because that looks insanely good.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 12, 2005, 06:19:37 pm
I think it's that one (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/images/avatars/gallery/CuteLucca%20Fanart/Lucca.png)

I think it's a fan art from cute Lucca from what is see of the link

"http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/images/avatars/gallery/CuteLucca%20Fanart/Lucca.png"
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 12, 2005, 06:26:25 pm
Pretty nice. ...but doesn't Lucca have brown eyes (or something other than bright green at least)?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 12, 2005, 06:32:02 pm
All the Crono Trigger characters have blue\green eyes. 'Cept for Robo, who dosen't have eyes?

Quote from: Dan Krispin
Why the heck is Lucca named Pearl?

The same can be asked for why Marle is named Maria and why Robo is named Kevin (The oddest of the three O_O).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 12, 2005, 06:35:27 pm
Quote from: Legend of the Past
All the Crono Trigger characters have blue\green eyes. 'Cept for Robo, who dosen't have eyes?

Ah I've just checked you're right. They're a bit darker on the artworks but I suppose it's not a problem (like how Crono's clothes can be dark blue or bright green).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 12, 2005, 07:18:57 pm
It's just the savestate I'm using; it puts you at the very end of the game. I use it to check portraits since all party members are there.

I just succeeded in creating the modern Choras soldier by pointing an unused spot to the usual middle ages soldier and giving him a palette swap. Now comes the hard part, which is actually putting this baddie into the game:

http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/VanguardSoldier-big.bmp

This is the basic Vanguard soldier. I'm going to have a guy in game explain all the colors.

1000 A.D.

Basic Guardia fighting auxiliary and Choras troops use red-orange.
Guardia specialists wear blue.
All Porre soldiers wear blue, and specialists have the "Norris" style jacket.
The Vanguard wears crimson.

600 A.D.

Everyone wears purple. Remember?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 13, 2005, 03:18:44 am
Zealians wear purple too lol
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 13, 2005, 11:09:09 pm
I've learned how to make basic events, like walk in a room, two people talk, maybe take a swing, one walks out, another dances, etc.

Still don't know how to do battles. But while I'm being helped with the former, I built the Medina harbor. One of the most amazing and difficult undertakings of the Mystics, it was completed of their defense force. At the end is the "Rock of Medina," a symbol of its newfound identity. Trade and ferry service is good at the moment, especially with the natural harbor, but Medina isn't taking sides just yet in this conflict. Those two buildings by the harbor are the Defense Force Headquarters and the Ferry Station.

(http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/medina.png)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on July 13, 2005, 11:53:59 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Awesome work guys, here, I've just been skimming through your story ideas. But a comment.

Quote from: ZeaLitY
Dyasavah is the fourth Guru.


Since she's a woman, I'd hesitate on this naming, and should rather think it would be better if the number of Guru's stay at three. Rather, call her a Deva for, you see, if my memory serves, 'Deva' is the female version of 'Guru'. In that way, you could then have there being (or having been) three Devas to three Gurus, almost like the high priests and priestesses of old Zeal. Just an idea, and nitpicking on etymology.


Thing is, in CC, weren't the supposed best-of-the-best in the Acacia Dragoons (also a mixed male/female goup, btw) called the Four Devas?

It'd probably be better to stick with Guru on this as, first off, this became a hereditary position and her father had no male heirs, if I remember our backstory correct, and second, so as to not confuse the two groups.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 14, 2005, 12:30:21 am
How about the Oracle?  It hasn't been done before in the Chrono series.  But in that case, we might need a new name.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 14, 2005, 12:30:55 am
Quote from: Aitrus
Thing is, in CC, weren't the supposed best-of-the-best in the Acacia Dragoons (also a mixed male/female goup, btw) called the Four Devas?

It'd probably be better to stick with Guru on this as, first off, this became a hereditary position and her father had no male heirs, if I remember our backstory correct, and second, so as to not confuse the two groups.


True, but CC messed up a few things in that regard, that being one of them. The other is that 'dragoon' has never implied a warrior that uses swords or any sort of weapon other than a gun. A dragoon is a mounted musketeer, and is so named for the breath of fire - like a dragon's - that flames from the barrel of his musket. That aside, however, it might be seen that the warrior's connection to the ancient dragons, and their bearing of dragon-symbols, could give strength to the name being used for them, perhaps.

However, I think my strongest point in arguing this is that there was an allusion behind the existance of three, and only three, Guru's. To change that number, and add a fourth to their order, would disrupt this deft allusion. Moreover, 'deva' is not as major a term in CC, and I would not worry overmuch about confusion between the two or, at least, less so than the difficulty in inherent in the issue which I have just stated. The confusion of the groups is, to my mind, far preferrable than the disruption of the order of the Three.

Now, I have yet to read the plot as outlined (I would wish to do so on paper, but have yet to print it off)... I am not sure if it is apparent in this writing or not, but I am extremely muddle-headed, and have difficulty understanding and reading things to some extent. As such, I should not wish to read it until such a time as I am feeling more apt to it. But sufficed to say, from what you have said, I would recommend not making the Guru's a hereditary position. They seem nearly like the counsellors and chief advisors to the Zeal (I think this is even alluded to, in what one of Zeal says in Chrono Trigger, regarding the 'three Guru's who led Zeal', or something to that effect.) That said, I doubt that the position of counsellor would be hereditary, and would likely be rather drawn from the old and experienced of the lords and wise men - those who through years have proven themselves. Rather like the position of Poet Lauriate or something to that effect. Belthesar distinguished himself as a scientist, so was appointed such a post in the royal court. Judging by their high status, they may even have been lords prior to that time, as well.

But regardless, to have such a position as hereditary would pose a grave problem: one man may be wise and learned in a field, but it does not mean his scion is. My father is well-versed in matters of theology and the like, and I share something of his love of those things, but my younger brother is not quite so keen to them. In the same way, what should happen if, then, the postion of Guru of Reason were filled by a man that cannot think in such a way, and passes on this inability to his children as well? Wise men would need be drawn from the ranks of wise men, not inhereted. After all, it would not be wisdom to do otherwise.

And as a second point, I simply do not think the idea of a woman Guru works, and to my mind reflects strangely on the position of Guru. Firstly, at least to me, Guru always implies a man, never a woman. To make one a woman seems to me simply an attempt to equalize things across the sexes, but is not how things would work in real. Or, to put it more correctly, Zeal is an ancient culture. There were, mostly, strict lines in culture, about what people could hold what position. That of Guru seems to me one of those that would have been forbidden to women, at least in what I know of the form of ancient culture (some, it is true, freely allowed female rulers and the like - the Egyptians for example - but there they followed the practices of the male rulers, in Egypt even wearing the kingly beard.) The best solution I could think of to such a dilemma - and it is a dilemma of style and form, and to my eyes makes Zeal seem less as an ancient culture and more as a modern one - is to make a parallel order that is purely of women, the priestesses to the priests, so to speak. The female equivalent then could easily be Deva. This re-use would hardly be grievous - Black Wind is reused, after all. Then we could have three positions here as well, say the Deva of Ceremonies, or things to that effect. It would not be hard to have them intruduce themselves as the Deva of the Ceremonies, second of the womanly three, the ladies who sat across from the three lords.

In the end, I must say that it seems that a female fourth Guru seems more as what would happen in a fanfiction than in Crimson Echoes (which I hold to be far above fanfiction from what I have seen so far), and am merely attempting to keep it away from such ground.

Oh, sorry, didn't see your post, Hadriel. Well, to my mind, Deva worked because it is the real-life opposite to Guru. Personally, I never liked the sound of 'Guru' (if you've ever seen my story, I always name them 'Master'), so naturally prefer Oracle over Deva. I'll check the meaning of oracle, though. Hmmm... I thought it was Greek, I should have known better. It's Latin, oh well. I suppose thinking of the Oracle at Delphi deceived me. Hmmm... Oracle of the Ceremonies? Does that work? (that 'of the Ceremonies' I thought of today I thought worked interestingly.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 14, 2005, 12:44:04 am
Hum if Belthasar would have died in Zeal and the best Scientist at that time was a women would you call her the Deva of Reason or would you look for a men less skilled but a man anyway? I personaly think that in Zeal women weren't oppressed like this and it could possibly be a Deva of Reason
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on July 14, 2005, 12:53:04 am
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Aitrus
Thing is, in CC, weren't the supposed best-of-the-best in the Acacia Dragoons (also a mixed male/female goup, btw) called the Four Devas?

It'd probably be better to stick with Guru on this as, first off, this became a hereditary position and her father had no male heirs, if I remember our backstory correct, and second, so as to not confuse the two groups.


True, but CC messed up a few things in that regard, that being one of them. The other is that 'dragoon' has never implied a warrior that uses swords or any sort of weapon other than a gun. A dragoon is a mounted musketeer, and is so named for the breath of fire - like a dragon's - that flames from the barrel of his musket. That aside, however, it might be seen that the warrior's connection to the ancient dragons, and their bearing of dragon-symbols, could give strength to the name being used for them, perhaps.

However, I think my strongest point in arguing this is that there was an allusion behind the existance of three, and only three, Guru's. To change that number, and add a fourth to their order, would disrupt this deft allusion. Moreover, 'deva' is not as major a term in CC, and I would not worry overmuch about confusion between the two or, at least, less so than the difficulty in inherent in the issue which I have just stated. The confusion of the groups is, to my mind, far preferrable than the disruption of the order of the Three.

Now, I have yet to read the plot as outlined (I would wish to do so on paper, but have yet to print it off)... I am not sure if it is apparent in this writing or not, but I am extremely muddle-headed, and have difficulty understanding and reading things to some extent. As such, I should not wish to read it until such a time as I am feeling more apt to it. But sufficed to say, from what you have said, I would recommend not making the Guru's a hereditary position. They seem nearly like the counsellors and chief advisors to the Zeal (I think this is even alluded to, in what one of Zeal says in Chrono Trigger, regarding the 'three Guru's who led Zeal', or something to that effect.) That said, I doubt that the position of counsellor would be hereditary, and would likely be rather drawn from the old and experienced of the lords and wise men - those who through years have proven themselves. Rather like the position of Poet Lauriate or something to that effect. Belthesar distinguished himself as a scientist, so was appointed such a post in the royal court. Judging by their high status, they may even have been lords prior to that time, as well.

But regardless, to have such a position as hereditary would pose a grave problem: one man may be wise and learned in a field, but it does not mean his scion is. My father is well-versed in matters of theology and the like, and I share something of his love of those things, but my younger brother is not quite so keen to them. In the same way, what should happen if, then, the postion of Guru of Reason were filled by a man that cannot think in such a way, and passes on this inability to his children as well? Wise men would need be drawn from the ranks of wise men, not inhereted. After all, it would not be wisdom to do otherwise.

And as a second point, I simply do not think the idea of a woman Guru works, and to my mind reflects strangely on the position of Guru. Firstly, at least to me, Guru always implies a man, never a woman. To make one a woman seems to me simply an attempt to equalize things across the sexes, but is not how things would work in real. Or, to put it more correctly, Zeal is an ancient culture. There were, mostly, strict lines in culture, about what people could hold what position. That of Guru seems to me one of those that would have been forbidden to women, at least in what I know of the form of ancient culture (some, it is true, freely allowed female rulers and the like - the Egyptians for example - but there they followed the practices of the male rulers, in Egypt even wearing the kingly beard.) The best solution I could think of to such a dilemma - and it is a dilemma of style and form, and to my eyes makes Zeal seem less as an ancient culture and more as a modern one - is to make a parallel order that is purely of women, the priestesses to the priests, so to speak. The female equivalent then could easily be Deva. This re-use would hardly be grievous - Black Wind is reused, after all. Then we could have three positions here as well, say the Deva of Ceremonies, or things to that effect. It would not be hard to have them intruduce themselves as the Deva of the Ceremonies, second of the womanly three, the ladies who sat across from the three lords.

In the end, I must say that it seems that a female fourth Guru seems more as what would happen in a fanfiction than in Crimson Echoes (which I hold to be far above fanfiction from what I have seen so far), and am merely attempting to keep it away from such ground.

Oh, sorry, didn't see your post, Hadriel. Well, to my mind, Deva worked because it is the real-life opposite to Guru. Personally, I never liked the sound of 'Guru' (if you've ever seen my story, I always name them 'Master'), so naturally prefer Oracle over Deva. I'll check the meaning of oracle, though. Hmmm... I thought it was Greek, I should have known better. It's Latin, oh well. I suppose thinking of the Oracle at Delphi deceived me. Hmmm... Oracle of the Ceremonies? Does that work? (that 'of the Ceremonies' I thought of today I thought worked interestingly.)


On the note of the position being hereditary, I wasn't clear.  I was referring to this specific Guru only, as this post has been sundered from Zeal for quite some time.

From what we worked out (Zeality, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working from memory), the Zeal originated in Calasperan beneath the sea.  When they created the continents now known as Zeal, three of the four Gurus went with the Royal Family to the sky.  The fourth, however, remained behind to rule Calasperan, becoming the de facto king.  While the Gurus of Zeal continued to be appointed, the Guru in Calasperan took on the manners of actual royalty, including passing his title to his heir.  This would be why our Guru is female - no male heirs, so the title falls to the firstborn daughter.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 14, 2005, 01:12:01 am
Quote from: Aitrus
On the note of the position being hereditary, I wasn't clear.  I was referring to this specific Guru only, as this post has been sundered from Zeal for quite some time.

From what we worked out (Zeality, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm working from memory), the Zeal originated in Calasperan beneath the sea.  When they created the continents now known as Zeal, three of the four Gurus went with the Royal Family to the sky.  The fourth, however, remained behind to rule Calasperan, becoming the de facto king.  While the Gurus of Zeal continued to be appointed, the Guru in Calasperan took on the manners of actual royalty, including passing his title to his heir.  This would be why our Guru is female - no male heirs, so the title falls to the firstborn daughter.


I do not think there should be a fourth Guru, personally. Is it possible to make it one of the Three say, perhaps, of Reason, with a new one appointed by the Royal family after the flight? This way the hallowed number three remains.

Now, I see what you mean by passing on to a woman, and indeed it makes more sense to me, in that she would then essentially be a queen as well. That does strike me better. However, I still think that Guru is plainly a male form of the rank, and that another should be used for the female version, even if it is the same position. Say, rather than the Guru of Reason, one has the Deva of Reason (or Oracle of Reason, or Mistress of Reason, etc.) In the same way that lord and king have different names for male and female, so should this, I believe.

Yet no-one liked my idea of a seperate order of priestesses of wisdom aside the three priests of wisdom? It would seem a good societal ordering, I think, each with their own responsabilities.

On a last note regarding what was said about the oppression of women. It is not so much oppression as it is the form of old culture or, rather, a culture in which each is given different responsability. Women cannot do all things men can, after all, and vice versa. And there is always tradition, a thing not to be flouted. Can there be a woman pope or priest or pastor, for example? It is not discrimination, it is simply tradition and order in society, as there must at needs be to stave off anarchy.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on July 14, 2005, 01:29:02 am
Regarding your priestesses idea, I like it, and in an actual society it would be a very good idea.  However, in a game, people like that should serve an actual purpose which I don't think would be very feasible in this one.

And as for the male/female aspect of the Guru/Deva debate, I think that here is where it's arbitrary, so as to avoid confusion.  Whether CC used the term Deva correctly or not makes no difference, as it has been done and cannot be undone.  To call Dyasavah a Deva would cause confusion between the two groups, when none is intended.  Just because it's improper from a grammar point of view doesn't neccessarily mean that it can't be done, and besides, over intervening years, the title "Guru" in Calasperan could very well have become gender-neutral.  Languages do change over time.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 14, 2005, 01:38:01 am
Well, I've seen female pastors, at the least.  Not so much for the Pope angle, though in the Babylon 5 universe the Pope at the time of the Shadow War is a female.

What I thought we did originally is that Zeal was at first a land-based civilization like any other.  After a long time and a lot of technological advancement, they began to catch wind of Lavos energy, and the kingdom split over that issue.  The ground-based Zeal was engulfed in a flood and presumed lost, though in reality it used its technology to survive beneath the waves, but it couldn't survive the catastrophe that Lavos created upon his awakening.

I didn't catch the bit about the order of priestesses; I've been up since 3 AM and missed a bunch of stuff.  That actually could work.

But anyway, on with the plot.  Is this going to be the breaking point?  If it is, then we need to work out what happens after it.  So far, we've got the following slated for that point:

Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 14, 2005, 11:13:37 am
Quote from: Daniel Krispin

On a last note regarding what was said about the oppression of women. It is not so much oppression as it is the form of old culture or, rather, a culture in which each is given different responsability. Women cannot do all things men can, after all, and vice versa. And there is always tradition, a thing not to be flouted. Can there be a woman pope or priest or pastor, for example? It is not discrimination, it is simply tradition and order in society, as there must at needs be to stave off anarchy.


I think that the old culture srted the oppression and by following the old culture we continue the oppression. Why can't a pope be a women, because God said that? They are both human, they both have a soul, they could both be pope, but a women couldn't because of tradition.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 14, 2005, 01:29:28 pm
Quote from: DarkGizmo
Quote from: Daniel Krispin

On a last note regarding what was said about the oppression of women. It is not so much oppression as it is the form of old culture or, rather, a culture in which each is given different responsability. Women cannot do all things men can, after all, and vice versa. And there is always tradition, a thing not to be flouted. Can there be a woman pope or priest or pastor, for example? It is not discrimination, it is simply tradition and order in society, as there must at needs be to stave off anarchy.


I think that the old culture srted the oppression and by following the old culture we continue the oppression. Why can't a pope be a women, because God said that? They are both human, they both have a soul, they could both be pope, but a women couldn't because of tradition.


Hey, don't get me started on this.

No, by no means whatsoever can the pope be a woman (and remember: I belong to a tradition that once considered the papacy the anti-christ, and stood in fierce opposition to the Roman Church.)

Firstly, the very name 'pope' means father. Secondly, no, God did not say it, but all his apostles were men and so considering the Church is a religious institution, going against such things is perilous. Yes, both men and women are human, yes they both have a soul, but not all people are allowed to do all things. To even want to, actually, is a sign of corruption and arrogance - wanting to for one's own sake, and because they want to, rather than for the good of the people. Thus for a woman to be a pope would be inherently sinful, if for that than for nothing else. The same goes for pastors. Women do not have the same emotional strength that men have, nor the same commanding precence, that a man does, and that is one of the chief reasons they should not be pastors. It is true there are men that also have neither, but the same holds true: they should not be pastors either. But the chief problem is this: why do they need to be? Why should they want to be? It is because of the very un-Christian preaching of the self, and that anyone should be able to do anything, a focus on the rights of the individual. The Church, for those who do not know, is not a democracy: it does not follow the whims of the people, nor does ascribe to what people in one age or another consider to be politically correct. One cannot go before God and tell him he is not doing things as we would like them to be. It is a monarchy. If these things exist in the secular world, there is little to be done about it, and must be abided, and has in the past century even been a good thing - there are many things women should be allowed to do that they were not able to before. But it truly, should be kept seperate from the Church. Again I must say: why would women even wish to be pastors, aside from being envious of the position of men? And is not envy a sin? Is there then discontent in the positions they have been given? And is that not, too, a sin?

This new thing of women being pastors is something I am adamantly against, even as I am against the Church accepting gay marriage (though if the secular world wishes to do it... well, let them do as they will, and let the Church do as it wills) the way the liturgy is no longer used and services instead are done at random and at whim, or the way praise songs have replaced traditional hymns (changing the focus from what God does for mankind, to a focus on feeling and emotion, and on the self - a perilous thing.) The Church all about is falling apart, and there are few who keep to the old traditions alive, or think them as relevant as they are. Even within the supposedly traditional Lutheran church, things are dying left and right.

By the way, just so you know, I'm not mysoginistic or anything like that, merely old-fashioned. As I said, I do not mind many of the secular freedoms that women have gained, but at times I see the feminist ideals very selfish, and stemming more from a desire to be like men than anything else (which to me seems extremely odd.) I mean, women are women and men are men, and each have their own roles. I don't see it as oppression to stick by these. My mother has essentially dedicated her life to raising her children, and never once has lamented not having a job - raising her children is her job, and has no less worth than my father working to provide for them. Everybody has their purpose and task, and it is simply not in the job description, as it were, of women to be pastors. In fact, I think to do such things depreciates them - it is almost an attempt to be like men, to which I think: they are women, they are unique from men. To do man's work takes away from their being women. Moreover, if women have been oppressed by men in the past, men in turn have been oppressed by circumstance: they have marched to war and died in the bloody battlefields, scarred themselves in hard labour, all as defenders and protectors and providers of home and family. That is their duty, whereas women care for the home itself (at least, in general.) I don't see how taking women from this place makes anything better - in fact, it is likely the cause for much of the difficulties with children these days, for none but a mother can raise children aright - or, moreover, makes them any more of a woman. Actually, to put it plainly, women being pastors strikes me as a very grave instance of someone crying 'me too!' when they see someone having something that they do not. Like I said, nothing against women - I hold women in higher regard and treat them with far more respect than most do - but some things should just be sacrosanct. That is what I fear: the loss of things sacred.

Oops, sorry, I have no intention of hijacking the illustrious CE thread. I'll shut up now.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 15, 2005, 03:49:15 am
Lol, According to the Da Vinci Code, the picture of the person sitting next to Jesus is Mary Magadline >.>
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 15, 2005, 01:39:34 pm
Quote from: Zaperking
Lol, According to the Da Vinci Code, the picture of the person sitting next to Jesus is Mary Magadline >.>


Well, such things are not very trustworthy, you know.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 17, 2005, 09:15:53 am
I've tried to type this post FIVE TIMES.  The computer's always either reset on me or I got busy and did something else.  But no more.  I originally knocked a bunch of this stuff out randomly, but then I got tired and went to sleep.  When I came back this post was miraculously still here, and I'd thought of some new stuff to put in it.

Anyway, we need the breaking point and El Nido to be developed.  I have no idea as of yet for the second, since I've focused on the first.  My idea is that when King Zeal cites the Frozen Flame's power and brings out an ideal version of Queen Zeal taken from some random discarded timeline, Janus knows it's bullshit, especially since he can feel Lavos' essence all over the damn thing.  At this point it's revealed that the entire city of Calasperan has been conjured back up from the Tesseract by the Frozen Flame.  He grabs Schala and tries to run for it, but gets trapped.

Meanwhile, Crono has found his way into the research wing of the palace, where he finds all kinds of wack-ass biomechanical experiments, similar to the Weapons in Final Fantasy, save that there are more varieties of weird stuff here than the Empire has TIE variants.  (<-- hyperbole yo)

Among this number are engineered creatures with various odd, specialized abilities that are nevertheless very effective.  Of course, Crono has to fight a boss to gain entry to the research core.  In this case, it's a bioengineered dragonlike cyborg with special skin that softens and hardens selectively.  I'm trying to think of a mechanism by which this could occur; natural or technological, it matters not.  I'm just looking for something halfway realistic to put in the battle messages when it does that...not to mention a name for it that isn't too terribly much of a ripoff of Final Fantasy, though if the committee decides now's the time for a little props that's fine too.  But all that aside, it's got some mean-ass lasers attached to its tentacles.  Fortunately, as a prototype, it ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.  Once that's accomplished, Crono gains access to the core, where instead of some giant uber-Weapon he finds Sorin as the centerpiece of the whole thing.  This is where Sorin's backstory, or at least a goodly portion of it, is to be revealed.  Sorin is convalescing from terrible wounds he took by accident in the battle at Dorino.  After part of his backstory is explained, Crono frees Dyasavah from a prison and she helps him rescue Janus and Schala by calling forth a Gate to Chronopolis, thus allowing him to bring two more party members through to help him.  After that, all of Calasperan descends into chaos as King Zeal and the Frozen Flame split the party apart during the breaking point.

For Sorin's backstory, I tried for a couple of days but couldn't come up with a damn thing.  So I finally enlisted the help of two good friends of mine, along with a few drunken idiots on the Battle.net chat channels.  For such an enigma, the concept I've (sorta) come up with for Sorin is something deeply tragic that reflects on the theme of the game we've managed to establish, that of personal attachment, which is in fact bolstered by the running "fate vs. free will" theme of the Chrono series in general.

It is a considerable task; Sorin's backstory had to occupy just as much significance to this game's plot as Janus did for the original.  Even more ironic is the fact that they serve as foils for each other; Sorin occupies Janus' CT plot function in this game, while Janus himself is struggling to rebuild his life from the wanton murderer he was in the previous installment.  On top of all that, his backstory has to do 3 things:

1) Involve William Ishito
2) explain why CM&L didn't die when he owned them back in Scenario 3
3) contain a crucial key to beating the Frozen Flame
4) be so tragic and painful that Hitler would hug a woobie for comfort after hearing it and then shut down all the concentration camps, retire and go to work for the Christian Children's Fund.  

To that end, I went into a D2 chat channel and asked "how many of you are drunk?"  A gazillion affirmations of drunkenness then clogged my chat window.  I followed that up with "you guys ever played Chrono Trigger?" and they're like OMFG BEST GAME EVAR!  I never have bad luck in those channels.

Anyway, after a time of sharing stories with people I had never met before and a couple friends of mine, I came up with a few things:

1) Sorin used to have a wife and they had a happy, unassuming life.  Then something REALLY REALLY BAD happened and she died.  Actually, he ended up killing her, for reasons I'll explain later.  This is part of what makes him nuts.

2) The only way he can have any kind of mental focus is the cybernetic implants Porre has given him.  Again, this is explained in a bit.

As for the resurrection, it's pretty complicated.

*takes a deep breath*

In Scenario 3, when he hit the characters, they were in fact supposed to vanish completely from all of existence, so maddened was Sorin.  This is because they indirectly caused all of his suffering.  This is because Sorin is the Chrono Break.  As we established earlier, the CB erases all versions of someone from existence completely; doing this to CM&L would mean that Lavos was never defeated.  If Lavos was never defeated, there would have been no need for the Time Crash and El Nido, subjects which Belthasar elaborates on during the actual El Nido scenario.  Without El Nido, Porre would not have militarized.  But, if Porre had never militarized, the situation in Guardia would be just as it was at the beginning of Chrono Trigger.  This would be all fine and dandy for Sorin, save for one thing; destroying the main cast prevents him from getting the Chrono Break in the lower-order timeline.  This is because without the crew, King Zeal would have been killed, but thanks to their interference in the Ocean Palace the destruction of Calasperan was delayed and he was allowed to escape.  As King Zeal was the one that ordered the Chrono Break to be designed, and Sorin embodies it, Sorin cannot reach his present state without Crono.  Thus, he cannot kill them in that way, which in fact was a stroke of luck for the crew; he's perfectly capable of killing them normally, but his uncontrollable rage and lack of knowledge blinded him to that.  The crew, as usual, is the exception rather than the rule; if he'd just killed some random redshirt, it would have had the desired effect.  But the fact that annihilating CM&L with the CB would override his actions in an earlier timeline makes it impossible for him to do so.

On the Chrono Break: As I mentioned earlier, King Zeal had it designed.  The actual process, as well as the design of the freaky crap mentioned earlier in Calasperan's research labs, was carried out by our female smart person/head scientist Dyasavah, or whatever we decide to name her.  Once Belthasar's lover, a zillion years ago when he didn't have wrinkles and a beard, they studied together and learned the secrets of the universe and stuff, but they too split during the Zealian Schism.  The knowledge she's gained both through study and from Belthasar enabled her to design the CB.  The weapon itself is something of an anomaly.  King Zeal and Lavos both have the same aims, but different purposes.  This involves Lavos' mega-huge master plan.  However, when Dyasavah figured out what they were going to use it for, she banished it to 1000 A.D. and implanted it into the man Sorin, replacing his biological heart.  However, when Lavos figured out what she'd done, he had King Zeal imprison and torture her.  He was just about to kill her when Crono freed her.

Now for Ishito's part in all of this; he's the current captain of the Black Wind.  Before that, he was a career military officer of unflagging loyalty to Porre, which is why their government picked him to head it up.  The Black Wind runs with the technology of ancient Zeal, except with less of it; King Zeal periodically visits them and grants them new pieces of tech.  This was all fine and dandy until Sorin went on a homicidal rampage.  William was Sorin's best friend since childhood, and he won't give him up without a fight.  William is unknowingly also part of his suffering; CM&L, as dangerous agents of the enemy, had to be dispatched, and the Porre government commissioned the Black Wind to do so.  Actually holding Truce was an optional secondary objective; the main point of Porre's assault was to get rid of them.  In essence, William sent Sorin on the ultimate torturous mission, one which he is too enraged and insane to accomplish successfully, which in turn adds to his insanity.

Sorin's ultimate fate is that of irony; the only way to resolve the paradox surrounding his existence is for the crew to do to him exactly what he would have done to them, obliterate him entirely.  However, it isn't the crew that ends up doing it; it's William, which makes it even more painful.  William doesn't have Time Traveler's Immunity, so he won't remember his best friend, but he doesn't know this before he does it.  After Sorin the being is gone, William forgets he ever existed, and 1002 A.D. is altered accordingly.  When the being dissolves from history, he leaves the Chrono Break to the party.  As the final insult, Dyasavah eventually learns that Belthasar's OK; she would have just sent the CB to him if she'd known that, but now she's a temporal murderer.  Oops.

So, to recap the sequence of events from least current timeline (lowest-order) to the current timeline:

~The Zealian Schism occurs as a result of the conflict over Lavos energy
~Team Crono interferes at Ocean Palace, allowing King Zeal to live
~Team Crono destroys Lavos, ensuring the El Nido paradox and thus Porre's militarization
~King Zeal lives and is enslaved by the Frozen Flame (irony of a sort since its grants his wishes), dreams up Calasperan and its population from the DBT
~King Zeal has the Chrono Break designed by Dyasavah
~Dyasavah figures out Lavos' master plan and banishes the CB to the 1000 A.D. era and into Sorin
~Sorin eventually goes insane from its influence and kills his wife, two children, and a bunch of other people
~Sorin's best friend William Ishito saves his friend with cybernetic implants and tries to rehabilitate him in the Black Wind program
~Sorin attempts to kill Crono, Marle and Lucca by wiping them from history; this doesn't work because their interference caused him to obtain the Chrono Break in a lower-order timeline; this in turn adds to Sorin's insanity and bent on vengeance
~The Breaking Point
~The El Nido sequence happens, with elaboration by Belthasar on the militarization of Porre
~William Ishito finally destroys his best friend by erasing him from history (still need to figure out exactly how and why this happens); all memory of Sorin is erased and Sorin's soul is banished to the Tesseract
~After King Zeal leaves Calasperan, Dyasavah learns that her lover Belthasar is still alive and weeps at what she did to Sorin

After that, all that's left is to fully develop the El Nido scenario and for me to reveal the demented and pretty damned heavy master plan I thought of.  Of course, there is a lot of potential for dialogue here...IMO, anyway.  Sorin could give some kind of monologue about death and precious things before he dies.  Dyasavah/Belthasar also constitute an opportunity, not to mention all the stuff Janus has the chance to say.  Suggestions, anyone?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shinrin on July 17, 2005, 02:48:26 pm
wow that's alot of stuff you thought of hadriel, so with this new storyline it will clear up some plot holes that are in chrono cross. This is starting to sound interesting. just keep up the good work, and i can't wait to test this stuff out when it comes time for it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 17, 2005, 05:13:42 pm
It's awesome, but the only thing that I'm not very keen on is the fact that Belthasar is sooo involved and important in the storyline. He's very involved in CT, and is very much a Matrixian "Architect" in CC. For his part, Gaspar is quite important in CT but does nothing in CC.

As for Melchior, the only thing we actually see him do in the whole series is repairing the Masamune just once...

Now in CT:CE, Gaspar is missing like in CC, Belthasar is still always omnipresent, and Melchior still seems to do (nearly?) nothing... And we're involving yet another new Guru (Deva w/e) instead of developing Melchior's role. It think it would be more balanced for the "Guru order" to have all the Gurus have more or less the same importance (probably in different domains though).

Of course it's just an opinion.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 17, 2005, 06:00:14 pm
The end of the game is going to be pretty Gaspar-heavy; the master plan involves the fate of the End of Time, Gaspar, and Spekkio.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 17, 2005, 06:51:24 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
The end of the game is going to be pretty Gaspar-heavy; the master plan involves the fate of the End of Time, Gaspar, and Spekkio.


OMG, Spekkio finally gets a semi-important role in the storyline except for a magic-bestower-god-thing!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 17, 2005, 07:14:31 pm
Quote from: Legend of the Past
Quote from: Hadriel
The end of the game is going to be pretty Gaspar-heavy; the master plan involves the fate of the End of Time, Gaspar, and Spekkio.


OMG, Spekkio finally gets a semi-important role in the storyline except for a magic-bestower-god-thing!

And Melchior is still doing nothing besides repairing the Masamune and contributing in putting Crono to Guardia's jail ;_;
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 17, 2005, 07:34:51 pm
He repairs and upgrades the party's armor and weapons this time around, though if it's a plot function you're looking for...yeah, Melchior does deserve a bigger part.  Both he and Gaspar will play a crucial role in the Calasperan sidequest, and there'll be a bunch of exposition on the Gurus.  The last bits of the Porre War will also involve Melchior.

I just caught a possible plot hole.  Upon playing the final version of the game, some people might think "If the Frozen Flame can summon all this crap out of the DBT, why doesn't it just call Lavos back?"  The main reason for this is the massive amount of influence Lavos has on the progression of time; the more such influence a thing has, the more magic power is required to sustain it in the corporeal world when causality would otherwise dictate its destruction or banishment to the DBT, and the Frozen Flame bereft of its master simply does not have the kind of power required to summon Lavos from the DBT.  Melchior and Belthasar explain this to the heroes after everyone is reunited following the breaking point.  

But for now, we need to develop the El Nido scenario completely.  After that, we have only the following to attend to:

~Reveal the fate of the End of Time, Gaspar, and Spekkio, and Lavos' master plan
~Save Calasperan from disappearing back into the DBT
~Fight the Frozen Flame
~Establish the fates of all the major characters in the ending
~Put in cute little extras for New Game +, as well as the obligatory uber-hard optional boss(es)

The quest-related tasks are an excellent opportunity to use all the Gurus in a storyline.  For the optional bosses, I'd thought to include two, much like they did in Cross.  One of them was the Criosphinx, accessible in the main game.  The other was the combined attack of Ozzie, Flea, and Slash.  So what I'm thinking is to have some crazy creature from Calasperan's lab be the first optional boss, and to have the second be a bunch of people who worked on the game, with custom sprites, sound effects and everything.  Several sets of people could even be used, each representing a different aspect of the game's development; almost like the Cups in Kingdom Hearts.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 18, 2005, 02:47:36 am
(http://cc.herograw.com/Zeality/CTCE/MedinaAuxiliary.png)

The Medina Auxiliary. Suggestions? How's the "Dojo" floor look?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on July 18, 2005, 02:56:47 am
Is the Dojo floor area supposed to be higher than the rest of the floor? It kind of has an eleveated look to it, but only because of the bottom part, sort of looks like a wall or the side of it if it were a platform... (hard to describe)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 18, 2005, 02:57:25 am
Yeah, sorta like a foot off the ground.

I'm going back to work with shadows and lighting in the dining area.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 18, 2005, 03:08:15 am
Quote from: Hadriel

~Put in cute little extras for New Game +, as well as the obligatory uber-hard optional boss(es)


lol I like that sentence

For the dojo it depends the anglae you look at it (sound wierd eh?)

If you look at the upper part it seem on the floor with some stick on the corner, if you check bottom it look like a platform elevated liek 1 foot from the floor
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 18, 2005, 03:41:36 am
Nice story Hadriel. It's good to know that Gaspar and Melchior will have a part in the end of game.

Heres a question:
Like you said that Crono and Co. save King Zeal in the Ocean Palace, wasn't he dead long before that?

And I just have a little comment, you don't need to take it or anything anyway:
You know how you said that Calasperan's Reseach Centre would have the lizard skin hardening and thickening research etc, I don't know but I personally feel that putting giving a Zealian type place a Biological Research Centre makes the whole Zealian conspect lose it's magical tough, and that's what makes Zeal so special.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 18, 2005, 04:00:26 am
Quote from: Zaperking
Nice story Hadriel. It's good to know that Gaspar and Melchior will have a part in the end of game.

Heres a question:
Like you said that Crono and Co. save King Zeal in the Ocean Palace, wasn't he dead long before that?

And I just have a little comment, you don't need to take it or anything anyway:
You know how you said that Calasperan's Reseach Centre would have the lizard skin hardening and thickening research etc, I don't know but I personally feel that putting giving a Zealian type place a Biological Research Centre makes the whole Zealian conspect lose it's magical tough, and that's what makes Zeal so special.


Not if it's relegated to the same sort of place as Kajar, perhaps.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 18, 2005, 05:54:16 am
The research that goes on there isn't strictly technological.  The creatures there are empowered with both technology and magic.

As I explained earlier, King Zeal died in the Lavos timeline, but Team Crono's interference in the Ocean Palace allowed him to live in Keystone T-1.  They didn't know this at the time.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 18, 2005, 06:41:55 am
Oo, I see.

And about Kajar, It was more of a magical research centre. Magic tabs are there... Elemental weapons would have been researched by Melchior, etc.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 18, 2005, 07:10:13 am
Well, the Calasperan research center focused on elemental power.  It's essentially a catch-all research facility that does everything from magic to biology to building walkers.  It's just that damn awesome.

Since there appears to be a good deal of demand for a Melchior storyline, I invite everyone to give us some ideas for one.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 18, 2005, 09:21:53 am
Maybe a consept of Dreams coming to reality, besides the Frozen Flame? I mean Melchior naturally is able to make his dreams come true, like Masa Mune and Doreen. Is there an explanation behind this? Also, I wana see him kick some ass XD And appear randomly like Ultraros in FF6 appears XD
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 18, 2005, 10:06:58 am
The Vanguard scenario could allow for a bit of Masamune stuff, but Melchior isn't going to kick any ass.  He's old.  Really, really old.  Besides, that's the team's job, not to mention that he's a completely different type of character from Ultros.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2005, 01:08:26 pm
I've been reading this for several hours now, and I must say... this sounds amazing.  Also, I noticed that Hadriel had said that some of the music from this was posted, and I feel a bit dumb for asking, but where is this posted at.  Lastly, is this the only place for info on this project, or is there a website with more information, or even the same information, just organized a bit?
Thanks in advance.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Anonymous on July 18, 2005, 01:10:48 pm
Quote from: Anonymous
I've been reading this for several hours now, and I must say... this sounds amazing.  Also, I noticed that Hadriel had said that some of the music from this was posted, and I feel a bit dumb for asking, but where is this posted at.  Lastly, is this the only place for info on this project, or is there a website with more information, or even the same information, just organized a bit?
Thanks in advance.


nevermind, I can't believe I didn't just go to the base forum... sorry about that, got a direct link to THIS forum page from CTRP forums
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 18, 2005, 01:22:01 pm
Quote from: Zaperking
Oo, I see.

And about Kajar, It was more of a magical research centre. Magic tabs are there... Elemental weapons would have been researched by Melchior, etc.


Well, I wager elemental weapons would be the field of Belthesar, come to think of it. Elements are still inherently things that are physical in the world, after all, and that, being a thing of logic and reason, even though it might be magic, is Belthesar's ground. Melchior deals in dream and things beyond logic, faith and things such as that: he is a mystic (not the race Mystic, I intend mystic as in he deals with the mystical.) His weapon, the Masamune, has no real physical form after all, and could fully disappear and not suffer any loss of being. It is not a sword: it is three spirits. It can cross space in an instant, etc. etc. So rather than forge a shape, or control the elements as to his purpose as Belthesar would do, he simply used the Dreamstone to echo his spirit, and created a 'palette' as it were, of three colours, those being Masa, Mune, and Doreen. Whenever the sword is used, it is like blending colours, though for long, because knowledge and power were the only requisites, Doreen, though not truly absent, was dormant (absent in a physical way, perhaps, but since the sword is not bound to a physical position, she can be 'away' from the sword, and yet not.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 18, 2005, 06:12:22 pm
I read a bit of the CTRP forums; there are a few guys there who've said that anything made with Temporal Flux will suck.  That gives us (or me, at least) more incentive to prove them wrong.

OK, now that we're pretty far into the plot and only have a few things left to go, it's time we came up with whatever alterations to the gameplay we're going to put in.  They'll be very minor ones, for sure.  One crucial thing came to my mind last night, the characters' weapons.  It'd be kind of boring (not to mention a stretch of credibility) if the characters got the same old weapons again.  Therefore, I've come up with a few new twists to put on the weapons system.

Instead of continually gaining new weapons, Melchior can improve some existing ones.  Several of these "series" of weapons are available.  Some of them have close to the same damage but special properties, such as enhanced criticals or elemental damage; this lends more strategic options to the characters.

For example, the weapon list I came up with for Crono is as follows:

~Vibrosword – This sword is gained after the party loses all their uber-weapons from using the Chrono Trigger to escape Porre.  It vibrates its blade for increased damage, but this can interfere woefully with accuracy.
~Vibrosword 2 – After a bit of experimentation, Melchior has solved the dexterity issue.  By doing this, he was also able to safely add to the attack power of the blade.  The sword has also been laced with nerve toxins, poisoning enemy victims.
~Vibrosword 3 – The final Vibrosword model, this one incorporates a solar battery with a powerful electrical discharge accompanying a strike, though this comes at the cost of the poison element of the previous version.  It’s useful for enemies that are resistant to physical damage, and those that fly, are machines, or are based on water. This is a good weapon to keep around even late into the game.
~Wakizashi – This is a small version of a katana.  Though its damage leaves something to be desired, it’s graced with extremely high accuracy and chance for a critical hit.  Couple this with a critical hit-increasing accessory and you’ve got yourself a good weapon against highly evasive enemies, such as flying ones, where the vibrosword would tend to miss.  It won't hold up against enemies later in the game, though.
~Wakizashi 2 – This wakizashi gives the same electrical discharge as the Vibrosword 3, in a more compact version, though it still lacks the physical damage of the bigger weapon.
~Daikatana – A large and powerful sword.  Midway through the game, Crono has regained enough of his former strength to use it with the same dexterity he can use a wakizashi with, though without the critical hit bonuses.  The dai-katana inflicts substantial damage and is the last of the “conventional” weapons Crono obtains.  It comes laced with Hydra venom.
~Daikatana 2 – In short order after you’ve obtained the daikatana, Melchior will upgrade it with an electric shock package.  Coupled with its sturdy construction and considerable physical damage, this makes it very effective against both flying enemies and machines.
~Phaseblade – A weapon constructed with Zealian magic and technology.  It is an ethereal weapon; part of it exists on the mortal plane, and part of it inhabits the spirit world.  It is an extremely damaging piece of equipment, though it has no added bonuses.  It’s weak against mechanical enemies, as they lack souls to damage.
~Beamsaber – Oh, come on.  You don’t think we’d let him get away without something like this, do you?  As you’d expect from something that looks like a lightsaber, it does massive damage.  Its color, and its damage, is based on Crono’s current percentage of hit points and ranges the full gamut of visible light, from blue at the top down to red at the bottom.  The weapon vanishes completely if Crono is knocked out.
~Arco Iris – A weapon created from Rainbow Shell refined by Magus and Melchior after the El Nido scenario.  It’s essentially an upgraded Rainbow Sword, even more powerful than the last because of the increased purity of the ore used to construct it.  A classical piece of elemental magic, it is the last weapon one can obtain from Melchior, and as such it is one of the best.
~Ara Dei – This is an upgraded version of Arco Iris, endowed with temporal magic.  The weapon’s name means Altar of God, and it can dish out the righteous fury like no other.  It has almost a 100% chance of dealing a critical hit.  It is Crono’s ultimate weapon, and requires completion of the Calasperan sidequest to be accessible.

The only problem is that the screen won't fit some of the names.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 18, 2005, 06:36:08 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I read a bit of the CTRP forums; there are a few guys there who've said that anything made with Temporal Flux will suck.  That gives us (or me, at least) more incentive to prove them wrong.

OK, now that we're pretty far into the plot and only have a few things left to go, it's time we came up with whatever alterations to the gameplay we're going to put in.  They'll be very minor ones, for sure.  One crucial thing came to my mind last night, the characters' weapons.  It'd be kind of boring (not to mention a stretch of credibility) if the characters got the same old weapons again.  Therefore, I've come up with a few new twists to put on the weapons system.

Instead of continually gaining new weapons, Melchior can improve some existing ones.  Several of these "series" of weapons are available.  Some of them have close to the same damage but special properties, such as enhanced criticals or elemental damage; this lends more strategic options to the characters.

For example, the weapon list I came up with for Crono is as follows:

~Vibrosword – This sword is gained after the party loses all their uber-weapons from using the Chrono Trigger to escape Porre.  It vibrates its blade for increased damage, but this can interfere woefully with accuracy.
~Vibrosword 2 – After a bit of experimentation, Melchior has solved the dexterity issue.  By doing this, he was also able to safely add to the attack power of the blade.  The sword has also been laced with nerve toxins, poisoning enemy victims.
~Vibrosword 3 – The final Vibrosword model, this one incorporates a solar battery with a powerful electrical discharge accompanying a strike, though this comes at the cost of the poison element of the previous version.  It’s useful for enemies that are resistant to physical damage, and those that fly, are machines, or are based on water. This is a good weapon to keep around even late into the game.
~Wakizashi – This is a small version of a katana.  Though its damage leaves something to be desired, it’s graced with extremely high accuracy and chance for a critical hit.  Couple this with a critical hit-increasing accessory and you’ve got yourself a good weapon against highly evasive enemies, such as flying ones, where the vibrosword would tend to miss.  It won't hold up against enemies later in the game, though.
~Wakizashi 2 – This wakizashi gives the same electrical discharge as the Vibrosword 3, in a more compact version, though it still lacks the physical damage of the bigger weapon.
~Daikatana – A large and powerful sword.  Midway through the game, Crono has regained enough of his former strength to use it with the same dexterity he can use a wakizashi with, though without the critical hit bonuses.  The dai-katana inflicts substantial damage and is the last of the “conventional” weapons Crono obtains.  It comes laced with Hydra venom.
~Daikatana 2 – In short order after you’ve obtained the daikatana, Melchior will upgrade it with an electric shock package.  Coupled with its sturdy construction and considerable physical damage, this makes it very effective against both flying enemies and machines.
~Phaseblade – A weapon constructed with Zealian magic and technology.  It is an ethereal weapon; part of it exists on the mortal plane, and part of it inhabits the spirit world.  It is an extremely damaging piece of equipment, though it has no added bonuses.  It’s weak against mechanical enemies, as they lack souls to damage.
~Beamsaber – Oh, come on.  You don’t think we’d let him get away without something like this, do you?  As you’d expect from something that looks like a lightsaber, it does massive damage.  Its color, and its damage, is based on Crono’s current percentage of hit points and ranges the full gamut of visible light, from blue at the top down to red at the bottom.  The weapon vanishes completely if Crono is knocked out.
~Arco Iris – A weapon created from Rainbow Shell refined by Magus and Melchior after the El Nido scenario.  It’s essentially an upgraded Rainbow Sword, even more powerful than the last because of the increased purity of the ore used to construct it.  A classical piece of elemental magic, it is the last weapon one can obtain from Melchior, and as such it is one of the best.
~Ara Dei – This is an upgraded version of Arco Iris, endowed with temporal magic.  The weapon’s name means Altar of God, and it can dish out the righteous fury like no other.  It has almost a 100% chance of dealing a critical hit.  It is Crono’s ultimate weapon, and requires completion of the Calasperan sidequest to be accessible.

The only problem is that the screen won't fit some of the names.


Okay, the naming of things is somewhere where I may in some measure be able to help. ZeaLitY put my name in the plot development but, to be honest, of late - and that means the last half-year - I've not been all too good at writing plot. However, if you ever need a good speech or grand description, or a choice selection of words in a more formal matter, I'm 90% sure I'll be able to help there (90% because I'm never quite sure if I'll be able to do well with my writing or not.) Such things would probably be more focussed to the founding-of-Guardia segment, and such things as that, but if I can, if you want me to, and if inspiration strikes me, I'll try. Anyway, as to the subject at hand... many of the names in CT were mythological and had meaning. In that regard, I may be able to offer suggestions based upon what I know of such things, to be considered and regarded or disregarded as you will.

Alright, for Glenn (if he loses the Masamune, somehow):

Caliburn
Few will know the origin of this name (as should be), for it comes from the Latin for 'steel', and is in fact an archaic Latin name for none other than Excalibur itself. Of course, that's the allusion, but it isn't overt.

For Crono, I think that there should not be multiple incarnations of a vibroblade or, at least, not all of the same name with Roman suffixes. If you wish, perhaps Vibro-blade, to Vibro-edge, to Vibro-sword would work better. Personally, however, I don't know if a vibroblade works quite right with Crono's persona. If he does use it, it does not seem something like mystical Melchior would forge; rather, it seems more like it would be an invention of Belthesar. I'll have more to say on the matter of weaponry, but my mind is rather dull right now, and I'm at work, so I'll give it some thought and post later.

Oh, a thought before I depart: what do you think of Kronian Sickle or something akin to that for Janus?

(Oh, and I WILL be looking at the plot so I know what's going on sometime soon. I've just not been in a good reading mood of late, the only thing I've been actually reading being the Iliad. I'll try and help with the actual program if I can, as well, but it seems that Temporal Flux doesn't work right on my computer. For that matter, I couldn't even patch the ROM right to play the demo things that had been done...)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 18, 2005, 06:54:18 pm
Melchior doesn't just make mystic weapons; he does normal ones, too, but the final couple of weapons in each character's sequence will always have mythological or historical names.  I came up with a weapon sequence for Lucca, too, but I can't think of anything good for the final two weapons, which are basically focused energy beam weapons with an M/AM power system.  The gun uses dark matter to control the blasts and it's made out of Rainbow Shell for extra protection and durability.  The only thing I'd come up with for it is the Annihilator, but that's lame.  I need something that'll terrify enemies and uplift righteous spirits, and again for the weapon's sequel.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 18, 2005, 07:28:55 pm
One of the most awesome weapon names ever: The Ultimate Nullifier.

It's the one thing that Galactus fears. Or something :P

Holy shit, I just thought...wouldn't it be awesome if in another Fantastic Four movie (still haven't seen the one out now) if they had Silver Surfer & Galactus show up? I know getting the rights would be a bitch...But damn that'd be so awesome to see[/endthreadhijacking]
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 18, 2005, 07:56:45 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Alright, for Glenn (if he loses the Masamune, somehow):

Caliburn
Few will know the origin of this name (as should be), for it comes from the Latin for 'steel', and is in fact an archaic Latin name for none other than Excalibur itself. Of course, that's the allusion, but it isn't overt.

For Crono, I think that there should not be multiple incarnations of a vibroblade or, at least, not all of the same name with Roman suffixes. If you wish, perhaps Vibro-blade, to Vibro-edge, to Vibro-sword would work better. Personally, however, I don't know if a vibroblade works quite right with Crono's persona. If he does use it, it does not seem something like mystical Melchior would forge; rather, it seems more like it would be an invention of Belthesar. I'll have more to say on the matter of weaponry, but my mind is rather dull right now, and I'm at work, so I'll give it some thought and post later.

Oh, a thought before I depart: what do you think of Kronian Sickle or something akin to that for Janus?

Mmh yeah, in my humble opinion, mythological names would sound best in the Chrono universe. Arco Iris and Ara Dei sound good, but somehow phaseblade and lightsa-- I mean beamsaber are a little bit out of place in the series. I think they sound too Xenogears-like and cyberpunk for Chrono... Globally, the weapons in the series were always forged from natural minerals, like Denadorite, Rainbow Shell or Dreamstone, and had very simple ("Pico gun" :) ) or mythological names. So suddenly having energy blades and huge hi-tech weapons with technical names which only describe their functions is quite a difference.

But I'll try to find some names instead of just "ranting". I have some knowledge in mythologies but a hard time remembering specific stuff when needed...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 18, 2005, 09:46:22 pm
I think w/the team's (& especially Lucca's) experience w/the future & the future's weaponry, it's not impossible that such large advancements would be made.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 18, 2005, 10:37:16 pm
That's true, though I think it's not really fitting for the Chrono universe...  EXCEPT for Lucca.  I can see her and her alone using weapons called the "Annihilator" and so on...  But go through the list of her current weapons and see what inspiration may strike you...  Her final weapon is called the "Wonder Shot," so that sets a tone of...

[Wonder] = The nice, "uplifting" part referred to earlier...would refer to justice and the judging hand of all which is right.

[Shot] = The gun part. =P  So, synonyms for this that could be stuck in there would be Gun, Cannon, Pistol, etc, etc...

Follow the pattern and pull out some synonyms and maybe we get something like...  Hmm...  Miracle Cannon?  Just an example, and a lame one, but I'm at work right now so my imagination's busted. =P  See if you can't come up with something better. :)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 18, 2005, 10:55:39 pm
Butting in here, but I thought of a Masamune-esque quote for the Arco Dei while out running.

"Shall you use it to send your enemies to kneel at the the altar of God? Or shall it be cause for them to bow to you?"
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 18, 2005, 10:59:27 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Butting in here, but I thought of a Masamune-esque quote for the Arco Dei while out running.

"Shall you use it to send your enemies to kneel at the the altar of God? Or shall it be cause for them to bow to you?"


Sounds very good, though I'm not sure how you intend it. To me it sounds like 'will you use it in righteousness or in self-glory', but that's probably just my own interpretation of the line. I'm still trying to think of some, by the way.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 18, 2005, 11:03:07 pm
Yeah, I think that's what I meant to. It's a pretty vague statement. I'm also not sure how it would relate to Crono or have any meaning, considering all you can do is use it for good.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 18, 2005, 11:34:51 pm
This sounds like Dungeon Siege, that boring game I played a while ago, you play with a team of 4 if I rememebr well or up to 6 anyway you have spells bow and guns and it's a click-fest, but later in the game you get inside some goblins caves with robots and tanks and guns... Very out of the place...

When i finished this dungeon, all my melee had lightsabers and my reanged had laser guns...

I stopped playing after this it got really boring...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 19, 2005, 03:12:21 am
Hey, Will there be game genie cheat codes for the game? XD I love playing with cheats for the first time to get the plot, and then  I play legit the second time around xD
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 19, 2005, 03:41:23 am
You tell ME.  The programmers don't make cheat codes, the players do.  So it'll depend on your emulator.

In other words, yes, you can theoretically cheat at it no matter what we do.  If you're just wanting infinite HP/MP, that'll probably work because more than likely we'll still store the characters' HP and MP in the same addresses as the original version, to ensure the game's stability.  If I was you, though, I wouldn't do much more than that.  ROM hacks are generally a lot more unstable easier to crash than original games when it comes to cheat codes.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 19, 2005, 03:45:35 am
I dunno, Jake-A-Roonie, some of the Japanese names for the weapons were a lot more unique and...I dunno...this isn't the exact word I'm looking for, but, fancy, sounding. Although Masamune would qualify, I like Grandleon/Grandlion a lot better for some reason...Masamune just gets overused.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 19, 2005, 03:47:26 am
I agree...and Masamune was a katana anyway. =P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 19, 2005, 08:52:48 am
It was ? Like in japanese legend?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 19, 2005, 11:00:44 am
Yeah, the Masamune & its twinner (in the Dark Tower sense :P) the Murasame.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 19, 2005, 11:53:41 am
The weapon names are for greater realism, since with the exception of the phaseblade and beamsaber, all of them are actual words, and lightsaber's already in the dictionary anyway.  The weapon names' simplicity (and often technical incorrectness) was one of my gripes with Trigger.  Lucca's plasma gun neither functioned like nor physically resembled what an actual plasma gun would be like, save that it would be pretty ineffective.  Not only that, the sword types come into question; I've never heard of a Demon Hit class of sword.  Pico Magnum? WTF is that? I can forgive the Masamune blooper because of the large role it played in the storyline.  But aside from those, it really is quite unreasonable that someone could find a better weapon in 600 A.D. than in 2300 A.D., unless it was a legendary weapon like the Masamune.  

And hey, if the game was actually cyberpunk, everyone would waltz around in black leather, deliver stilted dialogue, and wear sunglasses indoors.  :p

Chrono is based on a lot of the same ethical and moral principles as Xenogears, save that Xenogears takes place a few dozen millennia in the future and the main part of Chrono happens a thousand years ago.  The same "hey, God sucks, let's go kill him" vibe is there.

The best weapons in the game still are forged from natural minerals such as Rainbow Shell.  Most of the characters' ultimate weapons are composed of either that or Dreamstone.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 19, 2005, 03:44:11 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
]The weapon names are for greater realism, since with the exception of the phaseblade and beamsaber, all of them are actual words, and lightsaber's already in the dictionary anyway.  The weapon names' simplicity (and often technical incorrectness) was one of my gripes with Trigger.  Lucca's plasma gun neither functioned like nor physically resembled what an actual plasma gun would be like, save that it would be pretty ineffective.  Not only that, the sword types come into question; I've never heard of a Demon Hit class of sword.  Pico Magnum? WTF is that? I can forgive the Masamune blooper because of the large role it played in the storyline.  But aside from those, it really is quite unreasonable that someone could find a better weapon in 600 A.D. than in 2300 A.D., unless it was a legendary weapon like the Masamune.


Well, I find little problem with the names of the weaponry from Chrono Trigger, personally, and found them very inventive and technically alright. Why would a Plasma Gun not work? Could you not have a shell of super-heated gas that explodes upon impact? Auto-gun - as in auto-reloading - air-gun, and most others are just fine. Demon Hit is not a class of sword, but neither is a broadsword, and you know how often people use that term? Or chain-mail? And one can not call into account most of the mythical ones. Personally, I don't quite agree with the whole vibroblade/lightsaber type thing anyway, it doesn't quite fit. My mind is VERY slow at the moment, though, so I'm not being very inventive thinking of weaponry names. It should, though, follow the same mould as Chrono Trigger, that is, the first few swords and bows named for material – though not too many of these, for these are RPG cliché standard - the gun a fantastical description of its operation, the later swords descriptive of what they are/possess (ie. Rune Blade). Etc. etc. but coming in the end to the mythical ones. The problem with having mythical swords, and I don’t mean with mythical connotations like Siren or Valkyrie, but swords that are actually from myth, like my suggestion Durandal, is that there are probably a lot of RPGs that do this, for which I think they should be stayed away from. For mythical, it should be a mythical reference.

Now, I'm just going to toss a few out I thought of yesterday. I'm not guaranteeing any will be good, though. I’m not feeling all that creative for some reason. Usually ideas for such a thing like this would come to me no problem.

Marle:

FarShooter (this would be a mythical one, as 'Far-Shooter' was the epithet of the archer Apollo)
Apollon (just a bow named after Apollo, like Valkyrie and Siren were mythical)
Ash Bow
Yew Bow (yew, for certain, is a good bow material, and would make a good starter weapon)
Alexandros (ie. Paris, for he was an archer)
Paris' Bow (I think everyone knows this one)
Pandaurus (A famous archer for the Trojans)
Fairy Bow/Fay Arrow (with fairy/fay meaning the same thing)
Ivory Bow (Ivory could perhaps be used in composite bows)
Skadi'sBow (Not sure if Skadi would have used a bow, but she was a giant in Norse myth, the daughter of the ice-god Thiassi, thus connecting her to Marle)
Ishtar (A warrior goddess of the old Babylonians – not of the Sumerians, though, they named her Inanna – and a moon-goddess. I’ve always thought it has an interesting sound. It may not have much to do with bows, but then again, neither does Valkyrie or Siren.)

Lucca:

Flintlock (simple, realistic, and antiquated. Good for a 'first' weapon.)
QuantaShot (Quanta being a small unit in Greek I think, and also having scientific connotations.)
Blaster (A normal laser gun? I don’t know, this is another lame one, I think.)
Snipe Shot (Snipe’s are hard birds to hit, so perhaps this increases the chance of a critical hit, or speed?)

Glenn:

Falchion (A type of one-edge sword)
Sarissa (I saw this in Age of Mythology, but I knew the name before. This was a small Hoplite sword.)
ArmingEdge (An arming sword was usually the smaller sword a knight carried, also called a Short Sword – but arming sword sounds far better.)
Durandal (I first heard this name in Xenosaga, but there it was used as the name of a ship. It is in truth the sword of the hero Roland which, I read recently, was said to have itself been before that the sword of Hektor of Troy.)
Gilt Sword (ie. Gilt means it has gold layered onto it.)
Gram (Famous sword from Norse legend.)
DwarfSword (In all northern traditions, Dwarves fashioned spectacular weaponry. Now, we know for a fact that there are Dwarves in the Chrono world, so I think a DwarfSword may be fitting.)


Magus (I was going to suggest Kronian Sickle, but there isn’t enough room.):
Hell Scythe (A very lame idea, I know, but I’m not thinking too well, as I said.)
Eclipse (Another lame one)
Thanatos (ie. The Grim Reaper of Greek myth.)
Erebos (the Darkness in Greek Myth, a primeival deity sprung from Chaos.)
Hades’Fury (Yet another lame one. For Janus’ weapons, one must be careful not to make them over-wrought. Then again, DoomSickle isn’t exactly a subtle name, either.)
FellScythe (Fell, as in, perilous, merciless, and deadly.)
Reaper (Well… cliché, maybe, but one does reap with a scythe.)

Crono:
Jade Hilt (Jade was highly prized in the east. In China more-so, I think, but even so, I like this name.)
Truesilver (CC uses the term Mithril now and again for silver. Well, it’s slightly wrong, but not fully. Mithril is indeed called silver now and again in LOTR, but rather Truesilver. Thus this is essentially a Mithril Sword, but with a sneakier name.)

Like I said, I can’t think aright, I’m just throwing down ideas. It really bothers me as well, because I should be able to think up things like this in a heartbeat. But anyway, my favourite of the ones that I listed are:
Ash Bow, Yew Bow, Apollon, FarShooter, Fairy Bow, Ivory Bow, Ishtar Bow, Flintlock, QuantaShot, SnipeShot, ArmingEdge, Gilt Sword, DwarfSword, Erebos, Reaper, Jade Hilt, and Truesilver.

What do you think, Hadriel, ZeaLitY? I’ll try to think of some more and better – looking at the inventive names of the actual ones in CT daunts me, it seems my mind cannot think so creatively right now – but just consider these, as I think they are viable.

Oh, as an after-note, I finally got Temporal Flux working. The events are a pain to figure my way through, but I think I know how the maps and exits work now. I got Crono to teleport from his bedroom to Kajar, and the people in Kajar to say different things. I then went on to change some events, but I must have made it unstable, because Kajar loaded dark (I also tried having Magus join instead of Marle at the fair, but all I got was Marle claiming she was Magus: funny, but not the intended result.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 19, 2005, 03:52:30 pm
Good initiative; if you'd like, http://www.chronocompendium.com/wiki/index.php?title=Creating_a_small_scene_between_NPCs is now complete. It gives examples of making simple NPCs, if you wish to learn.

I like the names thus far. Yew Bow would be an excellent starter, and the introduction of more mythic names is proving interesting.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 19, 2005, 04:37:22 pm
If there was a physical shell filled with plasma, it would be much like an RPG launcher that launched plasma grenades, which incidentally is a weapon I came up with for Lucca.  The plasma gun in the original game purported that the projectile itself was made of the substance, which is erroneous.  Plasma itself would have a pathetic range, due to its natural state; it's gas that's been ionized by being heated to such temperatures that the electrons are stripped away, and such gas would not stay together.  In essence, a plasma gun would be more akin to shooting hot steam at someone.  

On Marle's weapons: Those are some pretty awesome names, and they're a lot better than anything I'd come up with.  What I'd thought of is a sort of "rail crossbow."  Admittedly, though, it'd be hard to best such a weapon, but it is quite likely that Chronopolis possesses such things.  There are only two issues with those names: Paris' Bow is unnecessary seeing as Alexandros is already present, and the Fairy Bow has the same name as the one used by Link in Ocarina of Time, which might piss some people off.  Ishtar could be replaced by something relating to time.

On Lucca's weapons: Because of the presence of Melchior and Belthasar in Chronopolis, Lucca will likely have some very heavy artillery such as high-powered sniper rifles even from the very start of the game.  As 2300 A.D. is clearly meant to be futuristic and obviously is three hundred years ahead of us, one would expect the technology to have advanced even beyond our already considerable firearm capabilities.  I do like the QuantaShot name, though.

On Glenn's weapons: In Scenario 8, the one that introduces the Vanguard and puts Glenn back on the team, Serran gets hold of the Masamune for a limited period of time.  When the team retrieves it, its power has been diluted from being in his hands.  This would allow for other weaponry such as that which you suggested, because Gram, Durandal, and a dwarven sword are just too good to pass up.  At the end, though, he would acquire a supremely powerful version of the Masamune.  This would make sense seeing as it's already the best weapon when you get it in Cross.

On Magus' weapons: Why not give them all mythological names?  Thanatos, Erebos, and such are good, but there are a bunch of mighty warriors and evil spirits out there.  Why not Astaroth, or some crazy war god from Japan?  

On Crono's weapons: I'd avoid using mithril, namely because every RPG and its grandma has that.  His weapons are mostly Eastern in their style, but that didn't stop them from making Masamune a broadsword.  He has to restock something after they go through the time warp that takes away all their awesome weapons from CT, and since he's in Chronopolis it's going to be something technological.   After that, we can move on to Jade Hilt and other things.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 19, 2005, 06:27:55 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
If there was a physical shell filled with plasma, it would be much like an RPG launcher that launched plasma grenades, which incidentally is a weapon I came up with for Lucca.  The plasma gun in the original game purported that the projectile itself was made of the substance, which is erroneous.  Plasma itself would have a pathetic range, due to its natural state; it's gas that's been ionized by being heated to such temperatures that the electrons are stripped away, and such gas would not stay together.  In essence, a plasma gun would be more akin to shooting hot steam at someone.  

On Marle's weapons: Those are some pretty awesome names, and they're a lot better than anything I'd come up with.  What I'd thought of is a sort of "rail crossbow."  Admittedly, though, it'd be hard to best such a weapon, but it is quite likely that Chronopolis possesses such things.  There are only two issues with those names: Paris' Bow is unnecessary seeing as Alexandros is already present, and the Fairy Bow has the same name as the one used by Link in Ocarina of Time, which might piss some people off.  Ishtar could be replaced by something relating to time.


Well, I'm not sure if you read me 'final' list near the end of my post or not, but I took out all of them I didn't really like, leaving the ones I thought better. Alexandros and Paris I got rid of, though I did like the Fairy Bow one, not knowing it was already in another game. What about Fay Arrow, then? Fay and fairy are essentially the same, after all. And as for Ishtar, hmmm... well, Babylonians would have had no god for time that I know of. One might say KronianBow, as in, to do with Kronos, but he had a sickle, not a bow.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Lucca's weapons: Because of the presence of Melchior and Belthasar in Chronopolis, Lucca will likely have some very heavy artillery such as high-powered sniper rifles even from the very start of the game.  As 2300 A.D. is clearly meant to be futuristic and obviously is three hundred years ahead of us, one would expect the technology to have advanced even beyond our already considerable firearm capabilities.  I do like the QuantaShot name, though.


Ah, all right. I had a difficult time with hers, as it is.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Glenn's weapons: In Scenario 8, the one that introduces the Vanguard and puts Glenn back on the team, Serran gets hold of the Masamune for a limited period of time.  When the team retrieves it, its power has been diluted from being in his hands.  This would allow for other weaponry such as that which you suggested, because Gram, Durandal, and a dwarven sword are just too good to pass up.  At the end, though, he would acquire a supremely powerful version of the Masamune.  This would make sense seeing as it's already the best weapon when you get it in Cross.


Well, as I said in my last preamble, I actually don't like the idea of true mythological weapons, in the off chance that they've already been used (and the neccessary explanation of how they found their way into the Chrono world.) Caliburn is the only one I think should be considered, as it is so unknown.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Magus' weapons: Why not give them all mythological names?  Thanatos, Erebos, and such are good, but there are a bunch of mighty warriors and evil spirits out there.  Why not Astaroth, or some crazy war god from Japan?


Well, let's see what I can think of as far as evil and nasty things from myth... Thanatos and Erebos as I mentioned, Charon, Typhoeus, Hekate, Eris... though come to think of what you said, lesser things might be better. A general type of thing, rather than a name proper. Like 'Gorgon' (though that's a stupid one). Oh, and I don't off hand know any Japanese war gods. All I know are... what are they called, Inzanami and Inzagami, Ameteratsu, and a few things like that.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Crono's weapons: I'd avoid using mithril, namely because every RPG and its grandma has that.  His weapons are mostly Eastern in their style, but that didn't stop them from making Masamune a broadsword.  He has to restock something after they go through the time warp that takes away all their awesome weapons from CT, and since he's in Chronopolis it's going to be something technological.   After that, we can move on to Jade Hilt and other things.


Well, as I said, not one in one hundred people will know that Truesilver is mithril, guarenteed. The silver ties in with Chrono Cross, a little, but does not directly reference mithril. And I think Truesilver has a neat ring to it.

Oh, and the Masamune is not a broadsword. It is a two-handed sword, a greatsword, or whatever... but not a broadsword.

I'll try to think of some more weapons. In light of what's been said, I would say of my previous list the ones that could for now be still considered are:

Yew Bow, Apollon or FarShooter, Fay Arrow, Ivory Bow, QuantaShot, SnipeShot, ArmingEdge, Gilt Sword, DwarfSword, Erebos, Jade Hilt, and Truesilver.

How does that sound? That's only... four for Marle, two for Lucca, three for Glenn, one for Magus, and two for Crono.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 19, 2005, 07:48:04 pm
Wow.  I've spent the last few hours reading all of this, and, as Marcy would say, I am, like, totally impressed.  I won't comment too much on the plot.  It's simply too vast to pick apart, and there's very little I could add that's new.  I will say, though, that I like it.  A lot!

Now, a few concerns.  I really don't like the bit about Kino biting the big one.  I don't think this adds anything, and it's just a bummer.  I think Kino should be the one explaining the events in his time to CML.  He's the only face from that era that the player will immediately identify with and be glad to see.  Keep him around.

Also, about this fourth guru/deva business.  I think the character and concept surrounding her are good and should stay, but please do not make her THE FOURTH GURU.  There were only three Magi and three acknowledged gurus of Zeal.  It's too big a stretch to add one now.  I argue it would be better to simply have her be analagous to the Gurus.  Perhaps even their equal--but not truly a long-lost member of their group.  It simply does not work, not with the convention by which the Gurus were named in Trigger.

Lastly, weapon/tech names.  Please avoid references to concrete mythological weapons or objects such as Gram and Durandal.  I've seen these in every game from Phantasy Star to Castlevania and they are tired.  Not as cliche as Excalibur, but getting there, due to the number of times they've been used.  I agree with whoever it was that said that more general mythological terms, such as names of places or creatures or whatever, are preferable.  Also, I think it's possible to be too smart by half on this one.  Obscure references are fine, but ones that nobody can understand don't really accomplish what they intend to.

Most of the names you all came up with are fantastic, though.  Arco Dei is awesome, and I also like the more simple names, like Robo's Clasp.  It's perfect.

How about some more Chrono references in names?  "God of War" might make a good name for any weapon.  "Black Wind" would also be a good choice, though you might want to bypass that one since you're already using the name somewhere else.  I REALLY like "Wild Heckran" myself.  Personally, I think "Radical Dream" is the obvious chocie for Lucca's final weapon.  Not only does it tie in with Kid, but it's a nice parallel to the Green Dream from her beloved Robo.  Or maybe simply "Omega" or "OmegaShot" or whatever.  I also like "Naveed," which means "bearer of good news" in Arabic or somesuch.

If you are going to allow references from other Square games, especially from the Trigger era (And you already have Masamune, so why not?), then Save the Queen might be an appropriate uber-weapon for Glenn.

Here are some other names that came to my mind:

Marle:  Cherubim, William Tell
Magus:  Harvester, Massacre, Equalizer

I'd like to see Shock Wave and Raven Armor return, simply because I love them.  I'd also like to see PicoMagnum, Graedus, SeraphSong, and the other equippables we missed out on.  And while you're at it, why not Zonker38, which was referenced but did not exist as an item?

Now, about Schala.  Obviously, having playable Schala is every Trigger fan's fantasy from way back.  But... how will you accomplish this?  Are you definitely going to be able to edit single techs or add new ones?  You should consider your options if not.  In either case, what abilities would Schala have that make her distinctive and useful, and what sort of weapons would she use?  The possibilities are endless.

Also:  I like how the opening scene mirrors Crono's Marle-as-Mom dream from Trigger, not to mention the openings of both Trigger and Cross.  I also like the idea of Lucca inventing some newfangled car.

Finally, I'd just like to add that all of the samples of new graphics and music I've seen are top notch!  Keep up the great work!!!

Oswego del Fuego
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 19, 2005, 07:59:39 pm
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Wow.  I've spent the last few hours reading all of this, and, as Marcy would say, I am, like, totally impressed.  I won't comment too much on the plot.  It's simply too vast to pick apart, and there's very little I could add that's new.  I will say, though, that I like it.  A lot!

Now, a few concerns.  I really don't like the bit about Kino biting the big one.  I don't think this adds anything, and it's just a bummer.  I think Kino should be the one explaining the events in his time to CML.  He's the only face from that era that the player will immediately identify with and be glad to see.  Keep him around.

Also, about this fourth guru/deva business.  I think the character and concept surrounding her are good and should stay, but please do not make her THE FOURTH GURU.  There were only three Magi and three acknowledged gurus of Zeal.  It's too big a stretch to add one now.  I argue it would be better to simply have her be analagous to the Gurus.  Perhaps even their equal--but not truly a long-lost member of their group.  It simply does not work, not with the convention by which the Gurus were named in Trigger.

Lastly, weapon/tech names.  Please avoid references to concrete mythological weapons or objects such as Gram and Durandal.  I've seen these in every game from Phantasy Star to Castlevania and they are tired.  Not as cliche as Excalibur, but getting there, due to the number of times they've been used.  I agree with whoever it was that said that more general mythological terms, such as names of places or creatures or whatever, are preferable.  Also, I think it's possible to be too smart by half on this one.  Obscure references are fine, but ones that nobody can understand don't really accomplish what they intend to.

Most of the names you all came up with are fantastic, though.  Arco Dei is awesome, and I also like the more simple names, like Robo's Clasp.  It's perfect.

How about some more Chrono references in names?  "God of War" might make a good name for any weapon.  "Black Wind" would also be a good choice, though you might want to bypass that one since you're already using the name somewhere else.  I REALLY like "Wild Heckran" myself.  Personally, I think "Radical Dream" is the obvious chocie for Lucca's final weapon.  Not only does it tie in with Kid, but it's a nice parallel to the Green Dream from her beloved Robo.  Or maybe simply "Omega" or "OmegaShot" or whatever.  I also like "Naveed," which means "bearer of good news" in Arabic or somesuch.

If you are going to allow references from other Square games, especially from the Trigger era (And you already have Masamune, so why not?), then Save the Queen might be an appropriate uber-weapon for Glenn.

Here are some other names that came to my mind:

Marle:  Cherubim, William Tell
Magus:  Harvester, Massacre, Equalizer


Well, Truesilver was not meant as an allusion, actually. I just thought it sounds good, and got the idea from 'true silver', but it is fine by itself, too. And I fully agree with you about the mythological names of weapons that already are weapons (despite the fact that I was the one that listed most of those.)

Naveed, in my opinion, would be a good choice, and to everyone else in the project, I recommend it. Probably best for a bow, I think, or perhaps gun. Cherubim (perhaps written in the more correct Kerubim?) is also good.

There is a problem with most of your other names, however, and that is that they are too long. CT won't allow anything beyond 10 letters, otherwise I was going to put KronianSickle for Magus. As for 'William Tell', actually, that one did cross my mind, in a shorter version of 'Tell Bow', but I never wrote it down. With Magus' weapons, though, I think Hadriel was right, and they should stay with the names of evil spirits of mythology and the like. Erebus, and so forth.

Anybody keeping a running track of ideas that have not yet been discarded?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 19, 2005, 08:10:12 pm
There will be a time when this entire thread will be reviewed. Its real flaw is that it contains so much information.

In terms of Schala, right now I am not totally sure it can be done, simply because of those difficulties. We can graphically replace Ayla, but I am not sure how we can technically modify her attacks and animations. Techs are also seeming like a far off dream right now, bordering impossibility. I have not deeply consulted with the real rom hackers on this though, so I'm not sure if it is totally unfeasible or not.

Also, concerning Glenn, I'm not sure if we can make him human either. It wouldn't be as simple as replacing Frog's sprite, because Frog is 4 feet versus Glenn's 6 feet. However, Frog's 4 feet sprites are packed into the rom neatly. I have no idea how we'd expand those.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 19, 2005, 09:31:14 pm
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Now, a few concerns.  I really don't like the bit about Kino biting the big one.  I don't think this adds anything, and it's just a bummer.  I think Kino should be the one explaining the events in his time to CML.  He's the only face from that era that the player will immediately identify with and be glad to see.  Keep him around.


I'm glad you said such great things about the game.  [ego]And you haven't even seen MY work yet! ;) [/ego] :lol:  I'm really hoping Geiger or someone will discover the secret to Schala soon...we are so close!

As for what you said about Kino, I just had to throw in my 2 cents on that...  I don't know who made the decision to kill off Kino or why they chose to, but I more or less agreed with it...  Basically because in my eyes, Kino was always a nuissance.  I may immediately identify him, but I've never been glad to see him.  First time you meet him, he's jealous of you.  Then he steals your gate key.  Then, with your gate key, he gets raped by some reptites and they take it so you can go and risk your life because he's an ass.  Then he goes and gets captured and taken to the Tyrano Lair.  Thank God he didn't screw up when he went to get the dactyls right before Lavos landed!  The guy was just a moron...He was bound to get killed sooner or later... In MY opinion anyway.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 19, 2005, 09:50:52 pm
Good point about Truesilver.  It can stay.

The thing about Kino biting it is precisely that: it is a bummer.  We've taken every opportunity to physically and emotionally kick the shit out of the cast, up to and including Lavos himself.

About Dyasavah: We'd decided against making her the fourth Guru.  Rather, she'll be the head of an order of Zealian priestesses.  I'd thought of something similar to the techno-priests of Isaac Asimov's Foundation trilogy, as technology versus culture is part of the Chrono series' theme.  Ultimately, the desire for uber-technology took down Zeal.

The weapon names are actually Ara Dei and Arco Iris, unless I was more out of it than I thought when I typed them.  Ara Dei is Latin, means "altar of God" and comes courtesy of Daniel.  Arco Iris is probably the only phrase in Spanish that I'll remember outside of basic stuff like como estas.  It means "rainbow."

As I recall, a Chrono "mythology" is what the ZEAL Project was trying to establish a bit of.  Some Mystic mythology would likely form the bulk of such names; usage of Islamic and pagan cultures may serve well for that, due to the various similarities between them.  A bit of Zealian mythology regarding the elemental forces and the power of the planet might also be used.  Wild Heckran is definitely usable.

As far as other Square games go: We might be importing some FF6 music for use in CE.  However, if we can, we're going to try to compose several original tunes of our own for it.  Sephiroth is technically a viable name for Magus' ultimate weapon, as it means "divine pronouncement" in Yiddish, I believe.  The name originates from Jewish Kabbalah.  Unfortunately, the name's sheer publicity might have a negative impact on its usage here.  However, a similar translational strategy to "Truesilver" might be in order for that as well, since...well, let's face it, Sephiroth is unbelievably hardcore and awesome and a whole bunch of other words.  Actually, he's basically a Magus clone...which makes perfect sense, doesn't it?  Someone got an obscure translation of One-Winged Angel they'd care to share?  My lone suggestion is Apotheosis, meaning "ascension to godhood"; it's what Sephiroth was trying to achieve by smashing a GIANT FRIGGIN ROCK into the planet.  Magus, on the other hand, is trying to ascend past his old nature of anger and mistrust in a world of both natural and supernatural forces arrayed against him.

My area of major "wall of creativity" is Robo.  Most of his character growth was depicted in CT; perhaps he deserves extra dialogue in a few scenarios to reflect his thoughts.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 19, 2005, 10:08:40 pm
...Or maybe we should kill him too and make Atropos playable, LOL... =P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 19, 2005, 10:21:14 pm
He's got to survive at least long enough to be turned into the Prometheus circuit; Cross states that it was hidden since the old Mother Brain generation.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 20, 2005, 12:08:09 am
Quote from: Hadriel
Someone got an obscure translation of One-Winged Angel they'd care to share?  My lone suggestion is Apotheosis, meaning "ascension to godhood"; it's what Sephiroth was trying to achieve by smashing a GIANT FRIGGIN ROCK into the planet.


Hmmm... One-Winged Angel would be, and pardon my inability to decline these things (so the endings to the words are badly butchered), Oiopteros-Angelos in Greek. A little too long and cumbersome sounding. Oh, by the way, according to Perseus - and also Liddel and Scott - Apotheosis is actually 'to deify'.

So what is the list of weapon ideas so far?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 20, 2005, 12:22:24 am
The only things set in stone are Crono's final two weapons, Arco Iris and Ara Dei.  For Lucca's weapons, it's a consensus that at least a couple of her weapons have to be down with the tech, but her last is made out of Rainbow Shell to allow a much more powerful blast without damaging the gun.  For Marle, you provided a whole long list of weapon names that, even minus one or two, ought to cover her completely.  Fay Arrow works for a bow name.  Glenn has only two definite weapons, the Masamune and the upgraded Masamune.  Robo has absolutely no definite weapons right now; if you'll recall from much, much earlier, I came up with an idea that allows him to use ranged weapons as his default instead of as Techs.  The ranged weapons would allow for a much greater variety in Robo's gameplay, but he does comparatively little in the storyline, so that might not ever get implemented.  Magus has a few weapons now: Thanatos, Erebos, Astaroth, and the others that I forgot about.  Schala has nothing on her right now, save a Dreamstone dagger that needs a shorter name.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 20, 2005, 12:36:46 am
Holy crap! I just had an awesome idea stemming from this, and thusly I shall hijack for just a brief moment, feel free to ignore me again.

The Murasame could be in Chrono world as a kind of anti-Masamune! Perhaps forged by Lavos as a counter-agent w/the beings Mura & Same in it! Awesome! I think I've got more fanfic material on my hands!

Also, am I the only one who thought it would be just plain asskickingly cool to give Magus two sickles like I've done in my current fanfic? Huh? HUH? Think about the sheer awesomeness of that one...Let it really sink in.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 20, 2005, 12:41:25 am
Quote from: V_Translanka
Holy crap! I just had an awesome idea stemming from this, and thusly I shall hijack for just a brief moment, feel free to ignore me again.

The Murasame could be in Chrono world as a kind of anti-Masamune! Perhaps forged by Lavos as a counter-agent w/the beings Mura & Same in it! Awesome! I think I've got more fanfic material on my hands!

Also, am I the only one who thought it would be just plain asskickingly cool to give Magus two sickles like I've done in my current fanfic? Huh? HUH? Think about the sheer awesomeness of that one...Let it really sink in.


Or, maybe, scythe in one hand as a weapon, sickle in the other as a deflector, as I do in mine?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 20, 2005, 12:50:05 am
What? Really? Can you properly wield a scythe w/one hand? Seems too...uh...unwieldy...heh...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 20, 2005, 12:57:58 am
Quote from: V_Translanka
What? Really? Can you properly wield a scythe w/one hand? Seems too...uh...unwieldy...heh...


Then Janus flung down his shield, and drew his sickle. And men fled from the twofold fear of his sickle and scythe, which he wielded one in each hand. A grim image of death incarnate, but perhaps even more terrifying for he was no myth to freeze the heart on dark nights, but a manifest terror that walked abroad in the daylight; a sorcerer prince of old the likes of which the world had long since forgotten, he came with all the might of the ancient world out of times past. And men ran from his onslaught rather than face him, crying that the King of Death had been set loose upon them, or that the power of Zeal was reborn. Few there were that would openly essay to match arms with him, and those that did were for the most part worthy magicians in their own right. But what power of latter days can compare to that which was Zeal the Magnificent?

Alright, I thought it sounded good, at the time.
If you can use a scythe and shield, then I should think a scythe and sickle should be no problem. He's monsterously strong, anyway.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 20, 2005, 01:47:12 am
I could see a scythe & shield though, but the shield would be one of those small ones that you could just, like, attach to your forearm or something...Think along the lines of Marcy's shield for instance. Because I always think of a scythe as a two-hander, like a spear or bo-staff only with a wicked, curved blade...But yeah, you can always say he's uber-strong...or that tried & true...IT'S MAGIC, THAT'S HOW!!!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DarkGizmo on July 20, 2005, 02:15:20 am
Well I think scythe may have one-handed and two-handed version, much like sword they would be different is weight, height and technique, but Magus use a two-handed one...

http://www.chronotrigger.info/pics/ctpics/sprites/magussprites.png

has you can see there (if you open it with paint and zoom in  :roll: )
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 20, 2005, 03:24:21 am
1. If you swung the sythe from right  to left, the pole of the sythe would hit the shield, unless stratigically moved or dropped.
2. Was that a fanfic? >.>
3. Magus doesn't seem the kind of person who'd use a shield.
4. Magus doesn't seem the type of person who would use two sythes. You can't hit an opponent properly with two sythes. It's like a two handed sword, a sythe. For it's blow to be strong, not only does it need to have a sharp edge but it also needs a weight so it counter balances.
5. Magus wouldn't use a noob sickle. Sickles are small and used for cutting grass and staff. Sickles would make him look..... noobish... No offence lol. No need to ruin his bad ass reputation.
Oh, and If Magus had two sickles/sythes, magic casting would be a pain in the ass. It's easy to hold a sythe in one hadn and use the other hand for the encantation. With two, its not.

BTW, About the research centre in Calasprean (sp?), can you make it not so technological. Kajar and if there were other cities, were based on and only on the reasearch of Magic. I mean, It's okay to have a bit of technology in this new research, centre, but if you over do it, you're just making a new Chronopolis or 2400AD factory. And I think we've had enough of the future >><
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 20, 2005, 06:12:53 am
Quote from: Zaperking
Magus doesn't seem the type of person who would use two sythes.


I'm fairly sure no one said anything about two scythes.

Quote from: Zaperking
Magus wouldn't use a noob sickle. Sickles are small and used for cutting grass and staff. Sickles would make him look..... noobish... No offence lol. No need to ruin his bad ass reputation.


I argue this point on so many levels...Where do I begin...Both scythes and sickles were tools before they were weapons. And sickles are just as bad ass, if not moreso, than a scythe. Case in point: Neo in The Matrix: Reloaded.

Quote from: Zaperking
Oh, and If Magus had two sickles/sythes, magic casting would be a pain in the ass. It's easy to hold a sythe in one hadn and use the other hand for the encantation. With two, its not.


Again...many levels here...For one, sheaths; just because you HAVE two weapons doesn't mean you have to have them ON HAND at all times. For another, since when do you need an open hand to cast magic??? As far as I know, as long as your mouth is free, you can cast and even whether or not you ACTUALLY have to say anything is debatable. And, like I said before, no one's argueing two scythes...that's just madness.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 20, 2005, 06:34:30 am
1. We always see the characters waving their hands and their mouths moving when they cast a spell. Pay more attention to the characters :P
2. I know that Sickles and Scythes were used as tools first, but I've played alot of Harvest Moon and yeah... Sickles seem newbies and should only be on the farm :P Besides them being small, while a Scythe acctually is like on a long pole arm.
3. I braught up the 2 Scythe point because someone said something about it :P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 20, 2005, 09:41:22 am
Quote from: Zaperking
We always see the characters waving their hands and their mouths moving when they cast a spell. Pay more attention to the characters


I stand by...

Quote from: Your Ruler And The Most Awesome Always Right Individual In The Whole World
since when do you need an open hand to cast magic???


And, hm, you argue for a scythe over sickles based solely on size and a (negative?) Harvest Moon reference, eh? What are you? A FFVII/Clod fan or something?

Buster Sword<Short Sword & Katana, buddy

:P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 20, 2005, 01:30:03 pm
Quote from: Zaperking
1. If you swung the sythe from right  to left, the pole of the sythe would hit the shield, unless stratigically moved or dropped.


Or unless it was a phalanx style shield, which has a hole one either side so that a spear may fit through. That sort would also work.
Quote from: Zaperking

2. Was that a fanfic? >.>


Most certainly. That is truly not the style of anything officially Chrono Trigger. Actually, that's my style, which borrows a little from Tolkien. The way 'then he cast aside his shield and drew his sickle' is said comes from the Tolkien's Fifth Battle, wherein Hurin casts aside his shield and wields an axe two-handed.
Quote from: Zaperking

3. Magus doesn't seem the kind of person who'd use a shield.


Actually, to me, he seems like a master-warrior who'd be able to use just about any weapon, simply inborn by his being a prince of Zeal. I would think he would use whatever the situation calls for, and that includes sword, spears, and shields, and could use them all well. It just so happens that in Chrono Trigger he wished to display a figure of terror and death, and so bore a scythe. But I wager that he is no fool: in a full-scale field battle of some tens of thousands, and this is what that was from, it would be extremely ill-advised not to have a shield of any sort. He is battle-hardened and experienced, and would not be so foolish.
Quote from: Zaperking

4. Magus doesn't seem the type of person who would use two sythes. You can't hit an opponent properly with two sythes. It's like a two handed sword, a sythe. For it's blow to be strong, not only does it need to have a sharp edge but it also needs a weight so it counter balances.


Of course not. I don't think I ever even considered such a thing. True enough, though, a scythe, or at least a reaping scythe, must at needs be used with two hands. But it would be possible to make one for one hand, provided the person carrying it is sufficiently strong - even so, it is not a 'fighting' weapon, but more of an uncontrollable hacking weapon, used after the fashion of an axe or halberd.
Quote from: Zaperking

5. Magus wouldn't use a noob sickle. Sickles are small and used for cutting grass and staff. Sickles would make him look..... noobish... No offence lol. No need to ruin his bad ass reputation.


Is not his final weapon called DoomSickle? Sickles are hardly noobish. Kronos himself castrated Ouranos using a sickle. They are smaller, it is true, but they are to a scythe what a dagger or an arming sword are to a longsword. What this was meant to be was a scythe as an attacking weapon, with a sickle used to parry - and perhaps if needs come to it counter-attack.
Quote from: Zaperking

Oh, and If Magus had two sickles/sythes, magic casting would be a pain in the ass. It's easy to hold a sythe in one hadn and use the other hand for the encantation. With two, its not.


Not really, it quite depends on how magic is cast. For some it might require spells, or perhaps ceremony, but for other people, or perhaps for certain forms of inborn sorcery, it may well be something that someone may move with the mind. The hand-motioning is likely simple gestures that have nothing to do with the spell. After all, how many people speak whilst moving their hands? It is likely the same thing. You don't need a hand for magic. He could likely channel it through his scythe, or simple bring it to bear against his opponents from nothingness. Magic is not a rule-based thing, after all.
Quote from: Zaperking

1. We always see the characters waving their hands and their mouths moving when they cast a spell. Pay more attention to the characters  


Well, the hand-moving I addressed. And as for the moving of mouths, no. Do you see it for Luminaire? For Fire? It is only certain things like Schala before the Mammon Machine. That is a different sort of thing, summoning energy and the like - more ceremonial.
Quote from: Zaperking

2. I know that Sickles and Scythes were used as tools first, but I've played alot of Harvest Moon and yeah... Sickles seem newbies and should only be on the farm  Besides them being small, while a Scythe acctually is like on a long pole arm.


Have you ever seen Sleepy Hollow? The one guy fights the Headless Horseman (who is wielding a sword and axe) with two sickles: it certainly does not look noobish whatsoever. Moreover, there are likely several sorts of sickles. There are those such as the certain Zealots carried around the time of the Roman occupations of Judea: they were sharpened on the reverse edge so, going through the market, they could covertly disembowel those who dealt with the Romans. There are also sickle-like weapons, for example, in the Mummy (as silly as the movie is) which are quite large.
Quote from: Zaperking

3. I braught up the 2 Scythe point because someone said something about it


Well, I know I didn't say it.

Now, back to the topic at hand... should I compile a list of certain and potential weapon names?

Oh, by the way, yesterday I read through the entire CE Plot thread!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 20, 2005, 02:11:48 pm
Here are some weapon names I thought of. I'm sorry in advance if some are lame, but I thought I'd propose some anyway instead of just rambling about the posted ones.

Katanas:
Shamshir (a Middle-Eastern sword with a very curvated blade)

Bows:
Alkonost (a race of Russian bird/woman (like Harpy but more gentle))
Fail-not (Tristan's bow)

Broadswords:
Clarent (the magic sword that Arthur uses for knighting, Excalibur being the one he uses in battle)
Galatine (Gawain's sword)

Arms:
Strainer ("Titan" translated in English)

Scythes:
Charybdis (Greek monster)
Vanitas (paintings which symbolise mortality and the passing of time)
Psychopomp (title for the ones who guide the dead to the underworld)
Totentanz ("dance of death" in German, it fits with the name of Magus' track)
Shinigami (generic name for Japanese death gods)
Grigori (or Watchers, the name of the fallen angels who taught culture to humans)
Murmur (a Christian demon, could be a pun also)
Legion (another Christian demon, who refers to himself as "we" instead of "I")
Vinsaule (the Latvian underworld)

...and Kronian Scythe is so neat... How about naming it just Kronian?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 20, 2005, 03:20:06 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
Here are some weapon names I thought of. I'm sorry in advance if some are lame, but I thought I'd propose some anyway instead of just rambling about the posted ones.

Katanas:
Shamshir (a Middle-Eastern sword with a very curvated blade)


Actually, from India. But good idea, nonetheless. I have seen it in Dark Cloud 2, though, come to think of it.

Quote from: Chrono'99

Bows:
Alkonost (a race of Russian bird/woman (like Harpy but more gentle))
Fail-not (Tristan's bow)


Both of those I like...

Quote from: Chrono'99

Broadswords:
Clarent (the magic sword that Arthur uses for knighting, Excalibur being the one he uses in battle)
Galatine (Gawain's sword)


Alright, I don't know either of those, so they probably are relatively obscure. I still hold to what I said about staying away from the names of actual legendary swords, but these and Caliburn are obscure enough that they might perhaps work.

Quote from: Chrono'99

Arms:
Strainer ("Titan" translated in English)


Hey, very good one! This one we have to keep. (They were named 'Titans', or 'Strecher/Strainers' by their father Ouranos, for they usurped him and thereby overstreched their power.)

Quote from: Chrono'99

Scythes:
Charybdis (Greek monster)
Vanitas (paintings which symbolise mortality and the passing of time)
Psychopomp (title for the ones who guide the dead to the underworld)
Totentanz ("dance of death" in German, it fits with the name of Magus' track)
Shinigami (generic name for Japanese death gods)
Grigori (or Watchers, the name of the fallen angels who taught culture to humans)
Murmur (a Christian demon, could be a pun also)
Legion (another Christian demon, who refers to himself as "we" instead of "I")
Vinsaule (the Latvian underworld)

...and Kronian Scythe is so neat... How about naming it just Kronian?


About your ideas... you are exceptionally good at nameing this. Personally, I like all of them except for Psychopomp (don't you hate those English letters, though? How do you get Psychopomp out of Ψυχοπομπ (or something similar). It seemed to become a convention to write the υ as a y, when really it is far nearer u. And this is just a guess, but I think that ψυχος is actually 'breath', the figurative way of speaking about the spirit. But I could be wrong.) Anyway, though, I like all of the others, and kudos (odd one there: κυδος is actually battle-glory, so perhaps a little misused...) for the simple solution for Kronian.

If I still have time in my lunch break after eating, I'll try and compile a list of the possible names. It will make it easier for ZeaLitY and Hadriel to decided upon it. Hmmm... I'll probably make a new thread for it, though.

And this is just a thought, but are you going to make a manual or guide to go along with CE? You could then have artwork for each of the weapons with a short description! It wouldn't be too hard, likely, to make it look like something scanned in...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 20, 2005, 07:25:00 pm
@C99: A shamshir is a completely different type of sword from a katana.  Charybdis is overdone.  And Psychopomp would be more suited for a silly character such as Cait Sith; Chrono doesn't have intentionally silly characters, except for maybe Spekkio, and even he's an incredibly skilled fighter.  But everything else rocks hardcore.

@V_T: Heck, the Murasame might not be a bad idea to include, just for the heck of it.  But it wouldn't figure into the storyline; the Masamune already has a counterpart in the Einlanzer.

Also, Cloud rulez ROFL  :p

@Zaperking: Kajar was not based solely on the research of magic.  If it was, the Blackbird would not have been created.  Hell, the damn thing was parked at a dock right outside the city.  For our standards, Zeal did have uber-technology, but much of it will be based on magic.  If you're worried about seeing the Death Star interior all over again, that isn't going to happen.  I promise you that much.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 20, 2005, 07:46:14 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
@C99: A shamshir is a completely different type of sword from a katana.  Charybdis is overdone.  And Psychopomp would be more suited for a silly character such as Cait Sith; Chrono doesn't have intentionally silly characters, except for maybe Spekkio, and even he's an incredibly skilled fighter.  But everything else rocks hardcore.


In my weapons list thead I left out Psychopomp for that reason. Charybdis... well, I suppose this and the shamshir can be discussed on the weapons thread. I don't think Charybdis too bad, and as far as a Shamshir goes... well, Crono didn't always have a Katana, remember. One of his weapons is a called a 'sabre', which is more of a falchion-like sword.

Oh, by the way, what did you think of my idea for a manual/gameguide? I think it would be awesome to have drawings for these weapons like there were for the original game.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 20, 2005, 07:50:37 pm
If we can find an artist to do the concept art. Well, I forget that you do try your hand at drawing time to time.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 20, 2005, 08:04:35 pm
Well, I'm hella good at drawing weapons, but I'm doing a lot already (IMO, anyway.)  When school starts, I'll have to reduce the amount of work I do on this project anyway.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 21, 2005, 12:06:14 am
Wait, would the Einlanzer exist? When did the Dragonians make it?

Well, either way, it's the Dragonian counter to the Masamune...I don't see why there couldn't be others for some other reason...Or something...

And, also, on the point about sickles being awesome or not...another example of the sickle being cool would be the kusarigama. ENTER THE KILLING ZONE BABY!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 21, 2005, 03:22:06 am
Quote from: ZeaLitY
If we can find an artist to do the concept art. Well, I forget that you do try your hand at drawing time to time.


Well, I wasn't sure if I could do these aright or not. But after attempting eight of them... I think I can. At least, at the moment I can: those eight turned out very well, I think. I'll post them here when I can. They're as yet uncoloured, but I finished, let's see... Grigori, Totentanz, Vanitas, Kronian, Ivory Bow, Yew Bow, Kerubim/Cherubim, Arco Iris, and Ara Dei.

Keep in mind that I'm very un-fond of the extreme looks of weaponry, with skulls and jagged edges and disproportionate weights. I'm attempting to give them a semblance of realism, such as I can, yet keep them imaginary.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 21, 2005, 03:34:49 am
@Hadriel:

Thank God. Magic is what makes me love Zeal, as it is one of the best towns in any RPG. Yeah, I forgot about the black bird, but only because it isn't way advanced. Some Zealian quoted it being made by Magic by Belthasar, and when it moves, it looks like it's alive. Almost seems liek Melchior and Belthasar planned it together.

But it's good to know that It wont look like the Deathstar. lol.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 21, 2005, 03:44:33 am
Okay, here we have it:

ARCO IRIS

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/ArcoIris.jpg)

That was just a quick Photo effort. The colouring looks a tad simplistic, perhaps I'll take a look at the CT official art. But anyway, what do you think?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 21, 2005, 04:04:12 am
I think that kicks a whole lot of ass.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 21, 2005, 09:39:23 am
It looks great. You could put it w/the CT art and I wouldn't really notice much difference. And really, does the coloring need to be so advanced? It doesn't seem like CT ever was, so why not leave it a tad simplistic?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 21, 2005, 10:40:26 pm
Alright, then, I'll keep the colouring similar.

Oh, and more are on their way. Currently, I have four sickles, a scythe, three bows, two Crono swords, and two Glenn swords.

So... any intentions of making a manual or game-guide eventually?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 21, 2005, 10:52:11 pm
I'd say yes.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 22, 2005, 12:01:20 am
Here's the newest I coloured, which I drew to be the Cherubim/Kerubim bow (of which I probably singly prefer the latter spelling.)

CHERUBIM/KERUBIM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Kerubim.jpg)

IVORY BOW

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/IvoryBow2.jpg)

YEW BOW

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/YewBow.jpg)
Note: these all would look better with a black background, or as a gif with a transparent one. I'm just too lazy at the moment to do that.
Looking at it... the Kerubim looks like its made out of ivory, too, eh? Even a nicer ivory, sort of...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 22, 2005, 12:31:40 am
You guys are letting way too many secrets out of the bag too early, LOL...  This kind of bonus material really shouldn't surface until the hack (or at least the demo) is ready to fly...  Then let the fans just be blown away by how much we're doing...  That's my thought anyway...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 22, 2005, 12:54:26 am
Yeah, but these are basically just Compendium features right now...I mean, when it's released people will come from whereever and say, "damn, that hack kicks ass, and look at all this other crap for it over at the Compendium!"
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 22, 2005, 01:11:57 am
I have more now! (See what I mean by a black background or gif looking better?)

KRONIAN

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Kronianblack.jpg)

TOTENTANZ (Black Background)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Totentanzblack.jpg)

TOTENTANZ (gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Totentanz.gif)

And now...

ARA DEI

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/AraDeiBlack.jpg)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 22, 2005, 03:50:33 am
Add a little more gleam to Ara Dei and it'll be perfect.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: V_Translanka on July 22, 2005, 08:33:26 am
They look great, and yeah, the black backgrounds look best...so far anyways (it could be different depending, yeah?).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 22, 2005, 12:21:16 pm
This is quick, but here's a concept drawing of Sorin.  

(http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/3252/sorin0dr.png)

And here's one crappily tossed together in Paint to show his color scheme.  

(http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/4488/sorincolor2qz.png)

Comments?  

~.C.S.~
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 22, 2005, 01:29:00 pm
Quote from: Claado Shou
This is quick, but here's a concept drawing of Sorin.  



And here's one crappily tossed together in Paint to show his color scheme.  



Comments?  

~.C.S.~


You should use Photoshop.

Anyway, being serious now, it's not bad for the level of detail, I suppose (though I figure it's just a quick sketch, eh?) The sword is a little too heavy, too, come to think of it. But other than that it's good, though I can't rightly remember the character. Wait... he's the assassin, right? Then why is he in full armour? That's bloody heavy.

Oh, for the weapons I'm drawing: I still have the Grigori and one of the other sickles, as well as the scythe Erebos, pending to be coloured, as well as two swords for Glenn. I'll also draw a few more new ones.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 22, 2005, 02:39:53 pm
Sorin's style is more ninja-ish.  His weapon is a katar.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 22, 2005, 03:44:51 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Sorin's style is more ninja-ish.  His weapon is a katar.


Want me to draw a sketch? I'd just have to know what a katar is.

Never mind, I looked it up, and know what it is now. I'll see what I can draw for him, in addition to the weaponry.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 23, 2005, 01:51:44 am
Katar? Like Chakrams?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 23, 2005, 02:42:35 am
No, a katar is a weapon worn on the hand rather than thrown.  Imagine Wolverine's claws, and now take out the claws and put in a single blade instead.  Voila; you've got a katar.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on July 23, 2005, 06:17:15 am
Katars are also the weapons used by Kiros in FF8 (his 2 blades are mistranslated as "Katal") and a class of weapon in AD&D (also called "punching dagger").
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Lordchander on July 23, 2005, 06:27:38 am
Im guessing its called a punching dagger be cause you litterally punch with ur hand instead of slashing (beacuase a katar, being only a one-bladed claw wouldn't be that effective in combat). In fact, i have never ever heard of a katar before. Forgive me on this next bit beacuse i only just entered the thread, but did u make the katar up or not?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 23, 2005, 07:16:11 am
Quote from: Hadriel
No, a katar is a weapon worn on the hand rather than thrown.  Imagine Wolverine's claws, and now take out the claws and put in a single blade instead.  Voila; you've got a katar.

Yeah, That's what I was thinking off. Not all Chakrams are thrown Oo
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 23, 2005, 09:50:04 am
I got bored with reading the entire post (I got up to page 16 I think), so I'll post what I have to say now

However, after spending so much time reading replies I've forgotten what I had to say about the plot and stuff...

Anyway, is it possible to put all the plot into one post? I printed what was in that seperate post for plot, but that was before I realized there were various posts of plot here...

Is Glenn supposed to have new weapons besides the Masamune? Maybe instead of having him lose the Masamune to be replaced by new weapons Melchior could upgrade it somehow, maybe by infusing it with magic, or reinforcing the blade with new material or something (maybe you can obtain materials like in CC)

Also, I never really used Lucca except when you had to, so the topic of her weapons never crossed my mind. How come no one else (besides Porre at this point) in the world can wield a gun, yet they can manufacture them to sell to Lucca? I think it'd make more sense if she created her own guns, maybe with the same kind of material system...

Who is Atropos? Was he/she/it in CT and I just don't remember him/her/it?

Alright, on to what I remember of the questions I had concerning the plot:
How can Chronopolis be saved from alterations in time? I'm sorry to say, but that does sound like a novice fanfic thing that was made up for convenience more than anything else. If the altered past made Chronopolis built a mile away, and the one in the original timeline was immune to the past, would there suddenly be two chronopolises (I assume '-polis' is Greek so what's the plural?)?

How would Belthasar recognize Crono and co.? The only way he'd remember them is if he were the guru that they had to save on top of that mountain... and I don't remember if he was... He's not the same Belthasar that put his memory into the Nu and granted Crono and co. the Epoch

Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)

How is Belthasar able to communicate with the crew? Walkie-talkie that can send radio waves (are those what they use?) into the past? Yeah, right. I think it'd only make sense if he uses the Temporal Catch thing to take them into the future, talk to them, then send them back. Or, he could just go back and forth in time whenever he needs to talk to them.. However, whenever Belthasar talks with the crew I find it overly simplified. I'll find and post an example later, but it seems as if Belthasar talks and acts like he exists in the same time as Crono and co, but he doesn't. If King Zeal was erased from history, Belthasar should have no idea who he is. Also, he should be able to talk about stuff like "If I hadn't interfered with the past, you'd go here, but you'll walk into a trap if you do" or w/e...


I think that's all I have to say for now...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shinrin on July 23, 2005, 10:15:45 am
Quote from: Chrono'99
Katars are also the weapons used by Kiros in FF8 (his 2 blades are mistranslated as "Katal") and a class of weapon in AD&D (also called "punching dagger").


Katars are used by the Assassin Class on Ragnrok Online as well. making them take two hits per slash.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 23, 2005, 10:46:14 am
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
I got bored with reading the entire post (I got up to page 16 I think), so I'll post what I have to say now

However, after spending so much time reading replies I've forgotten what I had to say about the plot and stuff...

Anyway, is it possible to put all the plot into one post? I printed what was in that seperate post for plot, but that was before I realized there were various posts of plot here...

Is Glenn supposed to have new weapons besides the Masamune? Maybe instead of having him lose the Masamune to be replaced by new weapons Melchior could upgrade it somehow, maybe by infusing it with magic, or reinforcing the blade with new material or something (maybe you can obtain materials like in CC)

Also, I never really used Lucca except when you had to, so the topic of her weapons never crossed my mind. How come no one else (besides Porre at this point) in the world can wield a gun, yet they can manufacture them to sell to Lucca? I think it'd make more sense if she created her own guns, maybe with the same kind of material system...

Who is Atropos? Was he/she/it in CT and I just don't remember him/her/it?

Alright, on to what I remember of the questions I had concerning the plot:
How can Chronopolis be saved from alterations in time? I'm sorry to say, but that does sound like a novice fanfic thing that was made up for convenience more than anything else. If the altered past made Chronopolis built a mile away, and the one in the original timeline was immune to the past, would there suddenly be two chronopolises (I assume '-polis' is Greek so what's the plural?)?

How would Belthasar recognize Crono and co.? The only way he'd remember them is if he were the guru that they had to save on top of that mountain... and I don't remember if he was... He's not the same Belthasar that put his memory into the Nu and granted Crono and co. the Epoch

Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)

How is Belthasar able to communicate with the crew? Walkie-talkie that can send radio waves (are those what they use?) into the past? Yeah, right. I think it'd only make sense if he uses the Temporal Catch thing to take them into the future, talk to them, then send them back. Or, he could just go back and forth in time whenever he needs to talk to them.. However, whenever Belthasar talks with the crew I find it overly simplified. I'll find and post an example later, but it seems as if Belthasar talks and acts like he exists in the same time as Crono and co, but he doesn't. If King Zeal was erased from history, Belthasar should have no idea who he is. Also, he should be able to talk about stuff like "If I hadn't interfered with the past, you'd go here, but you'll walk into a trap if you do" or w/e...


I think that's all I have to say for now...


1) Other enemies in CE can and do use firearms.  Porre just has more of them.  A LOT more.  The Lucca weapon creation system sounds pretty cool, but I'm not sure whether or not we can implement that.  But rest assured that you won't be finding random guns in 65MBC.

2) Atropos is Robo's honey robo-bunny.  She was in CT; she was killed in the Lavos timeline, but resurrected when he was defeated.

3) Chronopolis can be saved from alterations in time by the same mechanism Lavos used; creating a Pocket Dimension.  For the majority of the game, that's where Chronopolis is.

4) Belthasar obviously recognizes the original team in Chrono Cross; one would assume that due to his equipment he eventually found out that Lavos had been destroyed.  Other than that, we can perhaps incorporate an odd meeting of sorts into the first dialogue exchange between them.  In fact, that would make it more reasonable, and cooler to boot.

5) If the royal kinsmen aren't enough, the team's highly advanced weaponry lends credence to their tale; they do have concrete evidence that they have been to other times.  They obtained the Masamune, for one thing, and they have a robot with GIANT FREAKING LASER GUNS walking around as a second.  Serge is probably less credible than the original team, in fact.  The only things he has going for him are the fact that the Dragoons are on his tail for seemingly no reason and that he died 10 years ago in the other dimension.  However, some people will in fact frown upon the tales of time travel, only lending respect to the team because they can fight extremely well.

6) The comlink opens a contained Gate and sends transmissions through it.  So essentially, yes.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 23, 2005, 11:30:14 am
Quote from: Hadriel
5) If the royal kinsmen aren't enough, the team's highly advanced weaponry lends credence to their tale; they do have concrete evidence that they have been to other times.  They obtained the Masamune, for one thing, and they have a robot with GIANT FREAKING LASER GUNS walking around as a second.  Serge is probably less credible than the original team, in fact.  The only things he has going for him are the fact that the Dragoons are on his tail for seemingly no reason and that he died 10 years ago in the other dimension.  However, some people will in fact frown upon the tales of time travel, only lending respect to the team because they can fight extremely well.


Lucca could build a teleportation machine; I doubt lasers wouldn't be too hard for her

I'll look at the plot stuff that I printed out earlier tonight or tomorrow to find examples of what I was saying where Belthasar shouldn't be acting like he's in their time

Also, how exactly do pocket dimensions work? Is it a completely empty dimension except for one thing (Chronopolis or Lavos)? They have to have a timeline on thier own, so whenever Crono and co. come back to Chronopolis do they always come back directly after they leave (from the Chronopolean view)? If they don't, I don't see how you'd be able to determine when they do come back... Maybe I'm not making any sense, so I guess later I'll try to explain what I mean more thoroughly


PS: I doubt lasers would be too hard for her
stupid double-negative
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 23, 2005, 01:00:06 pm
From the Chronopolean point of view, yes, they would come back as soon as they left.  Belthasar isn't in their time; that's why they have the little uber time phones.

Lasers might not be too hard for Lucca, but a fully sentient robot would be.  If you'll recall, Lucca's thesis on artificial intelligence was written after the defeat of Lavos.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 23, 2005, 02:16:44 pm
Not to mention that if you go to Lucca's house immediately after returning from 600 AD in the beginning, but before taking Marle to the castle and going on trial, you'll find Lucca puzzling over how to build a "bipedal humanoid robot."  She's completely stumped.

Also, about pocket dimensions: They exist outside of time and are unaffected by it, but instead they use something called "time-error," or "time-offset."  (BTW, the End Of Time is a pocket dimension too.)

No, actually, from the Chronopolean's view, Crono and co wouldn't come back as soon as they left because of time-error.  If I'm at the End Of Time, in its pocket dimension and hop through a Gate to 600 AD, and stay in 600 AD for 5 minutes and then go back through the Gate, from Gaspar's point of view at the End Of Time, I would be gone for 5 minutes.  Even if time doesn't flow at the EoT, time-error does.  Lavos' pocket dimension works the same way too.  It's unaffected by time, but time-error DOES flow there.   So if I kill Lavos' shell in 1000 AD and then hop back to 600 AD, even though I'm going back in time, time-error hasn't changed, so in 600 AD the shell is still dead.

Does that make sense? =P  LOL...

Also about the point on proving that their stories were true...  They have a time machine!  And as I recall it's supposed to be enshrined beneath the Manoria Cathedral in Crimson Echoes, so the proof is quite solid.

About Belthasar: No, he is not hte one they had to save on the Mountain of Woe.  Yes, he IS the one who built the time machine.  In the Lavos timeline, he arrived in a ruined future.  But when Crono and co destroyed Lavos, it caused Belthasar to arrive in a perfect future.  Looking through historical records, he found records of Crono and co's deeds and thus knew that they destroyed Lavos.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 23, 2005, 10:13:25 pm
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
I got bored with reading the entire post (I got up to page 16 I think), so I'll post what I have to say now

However, after spending so much time reading replies I've forgotten what I had to say about the plot and stuff...

Anyway, is it possible to put all the plot into one post? I printed what was in that seperate post for plot, but that was before I realized there were various posts of plot here...

Is Glenn supposed to have new weapons besides the Masamune? Maybe instead of having him lose the Masamune to be replaced by new weapons Melchior could upgrade it somehow, maybe by infusing it with magic, or reinforcing the blade with new material or something (maybe you can obtain materials like in CC)

Also, I never really used Lucca except when you had to, so the topic of her weapons never crossed my mind. How come no one else (besides Porre at this point) in the world can wield a gun, yet they can manufacture them to sell to Lucca? I think it'd make more sense if she created her own guns, maybe with the same kind of material system...

Who is Atropos? Was he/she/it in CT and I just don't remember him/her/it?

Alright, on to what I remember of the questions I had concerning the plot:
How can Chronopolis be saved from alterations in time? I'm sorry to say, but that does sound like a novice fanfic thing that was made up for convenience more than anything else. If the altered past made Chronopolis built a mile away, and the one in the original timeline was immune to the past, would there suddenly be two chronopolises (I assume '-polis' is Greek so what's the plural?)?

How would Belthasar recognize Crono and co.? The only way he'd remember them is if he were the guru that they had to save on top of that mountain... and I don't remember if he was... He's not the same Belthasar that put his memory into the Nu and granted Crono and co. the Epoch

Why would everyone congratulate Crono and co. as heroes? I know that King Gaurdia welcomes them back at the end of CT as heroes, but he has to believe his own daughter, and he had the power to make a large celebration, but do you think everyone would suddenly believe that a group of teenagers saved the world when they have no proof? That'd be like if I told everyone here that I'd gone into the future and saved the world. I think that, rather than being praised as heroes, the crew should be marked as insane. Glenn had a high position in charge of the knights, or w/e, but I think his tales of time-traveling should be frowned upon (like everyone thinks he's talking about a dream when he talks about it, so they just ignore him when he does, and they pretend he's fine)

How is Belthasar able to communicate with the crew? Walkie-talkie that can send radio waves (are those what they use?) into the past? Yeah, right. I think it'd only make sense if he uses the Temporal Catch thing to take them into the future, talk to them, then send them back. Or, he could just go back and forth in time whenever he needs to talk to them.. However, whenever Belthasar talks with the crew I find it overly simplified. I'll find and post an example later, but it seems as if Belthasar talks and acts like he exists in the same time as Crono and co, but he doesn't. If King Zeal was erased from history, Belthasar should have no idea who he is. Also, he should be able to talk about stuff like "If I hadn't interfered with the past, you'd go here, but you'll walk into a trap if you do" or w/e...


I think that's all I have to say for now...


1) Atrapos is Robo's hunny that we had to kill because Mother Brain controlled her if you wanted to get Robo's best weapon.

2) King Guardia knows because Lucca in the true ending got Doan, Kino King Guardia from 600AD to come and then King Guardia realised etc. etc.

Now for my own questions:

Is Chronopolis powered by the Frozen Flame? It can't really sustain a pocket dimension without that much power.
Do they know what the FF really is? Does Lavos control Chronopolis in a way? You do know that if it does, the same time crash thing should happen again.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 23, 2005, 10:19:57 pm
My first inclination is to say that no, Chronopolis is not powered by the Frozen Flame, but to even say that I need to ask a question too...  Where did the FF come from?  I mean, I know what it is and I know it "came from" Lavos, but how did it get separated from him and stuck on that tower or whatever?  Is it even feasible that the Chronopoleans could possess the FF?

Also, I think Sun Stone energy would probably be powerful enough to sustain Chronopolis' pocket dimension.  Although Lavos' energy is much stronger, certain quotes from Zealians imply that Zeal was in the sky even before Lavos' power was discovered.  They mention their Sun Keep power source that has been lying dormant since Lavos' energy was discovered, etc.  A Sun Stone (or perhaps multiple Sun Stones) may very well be able to power Chronopolis.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 23, 2005, 10:30:58 pm
Well, solar power holds most of the ecosystem on this planet together.  A Sun Stone is essentially a solar cell on steroids.  Geothermal energy was likely a large component of ancient Zeal.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 23, 2005, 10:39:25 pm
So you're verifying that Sun Stones could support Chronopolis?

Also, that post right there could tell us a lot about how the city of Calasperan should look, if we delve into that a bit more...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 23, 2005, 11:00:31 pm
That depends on how exactly a Sun Stone works.  There was a thread on it a while back, before I got here.

Essentially, they were trying to determine whether the Sun Stone's power was solely drawn from solar energy or whether geothermal power also played a role.  Solar energy alone cannot provide enough power to do the kinds of things that Chronopolis does; besides, we already made up a reactor core sequence.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 23, 2005, 11:30:38 pm
Alright...ninja Sorin.  This was actually based off the original sprite that I had made for ZeaLitY several months ago, but forgot about until looking through my files.  Here yar.

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6393/sorin0018or.png)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 23, 2005, 11:34:36 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
That depends on how exactly a Sun Stone works.  There was a thread on it a while back, before I got here.

Essentially, they were trying to determine whether the Sun Stone's power was solely drawn from solar energy or whether geothermal power also played a role.  Solar energy alone cannot provide enough power to do the kinds of things that Chronopolis does; besides, we already made up a reactor core sequence.


A reactor core?  As in, the kind of nuclear reactors we use today?  Because I'm studying that stuff in school right now.  No kidding.  In less than a year I'm going to be on a submarine operating a Naval nuclear reactor.

And please, don't say that the reactor goes critical.  "Critical" is the ideal condition of the reactor, and they screw it up all the time because it sounds bad.

~.C.S.~
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 24, 2005, 12:28:09 am
I'm too lazy to quote anyone, so meh

Can someone please explain time-error/offset?
I don't see how time 'can't flow' in pocket dimensions; it's not like there's one frozen point in time in a pocket dimension... stuff still happens in pocket dimensions, even in Lavos' since it has to have time to open a gate

I forget how CT addresses Robo's emotions, but I think it should be at least mentioned.. My opinion to why he can have emotions is that he was programmed to learn from mistakes and compile information, and by doing so emotions developed

Claado, are you drawings just sketches? They look a bit too comical, but I can't explain why... maybe it's the proportions, the lack of shadow/depth, or the feet
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 24, 2005, 12:45:14 am
Yeah, that's just my style of drawing I guess.  I dunno, I like the way it looks.  Not really amazing or anything, but it works.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 24, 2005, 12:55:57 am
OK, well let's say that you went to a pocket dimension such as the End Of Time, but with no time or time-error.  What would happen is that as your "characters" walk around the place, theoretically, you would see their image trailing in where they've been and where they're going, because they are in all of those locations at the same time, at one precise point in time.  Time-error essentially compensates for this, so that you can walk around in a pocket dimension...  Time-error is essentially another axis of time, if that makes any sense.  Just as the physical world has the X, Y, and Z axes, in the Chrono world, time has two axes: time, and time-error.

There are theories in the Chrono Trigger section on GameFAQs that go into what time-error is, but I'm at work so GameFAQs is blocked here.  Unfortunately I can't point you to anything that can explain it better than I.

Earlier I referenced Lavos' shell to demonstrate time-error.  I'll try and elaborate.  Lavos typically exists inside a pocket dimension that is unaffected by time...  This allows him the flexibility to essentially reach through time and make adjustments to the future before he "gets" there, sort of like a security system.  (The pocket dimension is thought to be the blue vortex surrounding him when you fight him.)

If the pocket dimension is unaffected by time, that means that Lavos may "exist" there at any one point in time without being there in another time.  Therefore, when he rises to the surface in 1999 AD and Crono and company step into his pocket dimension, they very well may be stepping back to 12000 BC because the pocket dimension is essentially similar to a Gate.  Lavos may not even exist in 1999...he is only sending a wormhole forward in time to project his image, and then he fires off his destruction rain, which hence travels through the wormhole and out into the world in 1999.

This considered, at any point when you see the pocket dimension, you really don't know what "time" you're in, because the pocket dimension is unaffected by time.  The only way Lavos and others can move, think, and generally do things that take time, is to use time-error or time-offset.  This allows for Crono to be holding his sword up at one moment, and then in Lavos' face at another ( :lol: ) without time ever being changed.

Consequently, if Lavos exists at only one point in true "time," then killing him at any time will erase him from all time that the pocket dimension could reach.

It is generally thought that Lavos had to disable his pocket dimension briefly just after attacking the Ocean Palace, and then re-enabled it almost immediately.  The pocket dimension can only extend from the moment it is created, and go forward in time, but not backward.  Hence, if he re-enables the pocket dimension after the Ocean Palace disaster and Crono & co kill him, they erase him from all time that the 2nd pocket dimension touched (which extends from the Ocean Palace Disaster and forward)...  This also means that if Lavos had chosen NOT to disable his pocket dimension after attacking the Ocean Palace, then when Crono & co kill him in 1999, he is erased from all time starting from the moment he touched the earth...  This not only averts the dark future, but also undoes the Ocean Palace disaster and causes it to have never happened...  And crazier still, it would also mean he never even existed in 12000 BC.  Therefore, Queen Zeal was never corrupted, and she remained a kind, gentle woman.  This is what I actually consider the true "ideal" timeline, but doing so requires killing Lavos at the Ocean Palace, when he is strongest (before the first pocket dimension is disabled).  That's basically what would happen if you do kill him then.  We can then surmise that the Zeal Kingdom probably floats for a long time afterward, if not forever, Queen Zeal dies a mortal, happily, and under the reign of Zeal, they probably focus their technology to find a way to end the Ice Age without Lavos' "assistance."

Did I just confuse you even more? :P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 24, 2005, 01:06:15 am
Ugh, I'm like half asleep now; I'll read your explanation tomorrow, so don't feel like I'm ignoring you or anything
Just two things I want to say for now:
1. OMFG THANK YOU SO EHI$HFN MUCH FOR SAYING "better than I"
2. I kind of don't agree that w/o time error the characters would exist everywhere, but rather there wouldn't be anything... It's hard to explain logic for, but I feel like asking the area of a line, the volume of a square, and the --- of a cube.. I can't think of what it'd be of a cube, but it's like a horizontal line, with no vertical aspect, or a square, with no third-dimensional-aspect, or a cube, with no fourth-dimensional-aspect, or time

I'll try to understand more and comment on the rest of your post tomorrow
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 24, 2005, 01:46:56 am
Quote from: Claado Shou
Quote from: Hadriel
That depends on how exactly a Sun Stone works.  There was a thread on it a while back, before I got here.

Essentially, they were trying to determine whether the Sun Stone's power was solely drawn from solar energy or whether geothermal power also played a role.  Solar energy alone cannot provide enough power to do the kinds of things that Chronopolis does; besides, we already made up a reactor core sequence.


A reactor core?  As in, the kind of nuclear reactors we use today?  Because I'm studying that stuff in school right now.  No kidding.  In less than a year I'm going to be on a submarine operating a Naval nuclear reactor.

And please, don't say that the reactor goes critical.  "Critical" is the ideal condition of the reactor, and they screw it up all the time because it sounds bad.

~.C.S.~


Not the kind of reactor we use today; most likely it's a matter/antimatter core.  The Epoch is known to be powered by an M/AM assembly, so it stands to reason that this technology also powers Chronopolis.

Are you at a military academy right now?  If so, you can help with keeping military sense and protocol intact in the parts of the plot that require it, such as Magus' dialogue in the first Vanguard scenario.  Also, if anyone's fairly well-versed in special forces tactics (note: "well-versed" is not equivalent to "obsessive Counter-Strike player") that expertise is needed for the assault on Truce.

I'm fairly good at strategizing in general, but I'm no warmaster, and I'm certainly not career military.  The only person I can readily contact in the military is my cousin in the Air Force, but he doesn't actually fly jets; he's a weatherman.  

Glenn and Janus' dialogue is especially important for that scenario; it has to bear more than a passing resemblance to actual military language and tactics, at least the ones of that time.  Glenn is career military, and Janus once led a genocidal war; that nets you a lot of experience.

Anyway, I really think it's time to work on the El Nido scenario.  I'll copy the rest of the existing plot into my copy of the Word version.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Claado Shou on July 24, 2005, 08:18:58 am
No, I'm not at an academy...I'm just studying to work on the systems we use with the reactor.  That's all.

Also, I can correct stupid mistakes with military dialogue, but anything tactics-related is beyond me.  Boot Camp wasn't about war, sorry.

~.C.S.~
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 24, 2005, 02:27:34 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Glenn and Janus' dialogue is especially important for that scenario; it has to bear more than a passing resemblance to actual military language and tactics, at least the ones of that time.  Glenn is career military, and Janus once led a genocidal war; that nets you a lot of experience.

Anyway, I really think it's time to work on the El Nido scenario.  I'll copy the rest of the existing plot into my copy of the Word version.


If it's Glenn speaking, make sure to use such words as 'van', 'salient', and 'sally', they're all older seeming words for things in battle - van is the front, salient is an area advanced past the others, I think, and sally is an attack or maybe counterattack. I'll have to look over Lord of the Rings and the Fall of Gondolin, though - Tolkien seems to have a very good sense of the older ideas of war. Personally, I'm not too bad at making battle-description seem old, though I'd be at a loss for more modern terms.

As far as tactics of middle-ages and prior combat go... usually they put the newer troops front-centre, with the older troops further back. The newer troops are more likely to panic and run, so to have them forced into battle with nowhere to go precludes this. Also, I think cavalry usually went on the flanks, and archers behind, though I cannot be fully sure. What sort of battle is this, exactly?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 24, 2005, 03:45:25 pm
The one at Dorino; it's urban warfare.  Glenn has only a relatively few units of Vanguard knights, who are basically supercommandoes, almost like Mandalorians or Spartan units (either the real ones or the Master Chief variety).  The Mystic armies have a large amount of insurgent units, who are essentially modern terrorists in terms of their tactics and mannerisms.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 24, 2005, 11:00:12 pm
OK, I fully developed all of the Breaking Point scenarios.  Here's a post of those:

------------

The Breaking Point

The Frozen Flame demonstrates its supreme asstardery by flinging the heroes off to different time periods.  There are three groups here.  One is composed of Magus, Schala, and Glenn, and they’ve been sent off to a high technological future on the brink of destruction, and are fated to make a grave choice.  Another contains Lucca, Marle, and Robo, who get to witness the founding of Guardia firsthand, only to find out that the history textbooks lied to them (OMFGLOL!)  Poor Crono is all by his lonesome, and he witnesses the most terrifying thing of all.  And when I say it’s the most terrifying thing of all, I mean that Goatse is positively wonderful compared to that shit.  Except that it's only partially revealed here, but you get the idea.

Crono Nightmare #1

Crono goes first in the breaking point sequence.  He’s ended up in a nightmarish temporal flux that’s even harder to navigate than the editing program, if that’s possible.  He finds himself in the midst of a Porre assault on Truce, much more vicious than the last one.  He sees an alternate version of himself being captured, and rushes after him, fighting VERY DIFFICULT battles.  At the end of the sequence, he finds a version of William Ishito as the Headsman.  Ishito says a bunch of stuff about how he brought this on his country, and how it’s his fault that all those people are going to die.  He comments that Crono is the reason he’s in the state he is, and then gives him the guillotine.  Temporal flux happens, and the scenario shifts to Marle, Lucca, and Robo.

The Founding of Guardia

The aforementioned three land on a frozen tundra, seemingly in the middle of nowhere.  Immediately, Marle begins expressing turmoil over Crono's fate; Lucca is disturbed as well, and reveals that she still sort of likes the guy.  Girl talk ensues, and the party starts wandering, hoping to find some hint of civilization. Eventually they spot a large mass, which turns out to be a primitive army bearing the brunt of the cold. Before they approach, they notice another army riding up the valley behind them; it is flying the Guardian flag, so they venture over there. The army is dumbfounded and nearly kills the travelers due to the weird robot with them (Robo), but Marle's pendant is the same as the leader - Cedric the Executor, later to become King Guardia I. Marle attempts to catch up, but the approaching army - the primitive tribe of Porre - is ready to fight, with spears armed. A massive battle takes place; as it did historically, it turns in Porre's favor, so Cedric the Executor books it out of there with Marle. Lucca and Robo can't rejoin the main forces; to save the wounded Lucca, Robo lets himself go. He is utterly vicious, protecting Lucca at any cost; he kills a lot of Porre warriors.

Back in an encampment and rudimentary shed, Marle converses with Cedric Guardia about the future. He notes that the divine forces were not on his side at the battle today, but that he shall "bring" them to the next encounter. Marle and the player learn that the angel in Manoria Cathedral is Cedric's mother, claimed to be of divine descent. At night, Robo drags Lucca in, and promptly collapses. Lucca is well-awake, and in a fit of rage; she blames herself for not being strong enough to fight on her own, and is starting to split down the middle between rational thought and her emotions; she feels helpless, and reflects that science did not fail her, but rather her implementation of it.  Robo and Lucca have a discussion about the events that just passed; they foist moral responsibility for human actions on humans, even when taking Lavos into account.  They’ve seen the face of the devil…or the face of God, depending on how you look at it.  Eventually, they fall asleep.  In the morning, Lucca and Robo rejoin the main Guardian force and Marle as they ride out to the final battle with Porre.  This time, however, Cedric is pulling no punches; Guardia is carrying an Ark of the Covenant type box with them.  A custom sprite that resembles illustrations of the actual Ark of the Covenant will be created for this purpose.  They've goaded the Porre army into approaching their position in huge numbers; a secret attack from the side routs the army quickly. They stumble onto an encampment; Cedric orders the killing of everyone, including the women and children. Marle cannot stand this slaughter; Robo points out that changing things now might have an adverse effect in time, and Lucca notes that this could all be a fake timeline fabricated by the Frozen Flame.  Cedric reiterates to them that this is war, and that “the Porre savages” need to be sent a message.  Robo disagrees with Cedric’s implementation of military tactics, but before they have time to argue about it, Porre attacks again with a surprise retaliation.  Guardia currently occupies an inferior position, because of Cedric’s bloodlust.  This time, the Porrean leader is there personally; his name is Antaeus. He wields an artifact called the RivenCrimse; Lucca and Marle both recall that this battle, recorded in ancient lore, is the founding of Guardia, but this situation is much different than had read about.  Porre appears to be far stronger than they were previously, and each side has some magic-users at its disposal; the loss of these is later revealed to be part of the reason for Porre's Black Wind program.  Lucca reasons that in the original timeline, Guardia was intended to be a prime source of Lavos’ DNA acquisitions, but Crono, Marle, and Lucca resisted his whims and through their efforts transformed Guardia into a peaceful country rather than a conquering empire as Lavos wished.  Porre is the next best thing, but it’s still a mystery how they suddenly managed to acquire a ton of magic users.  This will end up playing into both the El Nido scenario and Sorin’s backstory, but for now Antaeus taunts Cedric the Executor, remarking that with the RivenCrimse, he just finished slaying a pack of Dorino filth escorting a Guardian chieftain. This sends Cedric into an all-out fury, but rather than fight, he decides to use his secret weapon; the Frozen Flame!  Marle cries out, and a light floods the battlefield. Robo is alarmed, however; while rumors have always been passed down that Guardia used an artifact to establish its kingdom, some of the energy emanating from the Flame registers in his Chronometer as originating from far in the the future of the Flame itself. Robo then remarks that Antaeus isn't being phased out of existence as he should be by the Flame. The Porre leader then appears in front of the party.  Instead of dying, though, he is possessed by the Flame.  Time itself freezes and the Flame then begins to speak through him, saying that this timeline is indeed real, how much he loves and hates them in his own sadistic way, and using the following pre-battle trash talk:

"A thousand fires have sparked within my mind! I see everything! I know all! And I know this: you must perish!"

…Jesus Christ, that line is fucking awesome.  After that, the Flame pumps several fucktons of energy into Antaeus, and the crew has to fight a boss battle with him.  Before he dies, Antaeus makes a comment about the “legend of El Nido” and how it holds the key to the ultimate magic.  This naturally is used to further the plot.  When the time warp subsides, Cedric is confident that his use of the Frozen Flame has defeated Porre.  He then declares to his armies (in a very Palpatine-like fashion) that he will found Guardia and that they will have peace.  The team gets the RivenCrimse, Antaeus’ scythe, out of the fight; it’s a good weapon for Magus once they reunite.  They then duck into the forest, away from the Guardian armies.  Lucca reasons that if this timeline is a current one, Belthasar will have noticed the temporal disturbance caused by the Flame and detected them there, and will send a Gate to a temporal coordinate only slightly ahead of them.  A few seconds later, a Gate appears, and they dive into it and return to Chronopolis.  Once there, they talk with Belthasar about what happened during the original timeline; they theorize that the Flame’s history with Guardia might hold some clue about how to defeat it.  They also ask Belthasar to do some research into the legend of El Nido that Antaeus mentioned.  However, that will have to wait a bit longer…

Crono Nightmare #2

The player doesn’t actually play during this one.  Instead, he/she bears witness to Crono getting assaulted by various team members and NPCs saying angsty goth shit about how Crono is a dick.  Then it cuts to a much less lame sequence with Glenn, Janus, and Schala.

The Vanguard Apocalypse

Magus, Glenn, and Schala awaken to find themselves trapped in a maximum-security prison.  A guard promptly comes in and starts questioning Magus, kicking the living shit out of him.  He’s angered, but powerless to do anything; apparently, the guards have injected him with a powerful sedative that shuts down the neural pathways to the parts of the brain that allow him to use magic.  Glenn and Schala are also tortured for a while.  After the guards leave them alone, Glenn and Janus reflect on what an odd and generally sad pair of individuals they are.  They joke away their entire history, mentioning Cyrus, Zeal, and all the other things they’ve lost.  Glenn reflects that hate is built not on circumstance but on selfishness; when they went to see Cyrus and free his spirit with the Masamune, Cyrus was not infuriated with vengeance against Janus, but rather empowered with love for his friends.  Glenn says that perhaps Cyrus knew what the former Magus had lost. Glenn was selfish in his hate, which might have gotten in the way of defeating the greater enemy, Lavos.  Janus says the same thing; he didn’t care what he destroyed just so long as he got back at the demon.  They even reflect on Lavos’ selfishness; he was the ultimate manipulator, and possibly still is, but Janus is no longer able to treat Glenn or any of the others with contempt.  This is partially because he recognizes their valor in combat and extreme courage; they were all willing to give their lives for an ideal they believed in.  While the Magus generally scoffs at the notion of “high-minded ideals” as Anakin Solo put it, Janus reflects that his entire life thus far has been lived in service of a secret ideal; that of the family and love.  Though he respects Glenn, he makes it clear that he did not abandon the ways of war for him or any of the other team members, but for Schala alone.  Glenn, on the other hand, embraced the ways of death in memory of Cyrus.  Truly, the two are not all that different; they openly wonder whether, if their places had been switched, events would have played out the same as they did before.  It isn’t a question of individuality, they decide, but of the nature of sentient beings to be attached to people or things.  Schala reflects on her attachment to life itself; she feels that she was never meant to live again, that Lavos should have taken her in the Ocean Palace.  Janus cannot take this, and summons up enough strength to smash his hand into the camera’s glass lens.  Cutting himself in several places with its shards, he bleeds the sedative out of his body, and slowly feels the power of magic returning to him.  When a group of guards comes to investigate, Magus uses Black Hole on them.  Schala winces at the loss of life, but Glenn reminds her that sometimes there isn’t any choice.  They agree that they have to get back to Belthasar in Chronopolis, but first they have to figure out where they are.  Upon making it to a computer terminal and letting Janus access it, they learn that they’re in 2102 A.D.  A strained geopolitical situation is the norm in this era; several world powers have built up nuclear arsenals, and another Cold War is currently in progress.  There are no Mystics in this time; human imperialism killed them all off many centuries ago; the implication is that one of the holy wars in the Middle Ages did it.  Janus notes that they are only 200 years before Belthasar’s time, and that he said the world’s unified government was what allowed him to build Chronopolis, but the governments of this time are nowhere close to unified.  After this, a mysterious yet familiar enemy steps in.  He congratulates them on escaping, even though he expected them to be able to do it.  He then steps out of the shadows and reveals himself as Serran.  He came here using his miniature and much more archaic-looking version of the Epoch.  He relates that while the Masamune was in his hands, he was approached by a dark warrior, whom the player knows could only have been Sorin.  Sorin communicated the will of the Frozen Flame – the will of Lavos, who Serran sees as an Almighty God – through the Dreamstone of the Masamune.  Glenn remarks that this must be the origin of the strange visions he’s been having periodically of a city vanishing in time; Sorin imparted his dreams to the Masamune when he held it, and the echo of the Frozen Flame’s will lingers on it.  Serran then reveals two crucial secrets.  Number one is his mission; he’s going to start a global nuclear apocalypse.  The survivors will be forced to band together, just as “the Master” wishes.  Number two is the origin of this group; it’s the Vanguard.  Now a far cry from an order of noble knights, it is a secret paramilitary organization devoted to creating a new world order; the Central Regime.  According to their beliefs, it’s for the good of humankind in general.  Janus remarks that such a maneuver would provide Belthasar with the necessary resource base to create Chronopolis, so technically they’re right.  However, it’s disturbingly similar to how he justified the first few times he killed someone; the thought that humanity would be better off in the end for him having done so, because of the removed influence of Lavos.  In the end, both the path through and the item obtained from Serran at the end of the scenario is a consequence of what the player picked way back in Scenario 8.  One of the scenarios even has the party aiding Serran, because it allows Chronopolis to be constructed.

Option 1: All Your Base Are Blown The Fuck Up

This option will result in the party attempting to self-destruct the base they’re in so as to stop the nuclear war.  It’s the surest option they’ve got, but the base is under a populated zone and thousands of people will die in the process, and the chances of them making it out are slim to none, and slim just passed out from a heroin overdose.  If the player elects this option, they will overload the reactor core and then have 10 minutes to escape the base.  If they don’t get out before then, the last saved game reloads.  At the end of the path, they’ve got to fight Serran one last time, but he’s a pushover.  They use the parts of the Epoch Serran stole to take a hike back to Chronopolis.  A cutscene of a city blowing up then occurs, and the scenario moves on to Crono Nightmare #3.  Picking the ‘fight the Mystics’ option in Scenario 8 will make the scenario take this path, and for your trouble you’ll be granted Lucca’s second most powerful weapon early.

Option 2: Aid the Vanguard

This option has the party actually aiding Serran and the Vanguard in their atrocity.  Thus history is relatively unchanged.  The party fights Serran out of anger at his obvious immorality and what they’ve just done.  Choosing to fight Porre in Scenario 8 will result in this situation; Serran drops Marle’s second most powerful bow early.

Option 3: I Was Born Lazy

This option has the party giving up on the conundrum, and a nuclear war unfolds.  Thus history is relatively unchanged.  Just as in the previous option, the party is angry at Serran and fights him for vengeance.  Choosing to declare neutrality in Scenario 8 will result in this situation; Serran drops a Safe Helm.

Option 4: Stop the Missile

This scenario, as in its counterpart, is the most difficult, but it is also the most rewarding.  However, it’s no less tragic.  This time, the team waits until the missile launches, and then steals Serran’s stripped-down Epoch to go after it.  Once Serran figures out what happens, he’s hot on their tail with a fleet of Vanguard jets backing him up.  There’s no question that anyone in the vicinity when the missile explodes is going to die.  It would be easy enough to pick the missile off with the Epoch’s laser cannons, but it was designed primarily to be a time travel machine and not a superiority fighter.  Its targeting systems aren’t up to snuff with what’s necessary to hit the missile, so Glenn volunteers to take a swan dive past it with the Masamune.  This will almost certainly kill all of them, but it’s a chance he’s willing to take.  However, Janus isn’t; he knocks Glenn out and casts Dark Matter on the warhead, which explodes it as Schala uses all the Epoch’s power to open a Gate and escape, thus presumably killing the Vanguard.  Serran, however, follows them into the Gate, intent on doing one last battle with Glenn.  He’s much harder this time than in the others, but upon defeating him, a secret compartment within his version of the Epoch opens; it contains a massive hunk of Rainbow Shell!  It’s big enough to allow you to make all the characters’ penultimate weapons at this time.  The party arrives back at Chronopolis, and thankfully nothing’s changed; Melchior promises to get right to work on weaponry of the highest quality for the team.  Lucca, Marle, and Robo are also there, and they express relief that three more team members are back; Crono is now the only one missing.  All thoughts turn to him, but he’s pretty preoccupied…

Crono Nightmare #3

This is it, folks, the big daddy of all nightmares and the end of the breaking point sequence.  ZeaLitY wanted to use the ruined world again, and all of us who worked on the plot agreed, so here it is in full force.  Crono lands in a strange amalgam of a world; it contains varying types of terrain.  Ghosts roam everywhere, portals open and close seemingly at random, and strange alien creatures populate the world, including many Lavos Spawns.  In essence, it’s a combination of Metroid Prime’s Phazon crater, Chrono Cross’ Isle of the Damned, and the architecture present in Hell in the Diablo universe.  This world quite literally is a living hell, and it’s Crono’s task to find a way out of it and back to Chronopolis.  There are many signs all over the place, and creatures akin to even more perverted versions of the bioengineered monsters Dyasavah was researching in Calasperan.  The signs all lead to a large semi-gothic temple, where acolytes are going to present their work to a Dark Lord.  The temple, despite its architecture, is home to highly advanced technology; it’s protected by extremely powerful sentinels and has several spires sticking out of it that appear to be gathering energy from the air.  From one of the windows in the Cathedral, one can see a massive crater that is spouting huge masses of fire and lava high into the sky.  There are several of what appears to be wrecked starships near the crater.  Crono descends downward into the perverted temple, which is replete with demonic symbolism and arcane magicks – among them are spells that open portals into various limbo dimensions.  Crono tries to run for one of these, but some acolytes show up and restrain him.  They bring him down a very long series of steps and force him to kneel before their lord…

Guess who’s back?  Yup.

Crono expresses incredulity at seeing Lavos again, and he certainly never expected to see him in the exalted state that he’s in.  Crono asks Lavos whether this place is Hell; Lavos says that it is, but not in the way Crono envisions it.  However, this doesn’t stop Crono’s courage.  He steals one of the acolytes’ weapons, knocks them all out, and proceeds to do protracted battle against Lavos.  If he hasn’t gotten it already, he gains the Luminaire technique.  Once part of Lavos’ body has been disabled, he remarks that Crono thinks in incredibly physical terms and that Lavos is far more than just a body.  He says that this is true of all the life he watched over, but none of them ever realized it; if anyone, he expected the one responsible for destroying him to figure it out.  But as it stands, Lavos has an uncountable number of acolytes and creatures willing to be remade in his image for his glory, and an uncountable number that already have been.  Even Crono is now a part of Lavos, the Dark Lord says, but Crono has other plans.  He smashes the door with Luminaire and runs into a portal, which removes him from this false timeline and takes him back to Chronopolis.  Once back there, a frenzied Crono relates his experiences and then collapses into Marle’s arms.  He is given time to recover, and the team vows to defeat Lavos, in whatever form he takes.

-----

Just a note: Picking another option besides number four will not preclude you from obtaining the ultimate weapons; it will simply delay your acquisition of them.  El Nido has plenty of Rainbow Shell to go around, and the party will be going there shortly.

Next comes the battle with the ancient king in the Valle Crimse.  Earlier, we had Crono get the Geistrand from him; now I suppose we could make it some invaluable accessory instead, and have the Geistrand be obtained in Calasperan before the breaking point.  The idea for the Geistrand is essentially the same as the phaseblade I suggested earlier, except Geistrand sounds orders of magnitude cooler.  It's essentially the perfect compromise between myth and technology.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 24, 2005, 11:44:16 pm
WOW.  Just freaking WOW!

Dark Lord Lavos?  What would he look like?  Would we be seeing the humanoid Lavos-Core shape?  Or what?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 12:03:42 am
On Lavos' form in the Defiled World: I'd wanted to implement this idea a while ago, and this is a perfect place for it.  Remember the demon sculpture on the top of Magus' summoning altar in the original game?  Lavos' form here will basically amount to that brought to life.  It's a twisted form that reflects Lavos' sick desires; but again, that's only one of his many acolytes that is willing to host his soul.  But the fun doesn't end there.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 12:55:06 am
There's someone around here who is using (or WAS using) a sig of a REALLY awesome-looking "Dark Lavos" if he could possibly be any darker...  Know who I'm talking about?  I can't find it around here.  That's what I, for one, was picturing. :D  But your idea sounds awesome as well.  Can't wait to see it!

So Lavos has dialogue in this too?  Sweet...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 25, 2005, 03:33:06 am
Sounding good with the storyline, there. I have a point to make regarding the depiction of the nightmare, though.

The hall of Lavos, where he stands, and its supposed being hell (at least in the words of Lavos)... Hell, I suppose, can have a number of different connotations, either from the Norse realm of Helheim (ie. ruled by Hel, daughter of Loki) to the Christian hell, which is essentially an absolute nothingness away from God. I'm not certain where the whole thing of the place of vileness and gross evil came from... maybe Inferno? I don't know, just a guess, as I've never read it - all I know is the term Pandemoneum, 'all demons' comes from it, so perhaps that is the origin of it. But be it as it may, I have always found there being bloody altars and dark deciples, while gruesome and unsettling to the eyes to be far too simplistic, and not as deeply terrifying as hell should be. After all, there is still SOMETHING, and the devil and demons seem like a thing there, lending it substance. Far more terrifying would be a void, limitless and endless, like the cold nothingness of the Tesseract, with but the whispers of some nameless and boundless evil upon your heart, and knowing that NOTHING now will ever come for you, nor will your eyes ever touch anything anymore, nor will you ever taste or hear another sound, and that you will be in this expanse removed from all contact until your very spirit drowns in its own madness in eternity, and far dearest of all wishes will be that you had never been born. THAT is what I think most terrifying of hell would be. As such, maybe that once he comes to face Lavos, or rather, once he comes before the throne, he floats for some time in an absolute emptyness such as that - maybe after glancing into the deep-enthralling eyes of Lavos? - emprisioned by the cageless malice of that ancient gaze, until at last Lavos greets him at the brink of insanity. The evil of Lavos can then fill the void about Crono. Would this not be terrifying? Imagine floating in the coldest reaches of space, the terror of the wonder and glory of the expanse, and knowing that all about you, filling that entire limitless void that is grander than all the stars, is that which hates you beyond all else, to whom you are but a whisper of a dream of power.

Well, that all is just a thought on Lavos. It is just me, I suppose, but I've never been one for the acolytic and ritualistic depictions of hell. Too overt in my opinion, too human and understandable to be the true foe. Lavos being as mighty as he is, he has little need of servants serving him in a corporeal place (though maybe this is in Crono's mind, for it is a nightmare... it is difficult for me to reason through this.) You see, to me, the most dark of evil, the most base and vile of treacheries and terrors, is always disguised as something good. Evil in the guise of good, that is always the most horrid of all! If you arrive in a place where you see dark signs and things chanting evil, well, you know it! This place is dark and nasty, and you know you have a battle coming up. That is a semi-nightmare in my understanding, one that causes fear, but not terror. What causes truest terror is distortion and hidden melefic will, and finding this inescapable! Say not that Crono has come to hell, say rather heaven! This should be his query, and is this god? This should be his query, at which the reply is a most blasphemous yes, and those about are the company of angels and saints who minister before the throne day and night. This nearly catches Crono, for he is offered things of temptation and glory, and a place of honour as the saviour of the mortal world. But certain things in words, certain hints or foreboding, cause chill. Like when the eyes still see things as fair, but the heart feels itself decieved, knowing that there is terror one cannot place. You likely know the feeling in a dream, the surreal feel that things are not as they should be. The music could become off key ever so slightly to exemplify this. Little by little this anxiety and fear overcomes Crono, and being not fully content, knows this is not heaven. But running from the hall, he finds that each leads only back into the same hall (like Neo unable to escape the accursed trainstop), and so he stands before the throne, and askes who this is that so masquerades as god himself. At which this thing replies that he is he that wishes to be god before all men, and will in time hold all dominion, etc. And all at once the void of which I spoke engulfs Crono, and things go as I have before mentioned, till at last coming before him in form, Lavos speaks, and here GIVES Crono a weapon, for assured of his own might merely wishes to make trial of Crono's strength. Aha! And here is yet another great terror, for Lavos appears to be and is represented as a thing mighty beyond understanding, destroyer of worlds and stars, yea even universes and reality! He mocks Crono, striking him down, calling him a fool seeking vain glory, a man of pride who will soon fall. What is even a hero who traverses time to one who is beyond time? All his might, all his deeds, every thing he might accomplish is wind and doomed to fail and accomplish nothing! With a breath he can be killed for eternity!

See, all this may not be true, but Crono, as the hero that saved the world... this is his greatest fear. That his deeds accomplish nothing, that the world CANNOT be saved, and that he is absolutely powerless before it. That Lavos can never die, and that the world is forever doomed without salvation (well, personally, I hold that true for ours, save for a certain omnipotent action several thousand years ago, but that is beside the point.) This is Crono's gravest fear, and the Flame plays on it in this his most terrible of nightmares. It also carries on from before, where he could do nothing to halt the slaughter in the last nightmare. Now, he can do nothing to save the world, and he himself is but a vain man.

So you see, perhaps more terrible would be if this place seemed as paradise, like fake Calasparan all over again, only far less apparent, and with far more evil things waiting in the wings, so to speak.

Umm... oh dear. I got mightily carried away, it seems. My apologies. Anyway, that is my take on what would make the nightmare the most terrifying it could be. As yet I have yet to help on the plot, so this marks at least one suggestion to account for my being placed in the plot help category. Anyway, what do you think? I don't suppose a paradise and a nothingness would be THAT hard to map, would it?



About the depiction of Lavos...

Sig? I don't remember anyone with a sig depicting Lavos in that fashion, but maybe my memory fails me. Actually, if truth be told, it would be odd, because the whole 'Lavos the Dark Lord' thing was a thread of Hadriel's over at the Chronicles forums, which itself sprung in part from my incessant talking about Lavos in such away, in despite of everyone calling him a mindless parasite (itself born from my representation of him being a dark Lord in Twilight of Fate, capable of being fought and vanquished with swords - yet mightiest in all aspects of cunning and mind, of hand and sinew and skill of sword, of dark sorcery and the shaping of plans spanning one hundred hundred thousand years. A shapeshifter, masquerading as an angel of light, yet trapped by his own evil deeds that cannot fully hide the stench he has become.) Personally, at least, I've never seen anyone make Lavos himself more than a parasite or a semi-present evil. I drew a picture of him holding the Flame and all arrayed in sable armour, with sallow skin, a while back, but it wasn't a sig. Yet it is the closest thing to a dark lord I can think of so far as Lavos goes.

Oh, and lastly, Geistrand is indeed cool. Wish me to draw a sword for it? Of what fashion should it be? Katana, falchion, what?[/img]
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 25, 2005, 11:20:42 am
(points up)

What he said.  :D

Wow, not really much I can add, but I think Daniel's ideas re: Crono's nightmare are just awesome.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 12:15:24 pm
Here's the sig...
(http://au.geocities.com/thetreefrogs/sig.jpg)

It's like Lavos is black instead of green here, and the gold stuff...while I can't really make out what it IS, it looks like it could be a crown or something of the sort.  He looks more "regal" if such a thing is possible.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 25, 2005, 12:53:59 pm
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Here's the sig...
(http://au.geocities.com/thetreefrogs/sig.jpg)

It's like Lavos is black instead of green here, and the gold stuff...while I can't really make out what it IS, it looks like it could be a crown or something of the sort.  He looks more "regal" if such a thing is possible.


It's the Mammon Machine. He took the Mammon Machine and placed it instead of Lavos' mouth...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 01:17:12 pm
LOL...that's weird...but he still looks awesome :lol:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Zaperking on July 25, 2005, 06:32:08 pm
Yeah, Does look awesome.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 07:04:32 pm
@Daniel: Go for the Geistrand thing.  Something gothic-looking would be in order, as it's a blade that exists partially in the spirit realm.

@all: The Lavos as a dark lord idea did kind of spring from Daniel's thoughts.  I have my own preconceptions of a true dark lord, though; mainly that of Emperor Palpatine, a dark lord so powerful he cheated death, not once but repeatedly, so great was his mastery of the dark side of the Force.  He was a master manipulator as well, entangling the entire universe into his designs for conquest.  The callousness with which he twisted and goaded beings into doing his will much resembles that of Lavos, and toward the end of the plot this type of attack on the Flame's part will be increasingly apparent, especially regarding the Time Crash.

Part of the dialogue between Crono and Lavos will lend itself to how Crono thinks of Hell and pain.  One who believes in any kind of religion hopes that they will go to heaven when they die and has an attachment to those beliefs; they are the "precious" for that person.  This also applies to atheists; one who either does not wish to be morally accountable or who does not find sufficient evidence for the existence of a God continually hopes that they're right, since there's no way to tell for sure.  Hell is more than just a place in any of these cases; it's a question of ideology and perception, of who's right and who's not.  The Sorin backstory uses the Tesseract as Hell; Sorin is erased from history by his own best friend, who will not even remember him after the fact.  The only ones that do are the team, because of time traveler's immunity, and they're the cause of his eternal suffering.  This is the same situation, but in all cases the Tesseract only serves as an enabler; Hell is created from the victim's own perceptions and not from any outside force, just as the Western idea of Hell was created from the thoughts of certain artists and writers such as Dante.  Lavos having an army of fanatical minions and rule over the entire planet is his wet dream.  

But, as I said, the fun doesn't stop there.  What follows is Lavos' master plan.  I'm pretty sure I was drunk when I thought of it, even though I don't have any alcohol in the house and never have.

---------------------------------

The Lavos that Crono encounters in his Tesseract nightmare is only an extension of the real Lavos' will; Lavos has placed Crono into his personal dream, which just happens to be a timeline that never came to pass.  Lavos is trying to use the Frozen Flame, which is still trapped in the mortal world, to alter time in such a way as to make this dream a reality; he's using it as his One Ring, except infinitely more 1337.  In his dream, the Entity itself does not exist; Lavos, using his power and knowledge, has destroyed it and installed himself as the planet's new Gaia, remaking it in His image, which is why it's so twisted.  But that's not even the limit of it.  I've often said that due to the extreme resilience and knowledge that Lavos -- one single being -- possesses, a ship constructed by an entire crew of Lavoids would be a feat even the Galactic Empire would crap their pants at.  This Lavos-controlled planet is the warship.  And there's more of them out there.  Earth was a rare find on Lavos' part, in essence a jewel of the cosmos; the number of planets that have the necessary conditions to evolve critically-thinking, technologically capable life is extremely small, at least on a cosmic scale.  Having been the product of a race on an Earth-like planet experimenting to better themselves, Lavos' birth was something akin to the birth of a Messiah.  He eventually took over his world and, with an entire planet filled with acolytes and willing followers much like the one in Crono's nightmare, set off to conquer the rest of them.  And when I say the rest of them, I absolutely mean it.  He has designs on the entire universe, and the capacity to transfer his soul or extensions of it into other bodies; hence the Frozen Flame.  He can even possess entire planets, rendering him theoretically immortal so long as the planet's star doesn't explode.  He can overshadow others' life forces, willing or not.  He had planned to possess Earth and use it as his body, but just as Earth itself was a unique occurrence, so was its spirit, the Entity; the only one strong enough to resist him.  For sixty-five million years, he waged war on the Earth itself, drawing the DNA and residual spirit energy of the lifeforms on its surface and evolving progressively stronger lifeforms to get more.  This was the only flaw in his plan; eventually, beings strong enough to fight and defeat him occurred, but the vast amount of energy he'd collected enabled him to operate even from the Tesseract, infusing the Frozen Flame with his power.  What he's trying to do with all his power is manifest his dream in the very beginnings of the planet, when the Entity was a nascent consciousness.  In essence, he's trying to kill the Entity in the distant past, and this course of action is causing a massive tear in time.  What this means is that in certain locations, reality and the Tesseract are spilling into each other.  But he isn't through yet; with his planet-ship and his timerip, along with the other worlds conquered by his disciples and Lavos Spawns, he's going to systematically take over the entire universe, absorbing the power of each new planet he conquers for himself.  That may and probably will take him trillions of years, but he's literally got all the time in the universe to make it happen.  When he accomplishes this, he's going to initiate what astronomers and cosmologists term the Big Crunch, and all the planets and stars and galaxies, all of what will at that point be extensions of his will are going to be drawn together, creating a universal point of supergravity and rendering all matter and all possible timelines in the universe a part of Lavos.  At that point, you can guess what the universe will be like; Lavos will remake it in His image.  He will literally be God with a capital G by fulfilling all three of the requirements for such a being:

1) Omnipresent.  All matter and energy in the universe will be a part of Lavos.
2) Omniscient.  He will possess knowledge of literally everything in the universe, as a corollary to number one.
3) Omnipotent.  Come on, would you try to beat him up?  He'd drop a quasar on you and not think twice about it.

Of course, even after foiling that plan, the El Nido paradox will still exist; its sheer magnitude will eventually allow Lavos to absorb enough energy to go about his universe-consuming plan anyway, with Schala's power as an extra added bonus.  This isn't Sephiroth-level Messianic delusion here; Lavos has the knowledge, the resources, and the patience to back it up.  And therein, with the concept of Lavos as God, lies another moral dilemma; how do we know the universe won't be better with Lavos running it?

-------------------

So, to recap:

~Crono nightmare #3 is Lavos' ideal version of Earth where he is the Entity controlling the planet.  That's exactly the reason why it's Hell to Crono.
~Earth is extremely rare; it's one of the relatively few planets that has the potential to evolve life as complex as Lavos.  Earth also has a powerful Entity directing life on its surface; humans are a result of the evolutionary conflict between Lavos and Gaia, possessing the most potent traits of both, albeit in a practically embryonic form.
~Lavos evolved on an Earth-like planet as a result of its denizens attempting experiments to make themselves better.  His birth was the result of a great deal of that modified genetic material being vastly increased in potency with magic.
~Lavos took over his planet and is now looking to conquer the universe in order to become God.
~When Lavos takes over enough planets (almost every single planet in the universe), he's going to initiate the Big Crunch, thus imbuing all matter in the universe with his will.
~Lavos will then remake the universe in his image, right down to the laws of physics, provoking another troublesome moral debate amongst the cast.
~Failing that, Lavos will use the El Nido paradox to absorb enough energy to where in the far future he can just eat the damn universe.  This sets the stage for Chrono Cross.  The reason he can do this is because while a simple alteration in time merely effects a causal shift in the patterns of universal matter, a time paradox creates an infinite number of timelines, one after the other.  Their creation is governed by the flow of Time Error.  The objects and creatures in those timelines possess spirit energy, and residual spirit energy remains in the Tesseract when the timeline is changed.  This is how the Frozen Flame can summon lifelike copies of people out of the DBT.  Lavos consumes whatever spirit energy he isn't using in the mortal plane.  This will mean that Sorin is consumed by Lavos.  Make what you will of that.
~The only way to thwart Lavos' plan is to defeat the Frozen Flame, and the only way to do that is to beat King Zeal, since the Frozen Flame needs an Arbiter to function.  The full extent of Lavos' plan will not be revealed until after the Magus sidequest.  Right after that, we will introduce the Chrono Break and Gaspar's role in thwarting the Flame; as we established earlier in the Sorin story, the Chrono Break's power is to banish someone to the DBT.  Using this on King Zeal would have the desired effect of removing the Frozen Flame's Arbiter, especially since he's an incredibly powerful combatant, but as is demonstrated by the Sorin backstory the effect hasn't been controlled or perfected yet.  Gaspar's knowledge and Schala's sacrifice might be needed for this.  The Chrono Break can also possibly be used by Lavos to assassinate the Entity, thus setting the next phase of his universe-conquerage plan in motion.  The Chrono Break's essentially a McGuffin for the last little bit of the game.

----------------------

Anyway, now is the time for comments and thoughts.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 07:16:16 pm
Whoa...  Deep... :shock:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 25, 2005, 07:22:10 pm
Whoa, you really made Lavos a Dark Lord. A Lavos universe, now THAT freaks me out. And I thought the Dead Sea and 2300 A.D. were depressing.

Excuse me for being ill-informed, but I thought Schala was an Active character? If so, when does she merge with Lavos, or is there something I'm missing here?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 07:24:39 pm
When I said Schala was an extra added bonus, I mean that in the sense of Chrono Cross; at the end of CE, in order to set the stage for CC, she becomes trapped in the DBT with Lavos.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 25, 2005, 07:29:39 pm
Okay, So let me get this straight... This is Schala who got freed by Serge, time travelled and merged with Lavos again to set the stage for CC?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 07:32:29 pm
This is definitely Schala. The crew finds her relatively early in the game, in the ruins of the Ocean Palace; this enables us to have her as a player character.  Lavos was trying to take control of her then, but she's a very strong woman, so it took a while to fully make her submit.  She was sitting inside the Mammon Machine; the crew gets there and frees her before Lavos takes complete control, but his imprint is still left on her mind.  At the end, she sacrifices herself to destroy the Frozen Flame, and becomes trapped in the DBT.  Shortly thereafter (from her frame of reference) she hears Serge crying in 1010 A.D. and sends Kid to Lucca, thus starting the sequence of events resulting in Chrono Cross.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 25, 2005, 07:40:55 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
This is definitely Schala. The crew finds her relatively early in the game, in the ruins of the Ocean Palace; this enables us to have her as a player character.  Lavos was trying to take control of her then, but she's a very strong woman, so it took a while to fully make her submit.  She was sitting inside the Mammon Machine; the crew gets there and frees her before Lavos takes complete control, but his imprint is still left on her mind.  At the end, she sacrifices herself to destroy the Frozen Flame, and becomes trapped in the DBT.  Shortly thereafter (from her frame of reference) she hears Serge crying in 1010 A.D. and sends Kid to Lucca, thus starting the sequence of events resulting in Chrono Cross.


If she destroys the Frozen Flame, then, how does it appear in CC?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 25, 2005, 07:47:14 pm
This may not be the best place to post this, but I'm not sure what is.

Has anyone given any thought to having Temporal Flux expand its menus and displays?  Looking at one of Zeality's screen shots, I noticed the item names could be expanded one character without messing up the look of the main screen.  Extra characters in yellow.

(http://www.angelfire.com/moon/dandymasher/images/test.PNG)

Just a thought.  Since item and tech names are limited to a mere 10 characters, even adding one more character could open a lot of doors when it comes to naming stuff.

Frankly, Crimson Echoes is going to NEED something like this.  Presently, player names can only be 5 characters long (hence we have Crono instead of Chrono),  and Schala's name is 6 characters.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 07:50:50 pm
Well, I suppose she doesn't "destroy" the Flame per se so much as foil its plans.  ZeaLitY and I discussed this a while ago, and came up with a sort of fix for it that I guess I'll go back up there and edit in.

King Zeal is the Flame's Arbiter at this point in time.  Without an Arbiter to attach itself to, the Frozen Flame and thus Lavos has no influence in the mortal world.  In order to destroy its influence and thus Lavos' plan for apotheosis, one must destroy King Zeal.  This is why in Chrono Cross it's so essential that Serge dies.  Unfortunately, in this case, the Frozen Flame isn't being so subtle as it was in CC; just as it does for Antaeus, it pumps fucktons of energy into King Zeal for the final fight, but unlike Antaeus, King Zeal has a ton of inborn magic power - almost as much as his children.  Amplified by the Frozen Flame, he can become a fearsome fighting force.  King Zeal has to die, and somehow Schala has to be the one to effect this.

I wanted a storyline that has Lavos living up to the ultimate ambition of a dark lord; the method by which Lavos intends to become God stems at least partially from the Force, as does the defeat of the Frozen Flame.  The Force is said to bind everything in the universe; it even exists in things that aren't alive, though those things are not integral parts of the life cycle.  It is almost as if life itself is a dream of the Force, in the same way that life in Chrono originates from Zurvan, the sea of dreams.  Under the Force's power statues can defeat crack assassins, beasts can fell armies, and a kid barely out of high school (home school?) can make a torpedo execute a 90 degree turn in less than a second at 70,000 Gs to destroy a moon-sized battle station.  

In the vein of Schala, Palpatine was not destroyed without sacrifice.  He was not destroyed once, but no fewer than three times before he was finally gone forever.  Once was in Return of the Jedi, once was six years later in Dark Empire by Luke and Leia, and once shortly after that when Han Solo shot up his ailing, inferior clone body with a good old-fashioned blaster flurry.  After that, Empatojayos Brand, an aging, long-absent Jedi of the Old Republic, imprisoned the dying Palpatine in his wounded body, destroying his spirit and killing Brand.  Of course, Brand went on to join the Force, while Palpatine went to whatever constitutes eternal separation from it; by being a Sith, he was directly opposing the Force's will, which is that of life.  Death is a part of life, but not death caused by sentient atrocities.

Edit: Bloody hell, you'd think I'd remember that Schala has 6 letters in her name.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 07:58:15 pm
So how DO we solve the problem of Schala's name? :shock:  I never thought of that before either...  This COULD be a problem.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 08:01:54 pm
Expand the menus, I guess.  Unfortunately, that runs into the same problem we had earlier, when we wanted to accommodate the menus to make Sorin a playable character.  Frankly though, that would have been too cliched.  Having him attempt futile temporal vengeance and then getting annihilated by his best friend in that same manner is both more satisfying and more feasible.  But Schala's an integral part of the story.  For CE, so is Sorin, but he isn't in the sequel, mainly because we made him up just for this.  Schala on the other hand is.

Edit: Did I just say more satisfying?  Jesus, I need my head examined.  Again.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 08:16:30 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Expand the menus, I guess.

Anyone know if we can do this?  I'm thinking that if even Square didn't go to the trouble to give the capacity for a 6th letter, we may really be at a roadblock on this one.  Geiger?  Chickenlump?  ZeaLitY?  Input?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 08:18:47 pm
Well, we could always call her Shala, or Scala, or Schla, or Schwa, or maybe just Girl.  I like Schwa the best.

On the other hand, we could get rid of the ability to name characters, because people who would name their characters Penis or Osama or Cloud or Sephy or Vader or Lukie or w00t! or Woofy or Bitch or...yeah, you get the idea.  They wouldn't understand the plot anyway.  They don't even have to be denoted on the menu; a picture should be good enough.  But in all probability, we can expand the naming to account for Schala and some other weapons.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 25, 2005, 08:21:40 pm
I really wouldn't worry too much over menu expansion, especially in instances where it does not require resizing or redrawing the various partitions of the menu.  Personally, I don't know the first thing about ROM hacking, but I do know that menu expansion is very common in the hacking/translating scene.  I'm sure it's doable in this case.  Just thought I should bring this to your attention now.  I'd hate for you to be all ready to go, and THEN realize you're screwed.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 25, 2005, 08:28:14 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Well, we could always call her Shala, or Scala, or Schla, or Schwa, or maybe just Girl.  I like Schwa the best.

On the other hand, we could get rid of the ability to name characters, because people who would name their characters Penis or Osama or Cloud or Sephy or Vader or Lukie or w00t! or Woofy or Bitch or...yeah, you get the idea.  They wouldn't understand the plot anyway.  They don't even have to be denoted on the menu; a picture should be good enough.  But in all probability, we can expand the naming to account for Schala and some other weapons.


I think by far Shala is the best. You see, it is very uncommon for an sch in English to have the sh sound, the only instances being the British quirk for schedule, and words of German origin. It is my German background that got me pronouncing Schala as Shala, I think, but in this matter, I think I may be technically correct, anyway. See, wasn't Schala Sara originally? If I'm not mistaken, the r and l are same in Japanese, this makes it Sala. Now imagine a Japanese person saying this. It wouldn't be Skala, unless I miss my guess, but rather Shala. Either Woosly made a mistake, or rather thought that Schala looked prettier when written down than Shala.

By the way... anybody consider my ideas for Chrono's later nightmare, yet?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 08:49:44 pm
Yes, Daniel, you're right about the technicalities of her name, but if Ted Woolsey decided that "Schala" looked prettier than any other form of the name, I'd have to agree with him.  Yeah, I guess we could also take away the option to name characters and just have the names hard-coded into the strings, the thing that bugs me is just that her name would show up as "Schal" in battle and on menus.

I suppose that's not too bad, since Lunar did that in its original games on the Sega CD...  Character names were kinda lengthy, but the battle menu's names were limited to 4 letters.  So Ghaleon was displayed as "GHAL", Ronfar was "RONF", etc.

But please, for the love of Zeal, DON'T just outright CHANGE her name!!!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 10:04:54 pm
I did consider some of the ideas, but in my opinion the vacant place for Hell is cliched; not only that, the defiled Earth is a more effective demonstrator of Lavos' capabilities and raw anger.  Sorin's personal hell in the Tesseract is akin to the vacancy Daniel described, but it is promptly overshadowed when his soul gets consumed by Lavos; I wonder if a theme of redemption/purgatory for Sorin can be incorporated into the final Calasperan scenario.  Lavos' master plan serves as Crono's personal Hell, and it has an extensive story behind it to back that up.  Actually, to some degree, it's all of our personal hells, too; if Lavos achieved true godhood as he proposes to do, no one's belief system would be right, and none of us would be spared from his wrath.  While belief in Heaven and Hell is a thesis one can scarcely prove empirically, Lavos has come up with a scheme to make it observable; he's going to use the universe's own unique laws of science and magic to take it over.  That's supposed to get somebody to wondering; if Lavos thought that Earth had the capacity to develop life as complex and powerful as he is on a large scale, what could humans eventually do?  What could technology and our own wills eventually empower us to do, and what's the limit of that?  And corollary with the game's theme of attachment, why would we want to do X in the first place?

I pronounce Schala's name as 'shala' because it sounds pretty and flowery and stuff.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 25, 2005, 10:20:46 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I did consider some of the ideas, but in my opinion the vacant place for Hell is cliched;


Truly? Rather, I have seen the opposite, in near to every depiction in near to every movie and game, it is always a place of fire and present torment. And as I said, the sinister threat of things lurking in the shadows of light are far more terrible than the outright seeing of things vile. Once again I admonish you consider this - it is my one dilemma with the story that I have seen so far. A demonic devil with subservient minions is far too cliched, I think. I prefer to tread more the ground that stems from theology and the like, rather than from common depictions - remember the staple in most truly terrifying horror is not to show the evil thing. Anyway, do as you will, I suppose, but if there were anything I would think truly needed to be done differently, it is this.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 10:22:31 pm
Maybe that could be a poll, since Zeality is clearly running out of good stuff to ask...  "How do you pronounce Schala's name?"

SHAH-luh
SKAH-luh
*tries to think of other options*

Meh, nevermind...

Question about the Crono nightmares...  To explore Crono's mind so deeply and what he fears and such, as well as to have him go and ask who is this that is masquerading as God...  Would Crono need to have lines?  Or will he again be silent?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 10:39:25 pm
Yes, he will have lines in this game.  Actually, he will speak with a frequency befitting a male lead, because the whole "silent protagonist" thing is bullshit.  He has lines in officially produced manga, so why not the game?  I will again use Link as an example here; in the games he does not speak, except to respond to questions or to make the sounds of battle, but in the various mangas he speaks a goodly amount, the amount that one would expect the lead protagonist to hold.

For the hell-timeline, it will only look like hell at first glance, but all of the acolytes Crono talks to will be exalting their lord, claiming that it's paradise.  I suppose we could dump the gothic architecture and render it merely an alien world, repulsive to Crono and us but a paradise to Lavos' acolytes.  The gothic architecture and concept of hell would only appear at the end, because that's how Crono thinks of it.  After outlining that, Lavos goes on to explain what hell really is; a collection of perceptions.  There are thoughts among theologians that hell is, rather than either a place of preset generic torture or a place of vacancy, a realm set aside for an individual, where all of their fears are brought to them in full force.  I don't necessarily agree with this perspective, but it seems like the perfect thing for Lavos to do.

For the record: Most "truly terrifying" horror doesn't scare me in the least.  It makes me laugh and spill my Pepsi more often than not; you know why?  Because the most horrible thing in the world isn't being tortured, or killed.  It isn't even uncertainty; I could go outside right now and a fucking helicopter could fall on me and shear me in half and you know what?  Who cares?  Stuff happens.  That isn't the mark of terror.  Insanity is.  It's having reality smash down your door and ream you in the ass with either a belief or a situation that melts your thought processes to shit.  It's questioning your own sanity at those events and being derided by people who either don't know or don't give a shit.  Just being alone doesn't cut it; there are plenty of people who would LOVE to just be alone, with nothing else there.  The fact that most of them are moronic, disaffected college students aside, you've got to have more.  Despite the presence of other living organisms in Lavos' twisted universe, Crono is most definitely alone, except for all his fears.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 25, 2005, 10:55:05 pm
How indescribably cruel...  Yes, it is indeed perfect for Lavos.  Hmm...I wonder, since Lavos is partly based on Cthulu, was Cthulu supposedly that hateful?  What would Cthulu do to its prey?

Quote from: Hadriel
That isn't the mark of terror. Insanity is. It's having reality smash down your door and ream you in the ass with either a belief or a situation that melts your thought processes to shit. It's questioning your own sanity at those events and being derided by people who either don't know or don't give a shit.


Case in point: Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem.  Take notes. :)

Speaking of those questions and things that melt your thought processes, I want to bring up a point someone mentioned some time ago about Guardia...  They mentioned that Guardia was most likely a Christian (or along the same lines, in terms of religious affinity) nation, and with such belief systems firmly engraved in the minds of its people, Lavos' mere existence is blasphemy to everything they "know" to be true.  His mere existence makes them question themselves.  Especially so when he chooses to deliberately toy with their minds!
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 25, 2005, 11:00:29 pm
I've played Eternal Darkness inside and out 23 ways to Coruscant.  The game has a STORY.  Jesus, that game has a story.  The nature of its characters elevates it far above your average RPG/Japanese pseudo-philosophical tripe.

Daniel mentioned that Guardia was most likely Christian, and I agree with that assessment.  I was also the one who suggested the blasphemy inherent in Lavos.  This is in a sense the ultimate culmination of that train of thought.

At the same time, however, it isn't a blatantly anti-religious point of view; the existence of the Entity precludes that.  Not only that, making a game where the plot's entire point is to bash religion is a tired idea done by goths who never grew up.  Those people ought to get a clue; no one gives a fuck what they think just because they're rebelling against "the establishment."
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shinrin on July 26, 2005, 01:37:45 am
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Hadriel
Expand the menus, I guess.

Anyone know if we can do this?  I'm thinking that if even Square didn't go to the trouble to give the capacity for a 6th letter, we may really be at a roadblock on this one.  Geiger?  Chickenlump?  ZeaLitY?  Input?


well you could use her japanese name which is Sara or Sarah
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 01:42:45 am
Quote from: Shinrin
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Hadriel
Expand the menus, I guess.

Anyone know if we can do this?  I'm thinking that if even Square didn't go to the trouble to give the capacity for a 6th letter, we may really be at a roadblock on this one.  Geiger?  Chickenlump?  ZeaLitY?  Input?


well you could use her japanese name which is Sara or Sarah


Which, when said by a Japanese person, sounds very alike Shala, I think.

Anyway... Lavos based off Chthulu? Do you mean the actual one, or the one in CE? Because I personally think him far nearer Sauron, especially if you consider the drowning of Numenor and Sauron's other earlier deeds such as that. Though I suppose the name Chthulu is fitting for something as Lavos, though that spelling is messed up from Greek. Let's see... Khthulu is likely nearer, as Khthon is the earth, I think. The kh is a chi, and the th is a theta, neither of which have an equivalent in English.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 02:06:53 am
The vision of Lavos we're using here is probably a lot closer to Sauron.  The one in the actual games is closer to Cthulhu, because his influence is more subtle and barely anyone knows about him.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 02:25:39 am
Quote from: Hadriel
The vision of Lavos we're using here is probably a lot closer to Sauron.  The one in the actual games is closer to Cthulhu, because his influence is more subtle and barely anyone knows about him.


Then you likely do not know Sauron well from the Second Age, either. He was extremely cunning and subtle. Who knew that Anatar was in fact a Maia and, moreover, chief luitenant to the Dark Lord Morgoth of old himself? Even Celebrimbor, Fëanor's own son, was won over! I tell you, that deceiver was subtle indeed. And his deeds echo so incredibly near to those of Lavos. The power of Lavos is what tempts the queen, and her ill-fated quest for immortality destroys Zeal. The king of Numenor, Tar-Kalion, is tempted by Sauron to march with war and gain immortal life, and Numenor is whelmed in the sea. And in his coming to earth, Lavos is akin to Sauron's ancient master. See:
'and he took visible form, but because of his mmod and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clade in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.'
And later he delves himself a mighty fortress named Utumno, and an armoury named Angband (later his chief citadel), and from there guides the will of his servants, and twists creatures into his foul creations, into orcs and the Foaloke, the Fire Drakes of the north.

Anyway, from what I know of Sauron, I would argue the game version to be quite similar after a fashion or, rather, a mingling of Saruon and Morgoth (named Melkor in the preceding quote)

Now, you see, if you ARE using a vision of Lavos near Sauron... hmmm... is he a shapeshifter, then? Because few people know what and who Sauron is. Most think him just to be the impersonal enemy in Barad Dur. Truly, to make Lavos as Sauron, is what I attempted when I wrote ToF; I do not think I succeeded, although I retained the echoes of such a dark lord and deceiver within it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 03:07:42 am
Quote from: Shinrin
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Hadriel
Expand the menus, I guess.

Anyone know if we can do this?  I'm thinking that if even Square didn't go to the trouble to give the capacity for a 6th letter, we may really be at a roadblock on this one.  Geiger?  Chickenlump?  ZeaLitY?  Input?


well you could use her japanese name which is Sara or Sarah


And as I said earlier...please, for the love of Zeal, DON'T just straight-up change her name!  I kill you. :x

About Lavos, I was referring to what the games' creators based him off of.  At least, I have read somewhere on here that they based him of Cthulu or however the name is spelled.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 03:28:03 am
I haven't read the Silmarillion, so I wouldn't know.  I recognize Feanor, Celebrimbor, the term Arda, Melkor, and the Valar.  Cthulhu was invented well before Sauron or Melkor, though, and one can hardly say that Lavos is a conventional dark lord, if only because of what he's managed to accomplish in-game; that doesn't even go into him surviving landing here in the first place.  He's a dark lord primarily because he has the capacity for grand schemes, but that's just his style of conquest; it isn't a character archetype nearly as much as some people think it is.

Once you strip away all of Lavos' ludicrous power and all the grand and terrifying schemes he's concocted, what remains is his character and intentions; in short, the fact that he's an evil murdering bastard who doesn't care about anyone but his own spiky ass.  Crono's smart enough to figure that out, which is why he'd rather remain "in the thrall" of a supposedly hypocritical Entity based on what he knows, because the Entity's just trying to defend itself, which is something all sentient beings have a right to do.  But Lavos had to come down here bringin' all this ruckus and tryin' to conquer the universe and stuff.  Underneath everything, he's a sentient with sentient desires, ideals, and attachments, just like the rest of us.  

Or is he?  He could have chosen to be a saint.  For all we know, he could have evolved beyond sin or other abstract concepts.  More thoughts?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 04:13:12 am
Quote from: Hadriel
I haven't read the Silmarillion, so I wouldn't know.  I recognize Feanor, Celebrimbor, the term Arda, Melkor, and the Valar.  Cthulhu was invented well before Sauron or Melkor, though, and one can hardly say that Lavos is a conventional dark lord, if only because of what he's managed to accomplish in-game; that doesn't even go into him surviving landing here in the first place.  He's a dark lord primarily because he has the capacity for grand schemes, but that's just his style of conquest; it isn't a character archetype nearly as much as some people think it is.

Once you strip away all of Lavos' ludicrous power and all the grand and terrifying schemes he's concocted, what remains is his character and intentions; in short, the fact that he's an evil murdering bastard who doesn't care about anyone but his own spiky ass.  Crono's smart enough to figure that out, which is why he'd rather remain "in the thrall" of a supposedly hypocritical Entity based on what he knows, because the Entity's just trying to defend itself, which is something all sentient beings have a right to do.  But Lavos had to come down here bringin' all this ruckus and tryin' to conquer the universe and stuff.  Underneath everything, he's a sentient with sentient desires, ideals, and attachments, just like the rest of us.  

Or is he?  He could have chosen to be a saint.  For all we know, he could have evolved beyond sin or other abstract concepts.  More thoughts?


Well, seeing as sin is not abstract but absolute (as it is in near to all religions), and thus something one cannot 'evolve' out of: the same laws bind all the world, and only One is above them. Oddly enough, He is the one most often called into account by Man based on Man's laws. The irony.

But regarding Sauron and Melkor... well, Melkor is technically far older than Cthulu, considering that Melkor is meant to be Satan. The Ainulindalë makes that very apparent, and thus the model, at least (and thus the result) is inherently older.

However, I do not think that Cthulu was the basis for Lavos. From what I know of the subject (which is very little), Cthulu was something in the water, a Kraken of sorts, whereas Lavos burrowed into the earth.

Oh, and Hadriel: Read the Silmarillion. It is, I think, the best book of mythology and legend ever put to paper. It takes the best of all north-western myths and legends, and refines and combines them into a coherent and grand tale of piercing beauty and sorrow, shown through a keenly Christian perspective (ie. all mortal - and immortal in the case of the Elves - struggle against evil is doomed to fail, and so we must look to salvation rather than our own strength.) It is so clear, so fresh seeming, like a breath of of spring air. Few things, even amidst illustrious books such as the Iliad, can compare to Fingolfin battling Morgoth, or Beren and Luthien before his dark throne. My father, a theologian as you know, thinks very well of the Ainulindalë, the Song of the Ainur, Tolkien's creation myth.

Oh, by the way, what makes a Dark Lord? I think it somewhat of a folly to continually use the full capital rendering, and think it should rather be simply dark lord, as that is what it meant. A mighty lord who commands with darkness. In the case of Lavos, all this does is preclude understanding of his deeds, and the title means little more than that.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 02:33:02 pm
By evolving beyond sin, I don't mean evolving to where the concept doesn't apply to him; I mean becoming an angel of sorts.  But, other than wattage, what's the difference between a man and an angel if they both have freedom of choice?

As for fighting evil, evil forces in the mortal world can be destroyed.  Given advanced technology, it'd be easy enough to just nuke Mordor and be done with it.  Everything has a limit.  It's only the concept of evil that can't be lasered to death.  In Chrono Cross, Schala talks about evolving into a new universe; but what would be the distinguishing feature of this new universe?  Why would it be any better than the last one if evil still existed?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shinrin on July 26, 2005, 02:54:02 pm
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Shinrin
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Hadriel
Expand the menus, I guess.

Anyone know if we can do this?  I'm thinking that if even Square didn't go to the trouble to give the capacity for a 6th letter, we may really be at a roadblock on this one.  Geiger?  Chickenlump?  ZeaLitY?  Input?


well you could use her japanese name which is Sara or Sarah


And as I said earlier...please, for the love of Zeal, DON'T just straight-up change her name!  I kill you. :x

About Lavos, I was referring to what the games' creators based him off of.  At least, I have read somewhere on here that they based him of Cthulu or however the name is spelled.


why not that is her name? just cause woolsey translated it wrong doesn't mean sara/sarah is wrong. course i can see that the Shala could been gotten outta Sara. which was a goof on the translator part.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 03:13:23 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
By evolving beyond sin, I don't mean evolving to where the concept doesn't apply to him; I mean becoming an angel of sorts.  But, other than wattage, what's the difference between a man and an angel if they both have freedom of choice?


This question should be easy to answer for a theologian's son.
Angels are able not to sin, and Man is unable not to sin - and in heaven, we will be unable to sin. That's the sum total of it in short words, as my father has told me.

Quote from: Hadriel

As for fighting evil, evil forces in the mortal world can be destroyed.  Given advanced technology, it'd be easy enough to just nuke Mordor and be done with it.  Everything has a limit.  It's only the concept of evil that can't be lasered to death.  In Chrono Cross, Schala talks about evolving into a new universe; but what would be the distinguishing feature of this new universe?  Why would it be any better than the last one if evil still existed?


Certainly they can be destroyed in the physical sense, but there is more to extra-physical evil than just a concept. Satan is in the Christian sense more than a concept, yet could not be done in by any amount of technology. That is the very point of the Silmarillion: that the history of Man's war against sin and evil has been an inherently losing battle. For all their zeal and might, the Noldor and the High Elves, and all the men of good will, are almost utterly defeated. Morgoth triumphs, and not all the strength of the mighty, not of Turgon nor Fëanor, can stop it. At times it is the enemy's overnumbering strength, while at other times it is treachery and disharmony amidst those that should be allies - itself a guile of the enemy's - that brings about his victory. That is what makes the Silmarillion so sombre. There is no great work of heroes that directly defeats Morgoth, and all their strength turns out for nothing. There is no glorious day where Elves or Men can stand proud and say: we've thrown down the ancient enemy. No, rather the opposite. When Men and Elves contend against it, it is evil that victors in the end. That is the theme of the Silmarillion, and the idea of this can carry over even to our own real world, as Tolkien no doubt intended. Sin and evil and human nature, for a Christian, are no mere concepts: they are potent forces that seek to destroy us, through guided will.

If it were up to me, I would make it that Lavos cannot be defeated by any of the heroes, only by a fated happening - that is the Tolkien tradition of the Dark Lords, whether through the fated destroying of the Ring by Frodo that was achieved not through human will but through fate, or the voyage of Earendil that saved Elves and Men in times past, again a fated occurance, not achieved though human might. If he is truly a Dark Lord, capitalized so, of Sauron's vein, then he would need to die a similar death through oversight of fate and arrogance in his own power. That is the path I took, at least, and one reason why I call my interpretation a Dark Lord.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 03:40:19 pm
Quote from: Shinrin
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Shinrin
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Hadriel
Expand the menus, I guess.

Anyone know if we can do this?  I'm thinking that if even Square didn't go to the trouble to give the capacity for a 6th letter, we may really be at a roadblock on this one.  Geiger?  Chickenlump?  ZeaLitY?  Input?


well you could use her japanese name which is Sara or Sarah


And as I said earlier...please, for the love of Zeal, DON'T just straight-up change her name!  I kill you. :x

About Lavos, I was referring to what the games' creators based him off of.  At least, I have read somewhere on here that they based him of Cthulu or however the name is spelled.


why not that is her name? just cause woolsey translated it wrong doesn't mean sara/sarah is wrong. course i can see that the Shala could been gotten outta Sara. which was a goof on the translator part.


Nevertheless, to change what you call her is kind of weird, since that's what most players know her as...regardless of whether they know how the name came about.  I think it's just kind of dumb to call her Schala throughout CT and CC and then just all of a sudden call her Sarah in CE, with no decent in-game reason.  Besides, the name "Schala" was probably also chosen for its exotic sound, which fit perfectly with the Zealian atmosphere.  "Sarah" is (1) too plain-Jane, and (2) WAAAAAY too common.  You're not going to change Ozzie's name to Mayonnaise, are you?  That's what his original name was!  Ozzie is Ozzie, period.  Blame it on Woolsey, but for continuity and smoothness, we really need to stick with the names they're known by on our shores.  Schala is Schala.  Please don't change it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on July 26, 2005, 04:15:37 pm
One trick that may work is to combine two letters into one tile by graphics hacking the font. S c h a la (the 'la' would be one tile and not two seperate tiles). Someone pick a tile that everyone agrees that they don't use (a letter or number or symbol that is used for naming things in game) and I could hack it to fit for Schala.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 04:32:11 pm
How about the Infinity symbol?  It's only used on the Epoch's control-screen, and the symbol is just placed next to the End Of Time.  We can probably do without that.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 26, 2005, 07:32:27 pm
I agree with Jake-A-Roonie.  Sara is not Schala's "real" name.  Schala's "real" name is... Schala.  It doesn't matter what she is called in the Japanese-language edition.  Her name as Schala is just as canon as anything else.  Changing it is (hopefully) just totally out of the question, especially when preserving the feel of Chrono Trigger (at least, the version of the game which CE's potential players actually KNOW) is of paramount importance.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 07:43:24 pm
A deus ex machina to defeating Lavos would be kind of lame; realistically, conflicts should be solved largely on the battlefield.  

On evil as a concept: Assume Christianity as fact for the duration of this particular argument.  Satan at one time was an angel; if there was no evil before Satan, then it stands to reason that he must have developed the concept.  If that is the case, then evil does indeed exist independently of even angels.  Angels are also capable of free choice, just as we are, but what is it that makes them able to choose to not sin?  If they know of the concept of evil as we do, are they not just as guilty of sin as humans?  The only reasonable solution would be that angels are ignorant beings; it's safe to say that Lavos cannot erase the knowledge he's gained, nor would he want to.

As for Sauron and Melkor being unable to be defeated by armies, it's relatively clear that what they represent - the concept of sin - can't be destroyed.  Sauron, however, was destroyed easily enough.  Throw a ring into a boiling lake of lava and presto, he's done for.  What is the true impact of the tale, then, if such is all that is required?  The theme of looking for salvation sustains itself to far greater effect if modern technology would be of little or no help in destroying Melkor or Sauron; as it stands there are innumerable ways for people with our level of technological advancement to defeat him.  To my knowledge, the ancient Eldarion weren't a starfaring power; Tolkien wasn't a science fiction writer, after all.  Using Sauron as the example here, one could destroy the Orcish armies with an airstrike and send a SpecForce team into the mountain to drop the ring off.  One could simply nuke the mountain and Barad'dur and place the ring in containment, while developing even more powerful weaponry to deconstruct the image of Sauron.  Cloaking devices, more powerful guns, aircraft, technologies that were once only science fiction (gravity altering tech, DET weaponry, etc.); all of these have more potency than the One Ring, and I would sooner take one of them into a battle.  The One Ring's lone advantage is the intense psychological impact it has on both its bearer and everyone around him; on a mass scale, Sauron could possibly even use it to defeat the armies of today, especially since Saruman did develop gunpowder, and a mine will kill you just as dead as a laser gun.  

What was the One Ring physically made out of, anyway?  It was apparently able to withstand far more heat than a conventional metal would before glowing; and even then only a set portion of the metal glowed, likely meaning it was made from something with a far lower specific heat.  As far as we know, magic aside the laws of physics still apply in Lord of the Rings; such is the epistemology of Suspension of Disbelief, which is also the analytical doctrine we use on Chrono here.  The Ring "becoming heavier" does make a certain amount of sense; if the Ring was able to withstand being tossed into a fire without glowing itself, it must either be made of unobtanium or be extremely dense, a circumstance which would be facilitated by the fact that Sauron made it inside a volcano.  In the latter case, it would likely be too heavy for even Elessar to carry easily, let alone Frodo.  Tungsten has one of the highest melting points of all the known metals, and you yourself have suggested that mithril/mythril (circle one) might be merely code for titanium.  Some have suggested that warp drives in Star Trek employ a kind of mass-lightening technique, in which some of the ship's mass is dumped into subspace; if the One Ring and thus Sauron were capable of this kind of a feat, it would both explain the increasing heft of the Ring and the magnitude of Sauron's power, which would put him alone on a par with some science fiction mainline warships such as the Enterprise; this would make him very formidable indeed, though he would still pale in comparison to Lavos, who's capable of destroying a midsized Imperial warship singlehandedly and probably putting up a hell of a fight against even a Star Destroyer or comparable ship.

As far as Lavos' dialogue goes, Lavos represents more than just evil and selfishness; he's also a representative of the basic evolutionary desire that drives us to compete and that drives some people to assume relativistic moral schemes to make themselves feel better.  A universe without Lavos will still contain all the evils he represents, but what about the new universe?  If one removes the spirit of Lavos, the drive to evolve, what is one left with?  The only state in which there is no need for competition is a state of paradise; Communism tried that, and failed horribly.  Some deep change in the very moral fabric of the universe itself must be effected in order to have a universe that is truly free of Lavos.  What is that change?  Maybe that's where we're supposed to leave the player hanging; we don't know, either, but it'll be a fun ride trying to figure it out.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 08:25:49 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
A deus ex machina to defeating Lavos would be kind of lame; realistically, conflicts should be solved largely on the battlefield.


No, not really. I did it after a fashion, and I will do it again for other writing. It ascribes victory not to some arrogant human action, but to fate.

Quote from: Hadriel

On evil as a concept: Assume Christianity as fact for the duration of this particular argument.  Satan at one time was an angel; if there was no evil before Satan, then it stands to reason that he must have developed the concept.  If that is the case, then evil does indeed exist independently of even angels.  Angels are also capable of free choice, just as we are, but what is it that makes them able to choose to not sin?  If they know of the concept of evil as we do, are they not just as guilty of sin as humans?  The only reasonable solution would be that angels are ignorant beings; it's safe to say that Lavos cannot erase the knowledge he's gained, nor would he want to.


Tolkien theorizes on this beautifully. Melkor's decent into darkness came not of a lust for power or control, but merely of a desire to create, and bring things of his own into being. That is actually what drove him to his darkness, for he wove things of his own design into the Song, against the will of Eru. However, as Eru says, those who work contrary to his purpose find that, in the end, all things DO end up working to His ends, and none can change things without his foreknowledge and wish. The thing is, people were also 'able not to sin' as the angels, and given free choice. Thus the Garden of Eden. But mankind chose sin, and thus became enslaved to it, and became unable to choose not to sin (our existance being inherently sinful, and even good deeds, because they are done by a flawed race, are sinful.) Now, this is where Christ in Christian belief comes in: saving those who could not save themselves, and returning things to their prior state of harmony - perhaps even bettering it! Now, perhaps the same holds true for fallen angels. Perhaps there is some salvation for them too, but if there is, then it is likely beyond our understanding and knowledge, and not our buisness.

Quote from: Hadriel

As for Sauron and Melkor being unable to be defeated by armies, it's relatively clear that what they represent - the concept of sin - can't be destroyed.  


But they do not represent the concept of sin, they represent the devil. There is rebellion and hatred in the hearts of the Eldar that is instilled by Melkor, but is not openly controlled by him. Seeds of lies and so forth, and it is partially for this that firstly Fëanor abandoned Aman and went into his hopeless war.

Quote from: Hadriel

Sauron, however, was destroyed easily enough.  Throw a ring into a boiling lake of lava and presto, he's done for.  


An effect of his own arrogance. Remember, though, that was not the victory of Frodo the Halfling. If any upon Arda can claim it, it is a Maia named Olorin - in other guises known as Tharkun, Incanus, Mithrandir, and Gandalf - and his lord Manwë. But, in truth, the true victory, as I'm certain Tolkien would say, lies with Eru. Remember what Gandalf says? There are other forces at work in this world besides the will of evil. And he says that Frodo and Bilbo may have been 'meant' to have the ring. What does this mean? I forget exactly what he said on the matter, though I know he did comment on it, but fate as the hand of Eru is ever-present and, though Frodo could have abandoned the quest and allowed things to fall into darkness, fate still was there. Eru still was there. The victory in Tolkien's world is not to Men, or Elves, or Wizards, and not even the Valar. It is the dark ones, Morgoth and his kin, who would say such things as that. The Valar do all things as stewards of Eru, and it is he that truly guided the destroying of the ring.

Quote from: Hadriel

What is the true impact of the tale, then, if such is all that is required?  The theme of looking for salvation sustains itself to far greater effect if modern technology would be of little or no help in destroying Melkor or Sauron; as it stands there are innumerable ways for people with our level of technological advancement to defeat him.  To my knowledge, the ancient Eldarion weren't a starfaring power; Tolkien wasn't a science fiction writer, after all.  Using Sauron as the example here, one could destroy the Orcish armies with an airstrike and send a SpecForce team into the mountain to drop the ring off.  


Wrong, there. The Teleri were mighty sailors, who built ships that our own history could not have rivalled till the 20th century. The swan-ships of Aqualondë were incredibly majestic. But if you look for power, look no further than Numenor. What mighty mariners they were! They lived upon an island, the fabled ship-kings. In some tales they seem to have had iron-clad ships that needed no wind to said, rather running under their own power. They had 'darts that flew over leagues unerring and passed like thunder'... guided missiles, anyone? These, actually, were crafts brought about by the coming of Sauron, but were possessed by Numenor ere the end nonetheless. And even before this, the might of Numenor coming to Middle-Earth was such that Sauron's armies abandoned him, and he perforce surrendered. That is the sea-power of Numenor. And here is yet another thing: the later people built ships that could fly in the upper airs of the world. Flying ships, indeed! And the Palantiri... do you know what that is translated into English? Tele-vision, no joke! So they had long-distance communications. Yes, Tolkien took science into very careful account. Why else, in the Silmarillion, would he specifically say that after there were trees, as yet there were no flowering plants? He knew the fossil evidence, and rationalized it another way.

The thing is, why could not have they just gotten Gwaihir the Eagle to fly them into Mordor? Well, perhaps the Nazgul could have stopped them. And Sauron has many crafts of skill by which he could overcome even a special forces team. Remember Saruman and his 'blasting powder'? Well, Sauron is a mightier sorcerer and craftsman than Saruman. No special forces team could have neared Mordor: his eye was too alert, and he would have seen it coming. Frodo really was the only chance, I suppose. Remember what Elrond says? Even if he had a host of Elves from the Elder days clad in mail, it would serve no aid but to arouse the anger of the dark lord.

Quote from: Hadriel

One could simply nuke the mountain and Barad'dur and place the ring in containment, while developing even more powerful weaponry to deconstruct the image of Sauron.  Cloaking devices, more powerful guns, aircraft, technologies that were once only science fiction (gravity altering tech, DET weaponry, etc.); all of these have more potency than the One Ring, and I would sooner take one of them into a battle.  The One Ring's lone advantage is the intense psychological impact it has on both its bearer and everyone around him; on a mass scale, Sauron could possibly even use it to defeat the armies of today, especially since Saruman did develop gunpowder, and a mine will kill you just as dead as a laser gun.
 

NO! NO! Do not name it so! Barad'Dur? Wherefrom does that come from? It is BARAD-DUR. Barad is tower, Dur is dark. Like in Durin, I suppose, or Barad Nimrais, and so forth. There is not that bloody little whatever in near anything of Tolkien's!

And anyway, actually, they don't have anything on the Ring, and you underestimate what you said about it. The One Ring... it has the power to affect minds, to bind wills and minds together as a form of ultimate propoganda, almost. If Sauron were in the real world, he would have it under his heel in a week. No joke, it would be that easy for him. People are so easily swayed, and that is just the thing that the ring would prey on! The power of the ring isn't some weak 'invisibility'. With it Sauron could by guile take command of the United States, and hold its people in thrall as a type of Hitler with little effort. The Ring is no magical object that if you hold it has this or that specific effect. It is power, power which corrupts. It is sin in some regard. And, if you look around yourself, that 'ring', Hadriel, is winning. All our nuclear weapons are nothing next to it, because it dwells and dominates the hearts of all men. No technology could equal it.

Quote from: Hadriel

What was the One Ring physically made out of, anyway?  It was apparently able to withstand far more heat than a conventional metal would before glowing; and even then only a set portion of the metal glowed, likely meaning it was made from something with a far lower specific heat.  As far as we know, magic aside the laws of physics still apply in Lord of the Rings; such is the epistemology of Suspension of Disbelief, which is also the analytical doctrine we use on Chrono here.


Nope, there is no magic in Lord of the Rings. Only skill, and divine power - which is what Sauron and Gandalf... and the Balrog and Saruman and Tom Bombadil possessed. I don't know what the Ring is, but it is some very advanced material. Not the most strong, though. The Silmarils would not be destroyed, even in Mount Doom... in fact, one was thrown into the fires at the heart of the earth, and remained there, but was not destroyed, fated to be recovered during the Remaking.


Quote from: Hadriel

The Ring "becoming heavier" does make a certain amount of sense; if the Ring was able to withstand being tossed into a fire without glowing itself, it must either be made of unobtanium or be extremely dense, a circumstance which would be facilitated by the fact that Sauron made it inside a volcano.  In the latter case, it would likely be too heavy for even Elessar to carry easily, let alone Frodo.  Tungsten has one of the highest melting points of all the known metals, and you yourself have suggested that mithril/mythril (circle one) might be merely code for titanium.  Some have suggested that warp drives in Star Trek employ a kind of mass-lightening technique, in which some of the ship's mass is dumped into subspace; if the One Ring and thus Sauron were capable of this kind of a feat, it would both explain the increasing heft of the Ring and the magnitude of Sauron's power, which would put him alone on a par with some science fiction mainline warships such as the Enterprise; this would make him very formidable indeed,


Who knows what Sauron did? There are explanations, I suppose, but it may not be science, it may be skill born from divine power, for he is an angel, one quite nearly connected with fire. Do not forget that in your reasoning. You cannot rationalize that, and seriously: can all our firepower contend with an angel?

Quote from: Hadriel

though he would still pale in comparison to Lavos, who's capable of destroying a midsized Imperial warship singlehandedly and probably putting up a hell of a fight against even a Star Destroyer or comparable ship.


Melkor before he took the form of a Dark Lord and dissipated his power could take a fleet of Star Destroyers single-handedly without any difficulty whatsoever. Firstly, he couldn't be injured by such insignificant weaponry, for he needn't exist in a physical body, like Lavos did. Secondly, and this is unknown to most people... before residing on Arda, where the Children of Iluvatar were destined to arise, the Valar as stewards of the world built it as to the designs of Eru. Varda, the only one of the Valar (actually, Valier, she is female) Melkor feared, she of Light, made the very stars! Now, think on this: forgetting the name, how powerful is a Star Destroyer next to a star? Does it have nearly the energy? And how long does it take Lavos to destroy the world? Sorry, they're all bested, for she was not even greatest of the Valar: Melkor was. The very ones who had a part in setting the destiny of the world. The reason there is evil, or corruption, or war and anger, is because it was Melkor's invention that he put into the Song before time. Even a planet destroyer can do nothing against that, and not a thousand thousand Death Stars could equal it. The only reason such things are not made apparent in Lord of the Rings is because these Valar and Maiar have taken forms more connected with the world proper, and in so doing - especially the case for Melkor and Sauron - have lost some of their power as they put it into the vile things of their creation. But it was there, in origin. And what you see in Lord of the Rings is the Valar working on a detailed, not grand, scale.

Anyway, if you really get down to it, though, it is very difficult to compare them. I think Melkor and Sauron have far more cunning and wide-spanning power than Lavos, yea even the Time Devourer.

If anyone read all that, I'll be mightily impressed.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 08:59:37 pm
I did read all of that; the only points where I disagree are on the power ratings you've assigned to Melkor and Sauron.  We've actually put numbers on Lavos here at the Compendium.  Dr. Curtis Saxton, Ph.D. in astrophysics from the University of Sydney, has weighed in on Star Wars for the numbers used for those ships.

On Melkor: What's wrong with a desire to create?  Isn't that what we're doing right now in working out this plot?  If anything, Lavos' plan to become God plays perfectly into the hands of the universe's will, just as Eru has his will, because it imparts crucial understanding to humans toward that end.

On combat and quantification: A Star Destroyer generates as much power in its hypermatter reactor as a main-sequence star, and so do other comparable ships such as Mon Calamari Star Cruisers.  Battleships like the Executor and the Viscount (a Mon Calamari Star Defender, which is the New Republic/Galactic Alliance's battleship) have many dozens of times the volume of those ships and far more firepower.  So yes, a Star Destroyer does have the energy of a star; it isn't a misnomer.  The Death Star puts out in one blast as much energy as our Sun does in 7,000 years, or approximately 1E38 J.  Unless Melkor can surpass the Star Destroyer figure, he'd have a hell of a time beating Lavos, because of the 100 TT blast figure for Chixulub; a Star Destroyer's heavy turbolaser cannons puke out 100 TT per shot (a figure derived from the Imperial Base Delta Zero operation, a horrendous war crime surpassed in sheer magnitude only by a Death Star strike), and Lavos survived that without so much as a scratch.  It was implied in Chrono Cross that given enough time Lavos could have absorbed enough energy to devour the universe, and then he would have basically been a God.  

I suppose the main connection between Christ and Crono here is not any kind of messianic belief, but the fact that understanding is dispensed through their actions to the rest of humankind.  Jesus said that he brought a new understanding of the Mosaic Law, instead of just destroying it altogether.  Oddly enough (or perhaps expectedly, depending on your point of view) that's how science and understanding in general grows; not by revolution but by evolution.  Even Einstein's "revolutionary" theory of special relativity was based upon James Clerk Maxwell's electromagnetism, which though a landmark was not revolutionary in and of itself.  All the old laws of physics didn't just suddenly stop working when Einstein published his paper.

Feanor as a guy...hmm...I actually have a bit of a history with the name.  There was this chick sophomore year who was as much of a Lord of the Rings fanatic as Daniel is, and just as pagan as he is Christian.  Don't ask me how that happened; I still haven't figured it out.  I can remember wanting to nail her mightily, but that never panned out and she moved to Oklahoma to hang out with ZeaLitY and Co.  Anyway, her name was Rachel, but everyone called her Fay.  The reasons for that were twofold; one was for the classical name for faeries, since everyone in the class agreed that faeries were hawt.  (The class was chemistry and the teacher was one of the reasons I almost got turned off of physics; we used to talk about witchcraft just to piss her off.)  The other reason was for Feanor, since she loved Lord of the Rings.  She inspired me to take my own insignia, which is something akin to a distorted symbol of Xel'lo'tath, as well as to do a lot of other things that guys do when they're by themselves with a dirty magazine.  (Yeah, yeah, I'm tactless, you can put your jaws back in place now.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 26, 2005, 10:05:29 pm
TOO MUCH LOTR TALK >_<

anyway,
just a question about fate:
What makes the destruction of the ring any more an act of fate than a battle? Also, I can understand considering things determined by human will, or by fate, but mixing the two... Half of everything is predetermined, and the other half is choice? That contradicts itself; every choice made determines the decision of further choices, or every choice is already predetermined, but if some choices are left up for decision, they'd affect/contradict the predetermined actions... Can anyone justify free will and fate both existing?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 10:10:48 pm
Sure we can.  With MORE LotR talk :D

The destruction of the Ring was just such an event, both choice and fate.  It became possible through the choices made that brought Frodo & Sam to Mordor, but in spite of Frodo's mental weakness, the Ring ended up being destroyed through the fate that Gollum ended up falling over the edge.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 10:19:14 pm
One cannot justify an omnipotent God in the Christian sense of the word to coexist with free will.  So, in other words, no; under our knowledge of philosophy thus far, it is impossible to justify free will and divine foreknowledge existing together, but divine foreknowledge is not the same thing as fate.  Perhaps this is one of the changes made to an ideal universe?

The choice offered by Christianity is essentially this: Believe this and you'll go to heaven.  Don't believe it and you burn in hell, but it's still your choice.  That's like putting someone at gunpoint and saying you can give me all your money or you can die, but it's still your choice.  This is the viewpoint taken by the literalist faction of Christianity, anyway; I say it can't be justified because no solution offered has satisfied me, which renders it a matter of faith.  I once thought about a framework similar to the Chrono series, in that God knows all possible timelines, but if he doesn't know what you will choose he isn't omniscient.  The fact is the guy with the gun has the authority, and he's going to get your money one way or the other.

Using this train of logic, vehement atheists often portray God as a sadistic monster; a monster much like Lavos, actually.  This is the primary line of thought used to refute Pascal's wager.  Chrono on the other hand extoles the virtue of free will, and argues that victory against Lavos IS a human action, seeing as the Entity is made out to be hypocritical and selfish in Chrono Cross.  Even though the Entity has a hand in Lavos' destruction, it didn't directly attack the beast.  It took humans who were strong and courageous enough to decide to do something about it for Lavos to be destroyed; all Crono had to do to thwart the Entity's attempt at fate was to decide not to fight Lavos.  If atheists are correct in their logic of an evil God, he will be a virtual Lavos clone.

All who've played Knights of the Old Republic II will remember Kreia's attempt to kill the Force.  The Force is said to have a will, but if the Force has a will, then sentient beings aren't really acting freely.  Of course, without the Force there can exist no life, and so the entire universe dies just because someone feels like being independent.  That isn't really a logically sound course to take: if people don't know any different, then who's to say they don't have free will?  If they can't quantify or observe the forces guiding them, their will remains.  The attempt to touch the Force is the same as the attempt to get closer to God, to be part of something larger than oneself; so people can find purpose.  It's hard to say that the Force is the same thing as Lavos; the Force desires life to grow and flourish, while Lavos desires life to bend to his will.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 10:25:17 pm
I am replying to these in a distinctly Christian way, so ZeaLitY, and all others who are not, do not be offended. I am speaking to Hadriel who is Christian, in reply to what he said. Oh, and if you don't care one ounce for this discussion (and I don't blame you, I'm losing intersest myself, and becoming mighty confused, even though I'm still speaking confidently)... skip to the very last paragraph. That's on-topic again.

Quote from: Hadriel
I did read all of that; the only points where I disagree are on the power ratings you've assigned to Melkor and Sauron.  We've actually put numbers on Lavos here at the Compendium.  Dr. Curtis Saxton, Ph.D. in astrophysics from the University of Sydney, has weighed in on Star Wars for the numbers used for those ships.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Melkor: What's wrong with a desire to create?  


Because it stems from a desire to have one's own way. This is by and large a Christian viewpoint, and I do not expect many (say ZeaLitY, for example), to share it. The problem lies not in the creation, but in the intent inherent in it. Melkor's intent was to go against the will of Eru, to do things his way in his time, and not play the part given him. The rebuke of Eru is what gives shame to Melkor, and from this comes his wrath and hatred. Of course, Eru knows how all will end, so it is still his will, but the peril is there. You see, the problem with creation is that it bears the danger of becoming possessive of this. On one hand stand Fëanor and Melkor, who create things and become obsessed with owning them, and on the other we have one such as Aulë, who submits all his deeds to Eru. Essentially, it is the same difference as exists between Technopoly and Tool-Using Cultures, to bring in an earlier discussion of mine. Essentially, the lesson in it is the first commandment: you shall have no other God but me. When one has the desire to create something, the danger is there to think oneself like to God. That is peril and evil, and Chrono Trigger knows it: the desire to be like God, to be immortal, is what destroyed Zeal.

Really, though, I don't expect many to see it this way. It is very radical compared to the paths society shows us nowadays. Everything is believe in yourself, make your own destiny. Well, I say, believe in God, else destiny will destroy you.

Quote from: Hadriel

Isn't that what we're doing right now in working out this plot?  


No. The desire to create things is where Melkor's darkness began, but it was not evil in and of itself. Yavanna creates the Two Trees, and birds and beasts, but this is not evil. Varda the stars, again not evil. Aulë in impatience the Dwarves, but he submits himself to Eru for judgement, and is forgiven - this is where he is shown markedly different than Melkor. The danger comes when we do not submit our creations to be coming from God, belonging to God, and being a part of his ultimate design. To do things one's own way... that is what Melkor was doing when he made the orcs.

Quote from: Hadriel

If anything, Lavos' plan to become God plays perfectly into the hands of the universe's will, just as Eru has his will, because it imparts crucial understanding to humans toward that end.


I couldn't understand what you meant by this segment. Remember: understanding is not the end all and be all of humanity. Faith, love, and hope are.

Quote from: Hadriel

On combat and quantification: A Star Destroyer generates as much power in its hypermatter reactor as a main-sequence star, and so do other comparable ships such as Mon Calamari Star Cruisers.  Battleships like the Executor and the Viscount (a Mon Calamari Star Defender, which is the New Republic/Galactic Alliance's battleship) have many dozens of times the volume of those ships and far more firepower.  So yes, a Star Destroyer does have the energy of a star; it isn't a misnomer.  The Death Star puts out in one blast as much energy as our Sun does in 7,000 years, or approximately 1E38 J.  Unless Melkor can surpass the Star Destroyer figure,


Well, as I said, Varda made every single star in the universe, and Melkor is mightier than she. So yes, he well surpasses, or did surpass before his descent into Arda, the figure of a Star Destroyer. But even thereafter, one must remember, he is still immortal. No amount of firepower can destroy him, just as there is no way to kill the Elves within the bounds of the world. They die, their spirits are gathered in the Halls of Mandos in the West, but they may at whiles return reincarnate, like Glorfindel, the Elf at the Ford (he died in the first age whilst killing a Balrog.) So blast an Elf with a nuclear weapon, their spirits still linger. How much mightier are the Valar. In fact, they had the power to fully remove Valinor from an attainable place. The world was once flat, the straight path that now is bent. Going straight brings one to Valinor, but it is not a place one can find without the Powers wishing it to be. Thus they have might over and beyond Lavos in that regard, and equalling that of the Time Devourer. Considering that Serge can destroy the things, whereas no mortal can kill one of the Valar (save for Turin killing Melkor at the end of days... but he is counted amongst the Maiar or maybe even Valar in that account), they have greater strength than Lavos. For is even Melkor killed in defeat at the end of the First Age? No! He is only cast out! In fact, the only reason they have temporal weakness at all is because they chose, for love of Elves and Men, to enter into the world. It was not a forced thing for them, but a choice. But they weren't constrained by time, and existed in power far mightier than the Time Devourer was, for they stood by Eru, the One, who had the power to make the Void not Void with the Flame Imperishable.

Quote from: Hadriel

he'd have a hell of a time beating Lavos, because of the 100 TT blast figure for Chixulub; a Star Destroyer's heavy turbolaser cannons puke out 100 TT per shot (a figure derived from the Imperial Base Delta Zero operation, a horrendous war crime surpassed in sheer magnitude only by a Death Star strike), and Lavos survived that without so much as a scratch.  It was implied in Chrono Cross that given enough time Lavos could have absorbed enough energy to devour the universe, and then he would have basically been a God.  


No. That is his folly and arrogance, to think that such a minor act could make him god. Power, dominion, that does not define God alone. For Lavos still had a beginning, and as such, can never be God, who had none. But as far as the power goes... I am confident that the Valar, save Melkor who later foolishly bound himself to the confines of his dark lord form, could survive a Star Destroyer blast. Energy calculations... that sort of thing is meaningless when you speak of angels and archangels!

Quote from: Hadriel

I suppose the main connection between Christ and Crono here is not any kind of messianic belief, but the fact that understanding is dispensed through their actions to the rest of humankind.  Jesus said that he brought a new understanding of the Mosaic Law, instead of just destroying it altogether.  Oddly enough (or perhaps expectedly, depending on your point of view) that's how science and understanding in general grows; not by revolution but by evolution.  Even Einstein's "revolutionary" theory of special relativity was based upon James Clerk Maxwell's electromagnetism, which though a landmark was not revolutionary in and of itself.  All the old laws of physics didn't just suddenly stop working when Einstein published his paper.


Not at all. Jesus did not bring a new understanding, he fulfilled what always was there. There is a distinction, and that is the Christian belief.

Quote from: Hadriel

Feanor as a guy...hmm...I actually have a bit of a history with the name.  There was this chick sophomore year who was as much of a Lord of the Rings fanatic as Daniel is, and just as pagan as he is Christian.  Don't ask me how that happened; I still haven't figured it out.  I can remember wanting to nail her mightily, but that never panned out and she moved to Oklahoma to hang out with ZeaLitY and Co.  Anyway, her name was Rachel, but everyone called her Fay.  The reasons for that were twofold; one was for the classical name for faeries, since everyone in the class agreed that faeries were hawt.  (The class was chemistry and the teacher was one of the reasons I almost got turned off of physics; we used to talk about witchcraft just to piss her off.)  The other reason was for Feanor, since she loved Lord of the Rings.  She inspired me to take my own insignia, which is something akin to a distorted symbol of Xel'lo'tath, as well as to do a lot of other things that guys do when they're by themselves with a dirty magazine.  (Yeah, yeah, I'm tactless, you can put your jaws back in place now.)


Well, I've never heard Fëanor called a Fay, I think 'gnome' would be a more technical term, as that is a debasement of the word Nom, or wisdom, in Noldorin. Luthien, however, she was called Luthien the Fay. But yes, Fëanor was a guy. He was, in fact, the greatest of all Elves. But his own will and fiery spirit (which is the meaning of his name, 'spirit of fire') led to his death. The second greatest of the Elves... well, she doesn't die. This is Galadriel.
Quote from: Hadriel

One cannot justify an omnipotent God in the Christian sense of the word to coexist with free will. So, in other words, no; under our knowledge of philosophy thus far, it is impossible to justify free will and divine foreknowledge existing together, but divine foreknowledge is not the same thing as fate. Perhaps this is one of the changes made to an ideal universe?

The choice offered by Christianity is essentially this: Believe this and you'll go to heaven. Don't believe it and you burn in hell, but it's still your choice. That's like putting someone at gunpoint and saying you can give me all your money or you can die, but it's still your choice. This is the viewpoint taken by the literalist faction of Christianity, anyway; I say it can't be justified because no solution offered has satisfied me, which renders it a matter of faith. I once thought about a framework similar to the Chrono series, in that God knows all possible timelines, but if he doesn't know what you will choose he isn't omniscient. The fact is the guy with the gun has the authority, and he's going to get your money one way or the other.

Using this train of logic, vehement atheists often portray God as a sadistic monster; a monster much like Lavos, actually. This is the primary line of thought used to refute Pascal's wager. Chrono on the other hand extoles the virtue of free will, and argues that victory against Lavos IS a human action, seeing as the Entity is made out to be hypocritical and selfish in Chrono Cross. Even though the Entity has a hand in Lavos' destruction, it didn't directly attack the beast. It took humans who were strong and courageous enough to decide to do something about it for Lavos to be destroyed; all Crono had to do to thwart the Entity's attempt at fate was to decide not to fight Lavos. If atheists are correct in their logic of an evil God, he will be a virtual Lavos clone.


Actually, you can justify it. If God knows the outcome, but allows the choice, the choice remains free, even if to the eyes of God it is fated. You did not exactly make a striking argument in that paragraph: you yourself said that divine foreknowledge is not the same as fate. Now, since foreknowledge does not actually determine or dominate a choice, it can still be seen as free will. However, since God does guide things, at least certain things must be set up to His will, and thus no, we do not have free will... and I'm just content with that. To our minds, it seems as though we do, so the illusion does fine, so long as I remember that I'm accountable to a higher power.

But you bring up a good point in the second paragraph, which leads me to this comment: in matters of salvation, there is truly no choice or free will. There is no middle ground, and if you believe the Bible, you cannot say otherwise. If you are not for me, you are against me. That is what Jesus says. You cannot do things your own way and expect to be save based on some strange merit: you must do things God's way. I take no middle ground on this, and all the theology I have ever learned from my father, and he is indeed knowledgeable in this field through many years of study, keep me fast in it. There is no personal way to God. Believe and be saved, refuse and be damned. It's an offer open to everyone, and you cannot accept it, for it is a gift. One can only reject. Really, I have no wish to sound preachy, and I'm no literalist in Old Testament interpretation, but I am confessional, and our sort holds fast and adamant to faith in all things, and hold it to be something above and beyond feeling and personal whims, and disavow he existance of a personal Jesus. He is a great Prince who stands as mediator before the judgement seat of a terrible and almighty God, and begs pardon for our sins. Good deeds do not avail one here. Good people go to hell. One cannot call it unfair, because that would be arrogance. 'Let all mortal flesh keep silence, and with fear and trembling stand. Ponder nothing earthly minded, for with blessing in his hand, Christ our God to earth decending, comes our homage to demand'; this is one of my favourite hymns: sombre, serious, and respectful.
Looking back... man am I adamant, eh? It's not my place to condemn anyone, so I don't wish to do that, I just take my faith as something not to be trifled with, and to not stray from based on the whims of culture. Contrary to outward appearance, it actually gives on a very joyful outlook on the world.



Anyway, two last comments, and I hope them to be last: it really is meaningless to bring in technological points into something that, by all reason, is either magical or angelic. So I don't think power calculations really have much bearing on anything in so far as Lord of the Rings goes. What you have to remember in it all is that Tolkien meant it as a near copy of his own belief in the Roman Catholic angeology. Now, I'm Lutheran, so I don't ascribe to that whole formal ordering of things, but if you do believe in angels as the messengers and stewards of God in this world, take what Tolkien wrote to be a treatise on his beliefs of that. What he wrote, after all, was still grounded in what he firmly believed to be the truth of the world. So the clearest way to speak of the power of the Valar is to say they have the same presence and power as angels do in our world. Now, consider that.

The second thing is... what the hell are we doing talking about this? I know, I know, it is largely my fault, but let us steer this back. I was maintainting my stance on the subject of the representation of hell and Lavos and, as I think everyone now knows and understands it, I can let it rest, and I can let you and ZeaLitY do what you will with it: it's always meant only as suggestions, anyway, and if you use any bit of it well, that's nice. So... what's the next topic?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 10:28:47 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
So... what's the next topic?


Um...  Schala?  :roll:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 10:39:19 pm
I guess the whole discussion was trying to get philosophical perspective on Lavos.  And if you'll remember, I'm a bad excuse for a Christian.  In fact, I'm basically agnostic, but I consider atheism a largely untenable point of view due to the mere existence of abstract philosophical ideas, none of which were necessarily religious in origin.  Oh yeah, and I think Jesus was 1337.

Varda made every star in the sky, you say?  Whoo...now that's power.  They say Sith Lords and ancient Jedi could rip the cores out of stars; the Death Star could probably blow one up, too, but jeez.  My idea of Lavos here post-apotheosis (or in actual Chrono canon, post-release-of-version-2.0) would have the power to make every star in the sky, but does that really qualify someone for being a god?  For practical purposes it does, but what separates a normal sentient from a God, who is presumably sentient and decides what's moral and what's not?  Lavos, as he represents staunch, unfeeling Darwinism and oppression, could decide in his new universe that there are no rules.  And since he'd be the most powerful being in the universe, nobody'd argue with him.  This situation is actually a situation much like the evil God thing.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 10:46:37 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
They say Sith Lords and ancient Jedi could rip the cores out of stars; the Death Star could probably blow one up, too, but jeez.  My idea of Lavos here post-apotheosis (or in actual Chrono canon, post-release-of-version-2.0) would have the power to make every star in the sky, but does that really qualify someone for being a god?  For practical purposes it does, but what separates a normal sentient from a God, who is presumably sentient and decides what's moral and what's not?  Lavos, as he represents staunch, unfeeling Darwinism and oppression, could decide in his new universe that there are no rules.  And since he'd be the most powerful being in the universe, nobody'd argue with him.  This situation is actually a situation much like the evil God thing.


Alright, sorry for making a reply on the Star Wars thing, but this is just a comment, no argument... where does it say that? Because I've always thought that something like that would be neat. That is what I like about Star Wars, and why I find it such good fantasy: the ancient is more powerful than the new. The ancient Jedi and Sith, capable of such things? That would be a grand battle. Once again, Star Wars comes through with its ancient feel. I absolutely loved it when Kreia in KOTORII speaks of the ancient sword-masters as being far greater than those of the current times. It just gives me the chills. The ancient time of heroes... I like Tolkein better, but there's no denying the grandeur of Star Wars.

Anyway, I suppose I just have to realize that the Chrono universe is not, and never will be, Christian, despite what I might like. Oh, well, that's why I stopped writing fanfiction, and begain writing my own things...

So, Jack-a-Roonie said Schala is the new discussion? What aspect of her?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 10:52:16 pm
I don't usually like the concept of the ancient being more powerful than the new, because I'm down with technological progress and all that; I suppose this is why I'm a fan of the New Jedi Order, when Luke demonstrates some of these "ancient Jedi" caliber skills.  At one point he moves one of the Yuuzhan Vong singularities generated by a capital-grade dovin basal onto the ship it came from, thus consuming it; he didn't even use his full power.  Kyp Durron was the only other Jedi that managed to, and he almost killed himself in the attempt.  In The Unifying Force, Luke kills several thousand Yuuzhan Vong warriors and several specialized Jedi-slayers engineered by the Yuuzhan Vong.  No denying it: Skywalkers pwn.

The Tales of the Jedi comics contain information on the wacked-out powers of the ancient Jedi and Sith.

If it makes you feel any better, even though Chrono may not be Christian, it's part of that universe both morally and historically, just as it's part of the roots of our current civilization in real life.  For better or worse, it's there, and it probably isn't going away anytime soon.

Anyway, to Schala...I'd recommend doing as Jake said before we got caught up in a moral debate; change one of the tiles that no one uses to be "la."
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 10:53:00 pm
I was just playing around... *shrug*  We all know I'm obsessed with her, so I thought I'd play on the opportunity to bring her up. :o

And yeah, I suggested replacing the tile for the Infinity sign.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 10:54:11 pm
A'ight, next topic: What happens in the El Nido scenario?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 26, 2005, 10:55:53 pm
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
So... what's the next topic?


Um...  Schala?  :roll:


Sounds good to me.  :D  Actually, I found the preceding philosophical discussion to be rather interesting, but it made me a little reluctant to post, 'cause... I, like, didn't want to interrupt!

Anyway, getting back to Crimson Echoes, I have a question regarding Atropos.  There was a suggestion early on that Atropos be, perahps, temporarily playable.  It has also been noted that Robo has very little to do in the story as-is.

Have you guys considered swapping out Robo for Atropos altogether?  I think it might be cool if Robo stuck around at Chronopolis, as Belthasar's "new Nu," as it were.  We already know from Cross that Prometheus becomes central to Belthasar's designs, so why not plant the seeds here?

Of course, there is the problem of "Atropos" being a whopping SEVEN CHARACTERS LONG!  :lol:

Oh, and about nixing an existing character in the Chrono font in favor of combined letters.  I think it's a good idea if there are blank spots in the font, but if existing characters must be removed (like the infinity symbol), doesn't that get away from the idea of Temporal Flux being an engine by which one can create an ideal Trigger remake?  Of course, one could argue that expanding the menus is equally, ummm, blasphemous (!?), but I think the idea of expanding Trigger's palette is preferable to that of simply altering it, or omitting parts of it.

Anyway.  To be honest, I feel a little presumptuous saying anything about this.  You all have done such a wonderful job.  It's clear that you really don't need anyone else's help.  I hope my remarks are only taken for what the are -- random comments from an interested outsider.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 26, 2005, 11:00:30 pm
As soon as we say we don't need anyone else's help, we'll all fall flat on our faces. :?

I'd agree about the Infinity symbol, but it's just that when comparing (1) extend the font by 1 tile for however long that may take (it could take a *WHILE*) or (2) replace a symbol that is rarely, if ever, used.  Infinity fits the bill there, as it's only used once (End Of Time), and it's not even necessary.  In fact from what I've read, I don't think the End Of Time will even be accessible anymore, now that 2302 AD serves as the home base.  Just like no one really WANTED to get rid of Ayla, Infinity might be the best one to ditch if we have to pick one.

Atropos...hmm...  We could have Marle mangle Atropos' name a few times, then she could get frustrated and say "Crono, let's give her a SHORTER name!" ;)  Other than that, who knows...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 11:00:49 pm
@OdF: Hey, you're a Chrono oldbie; you deserve input on this.  There's got to be some sort of a Prometheus sidequest that finishes fleshing out the line of thought begun in CT and added onto in CE.  Atropos is wounded early on in the game, and is unable to fight well to begin with.  Then, during the break, Robo kills a lot of humans and talks philosophically with Lucca.  What would be the logical final piece of that that would make him agree, in the ending, to become a rebellious circuit?  Just as Lavos asks "What is a god?" Robo asks "What makes a man?"
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 11:08:22 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
@OdF: Hey, you're a Chrono oldbie; you deserve input on this.  There's got to be some sort of a Prometheus sidequest that finishes fleshing out the line of thought begun in CT and added onto in CE.  Atropos is wounded early on in the game, and is unable to fight well to begin with.  Then, during the break, Robo kills a lot of humans and talks philosophically with Lucca.  What would be the logical final piece of that that would make him agree, in the ending, to become a rebellious circuit?  Just as Lavos asks "What is a god?" Robo asks "What makes a man?"


Alright, I may know more of theology than you - I think - but I bet you know more philosophy. If such a question is asked by him, you should tie in what you know of philosophers that have adressed the question.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 26, 2005, 11:10:35 pm
Daniel, I have a request. I need a wise saying in Latin, if you can suffice, or another language (translated into English characters), that says something about Zeal. I'm going to make that inscription on the Sealed Pyramid base able to be read. The actual text it needs to display is "heaven lies below." You can rearrange that anyway you like as long as the basic meaning is preserved.

It's talking about the rest of the North Palace, which in the Prerelease lay below the Sealed Pyramid. We might restore that in CE.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 26, 2005, 11:15:58 pm
@Daniel: Theology's a part of philosophy, and it's also a part of the Chrono story at least to an extent; that's why we need your input.  That and all the cool weapon drawings.  How are the Arco Iris and Ara Dei sheath coming?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 26, 2005, 11:53:21 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Daniel, I have a request. I need a wise saying in Latin, if you can suffice, or another language (translated into English characters), that says something about Zeal. I'm going to make that inscription on the Sealed Pyramid base able to be read. The actual text it needs to display is "heaven lies below." You can rearrange that anyway you like as long as the basic meaning is preserved.

It's talking about the rest of the North Palace, which in the Prerelease lay below the Sealed Pyramid. We might restore that in CE.


As I've said, I really don't know much Greek and Latin. What I do know is where to find it. So to keep from seeming over-smart always giving out these words and the like, this site called Perseus, which is a scholarly compilation of various lexicons, has English to Greek and Latin translators.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_PersInfo.html

I'll look there right now, but just so you know, for future reference, I don't know any of this off the top of my head. Wait... I sort of know heaven, and I do know 'below' in Latin. Cerulean comes from 'heaven', and sub is below. I'm not sure if the Latin would use the word 'lies' in that case, though. Maybe just 'is', ie. est?

Alright, here we go. Heaven in nomnative case is 'caelestis' - and in Greek, man I should have known this, it is ouranios. I know that below is 'sub'. So that just leaves 'lies'.

Hmmm... maybe I'm thinking wrong here, but I don't know if the Latin needs a 'lies'. Moreover, since there is not quite the same rigid sentence ordering as we have, things might get confusing. 'Est' means 'is', so one maybe could say Caelestis est sub, though on second thought that looks more like Heaven is something that is below.

Honestly, I think in Latin, it may just be 'Caelestis Sub'. You'll want a second opinion on that, but that's my guess. The only problem would be because I'm uncertain of how the word order is done, if things might be translated as 'under heaven' rather than 'heaven under [this]'.

Now, the Greek. This will be harder, as I don't know the grammar at all. Hmmm... well, kata is 'downwards', I know that much. So perhaps 'heaven downwards' is an acceptable Greek version of that, that could be translated as what you wish. Say 'Ouranios Kata' ... well, it seems that 'hup' is used in a lot of compounds for things being under, either caverns underneath, or silver underneath, or whatever,

Thus 'Hupouranios' may well say all of that in a single word. Or, maybe, 'Ouranios Hupapuramis', or Heaven Under the Pyramid.

So, that's about it. Oh, and the weapons... didn't draw any yesterday. I was planning on doing that today yet, though. Anything specifically you want for it?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 27, 2005, 12:38:24 am
I suppose not; Lucca's weapon can be a simple flintlock gun.

I suppose I'll opt for the Greek, as it seems very interesting. I'm sure we'll leave some players scratching their heads at that, which might just stimulate some discussion.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 27, 2005, 02:26:51 am
The one word or the two? I recommend the two.

And just looking at it... man have I been a fool. Of course! 'Under' in Greek is hupo: we spell it hypo usually, as in hypodermic. It's a bad Anglisization, though, which is why I recommend not using it. You see, the letter we spell as 'y' is actually an upsilon, a distinct u. Thus cyclops was in origin Kuklops, pronounced roughly Ku-klops (though the u is not like ours, more like the higher French or German umlaudt u) Anyway, though, just keep it as the u. It looks different from the word hypo (just like pyramid has a u, too), and is more accurate.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 27, 2005, 10:16:59 am
Latin > Greek :(
Caelestis is an Adj. meaning heavenly, not heaven (if you just has 'Caelestis' by itself it means 'Heavenly man/person', or as http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ puts it, a dweller in heaven)
Caelum is the world I know for heaven because it also means sky, but there're others that I think are used less commonly
Latito means to lie hidden, which might work... there's also cubo for lying in down or in bed, which also might work

So, it'd be: Caelum sub latitat/cubat.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 27, 2005, 01:18:32 pm
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
Latin > Greek :(
Caelestis is an Adj. meaning heavenly, not heaven (if you just has 'Caelestis' by itself it means 'Heavenly man/person', or as http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ puts it, a dweller in heaven)
Caelum is the world I know for heaven because it also means sky, but there're others that I think are used less commonly
Latito means to lie hidden, which might work... there's also cubo for lying in down or in bed, which also might work

So, it'd be: Caelum sub latitat/cubat.


Of course, I made a mistake. Perseus even shows Caelestis as being heavenly, I don't know how I messed that up. Thanks for the corrects.

But, personally, I would say that Greek sounds nicer than Latin, partially because it is less familiar, and has longer words with more exotic letters. Latin has Anax, Greek Basileus. Dominus (likely the wrong ending) to Anax. And as for names... well, look at the difference in the list:

Jupiter/Jove, Juno, Minerva, Venus, Diana, Apollo, Mars, Pluto (though this IS Greek), Neptune, Saturn, Mercury, Vulcan, Bacchus (though I think this is a Greek word, too), Vesta, Ceres.

compared to this:

Zeus, Hera, Athene, Aphrodite, Artemis, Apollo, Ares, Hades, Poseidon, Kronos, Hermes, Hephaistos, Dionysus, Hestia, Demeter.

Now, which list sounds better?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 27, 2005, 08:07:02 pm
I like my latin :(
Anyway, I'm not familiar with Greek at all (I think in the second half of my senior year we'll learn Greek in Latin class), but aren't the english spellings inherently different than what they should be because of lack of Greek characters? That's my only problem with using Greek names; if we could put the phrase in using Greek letters, that'd be aweomse, but I awesome that that's out of the question...

P.S. - I assume, I don't awesome.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 27, 2005, 10:33:40 pm
On a different note, there's a fairly widely-accepted theory that states that Miguel (Leena's father) in Chrono Cross is actually Crono.  If we interpret this as true, we may want to consider integrating Wazuki (Miguel's close friend, and father of Serge) at some point.  Wazuki could perhaps be a knight captain who serves under Crono.  Anyway, just a thought that we might want to consider. :)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 27, 2005, 10:51:48 pm
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
On a different note, there's a fairly widely-accepted theory that states that Miguel (Leena's father) in Chrono Cross is actually Crono.  If we interpret this as true, we may want to consider integrating Wazuki (Miguel's close friend, and father of Serge) at some point.  Wazuki could perhaps be a knight captain who serves under Crono.  Anyway, just a thought that we might want to consider. :)


Hmmm... never heard of that. Well, I don't know if it goes amongst the accepted theories of the Compendium, and because it is based on mere assumption, and has many things that counter it (say, hair-colour, the words of the ghosts, personality), it likely is not the case, any more than Serge is Janus. However, that does not make the concept of integrating these characters wholly bad, and a foreshadowing cameo would be interesting. I suppose El Nido does not appear proper, but knowing that the Acacia Dragoons fought upon Zenan, it is likely that the islanders did as well. The Dragoons were the ruling power and military elite, and likely would have recruited from amongst the peasants for the rank-and-file troops. Miguel and Wazuki could easily be amongst these as two young soldiers in the armies of the Dragoons, perhaps upon the side of Porre.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 27, 2005, 11:07:58 pm
The only widely accepted aspect of it is that it is an interesting coincidence, but is very unlikely. There is no explicit and little implicit evidence for it, and it is merely something to say "hm" at. I would go as far as to say that little of what we've concluded is widely accepted by Chrono fans by virtue of our not being able to reach the better part of them currently.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 27, 2005, 11:29:43 pm
Well, for starters, the hair color of Miguel does match that of Crono, though his style is more "tame."  He's ludicrously powerful for being just a simple "fisherman," and how else would the guy know so much about the original Chrono Trigger/Lavos situation...unless he was there?  And they gave some pretty decent reasons as to why he'd end up there if he was Crono.

Though I can't recall all the details (though you can easily find the theory's details by searching on Google for crono/miguel), it basically states that when Porre invaded Guardia, Crono (being the prince by marriage, and heir to the throne) had to stay safe, along with his own child.  When the kingdom was essentially smashed to bits, Nadia's fate was unknown (although we can assume she would be either captured, killed, or in hiding somewhere plotting rebellion), and Crono would have to remain undercover and in disguise.  Hence the glasses (which he may have gotten from Lucca) and fishing hat, and the overall guise of a fisherman.

Also, take a good look at Leena, Miguel's daughter.  Crono's hair color, with Nadia's face...and the name, notably reminiscent of Leene, one of Nadia's ancestors.  Likely she was named after Leene, whom Nadia was very close with.  True, we don't have much CONCRETE evidence...but in all our theories on the Compendium, do we really have much that is truly concrete?

EDIT: I *DO NOT* want this to become a debate.  Take it or leave it.  That's just my reason for pushing to have Wazuki in the game as a friend of Crono's.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 27, 2005, 11:34:44 pm
Well, the mathematics we use here tends to hold up in the context of Chrono.  I'd rather not bother with Wazuki, if only because it wouldn't have much of a point.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 28, 2005, 12:09:55 am
Jake-A-Roonie:  I actually like the idea of Marle suggesting a shorter name for Atropos.  It fits.  I mean, I can't see Crono and friends referring to Robo as "Prometheus."  Not ever.  In the same vein, I think Marle especially would be uncomfortable with a name like Atropos.

Hadriel and Jake-A-Roonie:  Thanks for saying that my input is welcome.  I very much appreciate that.  :)

Hadriel:  I'm glad to hear that you already have plans for continuing the philisophical trail that Robo was set upon in Trigger.  I've been a little concerned about the lack of attention he's received so far in the discussion of Crimson Echoes.  As I say, however, you all have done an awesome job to date, and hearing you suggest that Robo's seeming omission is due only to his subquest not being developed YET is reassuring.

As for including Wazuki and Miguel in the battles of 1005 AD, I'm not sure about this.  Miguel especially does not strike me as a warrior (if left to his own, at least).  Also, since the Dragoons appear to be a very elite force, I can't see them accepting "just anybody" to fight in a major conflict, though I cede that Miguel and Wazuki would have been old enough to particpate, and Wazuki may well be the one responsible for Serge's skill with a blade.

Also, not to start a debate, but I don't get the Crono = Miguel thing at all.  Sorry.

Oh, and regarding Crono, I doubt he would ever be King of Guardia.  Guardia royalty seems to operate in much the same fashion as traditional European monarchy.  If this is the case, Nadia, as the sole heir of Guardia XXXIII, would become the new monarch--a ruling queen or queen-by-right or Queen Regnant or whatever--while her spouse, not being an heir-by-right on his own merits, could only become a Prince Consort or somesuch.  Of course, it's possible that Guardia's royalty doesn't operate in the traditional way, but it seems to be the usual "male line" type of monarchy familiar to our own history.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on July 28, 2005, 01:13:55 am
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Jake-A-Roonie:  I actually like the idea of Marle suggesting a shorter name for Atropos.  It fits.  I mean, I can't see Crono and friends referring to Robo as "Prometheus."  Not ever.  In the same vein, I think Marle especially would be uncomfortable with a name like Atropos.

Hadriel and Jake-A-Roonie:  Thanks for saying that my input is welcome.  I very much appreciate that.  :)

Hadriel:  I'm glad to hear that you already have plans for continuing the philisophical trail that Robo was set upon in Trigger.  I've been a little concerned about the lack of attention he's received so far in the discussion of Crimson Echoes.  As I say, however, you all have done an awesome job to date, and hearing you suggest that Robo's seeming omission is due only to his subquest not being developed YET is reassuring.

As for including Wazuki and Miguel in the battles of 1005 AD, I'm not sure about this.  Miguel especially does not strike me as a warrior (if left to his own, at least).  Also, since the Dragoons appear to be a very elite force, I can't see them accepting "just anybody" to fight in a major conflict, though I cede that Miguel and Wazuki would have been old enough to particpate, and Wazuki may well be the one responsible for Serge's skill with a blade.

Also, not to start a debate, but I don't get the Crono = Miguel thing at all.  Sorry.

Oh, and regarding Crono, I doubt he would ever be King of Guardia.  Guardia royalty seems to operate in much the same fashion as traditional European monarchy.  If this is the case, Nadia, as the sole heir of Guardia XXXIII, would become the new monarch--a ruling queen or queen-by-right or Queen Regnant or whatever--while her spouse, not being an heir-by-right on his own merits, could only become a Prince Consort or somesuch.  Of course, it's possible that Guardia's royalty doesn't operate in the traditional way, but it seems to be the usual "male line" type of monarchy familiar to our own history.

OdF


Actually, Miguel's look and calling of a fisherman does not really mean that he could not have been a soldier once. True, the Dragoons appear to be more elite (then again, the fisherboy Serge defeats them as he breaks into Viper manor...) I think if they went to war, they'd raise a call to arms, and recruit from the villages. If they were hot-heated young boys in that time, they could easily have joined the ranks. I'm sure there are many in history that were warriors in their youth, but mellowed later on. Socrates, after all, was a hoplite before his was a philosopher. And I remember the stories of the general that led Rome in a certain campaign (was it against the Sabines?) preferred his farm, and returned again after the troubles were over. Miguel strikes me as this sort, I think. Imagine him far younger, before family life mellowed him. I truly think they could be a cameo, perhaps as Crono and the rest just over-hear them speaking to each other of home, or joking around, in passing at one point. That's all I mean. It is not implausable by any measure, and would be a nice cameo.

But anyway, his hair colour is brownish-red, Crono's is crimson red. And the explanation for his power: FATE put him there as a guardian, and presumably gave him this power.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 28, 2005, 11:30:02 am
Ok, a question about El Nido and Porre:
Isn't the accepted theory that we're using in Crimson Echoes that Porre rose in military strength in the new timeline because of El Nido? If that's the case, they shouldn't be so militarized at the beginning of the game, because at that point El Nido still doesn't exist as much as it didn't in Chrono Trigger. However, I do think it'd be cool for the time crash to happen near the end of the game (there are going to be a bunch of sidequests like in CT, right? in that case, the time cras could happen right before the sidequests) and after that point allow El Nido to explore... However, this contradicts the storyline, seeing as we can't completely admit anything about Porre's military up until the time crash

Did anything of what I said make sense?

P.S.: Does the Chrono Break allow Sorin to time-travel? It seems like he randomly appears in different time periods without explanation...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 28, 2005, 04:57:38 pm
El Nido automatically comes into existence as soon as the killing blow to Lavos is struck, because of Chronopolis and FATE.  It just isn't relevant until later on in the storyline; El Nido isn't much of a military power.

Sorin doesn't use the Chrono Break to time travel, only to kill stuff.  He has his own Gate Key that allows time travel.  The Gate Key was given to the Black Wind program by King Zeal for use by Sorin.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 28, 2005, 04:58:54 pm
Has El Nido already been added to our world map on 1002 AD?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 28, 2005, 05:04:58 pm
The main El Nido island is only a few miles wide in diameter, so it probably wouldn't show up on the map.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 28, 2005, 05:26:49 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
The main El Nido island is only a few miles wide in diameter, so it probably wouldn't show up on the map.


I thought you get to go there? Unless, of course, it's accessible but not from the World Map.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on July 28, 2005, 05:30:28 pm
Yeah.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 28, 2005, 05:34:22 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Yeah.


Alright, then. Pity El-Nido's small, but better then CT, in a way. Serge can come across in a couple hour's time. It would take Crono days, nay, possibly even weeks to cross that wretched continent.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 28, 2005, 06:12:03 pm
Hadriel: Ok, I was about to get really angry and call you stupid and stuff until I realized that Chronopolis in CE is 2301 and not 2400... sorry about that
How does Lavos pull Chronopolis into the past? I thought it had something to do with the flame, and since, in accordance with CE, the flame can't do anything without Zeal or Serge, so Zeal had to do it... I think it'd make sense if the events of CE made Zeal do it...
However, now that I think about it, doesn't Zeal get erased from time (which would completely alter everything and possibly even mean Crono's planet never being possible for evolution, but that's besides the point) by the end of the game? So how would the flame ever be able to pull back Chronopolis? There'd have to have been ANOTHER arbiter, since Zeal eventually never exists, and Serge results from the flame's actions...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 28, 2005, 09:00:59 pm
Zeal?  You mean King Zeal or Zeal the nation?  Neither one is erased from time.  King Zeal is killed physically in accordance with Time Error; he's still born, and the team's interference allows him to live, and they just kill him physically at the end, so his demise is much like that of Lavos, who was still around on Earth prior to 1999.

As you said, the Flame can't do anything of its own accord without an Arbiter, but seeing as Lavos was physically present from 65MBC all the way to 1999 AD, it's quite easy for his physical form to detect the changes in the timeline, whether via his own knowledge or via information transmitted back to him by the Flame, and create a giant time portal to drag Chronopolis back.  CC says that the awakening Lavos in 12kBC pulled the Flame and Chronopolis back through time to it once the Flame's lock was released.  The reason El Nido isn't in 12kBC is probably because the Chronopolis staff in 2400 AD interfered with the time transport, resulting in Chronopolis landing in 7600 BC instead of 12kBC; close, but no cigar.  Once the planet summoned Dinopolis out of the Tesseract, Lavos' plan to get the Flame back could go into effect.

I've developed a couple of concerns after discussing Atlas Shrugged with my dad and playing FFVI.  Now maybe I was getting tired after playing it until 4 AM in the latter case, but I found I didn't want to play the game so much as hear how the rest of the story played out.  A game's a game for a reason; you play it.  For this, we need to start working on some new monsters.  A LOT of new monsters.  

The story concern is mainly for the dialogue.  We can have the most kickass story in the universe planned out, but if the dialogue sucks the story's going to suck.  While we already have highly capable people working on it, there should be as little of philosophy as possible in the dialogue itself, save for the occasional bit by Janus or during really tragic/emotional moments, like after the slaughter at Dorino or during the break; the lives and actions of the characters should communicate it.  Rather, that should lend itself to character development; we don't want the game to end up like Metal Gear Solid 2 where you get 20 hours of Hideo Kojima monologuing about the epistemology of Totino's pizza rolls in lieu of actual gameplay and character development.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 28, 2005, 10:12:19 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I've developed a couple of concerns after discussing Atlas Shrugged with my dad and playing FFVI.

OMG Coincidence attack! I'm reading The Fountainhead right now.. grr; it's taken me a while because I only really have time to read it going to and coming home from my computer graphics course in philly on the train, and I was actually hoping to read more of it in a couple minutes

Anyway, I was talking about King Zeal... hmm, I wonder where I got the implication that he was erased from time... I guess it just seemed like the ideal ending; ultimate bady gets ultimately beaten..

I know that Chrono Trigger completely contradicts a ton of things (like time-traveling into 600AD, talking to someone, then going back to 1000AD and having nothing changed), but I think the whole 'erase from time' thing contradicts a lot more... I'm going to accept that a person's mass can be gone entirely forever, because, as I'm assuming there's an infinite amount of mass/energy, infinity - 1 is still infinity... However, if the atoms that make up Sorin were entirely gone, certain bodies (planets, stars, or w/e) in space would have less mass, and would eventually collide with less impact, and that can lead to a VERY big change in time, like the earth not forming, or not being in the right position to grow life that could eventually grow into humanity

There should be some justification for this, like the Chrono Break does something to prevent the person's birth, or abducts the person's mother before giving birth... I dunno, I think the prevention of birth makes the most sense without contradictions, but it doesn't sound as amazing to have a contraption that goes back in time, makes a minor change that eventually leads to someone's not being born, and then comes back... The abduction thing seems cool to me, but the technicalities mess it up, like would the person be abducted at birth, would his/her mother be abducted?

I guess we could just leave it at 'erases the person from time', but I think that's the easy way out
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 28, 2005, 11:10:08 pm
Sorin is made of organic material; those atoms don't just come into being.  The atoms of cells gain energy via the consumption of nutrients; once a cell has gained enough, mitosis occurs.  The rate of generation of new cells is inversely proportional to the organism's mass.  Think of it this way; if a baby ate a 50-pound pizza, he'd gain quite a bit of mass, but if Lavos ate a 50-pound pizza the difference in mass would be barely noticeable.

In simpler terms, the mass/energy that comprised Sorin is still there after he's been erased, it's just in the form of blood, pizza, and ice cream.  The only thing absent is his soul, and spirit energy demonstrably does not adhere to Conservation of Energy; as you said, infinity - 1 is still infinity.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shinrin on July 29, 2005, 12:23:52 am
Quote from: Hadriel
Sorin is made of organic material; those atoms don't just come into being.  The atoms of cells gain energy via the consumption of nutrients; once a cell has gained enough, mitosis occurs.  The rate of generation of new cells is inversely proportional to the organism's mass.  Think of it this way; if a baby ate a 50-pound pizza, he'd gain quite a bit of mass, but if Lavos ate a 50-pound pizza the difference in mass would be barely noticeable.

In simpler terms, the mass/energy that comprised Sorin is still there after he's been erased, it's just in the form of blood, pizza, and ice cream.  The only thing absent is his soul, and spirit energy demonstrably does not adhere to Conservation of Energy; as you said, infinity - 1 is still infinity.


a baby eating a 50 pound pizza.. i could imagne that. o.o now lavos needs a 10 ton pizza to get full. 50 pounds would be like a m & m to him. so i see your point.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 29, 2005, 11:59:12 am
I guess I understand now; I forgot that humans grow


Ok, I just thought of this in a reply to one of the threads in the Time, Space, bla bla forum:

"It really doesn't matter if Robo exists in the new timeline or not. When Robo goes into the portal to 2400AD he'll appear there whether he's the sole Robo or not. However, if my theory about portals is correct (that a portal from 1000 to 2400 goes forward 1400 years, so the longer you spend at 1000 the later you end up in 24000) and Time Bastard Theory is true, Robo will appear in 2400 AFTER he was taken back in time originally by Crono and co., and so even if a Robo existed in the new timeline, Time Bastard would've made him disappear by then... "

This issue should come up with Atropos. If Robo does exist in the new future and she did have a relationship with him, she should have stories about how he randomly disappeared into a portal (if we're assuming time bastard as true), and then suddenly appeared a day or so later (but with a totally different personality)...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 30, 2005, 11:14:29 pm
I've got some good news and some bad news from me-land.

Good news: I've worked out a bunch of stuff, and the main plot is nearly finished.

Bad news: I'm a poor communicator and thus I may not have related my ideas clearly earlier.

I'll post my version of the Word file containing the complete plot to CE when I think I've worked out enough stuff to review in full.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 30, 2005, 11:49:36 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I'll post my version of the Word file containing the complete plot to CE when I think I've worked out enough stuff to review in full.


Please do.  I'll bet I speak for everyone when I say I would very much enjoy a clear, concise compilation of all the plot-related stuff that's been released so far.  Seriously, the whole story of CE is just dynamite.

And you aren't a poor communicator!

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 31, 2005, 01:29:51 am
OK, here's the unified story post.  Unfortunately, the post won't fit the whole thing, so it has to come in 2 parts.  The first part contains everything from the beginning to the breaking point.

I made a few storyline changes of my own accord in here in order to get stuff to fit.  Take a look, see what you think, and offer any objections, death threats, or accusations of me having a swollen head that you will, and we'll see what we can do about it.  Here's a list of the changes, which really aren't that numerous:

~Renault, Roget, and Luther now inhabit 602 A.D. with Glenn instead of 1002 A.D.  But oh well; every game needs its Singing Mountain, I suppose.
~A few details of Sorin's ultimate fate have been changed; he still dies, but he is no longer banished to the Tesseract.  Consequently, Lavos does not consume him; he does find redemption on the deathbed, after a fashion anyway.
~Belthasar and the party now have a short discussion when they first meet him about how awkward it is to only find out about someone's role in saving you after they've already done it.

--------------------------------------------

Starting Characters: All characters begin at level 65 with associated dual and triple techs.  This is intended to give the player a feel for the game’s differences from CT with the relative reassurance of controlling an insanely powerful group of chosen ones, as well as to help the plot.  At a certain point, Crono, Marle, and Lucca will be stripped of most of their power, allowing for the required growth element without which a lot of RPGs would be pointless.

Crono – Heaven

Equipment             
Weapon – Rainbow Sword                                   
Armor – Moon Armor   
Headgear – Safe Helm
Accessory – Power Seal   

Techs
Cyclone
Spincut
Lightning
Lightning 2
Luminaire

Marle – Cold

Equipment               
Weapon - Valkerye            
Armor – Prism Dress            
Headgear – Prism Helm            
Accessory – Pendant            

Techs
Aura
Charm
Ice
Ice 2
Quantum State (massive HP drain, Marle takes 20%)

Lucca - Fire

Equipment               
Weapon – WonderShot         
Armor – Prism Dress            
Headgear – Prism Helm         
Accessory – Green Dream   

Techs
Hypno Wave
Sniper Shot
Fire
Fire 2
Flare                     
   
Scenario 1 – Prologue: Council of Fate

The year is 1002 A.D. Crono and Marle are married, though they're still innocent and mostly the same. Life hasn't changed much; things are peaceful. Marle wakes Crono up in the expanded house, and informs them that he, as chief knight, must attend a diplomatic meeting between King Guardia and two Porre diplomats. Crono must first run some errands.  Lucca arrives at the house after he’s finished with them, and they run off to Guardia Castle.  At the meeting, one of the Porre servants begins to feel sick and excuses himself, followed by his friend. The Trio is suspicious, and Crono gets up and follows them alone. When he does, he finds that their suspicions were correct - the man is not ill at all, but rather is plotting against Guardia, specifically to kill the representative if 2 out of 3 conditions were not met, but one of the agents has compunctions against killing King Guardia, having preferred to "ice the Chancellor."  The Trio overhears this and jumps out from hiding and confronts them.  Crono easily dispatches one of them.  The other one, however, is much more slippery – he can transform into an uber ninja and kill stuff.  He flees very quickly, and the Trio runs after him toward Zenan Bridge, where a fight with him takes place.  He runs away after a few thousand damage has been dealt to him, spewing a bunch of stuff about purpose and how it's his destiny to triumph over them.  He then runs off toward the Denadoro Mountains, where Crono and company follow.  Once they get there, the agent is nowhere to be found, but Porre begins shelling the mountain with napalm, an invention Lucca hasn't even released yet, and they retreat to the Masamune cave. Its remaining magical aura will allow Lucca to use an incomplete Time Egg to free the party from their present situation.  Masa and Mune exchange some dialogue with each other, before a massive Gate much like the one in Magus' Castle in CT appears to the Manoria Cathedral theme and swallows the party whole, mere seconds before the cave collapses.

Cut to Magus in 11,998 B.C…

Characters Obtained: Characters are at some much lower level now.

Crono – Heaven

Equipment             
Weapon – future-ish sword                                   
Armor – Cammo
Headgear – Cammo Helm
Accessory – Power Glove   

Techs
Cyclone
Lightning

Marle – Cold

Equipment               
Weapon - Fail-Not            
Armor – Kevlar Suit            
Headgear – Uh, something...            
Accessory – Pendant            

Techs
Aura
Ice

Lucca - Fire

Equipment               
Weapon – Magnum         
Armor – Taban Suit            
Headgear – Lode Helm         
Accessory – Green Dream   

Techs
Hypno Wave
Fire                  

Scenario 2 – The New Future

Like I was saying before the mandatory character power descriptions so rudely interrupted, cut to 11,998 B.C.  Magus is stumbling along a high mountain range, in a fierce blizzard. He recalls the words of the Elder of the Last Village..."Indeed, the sea level has dropped, and a new mountain range has emerged on the horizon. However, it is very dangerous, as while the rest of the world is warming, these mountains still suffer terrible weather." Magus coughs a few times, and finally falls to the icy ground, cursing and calling for Schala before he finally faints.  No new characters are obtained at this point.

Cut back to Crono, Marle, and Lucca…in 2302 A.D.  The Time Egg apparently threw them into the new Lavos-free future to escape Porre’s bombardment.  They wake up in a medical facility, being tended to by a medical droid.  Eventually they are released and are told to report to the central command chamber, where they find none other than Belthasar.  They're happy to see him, and he's confused, but then he figures that he must have been in a much worse state in the original timeline, but thanks to them he's not, so he thanks them heartily anyway!  This Belthasar is a far cry from the deranged Belthasar of the original game’s 2300 A.D.  In fact, he’s quite happy with what he’s built – thanks to government funding, he’s been able to construct an entire city in the middle of the ocean.  This is known as Chronopolis, the Fortress of Time.  It is a military research station that was named for two reasons: one, to signify the eternal peace Belthasar dreams of, and two, to have a double meaning at the fact that Belthasar is in fact doing research on time and temporal mechanics rather than conventional military research, as the public at large believes.  If they knew the truth about what Belthasar was building, even with his highly respected status, the governments of the world never would have supplied the funds.  Hence, Belthasar believes that it would not be a good idea for the Trio to leave Chronopolis.  Belthasar just happened to be testing his Temporal Catch machine at the time that Crono, Marle, and Lucca appeared – a perfect receiver for their trip through time.  However, their best weapons and equipment have curiously been lost in the time distortion – even their magical powers have ebbed back to their most basic levels.  They are given free run of the facility for a short while in Belthasar’s effort to help them recover.  Chronopolis contains many rooms – the Medical Facility, the Temporal Catch, the Chrono Compendium, the Dispatch Chamber (in which lies a convenient Save Point), the Observatory, the Reactor Core, the Auxiliary Power Station, the Training Room, the Armory (in which Melchior hangs out later), the Hangar, the Research Lab, the Secondary Research Lab, and the Concourse, in which Nadia’s Bell is proudly displayed.  Due to Belthasar’s warnings of the politics of the time, that is all of 2302 A.D. that is available for the player to access, and so the World Map display shows a map of Chronopolis.

Robo now works in Chronopolis, as well, alongside Atropos.  She is Belthasar’s top assistant, while Robo has two functions.  In addition to aiding in Belthasar’s research, he also commands the mostly robotic Chronopolis Defense Force as the Chief of Security.  The droids in the facility act autonomously but are capable of being overridden at any time by a master control code accessible only to Atropos, Robo, or Belthasar.  Mother Brain also exists in the facility, and oversees the fortress’s internal network and information handling.  The party can visit with all these characters and resupply their weapons at Chronopolis.  Until then, the party simply takes what they’re offered.  When they’re finished talking to Robo, they are summoned to the observatory, which functions as the central command for Chronopolis.  They immediately ask Belthasar how the rest of the situation with Porre in their time goes.  Belthasar assures them that it will all pan out, and that this was but an unfortunate accident.  Though his Dispatch Chamber is not quite finished, he tells them that it will afford them a one-way trip back to 1002 A.D.  They take the trip, only to find Guardia under attack.  Oops.  

Scenario 3 – Darkness Ascendant

The Porre navy has completely forgone Zenan Bridge and is launching an attack on the kingdom.  They have taken control of Truce, and are pushing across the continent toward the castle.  The Trio decides that getting rid of their forward base will drive them back for now, and Truce is said base, so that gives the Trio a home turf advantage.  They go there and attempts to repel the attackers via stealth (read: stealing Porre uniforms and weapons), to a remix of the Ocean Palace theme.  Eventually, after they’ve successfully obtained a copy of the enemy’s battle plan and killed half the base, they use the Porre communications HQ at the base to send a telegraph to the Chancellor and inform him and the King of their little rogue squadron’s operations, provoking them to send an army down on Truce.  As the Guardian army approaches, the Trio decides to go kill the offending general leading the attack, a guy named General Montcrief, who has no moral fiber whatsoever.  William Ishito, who is also serving in the attack under Montcrief’s command, mutters something about it being regrettable that it came to this, and then he leaves CM&L to fight Montcrief’s tank.  When the tank is defeated, Montcrief yells out “Sorin!” and the assassin appears.  Montcrief directs him to kill the party before the tank explodes and kills him.  In obedience to Montcrief’s order, Sorin arms himself.  The party enters battle, but even as it begins Sorin executes a Dragon Strike, his own more powerful version of Crono and Ayla’s Falcon Hit dual Tech.  It instantly fells Crono, Marle, and Lucca.  However, as soon as this occurs, the surroundings begin distorting, and the screen goes white.  When the white glare ceases, the Trio is perfectly all right and Sorin is nowhere in sight.  A quick “did I miss something?” quip from Lucca serves as the prelude to a much larger dilemma.  Either Sorin was connected to them in some way, or he has caused a temporal disturbance of some sort in their time.  Either way, they have to get to Belthasar to be able to do anything about it.

Scenario 4 – Ephemeral Time

They immediately decide that they’ve got to dig out the Epoch again, but there’s just one problem – they hid it extraordinarily well, in a crypt guarded by all manner of enemies natural and not, so as to hide it from the use of those with evil intentions.  These enemies were tough, but not so tough that a fully powered-up party could not make short work of them.  However, they’ve been drastically reduced in power, leading Crono and the gang to wonder if they’ll survive the endeavor.  But it is decided that they have no choice but to make the attempt.  The crypt is on Manoria Cathedral Sub-Level 3.  The doors to both 2 and 3 are guarded by Zealian pendant doors made by Melchior at the Trio’s request.  On Sub-Level 2, there are a whole bunch of enemies to stay the hand of any who would wrongly attempt to access the time machine.  Once they arrive on Sub-Level 3, however, they find the Epoch – and the crypt – gone, with a massive mutant creature in its place, along with a background that looks like the Ocean Palace, but distorted with a time bubble.  The creature has been outfitted with machinery to increase its magic power – this isn’t going to be an easy fight.  In destroying it, they break the magical seal that was holding the Epoch in dimensional flux and receive one good armor set and a better weapon for CM&L from the treasure chests in the Epoch crypt.  Alarmed at what the creature's presence portends, the Trio puts the keys in the ignition and heads to 2302 A.D., only to find Chronopolis encircled in thunderstorms that reek of temporal energy.  Belthasar explains that history has been fundamentally altered by catastrophic errors in time, but he is unable to pinpoint their source.  Melchior is there now; when this started, Belthasar brought the Guru of Life out of 1002 A.D. to see if he could help.  The only thing keeping them there to observe this deterioration is a time bubble – the same kind Lavos created that allowed him to observe any time period but remaining impervious to any historical changes made between 65,000,000 B.C. and 1999 A.D., as he was removed from linear time during that period.  Belthasar and Melchior basically cobbled it together, though, and they weren't certain about its power usage.  Unless the team activates the secondary generator, the machine will not hold and Chronopolis will soon be cast into the Tesseract AKA the Darkness Beyond Time.  At this point, you can choose Robo to accompany you and replace one of the primary characters in your fighting party.  Whichever character gets left behind will attempt to help Belthasar and Melchior stabilize Chronopolis from the command center.  Random fluctuations in the space-time continuum produce various enemies at random points on the path to the auxiliary power station, including everything from malevolent spirits to murderous machines.  One of them injures Atropos severely.  In the generator room, the player fights a boss battle with a resurrected and more powerful Guardian robot that appears out of one of the fluctuations in time.  After defeating it, the player gets some good stuff as usual, and flips on the secondary generator, stabilizing Chronopolis in a time bubble…for now.  Belthasar admonishes the party members that are present to recruit the rest of the old team to launch a counteroffensive against…whatever the hell’s doing this.  Robo becomes a permanent party member at this point and takes Atropos’ Ribbon with him.  

Character Acquired

Robo – no innate element
Notes: If it’s able to be implemented, Robo has a new feature in CE – the Servo Module, an attachment perfected by Belthasar.  It can be used in place of an arm to hard-wire various types of beam weapons directly into Robo’s fusion generator.  This allows Robo to mimic all types of magic damage, though with varying potency depending on the type of attack.  As a rule, the beam weapons Robo acquires are less powerful than character Techs, though some of the most powerful ones acquired near the end of the game can match or exceed magic Tech skills.  In addition, Robo has some beam cannons that provide highly unique effects which few if any Techs are equipped to match.  Several of these are geared towards brutally damaging or disabling a specific type of enemy.  Of course, if the player does not wish to bother with beam attachments, most of Robo’s arms are available for use as well.

Starting Equipment

Weapon – Stone Arm, Laser Gun         
Armor – Titan Vest
Headgear – Steel Helm
Accessory – Atropos’ Ribbon

Techs
Cure Beam
Rocket Punch

Chronopolis also becomes the new End of Time/waiting area where you can swap party members, replenish your health, and save your game.  Melchior makes some character-specific gear for each of your team members before you leave, including the Servo Module for Robo.  Belthasar gives you the Comlink, which opens a temporal disturbance that allows you to communicate with Chronopolis no matter what time period you’re in.  First, Belthasar suggests traveling to 11,998 B.C.  He’s sure that Magus is still there, searching for Schala – his sheer ass-kicking power will come in handy.  The player selects which three party members they want to use, and then utilizes the Dispatch Chamber to zap them off to the ruins of the ancient Land of Magic.

Scenario 5 – Wind of Ruin

They come to Last Village, where Alfador still chills with the villagers and whatnot.  The Elder tells them to search the new mountain range to the West, far on the horizon. So they get there, and immediately they're fighting some pretty big baddies. After CML or Robo get past the first area of the mountain, the game cuts to Magus on the ground. He says..."The wind...I will...never..." Then bang, flashbacks begin. Some attendants show Janus Zeal his room. He runs in a little, and then runs back to his mother, saying "Mommy!" The attendants laugh. Next, we see Queen Zeal and attendants in the hall of the Mammon Machine; she pushes Janus back and tells him to get away and go play somewhere. Then we go back to the gang, who fight some more baddies. We see a young Magus in his teens, surrounded by Mystics and Flea. Flea taunts Magus excessively, but the teenage Magus suddenly arcs a lightning bolt at him. He's about to punish Magus, but Ozzie walks in and says "Heh, it’s a good thing he's gettin’ better."

The next cutscene shows Magus on a pedestal, with Ozzie. Magus doesn't actually speak, just faces the crowd, a ton of freaking Mystics all saluting. Ozzie says "It is the will of the Magus that we blockade Porre and Dorino! Go! We must capture the continent!" Meanwhile, we see a short pan of Denadoro Mountains and the cave, and cut back to the army cutscene, to imply Magus is only doing this for the Masamune. He doesn't care about the Mystic War, just having them do his dirty work. Cut back to Crono owning people. And the very last cutscene shows Magus, alone in the darkness. Frog fades in next to him, in his mind..."Is that all thou hath?" He then sees a sparkle, and Schala's face. Fade back to the party. They finally find Magus, but he's only on his knees on the ground, sort of almost gone crazy.  He implores Crono and his team to run, but you know it, a boss battle. This boss is going to be "one of the ancient ones," a beast or pagan god passed down in legend to the modern day (whose name we STILL haven't figured out). So they fight this idiot and bring Magus back. Magus is just totally out of it. So they leave him to recuperate in Chronopolis. Belthasar then notifies the party that he has an increasing concern for Ayla, now that the blizzards have begun.

Scenario 6 – Shadows of the Entity

They go to 64,999,998 B.C. and they find the villages completely deserted, save for some robust, foolhardy people who continue to try and live topside. They know nothing about Ayla, and speak in spite about her. There are still Reptites and other creatures alive. But they're dying out rapidly, so they're attacking like all hell to try and get access to the shelters the humans have secured. The lava fields cooled, and humans swooped into the warm caves. These creatures repeatedly try to break into these shelters, and are relentless in their attacks. Crono has to fight a few before he can get into Ioka. They learn that Kino met a warrior's end. Regardless, everyone in Ioka tells the party that Ayla has gone on some magnificent spiritual journey to save everyone by finding an artifact of ancient legends. No one can really tell the party what exactly they're doing. Belthasar radios in with some rumors about the legends she's following, but nothing's confirmed. He advises the party to check the Lost Village, the village that sat below Singing Mountain in the Prerelease. So they go there, finding some pretty bad mutations and stuff, but eventually they nail it -- stone tablets.

They pick up these tablets, and Robo (or if he's not around, Belthasar) translates them. They speak of a high artifact of the ancient world, a power source of near-limitless potential that could easily function has a heat source, and is also believed by the Reptites to have strong spiritual powers.  The Reptites kept this treasure deep within their stronghold inside Singing Mountain, but eventually they died anyway.  The artifact’s called the Dragon Tooth, and it is indeed guarded by something resembling a dragon, not to mention other monsters that will kick your ass. Now the Iokans explained that Ayla was doing this to try and stop the cold weather and save her people.  CM&L are like "omfg, Ayla's gonna get her ass kicked" cause the kicker is, Ayla's pregnant. So they pursue her into Singing Mountain and fight some baddies. Eventually they find Ayla, but she passed out just before reaching the Tooth.  Just like Magus, she tells them to run the hell away, and just like with Magus, they don’t listen.

Boss battle?  Boss battle.  Kitchen?  Kitchen.

This boss looks sort of like Nizbel, but not quite.  He has none of the intelligent speech of Nizbel.  However, he does have a will to destroy, and he looks semi-alien, but at the same time not.  After the battle, the massive-ass extremely Nizbel-ish guardian dude says some stuff about the planet’s dreams and about how the Dragon Tooth is a key to the gates of power over life and death.  The team’s like wow, that’s f-ing heavy.  So they take Ayla back to the Ioka village with the Dragon Tooth, which they can fortunately lift.  Ayla is sad that she’s unable to join the party, but they reassure her that she needs to have those babies to ensure humanity’s future.  A bit of reflection by Ayla on the power of the Dragon Tooth, the nature of fate, and evolution occurs – this is meant to both shock the veteran player and expand on the storyline.  The party loads the Dragon Tooth into the Epoch and takes it back off to Chronopolis’ Pocket Dimension to be analyzed by Belthasar’s team.  

Scenario 7 – Blood Summoning

However, the Dragon Tooth causes yet more problems by interacting strangely with the temporal void, boosting its power to catastrophic levels.  The Epoch is damaged in the very attempt to get back to Chronopolis, requiring a repair crew as soon as it docks.  A force field is quickly drawn around the artifact, but not fast enough to avoid awakening Magus.  Fortunately, he doesn’t go psychotic on them.  Magus relates that the artifact’s power must have called him back from the edge of death – apparently, the legends about the Dragon Tooth possessing powers of life and spiritual energies were true.  After a "go figure" moment that makes fun of the prevalence of such occurrences in RPGs in general, Magus wants to be filled in on what the hell’s going on, so Belthasar obliges him.  From CM&L’s abnormal experience with Sorin and the extreme disturbances surrounding the Dragon Tooth, Belthasar has determined that certain individuals in key time periods serve as the catalysts for whatever darkness threatens Earth this five minutes.  They are, in a sense, Chrono Triggers in their own right, as their very presence affects time abnormally.  As the team is both protected under Time Traveler’s Immunity and empowered by magic, they can sense the temporal disturbances and resolve them, a feat few others can claim to be able to accomplish.  Before anything else happens, though, Belthasar urges the team to seek out Glenn in 602 A.D., the last remaining member of their old party that is still able to join them.  However, Magus intervenes loudly, declaring that while in near-perfect harmony with the Black Wind brought on by his coma, he felt Schala’s presence.  Everyone’s like wtf, mate.  Magus basically drags them into the Dispatch Chamber to head for 11,998 B.C.  Melchior promises to conduct further analysis on the Dragon Tooth to see if any more can be gleaned from it, and Magus becomes a full-fledged member of Crono’s Temporal Wrecking Crew once again.

Character Acquired

Magus – Shadow

Starting Equipment            
Weapon – Blood Scythe      
Headgear – Skull Totem         
Armor – Dark Mail
Accessory – Amulet            

Techs
Lightning 2
Ice 2
Fire 2
Dark Bomb
Chant (area of effect spell, inflicts Chaos)

The party arrives in 11,998 B.C. and, through the magic (not really) of the Dispatch Chamber, they arrive in the entrance of the Black Omen, or what used to be the Black Omen anyway.  Magus notes that even considering the destruction, some of the defense points are noticeably lacking in functionality – this place has already been ransacked by someone, probably someone looking to get rid of the Crew.  They face surprisingly little physical resistance as they wind their way through the Omen, though there’s a lot of creepy atmospheric stuff that happens.  At the end, however, they find resistance that is quite real – a functioning Mammon Machine that's pumping out energy to a line of machinery in another room, sustained by the life force powering it, Schala Zeal.  *gasp* After everyone’s finished being shocked, a security alarm sounds and another weird-ass creature materializes and says something about being the guardian of his master's holy place; this one more resembles a Lavos Spawn, but with a certain Gothic/demonic edge to its spikes, making it almost resemble an angry dragon (modified FF6 sprites, anyone?)  It has a number of mutations on it and is extremely difficult to defeat.  Once they do, the creature explodes and its shrapnel hits the Mammon Machine, breaking it open; Schala has fallen to the floor, completely drained of her energy.  Without Schala's balancing life force, the Mammon Machine goes haywire and gates start opening and closing all over the place, so they grab Schala and start heading for the exit. The Mammon Machine's temporal distortions are preventing Belthasar from doing any kind of extraction from that time and place. Just as they reach the exit, a totally black figure appears. He says "This was not supposed to be..." Magus volunteers to hold this idiot off if the others save his sister. So you fight him for awhile, and Magus's theme plays.  When Magus inflicts sufficient damage on the assailant, you get a message that the party’s about to leave.  So Magus does some badass teleportation move and makes it out just in time. Well, a big explosion happens beneath the Ocean, and a light shines to the sky. They get back to Chronopolis, and Belthasar notes that he's been somewhat able to bring his own time period into control – the Mammon Machine was obviously affecting it.  Belthasar relates his suspicions that whoever reactivated the Mammon Machine was likely targeting them specifically – the time distortion was too precisely targeted to have been mere accident.  Not only that, it would take a being of exceptional skill and resource to even be able to make it there in the first place, let alone to set up the Mammon Machine and make it work again.  Schala and Magus need some time alone to discuss things, so they retire to a room there.  This emotional discussion is viewed by the player in a cutscene.  After that, Belthasar gets a new set of orders for the team – recruit Glenn, the final member still able to join the party.  Schala hangs out in Chronopolis for a while to recuperate while the team goes on their mission.

Scenario 8 – The Vanguard

After you get Schala, the party members of your choice hop in the repaired Epoch and head to 602 A.D.  Lots of plot development to be done here.  When they get there, they begin to discover not only the roots of the current war with Porre, but the source of the darkness they’re fighting against.  It’s relatively peaceful in 602 A.D.  They immediately start searching for Glenn – the word all around Guardia is that he is the Master Knight of the kingdom, and has been specially called in to deal with the threat.  He has formed a bloc of fighters called the Vanguard, a group of Guardian Navy SEAL equivalents personally trained by Glenn for special, extremely difficult missions crucial to preserving the rule of law.  But Glenn seems to have gone missing.  The heroes know that he wouldn’t disappear for no reason – he’s too great of a hero for that.  So they set about finding him themselves.

They are forced to become detectives, following a trail of evidence in Truce as to Glenn’s whereabouts.  It eventually leads to the Denadoro Mountains and San Dorino.  The party arrives in town and travels to a local bar to get some information about Glenn.  However, things go bad immediately.  A bar fight ensues once someone sees Crono – a Mystic calls out his quite well-known name and attempts to slit his throat.  The party easily dispatches the attacker, but six or seven other Mystics train heavily damaging muskets on the party – it’s a tough fight, obviously.  It quickly dissolves into chaos, with the humans fighting the Mystics.  The party barely manages to slip out.  After the fight, a random party member remarks “wtf they got guns!”  The party wisely decides to flee – a buttload of Mystics have been mobilized and are seizing the town.  Fortunately, a random person from the bar manages to fight his way out and offers to lead them to safety, saying that they’ll find refuge in his comrades’ hospitality.  When they get to the hideout, said comrades are revealed to be elite Guardian Knights, and their guide drops his disguise – it was Glenn the entire time.  The party shares a happy reunion, but there is little time for pleasantries.  Crono’s presence in Dorino was not a fortuitous turn of events, it turns out.  A band of Mystics were organizing a revolt the entire time – someone had given them the tools to fight Guardia.  Normal Guardian knights of this era aren’t exactly equipped to fight firearms – luckily, Glenn has trained the Vanguard for just this sort of unexpected situation.  He’s also trained them to use some magical techniques and to use magic to enhance their normal fighting skills.  And now, all that training is about to get a workout – Glenn and his three top knights, Renault, Luther, and Roget, are the only ones close enough to respond to the threat with any degree of immediacy.  Thus, Crono’s arrival is nevertheless quite handy, as he’s known to be an excellent fighter.  The party offers to help, and Glenn is thus gained as a permanent member of the team once again.

Character Acquired

Glenn – Cold
Note: As Glenn is no longer a frog, he has lost all techniques related to that form.  However, he has new Techs to make up for it, and he still retains several Cold-type powers.

Starting Equipment            
Weapon—Something Daniel made up.      
Armor—Aeon Suit         
Headgear—Rock Helm            
Accessory—Hero’s Medal            

Techs
Cure
Water
Poison Dart (shoots poison dart from gauntlet)
Leap Slash
Water 2

A battle sequence then occurs, much like the one in Truce.  Glenn’s knights put up a full frontal assault against the Mystics while Crono’s party is sent to infiltrate the mayor’s manor, which has been forcibly converted into the Mystic headquarters.  They do a good job of this, and make it all the way up to the top level.  There, of course, they encounter the resistance leader, Serran.  After he introduces himself, he pulls a trap door on both parties.  They land in a hangar in the rear of the building, while Serran descends onto his battle tank.  It’s a more powerful version of the one General Montcrief used in the first boss battle, despite being 400 years in the past; the design is suspiciously similar, which gets the team to wondering.  When Serran is defeated, he predictably runs away.  Glenn rushes in, having secured the rest of the town.  At that point, he collapses, having been severely wounded.  The team takes him to the inn to rest and recuperate.  When he finally awakens, he is able to reveal some information surrounding the uprising.  Serran used to be one of Magus’ commanders during the Mystic War, and in fact was one of the ones who helped train the warlock.  According to the dossier the Vanguard kept on him, he was a fanatic who believed that Magus was the Mystics’ destined Savior.  When Magus was defeated at his castle in Chrono Trigger, Serran quite simply went mad with messianic delusions – the current discord is a fruit of that madness.  Glenn pauses to reflect on that course of action; Magus does his own little bit of reflection if he’s there.  The threat is clear now – Glenn and party go to Glenn’s special hiding place inside Guardia Castle to retrieve the Masamune to beat Serran.  However, when they get there, it’s already gone, and in its place is another weird-ass boss enemy that the party has to fight.  A party member checks for traces of the sword – no footprints, equipment fibers, or forensic evidence of any kind of enemy presence is there.  The only thing Magus can sense is the taint of shadow magic in the area – given the taint’s strength and the lack of other evidence, someone likely teleported the sword out, circumventing all security systems.  Serran is the likely culprit – they make haste to his Underground Evil Fortress of Doom (TM) in the Ruined Desert to defeat him.  They don’t find it, however – they find a past version of Robo critically wounded.  He gives them directions to the fortress, and they hurry along to the headquarters and fight Serran.  Again, special dialogue occurs if Magus is there.  The party beats him, but he then retreats into…the ruined Epoch.  It completely slipped the party members’ minds that they got involved in a freaking war – the Mystics had likely ransacked the Epoch for parts and given the crucial stuff to Serran.

Serran triggers it, and escapes. Though intrigued, Belthasar must stop his curiosity in time to devise an escape plan for the party. Serran has shut down the transport machinery that leads back to the planet's surface; Belthasar provides the party with a series of natural gas vents; these are populated with gas-borne enemies. While fire spells instantly kill them, they are a double-edged sword in this environment. Eventually, the party makes it back topside and finds an inn, but cannot rest, as Porre vigilantes have set out en masse to slaughter the Mystics.  Glenn does not let the party go with him to stop the fight, insisting that it is his fight and that they've helped enough already.  To that end, he brings Renault, Roget, and Luther with him and attempts to stop the revolt.  The Vanguard is condemned by both sides, as each one now wants to fight.  They offer him a choice – Porre accuses Guardia of being weak and ineffectual, and declares that Glenn has the chance to prove his kingdom’s worth by vanquishing the Mystics.  The Mystics, on the other hand, state that by siding with the mob, Glenn would be promoting tyranny and validating everything the Mystic War was founded on.  Depending on which option he takes, he will have different dialogue when his friends realize he is gone and rush after him, and the choice will also affect a later scenario.  But, in the more immediate “future” the choice you make will force you to fight one of four sets of enemies, ranging from a few elite units to entire armies to none at all.  Renault, Roget, and Luther each have differing opinions on the issue.  Renault urges you to side with Porre against the Mystics, Luther believes that Glenn should side with the Mystics against Porre, and Roget states that they should not get involved, but should instead let them deal with their own problems.  There is a fourth option, which is attempting to make peace.

Option 1: Siding with Porre

This option will show Glenn giving into his distaste for the Mystics and gaining favor with Renault.  You will fight a Mystic warleader named Ral with the assistance of two of his tough minions.  These guys have powerful magic and a devastating Shadow-type triple tech.  When you beat these guys, Porre gives you thanks for helping them and sends a favorable message to King Guardia about Glenn.  They also give you some sort of magic reward.  However, after the scenario is finished, if you try to use Mystic-operated stores in 1002 A.D., you will encounter substantial price hikes and occasionally an outright fight – these are only the more immediate results.  If you go to Porre, though, tensions will have backed down somewhat between the two governments, as there will be more civilians who oppose the war against Guardia, and thus the Porre administration will have a difficult time getting things done.  The Masamune will then gain a damage bonus against magical enemies.

Option 2: Siding with the Mystics

Porre will express incredulity at this course of action and will send forth their captain and two minions, just like with Porre.  Glenn will win Luther’s favor with this course of action.  Be warned – these guys have guns.  Their magical abilities are limited, but they possess heavy artillery to compensate.  The Mystics will thank you if you beat them, give you a magical charm, and cease their revolt against Guardia.  The surviving Mystics will turn themselves in.  When you go to the future, however, you will find Porre to be much more hostile to you.  All Porrean enemies will be more difficult to defeat.  The Masamune will gain a damage bonus against non-magical enemies.

Option 3: Declaring Neutrality

This provokes a dismissive reaction from both sides and curries favor with Roget.  An absolute bloodbath then occurs as Glenn and his men observe from cover.  When it’s over, the opposing armies will have been eradicated to the last man.  The corpses are available for looting, and thus you obtain far more items than you would with either of the first two options.  When the party arrives, they are shocked at what appears to be Glenn’s handiwork, but none moreso than Magus.  The party knew Glenn was a powerful fighter, but death on this scale seems beyond him.  A flashback to Glenn’s conversation with Cyrus on Zenan Bridge occurs.  Post-that, the Masamune itself is slightly altered to reflect the more sinister form it takes on in Chrono Cross, though it isn't all the way there yet.  The Masamune gains slight damage bonuses to all enemies – smaller than that of either individual bonus above.

Option 4: Attempt to Make Peace

Select this if you wish to go it alone; it achieves no favor with any of your knights and fails horribly, to boot.  It results in the same bloodbath as option 3, as Glenn’s calls for peace are ignored.  This time, however, Glenn will have to fight a boatload of enemies instead of merely observing.  When the party finds Glenn, he will be weeping in the center of the battlefield at the unnecessary loss of life.  He will have different dialogue than if you simply did nothing, though.  This option will have an effect on the other Vanguard-related scenarios – it will set a precedent for the Vanguard’s functions.  This will also lend healing powers to the Masamune – simply holding it will heal the party members by a certain amount every turn.  The amount is based on Glenn’s character level.  The items from Option 3 will also be there for you to loot.

When you defeat Serran, you retrieve the Masamune from his grasp.  It serves an important plot function in this game, too; using dreams to warn Glenn of a cataclysmic occurrence that will later be revealed to be the Time Crash.  However, its offensive power has been diluted from being in the hands of Serran.  It’s still a good weapon, though.  Glenn does acquire others, but in the endgame the Masamune is restored to its former power, but not without a heavy cost.

Once one of these four scenarios has been completed, Belthasar opens up a Gate so the party can leave.  However, just before they do, the party spots Sorin.  He dives into a Gate of his own, and the party is like OMFGZOR!!  Fortunately, he was apparently wounded and leaves a rather large blood sample behind for analysis.

Scenario 9 – The Emissary

This scenario is nearing the halfway point in the game, and Belthasar’s cooked up something special for it.  By analyzing the Dragon Tooth’s inscriptions, he has been able to figure out how to incorporate it into his temporal search capabilities.  It doesn't just have intense life energy radiating from it -- it actually serves as a data collector for that energy. Belthasar manages to figure out a way to process its data through his computer and give a readout. By reading a particular life force and determining its unique spectral signature, he can locate all occurrences of that life force throughout known history.  The party wants to use it to locate Sorin, and upon doing so they find an occurrence of him in 11,998 B.C.  Not only is he skulking out in the middle of the ocean, he’s apparently several hundred feet below the surface.  By this time, the player has gained some heavier equipment, so the difficulty level increases noticeably at this point.  To compensate for that, Schala expresses a desire to join their fight against evil.  She is now rendered playable, and her magic comes in quite handy.  While her brother specializes in destructive magic, she is far more useful for either bolstering your own party or inflicting debilitating status effects on the enemy – and unlike in conventional RPGs where status spells never work for you but always work for your enemy, Schala can pave the way for some major damage with them.  For this scenario, Magus and Schala request to be the ones chosen to come along.  Your entire party is set for this mission, at least up to a point.

Character Acquired

Schala – Heaven
Note: Schala’s weapon is not any kind of melee device but a pendant instead.  Depending on the pendant type, it fires a magical beam with varying damage and effects.
Starting Equipment

Starting Equipment            
Weapon—Dream Shard         
Armor—Mist Robe            
Headgear—Prism Helm            
Accessory—Amulet            

Techs
Cure
Cure 2
Uh...someone care to make something else up?

With this accomplished, Crono, Magus, and Schala head to 11,998 B.C. on Sorin’s tail.  However, as soon as they warp in from the Temporal Catch, they find something unbelievable; an immense city under the waves whose architecture is clearly that of Zeal.  It’s a highly advanced city akin to Atlantis.  When the party contacts Belthasar and Melchior about its existence, they find it hard to believe that it even still exists.  According to Belthasar, this was ancient Zeal; the people that raised a continent into the sky to form the kingdom of Zeal were from this place.  He then enlightens them as to the nature of the Zealian Schism.  The Zeal we see floating in the sky in the original Chrono Trigger was a relatively new place, and not everyone wanted to risk it.  Those that didn’t stayed behind in this city, which was eventually overtaken by a flood and presumed lost.  They are instructed to immediately talk to whoever’s in charge about their mission and inform them that there’s a dangerous assassin in their midst.  Upon reaching the palace, they are greeted by none other than King Zeal, long thought dead.  Schala is understandably excited at seeing the siblings’ father alive, and he is overjoyed to have them back.  Magus, however, is a tad bit more reserved than his sister, for he senses something dark.  King Zeal grants them all free room and board for the duration of their stay.  Crono gets a discount to buy awesome Zeal gear, and in general it all goes well.  For a while, Crono is split from the Zeal siblings to explore the city and gain insights as to its nature.  While wandering the city, Crono hears of some mystical ruins that have been sealed off ever since the flying Zeal fell; they all have Norse names.  They are rumored to contain both powerful treasures and an Oracle that can tell the future.  The townspeople say that the last time the ruins were visited was before the fall of “the insurgent Zeal” and that the Oracle warned them to prepare for it.  They fulfill the role of “water dungeon” except that unlike the Ocean Palace this one actually has water.  Levels are raised and lowered, etc.  Some knowledge of fluid mechanics and thermodynamics is required to make it through, though it’s pretty much all common sense stuff.  Crono radios Belthasar and gets to call 2 more party members to help him.  After they finish exploring the dungeons (really one huge dungeon with multiple entrances/exits, much like the Skull Woods from A Link to the Past) they find the Oracle, who tells them that the city of Calasperan is the specter of Lavos.  Alarmed, they race back and bust into the palace.

Meanwhile, Magus and Schala are spending time with their father.  Janus is a major focus here.  He talks to his father about various issues in his life, including his past, his sister, and his mother.  These conversations, “fireside chats” if you will, are intended to provoke and numb the player’s senses at the same time; each one is triggered at various points in the city and the ruins.  At the end of these quests, King Zeal will offer Janus the chance to join with him, along with a special guest…a revitalized Queen Zeal!  The King claims that they can all be a family again, and that the holy artifact, the Frozen Flame, has made it possible.  Janus can sense Lavos’ power all over it; he realizes it’s bullshit and tries to make a break for it, but gets trapped in the throne room with Schala.

At this point, Crono has found his way into the research wing of the palace, where he finds all kinds of wack-ass biomechanical and magical/alchemical experiments, similar to the Weapons in Final Fantasy, save that there are more varieties of weird stuff here than the Empire has TIE variants. (<-- hyperbole yo)  Among this number are engineered creatures with various odd, specialized abilities that are nevertheless very effective. Of course, Crono has to fight a boss to gain entry to the research core. In this case, it's a bioengineered dragonlike cyborg with special skin that softens and hardens selectively.  Fortunately, as a prototype, it ain't the sharpest tool in the shed. Once that's accomplished, Crono gains access to the core, where instead of some giant uber-Weapon he finds Sorin as the centerpiece of the whole thing.  Sorin is convalescing from terrible wounds he took by accident in the battle at Dorino.  He’s too weak to get up and fight Crono, and so they talk for a bit.  Sorin reveals a bit of his backstory here, but indirectly; he’s not even sure who he is aside from his name.  He babbles on and on about how everyone left him, and while we’re sure it’s all very tragic Crono doesn’t exactly have time to listen.  He frees a woman named Dyasavah from an experiment chamber.  She explains that she was Zeal’s chief research scientist and that the King is mad, and once she figured it out he ordered that she would be a victim of her own tests.  She possesses a Gate generator, which Crono uses to call forth the rest of his party members from Chronopolis to help.  She shows the party a secret passageway up to the throne room, which is where King Zeal and the Frozen Flame have taken Janus and Schala hostage.  Crono busts in on the throne room, shortly followed by the rest of his allies.  King Zeal expresses glee that they’re all there, and then the Frozen Flame begins to speak.  Whatever comes out of his “mouth” is going to be uber-frightening and awesome, but after that he spirits the party away to various time periods, amidst cries of “oh noes!!1!” and “dammit, not this shit again.”

--------------------------

Look for the second post in...oh, a few minutes.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 31, 2005, 01:40:03 am
Ok, here's Part Two.  It has everything from the breaking point to Sorin's death, and features a list of what we still need to finish.  So, without further adieu...is that how you spell it?

------------------------

The Breaking Point

The Frozen Flame demonstrates its supreme asstardery by flinging the heroes off to different time periods.  There are three groups here.  One is composed of Magus, Schala, and Glenn, and they’ve been sent off to a high technological future on the brink of destruction, and are fated to make a grave choice.  Another contains Lucca, Marle, and Robo, who get to witness the founding of Guardia firsthand, only to find out that the history textbooks lied to them (OMFGLOL!)  Poor Crono is all by his lonesome, and he witnesses the most terrifying thing of all.  And when I say it’s the most terrifying thing of all, I mean that Goatse is positively wonderful compared to that shit.

Crono Nightmare #1

Crono goes first in the breaking point sequence.  He’s ended up in a nightmarish temporal flux that’s even harder to navigate than the editing program, if that’s possible.  He finds himself in the midst of a Porre assault on Truce, much more vicious than the last one.  He sees an alternate version of himself being captured, and rushes after him, fighting VERY DIFFICULT battles.  At the end of the sequence, he finds a version of William Ishito as the Headsman.  Ishito says a bunch of stuff about how he brought this on his country, and how it’s his fault that all those people are going to die.  He comments that Crono is the reason he’s in the state he is, and then gives him the guillotine.  Temporal flux happens, and the scenario shifts to Marle, Lucca, and Robo.

The Founding of Guardia

The aforementioned three land on a frozen tundra, seemingly in the middle of nowhere.  Immediately, Marle begins expressing turmoil over Crono's fate; Lucca is disturbed as well, and reveals that she still sort of likes the guy.  Girl talk ensues, and the party starts wandering, hoping to find some hint of civilization. Eventually they spot a large mass, which turns out to be a primitive army bearing the brunt of the cold. Before they approach, they notice another army riding up the valley behind them; it is flying the Guardian flag, so they venture over there. The army is dumbfounded and nearly kills the travelers due to the weird robot with them (Robo), but Marle's pendant is the same as the leader - Cedric the Executor, later to become King Guardia I. Marle attempts to catch up, but the approaching army - the primitive tribe of Porre - is ready to fight, with spears armed. A massive battle takes place; as it did historically, it turns in Porre's favor, so Cedric the Executor books it out of there with Marle. Lucca and Robo can't rejoin the main forces; to save the wounded Lucca, Robo lets himself go. He is utterly vicious, protecting Lucca at any cost; he kills a lot of Porre warriors.

Back in an encampment and rudimentary shed, Marle converses with Cedric Guardia about the future. He notes that the divine forces were not on his side at the battle today, but that he shall "bring" them to the next encounter. Marle and the player learn that the angel in Manoria Cathedral is Cedric's mother, claimed to be of divine descent. At night, Robo drags Lucca in, and promptly collapses. Lucca is well-awake, and in a fit of rage; she blames herself for not being strong enough to fight on her own, and is starting to split down the middle between rational thought and her emotions; she feels helpless, and reflects that science did not fail her, but rather her implementation of it.  Robo and Lucca have a discussion about the events that just passed; they foist moral responsibility for human actions on humans, even when taking Lavos into account.  They’ve seen the face of the devil…or the face of God, depending on how you look at it.  Eventually, they fall asleep.  In the morning, Lucca and Robo rejoin the main Guardian force and Marle as they ride out to the final battle with Porre.  This time, however, Cedric is pulling no punches; Guardia is carrying an Ark of the Covenant type box with them.  A custom sprite that resembles illustrations of the actual Ark of the Covenant will be created for this purpose.  They've goaded the Porre army into approaching their position in huge numbers; a secret attack from the side routs the army quickly. They stumble onto an encampment; Cedric orders the killing of everyone, including the women and children. Marle cannot stand this slaughter; Robo points out that changing things now might have an adverse effect in time, and Lucca notes that since Lavos did have the power to alter time, this could all be a fake timeline fabricated by the Frozen Flame.  Cedric reiterates to them that this is war, and that “the Porre savages” need to be sent a message.  Robo disagrees with Cedric’s implementation of military tactics, but before they have time to argue about it, Porre attacks again with a surprise retaliation.  Guardia currently occupies an inferior position, because of Cedric’s bloodlust.  This time, the Porrean leader is there personally; his name is Antaeus. He wields an artifact called the RivenCrimse; Lucca and Marle both recall that this battle, recorded in ancient lore, is the founding of Guardia, but this situation is much different than had read about.  Porre appears to be far stronger than they were previously, and each side has some magic-users at its disposal.  Lucca reasons that in the original timeline, Guardia was intended to be a prime source of Lavos’ DNA acquisitions, but Crono, Marle, and Lucca resisted his whims and through their efforts transformed Guardia into a peaceful country rather than a conquering empire as Lavos wished.  Porre is the next best thing, but it’s still a mystery how they suddenly managed to acquire a ton of magic users in the present.  The powers Guardia uses are mostly spirit-based, whereas Porre uses both elemental and Lavos energy.  This will end up playing into both the El Nido scenario and Sorin’s backstory, but for now Antaeus taunts Cedric the Executor, remarking that with the RivenCrimse, he just finished slaying a pack of Dorino filth escorting a Guardian chieftain. This sends Cedric into an all-out fury, but rather than fight, he decides to use his secret weapon; the Frozen Flame!  Marle cries out, and a light floods the battlefield. Robo is alarmed, however; while rumors have always been passed down that Guardia used an artifact to establish its kingdom, some of the energy emanating from the Flame registers in his Chronometer as originating from far in the the future of the Flame itself. Robo then remarks that Antaeus isn't being owned like he should be by the Flame. The Porre leader then appears in front of the party.  Instead of dying, though, he is possessed by the Flame.  Time itself freezes and the Flame then begins to speak through him, saying that this timeline is indeed real, how much he loves and hates them in his own sadistic way, and using the following pre-battle trash talk:

"A thousand fires have sparked within my mind! I see everything! I know all! And I know this: you must perish!"

…Jesus Christ, that line is fucking awesome.  After that, the Flame pumps several fucktons of energy into Antaeus, and the crew has to fight a boss battle with him.  Before he dies, Antaeus makes a comment about the “legend of El Nido” and how it holds the key to the ultimate magic.  This naturally is used to further the plot, as Lucca, Marle, and Robo wonder what the hell a backwater Porre colony has to do with anything.  When the time warp subsides, Cedric is confident that his use of the Frozen Flame has defeated Porre.  He then declares to his armies (in a very Palpatine-like fashion) that he will found Guardia and that they will have peace.  The team gets the RivenCrimse, Antaeus’ scythe, out of the fight; it’s a good weapon for Magus once they reunite.  They then duck into the forest, away from the Guardian armies.  Lucca reasons that if this timeline is a current one, Belthasar will have noticed the temporal disturbance caused by the Flame and detected them there, and will activate a Gate in a temporal coordinate only slightly ahead of the battle.  A few seconds later, a Gate appears, and they dive into it and return to Chronopolis.  Once there, they talk with Belthasar about what happened during the original timeline; they theorize that the Flame’s history with Guardia might hold some clue about how to defeat it.  They also ask Belthasar to do some research into the legend of El Nido that Antaeus mentioned.  However, that will have to wait a bit longer…

Crono Nightmare #2

The player doesn’t actually play during this one.  Instead, he/she bears witness to Crono getting assaulted by various team members and NPCs saying angsty goth shit about how Crono is a dick.  Then it cuts to a much less goth (or more? you decide) sequence with Glenn, Janus, and Schala.

The Vanguard Apocalypse

Magus, Glenn, and Schala awaken to find themselves trapped in a maximum-security prison.  A guard promptly comes in and starts questioning Magus, kicking the living shit out of him.  He’s angered, but powerless to do anything; apparently, the guards have injected him with a powerful sedative that shuts down the neural pathways to the parts of the brain that allow him to use magic.  Glenn and Schala are also tortured for a while.  After the guards leave them alone, Glenn and Janus reflect on what an odd and generally sad pair of individuals they are.  They joke away their entire history, mentioning Cyrus, Zeal, and all the other things they’ve lost.  Glenn reflects that hate is built not on circumstance but on selfishness; when they went to see Cyrus and free his spirit with the Masamune, Cyrus was not infuriated with vengeance against Janus, but rather empowered with love for his friends.  Glenn says that perhaps Cyrus knew what the former Magus had lost. Glenn was selfish in his hate, which might have gotten in the way of defeating the greater enemy, Lavos.  Janus says the same thing; he didn’t care what he destroyed just so long as he got back at the demon.  They even reflect on Lavos’ selfishness; he was the ultimate manipulator, and possibly still is, but Janus is no longer able to treat Glenn or any of the others with contempt.  This is partially because he recognizes their valor in combat and extreme courage; they were all willing to give their lives for an ideal they believed in.  While the Magus generally scoffs at the notion of “high-minded ideals” as Anakin Solo put it, Janus reflects that his entire life thus far has been lived in service of a secret ideal; that of the family and love.  Though he respects Glenn, he makes it clear that he did not abandon the ways of war for him or any of the other team members, but for Schala alone.  Glenn, on the other hand, embraced the ways of death in memory of Cyrus.  Truly, the two are not all that different; they openly wonder whether, if their places had been switched, events would have played out the same as they did before.  It isn’t a question of individuality, they decide, but of the nature of sentient beings to be attached to people or things.  Schala reflects on her attachment to life itself; she feels that she was never meant to live again, that Lavos should have taken her in the Ocean Palace.  Janus cannot take this, and summons up enough strength to smash his hand into the camera’s glass lens.  Cutting himself in several places with its shards, he bleeds the sedative out of his body, and slowly feels the power of magic returning to him.  When a group of guards comes to investigate, Magus uses Black Hole on them.  Schala winces at the loss of life, but Glenn reminds her that sometimes there isn’t any choice.  They agree that they have to get back to Belthasar in Chronopolis, but first they have to figure out where they are.  Upon making it to a computer terminal and letting Janus access it, they learn that they’re in 2102 A.D.  A strained geopolitical situation is the norm in this era; several world powers have built up nuclear arsenals, and another Cold War is currently in progress.  There are no Mystics in this time; human imperialism killed them all off many centuries ago; the implication is that one of the holy wars in the Middle Ages did it.  Janus notes that they are only 200 years before Belthasar’s time, and that he said the world’s unified government was what allowed him to build Chronopolis, but the governments of this time are nowhere close to unified.  After this, a mysterious yet familiar enemy steps in.  He congratulates them on escaping, even though he expected them to be able to do it.  He then steps out of the shadows and reveals himself as Serran.  He came here using his miniature and much more archaic-looking version of the Epoch.  He relates that while the Masamune was in his hands, he was approached by a dark warrior, whom the player knows could only have been Sorin.  Sorin communicated the will of the Frozen Flame – the will of Lavos, who Serran sees as an Almighty God – through the Dreamstone of the Masamune.  Glenn remarks that this must be the origin of the strange visions he’s been having periodically of a city vanishing in time; Sorin imparted his dreams to the Masamune when he held it, and the echo of the Frozen Flame’s will lingers on it.  Serran then reveals two crucial secrets.  Number one is his mission; he’s going to start a global nuclear apocalypse.  The survivors will be forced to band together, just as “the Master” wishes, and that said Master promised him that by doing this, Serran will help him get revenge on the humans who destroyed his life.  Number two is the origin of this group; it’s the Vanguard.  Now a far cry from an order of noble knights, it is a secret paramilitary organization devoted to creating a new world order; the Central Regime.  According to their beliefs, it’s for the good of humankind in general.  Serran knows this, but doesn’t believe that that will be the end result.  However, the Crew knows better.  Janus remarks that such a maneuver would provide Belthasar with the necessary resource base to create Chronopolis, so technically they’re right.  However, it’s disturbingly similar to how he justified the first few times he killed someone; the thought that humanity would be better off in the end for him having done so, because of the eventually removed influence of Lavos.  Serran also speaks about the legend of El Nido, which he’s heard about both from Porre in 602 A.D. and from his Master.  In the end, both the path through and the item obtained from Serran at the end of the scenario is a consequence of what the player picked way back in Scenario 8.  One of the scenarios even has the party aiding Serran, because it allows Chronopolis to be constructed.

Option 1: All Your Base Are Blown The Fuck Up

This option will result in the party attempting to self-destruct the base they’re in so as to stop the nuclear war.  It’s the surest option they’ve got, but the base is under a populated zone and thousands of people will die in the process, and the chances of them making it out are slim to none, and slim just passed out from a heroin overdose.  If the player elects this option, they will overload the reactor core and then have 10 minutes to escape the base.  If they don’t get out before then, the last saved game reloads.  At the end of the path, they’ve got to fight Serran one last time, but he’s a pushover.  They use the parts of the Epoch Serran stole to take a hike back to Chronopolis.  A cutscene of a city blowing up then occurs, and the scenario moves on to Crono Nightmare #3.  Picking the ‘fight the Mystics’ option in Scenario 8 will make the scenario take this path, and for your trouble you’ll be granted Lucca’s second most powerful weapon early (the one that can eventually be modified in Calasperan to be the ultimate).

Option 2: Aid the Vanguard

This option has the party actually aiding Serran and the Vanguard in their atrocity, because they don't see a way out of it.  Thus history is relatively unchanged.  The party fights Serran out of anger at his obvious immorality and what they’ve just done.  Choosing to fight Porre in Scenario 8 will result in this situation; Serran drops Marle’s second most powerful crossbow early.

Option 3: I Was Born Lazy

This option has the party giving up on the conundrum, and a nuclear war unfolds.  Thus history is relatively unchanged.  Just as in the previous option, the party is angry at Serran and fights him for vengeance.  Choosing to declare neutrality in Scenario 8 will result in this situation; Serran drops a Safe Helm.

Option 4: Stop the Missile

This scenario, as in its counterpart, is the most difficult, but it is also the most rewarding.  However, it’s no less tragic.  This time, the team waits until the missile launches, and then steals Serran’s stripped-down Epoch to go after it.  Once Serran figures out what happens, he’s hot on their tail with a fleet of Vanguard jets backing him up.  There’s no question that anyone in the vicinity when the missile explodes is going to die.  It would be easy enough to pick the missile off with the Epoch’s laser cannons, but it was designed primarily to be a time travel machine and not a superiority fighter.  Its targeting systems aren’t up to snuff with what’s necessary to hit the missile, so Glenn volunteers to take a swan dive past it with the Masamune.  This will almost certainly kill all of them, but it’s a chance he’s willing to take.  However, Janus isn’t; he knocks Glenn out and casts Dark Matter on the warhead, which explodes it.  Unfortunately, it’s very close to a populated area by that time, and detonating it kills plenty of people anyway and starts the war all the same.  But they don’t have time for mourning as Schala uses all the Epoch’s power to open a Gate and escape, thus presumably killing the Vanguard.  Serran, however, follows them into the Gate, intent on doing one last battle with Glenn.  He’s much harder this time than in the others, but upon defeating him, a secret compartment within his version of the Epoch opens; it contains a massive hunk of Rainbow Shell!  It’s big enough to allow you to make all the characters’ penultimate weapons at this time.  The party arrives back at Chronopolis, getting out of the crappily held together ship before it goes BOOMWIG, with Lucca, Marle, and Robo already there, and thankfully nothing’s changed; Melchior promises to get right to work on weaponry of the highest quality for the team.  Glenn, Janus and Schala wonder about certain holes that weren’t filled in 2102; why did the Vanguard let Serran take command?  And how did they know about the Central Regime and Chronopolis?  Moreover, what could have possessed Serran to go along with the Vanguard’s plans if he knew about the possibility of Chronopolis?  Belthasar does some research into that.  Crono is now the only one missing.  All thoughts turn to him, but he’s pretty preoccupied…

Crono Nightmare #3 - Defilement

This is it, folks, the big daddy of all nightmares and the end of the breaking point sequence, as well as the only one of Crono’s nightmares that has a save point in it.  ZeaLitY wanted to use the ruined world again, so here's what we came up with.  Crono lands in a strange amalgam of a world; it contains varying types of terrain.  Ghosts roam everywhere, portals open and close seemingly at random, and strange alien creatures populate the world, including many Lavos Spawns.  In essence, it’s a combination of Metroid Prime’s Phazon crater and Chrono Cross’ Isle of the Damned, with a very small bit of Gothic architecture.  This world quite literally is a living hell, and it’s Crono’s task to find a way out of it and back to Chronopolis.  There are many signs all over the place, and creatures akin to even more perverted versions of the bioengineered monsters Dyasavah was researching in Calasperan.  The signs all lead to a large temple, where acolytes are going to present their work to a Dark Lord.  The temple is home to highly advanced technology; it’s protected by extremely powerful sentinels and has several spires sticking out of it that appear to be gathering energy from the air.  There are several of what appears to be wrecked UFOs and various other starships immediately outside the temple.  Crono descends into the perverted temple, which is replete with magickal runes in alien languages – among them are spells that open portals into various limbo dimensions.  Crono tries to run for one of these, but some acolytes show up and restrain him.  They bring him down a very long series of steps and force him to kneel before their lord…

Guess who’s back?  Yup.

Crono expresses incredulity at seeing Lavos again, and he certainly never expected to see him in the exalted state that he’s in.  This form of Lavos is that of the demon-figure on top of the altar Magus was using to summon Lavos in CT.  Crono asks Lavos whether this place is Hell; Lavos says that it is, but not in the way Crono envisions it.  However, this doesn’t stop Crono’s courage.  He steals one of the acolytes’ weapons, knocks them all out, and proceeds to do protracted battle against Lavos.  If he hasn’t gotten it already, he gains the Luminaire technique when the battle starts.  Once sufficient damage has been done to the monster, he remarks that Crono thinks in incredibly physical terms and that Lavos is far more than just a body.  He says that this is true of all the life he watched over, but none of them ever realized it; if anyone, he expected the ones responsible for destroying him to figure it out.  But as it stands, Lavos has an uncountable number of acolytes and creatures willing to be remade in his image for his glory, and an uncountable number that already have been.  Even Crono is now a part of Lavos, the Dark Lord says, but Crono has other plans.  He smashes the door with Luminaire and frantically pushes buttons on the machinery until he realizes that it's controlled by the user's magic; this realization enables him to adjust a portal to remove him from this false timeline and take him back to Chronopolis.  Once back there, a frenzied Crono relates his experiences and then collapses into Marle’s arms.  The entire team is thrown into a panic as to what it portends.  Crono is given time to recover, and the team vows to defeat Lavos, in whatever form he takes.  Cutscenes ensue before the next scenario takes place.

Scenario 10 – Evil Seed

Now that Crono’s back in the real world and everyone else is done with their random jaunts through time, Melchior issues whatever advanced weaponry the team got from the breaking point scenarios.  If option 4 was picked at the end of the Vanguard Apocalypse, Melchior and Magus will, in a cutscene, develop the Arco Iris, a Rainbow Sword made from much purer Rainbow Shell.  If you didn’t pick option 4, don’t worry; you can still fix it.  There’s plenty of Rainbow Shell to go around in El Nido as a quest reward, and the party will be going there shortly.  First, though, the team acts on Marle’s urge to explore Guardia’s history with the Frozen Flame to look for its weakness; if the Frozen Flame’s master plan is what Crono saw in the Tesseract, it bodes ill for everyone.  In order to do this, they attempt to track down the master of random treasure; Toma Levine.  Toma’s fallen on hard times in 602 A.D., saying that almost everything worth taking has been found, except perhaps the Valle Crimse.  Legend has it that Guardia’s greatest treasure was once kept there; the party’s like “OMG FROZEN FLAME” and rushes to the King for permission to enter it, which he gladly grants.  ZeaLitY did most of the work on this scenario; he suggested a tomb something like the Holy Grail’s resting place in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, complete with a really old knight.  But this time, there actually is a fight; Crono has to be tested to see if Guardia’s still got the spirit of heroes in it. At the Bottom of the Night plays during the fight, much like in Chrono Cross when Serge fights Miguel in the Dead Sea.  If Crono has the Arco Iris, this is an easy fight.  Upon being defeated, the knight lets loose some knowledge about the legend of El Nido spoken of by both Antaeus and Serran.  He gives the party a priceless yet dilapidated pendant before passing away forever, as well as a map to the place.  They take it back to Melchior to have it restored; it’s Schala’s penultimate weapon.  Thus ends this scenario.

Scenario 11 – The Unknown Legend

There was previously a bunch of crap here.  We got rid of it.  This is the El Nido section, where the party fights the Frozen Flame in a hidden fortress somewhere and it runs away like a little pussy.  This was the source of the future Frozen Flame that pumped a bunch of energy into Antaeus to make life difficult for the party.  When the Frozen Flame is defeated, the fortress begins to disappear into the temporal void; the Flame lets slip that its power was holding the castle in existence.  It also coughs up some Rainbow Shell before leaving.  The party's like "wtf mate" and goes back to check on the Dragon Tooth in Chronopolis.

Scenario 12 – Origin of Knowledge

When the party gets back to Chronopolis, they immediately tell Belthasar what the Flame told them, and he tries to figure out how to extract all of the Dragon Tooth's knowledge. Lavos, and by extension the Frozen Flame, has a power thought to be exclusive to Chrono Triggers; the ability to summon things out of the Tesseract.  However, a Chrono Trigger is better at it than Lavos, because it was specifically designed to permanently restore a given object or organism, “hatching” it with the energy of the Tesseract; Lavos requires continued power expenditures to maintain the presence of whatever he summons.  After it's cracked/communicated with (more on this later) the Dragon Tooth reveals that the entire city of Calasperan and everything in it is one of these time-dreams; in the original timeline, the destruction of the breakaway took out Calasperan as well, and King Zeal perished.  However, the team’s interference in the Ocean Palace allowed the Frozen Flame its freedom from the Mammon Machine.  As it scanned the spacetime continuum around it for purpose, it saw in the recently departed King Zeal a mechanism to carry out Lavos' will; an Arbiter.  It resurrected him as such in order to manipulate him.  King Zeal, having witnessed everyone he knew and loved die, lost his mind.  He became deranged enough to wish the entire city back into existence and pretend nothing was happening, allowing his mind to be taken over by the Frozen Flame. Lavos did consider simply calling up an army of vanquished alien warlords and forcibly taking over Earth with them, but not only would that be impractical, it would not yield the kind of results he wanted; complete control over everything on the planet.  Finally, Lavos’ origin and his master plan are revealed:

The Lavos that Crono encountered in his Tesseract nightmare was only an extension of the real Lavos' will; Lavos has placed Crono into his personal dream, which just happens to be a timeline that never came to pass. Lavos is trying to use the Frozen Flame, which is still trapped in the mortal world, to alter time in such a way as to make this dream a reality; he's using it as his One Ring, except infinitely more 1337. In his dream, the Entity itself does not exist; Lavos, using his power and knowledge, has destroyed it and installed himself as the planet's new Gaia, remaking it in His image, which is why it's so twisted. But that's not even the limit of it. I've often said that due to the extreme resilience and knowledge that Lavos -- one single being -- possesses, a ship constructed by an entire crew of Lavoids would be a feat even the Galactic Empire would crap their pants at. This Lavos-controlled version of Earth IS the warship. And there's more of them out there. Earth was a rare find on Lavos' part, in essence a jewel of the cosmos; the number of planets that have the necessary conditions to evolve critically-thinking, technologically capable life is extremely small, at least on a cosmic scale.  It's special, and thus he intends to use this planet as his base to conquer the rest of them.  And when I say the rest of them, I absolutely mean it. He has designs on the entire universe, and the capacity to transfer his soul or extensions of it into other bodies; hence the Frozen Flame. He can even possess entire planets, rendering him theoretically immortal so long as the planet's star doesn't explode. He can overshadow others' life forces, willing or not. He had planned to possess Earth and use it as his body, but just as Earth itself was a unique occurrence, so was its spirit, the Entity; the only one strong enough to resist him. For sixty-five million years, he waged war on the Earth itself, drawing the DNA and residual spirit energy of the lifeforms on its surface and evolving progressively stronger lifeforms to get more. This was the only flaw in his plan; eventually, beings strong enough to fight and defeat him occurred, partially due to the Entity's own evolutionary imprint, but the vast amount of energy he'd collected enabled him to operate even from the Tesseract, infusing the Frozen Flame with his power. What he's trying to do with all his power is manifest his dream in the very beginnings of the planet, when the Entity was a nascent consciousness. In essence, he's trying to kill the Entity in the distant past, and this course of action is causing a massive tear in time. What this means is that in certain locations, reality and the Tesseract are spilling into each other; such was the case in the Epoch's tomb among other places. But he isn't through yet; with his planet-ship and his timerip, along with the other worlds conquered by his disciples and Lavos Spawns, he's going to systematically take over the entire universe, absorbing the power of each new planet he conquers for himself. That may and probably will take him trillions of years, but he's literally got all the time in the universe to make it happen. When he accomplishes this, he's going to initiate what astronomers and cosmologists term the Big Crunch, and all the planets and stars and galaxies, all of what will at that point be extensions of his will are going to be drawn together, creating a universal point of supergravity and rendering all matter and all possible timelines in the universe a part of Lavos. At that point, you can guess what the universe will be like; Lavos will remake it in His image.  However, in order to accomplish this, he needs to fully control the Earth first, and to do this he needs to actually kill the Entity.  To do this, he intends to have King Zeal use a weapon known as the Chrono Break on Gaia in the distant past, when it won’t have the strength to resist.  The Chrono Break is a weapon designed to instantly banish any being from linear time to the DBT by targeting their spirit energy at a specific instance in time, usually that of the being's birth.  It was being developed at Calasperan, but it was lost in time somehow.  This is the team’s cue to find the Chrono Break before Lavos’ minions do; if they fail, all will be lost.  And when I say all, I mean ALL, as you can read from the story above.  The only question is "how distant in the past does he intend to use it?"  Or, more practically "when was the Entity born, and where did it come from?"  

After learning all of this, the party is shocked and awed, and rightfully so.  They take a bit of time to think while Belthasar and Melchior study the data on the Frozen Flame and the Dragon Tooth some more.  During this time, cutscenes ensue where the characters philosophize and stuff; four separate yet interlinked conversations take place, against a background music of silence.  Crono and Marle talk about their role in the original quest to defeat Lavos; Marle relates that she was actually the one that started the entire thing off, both in 1000 A.D. with the telepod and in the ruined 2300 with her idealism in believing they could destroy Lavos.  After the Ocean Palace incident, she thought that she should have been the one to die instead of Crono, because she did technically start the whole chain of events, and because she loved him enough.  They discuss how odd it is to sacrifice yourself for someone you love, and how many supposed rules of evolution and psychology that act goes against; Lavos, after all, represents a cynical Darwinistic outlook on life.  Being emotionally attached to someone entails not wanting to give them up, but in the act of dying we surrender all of our earthly possessions, including loved ones.  Crono reasons that he did it not simply because he loved her, but because he was willing to believe that even if death parted them, they wouldn’t be apart forever.  Marle compares herself to Glenn and the Vanguard in terms of being a pawn; something she did unwittingly had vast repercussions, but unlike Glenn, she’s got no one to blame but herself.  In a way, she is also responsible for everyone that died in 2102.  And out of all the characters, Lavos probably hates them the most.  But it isn’t Lavos’ respect they’re trying to earn, now is it?  Robo and Atropos come next, comparing humans’ souls to data and citing the Tesseract and conservation of energy while doing so.  Lucca and Glenn are up third; they discuss love, hate, and how they feel about various people, most prominently including Crono and Janus.  There’s a small hint of romance dropped between the two, when Lucca discusses the overall utility of technology.  Schala and her brother go last, talking about the nature of God and the universe and citing Crono’s experience in the dream timeline, as well as the information garnered from the Frozen Flame on Lavos’ master plan.  Finally, once all these conversations are done, the team meets up again to discuss the plan for retrieving the Chrono Break.  Crono relates that he found Sorin in King Zeal’s lab.  That’s presumably where the Chrono Break was being developed; they all decide that he’s the key to finding it.  And he is, just not in the way they’d expect.  However, in order to find Sorin, they have to find the Black Wind.  This is precisely what they set out to do, and this time they intend to shut the black ops group down for good.

Scenario 13 – Hearts of Men and Angels

Unfortunately, they can’t just waltz into Black Wind headquarters…or can they?  The Vanguard has finally done something good for the party; they’ve negotiated a temporary cease-fire with the Porre government, citing the El Nido breakaway as well as the increasing reluctance of both sides to war.  The degree of peace that's able to be negotiated will be determined again by the choice you made as Glenn earlier, and it'll also affect a boss battle this time, too.  The party has been invited to a state dinner at Porre, as well as to tour their military facilities.  Is it a trap?  Of course it is.  But it’s also an opportunity to gain valuable intelligence and possibly even infiltrate the Black Wind.  However, once they get into the facility, Porre double-crosses them by slamming down blast doors and enclosing them; the party reasons they’d have to have something bad up their sleeve to do that.  That they do; an insane Sorin comes out babbling stuff about Lavos and his own broken heart and tears, and swinging with all his might.  This is the final battle with Sorin, and he’s a tough customer; he’s one of the very last bosses in the game, and has one of the highest HP totals out of anyone, but the strength of his attacks varies with your choice in Scenario 8; if you chose peace, his attacks will actually be weaker, though he'll drop the same thing every time.  He’s so far gone into madness that Lavos’ energy has actually mutated part of his body and given him ludicrous strength.  As if that wasn’t enough, Porre is pumping the air out of the room through vents, so there’s a time limit on the fight.  (Don’t worry, there’s a Save Point almost immediately before it.)  Crono and his friends defeat the mad Sorin in the nick of time.  The air, unfortunately, is still being pumped out of the room, but William Ishito orders the controller to let them out.  The controller objects, but William tells him that incapacitating Sorin was the chief objective here, and makes some very threatening remarks towards the other officer to be carried out unless he lets them out.  The guy complies, and Ishito is able to successfully sedate Sorin and revive the Chrono Crew.  He then explains everything about Black Wind and Sorin; first of all, he restates that he doesn’t agree with Porre’s current, warlike regime.  William then tells the party that the reason he had Sorin admitted to the program was because he and Sorin had been best friends for a very long time.  It was only recently that bad things had begun happening.  Sorin had grown increasingly disturbed; he felt as if his own heart was possessed by that of a demon.  One day, he just snapped; he murdered his wife, his two children, and many others before Porre army personnel managed to capture his raving, shrieking self.  He was slated to be executed for his crimes, but saved by his entry into the Black Wind program as a test subject.  This was a result of William Ishito pulling some strings; their benefactor had just granted them the technology for bionic implants.  Ishito felt that Sorin’s mind could only be refocused in this way, so he had the operation done; however, he was wary of any secret orders the benefactor might have hidden in the implants’ programming.  They still don’t have any data on this, but the team is able to confirm that Sorin does indeed have orders they don’t know about.  The implants endowed Sorin with tremendous reasoning, skill, and power, but all of his emotions had been shut off, and he’d always sensed that a part of his nature was missing.  He took orders only from William Ishito; the Porre government was skeptical at first, but Sorin’s extreme combat performance was enough to let his existence slide and to broker additional deals with their benefactor, known to the party as King Zeal.  However, apparently being exposed to the Elements at El Nido didn’t sit well with him, as he complained about their unsettling effects to William soon after they returned from the archipelago, as well as a presence he hasn’t felt in a very long time, but believes has always been there.  Shortly after that, he went nuts and started killing Porre personnel, forcing them to trap Crono and the gang into fighting them; Sorin had become a liability rather than an asset.  The Elements represent the planet’s power, while the technology in his body represents the will of Lavos; the two magnify opposite sides of him, causing internal chaos that his technology cannot control.  Going from that, as well as what Crono saw in Dyasavah’s lab, they ask William to ask Sorin about the Chrono Break.  Upon doing this, the party’s suspicions are confirmed: Sorin IS the Chrono Break, or at least the Chrono Break’s power has become suffused into his own.  Sorin holds the Chrono Break inside of him, in place of a heart, for reasons even he does not know.  This explains why he was unable to kill Crono, Marle, and Lucca way back in Scenario 3 (flashback included for convenience).  According to the Frozen Flame, the Chrono Break banishes an entity from all timelines and permanently casts him into the Darkness Beyond Time.  However, if Crono, Marle, and Lucca were banished from history, the Frozen Flame never would have escaped the Ocean Palace and resurrected King Zeal, which would mean that Sorin would never get altered or get the Chrono Break and thus he would not have been able to banish them.  It’s a time paradox across multiple timelines; truly remarkable.  The team reasons that he could have simply tried to kill them physically, but they are, in a way, the cause of his emotional suffering, and thanks to King Zeal he knows this.  Once Sorin realizes that he is unable to make his enemies feel the kind of suffering he feels, he goes into despair rather than anger, because he’s powerless to attack them.  Post-that, he vividly remembers his entire life.  The party pleads for his forgiveness, trying to convince him that life is about more than just pain, and telling him it isn’t his fault, it’s Lavos.  Sorin retorts that no one would believe that he isn’t morally accountable for his actions, but the team believes otherwise, having themselves been on the receiving end of Lavos’ ire.  In Guardia, they’re lauded as heroes for it.  In the end, William is the only one Sorin trusts enough to judge him, and William communicates that he doesn’t know whether to hold Sorin responsible, but what he does know is that he still cares about Sorin.  He knows he probably shouldn’t, and that by most moral standards he’d be shot, but he still does.  Immediately after that, Sorin says something final and very childlike, almost like a five-year-old asking if their daddy’s going to be OK and the doctor just came out to tell them that he died an agonizing death.  He finally just dissolves into spirit energy, which condenses into the Chrono Break.  William Ishito is amazed, but he frankly suspected that something like this was going on beyond his senses.  He promises that he won’t tell anyone of what he’s encountered here.  He has a reason of his own not to; he fears for the mental and even physical safety of his kid brother Norris after what’s happened (yes, this is the Norris from CC).  He also promises to do his best to stop the war, even at the expense of his career, and the Black Wind fiasco ought to forestall it, at least for a while.  Now the team can get back to Chronopolis to have Belthasar analyze the Chrono Break and figure out how it can be used against King Zeal without damaging the timeline.  In the mean time, the player has the opportunity to do five different sidequests before the endgame.

Slated for further development:
 
~The Masamune's curse (setup for CC)
~Toma sidequest
~Ozzie, Flea & Slash sidequest
~Magus sidequest
~Robo & Lucca sidequest, Prometheus circuit
~The Fate of Gaspar, Spekkio and the End of Time (Dragon Tooth's power used somehow to effect this)
~The Future of Calasperan
~Final Battle
~Ending
~New Game +
~Programmer’s Ending

-------------------------

There....whew, that took a long time to proof and edit.  The whole thing is over twenty pages long in Word and contains almost 17,000 words, or the equivalent of just under three chapters of a normal book (average chapter length is considered to be 6,000 words or so).

Note: I've since gone back in and changed stuff in both posts because of mistakes DDK caught me on.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on July 31, 2005, 04:00:07 am
First, a few questions.

Why is Nadia's Bell at Chronopolis?  Unless Truce no longer exists in this time, would it not still be there?  It was a major cultural artifact, after all.

How will the battle at Truce work?  Will there be a large Truce location map?  Will it all be happening at Leene Square, or what?

Shouldn't Schala be a Shadow character, even with her support magic?  Along the same lines, what's with Heaven and Cold elements?  Even if these are more in line with the Japanese version, I don't see the point in changing Lighting and Water at this late date.

Now for some technical gameplay stuff.

Seing as those eight tech slots for each character seem to be at a premium, especially with all the new abilities you wish to include, why not give Marle's *Haste, Lucca's *Protect, and Magus's *Magic Wall to Schala?  This would make Schala's role as a support character more definite and unique.  You might also want to skip Schala's proposed *Cure altogether and just go with *Cure 2 to make room for status effects like chaos, blind, slow, stop, or whatever else you have in mind.

Alternately, maybe Schala could get *Protect 2 and *Haste 2 which affect all party members, or something like that.  (And since *Magic Wall already hits everyone, there could perhaps be a *Shell spell for targeting only one party member, which Magus or Marle or whomever might learn.)  *Heal 2 and a status-repairative spell like *Esuna or *Remedy would also be nice to see.  Or maybe something like *Black Hole, but affecting only a single enemy, or every enemy on the screen (since *Black Hole has an area affect).

Sorry, but I'm extremely interested in the mechanics of game construction, and I could go on about these technical points all day!

Getting back to the story, what exactly is this Oracle thing at Calesperan?

Is there going to be an El Nido world map?  How is this going to work?  Also, please have Zappa appear during the El Nido sequence.  He was the fourth Deva during that time, after all.

Sorry, I just can't get away from the technical stuff.  Just for giggles, I'm going to throw out some ideas for what to do with everybody's single techs.  Feel free to take or leave.

Crono:
 Cyclone
*Lightning
 Slash
 Spincut
*Lightning 2
*Life
 Confuse
*Luminaire

Marle:
 Aura
*Ice
 Provoke
 Charm
*Ice 2
*Cure 2
*Life 2
*QuantmStat

Lucca:
 Hypno Wave
*Fire
*Shell
 SniperShot (You listed this one.  Powerful physical attack?)
*Fire 2
 Mega Bomb
*Sngularity (Instant death for one enemy?)
*Flare

Robo:
 Cure Beam
 RocketPnch
 Laser Spin
 Heal Beam
 RoboTackle
 Uzzi Punch
 Area Bomb
 Shock

Magus:
*Lightning 2
*Ice 2
*Fire 2
*Dark Bomb
*Chant
*Dark Mist
*Black Hole
*DarkMatter

Glenn:
*Cure
*Water
 PoisonDart
*Heal
*Water 2
 Leap Slash
???
???

For Glenn's final two, you have a few possibilities.  *Heal 2 would work.  A super attack like Confuse would be great, but so would an "attack increases as HPs decrease" type of thing.  You could also end with an ultimate Water element spell, something like *Tsunami or *GreatFood or whatever.

Schala:
*Cure 2
*Blind
*Haste
*Slow
*Protect
*Magic Wall
*Stop
???

I would round out Schala's techs with either an ultimate attack spell for her element, or an instant-death-for-all type of deal.  Perhaps *Void or *Absolute 0 or whatever.

Those are just some ideas, and it IS 2:00 in the morning, so forgive me if it sounds... ramble-y.   :D

Oh, and I really like the idea of the Pendant itself being Schala's weapon.  It seems like the most appropriate possible choice.  Great idea.

Anyway, I'd probably write more (yes, EVEN MORE), but I think sleep is calling.

Good work as ever, Hadriel.  Looking forward to seeing more!

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 31, 2005, 04:12:26 am
Truce doesn't any longer exist in 2302 A.D.; everything is under the control of the Central Regime, which is like the U.N. on steroids.  The point is to make it jive more closely with real history without being too blatant about it, since real history doesn't have much bearing on the story.

The battle at Truce is going to be in Leene Square.  

For the demo, the elements probably won't be changed, just as Renault, Roget and Luther will be in 1002 A.D.  It's an eventuality, and as you said it's intended to be closer to the Japanese version.

Technical stuff is excellent; we can't possibly have too many reminders of technical considerations (well, I guess we could, but you know what I mean).

The Oracle at Calasperan is a treasure of ancient Zeal that was lost when the flood overtook Calasperan.  None have dared venture there since, but Crono and the crew visit it because they think it might be able to help determine the source of the threat.  When it turns out that it's their host, they have a giant "oops" moment.

Zappa probably will make an appearance in El Nido.  However, if any of the characters learn too much about the crew it'll contradict CC.

Lucca's SniperShot tech does for her what Spincut does for Crono: 2x the damage.  It's good for either fire or magic-resistant targets.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 31, 2005, 02:02:07 pm
I haven't finished reading this whole thing yet, but earlier we had talked about what magic power Schala would have.  Some said healing power, some said dark, etc.  I think I said dark.  Anyway, I just had another thought.

Schala's been attached to the Mammon Machine...  In CC, she existed in the DBT...  I mean, the girl is practically synonymous with temporal disturbances...  So why not give a 5th attribute to her?  Time.

For reference, I looked up the abilities of the Time Mage in Final Fantasy Tactics for a couple ideas.  Plus, since we know we're taking out some of other characters' abilities (like one of the CML characters had a Haste spell), we could reassign it to Schala.

Time Mage's abilities in FFT (and effect that it would translate to in CT:CE)
Haste (Haste on 1 party member)
Haste 2 (In FFT, this was just like Haste but couldn't be Reflected.  In CT, this would probably be Haste on whole party)
Slow (Slow on 1 enemy)
Slow 2 (Slow on all enemies?)
Stop (Stops enemy from moving or attacking...doesn't wear off when attacked like Sleep would)
Don't Move (In FFT, this just kept enemies from walking around....not much use in CT)
Float (In FFT, rendered party members immune to earth magic since they floated above the ground, and were able to walk over water and stuff...again, not much use in CT)
Reflect (In FFT it said that this is done by "inverting magic space."  Maybe we could pass this off as a temporal effect)
Quick (Instantly fills one member's AT gauge to full)
Demi (Uses temporal fluxes to manipulate gravity and attack)
Demi 2 (Yeah, more powerful)
Meteor (Again, a gravity thing done by using temporal fluxes)

Hmm...  Thoughts on this?  Some of these really sound right up Schala's alley to me...

Anyway, I'll keep reading the plot :lol:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 31, 2005, 02:29:25 pm
Can someone explain the timeline of Sorin to me? I don't exactly understand him, especially how he goes from being an ally to an enemy..

Also, I don't like the idea of 'having to find the Chrono Break before Lavos'... It's like racing against someone 100 years in the past, if that makes any sense

Also, I don't understand King Zeal's timeline...

"...which Magus or Marle or whomever might learn." - should be 'whoever', but that's besides the point

Maybe I misssed it, but what kind of weapon does Schala use? Pendants?
Also, is there some more explanation for why she's in the base of the Mammon Machine at the beginning? Unless I'm missing something, Lavos abducted her in CT, so why would she be in the Mammon Machine? Also, if she were in the Mammon Machine the whole time, why didn't they just take her out in CT? I always read the first chapter, or whichever one that's and took it as silly and oversimplified, but expected it to be cleared up later...

Also, did anyone read what I had to say about Robo and Atropos? I think it's pretty valid...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 31, 2005, 07:03:33 pm
Racing against someone 100 years in the past becomes a lot more viable when you don't even know what year the target is in.

Sorin is ALWAYS an enemy.  Only at the end of his life arc does he find redemption.

We have no idea what happened to Schala between CT and CC.  Assumably, Lavos did abduct her, but once his Pocket Dimension was destroyed his post-1999 self went to the Tesseract.  It's conceivable that Schala could have been puked back out into reality post-that.

King Zeal died when the floating Zeal crashed down in CT.  Thanks to Team Crono's interference in the Ocean Palace, there was enough of a delay for him to evacuate, but everyone he knew and loved died, and he assumed that so did Janus and Schala.  That ripped his mind apart and made him a perfect candidate for Arbiter.  He wished Calasperan back into existence and started carrying out Lavos' schemes.  At the end, though, he finally manages to break free of the Frozen Flame's hold on him, like at the very end during the final battle.  We're still discussing the precise dynamics of this, as well as the Flame's eventual fate.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on July 31, 2005, 07:07:23 pm
Maybe the key there would be in him finally realizing that in spite of the illusion of Calasperan, that Schala & Janus are not an illusion, that his beloved children really DIDN'T die.  This would probably have a positive effect on him, snapping him back to reality at least to some degree.  And Hadriel, what did you think of my idea above regarding Schala's powers?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Legend of the Past on July 31, 2005, 07:08:14 pm
Hmm, Hadriel, ZeaLitY, any idea when the full game's released? And, how much of the resources (Music, new sprites, maps and whatnot) have you gathered?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 31, 2005, 07:55:25 pm
I guess I really didn't understand that 'race against someone 100 years in the past' thing... Say Crono and Co. are in 1000AD and the Chrono Break sits in 600AD. Lavos obviously didn't get the Chrono Break already, or it'd mean the crew's disappearance, so why is there any threat of him finding it? So, if it wasn't found by Lavos by the time that Chrono and Co. decide to find it, Lavos will never find it.. and if Lavos did find it in 600AD, why can't Chrono and Co. go to 599AD and get it?

About Sorin: Isn't there a part where the crew finds him in 11998BC (I think that's the year), where the land's still frozen and Zeal is still afloat, they sit around a campfire with him, and then eventually try to take him to Chronopolis?

About King Zeal: I understood that much about King Zeal (err, I didn't know about the ending stuff, but that's besides the point); my question was meant to be focused on how Chrono and Co. defeat King Zeal in the Flame's version of Zeal (when it was up 2 years later than it should've been because King Zeal used the flame), and how he lives on in Calasperan... I forget exactly what happens in Calasperan, but I got the impression that the crew defeats King Zeal several times throughout the game, and he somehow comes back each time (maybe that was why I thought he had to be erased from time)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on July 31, 2005, 08:23:57 pm
Quote from: Shadow_Dragon
I guess I really didn't understand that 'race against someone 100 years in the past' thing... Say Crono and Co. are in 1000AD and the Chrono Break sits in 600AD. Lavos obviously didn't get the Chrono Break already, or it'd mean the crew's disappearance, so why is there any threat of him finding it? So, if it wasn't found by Lavos by the time that Chrono and Co. decide to find it, Lavos will never find it.. and if Lavos did find it in 600AD, why can't Chrono and Co. go to 599AD and get it?

About Sorin: Isn't there a part where the crew finds him in 11998BC (I think that's the year), where the land's still frozen and Zeal is still afloat, they sit around a campfire with him, and then eventually try to take him to Chronopolis?

About King Zeal: I understood that much about King Zeal (err, I didn't know about the ending stuff, but that's besides the point); my question was meant to be focused on how Chrono and Co. defeat King Zeal in the Flame's version of Zeal (when it was up 2 years later than it should've been because King Zeal used the flame), and how he lives on in Calasperan... I forget exactly what happens in Calasperan, but I got the impression that the crew defeats King Zeal several times throughout the game, and he somehow comes back each time (maybe that was why I thought he had to be erased from time)


There's a threat of him finding it because of the flow of Time Error; just as Lavos has the opportunity to go find it, so does the Crew.  Whoever wins that fight will determine the history from that point.

That part with Sorin that you named doesn't exist anywhere in the plot, nor do I think it's been discussed here.  It might have been one of the original ideas.  

Zeal is still down in 11,998 B.C.  You didn't read the part about the Zealian Schism; Calasperan is "ancient Zeal" and the Zeal we see in Chrono Trigger is the secessionist state.  King Zeal stayed behind in Calasperan after the floating Zeal rose; Calasperan is what he dreamed back into being with the Frozen Flame.  King Zeal is only actually fought in the end.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on July 31, 2005, 11:53:41 pm
ugh... I just made this post, went to dinner, then came back, thinking that I'd already submited the reply, and exited >_<


I guess I got the Sorin/extended Zeal mixed up, while they were seperate events, but they were both definitely in the first post of this thread, and I assume they're also in the new compilation post

Here they are (quoted from the first post):
Quote
Storyline 12

All this time, Belthasar is relaying messages of pure bewilderment, and confirms that they are in the real 11998 B.C. The citizens of Terra Cave confirm his greatest fear -- that this is a time in which Zeal still soars in the sky as the crown jewel of human achievement, and the Earthbound are relegated to the cold planet. Belthasar notes that the events of 12000 B.C. must have been somehow averted, and that the salvation of Zeal has ensured that the Ice Age never relents, and human society never evolves on the ground past the hovels of the Earthbound -- at least not for thousands more years. The party immediately travels to Zeal via Skyways, though they must battle guards stationed there. They make their way to Zeal Palace, and find Queen Zeal -- though she is still infatuated with Lavos, she remembers nothing of the events of Chrono Trigger, but nonetheless is joyful at the chance to beat some trespassers into the ground. After she is dispatched, she hints at where she is retreating; a Skyway gate is left in her wake. The party uses it, and travels halfway across the globe to the Royal Court, a small island with regal gardens and a second throne room; the gardeners inform the party where they are, though they wonder how they arrived. Inside, upon the second throne, sits King Zeal. He immediately welcomes the party, hoping that they've had a pleasurable stay in Zeal; the party immediately begins to question his living, history, and why Zeal has remained afloat. Zeal simply notes that he took some measures to avert all that nasty history, including instating clone versions of all the citizens, including Schala, Janus, and Queen Zeal. Schala/Magus and the party are horrified, but King Zeal merely welcomes them to enjoy a residency in the eternal kingdom of Zeal, holding that the world they knew will be erased as Zeal continues to fly, and the Ice Age below never ends.

The party insists on further knowledge and confrontation, but Zeal seems to not want a fight. Eventually, he retires to a balcony, with the view of the boundless sky below. The party follows him here; he once again tells them to have no worries, and live forever with him. A party member will have none of this, and physically attacks King Zeal. Thus begins a large battle; King Zeal is mostly a spellcaster, not wishing to soil his own hands. After being defeated, he collapses on the ground, muttering incoherent things, and blinks out of existence. The party, dumbfounded, begin to check the balcony, but Belthasar radios in and informs them that the death of King Zeal is serving as a trigger in time; however, explosions instantly radiate from the air and island; Belthasar notes that he cannot extract the party, but is dispatching the party's other members in an attempt to reach them while still retaining a grasp on the new dispatches, thus being able to pull them back. This fails; the entire party is caught in the maelstrom, and black out, the last vision being the figure in shadow in the sky.

Storyline 13

They awake on the ground, very injured; the must find shelter soon, which comes in the form of Zealian ruins buried long ago; they still contain a warming, magical aura. They fight a few automated guards and eventually reach the repository; there lies the Porre assassin. They have a long dialogue; the Porre assassin reflects on the erasure of his commands, and his gaining consciousness. He notes that after trying to stop the party from receiving the Epoch, he told Porre of their time traveling, and was given the instruction that should he be in a position to influence the past, he should do it for Porre's favor. After the events of 602 A.D., his human side grew discontent. He desires to come to Chronopolis with them. While around the fire, they discuss things, and reminisce of their journeys. As they're about to retire Belthasar bursts onto the scene, and is hugely happy they've been found. He notifies them that though the trigger of King Zeal has undone Zeal's continued survival, it will probably only be a matter of time before further ripples in the water of time effect catastrophic changes. Crono, Marle, or Lucca inquire as to what will happen in the modern time; Belthasar begs them to simply act out of faith, and continue the journey.

Before extracting the party, Belthasar reveals that the data taken from the Zealian volumes, their battles and encounters in the new Zeal, and temporal searches have yielded a few theories. He notes that he'd better not jump to any conclusions, but that the fate of the world rests on one man -- Gaspar. In all the tested scenarios in Chronopolis, knowledge that Gaspar retains is integral in rectifying the problem in time; the party is quick to ask where he can be found, but Belthasar regretfully states that he has disappeared from the scope of history. After the party transports back to the End of Time; the Porre agent has an adverse reaction to the magic being used to transport him and his damages, causing him to skew off into an unknown period.


Storyline 12 is where Zeal (not Calasperan) remains afloat, and 13 where the party meets Sorin, talks to him, and tries to bring him back to Chronopolis (but I think that was before you or whoever decided upon 'Sorin', so it's just 'Porrean Assassin/Agent')

Are there are articles written explaining Time Error? I haven't seen anything as of yet that fully describes it, so far all I've seen is basically, "Time NOT flowing is blasphemous, so there's Time Error"

Also, how do you comment on articles on the main site? I tried logging in using my forum account/password, but it says that my account doesn't exist, and I can't find a way to create an account.
Sorry if that's off-topic, but I'm not sure where to ask...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 01, 2005, 12:55:09 am
Hadriel:  Oh, I understand the story regarding the rise of the Central Regime.  I simply didn't get why the Central Regime rising should cause the nonexistence of Truce.  Sure, Guardia 's existence as an independent state might end, perhaps, but why Truce itself?  If Truce does not exist, then what habitation is present on the northern part of the Zenan mainland?

To be clear, I am not trying to talk you out of anything you have already decided to do!  I guess my concern is that I think you can go too far here, what with, like, redrawing the map of Zenan, or what have you.  For example, Cross has established explicitly that Medina still exists in 2400 AD.  While any number of possibilities present themselves, I took the explicit mention of Medina as Kato saying to us that 2400 AD, though unseen, would be at least as recognizable to us (from OUR vantage point, basically looking over the sholders of CML in 1000 AD) as, say, 600 AD or 1999 AD.  If Truce itself is absent....  I don't know, that just seems a bit far to me.

I also took the mention of Medina as indication that the demi-humans of El Nido were descendants of Zenan's demi-humans/Mystics.  Seems an obvious connection to me, though it seems like no one agrees with me on this.  :P

Anyway, was your thought that Truce was destroyed in the nuclear war?  'Cause I don't think even Nadia's Bell could survive that.   :D

Also, I must say that I really don't like the idea of renaming the elements.  Not when they were so named in the official English translation, and this project is basically a sequel to THAT particular work.  I mean, surely you wouldn't rename Magus to Jacky (shudder).  Translation purist-ism has always struck me as totally pointless.  Trigger, as we know it, exists in a particular fashion.  Why mess with that?  What does Japanese pureism actually accomplish?  How does it enhance the experience of the gamer?  How does it NOT strike pretty much every gamer as alien, intrusive, or at least funky?

As for the technical stuff, I'd be very interested in hearing from the folks behind Temporal Flux on this.  Depending upon the way Trigger is coded, it may not be possible to assign, say, Poison or Blind status to a new single Tech, because Trigger does not have any such abilities available to the playable characters.  What I mean is, Poison status may be coded to affect playable characters ONLY.  Maybe the game won't understand what you're trying to do if you try to apply it to an enemy.  These sorts of issues really should be addressed now, I think.  If it turns out that the things you plan on are impossible, it's best to know about it now, so that some new scenario can be developed.

Hopefully, though, that won't be the case!

Ditto all of this for the idea of creating a new element type for Schala.  The enemies, armors, etc. in Trigger respond in specific ways to the four existing elements.  I'm sure there's no way to create an entirely new element type that all items in the game must respond to in a certain way (as much as I'd love to see the Cross style color/types introduced - Crono/Yellow, Marle/White, Lucca/Red, Robo/Black, Frog/Blue, Alya/Green - I really don't think it can be done).

Glad to hear that Zappa should appear.  You're right that the Dragoons can't play too large a role, lest you upset the existing story.  But if Radius, Garai, and Viper get to be involved, I just feel that Zappa must, too.  It would be weird for him to be absent in anything involving the four Devas of the time.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 01, 2005, 01:02:59 am
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Ditto all of this for the idea of creating a new element type for Schala.  The enemies, armors, etc. in Trigger respond in specific ways to the four existing elements.  I'm sure there's no way to create an entirely new element type that all items in the game must respond to in a certain way (as much as I'd love to see the Cross style color/types introduced - Crono/Yellow, Marle/White, Lucca/Red, Robo/Black, Frog/Blue, Alya/Green - I really don't think it can be done).


Well, all that would probably need to be done in this case is actually to just have space for a 5th graphic "Time" that displays next to Schala's portrait in the status screen.  The techs would have to be coded, yes, but would not correspond to a single element -- as most or all of them are simply statuses such as Slow and Haste, etc.  They would be counted as non-elemental, like Crono's Cyclone, for instance.  So that part shouldn't be TOO big of an issue.

And yeah, there's a lot of stuff Crimson Echoes requires that we simply CANNOT do yet.  But seeing how the impossible a year ago is now simple, we're hoping to make the rest of it simple too. ;)  ...I HOPE. :shock:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 01, 2005, 01:15:54 am
Guardia's existence even in 2102 is questionable; it certainly isn't around today.  Statistically though, there is almost certainly a city somewhere named Truce.  Either way, though, whatever's around at that time isn't going to survive the nuclear BOOMWIG that happens as an independent state.  

As for changing the elements' names; Heaven and Cold are more physically correct than Water and Lightning.  Luminaire is a White-colored technique in CC, and the water itself isn't what does the damage; its extreme low temperature is.  Water is not a fundamental force in the universe, either.  Energy, and the lack of it, by contrast, determines all things that happen from a physical standpoint.

There's no way we'd ever rename the characters in any different way from the American versions, as our naming conventions are generally better.  Any objections for renaming characters fail because of the existence of Rockman.  The character's name is Rock before he becomes a fighting robot, so calling him Rockman is essentially the same thing as a guy named Joe getting superpowers and then renaming himself Joe Man; it's so incredibly lame that it doesn't even have to be in the same universe to destroy any thought of renaming the characters.

Shadow_Dragon: I have read the original story post in full.  What you just quoted does not appear in the amalgamated pairing of story posts.  

I do sometimes fear that I may be treating the story too possessively or exceeding what authority I have here; that's why I encourage people to voice any and all objections against the version I've pieced together.  I'm thankful that DDK was able to call me on some mistakes I made.

Edit: Zeality and a couple of others are concerned about the Chrono-ness of the story.  I'd like to gauge the popular vote on that; does it seem like something that could conceivably happen in Chrono?  If not, what parts need to be fixed?  Nothing is beyond being gutted and put back together differently; we want the story to be good.

The only specific issue that's been cited so far is Lavos' plan to become an uber-god.  My rationale is that Lavos acts the part of a hidden god anyway, and he has a massive amount of knowledge and capability.  I think it's conceivable that he'd try something like this or at least want to, greedy and amoral as he is.  The objection, near as I can tell, comes from the religious overtones present in the scheme.  I'd argue that there are already plenty of themes in the series proper that are religious in origin, but they're used much differently.  Daniel, for example, has stated several times on both Chronicles and here that he has a bit of an objection to "destroying destiny" in Chrono Cross, because it implies that humans don't need anyone else to guide them; given his beliefs it's a perfectly reasonable stance, and my own experiences haven't looked favorably upon the abilities of humanity to guide itself unaided.  Chrono Cross also didn't have quite the same feel as Chrono Trigger; probably why some people didn't like it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on August 01, 2005, 11:43:31 am
Quote from: Hadriel
Shadow_Dragon: I have read the original story post in full.  What you just quoted does not appear in the amalgamated pairing of story posts.


So was it cut out? In the original, it goes from Storyline 10 (with choosing whom to side with with glenn) to Zeal (12001), to Chronopolis, then to abnormal Zeal (11998), but in the 'amalgamated' posts (stupid dictionary-requiring words) they go from choosing with glenn to calasperan...
However, it was definitely in the original posts.. though I can't tell whether you were trying to tell me that it wasn't or if you were just telling me you'd read them in response to quoting them..
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 01, 2005, 02:46:36 pm
I definitely think this feels like a Chrono story.  As far as the religious overtones, I never got the idea from Cross that they were "destroying destiny."  Destroying a manipulator, perhaps, but not destiny.  (By the way, I am a Christian as well.)  And from Trigger, I never got the feeling that Lavos had controlled the evolution of the humans.  Humans had already (depending on your personal belief) been created/evolved/whatever.  They were already there, though the Reptites disdainfully referred to them as "apes" in a derogatory fashion.  Their minds grew through collective experience (just as we now understand things that even just 100 years ago were mysteries), and their brains "evolved" in intelligence that way.  So I never bought Lucca's idea that they had evolved because of Lavos.  I just dismissed it as, "She's still a human who can be wrong at times, and she's probably an evolutionist to boot."

Dismissing those in my mind, I then ended up feeling that the Entity was really more God than the essence of the planet.  (I'm not about to get into a religous debate, so don't start with me there.)  In other words, in the end, I felt that it promoted humans' dependence on God in that (since it seems the Gates were made by the Entity and not Lavos) without Him, there can't be any way to win out and survive.

So all in all, I didn't really have any objections to the idea of "destroying destiny by changing time" or whatever because that's not really what came across in my perception.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 01, 2005, 05:08:44 pm
It says explicitly at the end of Trigger that Lavos is responsible for the evolution of life on this planet.  Humans in 65MBC were in a very primitive, apelike stage, much like in reality except with broken English added in.  Lucca isn't the only one that has the idea, either; I barely ever use her in my final party.  Chrono Cross repeats this same adage, and calls mankind "children of Lavos."  The Chrono series does exalt free will and choice above everything else; essentially, the Entity is there to lend a sense of "God helps those who help themselves."
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on August 01, 2005, 05:10:16 pm
I did get the feeling that Lavos helped human evolution, but not directly; it wasn't like all the humans picked up mini frozen flames and suddenly learned magic and grew smarter, but Lavos' presence killed off the reptites, allowing the humans to live... Like I don't think Lavos actually possessed or tainted Queen Zeal, but the ability to have so much power did... Lavos is needed to make the humans survive, but in moderation. Now that I think about, something like the Ocean Palace Disasater probably happened in 1999, which would make a great topic for CE if the plot weren't already planned out..
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 01, 2005, 06:06:01 pm
Titanic was released in 1999.  I think that qualifies.  :p
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 01, 2005, 06:12:46 pm
Hey Hadriel, you asked how we see it, and I answered.  The religious overtones played a role in how I saw Chrono Trigger, and since I think evolution is a pile of baloney, that's how I interpreted what was shown.

Not to mention that I hardly even remember anything from Cross because I was lost through the whole danged thing. :lol:
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on August 01, 2005, 08:30:11 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Titanic was released in 1999.  I think that qualifies.  :p

I saw that and was like "WTF" until I looked at my post
Titanic made me cry... but I was only 9 then, I guess
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 01, 2005, 10:18:14 pm
Hadirel:  I'm going to refrain from commenting too much on the story itself.  I am extremely interested in this project, and I like to give input on particular points, and I am flattered if my opinions are at all considered.  However, this really isn't my project, so I don't think I'm in a position to comment on it in a general sense.  I'll leave that to those more intimately involved.

Whoever:  I worked a bit more on a potential set up for the single techs of the characters.  Feel free to take or leave what you see.  (Of course, if you decide not to use any of my suggestions whatsoever, I certainly will NOT be offended.)  I've included descriptions of the new techs, at least three of which were suggested by others.  Yeah, and I'm a little disappointed that Crono's tech list came out exactly the same as it was in Trigger... but I just couldn't think of a good way to change it.  He really seems to "need" all of his techs.

Oh, and one thing!  Some techs were suggested which may not be possible.  I have only included techs that we KNOW would indeed be possible, assuming that single tech editing becomes doable.  (For example, it's not clear that playable characters could ever inflict Blind or Poison, because no such ability is available to the player in Trigger, but we already know that Slow and Stop abilities are possible, because Trigger already has weapons that inflict these statues.)


Crono:
 Cyclone
*Lightning
 Slash
 Twister
*Lightning 2
*Life
 Sonic Sword
*Luminaire

Twister
(retooled Spincut)

Sonic Sword
(retooled Confuse)



Marle:
 Aura
*Ice
 Charm
*Haste
*Ice 2
*Cure 2
*Life 2
*QuantmStat

*QuantmStat
Water element
20 MPs
Targets all enemies
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 20



Lucca:
 Hypno Wave
*Fire
 Sniper Shot
*Protect
*Fire 2
 Hyper Bomb
 Wonder Bomb
*Flare

Sniper Shot
(retooled Spincut)

Hyper Bomb
(retooled Mega Bomb)

Wonder Bomb
(retooled FrogSquash)



Robo:
 Heal Beam
 Uzzi Punch
 LaserStorm
 Absolute 0
 Thermonuke
 Strong Arm
 Ultravolt
 Antimatter

Uzzi Punch
(retooled RocketPunch)

Laser Storm
(retooled Laser Spin)

Absolute 0
Water element
Affects immediate area.
10 MPs
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 8

Thermonuke
(retooled Area Bomb)

Strong Arm
(retooled Uzzi Punch)

Ultravolt
(retooled Shock)

Antimatter
Shadow element
Affects all enemies
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 18



Magus:
*Lightning2
*Ice 2
*Fire 2
*Dark Bomb
*Chant
*Dark Mist
*Black Hole
*DarkMatter

*Chant
(retooled Provoke)



Schala
*Cure
*Remedy
*Slow
*Cure 2
*Magic Wall
*Stop
*Auto Life
*Holy

*Remedy
curative
2 MPs
Targets all allies.
Removes all negative statuses.

*Slow
negative status
1 MPs
Affects one enemy.
Inflicts "Slow" status.

*Stop
negative status
8 MPs
Targets one enemy.
Inflicts "Stop" status.

*Auto Life
positive status
12 MPs
Targets one ally.
One-time automatic revival to [(Level + Magic) x 5] HPs upon reaching 0 HPs.

*Holy
Lightning element
20 MPs
Targets all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 22



Glenn:
 Leap Cut
*Water
*Heal
 Leap Slash
*Water 2
*Heal 2
 Nirvana X
*Waterfall

Leap Cut
(retooled Slurp Cut)

*Heal 2
curative
5 MPs
Targets all allies.
Restoration = Magic x 8

Nirvana X
(retooled Confuse)

*Waterfall
Water element
20 MPs
Targets all enemies.
Damage = (Level + Magic) x 14


OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 03, 2005, 12:42:16 pm
Just a little suggestion, I don't know what it will be exactly but the final dungeon (the one with the last boss before the final boss) should be some kind of ancient building rising in the sky. There was the Black Omen (with Queen Zeal) in CT which arose from the Ocean Palace, and there was Terra Tower (with the dragon Time Devourer) in CC which arose from Dinopolis...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 03, 2005, 02:15:15 pm
Maybe Lavos could become some weird flying thing and you're exploring his sick innards? =P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 03, 2005, 06:47:49 pm
I like the idea of a floating fortress.  I also like the idea of a living fortress, as Terra Tower did turn out to basically be the body of the Dragon God's final incarnation.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 03, 2005, 10:43:50 pm
Here, a sketch I just did very quickly of Sorin. Sorry about him not wielding the Katars, or whatever they're called, but it's near impossible for me to give a good look to someone standing there with such short weapons. Like I said, just a sketch, so it looks pretty bad, but, oh well.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Sorin.jpg)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 04, 2005, 01:08:42 am
Calasperan's going to fill the role of flying fortress this time around.  

Definitely a nice Sorin sketch.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 05, 2005, 01:46:36 am
Quote from: Hadriel
King Zeal died when the floating Zeal crashed down in CT.  Thanks to Team Crono's interference in the Ocean Palace, there was enough of a delay for him to evacuate


Unfortunately, it looks like we have a problem...  He's already been dead.  Someone mentioned this before but wasn't sure about it.  However, I just stumbled upon it without really looking.  Have a look.  "She" is Queen Zeal.
(http://www.jullinar.com/chronotrigger/king.PNG)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on August 05, 2005, 01:56:57 am
Not really a big deal, especially since this entire portion of the story is no where near the coding stage yet.

Possibly this could be attributed to Lavos' effects on the Queen?  In the original timeline, Lavos was helping to drive her insane, which led to his "accidental" death.  In the new timeline, with Lavos' influence diminished, the Queen does not go as insane, allowing the King to live.  Could probably be revealed by Schala, after talking to some of the fallen Enlightened Ones in 11,998 BC.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 05, 2005, 02:01:00 am
As I envisioned it, he did "die," but he was taken as the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame in the process. Perhaps he simply left no physical remains in "death," or something was a patsy.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on August 05, 2005, 02:04:41 am
In that case, there is no contradiction.  The story outline as recorded above just needs to be changed accordingly.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 05, 2005, 06:45:57 am
Or perhaps it's a cover-up by Queen Zeal to establish her superiority and in the process the superiority of Lavos energy over elemental power.  Whatever the case is, it's fixable.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 05, 2005, 01:35:43 pm
I don't think it should be a cover-up.  Retroactive continuity is bad, especially in a fan project.  I think we should take Trigger at its word regarding King Zeal.  I'd advocate going with Zeality's idea.  In fact, I really enjoyed the way Zeality dealt with this way back at the very beginning.  If I remember correctly, the basic idea was that the king simply vanished from history due to the Flame's meddling.  In essence, he did die, yet he continued to exist as Arbiter.

If I may, I think explaining this point in detail is a mistake.  Any mundane explanation, like it was a cover-up, or he didn't REALLY die, is kind of lame.  I think it's best if this is left a largely mysterious point.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 05, 2005, 02:14:59 pm
I'm with Oswego 100%...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 05, 2005, 06:22:15 pm
I agree.

Oh, and just so people know: the Weapons thread has been updated with six new ones. If I work a little on it today, there should be another six. I figure I'm well over half-done now, though that depends on how many weapons will exist for each.

Furthermore, I do not think I have yet received an answer to this: what is Schala's weapon? At the current moment, I am drawing daggers for her, and have two sketched out so far.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 05, 2005, 06:30:48 pm
Her pendant is her weapon.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 05, 2005, 06:31:58 pm
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
Her pendant is her weapon.


Curses. It was a nice dagger, too. Oh, well, does it merit a drawing, then, or does the pendant remain identical in look?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 05, 2005, 06:34:09 pm
I think they settled on her getting different pendants along the way.  If I remember the discussion right, she starts out with "her" pendant (the Dreamstone one) but it's nicely drained, so it's adequately weak.  She gets different ones throughout the game, and then I think she eventually either returns to the Dreamstone pendant (recharged), or she gets like a Dreamstone+Rainbow Shell+Sunstone pendant or something like that for her ultimate weapon.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 06, 2005, 01:38:11 am
Quote from: Jake-A-Roonie
I think they settled on her getting different pendants along the way.  If I remember the discussion right, she starts out with "her" pendant (the Dreamstone one) but it's nicely drained, so it's adequately weak.  She gets different ones throughout the game, and then I think she eventually either returns to the Dreamstone pendant (recharged), or she gets like a Dreamstone+Rainbow Shell+Sunstone pendant or something like that for her ultimate weapon.


Alright, I'll give some pendant drawings a shot. In the meantime, here are three more weapons (put up here since it seems that no one really looks at the weapons thread.)

Some Red-Hilted Katana (though not THE Red Katana - I just don't have a name for this):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/RedKatana.jpg)

PaxGuardia:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/PaxGuardia.jpg)

CyrusSword:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Cyrus.jpg)
Title: drawings
Post by: Agent 12 on August 06, 2005, 04:35:14 am
Awesome drawings Krispin have you drawn the Masamune or the Masamune after it's been tainted yet?

--jp
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 06, 2005, 08:27:37 pm
Here's a better example of how a manual could look, using some of Janus' weapons.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Magusmanual.jpg)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on August 06, 2005, 10:58:32 pm
Very nicely done. My only worry is that the red text is a bit hard to read in the red flames on the last weapon. Perhaps the text could be encapsulated in a black box with a border or something?

Either way, your work is very proffesional looking.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 06, 2005, 11:23:45 pm
Also, images for the final thing would need to be saved as PNG so you wouldn't have the JPG detail loss. =P  Looks good though. :)  Great job, Daniel.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 07, 2005, 04:51:30 pm
Here is the list of weapons so far, ranked in increasing power - I hope that it’s an agreeable order. I’ve also included a * for the fully complete drawings, and a ^ for those drawn but not yet coloured. I decided arbitrarily that there should be nine weapons for each character. I hope that fits in well enough.


Crono
1 - Lead Sword*
2 - Jade Hilt*
3 - Shamshir*
4 - (Unnamed)
5 - Trusilver*
6 - (Unnamed - looks like a red-hilted katana)*
7 - Geistrand^
8 - Arco Iris*
9 - Ara Dei*

Marle
1 - Yew Bow*
2 - Ivory Bow*
3 - Fail-Not*
4 - HarpString
5 - Alkanost
6 - Kerubim*
7 - Fairy-Queen*
8 - Apollon
9 - Naveed


Lucca
1 - Flintlock*
2 - (Unnamed - looks like a WWII rifle)^
3 - SnipeShot*
4 - QuantaShot*
5 - (Unnamed - looks like an old sub-machinegun)^
6 - (Unnamed - looks like a futuristic handgun)^
7 - (Unnamed)
8 - (Unnamed)
9 - FreeRadicl*

Glenn
1 - ArmingSword*
2 - Quixote*
3 - Nauthiz*
4 - GiltSword?* (Looks like an old Greek sword)
5 - Caliburn*
6 - PaxGuardia*
7 - Galatine^ (archer-sword type)
8 - Cyrus*
9 - Clarent^

Robo
1 - Strainer*
2 - (Unnamed)
3 - (Unnamed)
4 - (Unnamed)
5 - DeathGrip
6 - (Unnamed)
7 - (Unnamed)
8 - (Unnamed)
9 - (Unnamed)

Janus
1 - Grigori*
2 - Totentanz*
3 - Erebos*
4 - Iscariot*
5 - Legion*
6 - Vanitas*
7 - (Unnamed)
8 - Khadhulu
9 - Kronian*

Schala
1 - (Unnamed - A pendant with a jewel)^
2 - (Unnamed)
3 - (Unnamed)
4 - (Unnamed)
5 - (Unnamed)
6 - (Unnamed)
7 - (Unnamed)
8 - (Unnamed - has a star on it, but I am considering not using this drawing)^
9 - (Unnamed)

That is, of the total 63, I have 33 drawn and coloured, and a further 8 drawn but not coloured. It’s getting there. There are some names missing, though, as you can see, especially in so far as Schala and Robo go (they also comprise of almost all the undrawn ones, for amidst them is only 1 drawn and coloured one, and only a further two drawn ones. The hands for Robo are particularly hard to design and draw.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 07, 2005, 05:21:39 pm
I'm happy to see this! Perhaps we can deal with armor in a similar way (that is, not loading you with heaps of drawing, but meeting and fleshing out real lists). It looks like a strong lineup. I'll throw out some ones for Robo. They're off the top of my head and going for limb + sign of strength, so someone else must produce some mythical and meaningful names.

PryingHand
StoneTouch
Impax
Death Grip
Imperator
Piston Slam
SteamPunch
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 07, 2005, 07:46:46 pm
Sweet, I'm not the only one who thought of Death Grip.  Also, I rather liked the simplicity of "Clasp."  This was a weapon name suggested in the early going by someone else (sorry, can't recall who).

As for Schala, is she going to get new pendants along the way, or is her existing weapon simply going to increase in power, as Ayla's fist does?  I'd argue for the latter, because how many items similar to Schala's special pendant can there be?

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 07, 2005, 07:47:27 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Schala
1 - (Unnamed - A pendant with a jewel)^
2 - (Unnamed)
3 - (Unnamed)
4 - (Unnamed)
5 - (Unnamed)
6 - (Unnamed)
7 - (Unnamed)
8 - (Unnamed - has a star on it, but I am considering not using this drawing)^
9 - (Unnamed)


How about:
1 - Dreamstone Pendant (or whatever we want to call the one that she had in CT)
2 - ?
3 - Platinum Gem
4 - Sun Charm
5 - Emerald Bangle
6 - Diamond Teardrop
7 - Jewel of Hope
8 - Dream Lavalliere (I actually put this here without thinking of Dreamstone, but this could be the name for her Dreamstone Pendant after it's powered up again)
9 - Star Of Zeal (If we take Daniel's drawing with a star in it, we can use it here as Schala's Dreamstone+Sunstone+RainbowShell or whatever weapon.  Her uber-awesome one.)

I couldn't rack my brain hard enough to come up with one more...  But see what you think. :)

By the way, just a thought...  In Lunar: Eternal Blue, after Lucia (a sort of Schala-like character in herself) leaves your party permanently, you can later find an artifact called Lucia's Tear or something like that...  (In the remake, I think it was Lucia's Pendant that did this...)  Anyway, when equipped, the item caused that character's attacks to hit 1 enemy as normal, and then that damage number would be cut in half and dealt to all other enemies too.  Was VERY awesome, and pretty much super-secret.

It might be cool to do something like that here too...  Schala's certainly not someone whom you would normally use her normal attacks, and if we make it seem like the Dream Lavalliere is her final weapon...and then she can somehow acquire the Star Of Zeal through a secret sidequest and it would do the same thing as Lucia's Tear above...  I think that would add an interesting dynamic of gameplay for Schala, not to mention it'd be just freaking awesome. 8)  Yeah, it would be ownage, but by the time you can get the item, you'd be pretty much owning everything anyway.  So it wouldn't provide that much of an advantage...until New Game +.  Or better yet, maybe you can only get the Star Of Zeal IN New Game +!  :twisted:   Thoughts?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 08, 2005, 05:53:07 pm
On retconning: Yeah, let's adjust it like you guys said; the Frozen Flame somehow resurrected the King.  As far as its implications for the Sorin scenario, it's been suspected that the Frozen Flame was inside the Mammon Machine.  It can be said that in the Lavos timeline, the Flame was never freed from the machine, but the Masamune did it in Keystone when Crono threw it.  That way, a few pieces have been adjusted to get basically the same end result but with less retcon dumbness.

On weapons: Lucca's unnamed weapon should perhaps be named the Sterling.  Daniel's suggestion that it be a WWII rifle brings this on; the Sterling SMG was standard-issue in that war.  It serves as the basis for the E-11 blaster rifle commonly carried by stormtroopers, so that should give an idea of what it looks like.

I suggested Astaroth a while back for Magus' unnamed scythe, but there's bound to be something better out there.

Schala's pendants already have a great list of names for them.  Only thing that's not been done is the uber-Masamune, the circumstances of which will have to be altered anyway.

On where I've been for the past 4 days...

There are five of us: me, my best friend, another asshole friend of ours from band, a really cheap friend of ours with a crappy home life, and the lamest guy in existence ever.  Together, we comprise a scenario paintball team named the Horsemen of the Apocalypse aka the Power Rangers.  I'm the Blue Ranger because I'm the engineer-type; not only do I dress in blue frequently, my R6 E-force electric marker with sniper barrel, burstfire and autofire is metallic blue.  My best friend who I recently imparted a Chrono addiction to is the White Ranger, and he wields a Tippmann 98 custom with flatline barrel.  The asshole squad captain guy is the Green Ranger, and his Tippmann A-5 comes with autofire and flatline barrel.  Or maybe it's the other way around, I forgot.  The poor guy's the Black Ranger, and I swear he dug his paintball gun up out of the ruins of Lucca's burnt house, because they haven't made that model in like 1000 years.  The lame dude, who we call Mouse, is the Yellow Ranger for 3 reasons.  1) he's an incredible pansy.  2) the actress who played the Yellow Ranger died in a car crash a few years ago.  3) he has to rent guns when we go to play.  We're trying to acquire a specific vehicle to use as a tank; since its position is going to be obvious, we're going to be blaring the Power Rangers theme, One-Winged Angel, the Imperial March, and the Imperial Rage out of a specially installed set of speakers while our armored turret gunners reduce everyone to oblivion.

So my friends were having arguments with their parents.  I'm sort of a calming influence there.  After getting me outfitted for the game, we drove over to the captain's house (read: shitty apartment) with an album full of Chrono music playing, ordered pizza, went to Wal-Mart in the middle of the night, played video games, watched Robin Williams Live on Broadway, drank scotch mixed with Sunkist, Hawaiian Punch, and Tang, set off fireworks on the UTA campus at 3:30 AM, watched Dawn of the Dead, played Republic Commando and Battlefront, and finally drove to the paintball game with One-Winged Angel on continuous loop, bitching out the guys who didn't want to hear it.  It was a fun game, except for the part where I reffed without a mic and got lost in the wilderness.  Oh yeah, and the rashes and heat stroke.  I swear I lost 15 pounds in one day.  After the game ended, we all went to IHOP and pigged out.  Finally, when we got home, nearly dead, I slept for about 16 hours.  Today I finally managed to get some work done on that Atlas Shrugged essay.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 08, 2005, 06:29:50 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
We're trying to acquire a specific vehicle to use as a tank; since its position is going to be obvious, we're going to be blaring the Power Rangers theme, One-Winged Angel, the Imperial March, and the Imperial Rage out of a specially installed set of speakers while our armored turret gunners reduce everyone to oblivion.


Sounds like Kelly's Heroes. You ever seen that movie? It's about some GIs in the second world war who hear about a stache of gold in a bank in France, that's behind enemy lines. They basically go AWOL, and gather a squad about them to get to this bank, and take the gold, before the rest of the army gets there, or the Germans move it. It's pretty funny, actually. The reason I thought of it on hearing this, is that they recruit a tank squad which essentially comprises of hippies (hippies in WWII!) who drive these Shermans outfitted with large tubing on their guns to make them look like they have a bigger calibre, carry paint rounds for their gun (they make the mistake near the end, when they have Tiger cornered from the back, of firing one of the red paint rounds. Pretty funny.) and lastly, they have speakers outfitted on their tanks from which they play music really loud to, as their commander - played by Donald Sutherland -says, calm them down during battle. The one scene where they attack a German army base to 60's music playing from their tanks is quite funny. Anyway, when you spoke of your thing there, it reminded me of this.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 08, 2005, 08:03:53 pm
I have so never heard of that movie.

Anyway, what's left?  I lost track in my absence.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 08, 2005, 11:36:47 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I have so never heard of that movie.

Anyway, what's left?  I lost track in my absence.


Good movie, you should watch it. Clint Eastwood is the main character.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065938/

Anyway... we have almost all the weapons accounted for now, I think. Only two or three pendants, an arm or two, and a weapon of Lucca's, I think.

Now, here is a question. I know you all are trying to keep CE a little bit more quiet because of the C&D orders, but that's getting a little concerned. You see, if SE does want to shut something like this down, the news about it gives them ample time to do so, and the developers ample time to respectfully bow out (like CTR and CTRP.) However, in doing this, we are not affording SE that chance. The end result may be a very annoyed SE if we simply release it, and they have to retroactively try to stop it if they rule it a 'threat' to their profits. Essentially, I'm worried we'd get sued simply because we're keeping it more secret, and planning to release it more quietly. Surely, it gives it a better chance of succeeding, but poses a little bit of a danger for us. And I seriously don't want a multi-million dollar company mad at me. So, perhaps we should be a little more open with it? Sorry, I'm just getting a little worried now that I'm helping with it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 08, 2005, 11:56:52 pm
DivineDragoonKain mentioned this to me on AIM one night, and explained his take.  It's similar to yours, Daniel, though for a different reason.

He said that CTR and CTRP were remake projects built from the ground up.  Crimson Echoes is not.  It's a ROM hack.  Just like those zillions of ROM hacks you see at Acmlm's Board.  According to Kain, Square will take one look at us and say, "Meh, they're ROM hackers...  What do they care about the law anyway?  It's already illegal for them to even HAVE the ROM..."  In other words, he believes they wouldn't even bother us, partly due to the nature of the way we're doing this project.

Not to mention -- and Kain didn't say this, but I am -- even if they did shut it down because of the ROM hack...  we could still just go with RPG Maker XP and get started on that.  I know the purpose of Crimson Echoes is to prove that CT ROM hacking is possible, so it would kind of defeat the purpose, but we're this far into the story already...  Anyway, NO ONE gets bothered about RPG Maker productions.  Ever.  And it WOULD give us greater ease of creating playable Schala, playable Glenn, and the usage of Claado Shou's original music...not to mention even the incorporation of Chrono Symphonic into a few key points if we wanted.

The possibilities don't even stop there.  Chrono Trigger has been hacked...so why not RPG Maker itself?  The things that limit RPG Maker and keep it from doing everything that Chrono Trigger does...even those things could be changed with time.  The ability to use 4 functional buttons (instead of just "Action" and "Cancel") could be implemented with time, etc.

Point is, Daniel and Kain are right...  There's really nothing we're gaining by keeping things quiet.  Although there are some things that SHOULD be kept quiet, just for the fun of surprising our "audience," eh? :)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Shinrin on August 09, 2005, 02:44:55 am
if square enix was gonna shut down a hack project they would have started with ether ff5e, but i haven't really seen anyone stop a hack project. and from someone i know. i'm not 100% sure about this but the snes and games are no longer copyrighted right now. but that's what i've been told by someone. there shouldn't be much to worry about. nintendo didn't stop the 100's of mario hacks out there, why would square worry about CT:CE? i think someone that worked for square noted something about ff6e or other Game translations. (not mention by name or soething but noted that they know.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 09, 2005, 03:21:27 am
I just did another drawing. Not a weapon, though, nor yet armour nor an accessory. I'll colour it, then post it, though I won't say what it is until I'm done. I'm not certain it will turn out as well as I would like, but I'll try.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 09, 2005, 03:24:59 am
Quote from: Shinrin
if square enix was gonna shut down a hack project they would have started with ether ff5e, but i haven't really seen anyone stop a hack project. and from someone i know. i'm not 100% sure about this but the snes and games are no longer copyrighted right now. but that's what i've been told by someone. there shouldn't be much to worry about. nintendo didn't stop the 100's of mario hacks out there, why would square worry about CT:CE? i think someone that worked for square noted something about ff6e or other Game translations. (not mention by name or soething but noted that they know.)


Probably not the case, Shin.  Copyrights last for a good 20 years.  CT is only ten. ;)  And that's IF they don't bother to renew the copyright!  Remember the N64?  It was originally going to be named the Ultra 64, but there was some defunct, no-longer-existent game system back in the stone age called the Ultra, and so Nintendo got shot down on that name, even though it was back in the days of Atari 2600 and the like.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 09, 2005, 06:18:01 am
Well, CTRP technically wasn't built from the ground up; it was a mod for Unreal Tournament 2004.  That's why it's partially shocking; historically, mods have ALWAYS been exempt from C&D orders under the Fair Use Act because they're non-profit.  I visit PCGameMods with regularity because of Jedi Academy, and there are gazillions of mods, maps, skins, and weapons there.  I have skinpacks dedicated to Nintendo, the giant sword pack with the Master Sword and Sephiroth's Masamune, Spider-Man, other Expanded Universe characters, and innumerable others.  Yet none of the companies have ever bothered to do anything about it, assumably because it's good public.  The amount of comments in the vein of "man, this is an awesome (Link/Gordon Freeman/Duke Nukem) skin, I can't wait for the next game" is astronomical.  CTRP could have been nothing else except good public.  The problem I can see with it is far too conspiratorial for my taste, but here it is: perhaps Chrono simply does not fit into SE's current moneymaking scheme of rehashing Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest over and over again.  I'd prefer not to think that was the case.  In any case, I pressured the guys over at CTRP to at least release a few of the things they'd made individually, but so far nothing's happening.  If SE was truly that greedy, they would have shut down every single ROM hack ever.  The problem with ours is the sheer magnitude of it; it purports to not just be another ROM hack, but to be the hack to end all hacks.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 09, 2005, 07:41:24 pm
I don't think there's much chance at all of this project being shut down, or lawsuits being filed, if this project went fully public.

However, I think it would be a terrible mistake to go public so freaking early in the process!

It's bad form to promise something to the public at large, like a completed game, when half the technical issues involved aren't even worked out yet.

Secondly, even if the chance is minimal, I don't think we should play Russian roulette with C&D orders.

As I see it, there is no downside to waiting to go public until the project is complete.  If the complete hack is released and Square Enix doesn't like it, they will issue a C&D.  They will NOT sue.  They must issue a C&D first, and all they can request is that the Compendium (or whoever else) immediately stop providing the hack to the public.  And I say, big deal, because if you wait until the game is finished to go public with it, by the time Square Enix got wind of it, it would be all over the internet, and you wouldn't need the Compendium to go on hosting it.  And my understanding is that, assuming the C&D order was obeyed, Square Enix could not sue anyone unless thhey could prove real and concrete damages in court--which they simply could never demonstate CE or any other mere hack accomplished.

So... let's just keep it under wraps for now, and not worry about any of it once the game is done.

And to respond to what Hadriel says, I think the fact that Square Enix was so emphatic about shutting down other projects is proof positive that they intend to keep the Crono franchise going.  It's totally reasonable for Square Enix to think that the 3D remake projects could eat into the profits of any Crono remake of their own design.  I can't tell you how many people I heard saying things like, "This is even better than anything Square would do."  I frankly take it for granted that at least one more Crono game will be produced.  Incidents like those we're discussing here are as good as proof to me.

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 09, 2005, 09:53:16 pm
I'm starting to colour the picture, now. I'll see how it turns out.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 09, 2005, 09:59:29 pm
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
I don't think there's much chance at all of this project being shut down, or lawsuits being filed, if this project went fully public.

However, I think it would be a terrible mistake to go public so freaking early in the process!

It's bad form to promise something to the public at large, like a completed game, when half the technical issues involved aren't even worked out yet.

Secondly, even if the chance is minimal, I don't think we should play Russian roulette with C&D orders.

As I see it, there is no downside to waiting to go public until the project is complete.  If the complete hack is released and Square Enix doesn't like it, they will issue a C&D.  They will NOT sue.  They must issue a C&D first, and all they can request is that the Compendium (or whoever else) immediately stop providing the hack to the public.  And I say, big deal, because if you wait until the game is finished to go public with it, by the time Square Enix got wind of it, it would be all over the internet, and you wouldn't need the Compendium to go on hosting it.  And my understanding is that, assuming the C&D order was obeyed, Square Enix could not sue anyone unless thhey could prove real and concrete damages in court--which they simply could never demonstate CE or any other mere hack accomplished.

So... let's just keep it under wraps for now, and not worry about any of it once the game is done.

And to respond to what Hadriel says, I think the fact that Square Enix was so emphatic about shutting down other projects is proof positive that they intend to keep the Crono franchise going.  It's totally reasonable for Square Enix to think that the 3D remake projects could eat into the profits of any Crono remake of their own design.  I can't tell you how many people I heard saying things like, "This is even better than anything Square would do."  I frankly take it for granted that at least one more Crono game will be produced.  Incidents like those we're discussing here are as good as proof to me.

OdF


I hope to God you're right.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 10, 2005, 03:03:42 am
Alright, I was thinking, Glenn seems to be the only character now without a drawing, as since he is no longer a frog, his old one no longer matches. So... what about this:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Glenn.jpg)

I do generally quite dislike the more anime style, though.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 10, 2005, 02:05:23 pm
My honest evaluation: I don't think it's too good, except for the sword.  No offense.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 10, 2005, 02:12:58 pm
I think it's okay, although I sense that you can do better.

The other characters already have artworks but I believe Glenn's design should either match the Dragon Ball style of the others (not a very neat idea) or the others should be redrawn with the less anime style (good idea).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 10, 2005, 03:19:46 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
My honest evaluation: I don't think it's too good, except for the sword. No offense.


Hmmm... I had actually thought it turned out rather well. Ah, whatever. It is actually not quite symmetrical, even. Anyway, no offence taken. I tried, though admittedly it was a quick try. I'm not much of an artist anyway most especially in this style - I'm actually surprised that people like the weapons I've drawn - and only draw to back up writing, for the most part.
(Oh, by the way, the sword in the picture is actually terrible. The blade is not even symmetric, and the hilt above the crossguard looks horrible.)

Quote from: Chrono'99
I think it's okay, although I sense that you can do better.


Not in this style I couldn't - that is, I wager, the best I could do. As I said, I don't much like such anime style as it is, and by preference would rather draw more realistic pictures, like the painting in my sig. Relatively, I did it extremely quickly, too, so that might account for it. I wouldn't bother trying again, though. It was just a thing that came into my head the other day to try.

Quote from: Chrono'99

The other characters already have artworks but I believe Glenn's design should either match the Dragon Ball style of the others (not a very neat idea) or the others should be redrawn with the less anime style (good idea).


Well, I tried to match the style as best I could - I did try to keep the colours the same, for comparison:
(http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/6/60/Frog1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/guardian_of_ages/Glenn.jpg)

as close as a green as I could get. But especially faces in it are terribly hard for me to do. Anybody that actually knows and likes anime willing to do try? I'll just stick to the weaponry. That's a measure easier.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 10, 2005, 04:23:39 pm
For the character art, I'm in favor of a style that's as non-Dragon Ball as we can get the artist to make it, because Dragon Ball SUUUUUUUUXXXXXXXXX.  Even chibi characters would be preferable, but honestly a style much closer to realism would be it, IMO.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 10, 2005, 06:13:21 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
For the character art, I'm in favor of a style that's as non-Dragon Ball as we can get the artist to make it, because Dragon Ball SUUUUUUUUXXXXXXXXX.  Even chibi characters would be preferable, but honestly a style much closer to realism would be it, IMO.


Well, as I said, I don't like the DBZ style either. The only reason I attempted it was for a try at continuity with the other existing drawings. Naturally, I lean more more for realism, or attempted realism. At the very least non-anime.

Any chance of getting CuteLucca to do them? She is, I think, the pre-eminent Chrono artist, and does realistic renditions of them very well.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on August 10, 2005, 06:50:22 pm
I think it could possibly work, but I have only one complaint: his head is too far around.  His chin seems to be along the same line as his shoulder, and while it is possible to do, it just seems really... unnatural.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 10, 2005, 09:02:39 pm
Well, as I said, I am not good at drawing in this style. We really should get someone like CuteLucca to do these, if we want people-drawings.

Now, regarding the weapons/armour drawings. I'm getting a little tired of doing them, so I do not think I will be as swift with the rest as I was with the first 40 some. But when will you need them drawn by? I trust I have the ones done for the demo, at least.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 10, 2005, 10:35:22 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
For the character art, I'm in favor of a style that's as non-Dragon Ball as we can get the artist to make it, because Dragon Ball SUUUUUUUUXXXXXXXXX.  Even chibi characters would be preferable, but honestly a style much closer to realism would be it, IMO.

I think I can't say that Dragon Ball suuuxxx because, like, Chrono Trigger's characters have the same style as Dragon Ball... but I too would like a more realistic style (maybe the same as Chrono Cross but with less big and starry eyes).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 11, 2005, 12:04:35 am
Quote from: Chrono'99
Quote from: Hadriel
For the character art, I'm in favor of a style that's as non-Dragon Ball as we can get the artist to make it, because Dragon Ball SUUUUUUUUXXXXXXXXX.  Even chibi characters would be preferable, but honestly a style much closer to realism would be it, IMO.

I think I can't say that Dragon Ball suuuxxx because, like, Chrono Trigger's characters have the same style as Dragon Ball... but I too would like a more realistic style (maybe the same as Chrono Cross but with less big and starry eyes).


That art style is my sole objection to Chrono Trigger.  They could just as easily be rendered more realistically and I'd consider that the definitive version of them.  I was just bitching today at GameStop about Dragon Quest VIII and Toriyama's character designs.  Oh yeah, and how SE owns all the most popular and best RPGs except for maybe KOTOR.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 11, 2005, 12:59:51 pm
Wait (returning to the plot...), so El Nido already exists in the CT:CE timeline? It was created in order to save Schala from Lavos, but during the game Schala isn't merged with Lavos yet... Does Belthasar already know what will happen? and even if so I thought time changes don't happen until they happen? *confused*
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 11, 2005, 01:06:49 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
Wait (returning to the plot...), so El Nido already exists in the CT:CE timeline? It was created in order to save Schala from Lavos, but during the game Schala isn't merged with Lavos yet... Does Belthasar already know what will happen? and even if so I thought time changes don't happen until they happen? *confused*


This timeline is that of Another World, Keystone T-1, which is the default timeline after Lavos' death.  Keystone T-2 comes about because of the interference of Serge.  As this is 1002, that hasn't happened yet.

You're right that time changes don't happen until they happen...this means we need to figure out a way to get around that.  Belthasar will undoubtedly have made all the preparations he needs to for the Time Crash as soon as they learn of the Time Devourer.  That leaves the team's changes to be made.  Here we deal with intent; from an absolute perspective, that of the universe, all changes in time will have already been made.  But what about from the team's point of view?  We also have to consider how "fast" a timeline propagates.  One would naturally assume that any changes made to a timeline are reflected instantly at all relevant points, but as we have Time Error to contend with, changes are made when they are made.  Defeating Lavos was the last change the team made in the original timeline, and thus they visited the ruined 2300 A.D..  Saving Leene and Marle did not happen until Crono, Lucca, and Glenn made it happen; up until that change is made, the original history exists, but as soon as that happens the new timeline is enforced.

All that we know for certain is that FATE was completed in the year 2300.  We will doubtless have to use this to make the El Nido issue make sense.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 11, 2005, 01:09:42 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Quote from: Chrono'99
Wait (returning to the plot...), so El Nido already exists in the CT:CE timeline? It was created in order to save Schala from Lavos, but during the game Schala isn't merged with Lavos yet... Does Belthasar already know what will happen? and even if so I thought time changes don't happen until they happen? *confused*


This timeline is that of Another World, Keystone T-1, which is the default timeline after Lavos' death.  Keystone T-2 comes about because of the interference of Serge.  As this is 1002, that hasn't happened yet.

What I don't understand is how El Nido even exists (with the Acacia Dragoons and Elements). Don't this means the Time Crash already happened and Project Kid is set in motion?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 11, 2005, 01:15:39 pm
It doesn't, by any means. It's the Sea of El Nido, actually. The confrontation will take place on one of the natural islands that were there before the terraformation.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 11, 2005, 01:22:40 pm
Okay, but (I'm annoying today...) then what about the Elements and the Acacia Dragoons? They can't exist without the Dragonians. Does Garai wield the Einlanzer?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 11, 2005, 01:43:55 pm
Shouldn't El Nido instead be called the Sea of Eden?  If this is the pre-archipelago incarnation of the area?  From Cross:

BELTHASAR:  "Originally the whole Archipelago of El Nido was known as the Sea of Eden.  This was because it was where the Dragon Gods resided.  But then FATE sealed away the Dragon Gods' powers, in effect becoming a god itself.  Thus the islands where the new godhead, FATE, existed came to be called the Sea of Eden instead."

Also, I don't see how Elements can predate the Time Crash, since they were of Dragonian origin.

[EXPLORER]:  "Ancient lore reveals that the Dragonites knew of certain land formations they called Power Spots.  There, they are said to have used the natural energy of the planet to generate Elements."

ALSO, isn't Gaea's Navel supposed to be a primeval forest which is inaccessible and totally untouched by man?  Then, how can an element farm exist there?

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 11, 2005, 02:18:46 pm
Yeah, it'll be a barren sea. Good call on the Eden terminology. This will just take place around there.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 11, 2005, 02:55:41 pm
Then rewriting the entire El Nido segment would be good.  Gaea's Navel is the only thing there before FATE terraformed it.

As for the Elements and Dragoons, my bad.  *clonks self on head*
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 11, 2005, 02:56:37 pm
Doesn't need to be rewritten, or at least it shouldn't need to be. All I had was a simple confrontation on an island after the party tracked down the Flame's location to that area. The nightmarish stuff after that doesn't involve the Sea of Eden, so we just see a natural island and then visit it no more.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 11, 2005, 02:58:00 pm
I mean the El Nido version I had down.  Your thoughts' continuity > mine.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 11, 2005, 03:01:23 pm
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
BELTHASAR:  "Originally the whole Archipelago of El Nido was known as the Sea of Eden.  This was because it was where the Dragon Gods resided.  But then FATE sealed away the Dragon Gods' powers, in effect becoming a god itself.  Thus the islands where the new godhead, FATE, existed came to be called the Sea of Eden instead."

Doesn't this mean that it was called so because of the Dragon God's presence? It was the Sea of Eden because of Dinopolis. I suppose it didn't even have a name before those events (the only notable location is Gaea's Navel, the rest is just part of the whole ocean).

If it's possible, I think Radius, Garai, Viper and Zappa could still make an appearance in the story, they just would be normal Porre soldiers instead of Dragoons.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 11, 2005, 04:32:56 pm
El Nido does have to be there in some capacity, at least as a repository of awesome natural resources; otherwise, Porre wouldn't have bothered mustering the manpower to go after it.  Since Antaeus and Serran both refer to "the legend of El Nido" we should probably treat it as, well, more legendary.  This would extend to the knight in the Valle Crimse as well.

Just an idea; when they find the Frozen Flame in El Nido, it could try to spirit them away again, but someone could be carrying some machine from Belthasar that prevents anyone from opening a Gate in the vicinity, and say something to the effect of "yeah, we're getting REALLY FUCKING TIRED of being spirited away and shit."  Then the Frozen Flame runs away like a pussy, and in the process a vital clue is revealed.

Oh yeah, and we can possibly get rid of the whole "two Frozen Flames" deal (what the hell was I on when I made that up?) by having the Dragon Tooth locate the Frozen Flame, or be something entirely different, or something.  We originally pegged it as a high holy artifact of the Reptites.  There are two possible scenarios for this:

1) it's high and holy because it generates heat.
2) it was there before Lavos came along and it's high and holy for some other reason.

There's got to be something cooler than "Lavos' disembodied energy sucker" that we can make up for it; the Lavos mouth kind of defeats the whole point of having the Frozen Flame be a legendary "unstealable jewel", anyway.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 11, 2005, 06:07:49 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
Doesn't this mean that it was called so because of the Dragon God's presence? It was the Sea of Eden because of Dinopolis. I suppose it didn't even have a name before those events (the only notable location is Gaea's Navel, the rest is just part of the whole ocean).


Yeah, it's just a sea with a few rocky crags and Gaea's Navel, surrounded by yet more crags.

You make a very good point about the naming convention.  If it was called the Sea of Eden because of the Dragon God's presence, then it shouldn't be called this in our pre-Time Crash scenario.  Honestly, now I'm thinking we should just call it El Nido.  "El Nido" could be the original name given to this enclosed sea by Porre explorers, rather than a name dreamed up by Chronopolis staff centuries later, as I took it to be.

Quote from: Hadriel
El Nido does have to be there in some capacity, at least as a repository of awesome natural resources; otherwise, Porre wouldn't have bothered mustering the manpower to go after it.


Well, the Flame did land there, and there are myriad power spots there, not to mention Rainbow Shells, so I think having El Nido just be a source of natural resources for Porre is a good one.  We could establish that there are a few basic outposts on the small islands that ARE present (remember that the rather verdant Chronopolis chain of islands does exist in this time), and this is where Viper and such show up.

As for the Acacia Dragoons angle, we don't know how or when the Dragoons were formed, do we?  If not, we could establish that they originated on the mainland, perhaps even as far back as the Middle Ages, and immigrate to El Nido eventually as Porre envoys/guards/whatever, whether the Time Crash has occurred or not.

Honestly, I kind of like the idea of the Acacia Dragoons being the result of a few noble knights in Porre following the example of Guardia's Vanguard....

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 11, 2005, 06:08:32 pm
An unrelated idea...

At an earlier time it was mentioned that Wazuki and Miguel could make a brief appearnance. Yet more recently, I read about the possible inclusion of Garai, Radius, Zappa, and Viper as mere soldiers amidst the Porre army. On thinking about it... if you intend to follow the hallowed Chrono tradition of multiple endings, these could quite easily be reserved as cameos for an ending. Say, deafeat the game around the time when you fight Porre, and the ending is a short scene in which you see these soldiers going about their day amidst the rest of the Porre host.
Title: The Porre Army Cameo's
Post by: Agent 12 on August 11, 2005, 08:39:03 pm
I agree with having the future Dragoons be top knights in the porre army.  This may be in a different post but is El nido going to be only on the overworld map or are there going to be exits on it to explore it further?  

--jp
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 11, 2005, 11:50:20 pm
OK, I made up some new shit for the Dragon Tooth.  Remember all the drunken bullcrap I made up about it having the second Frozen Flame and it being another energy-sucker for Lavos?  Bump that, I ain't frontin' no mo'.  Now there's only one Frozen Flame like the actual writers intended.

Originally we pegged the Dragon Tooth as being an artifact of the Reptites, but then I had to smoke some crack and try to change it.  Well screw that.  Since the Reptites worship it, why wouldn't it be intimately tied to the planet?  The Dragon Tooth could be like the Entity's version of the Frozen Flame; if Lavos hadn't landed, the Tooth would have been what guided the Reptites to become the Dragonians and build all their Yuuzhan Vong creatures and organo-computers and shit.  The Tooth also plays a part in human evolution by carrying out the will of the planet after Lavos lands; accounting for humanity, figuring out how to use us to beat Lavos, and other god-ish stuff.  The Tooth could be the instrument through which the crew, like the Reptites before them, were able to speak to the planet.  They could also complain to the planet about its prejudice against humans, or something to that effect, and talk to it about the assholes that wreck it on a daily basis.  Does that sound awesome?  Because if it's less than awesome, it doesn't deserve to be in anything labeled Chrono.  (Note: I never used Pierre, and I never even got Turnip and all those other gaywad characters that they decided to put in instead of more uber-awesome Magus stuff.)

Oh yeah, I'm going to go back to that second giant story post and delete all the "2 Frozen Flames" bullcrap and fix all associated errors.  The one I'm talking about is at the beginning of page 29.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on August 12, 2005, 04:29:31 am
I never used Pierre,


Except Pierre was, like, liquid awesome when he had his Hero set. =O
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 12, 2005, 12:01:53 pm
...but he was also liquid France.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 15, 2005, 04:00:19 am
Here's an idea.
How about you call the chapter, or part of it, where they suffer the nightmares 'Time of the Dreamwatch'? I've always wondered myself what that term meant, as it had no direct correlation with the game. In fact, I think that when I finished Chrono Cross that was my greatest disappointment. I heard the music before I played the game, and was enamoured of that song above all the others, and intrigued by the name. Ever I assumed it heralded a time near the end where dreams would come into play, where the heroes needed do something through their sleeping minds, watch their thoughts, or something equally mystical, that bore the term Time of the Dreamwatch, and through this the song would play. I was most distressed that, as far as I remember, the song was never used in the game proper: only in the intro and a certain ending.
Thus I think it would be apt to at least give the name something more of use in this game, either for the aforementioned chapter or, more preferably, as a segement for the end. Is there any way you could incorporate such an idea as the Dreamwatch (whatever that might be! Maybe the Dreamwatch is even a place, connected with Zurvan! Just some ideas, I'll think on this more.) into the story? I think it would be an excellent connection to Chrono Cross. The latter game would thus, in its intro, be referring to events that came before, bridging it with Chrono Trigger.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 15, 2005, 06:12:03 am
I don't know if "dreamwatch" was ever an official term though. I believe the official/correct translation of the track name is "The Dream that Time is dreaming", while for some reason unofficial translaters named it "Time of the Dreamwatch" or "Dreamwatch of Time" (not sure)...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 15, 2005, 01:25:03 pm
Yeah, the incorrect ones are "Time of the Dreamwatch" and "The Dream that Dreams Dream," which actually is pretty cool. I gave that one some thought, and the dreams that dreams would dream of are ones of realization; of coming into being.

ANyway, it's "The Dream that Time Dreams." Chrono Cross has a notorious and widespread crappy translation in use EVERYWHERE, like remixing sites. Even Chudah's corner has the incorrect lyrics to the Unstolen Jewel. I tried telling them that and giving them the right ones, but they never replied.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 16, 2005, 05:37:50 pm
While "The Dream that Time Dreams" may be the most accurate translation, "The Dream that Dreams Dream" is simply too cool to pass up.  If it's not too long (probably is), it would make a great end-of-the-game title chapter, ala "The Fated Hour" or "For All Dreamers."

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 16, 2005, 05:52:43 pm
Yeah, it's pretty transcendent. The dream that dreams dream...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 16, 2005, 06:41:41 pm
'The Dream that Dreams Dream' just sounds wrong, however. There is no finesse in the title. Thrice used in a single line... that is overmuch, overwrought, and confusing. I maintain that of all three, Time of the Dreamwatch, inaccurate though it may be, is far best of them all.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 16, 2005, 06:55:22 pm
But what is a dreamwatch? (and how can a Dreamwatch of Time be a Time of the Dreamwatch?)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Oswego del Fuego on August 16, 2005, 07:06:45 pm
Ah, have to disagree with Daniel.  I don't like the sound of "dreamwatch," the word.

Glad this isn't my decision.  :P

OdF
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 23, 2005, 06:26:27 pm
I was just thinking... the Three Vanguards, Renault, Roget, and Luther... it seems to me that this group is an embodiment of misguided zeal. Now, in that regard, should the names maybe reflect this? Renault sounds apt in that way, as it is either that name or one similar that was borne by a very vicious Crusader in the second crusade (remember Kingdom of Heaven, anyone? The red-haired lord who helps Guy.) A knight gone wrong, sort of. The other two, however... You say that Luther is the PR man. Well, Luther in history was certainly zealous, but was not militaristic or condoning of violence (he quite denounced the peasant's rebellion.) I was thinking maybe people closer to Savonarola or Ignatious (if those are spelled aright) - founder of the Jesuits. As far as the other goes... is there some extremely zealous person in history you can find for his name?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on August 23, 2005, 07:50:57 pm
Well, perhaps further plot knowledge will assist. I'm sure you've already read this, but I'll summarize:

Renault is the ever zealous military commander, with an excellent sense of right, wrong, and moral code. However, since war has not been a fact for centuries, his actual power is restrained and his involvement small. His post mainly is responsible for keeping the physical arm of the Vanguard fit, and little else nowadays; since Luther and Pierre hold more real world power, Renault is somewhat of a pawn, who controlled, can influence the soldiers. However, this is not implying he's stupid; he's simply in a position of reduced power and the work of his men is currently at the disposal of Luther or Pierre. His conflict will chiefly be with Luther. When Luther creates a catastrophe just to justify retrieving the Masamune, Renault's going to try and fight him.

Luther is the PR guy, but is a bit of a serpent. He has little care for the Vanguard's actual image, as long as the soldiers are under his thumb. A vain person, he mainly enjoys soaking up the image, appearing at the castle and carrying out projects for mostly his own personal gain. While he holds little regard for the ideals of the Vanguard, and could care less about who this "Glenn" or something guy is, but he is particularly interested in the supposed treasures lying underneath the building. He's especially curious about the Masamune, as he'd love to share in its luster by owning it one day. In his dealings with others, he shows a certain degree of tact, but it erodes arithmetically with the duration of the conversation. He hates being derided intellectually by Pierre, and seeks to avoid him whenever possible. Likewise, he pokes fun at Renault often, simply because Renault's good standing allows him to take the abuse and dismiss Luther. Eventually, Luther will create a catastrophe conspiring with Porre to retrieve the Masamune.

Pierre is the brains of the outfit; a longtime examiner of history, the arts, and other worldly subjects, he brings positive practicality to the table (though his love of books has sapped his taste for action). Born with a quick mind, he's able to turn a pithy phrase in arguments or retorts and manage to defeat his opponents in debate (and anger them as well). Regardless, his experience and knowledge has given him a full belief in the ideals of the Vanguard, especially in the past few years, as he sports a particular distate for Porre's rude insurgencies. While he recognizes that Porre can be controlled, given half the chance (and some disorienting drink), he'd gladly orchestrate a chain of events to humble the nation into recognizing its parent kingdom publicly (not militarily).

Pierre recognizes that Porre's main beef is that the Kingdom of Guardia is tying up the world's wealth in a defunct, stolid, and stagnant organization, and that splitting the kingdom and its dated laws would provide several nations with the freedom to mobilize their own research, social structures, and advancement. Pierre might have subscribed to this belief had he not had utmost confidence in the Kingdom of Guardia, doubly reinforced by Crono's introduction to the royal family. Pierre believes the sort of enlightened despotism of a single kingdom and ruling body acts as a catalyst to human advancement, provided the rulers are in good form and some kind of council exists to check one another. He also knows that fragmenting Guardia at this point in scientific research and fomentation would set the world back several years, despite the freedom, and holds that social evolution will take place regardless of whether Guardia splits or not in the future.

Pierre will offer the party advice and try to keep them in line, and will also offer the important plot above.

Can we think of better names given that information?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on August 23, 2005, 11:46:09 pm
Interesting...
Well, like I said, Reynault seemed, and indeed still does, a very good choice. It fits the feel, and has a little bit of allusion in it.
As far as the other two...

Luther... sounds actually somewhat like Goring or some other Nazi. But that's too well known a name. Maybe its just that Luther has a positive connotation for me, which makes it sound odd. Do what you will. I'd recommend finding another one, but as far as sound and look of the name (yes, there is such a thing as the 'look' of a name, and sometimes words much be chosen as much for their look on the page as their meaning. No, I'm not crazy.) I honestly can't think of anyone at the moment who historically was like that. We would need an advisor acting for some regend who cared more for his own glory than for the kingdom. I know there must be many like that in history, but no name comes to mind. Suggestions, anyone?

As for the last... I will again claim at least a temporary fail of memory. Pierre, if no others of allusive quality are found will, as Luther, work fine I think as a Scholar's name.

By the way, so everyone knows: I'll be gone in Chicago for a week or so. So I haven't just up and left.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on August 31, 2005, 06:30:07 pm
I agree with Daniel. While I personally like the name Luther, there is something about it that seems too pure. Perhaps "Lucius" would be better suited for the character?

After all, the name bares close resemblance to Lucifer, who was "a bit of a serpent." As well, (hate to bring this up) but Lucius Malfoy of Harry Potter fame, a man who hid behing his good name, all the while having a more sinister agenda.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on August 31, 2005, 06:57:03 pm
If we don't find an "awesome" name, I propose that we just choose a punny name or a stupid name based on a condiment. This is a Chrono game so it's pretty much mandatory even if it's stupid (Doreen, Ozzie/Vinegar, Solt, Peppor, etc.).
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: teh Schala on August 31, 2005, 08:24:46 pm
What was Doreen based on? o.O
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Exodus on August 31, 2005, 08:27:52 pm
The Japanese translation is "Dream".

Hence, in CC, the name for the Mastermune would be GrandDream.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on August 31, 2005, 08:58:40 pm
Heh, Lucius is hardcore.  We should use it somewhere.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 02, 2005, 06:15:20 pm
Quote from: Janus Zeal
After all, the name bares close resemblance to Lucifer, who was "a bit of a serpent." As well, (hate to bring this up) but Lucius Malfoy of Harry Potter fame, a man who hid behing his good name, all the while having a more sinister agenda.


I'm only guessing, but I think that it is a similar name. Lucifer means light-bearer, so maybe Lucius means 'bright' or something like that. Only a guess, though. I think there is someone on these forums that knows Latin that could tell you for certain.

Since I'm back, perhaps I'll give some thought - or rather research through a history book - for some apt names for these two.

Oh, and about the demo... ZeaLitY was mentioning on the other thread where he bowed out of being project leader that the pacing of the beginning segments strikes him as ill-paced and amateurish. I'm speaking in reference to this on this thread, though, as it ties into the game itself rather than that topic. Pacing... I think this is largely due to the fact that there are no mandatory battles within this whole prologue, as it were - nor even much in the way of optional ones. Even Chrono Trigger, before coming to the fair, allowed you to battle creatures in Guardia forest. I think, maybe, it would be apt to make the journey through the woods of south Zenan to be non-overworld, and rather like the woods of Guardia. It would slow down the running about, at any rate, and allow for some initial experience gathering. Perhaps a boss could even appear in this area, though I think that would be a little early - actually fighting the Porrean assassin in Guardia castle, before he flees, may make for a better grand combat.
As another pacing suggestion... why not make the letter an optional thing that gives you an item or something, and only make the pie and sword a required thing. Actually, it seems rather odd that his mother should be in the possession of a sword, and be giving it to such a prince-hero as he is. If naught else, it should be one from display in his room. As such, though, I think that it would be best if he retrieves it from someone or another from Porre. No... on second thought, thought the letter should remain optional, the sword should be picked up from Melchior. It would require a visit to him, and would make a plausable place for a sword to be retrieved from. I think those would work together to pace it better.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Exodus on September 07, 2005, 11:44:27 am
I've just made a place for players to level up a few days ago.

I liked your idea of using Fiona's Forest as a base, so that's what it consists of.

DDK is on the enemy event coding now.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on September 09, 2005, 08:02:09 pm
Question about Schala's move list: As it stands now (unless I've missed something) Schala has few damaging attacks. While this may fit her character, perhaps a few "damage all enemies" double techs with Janus could be created.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 11, 2005, 03:17:44 am
A comment about the words written on the pyramid that I translated into Greek for the demo (to the best of my ability). I was learning some actual Greek today (that is, declensions and the like, rather than just the words), and I think, maybe, a better translation for it would be something like HO OURANIOS ESTIN HUPO TAYN PURAMIN; the order of these words is, I think, irrelavent. What is there now is OURANIOS HUPOPURAMIS. Now, ZeaLitY had wished it to mean something like 'under here lies heaven'. That was the closest I could come up with at the time, and means essentially 'heaven under-pyramid'. However, this new phrase takes into account (as best as I've been able to figure with what I learned today) the noun cases, particularly nomnative and accusative. Ouranios was correct, but the word for 'pyramid' would be in the accusative (or, at least, for a translation of 'heaven is under the pyramid' which is what I used now.) - I think. Estin is the verb 'to be'. I've assumed that heaven, Ouranios, is masculain, thus the 'ho' (technically 'o) preceeding it - though I could not clearly discern it in the lexicon. Pyramid, however, appears to be feminine, thus the change in ending - I hope I did that aright - and the addition of the article 'tayn', which is feminine accusative. Note that on all of these I have gone phonetic, and neither used the standard transliteration of Greek, nor the actual spelling. The standard spelling would use 'y' for several of the u's, and a simple 'e' for tayn (thus 'ten'). However, hypo is not haipo or hippo, but rather different in sound, and a u better represents that. Likewise, the e is not a short e, but an eta, and that is a long e, which sounds like ay - I figured an ay is thus more accurate.

Anyway, long story short, the revised writing should read thus, to the best of my current knowledge (and meaning 'heaven is under the pyramid'):

HO OURANIOS ESTIN HUPO TAYN PURAMIN

(Oh, and the word order is largely irrelevant, I think, as the endings show the sentence structure. I'd leave 'heaven' at the beginning though, as that seems to emphasise it more, which I believe is the desired result.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on September 16, 2005, 05:18:39 pm
OK, finally, here are some plot-related thoughts from me:

I've been debating coming up with an entirely new and different scheme for Lavos.  As one can see, basically every other RPG is about becoming "the ultimate being" or whatever, so I'm thinking, what fits with Lavos' motivation but is also different from what's been done before?

Also, Exodus has raised some questions about King Zeal; namely, the concept of him as the villain.  I need posts from all plot advisors to relate their thoughts on that.  This project needs a kick in the tailpipe.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 16, 2005, 09:09:41 pm
Thinking about the Greek some more, I'm again not fully certain. What I'm not sure about is the case that the words take after 'under'. It seems that both accusative (which is what I last used) and dative is alright and mean the same thing, but I'm a little unsure now. Moreover, I think that using 'is' in this case is a little lame. Perhaps 'sits' is a little nearer to 'lies', because it can mean, in some respect, to rest or be somewhere. In that case, the sentence should now read:

HO OURANIOS KATHITSEI HUPO TAYN PURAMIN

That is still retaining the accusative case... I think. Pyramid may not end 'IN' in the accusative female, but it's an awkward one being of Egyptian descent. Now, it's an odd thing that the lexicon does, and I'm at a loss to explain it. It gives the article as being an aspirated eta (that is, 'HAY'), which usually signifies something as female (in the very basics of Greek that I have learned so far, at any rate.) However, it also gives '-idos' after it which, adding it to the word gives 'puramidos', which has a distinctly masculine ending. This, I suppose, would thus be a feminine word (because of the article), yet following masculine declension rules. But since I know so little Greek, I really don't know how this works. The closest I found to an explanation that made sense to me is that, apparently, some nouns of the third declension that end with a vowel look similar to 'puramis', a notable one being 'polis' - one that also has the usually female article 'HAY'. Now, the accusative for polis is polin. Assuming that pyramid follows the same declension (though this is just a guess), and that it is indeed in the accusative after the world 'under' (again, a guess), the sentence would looks as I wrote just before this paragraph. The translation now would be 'Heaven sits under the pyramid'.

ADDENDUM:
Alright, I just found the perfect word for this: 'HUPOKEIMAI', which essentially means 'lie under'. Unfortunately, the only verbs I'm familiar with are those ending in 'ei' (such as the 'to sit' KATHITSEI... which is rather he/she/it sits, with KATHITSEIS being second person and KATHITSOH being first person); this one is a little foreign to me at the time, and Perseus lists it as being a specific sort of form. From what I can make out, most would fit this instance that we need it for... but I'm not sure if it's in the right 'person'; I think this is first person, but we would need third, and I can't conjugate it. So I suppose there's the option of leaving the verb 'to sit' in place as I have it - and am quite certain is correct - or guessing and either putting in HUPOKEIMAI as it is (of course, it negates the need for the other HUPO) or pasting on another conjugation such as 'EI' onto the end; these latter two would likely look horrendous to anyone that actually knows ancient Greek so, until I can figure out just how this would be conjugated, I would rule in favour of keeping KATHITSEI in there.

ADDENDUM II:
I asked my father about the word Pyramid, and he, after looking through some declension tables, is of the opinion that it rather follows some odd irregular form of the third declension, and should rather be puramida. Thus for another time, the line should be:

HO OURANIOS KATHITSEI HUPO TAYN PURAMIDA

Or, you can put the verb kathitsei at the end, if you wish.
I know, this is all a minor note. But it's rather fascinating for me, all this Greek, and quite like figuring through it.

Quote from: Hadriel
OK, finally, here are some plot-related thoughts from me:

I've been debating coming up with an entirely new and different scheme for Lavos.  As one can see, basically every other RPG is about becoming "the ultimate being" or whatever, so I'm thinking, what fits with Lavos' motivation but is also different from what's been done before?

Also, Exodus has raised some questions about King Zeal; namely, the concept of him as the villain.  I need posts from all plot advisors to relate their thoughts on that.  This project needs a kick in the tailpipe.


How about this: to gain ultimate understanding and knowledge. The purpose of his expansive power is not to rule as a tyrant, but was rather to learn about all things in the universe: a quest of self-betterment, as it were. Well, somewhere along the line, he went too far, that is plain, and stepped out of the boundaries set on such things.

Essentially what I'm saying is, why not make him an intergalactic Dr. Faustus? You would need a pretty diabolical Mephistopholes, though...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Exodus on September 16, 2005, 11:01:10 pm
I like that idea.

It's better than what Hadriel and I were playing on earlier, which involved a sort of "Creator" and "Destroyer" type relationship; Crono is the living embodiment of the "Creator", with a bit of "Destroyer" added in, and likewise for Lavos.


Yeah.

Pretty lame, but it's good for five minutes of discussing ideas. =P
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on September 16, 2005, 11:49:51 pm
You're forced to wonder why he wants the ultimate knowledge, though.  Perhaps we could incorporate a bit of the creator/destroyer instinct into it.  Life, in essence, is a repeating cycle of birth and death.  Our laws of physics dictate that in order to survive, we have to kill other living things.  This is what the Dragon God was bitching about in CC, and as goth/emo as it sounds, it has a point.  If Lavos were God, he could feasibly make up a new set of universal laws that did not require this.  If one believes in a Creator, one has to wonder why he didn't do this to begin with.  In the Abrahamic faiths, sin is cited as the reason.  Sin can be defined as any number of things by any number of people, but it is invariably the product of free choice, the virtue that the Chrono series exalts.  Yet we find it repulsive to be used as robots; we need free will, or the illusion of free will, in order to live and grow.  The only hope we're given is a Lifestream/heaven-type thing where displaced souls go.

This is part of the spirit of magic; not just the manipulation of the elements, but the actual creation of possibilities.  The Chrono Trigger almost certainly possessed the power of what would truly be defined as magic i.e. something that supersedes the laws of physics entirely.  The plotline we have now has Lavos and the Frozen Flame able to summon stuff out of the DBT with a continued power expenditure, but the Chrono Trigger can actually restore it for good, among other things.  In a lot of ways, even Lavos is a confused and tormented being; it just so happens that he's got bazillions of times more experience and knowledge to back him up.  Whatever the ending is in this must set the stage for his desire in Cross to devour everything.

Whatever Lavos is opposing, other than the Entity, would again have to be something pretty diabolical.  But that gets me to thinking: it's said that the Entity is at peace, but in CC it's up and trying to get rid of us.  What the hell is that?  There has to be a reason for its anger, other than ZOMGSEQUEL!  Also, one has to question what exactly a "natural" evolution would be.  It's said that the Reptites supposedly achieved an evolution much closer to that of the planet's desires, but what does that actually entail, and what's the end result that the planet's trying to get out of it?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 17, 2005, 12:25:49 am
Well, as you wish, it is your story after all. I was only hoping to give a little kick in the tailpipe, as you said.

As a suggestion of what the reason for knowledge could be... perhaps a fear of death? A fear of death could have lead him on a search for the secret of immortality, much like Gilgamesh - maybe even a comrade of his of the ancient world fell victim to this immortal power called 'death', and in fear of it he began searching the universe over for the secret of immortality. But unlike Gilgamesh who but finds immortality to be the secret of the gods, and unnattainable, he indeed found it, but in possessing it found it to be a terrible curse, for in time his strength failed in despite of his immortality, and he thus sought no longer for immorality, but for the power he was now lacking. And seeing how despicable his weakness was, he resolved to clothe himself in an aspect of supreme power, to be not only immortal but mighty beyond compare. Thus he sets into motion a plan of millions of years to take the life of worlds and make it his own (I suppose like Sephiroth and the meteor, but much more subtle and long-lasting an attempt.) This could also then account for his long sleep. But in his long life his mind has been scattered - for despite immortality, he is still a mortal in spirit, and his 'dream', as it were (borrowing the terminology from CC) has strayed so far from Zurvan, it has lost order and coherence. Thus he becomes insane, in some regard, even as his grand plan comes to fruition.

So, essentially, first comes a fear of death. From this stems the desire for immortality, knowledge being a pathway to this. To attain this, he makes a Faustian pact, either in some actual way with a mightier creature (the death itself, Thanatos, that he so greatly fears, maybe?*) or simply in a metaphorical way. But after many long years of this wise, intelligent, life, he begins to find that knowledge does not breed satisfaction, and that weakness still sets in - the death he avoided has been replaced by a wasting away. In terror of this he uses his supreme knowledge and dark-learned arts to perfect a plan to become mightier than aught else in the universe, so that he might never have to lack power, or fear for anything. So that he could live forever unassailable and without care. And whiles this occurs, his spirit has ceased being one of order, and has rather turned to chaos. So, that brings us to CT, and his master-plan of turning the earth into an immortal throne where he can live forever. But in all this, he has ceased to be 'human' (or whatever he was to begin with) - all that he was, defined by cares and even death and mortality, is gone, so what now is he? He is unique, a terror and tyrant who looks only to himself. But, in origin, he need not have been any more than a mighty Dr Faustus mingled with Gilgamesh; he may even have been a hero! The Chrono series is an epitaph to the tragedy of Lavos, then, for this wretched creature that wishes so much power and destruction was no more than what man is.

By the way, did you consider the Greek stuff?


*(Note: Read this after all the rest of the things) Yes, that may be it, that may be Mephistopholes and Satan in one in the Chrono world: death and nothingness. In Greek death would be Thanatos. But there are other powers yet older than Thanatos, perhaps throw versions of these together. The ancient four of Greek myth were Gaia - likely the entity in CT -, Chaos, Tartaros, and Eros, of which Chaos came first. In Chrono we already have Gaia taken care of. But what of Chaos, the eldest? What of Eros, that is Desire? Tartaros the Pit? The great creature Typheos the Terrible is born of the union of Gaia and Tartaros, maybe that give some story ideas for some boss, just as a side-thought. Alright, just bear with me here, the ideas are a little scattered in my mind, and my only hope is that you take them and somehow find some value or coherence in them that might be of use. These are basically how the Chrono world connects with Greek mythology; it might be something to continue on, to some extent. Now, as I was saying... Kronos the youngest of the Titans, at the bidding of his mother Gaia, took up an adamantine sickle and castrated Ouranos, allowing for the imprisioned hundred-handed, and various other creatures, to come out of Gaia. It also usurped Ouranos' position as supreme god. However, Kronos was surplanted by his own son Zeus. Now, take this connection: The planet as Gaia (plainly), Crono as Kronos, and Lavos as Ouranos (for Lavos did come from the heavens, and caused great pain to the earth, did he not?) What does the the Planet do? She takes a son of hers, one of the youngest (being born in a late age - remember, too, that Kronos is a son by Gaia and Ouranos... is not mankind in CC the progeny of the Earth corrupted by Lavos?) and giving him power sends him to render her vile opressor impotent. He succeeds, even as humanity succeeds in freeing earth from Lavos. But guess what! Kronos was an even worse tyrant than Ouranos, and Gaia conspires to rid herself of this new menace: mankind, her aforetimes saviour. Very much alike, eh? Now, obviously the rest of the tale, like the Time Devourer, and the like, don't connect exactly... but they don't have to. This is enough to cement a very typological similarity. What you can have thus is the history of Lavos/Ouranos before this, not the exact same, but borrowing ideas. Thus Gaia is older than Lavos, and Lavos itself is born of Gaia (or, at least, one of the 'Gaia's' of the universe.) This accounts, so far, for only one of the four original beings. Eros... connects everything, and needn't be directly addressed. Tartaros and Chaos, though. I cannot remember how they connect to Thanatos...
First, an interjection. This does not contradict with my Faustian idea with Lavos. That was a concrete story idea, of Lavos originating as a being on another planet. This is more of a mythical view of it, seeing Gaia as far older, and Lavos coming in the mists of prehistory as an oppressor, and Crono/mankind as a saviour at first, and later oppressor. Both still hold uncontrary. But now that the connection between my Faustian Lavos and the Ouranian Lavos is cleared up, I can connect him with what can be maybe the older and more powerful things that he fears as a Dr Faustus. It must be noted with extreme admonishion that these older powers should not be considered evil, or uber-bosses or uber-evils to outdo Lavos. He fears them, but they are simply the things of the Chrono universe, and not the enemy thereof. Thus Lavos, though he makes a pact with these things, is still the chief of evils. Just like one in old myth might make a pact with Hades, and become embittered through it, Hades remain not evil: he is pityless, but cannot be held to be evil. He just is what he is. Now, as I was saying...
I have to look at the Theogony for this. Alright, from Chaos comes Erebos (the Darkness) and Night. From Night comes Death (ie. Thanatos in Greek), Doom, and Fate. Now, I'm not sure how this all can go together, I admit. Basically, I would say, do only passing references to these other entities. Say that Lavos drew his power from hateful Night, being affrighted at the aspect of Thanatos, who had torn from him a dear friend. Or, even, make him go higher up: to Chaos. Tartaros doesn't need to be mentioned at all. But essentially, you can hint at the history to Lavos even as I've already outlined in the rest. But add that at the death of his ancient companion, he becomes terrified of Thanatos coming for him and tearing his life from him. So he begs that he might be spared his visit, and at long last discovers a way in which this might be done - his search for knowledge. At this an enraged Thanatos comes to him, crying that none may avoid him, and that when the hour that his brother Fate decides comes, then he will take his life from him. But Lavos cries to Thanatos' mother Night, imploring her to stay her son's hand, and then up to her father Chaos, who was before all else. And here comes the Mephistopholean bargain, though not Chaos, nor Night, nor Thanatos himself are actually evil the way Mephistopholes and Satan are. They grant that he, because of his great learning, first amongst mortal, need not fall to the hand of Thanatos, and Death consents - but it is a gift of Midas, a curse within a blessing, and they know it. For even as Tithonus the Trojan prince who gained immortality but not eternal youth, he begins wasting away, and forsees an eternity of impotence - more frightening even than death. So he looks now for power, and again cries to Chaos. He offers to give his soul to them, and not to Zurvan (Tartaros?), if they will grant him knowledge by which he can make himself powerful amongst immortals. They thus do, and thus he knows how to do those things that he later does. Certainly, though, Gaia must not be happy, but I daresay she could not do much against Chaos' displeasure. I stress again that these are impartial entities, not evil. It fits better that way.

Anyway, just some ideas. I hope they're useful. I obviously delved much into Greek myth.


So... thoughts? I hope someone at least read through all of that. It took me a while to formulate.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on September 17, 2005, 01:04:46 am
That's gonna take a hell of a long time to evaluate, but there's a lot of potential in that line of thinking.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 20, 2005, 05:40:55 pm
Is anybody yet working on this? I mean, Hadriel was asking for ideas, but there's not nearly the volume of posts that there were aforetimes. I was just wondering if, at some time in the future, I would be required to draw more pictures. Just for the heck of it, I doodled some helmets (all historically inspired, of course, from Assyrian to Samnite and things such as that), but I'm not sure if such things will be needful. After all, it seems that few are working on it anymore. Or, at least, the lack of posts on these threads seems to indicate that.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on September 20, 2005, 07:21:22 pm
And, er...

>_>

<_<

Has anyone seen my CT:CE logo in the other thread?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 20, 2005, 07:24:51 pm
Quote from: Chrono'99
And, er...

>_>

<_<

Has anyone seen my CT:CE logo in the other thread?


Yes, I did. But I've not replied to much of anything of late. But now that you mention it, the logo did indeed look very good, and fit the mood of the game - or what I perceive to be the mood - very well.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 23, 2005, 01:12:20 am
My father got a microphone today, and just for the heck of it I thought I'd try it out, so I recorded that phrase that was in Greek. I find that I really can't do it justice using English letters, so this is essentially how it* would sound:
http://s4.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3KU2JMKZWIMDF1I1XD56GU2XNX
Doesn't Greek sound ever so much better than English?

*HO OURANIOS KATHITSEI HUPO TAYN PURAMIDA

(Shoot, sorry, I didn't realize I had posted last here. I'd just have edited it into the last one. Apologies, it was not my intent.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on September 23, 2005, 01:22:57 am
We have a dire shortage of Temporal Flux users.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on September 23, 2005, 01:30:01 am
Quote from: ZeaLitY
We have a dire shortage of Temporal Flux users.


Oh. That makes sense, now. Well, I'm no good at that program, I've found, so I'd be no help. Hopefully some people step forward so that this project can continue; I'd hate to see such promise fall away.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on September 24, 2005, 01:46:03 pm
I'd love to take the time to better learn TF Zeality, but right now it just isn't possible. Between school and work I don't have any time.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on September 24, 2005, 01:59:49 pm
Slashdot might bring in people.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Exodus on September 24, 2005, 08:12:44 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: ZeaLitY
We have a dire shortage of Temporal Flux users.


Oh. That makes sense, now. Well, I'm no good at that program, I've found, so I'd be no help. Hopefully some people step forward so that this project can continue; I'd hate to see such promise fall away.


Well, learn to use it! =P

Seriously, you can master ancient languages but haven't trained a simple computer program to thought? For shame, son.

Nah, I'm kidding.

Try out Flux though. Experiment a lot. That's what it took me.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on November 22, 2005, 01:07:13 am
Attention: We need a condensing and revising of this thread. Hadriel did a great job of this a few pages back, but we need something we can tangibly work with. New ideas have been going back and forth, and if we don't get ahold of this thing now, jsondag's gonna rewrite the  whole game underneath our noses.  :D
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on November 30, 2005, 02:37:03 am
Really? I hope in not too dire a fashion: Hadriel and the story-writers had a wonderful thing going there.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on December 01, 2005, 03:29:09 am
Just the early bits, really... I think the later stuff was what conflicted. And as you know, we can't currently implement playable Schala, so that throws some of the story out of the window temporarily.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 01, 2005, 12:51:18 pm
Yeah, what's the matter there? Was that the problem with the sprite size, ie. Glenn took Ayla's, but Schala being left with Frog's, and it wasn't big enough, or something like that?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on December 02, 2005, 01:54:37 am
Something to that extent.

And that even implementing human Glenn right now would possibly make the game asplode randomly. >_< I don't even want to imagine all the sprite errors we'll be getting at first...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 02, 2005, 09:00:19 pm
Well, Schala's supposed to be short.  Why not capitalize on that by compressing her sprite, if it's possible?  Sprite editing isn't something that requires too terribly much effort, but what about within the context of TF?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on December 03, 2005, 02:38:45 am
I suppose if push comes to shove, it could be her child form from Cross. >_> Parts of the story would have to be changed, and I don't know how it would be explained, but... *shrug*

I don't know much about sprite compression, though.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Aitrus on December 03, 2005, 05:52:01 am
It could easily be explained: in searching for her, Magus finds Kid, not Schala.  Despite the fact that he was searching for his sister, not this clone-ish thing, he feels attachment to Kid nonetheless and feels he must protect her as much as possible, so he has her come with him.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on December 03, 2005, 01:39:46 pm
Not really possible, there. Ruling out what would have to drag Kid there in the first place (which would open up, like, fifty can of worms as opposed to twenty), Kid would recognize Lucca at that age, etc, and would have to completely lose her memory of that adventure for Cross to make any sense.

If you meant adult Kid, then O_o. It still wouldn't help as adult Kid isn't short.

Ah, well. It's ultimately up to the story writers.

*shrug*
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 03, 2005, 06:35:22 pm
I would say that making her short would seem like cutting corners in order to force her to be in the tale. It's what I'd expect to see in some other fan gaem. It would seem more professional and cohesive if she were either in it in her CT form or, if that is technologically impossible, to wholly remove her as a playable character. She would be interesting, of course, but I think one of the best things about this project is it seems to know its limits, and does things not for a 'coolness' factor, but rather on a more mature level (or, at least, that's what I've found so far, and what I can remember of, the story.) Even the very nature of its setting, between the games, rather than attempting to be a sequel, gives it in my eyes an element of class. You have nothing to attempt to outdo the extant games, no attempt to improve upon that which is there. AND you're sticking within Chrono canon. If Chrono Break is ever made, CE will not be wholly useless.

So, yeah, I think that things should continue as they've been going.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 03, 2005, 10:26:53 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with Daniel. If Schala is impossible to do in her CT form, don't include. As much as it pains me to see her removal, it is certainly a better choice than scaling her down/putting in Kid.

So it's impossible to make Schala in Ayla's slot then? Shame...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on December 04, 2005, 08:12:37 pm
No, that's possible, it's just that we couldn't have human Glenn then.

I suppose it would be easier making up a reason for Frog to be a frog again than for Schala to be in kid-mode. O_o
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 05, 2005, 02:45:30 am
So, I guess the question is, which is both more interesting to the player and story-wise: a human Glenn, or Schala? One must remember that he in all likelihood did revert at the end of Trigger, so to make him an amphibian again requires explanation - it would seem more cohesive to make him human, and would seem as though things have advanced since CT. Not much, but enough to show a passage of time. Moreover, to see a human Glenn fight, especially alongside Magus, is a rather interesting thing. The inclusion of Schala, on the flipside, is also interseting, both story-wise and combat wise. It also requires explanation, however.

If it were a choice between Glenn and Schala, I'd probably go with the former. It seems more linear with Chrono Trigger. As a game+ extra there could maybe be a special half-sprite character like Tata or an imp or something, but only for an extra thing. Anyway, I hope ends don't come to that choice and that both can be safely implemented, but if not that's my opinion on that matter.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 05, 2005, 02:54:18 pm
To cut out Schala would completely negate Janus' story. His story arc is pointless if he isn't reunited with his sister. On the other hand, human Glenn is a must at this point. As you said, Glenn most likely reverted to human from at the end of Trigger.

The reunion of Janus and Schala is probably the highest emotional level we will reach with this project, and potentially the most important to old fans of CT. I don't believe we should sacrifice her character.

The only sprite of Ayla's that is smaller than normal is her running animation. Aside from that, she can be completely replaced by Schala. We just have to figure out a way to change her running animation...

You can't enlarge the running sprites, can you?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 06, 2005, 11:22:38 pm
I would disagree. Schala could still be implemented in NPC form. Glenn seems more natural to be a kindred warrior, as he was before. Of course, there is the element of brother-sister fighters that would be interesting, so there are things to be said for either way. I guess it depends on whose side to things is most interesting. Who is more important to the story as a whole?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 08, 2005, 03:30:11 pm
Storyline wise, I'd say they are both equally important. Neither Schala or Glenn play integral roles in this story (as the Masamune is never required).

A NPC version of Schala could work, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as a playable Schala. Being a Magus fanboy, I tend to stray towards a playable Schala.

But obviously, this game isn't just for me. In the end, if it came right down to it, I'd chose a human Glenn over a playbale Schala.

The only thing I don't understand is how both can't be done. The sprites for Frog are smaller than a normal character sprite, and yet we can use human Glenn. Couldn't the same be done for Schala, replacing Ayla?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 08, 2005, 04:03:12 pm
Quote from: Janus Zeal
Storyline wise, I'd say they are both equally important. Neither Schala or Glenn play integral roles in this story (as the Masamune is never required).

A NPC version of Schala could work, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as a playable Schala. Being a Magus fanboy, I tend to stray towards a playable Schala.

But obviously, this game isn't just for me. In the end, if it came right down to it, I'd chose a human Glenn over a playbale Schala.

The only thing I don't understand is how both can't be done. The sprites for Frog are smaller than a normal character sprite, and yet we can use human Glenn. Couldn't the same be done for Schala, replacing Ayla?


From what I've gathered, the human Glenn can't be used. As far as the demo goes, I wager that was an NPC they used. I think that they intend to replace Ayla with Schala, but that leaves only the half-sprite of Frog for Glenn... which could not be done. Conversely, Ayla could be replaced with Glenn, but that would remove Schala. I think the problem stems from the way the information is packed or something. They're having difficulty expanding on the Glenn sprite, I think it is - they can't make it be full height, because of the compact nature of the information. Or, I think that's the problem. I'm really not versed in that regard.

But, as I've said, I'm not that partial to one or another, and both have their merits. Schala could give Magus some double techs, maybe, which is what many have long wished for. Much of this story, after all, revolves around Zeal and the Flame. It is true that the founding of Guardia figures - and for that Glenn might be very helpful - but when it comes right down to it, Schala is likely more intrinsically connected to the overall story. An NPC Glenn could be used for that segment. And let us not forget that, along with Lavos, she is the main character of the saga, the only one constant through CT, RD, and CC. In that regard, she retains a more important position than Glenn, so maybe that weighs in her favour.

And, let us not forget this, that is must be that she falls to the power of Lavos in one time-line. That leads to some interesting plot-elements, though I can't rightly remember at this time how Hadriel reconciled that with this game - I think it is two different timelines. But nonetheless, one could bring in a concept of being unable to avoid fate - I think I'll suggest this to Hadriel - and have Schala in the end fall to Lavos, preluding CC. Now, there are a myriad of literary possibilities this opens up. For example, she then takes on the role of Crono from the first one, the character who 'dies'. Cliched? No. Because what one could do beyond this is make it a constant fear in her mind, an ever-present darkness of prophecy and foreboding ever and again foreshadowed. She may always be in mortal fear of Lavos, whom she nearly avoided, finding her, and more than once speak prophetically that she's only delayed what's inevitable. That way, there's no secret to what happens to Schala, no surprise - and thus breaking the cliche - everyone knows it outside the game, and even inside the characters fear it. But the tension comes from knowing that the outcome must be. Like the Iliad. Everyone knows Patroklos is to die. When he dons Akhilleus' armour, ever person listening to Homer would have known that he was marching to his death. Homer himself says it. When Akhilleus prays to Zeus that Patroklos might have glory, and return safely, it says that Zeus heard his prayer, and answered the first, but disallowed the second. There is no secret here. The sorrow is in knowing what will happening, seeing the aristeia of Patroklos and knowing it is only leading to his death. The agony of seeing a hero treading a path to their own destruction. This could be done to Schala very well, I think. All through the game, all the people playing it know she is doomed. But that's what would make her character a sombre one, for she would be someone who is a living-dead, as it were. And then, when the end arrives, and she sees her dismal destiny manifest in all its hateful terror before her, all understanding and realization descends upon her mind, and she knows what she has only feared: that all her paths and deeds have only led her into the TD's clutches. This is one of the marking points of Classical tragedy, I think. The realization. Take a play like Antigone. All along the audience knows that the king Kreon, by his good intentions, is setting the path for his own doom. But it makes the end no less terrible.

So, Hadriel, what do you think of that? Would you want to make Schala a tragic heroine? She certainly seems to have a sombre enough mind to make it work perfectly.

Oh, one more thing, and this is just a quirk of mine due to having read some high stories lately. Why not make this story semi-epic? Have narrative words here and there, or at least prophetic ones by ones such as Janus, that show a full knowledge of the ending. Or, even better, write an epic proem at the beginning, outlining the story. It lends a surety and confidence to writing. I don't mean a history to what happened, or an obscure preamble, but a direct outline of that basics of what is going to happen. Does that seem counter-productive? Maybe, but since both Homer and Virgil pull it off, and it is the style of epic, I don't think so. It says 'I'm not going to keep a secret what happens; I'm going to tell you, because my story-writing is good enough to stand apart.' I can't rightly think of one right now, but consider it. And remember in your consideration the Iliad, and how none of its power is lost because it begins by saying 'this tale is about the suffering caused by the anger of Akhilleus.'
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 08, 2005, 05:09:42 pm
Hmmm, I like it Daniel. All of it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 08, 2005, 05:22:03 pm
I always thought Glenn was cooler than Schala (*prepare my flame-shield* :P ), but... well, I believe in a totally neutral way that Schala as a playable character would be better than Glenn. Storywise it makes more sense as Janus Zeal and Daniel noted (although a reason for Glenn not fighting alongside Crono and co. would have to be made up). Technically it's also way easier to make battle sprites for Schala than for Glenn. Since she's a really quiet magic user, she'll always more or less stand right upright with just her hands moving. Glenn on the other hand is a swordman and it'd be harder to make running/jumping/attacking sprites for him (creating them from Frog's own sprites would probably not work).

Anyway, I hope the Masamune would play a part in the game plot even without a playable Glenn. It's holy in CT. It's evil in RD and CC (although in RD only mentioned, not seen). There has to be some kind of explanation in CT:CE even if the 1005AD Fall of Guardia doesn't take place in the game (that's what I read on an old topic).

Anyway... mmh... imitating the Iliad? Dunno if we can hope to make something as perfect as that...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 08, 2005, 07:51:02 pm
The Masamune's kind of pointless without someone to use it.

Schala was always intended to fall back into Lavos' grasp anyway.  As for handling the style of the story and the ending, the more epic, the better.  The prologue demo from CT could very well be replaced with something like an epic poem backed up by a demo of the gameplay and some cutscenes, almost like the opening to CC.  A good deal of excellent stories have done this.  The actual narrative would be something like the beginning of Final Fantasy X, where Tidus tells us to listen to his story; from the way he talks about it, you just know he's been through hell and back over broken glass.

@Janus: The thing about using Glenn is that we'd have to replace Ayla with Glenn to do it, which would leave Schala with Frog's sprites, which are shorter than normal.  If we put Schala in Ayla's spot, Glenn would have to remain a frog.  I suppose the only other option would be to cut out a sprite that we aren't going to use and replace it with a sprite set for human Glenn.  One of the caveman sprites could fulfill this function nicely.

There is a problem with this: I don't know how to write an epic poem.  I'd like a sort of fusion between that and the poem at the start of CC, but I'd need some kind of line limit based on the memory capacity of the prologue.

What happens to Schala in the story thus far is that after the Ocean Palace disaster, she and the Mammon Machine end up trapped in a state of temporal flux, torn between Lavos' time bubble and the physical world.  The team's intrusion frees her, but she still retains a connection to Lavos' dwelling.  After El Nido, the Frozen Flame ends up revealing Lavos' plan.  I might end up putting back in part of the scheme that was taken out.  It's been established that Lavos' explorations of sentient nature have left him with an intense hatred of the universe and all things in it.  However, we may still be able to use the ruined world to that end.  Even the Lavoid race wouldn't expect Lavos, their mightiest and wisest sage, to blaspheme life itself and turn a planet into a living weapon.  The defiled Earth would likely be turned against Gaspar in an effort to control the End of Time, and thus the universe itself.

So, should we put the ruined world part back or not?  I always did think it kicked arse.

I was also thinking that in El Nido, the Masamune scenario could either come full circle or begin to, by its contact with the Frozen Flame.  Alternatively, the entire party could make a trip into Zurvan at the end, in order to find Gaspar and fight back the Frozen Flame with the Chrono Break, and the Masamune could be affected in this way.  Being subjected to the constant screaming of countless souls being devoured by Lavos probably doesn't do good things for your health.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 08, 2005, 08:31:05 pm
I meant a proem, not poem. The proem is the introductory paragraph. The one of the Iliad goes: 'Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus' son Achilleus, and its ruin which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians, hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls of warriors, and the will of Zeus was accomplished since that time when first there stood in division of conflict Atreus' son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus.' See? The Iliad summed up into a paragraph. That's a proem. The Odyssey has one as well, and so does the Aeneid, though I prefer that for the Iliad (for which I have it memorized.) It essentially tells an outline of the story and, almost always, invokes the muses. Now that, given the right mood, I actually know how to do - my style's been leaning toward it in the last few months. I suggested a similar thing to the Novel Project, actually (but on that day I actually was able to come up with one.) What I wrote there, for Chrono Trigger itself, went so:
Come, goddess, and rest upon me.
Give me the words to speak of these things
Of ruin and the wrack of worlds,
Despair and the falling of empires.
For such was the mighty power of old
Demon and terror from the bosom of mighty Ouranos
Come to torment the children of earth.
Yet come! Speak now, and tell me of they,
Who through great travail, and many roads,
Yea from east to west, from yesterday to tomorrow,
Did stand in contest, valiant against this terror,
Come, goddess, tell me these things, of battle and woe,
and brilliant glory! Speak through me, this tale of ages.

See? That's what I mean. Well, I intend to reply to the rest of what you said Hadriel - you had some rather interesting ideas there that I wanted to support you on, but it's suppertime and I must for now make all hate to depart.

Okay... yeah, I think you should keep the ruined world thing in there. Also, maybe, the trip to Zurvan. If it's done right, that is. It could be interesting. Make it a place of absolute quiet and peace. Do you know CS Lewis' 'The Magician's Nephew'? That's the prequel to The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. The wood between the worlds that figures in it might be just the way Zurvan should be done. If you don't know the story, I'd admonish you read this part, just to get an idea of it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 12, 2005, 02:05:27 am
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Come, goddess, and rest upon me.
Give me the words to speak of these things
Of ruin and the wrack of worlds,
Despair and the falling of empires.
For such was the mighty power of old
Demon and terror from the bosom of mighty Ouranos
Come to torment the children of earth.
Yet come! Speak now, and tell me of they,
Who through great travail, and many roads,
Yea from east to west, from yesterday to tomorrow,
Did stand in contest, valiant against this terror,
Come, goddess, tell me these things, of battle and woe,
and brilliant glory! Speak through me, this tale of ages.


I'd been meaning to say this all weekend; reading that was like getting hit in the face with the sledgehammer of great writing.  I'm trying to write something similar in style but different in content to that.  I'm in the process of summoning up a Level 9 Poetry Battlizer Attack.  Considering that I invented that just now, it might take a couple of days.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 14, 2005, 03:17:16 am
You praise me unduely, I think. For the first, I wrote that rather quickly, and didn't think much of it at the time (though, now, on second glance, it isn't so bad, though it's not as good as may be.) And, secondly, it's not really that hard to do, and I cannot take any credit for essentially taking standard epic form and throwing CT's story into it. It's pretty normal to invoke the muse, and then give an explanation of what is to happen. Knowing that, it's not really all that hard. The hardest part is making it sound poetic, because I'm more of a prose writer. Anyway, if you read the intro to the Iliad, the Odyssey, and the Aeneid once through, and then proceed to write your thing, you should have no problem with those examples running through your head. Just invoke the muse, then think of the CE story, consider it in a grand sweep by its major plot and theme, and essentially say what your story's going to be about. Like a cover-letter or an abstract to a report, actually.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 17, 2005, 06:26:30 pm
I used a couple of other sources besides the Homeric tales, and here's what I came up with.  This week was finals week, so as you can imagine, I was busy studying.

Arise, spirits of pain divine
Dreams of damnation and blade of dreams fill my heart
With naught but the knowledge of the flow of time
And its goddess, the exquisite agony of sin.
Fate renders itself a mere shadow of the veil,
The veil of reality rent asunder by nature itself.
Possibilities, purpose, and the universe itself unify,
Rendered one rage against the echoes born of Tartaros.
O mighty sea of dreams, empower me.
Invoke within me the ancient tale…
Summon it and empower me to stop the end.
For the sake of all life, and all worlds…
Let us journey once again unto the breach of time…


Not the best intro in the entire world, but it's open to criticism and editing.

As for the story, it occurred to me in the shower, where all good ideas occur to me, that with the Chrono Break in the team's possession, they possess the capacity to destroy the entire Lavoid race, albeit at the expense of their own and many other worlds.  this would seem to be the only feasible way of using it, since its only function is to terminate a lifeform from the timestream.  I think perhaps that the El Nido scenario could play an intervening part in this.  Of course, by the time of the El Nido scenario, they don't have the Chrono Break; it's only obtained afterward.

I swear to the Force, I'm going to finish the CE scenario over the break.  Somebody hold me to that.

After reviewing the entire storyline, I think we can use all of what was in there before, along with the new elements.  I'm thinking that the Frozen Flame can be captured at El Nido, and divulge the main thrust of Lavos' plan to conquer the universe.  After that, it can be plugged into FATE, where Belthasar can figure out how to use its powers to forcibly project Calasperan back to the beginning of life on Earth; the availability of this option will depend on what one does during the El Nido scenario and how many sidequests one completes.  If all requirements are fulfilled, the "dungeon sequence" will be skipped and the player will be awarded several uber-items for use in the final battle, as well as in the Colosseum.  Sound OK?

Also, as for Lavos' Big Crunch plan, that will need to be qualified in the script.  Most cosmologists believe that the universe is actually accelerating in its expansion, and thus a Big Crunch is unlikely.  This will need to be mentioned; it will engender an added sense of awe to Lavos' power.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 17, 2005, 09:46:01 pm
I must say that, in context of Crimson Echoes and all, it is most excellent, save at one minor part that may just be a quirks of mine: the first line, where you say 'pain divine'. I have never liked the adjective placed after the noun in English, and rather think it sounds too assuming. To my own ears at least, it would sound better to say 'Arise, spirits of divine pain,'. But other than that, job well done. If I dare say so, it sounds as good as the opening to Chrono Cross, despite it having a different mood. Not so wingedly carefree and reminiscing, but rather on a darker and more tragic and foreshadowing note. Well done, I hope to see that in the final game.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 18, 2005, 12:54:15 am
I did try to draw a little bit from the CC opening for it.  In case it isn't obvious, Janus is the narrator there; the mood is much like his spell for summoning Lavos.  I threw in a little bit of the linguistic style from Pious Augustus' opening soliloquy from Eternal Darkness, in which he laments that he once did not have the power that the Ancients have bestowed upon him as a lich.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 18, 2005, 03:35:10 am
Quote from: Hadriel
I did try to draw a little bit from the CC opening for it.  In case it isn't obvious, Janus is the narrator there; the mood is much like his spell for summoning Lavos.  I threw in a little bit of the linguistic style from Pious Augustus' opening soliloquy from Eternal Darkness, in which he laments that he once did not have the power that the Ancients have bestowed upon him as a lich.


Pius Augustus... dutiful and revered. Strange name for something that is recalled from Hades.

NOTE: HADRIEL, THIS ALL CAME TO ME, AND I FIGURE IT FOR A RATHER GOOD IDEA. PLEASE DO READ THIS THROUGH AND CONSIDER WHAT I SAY... OH, AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF IT!

Anyway, that does make a rather good speech for Janus. Actually, here's an idea for it, and do consider it, as it strikes me well and I think it could work wondrously. You'll be using it as the opening, of course, but why not put it in the end as well? You could have Janus, at the very end, confronted by some strange people somewhere - or here's an idea: the race of Lavos themselves! - who are wondering at what this great travail and tale that has passed has been about, from beginning to end. And as the last of the screens darkens, one of these beings asks him of this, and commands him to tell. And Janus, in the fashion of a poet of the Zeal court (and considering how he is in RD, I think that Janus has the ability to be very formal and well-spoken, if he so wishes, best in all pursuits of mind and body, of learning and skill) stands forward, sweeps his cloak, and begins to speak this. Imagine! The end is Janus, before the people of Lavos himself, as a guest-friend and, I should think, a peer, telling a grand tale, like some new Odysseus before a gracious Phaikaian king. Long-suffering Odysseus... it could be said for Janus as well. And Odysseus had his homecoming... why should Janus remain forever in suffering?


Honestly, I think that would make for a wonderful end - it would seem as though the story has gone full-circle, and what was prophecied at the beginning has come and gone, and is being retold, and so on. Yes, I really think this could work wonderfully. I'd imagine the people of Lavos to be a very austere and ancient group, loving of wisdom and knowledge and tales, and all that sort of thing. Imagine... oh, like some messenger play, where the people of some expedition wait for the tidings, and when they come in the form of a messenger they are grim, things of woe and ruin. Like Aeschylus' Persians, wherein a messenger speaks of the destruction of their armies at Salamis. I can imagine these ancient lords of Lavos' people - maybe even the father of Lavos himself - sitting in council, and aghast to hear that their mission has gone so astray. And so it could end, with Janus* standing before them, great and powerful as the last son of Zeal (and in this, I'm thinking of how I've spoken of him at the end of Twilight of Fate), the equal of this great people. They would weep to hear of the fall of such a race as Zeal, and be heartbroken that one of their own betrayed an entire world in such a way. Oh, dammit all, I cannot quite tell it as I wish, or speak properly of the feeling of it. To me, it seems like such a grand final flourish - Janus, the mighty tale-teller, standing there in counsel before the lords of Lavos' people. For who else but he could do such a thing? Who else of humanity would be worthy, or might enough, to be counted equal amongst the lords of that race in keeness of mind and strength of power? With Zeal downfallen, only he, the last prince and lord. Do you see what I'm getting at? Got it! That's what I was thinking of. Alright, here's the final point, the feel I was going for: Horatio in Hamlet. At the end, Fortinbras strides in saying, what is all this? And Horatio there says he will speak of these things, of foul things, and all that sort. That's what I was thinking of, though mingled with a more programatic proem and formal epic, as you wrote. Think of the feeling of the end of Hamlet when Horatio is about to speak all this to Fortinbras - then think of Janus before the lords of Lavos' race.

*Janus I see as a transitory character, and one that could do well to remove himself from his darkness - much as it seems to be the hallmark of the character of Magus, it seems to me that it is rather a sickness or shadow ever-present upon him, and masks his true self even from himself. That for all his dark-earned power, it is just a shadow of what he could be free from it, in full nobility and grandeur such as a lord of Zeal should truly be, shining like an angel amidst humanity. Now, the whole grim sorcerer thing is wonderful, of course, but needn't last forever. It's only his warrior guise, a mask and cloak borne up by need of the harsh endeavours he is subjected to. And when the journey is over... it is cast aside. He returns to bright glory, setting aside the dark form of his younger years. I, personally, do that transition very quickly in my story - all at once, at the defeat of Lavos, because I consider Lavos himself the root of that darkness and that, undefeated, it forever prey's on Janus' mind...an oath that he swore being unfulfilled, that being to kill Lavos. So it his oath, his vows, that chain him. They limit him and drive him to harshness and anger. Honestly, I think it would be immensely interesting if he would of a suddenly change at the end: become bright and glorious like some heavenly thing, like a sudden spring after a long harsh winter. I read recently that Tolkien had this idea of an inverse to the typical classical turn for the worse: a turn for the better. Say, the coming of the Rohirrim. It leaves one with such joy and relief, and feeling of things being better. Anyway, I'm rambling, but the thing is, Janus' character has so far in Chrono Trigger been rather static in his tragedy - to suddenly wrench that way and give him a noble and bright glory would be more touching, I think, than any character death could now do. Oh, here's what I was thinking of with the more glorious version of Janus:
Though it had ever been his way to speak rashly and in pride, such things had now departed from him forever. The dark sorcerer was no more, for he was robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver that reflected the sheen of the sun. He seemed as a cloud behind which the sun hides, yet even as the heavenly light burns at its verges, and flames from behind in hidden glory, his power could not be fully veiled. Truly here was the last prince and lord of Zeal, and his words were as the wisdom that brings low all foolishness. His countenance bore none of the rage, neither the hate nor pain that it had carried in all the long years of his life before. A joyous peace had descended upon his mind, and it shone like a starfire in his eyes. He was his true self once again, such as he had not been since before his memory could recall.

So please, tell me what you think of this idea. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I think that Janus the aoidos, Janus the poet, would be a wonderful conclusion to the thing, and would show the regal side of his character, and in power standing as a peer beside the people of Lavos, as a final grand and joyful flourish.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 18, 2005, 02:53:12 pm
...

My God Daniel, that's beautiful. I... can't really describe it as anything else. If there is one thing in the story I know I MUST see, it's your dream of Janus being recognised.

Quote
Though it had ever been his way to speak rashly and in pride, such things had now departed from him forever. The dark sorcerer was no more, for he was robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver that reflected the sheen of the sun. He seemed as a cloud behind which the sun hides, yet even as the heavenly light burns at its verges, and flames from behind in hidden glory, his power could not be fully veiled. Truly here was the last prince and lord of Zeal, and his words were as the wisdom that brings low all foolishness. His countenance bore none of the rage, neither the hate nor pain that it had carried in all the long years of his life before. A joyous peace had descended upon his mind, and it shone like a starfire in his eyes. He was his true self once again, such as he had not been since before his memory could recall.


Reading this while listening to the Chrono Symphonic remix of "To Far Away Times" I was blown away.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 18, 2005, 04:14:39 pm
I agree that it's beautiful... But (do I always play the devil's advocate? :wink: ) be careful not to mistake Magus with someone that you would like him to be. Let's face it, Magus was not royal, poetic, prince-like in the CT Japanese version, he was simply a real damn bastard. It has been noted many times by people who knows Japanese. Coincidently, Hyena 20 wrote something about that just a week ago at GameFAQs. Here's the post:
Quote
From: Hyena 20 | Posted: 12/13/2005 1:13:40 PM | Message Detail
Oh, and he's a bit more of a jerk in the Japanese version. A quick rundown.

*SPOILERS*

Magus's personality is quite toned down by Woolsley, and made a bit more comical.
Rather than listing paragraph after paragraph of some of the differences, I'll just go through a list of dialogue differences between the original and US versions:

*His language is more blunt and vulgar in general. I don't know how Chrono and co. can stand him because he insults them with damn near every statement he makes and just generally acts extremely rude. Not as rude as Diisu/Bleu in Breath of Fire, but close enough (I don't think I've ever encountered a videogame character more rude and arrogant than Diisu.)

*Instead of saying "He's history, play with fire and you get burned!", he says "He's dead! The weak die like insects!"

*If he's in a good mood, he'll call you say-- "damned *person*", "lowly *person", (aitsu) "woman", "boy", or "you" are also adequate ways to translate this. If he's in a bad mood, he'll call you "son-of-a-*****", "*****", "*****", "bastard", etc. (kisama)

*In the US translation, Magus doesn't answer Ozzie's question on why he broke his promise to help him; instead he just says he hears the reaper. In the original version, he replies that "Hmmph, I only did it for the power", then callously tells him that he hears the sound of the black wind blowing around him.

*Magus refers to the Black Wind a lot more. Instead of saying "Unimaginable is the power of Lavos, anyone who dares oppose him meets certain doom", he says "So mighty is Lavos's power that the Black-Death-Wind blows around any who stand against him." He also refers to the Black Wind rather than the reaper when speaking to Ozzie.
What is the Black Wind?
The Black Wind is death.
Schala, Masa, and Mune refer to it as the 'Black Energy'.

*Before the fight with Lavos, Magus says "We're like cattle waiting to be slaughtered... All humans... and all living things". In the Japanese version, he says "We are all Lavos's produce (something to be harvested or slaughtered). All humans, no, all living things". This is an important sentence that highlights much of Magus's personality, views, and past. He first says humans but then corrects himself, because of his belief that all creatures (or at least all sentient ones) are equal.
Consider how his past must have been. As a Zealian, he had been taught that the Mystics were evil demons that eat children and do all sorts of terrible things. Then he is thrown into 600AD where he is captured by Mystics. Gradually he realizes that everything he was taught about them was a lie. Even more, the Mystics most likely believe all the same things about humans that humans believe about them. This would give Magus a rather jaded outlook, and indeed there are signs of just that. In the Magus vs. Frog ending, Magus says that "except for you and me (him and Frog), everyone still alive is a cockroach (lowly, weak, trash)." This ending is interesting because it shows that though Magus doesn't like Frog, a part of him also respects him. Perhaps it is because Frog, unlike most of the humans of 600AD, actually view the Mystics as people.

*Janus is NOT Schala's step-brother. This was a mistranslation. In the Japanese version, the same Zealian says that Janus is Schala's 'little brother' and 'of full royal blood'.
---
Hera is like the Greco-Roman pantheon/mythology version of Hillary Clinton.
[Independent Centrist] [Boycott EA]

Actually, Magus really makes me think about Kid, except that he's male and more powerful (thanks to magic). In CC, the "General Kid" ending does show how "bad" Kid could become if she was as strong as Magus. So, when I think about the idea of a poetic Magus... I dunno.

Of course, the "problem" is that RD portrays Magil as a quite polite and calm person (the only thing he shares with the CT Magus would be his cold blood I guess). So... I guess Daniel's version of Magus could be plausible, in a way. Maybe poetic, tragic, but still kind of bad and "dirty" (not bright and all-glorious). Janus must have had a good and complete education in Zeal in fact. In any case, I hope the change from the CT Magus to the RD-like Magus would be progressive and slow during the whole game, not a sudden change before the end of the game (like Kefka suddenly turning from an impolite clown to a philosopher god...).

...and anyway, it's just my personal opinion. I actually agree with this poetic Magus proposition, I just imagine it being progressive instead of a sudden, right-before-the-ending apotheotic enlightenment.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: GrayLensman on December 18, 2005, 06:12:34 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Though it had ever been his way to speak rashly and in pride, such things had now departed from him forever. The dark sorcerer was no more, for he was robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver that reflected the sheen of the sun. He seemed as a cloud behind which the sun hides, yet even as the heavenly light burns at its verges, and flames from behind in hidden glory, his power could not be fully veiled. Truly here was the last prince and lord of Zeal, and his words were as the wisdom that brings low all foolishness. His countenance bore none of the rage, neither the hate nor pain that it had carried in all the long years of his life before. A joyous peace had descended upon his mind, and it shone like a starfire in his eyes. He was his true self once again, such as he had not been since before his memory could recall.


That is very good, but I have a minor complaint.  I don't see Janus ever wearing white.  I would prefer he wear princely robes, as does Magil, or a  plain grey or black habbit.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 18, 2005, 07:05:20 pm
I assure you, it's quite progressive.  At first, he only respects the crew for their power; the humanistic objections are at the back of his mind, though.  After CT, he'd achieved vengeance upon Lavos, removing him from his dark throne.  All that remained is for him to find Schala.  With this accomplished, his nature as an angry individual is no longer necessary.  Lavos' growth reflects his, as he's the closest to the beast out of any of them.  Lavos is one of the oldest beings in the entire universe, having evolved within the first instant of the universe's existence.  Zurvan is the spiritual manifestation of Time itself; the Tesseract is a part of it.  Due to space's compressed nature at this point, time itself was a far more chaotic, uncertain entity than it is now, and many paradoxes akin to the Time Crash were manifest in the universe, easily perceptible to any who were around to see them.  By the quirks in probability inherent in the physically odd setup of a birthing universe, Lavos' race was allowed to exist, and to perceive time's chaos intuitively, rather than mathematically as we can perceive possibilities.  With this skill, they quickly gained knowledge and evolved to a godlike state as a virtual spawn of the stars themselves.  In essence, Lavos is equivalent to Adam, being one born of Zurvan in an effort to achieve universal balance.  The paradise of time compression was Eden for his race, which in accordance with their heightened perception, grew to prize knowledge above all else.  They developed a sort of physical and spiritual hive mind for this purpose, and crafted great empires among the stars before any other lifeforms were even a blink in causality.  After billions of years, other life began to take shape, and the people of Lavos were sympathetic to them, wishing for all life to join in their paradise of knowledge.  However, the form of behavioral and moral philosophy that comes with that is all that they had ever known; when many of his race's experimentations with other worlds ended in disaster, as well as the races of those worlds themselves, Lavos became convinced that sin was the true nature of all life, and that the universe itself was afflicted with immorality.  From this arose his desire to utterly remake it.  The problem with this is that by carrying out his plan, he would become the ultimate murderer; derangement would seize his mind and soul, and the universe spawned from him would be hell in the purest sense of the word, a place of torment and death beyond all imagining.  Magus' intended revenge upon Lavos is similar; his concept of reality was shattered by the utter catastrophe that Lavos visited upon Zeal, the greatest sons of Earth, as what was then the latest murder in a vicious cycle of death.  Janus' only wish is to achieve his perception of justice by killing Lavos.  And, like Lavos, he'll utterly destroy anyone that stands in his way, but again, like the beast, he didn't stop to think what kind of a person he'd be after the fact, or that good people might get caught in the crossfire.  This is where he starts out after CT, and his interactions with Schala and Glenn develop this aspect of his character.

Traveling back to the beginning of Gaia could easily serve the purpose of allowing his character to come full-circle.  The people of Lavos would be debating what to do with Earth at that time, and they'd likely interfere on behalf of the team in the stages leading up to the final battle, anyway.  That bit of dialogue sounds perfect for Lucca or Marle to relate as he's telling them the tale.

As for Janus' attire, whoever can draw the most convincing picture or put together the l33test sprite gets it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 18, 2005, 08:41:09 pm
If we're going to go forward with a purified Janus, perhaps we could look to angelic clothing?

http://www.aocc.org/angel.jpg

A golden cloak perhaps?

I like the idea of a Janus "robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver ", I just don't know how to implement it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 18, 2005, 09:33:11 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
I assure you, it's quite progressive....As for Janus' attire, whoever can draw the most convincing picture or put together the l33test sprite gets it.


Hmmm... alright, but I just figured that the grandeur of speaking before Lavos' people would be matchless in final impact - those who are mightiest, yet ignorant of this great tale. And, through that, showing Janus as a peer could then be representative of how Zeal in its glory could have been, had it endured. But however you wish it. And in so far as his character goes, my rationale for a sudden shift comes from his darkness not being a character trait, but rather a lingering curse of sorts, a shadow of Lavos ever-present upon his mind since childhood. As such, once thte cause is removed, it would be like someone awakening from a long sickness... thus a very swift transition indeed. I see it as rather the opposite to the typical classical tragedy idea of a sudden knowledge and decent into sorrow. The difference also lies in story approach. To do it slowly is a fashion of tale-telling that is very character based; swiftly is more focussed on the events and how heroes play a part in them. Naturally for me, I usually work more with the second, though I think it is rather more common for the first to be put into play in most writing.

Oh, and I wasn't speaking out of the blue in speaking of Janus' robes as being white. Doesn't he don those in the second scenario of Radical Dreamers? And, moreover, look at the following picture, which was truly what I was considering in that:
(http://chrono.lunar-net.com/cc/cross/characters/guile/art.jpg)
When I said that in my writing, I was considering that, in character design, this was meant to be Janus - though the story abandoned that before it came to fruition, I do think this is the intended later fashion of Janus. He's still got his enigmatic character, he's still black-innate and using shadow magic... but he's different. He's more noble, more regal. His suffering... it's what the Greeks spoke of using the term Pathei Mathos: that wisdom comes through suffering. And his suffering over, he is left with a great deal of wisdom and understanding of things. Free of being chained to the shadows, he is stronger. (and maybe that's it: he's still shadow-magic, and shadowy... but in CT, he is still at their mercy. He is prey to his own arrogance and anger, and as such is a servant to another. But free of them, mastering them, he is no longer a slave, and thus stronger.) Anyway, that's the impression that rendering of Guile gave me. And you notice what it appears as? White robes traced with gold. So, yeah, I wasn't being totally different in thinking of him that way. It seemed to be the way the designers of CC were taking as well.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 18, 2005, 10:03:05 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Hadriel
I assure you, it's quite progressive....As for Janus' attire, whoever can draw the most convincing picture or put together the l33test sprite gets it.


Hmmm... alright, but I just figured that the grandeur of speaking before Lavos' people would be matchless in final impact - those who are mightiest, yet ignorant of this great tale.


Oh, he's going to speak before Lavos' people.  The party will meet them in the end of the game, and he's going to be the one who relates their predicament and convinces them to lend their powers for the final battle.

Quote
And in so far as his character goes, my rationale for a sudden shift comes from his darkness not being a character trait, but rather a lingering curse of sorts, a shadow of Lavos ever-present upon his mind since childhood. As such, once that cause is removed, it would be like someone awakening from a long sickness... thus a very swift transition indeed.


This would be the case, save that darkness isn't just something that can be pulled out at will to deal with a particular opponent; it becomes an addictive drug when used that way.  Janus is responsible for many deaths by this point in his life; that isn't something so easily shaken away.  It's infected his life and thought processes to the point that it is a character trait, but now that it's no longer needed, and especially after he finds Schala, he has to cope with what would by normal standards be a tolerable existence, and a warlord isn't mentally equipped to do that.  He doesn't fully shed that mind until the end.

Quote
So, yeah, I wasn't being totally different in thinking of him that way. It seemed to be the way the designers of CC were taking as well.


That's an excellent point; Guile was, after all, originally intended to be Janus.  Then they had the bright idea to put everyone in the free world in your party, but something resembling the attire of Magil and Guile would be in order.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 18, 2005, 10:30:54 pm
Quote

That's an excellent point; Guile was, after all, originally intended to be Janus.

something resembling the attire of Magil and Guile would be in order.


But at the same time we should make Janus appear powerful, since it is Janus who appears before Lavos' people as the representative of the human race. While the colours of Guile may fit our new version of Janus, let's shy away from Guile's wimpy appearance. The redeemed Janus should show the people of Lavos what heights humanity could have reached, a 'demi-god' if you will.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 19, 2005, 05:31:49 am
Quote from: Janus Zeal
Quote

That's an excellent point; Guile was, after all, originally intended to be Janus.

something resembling the attire of Magil and Guile would be in order.


But at the same time we should make Janus appear powerful, since it is Janus who appears before Lavos' people as the representative of the human race. While the colours of Guile may fit our new version of Janus, let's shy away from Guile's wimpy appearance. The redeemed Janus should show the people of Lavos what heights humanity could have reached, a 'demi-god' if you will.

Actually, Guile isn't totally what Magil would have been:
Quote
Masato Kato: To let the cat out of the bag, in the early stages of development, Guile was indeed meant to be Magus. In our original plan, the true identity of Guile was supposed to be Magus after the events in Trigger. (At the end of Trigger, Magus [a.k.a. Janus in Trigger and Magil in Radical Dreamers] disappeared into a Time Gate to go searching for his big sister, Schala, who was lost somewhere in time.) However, as the game's development progressed and we decided to use such a huge number of playable characters, we decided not to make him be Magus. We thought it was impossible to portray the relationship between Magus and Schala adequately in this game. So we changed tracks, made the colors of the Magus character design paler, and turned him into Guile, the magician. In a way, it's a pity, as I really would like to have seen the valiant figure of Magus come to life again.

His design was supposed to be a bit darker, so don't worry about Magus ever being wimpy.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 20, 2005, 04:50:04 pm
Wimpy Magus?

I think my computer blew a transistor just posting that.

Anyway, let's see...after all this time, we still need a proper ending.  We can work out the specifics of the El Nido sequence later.  Right now, all we need to do is figure out what happens after they travel back to the beginning of life on Earth.  This would be where they'd meet Lavos' people, and where the final dungeon would be located.  Earlier, we had opted to have a final sequence of fights/puzzles right before the final boss battle; this would act as the final dungeon.  As the team would be taking a trip directly into Zurvan, which is basically the Tesseract save that its timelines are exclusively those which still have a possibility of existing, as opposed to the Tesseract, which is a repository for discarded timelines and entities...I guess that makes the Tesseract the reverse of Zurvan, which literally makes it the ass end of the universe.

As for the final dungeon, it will be composed of settings from CT and CE.  All of the dungeon segments are mandatory, save the Calasperan segment.  If the player opted to save Calasperan, they won't have to go through this segment, which will be beneficial as it's very hard and can be draining on the HP.  Also, they'll gain access to the ultimate weapons.

Also, I had an idea for the game's Colosseum feature and other extras.  A "special cup" unique to CE would definitely be in order.  It'd be something of a "developer's room" in the event that we can't actually fit one in, and several of the fights would be with, well, us, in the form of whatever in-game avatars represent us.  Also, there needs to be an uber-hard optional boss or it wouldn't be an RPG.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on December 20, 2005, 05:44:43 pm
Regarding the portrayal of Zurvan...
I think I've suggested this before, but I'll do it again. I'd suggest something akin to the 'Wood Between the Worlds' in The Magician's Nephew (the first of the Chronicles of Narnia, which ironically begins before Narnia is ever created.) Anyway, it is a place of such peace and repose, and absolute silence, that when the hero of the Magician's Nephew (who is the magician's nephew, come to think of it - and is the Professor in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe) come there, he for a while forgets who he is, as though all else ever before has just been a dream, and that he has always been in this place. It is a great forest with a peaceful light, and all around are an infinite number of pools of water - each of which is another world. Now, Diggory (that's the Professor) gets the idea to try and jump into another pool, which leads to near disaster, as he ends up in the ancient and dead world of the city of Charn, and brings a certain Queen Jadis back with him to London, and thence to Narnia, but that's a different story. The point is, that feeling of peace and repose that marks that Wood, if you know the story, would I think work in feel perfectly for Zurvan, that Sea of Dreams - and, in some way, in that it encompasses all worlds, holds a similar function. If you don't know the Chronicles of Narnia, I highly suggest you read that chapter Hadriel, if for nothing else than the description so that you can get an idea of the feel.*

Now, personally, I'd be a little wary about going to Zurvan, unless it's perfectly done. Rather, it seems to be one of those things that is best mentioned, but left a mystery. To actually portray it, to fit it into the bounds of sight and sense, makes it lost some of its imagnative grandeur of eternity. But if you do choose to make use of it, I think that such a 'Wood Between the Worlds' approach would be perfect for it.

One more thing - and I know I'm bringing up a lot of points and suggestions... but hey, I'm listed as part of the 'plot' comittee, am I not? I should be doing yet more of this. Whether they're heeded or not doesn't matter, I don't think; I'm just wanting to voice what I wish for consideration. Anyway, about the people of Lavos aiding the team in this all... I'd rather say keep them out of it. The Chrono series is - as much as I'd not be of this philosophy - the glory of humanity, tempered with its downfall and damage to the earth. It is very much humanity-focussed, and to bring in as protagonists or an aid another race is rather counter to its overall theme. As such, I would think that Lavos' race should remain unseen until the very end, and are only shown in something of an epilogue, as I was suggesting. The reason for this is that to have these people come to their aid, or at least asked to help, is what would be expected. After all, I think the standard thing one playing would think is: these powerful beings exist? Aha! So they're going to try and get them to help for the good of all the worlds. It's what's expected in an RPG. I know that's what I would expect, and to do so would be treading expected ground. They'd then be rather a deus ex machina or, at least, a possible one - in one's mind they would always be a last resort, and in any grievous battle the thought is always: 'oh, I may lose here, but maybe at the last moment the Lavoses will come in and help'. To keep them seperate makes the consequences of the battle far more dire. There are no deus ex machinas waiting in the wings. It is only the heroes again Lavos... which is what Chrono has always been about. So what if they're only purpose in the story is to wonder at what has been accomplished apart from their aid? It would certainly be unique. The trick is to not make them arrogant, or condescending, or in any way haughty (like, say, the Q are in Star Trek.) But they are, in some measure, a race of philosophers. So everything else happens, and then at the end, when the victories are accomplished, their emmisarries come, all too late, saying that they have only now heard rumours of these great turmoils and wars, and wish to know what this is that is chancing in the world. At that, Janus could be the herald of humanity, the one to tell the tales (though, truthfully, Schala might be perhaps the better one - but she is lost at that time) before that ancient race, who weep for the bitter sufferings. Their purpose, then, has become not integral to the plot of the story, but more of a device by which the tale, even at the moment of closure, passes into instant legend, even before the eyes of those who themselves are legend. Do you see what I'm saying? That, I think, would be the best way to make use of Lavos' people: as the listeners to a great story, but to have no direct part - or even knowledge - of any of it before the end. It would also make them as a whole seem rather more tragic, that in their ignorance they did not know this, like some chorus of an old tragedy sitting at home, only to have the messenger arrive and give accounting of the fall of armies in the distant battlefields.

So, to sum it up: I would suggest Zurvan to be a place of simple peace wherin all timelines converge or what not, al la The Wood Between the Worlds; and that Lavos' people have no direct hand or appearance at all until the end, wherein they act as listeners only, putting the story intantly into the feel of legend, rather than actings as a second hand or some chancing theos ek makhinas.

So, what think you?

*Note: the following is an excerpt from the Chronicles of Narnia about the Wood Between the Worlds:
The trees grew close together and were so leafy that he could get no glimpse of the sky. All the light was green light that came through the leaves: but there must have been a very strong sun overhead, for this green daylight was bright and warm.

It was the quietest wood you could possibly imagine. There were no birds, no insects, no animals, and no wind. You could almost feel the trees growing ...You could almost feel the the trees drinking up the water with their roots. This wood was very much alive. When he tried to describe it afterwards Digory always said, 'It was a rich place: as rich as plumcake'.

"No, I don't believe this wood is a world at all. I think it's just a sort of in-between place."

"And of course that explains everything, " he said. "That's why it is so quiet and sleepy here. Nothing ever happens here. Like at home. It's in the houses that people talk, and do things, and have meals. Nothing goes on in the in-between places, behind the walls and above the ceilings and under the floor, or in our own tunnel. But when you come out of our tunnel you may find yourself in any house. I think we can get out of this place into jolly well Anywhere! We don't need to jump back into the same pool we came up by. Or not just yet."

"The Wood Between the Worlds," said Polly dreamily. "It sounds rather nice."

CS Lewis' descrpition of that seems very fitting for Zurvan in my mind.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 20, 2005, 09:32:20 pm
Being able to actually contact the people of Lavos would in a way be its own proof of humanity's worthiness as candidates for their "paradise of knowledge," much as the people of Vulcan weren't interested in Earth until Zefram Cochrane made his warp flight.  Obviously, the people of Lavos stand countless light-years above the Vulcans, and almost any other race one could think of.  They aren't like the Q, however.  The Q are not nearly so powerful as the average person has been led to believe.  For one thing, it's been fairly well proven that their power is the result of advanced technology rather than innate ability, and Q (the one played by John DeLancie, to avoid confusion) has been outwitted several times by the crew of both the Enterprise and the Voyager.  And when you get outwitted by a crew like Voyager, that's saying something.  I've sneezed boogers that could match wits with some of them; they ain't bright.

...did I mention that one episode where they miraculously escaped a black hole and thus broke nearly every law of physics that I know of and probably a bunch of them that I don't?

Anyway, Zurvan itself will have very limited "screen time" so as to maintain the mystery; only the final phase of the final boss battle would actually be fought there.  Of course, Crono and Marle have to die in the ending, Robo has to become infused into FATE, and Schala has to be lost to the darkness of time.  We already know the fate of Lucca; she has to return to her own time, and presumably Glenn would, as well.  This leaves us but to decide Janus' fate, which will involve searching for Schala.  I guess he'd end up staying with Belthasar.  I think it'd be cool if he ended up helping Belthasar plan the events of Chrono Cross.  I mean, no one brain could possibly put together all the minutiae of that plan, unless they're Lavos.  It required an incredible knowledge of engineering, physics, mathematics, history, and just plain old balls.  It'd also be rather fitting if he helped, both in terms of his personality and his destiny.

Any thoughts on superbosses?  Maybe another one of Lavos' people?  I'd rather not shoehorn in Omega Weapon, because that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Finally, I think I've thought of a scheme that allows for Lavos' people to aid the team without acting as deus ex machinas, at least not in the conventional sense.  It involves the final boss battle, which solves two problems at once, like so:

With the Frozen Flame in captivity in Chronopolis, the only pawn that Lavos has is King Zeal.  As long as the Frozen Flame exists, his life force will continue to be sustained.  Basically, they've got to kill him manually, or remove Lavos' hold on his mind in order to save the planet.  King Zeal's objective in the past will be to destroy the nascent life force of Gaia, and in order to do this he'll need to get far enough down into the planet to actually access its soul.  Within the context of Chrono, lifeforms that are not yet born are mere dreams in the sea of Zurvan.  As the planet is "incubating," it's trapped in something of a dream state.  Entering this dream state would be done in a similar fashion to using technology to hook someone's brain up and enter their dreams, but on a much larger scale.  If one entered this dream, they would in effect be inside the planet's soul, and from there they could easily destroy it.  However, he'll need the actual power to destroy it, as well as to get there in the first place; his labs have cooked up a crazy soul-eating bioweapon based on Lavos himself for that purpose.  Lavos can absorb souls, as demonstrated by both his presence after he landed on Earth and his union with Schala in Chrono Cross.  But, as Lavos isn't around to work his evil magic, King Zeal's labs have coughed up a bioweapon suitable for the task.  The resemblance shows; it's going to be the ugliest, vilest creature any of us can think of, both physically and morally.  

To this end, I suppose the first part of the final dungeon might resemble Final Fantasy VII in its form, because they're going inside the planet, but its latter parts would be progressively odder because of the nature of their mission, which requires the team to enter the planet's soul as well.  Once they reach the periphery of Gaia, I propose a "seal" mechanism that King Zeal would implement to keep the team out.  This would not be unlike Ganon's Tower in Ocarina of Time, where Link had to release six seals, one for each elemental power, in order to disable the shield blocking the way to Ganondorf's throne room.  In this case, the seals would not be for each element, but would instead be representative of a different Chrono setting.  This would accommodate the Calasperan setup.  Once the final seal is broken, the gateway to the altar of Lavos would be open, where King Zeal would be activating the bioweapon and preparing to sacrifice the soul of the entire planet to the Beast.  The problem, of course, would be actually getting to the seals, which is where Lavos' people could come in.  None of Belthasar's technology has the power to do this, and neither does any other technology of the year 2302.  It can only access the spirit plane in a very roundabout way; that of traveling through time.  Lavos' people would naturally be sympathetic to the plight of the Earthlings; their goal was to get worlds to grow and thrive, and Lavos is interfering in this process by having his minions effectively destroy the planet before it's even born; basically, he's violating the Prime Directive.  However, they wouldn't simply do the job for the heroes, either; that would be just as much of an interference...that and they don't know whether they're strong enough to beat him in all his hatred.  The deciding factor lies in the heroes themselves.  Their personal fortitude has been proven beyond even the possibility of doubt, having actually faced Lavos' physical form and defeated it, banishing him to the Tesseract.  But why did they bother, the people of Lavos ask?  The destruction of the world was well outside of their lifetimes, and didn't affect their lives at all.  There exist two reasons that they decided to help; first, they believe that what Lavos is doing is fundamentally wrong.  But second, and perhaps even more important, is that they believed that the planet, their legacy as human beings, was worth fighting for.  But the world of 2300 A.D. had given up on itself, content to let Lavos kill off humanity.  The people of Zeal, the greatest sons of Earth, had grown decadent and lazy, and it destroyed them.  The Middle Ages had fallen victim to petty bickering and racism, and in Crono's time, imperialism is in the process of destroying peace.  Gaia's successful attack on Lavos had not relied upon the rule describing its lifeforms, but the exception.  Humanity was an exception from the very beginning; they weren't even Gaia's desire.  It was only because of Lavos that they were allowed to survive, and even now it would seem as though it's trying to kill humanity off, judging from the Time Crash (which will be addressed as part of the El Nido scenario).  

Thus, humanity's ultimate test, that of survival and the assertion of destiny, comes in two parts.  For part one, Lavos' people would modify the Epoch's engine to be able to generate a temporal field allowing the team access to Gaia's inner core; this would be the limit of their aid.  The team would still have to defeat King Zeal and his crazy bioweapon by themselves.  The second part is for humanity to forever rid themselves of the scourge of Lavos, as he's still alive, and operating from the Tesseract, where, after the final battle, he's consuming Schala's powers to evolve into a Time Devourer.  Basically, Chrono Cross stands as the fulfillment of humanity's test, not only to the people of Lavos, but to ourselves and our posterity as well; they've achieved the virtue of knowledge.  Once that has happened, the path opens to harmony of the spirit.  The ultimate destiny of humanity is of course left untold, because (surprise) it hasn't been written yet.  That's our job to find out.

For the actual mechanics of the final battle, King Zeal would first take his normal form.  Phase II would consist of a battle with the bioweapon, after which Lavos makes a key mistake; thinking that nothing can now stop his ascension as the supreme ruler of Earth, he releases King Zeal from existence to focus all his weapon's energy on assimilating the world.  The bioweapon, however, accidentally assimilates King Zeal before he can disappear from existence, a condition both allowed and magnified by the chaos of souls and time that the weapon is creating.  Once this occurs, a rather lengthy cutscene about King Zeal and his relationship with Schala, Janus, Queen Zeal, and the world at large commences.  After that, the final fight begins; the bioweapon's evolved into a much stronger form, resembling the Lavos shell (only much, much uglier and covered in satanic imagery) and the background for the fight is a distorted version of the time bubble from the first game.  However, despite its increased strength, its soul is now contesting that of King Zeal for dominance, and this weakness is what the heroes exploit to destroy it.  Even moreso, King Zeal informs the heroes that they can weaken it by using the Chrono Break. It still has a bit of Sorin's life energy attached to it; allowing the weapon to assimilate the Chrono Break, and thus Sorin, who bears nothing but hatred for Lavos, results in the weapon's very existence starting to unravel, and it needs to absorb the power of Zurvan to survive, rendering it even bloody uglier than before and causing it to change forms and weaknesses periodically.  After a harrowing final battle, the weapon has been weakened so much that it's taking in too much of Zurvan's power to focus on assimilation, but this will destroy the entire universe if left unchecked.  Thus, it needs someone to strike the final blow.  However, once this is done, the sacrifice will stop, and whoever isn't out of the dreamworld will vanish into Zurvan along with the bioweapon and King Zeal.  The same chaos observed inside the ruins of the Black Omen begins to take shape, only this time, it's much like Daniel described the gateway between worlds, with each portal leading to a different timeline altogether; in effect, it's much like the people of Lavos describe the first ages of the universe.  Schala is ensnared by a portal that emanates from the bioweapon, and Janus is outraged.  Crono naturally volunteers to strike the final blow against the machine, and Janus objects all the way, screaming that he has to get his sister back.  Crono eventually just knocks him the fuck out and orders Lucca and the remaining party members to GTFO, because if they don't they're all fuckin' dead.  Marle stays behind with him, because she knows she can't live without him.  The others escape in an Epoch that ends up trashed after the fact; by the grace of Lavos' people, they're afforded a time portal back to 2302, where Chronopolis has manifested in reality once again.  From there, the ending commences.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on December 20, 2005, 11:50:47 pm
While the ending sounds amazing on paper, can we realistically achieve this in-game?

Again, a bold move to kill off Crono and Marle, but since this is a bridge between CT and CC it has to be done. Nice ending so far Hadriel, if not a little hard to understand.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 23, 2005, 08:10:42 pm
Therein lies the problem; I don't know how much stuff we can realistically fit in the ROM.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on December 23, 2005, 09:49:09 pm
Cut the game in two, if you fear running out of room. CE, Part 1 and Part 2.
Leave Part 1 with a cliffhanger of some sort, you could even split the development team a bit, and have both parts going on at the same time. After the gamer is done with part 1, they can keep all the stuff they found, because they can load up their previous SRAM save (the SRAM file needs to be the same name as the ROM, so no problem there). At the begining of Part 2, the first event can clear all the storyline points used in the first, so they are clear for round 2.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 23, 2005, 10:04:16 pm
Maybe what I'm going to say is stupid, but if the game is cut in 2 ROMs, could it be possible to make Glenn a playable character in one part and, you know... Schala playable in the other part? Just a question.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 23, 2005, 10:11:09 pm
The main program (aside from techs) is that Frog is roughly 4 feet tall, while all the other characters are 6 feet tall. I'm not sure that this can be corrected (Frog becoming 6 feet tall) without screwing up the ROM's ability to be read by Temporal Flux.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 24, 2005, 02:14:08 am
Oh, and we can do a complete plot audit for feasibility in Temporal Flux after  the plot is complete.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 24, 2005, 02:28:43 pm
Fortunately, that's not long off.  We have the final battle worked out now, and a general outline of what happens in the ending.  All we need now, story-wise, are the specifics of the ending and material for sidequests.  Once that's completed, we can audit the plot, modify it, and start drawing up an actual script.  We also need names and stats for bosses and other enemies.  I can't remember what we decided to name the boss that Crono, Lucca, and Marle fight to rescue Janus, if anything.  All I remember is that we'd decided it'd be an ice-themed boss, fitting the surroundings, and that it was going to be something well-known from mythology.  Storyline-wise, the creature would have been created by one or the other incarnation of the Zealian science department.

Oh wait; idea.  We could use the theme of the corruption of the planet here. The boss could be both an ice boss and a rock monster; think Thardus from Metroid Prime.  If that's good, all we'd need is a name.

Also, I had a dialogue-related idea.  It centers around Glenn at the fight with the Mystics/optional massacre.  I figured that after the battle, Glenn could be shown uttering a prayer for the souls of the departed, because he's the type who'd do something like that.  As far as the content of the prayer, I was thinking something along the lines of the prayers used in The Boondock Saints.  There were several of them, appropriate for different times in the story; I was thinking that someone could come up with something similar for use by Glenn on this occasion.

For reference, here is the text of the MacManus family prayer:
And shepherds we shall be
For Thee, my Lord, for Thee
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand
That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti.


And here's two of Il Duce's prayers that I personally like.
And when I vest my flashing sword
And my hand takes hold in judgement
I will take vengeance upon mine enemies
And I will repay those who hase me.
 O Lord, raise me to Thy right hand
And count me amoung Thy saints.


Never shall innocent blood be shed, but the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.  The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 31, 2005, 03:57:11 am
I finished playing jsondag's Magus quest beta.  The general outline of it is good, though it is very skeletal; that's just where we are in the development process.  Working from that, I came up with some ideas for the rest of the Magus sidequest.  Amidst all our talk of tragedy, philosophy, and the dynamics of magic and science in Chrono, we've left out Dalton.  A lot of people want to know what happened to him.  My thought is that during the sidequest segment of the game, Janus and two party members of the player's choice could head to 11,998 B.C. on the trail of some Zealian artifact detected by Belthasar.  Problem is, it's also attracted the venerable Dalton to it; after he was shoved into the Gate by the Epoch in the first game, he floated around in a limbo dimension not unlike that of Crono's nightmare.  Crono's escapades in limbo will mess with the Tesseract enough to allow Dalton to center himself in the timeline again, and thus he's back for revenge, dastardly as always.  Dalton's character, as in jsondag's current beta, will retain the utter jackassery he possessed in CT.  The Elder of the Last Village will get pwned by Dalton after he demands to know the location of the powerful Zeal artifact.  Janus isn't going to let him go unpunished; he has demonstrated no remorse or repentance for his actions under Queen Zeal's rule.  He'd have some kind of a mountain citadel that the player would have to fight through, and at the end, they'd encounter Dalton.  This would be a solo battle, the Magus versus Dalton.  At the end, they'd have some dialogue about justice and all the crimes Dalton has committed, and after a bit about the Black Wind and a prayer in Latin, the screen will go back and Janus will decapitate him.  Following that, the Crew will earn their prize and the sidequest will be complete.

Feedback?  It's what the Post button's for, d00ds.  Also, only ZeaLitY ever gave me any feedback on the Glenn idea.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on December 31, 2005, 07:20:43 am
Magus talking about Dalton's crimes and punishments? Mmmh... Dalton killed less people than Magus no?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on December 31, 2005, 07:47:41 am
Dunno.  Magus was a warlord, Dalton was a slavemaster.  The difference between them is that the former understands what he did wrong.  However, mere understanding is not the same thing as redemption.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Agent 12 on December 31, 2005, 04:29:45 pm
I realize it's skeletal, Zeality and Chickenlump have begun to do clean up.  I've gotten to the 65 BIL part of the Story and thus cannot move on until we export/import the Rom (65 BIL is corrupted on the CE rom).  Here's an early pic of what Chickenlump has done.  I'll send the newer one later tonight

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jsondag2/shared/ctloc143.png
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chickenlump on December 31, 2005, 05:21:35 pm
Here is a pretty much finished version of it. (http://ce.herograw.org/CL/ctloc007.png)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on December 31, 2005, 05:32:20 pm
Looks great. I finished the top part of the Beast's forest today, so the only area left is the main plains first seen upon entering. Once that's exported, we'll have an updated Sargon's house, Beast's forest, and 12000 Overworld set of exported maps in http://ce.herograw.org/Library .
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Agent 12 on December 31, 2005, 06:11:47 pm
Here is what is probably the second to last version on the current CE rom.  I have one more cutscene but then we can't do anymore due to the epoch screen (Note Skeleton version still no imports of what ChickenLump and Zeality have done, that's for the new Rom)

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jsondag2/shared/Chrono%20Trigger%20%28US%29.smc

I'd do the cutscene now but I have a new years party tonight, and I want ya all to see some progress as we go into 2006.  Since the Magus quest this has a skeleton Chronopolis, Zenan Bridge Fight, Go get Epoch, Turn on Generators.

Happy New Years!!

Note again:  I dont know what the protocol is for posting Roms on THIS forum since it's closed and all....and I've failed at making every patch I've ever tried so if someone wants to make a patch of it feel free.



--jp
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 02, 2006, 04:32:00 am
What Glenn idea, Hadriel? Your imagination is so loquatious I lost track of all these ideas.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 02, 2006, 09:28:57 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
What Glenn idea, Hadriel? Your imagination is so loquatious I lost track of all these ideas.


Quote from: A few posts ago, I
Also, I had a dialogue-related idea.  It centers around Glenn at the fight with the Mystics/optional massacre.  I figured that after the battle, Glenn could be shown uttering a prayer for the souls of the departed, because he's the type who'd do something like that.  As far as the content of the prayer, I was thinking something along the lines of the prayers used in The Boondock Saints.  There were several of them, appropriate for different times in the story; I was thinking that someone could come up with something similar for use by Glenn on this occasion.

For reference, here is the text of the MacManus family prayer:
And shepherds we shall be
For Thee, my Lord, for Thee
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand
That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti.


And here's two of Il Duce's prayers that I personally like.
And when I vest my flashing sword
And my hand takes hold in judgement
I will take vengeance upon mine enemies
And I will repay those who hase me.
 O Lord, raise me to Thy right hand
And count me amoung Thy saints.


Never shall innocent blood be shed, but the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.  The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 03, 2006, 03:29:26 am
Oh, that. Bother, slipped my mind. Yes, very good. I would say go for it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 03, 2006, 03:12:17 pm
Ever seen Boondock Saints?  Good movie; it's about these two guys who basically get told by God to go out and kill a bunch of dirty mob kings.

Also, this is probably just me and my powerup-whore-ness, but I'd kind of like to see Glenn deflect bullets with the Masamune.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 03, 2006, 06:44:58 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
Ever seen Boondock Saints?  Good movie; it's about these two guys who basically get told by God to go out and kill a bunch of dirty mob kings.

Also, this is probably just me and my powerup-whore-ness, but I'd kind of like to see Glenn deflect bullets with the Masamune.


No, my brother saw it, and said it was really good. But I never actually saw it myself.

As far as Glenn and the Masamune like that goes... well, it wouldn't be wholly off. It would be like Glenn vs. the Freelancer all over again, but one step up. I think he could do it. The only better swordsman than he in all of history would be Crono (counting the fact that Glenn might be superior due to his wielding of the Masamune: alone, I'd think Crono to be better. With it, maybe an equal match, or Glenn as the better.) I think you should really up-play the legend of Glenn in later times. That is, in 1000AD. He should be the Lancelot-like knight of the middle-ages - renowned even so highly, and spoken of with supernatural powers (which, in this case, would be right.) I know it's done to a certain extent, but I think it should be hightened even more. Maybe even throw in people speaking apocryphal quotes by him. Like 'etc. etc.' - such were the words of Knight Glenn in the middle ages.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 03, 2006, 09:49:25 pm
You'd of course have to lower Glenn's ability from its high-level Lavos-combating magnitude to fit him in the game, even though he doesn't undergo a similar ordeal to what the rest of the team has to deal with; having him a few levels higher than the rest of the party when he's obtained can help with getting that point across.

Apocryphal quotes are a good idea.  It could lead to some funny stuff.  

Quote from: Glenn
I never said that!


Quote from: Unsuspecting moron
...hey, wait a second...


Quote from: Glenn
Uh, verily I just remembered that I hath left a cake in the oven!  Fare thee well!


Quote from: Unsuspecting moron
...in the what?


I've got an image of my head of the Zefram Cochrane sequences from Star Trek: First Contact:

Quote from: Zefram Cochrane
I don't wanna be a statue!


The style of dialogue in the main story of the game is a difficult thing to work out.  For the most part, I believe it should retain the general feel of CT's dialogue, save for replacing some of the comic-book-style villainous grandstanding with something more actually evil.  The feel of the game overall is a bit darker, but the word choices and the tone of voice should end up being just as reflective of the team's character as the lighter dialogue of CT.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on January 08, 2006, 11:32:58 am
Hmm, last time I go on vacation. I've got a bit to catch up upon.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 10, 2006, 03:44:20 am
I'll send everyone who's still working on the project the master story outline.  There's a few adjustments in it, but nothing incredibly major.  This version of the outline contains the storyline in its entirety from the beginning all the way to the final battle, with the exception of a couple of side quests.  The ending still needs to be worked on, but that'll keep people updated.  Just PM or AIM me for a copy.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Mystik3eb on January 10, 2006, 05:35:34 am
Thank you! I was afraid I'd have to start surfing through old threads...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Agent 12 on January 12, 2006, 05:35:10 am
OK, critical moment here.  Is replacing Ayla or Frog with Human Glenn posssible.  We will shortly be coming to the 600 AD segment.  

Programmer input:  Atleast for now it would make more sense to replace with Glenn over schala because we currently can't do custom techs and we can atleast salvage a decent amount of Frog's techs to Glenn.

Of course as we all know Ayla and Frog are both "short" during running sequences which I assume will cause problems.  We need to know what can be done.

--jp
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 12, 2006, 11:05:38 am
Well, if push comes to shove, I'm for making Schala shorter; she looked rather kiddish in Chrono Cross anyway.  Under the circumstances in which she's acquired, it wouldn't surprise either the characters or the players if some features of her physical form have been altered.  Glenn, by contrast, needs to be human, or there's no point in including him.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Agent 12 on January 12, 2006, 04:09:10 pm
Just wanted to note that there was no attachment to the email I got today concerning the plot.  It seems it's the same for JossiRossi.

--jp
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 12, 2006, 04:24:01 pm
About the whole Ayla-Glenn-Frog-Schala thing... I'm still more for Glenn replacing Ayla, rather than Schala. A very short picture would just look contrived and odd - though she might in truth be short, the sprite in the original didn't appear so, so to shrink it makes it look like a cut corner. About Ayla's running sprite being smaller... well, can one not then make Glenn in a similar fashion, hunched over at least. He was a frog for so very long, there's probably some of that left in him. I don't know... as neat as Schala would be, I've still heavily on the Glenn side. Personally, I think the best solution, if both are no implementable, is to poll all those involved in the project, and see what the general concensus is.

Oh, and about the email... is that all there is? Just those few changes? Or were you going to send the entire story?

Regarding the changes, though... two things. Firstly, Kasmir is, I think, a very good name change from Serran. But secondly... I'd be wary about calling the bioweapon Geddon. The reason is, remember the Tower of Gheddon in Cross? Yeah, it might have an h in there, but it's the same name. For that reason I'd be a little wary. Maybe some other Revalations reference? Apollyon, which is 'Destroyer', maybe? Or, if you want the whole last-battle reference, it would be better not to splice the name at such an point, taking Armageddon and taking geddon from it, as though that was the second part to the name. It's Ar-mageddon, after all, or Har-Megiddo. In that case, if you want something similar to Geddon, I'd sugest Megiddo.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 12, 2006, 04:45:15 pm
Perhaps Glenn can float akin to Magus now, at an extreme angle.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 12, 2006, 04:53:18 pm
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Perhaps Glenn can float akin to Magus now, at an extreme angle.


You see, I rather like that. It makes him look really swift. Not just running around, but incredibly fleet-footed. A super-hero of the middle-ages, so to speak (which, in a sense, he is. After all, how many knights could use magic?)

Oh, and Hadriel, I wrote this to you in a reply email, but here's the suggestion so that everyone can see:
Hey, here's a suggestion, something that could just be an off-hand remark, maybe, just a background thing... you could make an order or caste amongst the people the Kerubim (maybe from this Marle gets that bow by a similar name?), which is more phonetical, I think, for Cherubim. You could just have one of them refer to having the Malakh-ar Kerubim stand watch for whatever reason, maybe in the middle of their deliberations. Maybe, when they are asked for aid, one of the council, or whoever, could say something to the effect that 'the sleepless eyes of the Malakh-ar Kerubim will stand watch over these happenings, and give us report of all that passes on the surface of this little kingdom' (oh, by the way, double influence there. The 'sleepless eyes' came to me thinking of the old hymn which says 'At His feet the six-winged Seraph / Cherubim with sleepless eye...'; and the 'little kingdom' reference for the earth came from Tolkien's Silmarillion, where, when the Valar are engaged in war with the Dark Lord Melkor, it says that Tulkas the Strong - later to become on the Valar - heard from far away that there was war in the Little Kingdom, ie. Arda, or the Earth.) Anyway, tell me what you think of it. I'll post it on the forums so that everyone can consider this. It wouldn't be anything major, I don't think, just a cryptic single line to add something unexplained to the ordering of these ancient people.
Like I said, not much, just a single line. But I think it would work.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 13, 2006, 02:15:12 am
Quote from: jsondag2
Just wanted to note that there was no attachment to the email I got today concerning the plot.  It seems it's the same for JossiRossi.

--jp


Bah, my Internet failx0rz.  I'll send it again.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 13, 2006, 02:22:21 am
Any opinions on my idea?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on January 13, 2006, 02:13:27 pm
Resend it to me as well Hadriel.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 13, 2006, 07:28:19 pm
Shit, did anyone get it?

ARRRGGHHH...

I'm already pissed off today.  I'll try resending it again after a while, provided I'm not drunk, dead or in jail for venting my anger on a random hobo.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: JossiRossi on January 13, 2006, 07:55:15 pm
If you re-sent I still haven't gotten it. (And didn't get it the first time naturally)

Likely options are you accidentally forgot to actually add the file to the email, or it was possibly removed by your email service if it thought it was infected with a virus.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: JossiRossi on January 18, 2006, 05:49:45 am
Plot coming?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 19, 2006, 04:22:30 pm
Yeah, eventually.  Turns out I'm not just having problems sending the plot, I can't even upload pictures to anything I use to host images.  I'll probably end up having to put it on a floppy and send it via a library computer.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 20, 2006, 03:38:06 am
And don't forget my idea while you're at it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 20, 2006, 05:39:35 am
So I'm awake right now, and I've been tossing around names for Lavos' bitch of a bioweapon.  In a way, this thing is like the son of Lavos, in the same sense that Jesus is the son of God.  So I figure, why not use one of Jesus' titles, or take one and twist it in a way that'll get me sent to the special hell reserved for sexual predators, people who talk in the theater, and all those fucking n00bs on CounterStrike?

The idea behind using Geddon was to reference two things at once, especially since what I had in mind for the actual battle mechanics involved the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which you'd already know if my Internet wasn't being a dick.  Basically, they fight King Zeal first, and then the weapon.  After that, King Zeal manages to break free of Lavos' mind control, and there's a monologue about the nature of Zurvan and all the ways he's failed his kingdom and his children.  Following that, there's a surreal corridor resembling the final areas of Final Fantasy IX and X, except for all the kickass death metal right at the end, complete with a Save Point.  After they get to the end of that, the weapon's mutated into its final form.  It resembles a cross between Lavos, Ultima Weapon, and some sick creature out of every supernatural, gothic horror game you can imagine.  It has its core, plus four cycling "armors" you have to destroy to get to it.  The armors are each shaped differently, and they're all named after demons representing war, famine, pestilence, and reality televi--I mean death.  Since Lavos is attempting to assume the role of God, in a moral sense as well as with regards to the sheer acquisition of power, why not have this bioweapon be its son, and King Zeal be his John the Baptist?  So I went to Wikipedia and found some names for exploitation:

The Greek term Kyrios, simply meaning "the Lord."
Divi filius, meaning "son of God"; this was a title used by Roman emperors.
INRI, the abbreviation found on the cross above Jesus' head.  It stands for Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum, or "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews."
Kalima, meaning "the Word."  This is a title given to Jesus in the Qur'an.

Which one's the easiest to twist around to mean something vulgar, vile, or generally threatening?

Also, there are some options for the names of the four demons.  There exists Samael, an Angel of Death sometimes identified with Satan, or Asmodeus, another bad dude.  Keeping in mind that war and death are different things, Alastor is another usable name.  Astaroth still hasn't been used, and there are a bunch of other names of angels who by human standards would toe the line or even cross it due to their jobs, Azrael (Izrail in the original Islamic text) being one.

I have no classes today, so I'm going to put this stuff on a floppy and send it at the library.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Daniel Krispin on January 20, 2006, 08:36:55 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
So I'm awake ...aeorum, or "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews."
Kalima, meaning "the Word."  This is a title given to Jesus in the Qur'an.

Which one's the easiest to twist around to mean something vulgar, vile, or generally threatening?


Not Kyrios; INRI sounds like its trying too hard and not really saying anything; Kalima means nothing in context either. Divi Filius might work in that it's a little more generic in some way, but says something more specific in allusion. Remember: last thing you want to do with a religious allusion is throw it in for the shock value. That usually just backfires. So I'd suggest that one. Leave it just as it is. Lavos styles himself god after all.

Quote from: Hadriel

Also, there are some options for the names of the four demons.  There exists Samael, an Angel of Death sometimes identified with Satan, or Asmodeus, another bad dude.  Keeping in mind that war and death are different things, Alastor is another usable name.  Astaroth still hasn't been used, and there are a bunch of other names of angels who by human standards would toe the line or even cross it due to their jobs, Azrael (Izrail in the original Islamic text) being one.

I have no classes today, so I'm going to put this stuff on a floppy and send it at the library.


Alastor is an avenging spirit in Greek myth. If you want some other names of demonic things, there is Apollyon from Revelation, which is translated as 'destroyer', but is more of a combinations between a root for destruction and 'apo', which denotes 'away from'... so it seems rather viciously destructive. However... here's my suggestion. Take each one from a different tradtion. You've already got a Greek one: Alastor, who is an Avenger. You could then take Izrail (do take the original) from Islam, and that one is one more like death. Look to the Hindu stories - they have many demons in theirs - and you'll easily find a third. And for one wholly different from those... Surtur. That's the Norse demon of fire who finally leaves his home of Muspelheim at the day of Ragnarok. Odin, seeing a vision of that last battle, sees at the end of it Surtur spread his fire over the whole world, and all things perish. So that's one suggestion of the Four: Alastor, Izrail, Surtur, and a Hindu one. I have another idea, though.

Why not keep the original? Who, after all, knows what the original of those four horsemen are? Let's see... well, the first is a rider on a white horse, with a bow and crown and going to conquer. The name I can think of might be the adjective for 'white', and that's 'Leukos'. The second... well, I think he's connected with war; he's on a red horse. I suppose the word for war would be best. And that's Aręs. The next... he's famine. Limos. Hmmm... alright, these don't sound that good. Scratch this idea. But consider the other.

Anyway... still no thought on my idea for that line?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 21, 2006, 10:53:38 pm
Damn, now that is a plot. It has my blood boiling. I'm glad to have started in motion something like this.

I'm not going to make any changes or anything; I'm away from that. But I willl read through it and point anything out that could be improved, I suppose.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Mystik3eb on January 22, 2006, 07:43:02 am
I'm all for either Kyrios or Kalima. Those both sound potentially fighteningly twist-able.

The names you chose for the four guardians work. I just find it funny that two of them are Forsaken in Wheel of Time.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on January 22, 2006, 12:55:00 pm
Fantastic plot Hadriel. I honestly cannot wait to see this dream realised.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on January 22, 2006, 02:21:47 pm
Hey, just a thought: Is it possible to rip songs out of other SNES Roms and put them into CE? I was just playing through Seiken Densetsu 3 again, and the song "Political Pressure" (Glass Desert area) would fit perfectly for Crono's nightmare, where the world has been transformed to fit Lavos' image. Also, the song "Three of Darkside" would fit a ruined world pretty well.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on January 22, 2006, 03:26:00 pm
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
About the whole Ayla-Glenn-Frog-Schala thing... I'm still more for Glenn replacing Ayla, rather than Schala. A very short picture would just look contrived and odd - though she might in truth be short, the sprite in the original didn't appear so, so to shrink it makes it look like a cut corner. About Ayla's running sprite being smaller... well, can one not then make Glenn in a similar fashion, hunched over at least. He was a frog for so very long, there's probably some of that left in him. I don't know... as neat as Schala would be, I've still heavily on the Glenn side. Personally, I think the best solution, if both are no implementable, is to poll all those involved in the project, and see what the general concensus is.

Someone (JLukas?) proposed that if the ROM isn't big enough to hold all the game, we could just make 2 ROM hacks and play the 2 parts with the same .srm file. My idea is that if we can't decide whether to make Glenn or Schala playable, maybe we could make Glenn playable in one of the ROM, and Schala playable in the other... if we use 2 ROMs that is.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 22, 2006, 03:28:28 pm
Quote from: Janus Zeal
Hey, just a thought: Is it possible to rip songs out of other SNES Roms and put them into CE? I was just playing through Seiken Densetsu 3 again, and the song "Political Pressure" (Glass Desert area) would fit perfectly for Crono's nightmare, where the world has been transformed to fit Lavos' image. Also, the song "Three of Darkside" would fit a ruined world pretty well.


Yes, but no one around the Compendium except the actual rom hackers are capable of it at the moment. It should be a relatively simple process, but does require some knowledge to pull off. Geiger has a patch that has FF6's Veldt theme replacing "Memories of Green." CT's instruments, of course.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 22, 2006, 09:33:48 pm
There are a bunch of different themes I'd like to import, for varying purposes.  Radical Dreamers would be the obvious choice, since Chrono Cross used several pieces lifted directly from RD.  The Final Fantasy games would be the next choice, Dancing Mad, Decisive Battle, and the various iterations of Terra's theme foremost among possible imports.  I kind of wish we could import music from the PlayStation FFs, since they're MIDI as well.

Most imported music wouldn't be used in the main storyline, instead being relegated to optional sequences such as the endings and developer fights, if we get around to it.  If we do get to do a developer fight sequence, distinctive battle music would be in order for all of the combatants, likely running the gamut of the music available on the SNES.  Of course, we'd run into even more copyright issues by using music or sprites from non-Square games.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on January 22, 2006, 10:56:47 pm
Well, give these a listen if you're interested:

http://rapidshare.de/files/11619827/09_-_Political_Pressure.mp3.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/11619884/17_-_Three_of_Darkside.mp3.html

I really think these would go well with Crono's nightmare of a world ruled by Lavos. If you already have something else in mind, no problem.

I have the rest of the Seiken Densestsu 3 soundtrack as well if needed.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 22, 2006, 11:54:27 pm
So, all we need now are the ending specifics and a Mystic Knights sidequest.  Anyone have any ideas?

Then, of course, we need to set down a defined list of equipment, enemy, and boss names and properties.  Fortunately, we've already got at least a bit on that.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on January 23, 2006, 01:02:47 am
Ending specifics - After Crono and Marle sacrifice themselves to defeat Geddon, the game should try and end on a happier note. I know, CM are dead, Schala is gone (again), there isn't too much for the player to be happy about.

I don't know, maybe it's just a childish desire to wish for a happy ending, but I'd like the game to end with a hope for the future, it is what Crono and Marle gave their lives for.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: JossiRossi on January 23, 2006, 10:12:46 pm
I'm reading the plot, so far it's been pretty good not too much to gripe about but there are some issues regarding the effects of time.

Now I know that it's a bit wonky in CT how time travel affects the party, but here's an example of something I'm not sure of.

Quote
The team demands to know what happened, and how his predictions on the outcome of the Porre event could be in error; Belthasar explains that the timeline has been not only changed, but fundamentally altered by a catastrophic error, but he is unable to pinpoint its source, since the changes are subtle;


So what had just happened prior is that Belth said "Don't worry it'll be fine nothing bad will happen" then the 3 go back and the bad thing happened. After they return to the future Belth says, "Oh that's wierd that shouldn't have happened."

Again it depends on how we treat the time travel but this leads to some issues. I haven't played CC so I know nothing of FATE or Chronopolis directly but we can't assume all players to have played CC in the first palce so the concerns need to be addressed I think.

If you go back in time and things get altered, when you go to the future, those altered events are now the ONLY past that exists. So when the 3 go back to Belth after seeing things go wrong, Belth would say, "What do you mean? Of course stuff went bad, that's what happened, I have to reason to say otherwise"  

Nor would he be able to track timeline changes due to subtlty. If the changes are too small to be able to pinpoint that means Belth is using a fact checker to determine changes. You'd in theory have an "old" database for comparison to a "new" changed database. However this can't exist because as the timeline changes so would the "old" change. This is a bit rambly and hard to follow so.

How will timetravel actually affect things? Because if we have 3 different styles of time travel effects it's going to be wierd (the reason I dislike that Marle disappeared and then reappeared because her ancestor returned, it doesn't fit the same mold as much the rest of the affects.)
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 23, 2006, 10:52:43 pm
Quote from: JossiRossi
I'm reading the plot, so far it's been pretty good not too much to gripe about but there are some issues regarding the effects of time.

Now I know that it's a bit wonky in CT how time travel affects the party, but here's an example of something I'm not sure of.

Quote
The team demands to know what happened, and how his predictions on the outcome of the Porre event could be in error; Belthasar explains that the timeline has been not only changed, but fundamentally altered by a catastrophic error, but he is unable to pinpoint its source, since the changes are subtle;


So what had just happened prior is that Belth said "Don't worry it'll be fine nothing bad will happen" then the 3 go back and the bad thing happened. After they return to the future Belth says, "Oh that's wierd that shouldn't have happened."

Again it depends on how we treat the time travel but this leads to some issues. I haven't played CC so I know nothing of FATE or Chronopolis directly but we can't assume all players to have played CC in the first palce so the concerns need to be addressed I think.

If you go back in time and things get altered, when you go to the future, those altered events are now the ONLY past that exists. So when the 3 go back to Belth after seeing things go wrong, Belth would say, "What do you mean? Of course stuff went bad, that's what happened, I have to reason to say otherwise"  

Nor would he be able to track timeline changes due to subtlty. If the changes are too small to be able to pinpoint that means Belth is using a fact checker to determine changes. You'd in theory have an "old" database for comparison to a "new" changed database. However this can't exist because as the timeline changes so would the "old" change. This is a bit rambly and hard to follow so.

How will timetravel actually affect things? Because if we have 3 different styles of time travel effects it's going to be wierd (the reason I dislike that Marle disappeared and then reappeared because her ancestor returned, it doesn't fit the same mold as much the rest of the affects.)


Yeah, that's basically what Belthasar says to them.  You're pretty new to the site, so you might not have read all of the various theories on time travel that have been established.  Like any model or set of models, there are limitations to their utility, but they're the best we've got right now to explain the various phenomena seen in the series.  There are two concepts from CT that lend to this formula of a timeline that dynamically changes; they're loosely based on real-life situations in relativistic physics.

Concept number one is Time Error.  It basically states that if you go back 400 years into the past and stay there for five minutes, when you return to your era, five minutes will have passed in the present.  Gates propel you a set "distance" forward or backward in time, not to a certain point.  If they only took you to a certain point, they wouldn't be visible or usable at any other time coordinate, anyway.  Corollary to this effect, temporal changes are not visible to observers until a point in Time Error at which they're actually put into effect.  Without King Zeal's interference in the Porre/Guardia situation, it would have panned out more peacefully, but he doesn't actually put his plan into effect until between the team's arrival in 2302 and their return.

Concept number two is Time Traveler's Immunity, which is a bit bizarre and irregular.  Basically, once you've traveled in time, you're immune to changes in the new timeline; you've already created another timeline just by being there, and you have no origin in this new timeline.  Therefore, nothing done within that timeline will erase you, and it's impossible to access lower-order timelines or Time Errors except under special circumstances.  Equivalent forms of you get Time Bastarded and sent to the DBT; this isn't like being killed, it's merely being subsumed into a more "senior" form of yourself from a lower-order timeline.  The only way to actually eliminate someone with Time Traveler's Immunity is either to kill them manually, or to go back to the timeline in which the lowest-order form of them originated and destroy them there before they acquired their immunity.  Normally, this isn't possible.  However, the Chrono Break is explicitly designed to do this.  

The Marle paradox was abnormal, as it was effectively a grandfather paradox, a feature that the series doesn't focus heavily on; it's best to say that Crono and Lucca were unaffected by the results, but Marle was, or that they ended up in one of two possible timelines that resulted from the paradox.  Either way, outside interference is required to resolve this, and that's what Crono and Lucca provide.

As for Belthasar, he possesses Time Traveler's Immunity from being sent to 2300 A.D., so he can observe the changes in the timeline.  He performs similar activities in Chrono Cross.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: GrayLensman on January 24, 2006, 12:02:56 am
Quote from: Hadriel
As for Belthasar, he possesses Time Traveler's Immunity from being sent to 2300 A.D., so he can observe the changes in the timeline.  He performs similar activities in Chrono Cross.


Since Belthasar time travelled to 2300 AD, his past world-line in Zeal is protected, but not anything that happens after he arrives.  Remember, after the Ocean Palace disaster, Melchior did not act as if the Black Omen suddenly appeared in 1000 AD from his perspective.  He would remember it being there for the entire time since he warped in from 12,000 BC.

If Belthasar stayed in 2300 AD while the other time travellers changed the past, he would only remember the events of the new timeline after the point he warped in from Zeal.  You will need to think up another way for Belthasar to preserve his memories and records of the previous time-line.

Edit: I suggest the time egg.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: JossiRossi on January 24, 2006, 03:39:54 am
Yeah time travel immunity is not some kind of persistent ability. If you've ever played the Journeyman Project, the game addressed some of these issues. Basically it made it so that time changes weren't instant it was like a wave would go. They had devices set up to detect time changes so that an agent could basically miss the wave (the player jumped to a time where the wave already occured and thus was not affected by it).

It wouldn't necesarily work for the game to have a realistic time change model because if you see a problem in the future, you'd go to the past and change it, thus changing your very own past experinces making it so that in your mental past the problem never actualy existed.

I dunno, I don't mind having a time theory that isn't really scientific or necesarily enirely logical, I just would like for it to be a consistent theory that doesn't get broken all the time.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Chrono'99 on January 24, 2006, 04:14:01 am
Time Bastard is kinda hard to follow sometimes. If we apply it to CT:CE, Schala shouldn't time travel because her pendant would disappear (because Marle's pendant, the same item, already has Time Traveler Immunity). And there's already a similar inconsistancy in CC: Kid time travels with Schala's pendant...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 24, 2006, 04:10:48 pm
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Hadriel
As for Belthasar, he possesses Time Traveler's Immunity from being sent to 2300 A.D., so he can observe the changes in the timeline.  He performs similar activities in Chrono Cross.


Since Belthasar time travelled to 2300 AD, his past world-line in Zeal is protected, but not anything that happens after he arrives.  Remember, after the Ocean Palace disaster, Melchior did not act as if the Black Omen suddenly appeared in 1000 AD from his perspective.  He would remember it being there for the entire time since he warped in from 12,000 BC.

If Belthasar stayed in 2300 AD while the other time travellers changed the past, he would only remember the events of the new timeline after the point he warped in from Zeal.  You will need to think up another way for Belthasar to preserve his memories and records of the previous time-line.

Edit: I suggest the time egg.


Chronopolis is in a Pocket Dimension for most of the game; that could qualify as a protection mechanism.  Though Belthasar wouldn't know of any imminent threats to his continued existence before the Pocket Dimension is triggered, he would likely have had the mechanism installed as a fail-safe device.  CE's conception of Chronopolis isn't just there to look good and provide a base of operations, it's supposed to be a fully functional military research facility, and in order for this to work, it has to be realistically designed and engineered with multiple fail-safes and backups and a layout that doesn't easily allow infiltration.

As for the pendant issue, thanks for catching me on that.  Schala needs another one for gameplay anyway, so that little roadblock is the least of our worries.

As far as the preservation of memories, Time Traveler's Immunity is probably the easiest route we're going to find.

Any other technical issues?
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: JossiRossi on January 24, 2006, 04:58:26 pm
If Belthasar has TTI then he'll remember the destroyed future Lavos made and all the despair, pain, and lonliness that drove him mad right?

Or also important if Belth has TTI then although the future changed and was saved, the TTI would mean that all those changes did not affect Belth himself, so he'd still be crazy and dead.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: GrayLensman on January 24, 2006, 06:23:01 pm
Quote from: Hadriel
As far as the preservation of memories, Time Traveler's Immunity is probably the easiest route we're going to find.


As I stated earlier, TTI would only protect Belthasar's past world-line previous to his arrival in 2300 AD.  If Belthasar is inside Chronopolis protected by a pocket dimension, then there should be no problem is the time travellers change the past.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 25, 2006, 04:56:11 am
Quote from: JossiRossi
If Belthasar has TTI then he'll remember the destroyed future Lavos made and all the despair, pain, and lonliness that drove him mad right?

Or also important if Belth has TTI then although the future changed and was saved, the TTI would mean that all those changes did not affect Belth himself, so he'd still be crazy and dead.


As GrayLensman pointed out, only his past life in Zeal is unalterable at this point.  He had limited immunity up until the main bulk of the CE plot starts; the pocket dimension affords him the rest of his protection.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 28, 2006, 05:51:23 am
A double post/bump for the sake of an issue I'd thought of.

If Schala's only able to be implemented in the form of a child, I imagine that would require differing storyline points and a completely different characterization for her.  In that case, Magus would likely take upon even more of the role of a protective older brother, and Schala's memories would be fragmented.  However, I'm wondering if it's possible to escape the overwrought cliches associated with that "powerful/precocious but terribly naive and vulnerable child" syndrome if that's what it comes to.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Mystik3eb on January 28, 2006, 06:35:11 am
*Pst* This thread is tacked. There's no need for bumping.

^_^

As for a condensed plot summary...wasn't there word of it being sent around to people? I'd LOVE to get my hands on it, if so. Cuz honestly, I don't wanna go through 43 pages of this thread to get it all. Call it lack of commitment, laziness, impatience, lack of focus, whatever you want.

I do like what I've seen/read already, though, in the demo and last page or so.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on January 28, 2006, 08:58:56 pm
Yeah, I sent it to a bunch of the members of the development team about a week ago.  I had to use another comp because I can't send stuff for some reason.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Janus Zeal on February 04, 2006, 09:40:17 pm
Hmmm, slow week...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: ZeaLitY on February 04, 2006, 09:42:24 pm
Aye, we're probably going to wait until TF is updated before moving on. Right now, there's a problem with importing strings. We could conceivably remove all the strings, export the event files, and then add them back in, but a new version of TF will have other fixes as well (and I'd like to just play it conservative). Nonetheless, that option is still available if someone wishes to try it.
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: DivineDragoonKain on February 12, 2006, 03:03:05 am
Mmm...
Title: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
Post by: Hadriel on February 14, 2006, 03:03:52 am
You're getting laid for V-Day, aren't you...

*sniffles*

Anyway, what about an actual game script?  I have a few dialogue exchange ideas thought up, but not nearly enough to actually cover an entire game's worth of storyline.