Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development  (Read 44111 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #255 on: July 19, 2005, 06:27:55 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
If there was a physical shell filled with plasma, it would be much like an RPG launcher that launched plasma grenades, which incidentally is a weapon I came up with for Lucca.  The plasma gun in the original game purported that the projectile itself was made of the substance, which is erroneous.  Plasma itself would have a pathetic range, due to its natural state; it's gas that's been ionized by being heated to such temperatures that the electrons are stripped away, and such gas would not stay together.  In essence, a plasma gun would be more akin to shooting hot steam at someone.  

On Marle's weapons: Those are some pretty awesome names, and they're a lot better than anything I'd come up with.  What I'd thought of is a sort of "rail crossbow."  Admittedly, though, it'd be hard to best such a weapon, but it is quite likely that Chronopolis possesses such things.  There are only two issues with those names: Paris' Bow is unnecessary seeing as Alexandros is already present, and the Fairy Bow has the same name as the one used by Link in Ocarina of Time, which might piss some people off.  Ishtar could be replaced by something relating to time.


Well, I'm not sure if you read me 'final' list near the end of my post or not, but I took out all of them I didn't really like, leaving the ones I thought better. Alexandros and Paris I got rid of, though I did like the Fairy Bow one, not knowing it was already in another game. What about Fay Arrow, then? Fay and fairy are essentially the same, after all. And as for Ishtar, hmmm... well, Babylonians would have had no god for time that I know of. One might say KronianBow, as in, to do with Kronos, but he had a sickle, not a bow.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Lucca's weapons: Because of the presence of Melchior and Belthasar in Chronopolis, Lucca will likely have some very heavy artillery such as high-powered sniper rifles even from the very start of the game.  As 2300 A.D. is clearly meant to be futuristic and obviously is three hundred years ahead of us, one would expect the technology to have advanced even beyond our already considerable firearm capabilities.  I do like the QuantaShot name, though.


Ah, all right. I had a difficult time with hers, as it is.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Glenn's weapons: In Scenario 8, the one that introduces the Vanguard and puts Glenn back on the team, Serran gets hold of the Masamune for a limited period of time.  When the team retrieves it, its power has been diluted from being in his hands.  This would allow for other weaponry such as that which you suggested, because Gram, Durandal, and a dwarven sword are just too good to pass up.  At the end, though, he would acquire a supremely powerful version of the Masamune.  This would make sense seeing as it's already the best weapon when you get it in Cross.


Well, as I said in my last preamble, I actually don't like the idea of true mythological weapons, in the off chance that they've already been used (and the neccessary explanation of how they found their way into the Chrono world.) Caliburn is the only one I think should be considered, as it is so unknown.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Magus' weapons: Why not give them all mythological names?  Thanatos, Erebos, and such are good, but there are a bunch of mighty warriors and evil spirits out there.  Why not Astaroth, or some crazy war god from Japan?


Well, let's see what I can think of as far as evil and nasty things from myth... Thanatos and Erebos as I mentioned, Charon, Typhoeus, Hekate, Eris... though come to think of what you said, lesser things might be better. A general type of thing, rather than a name proper. Like 'Gorgon' (though that's a stupid one). Oh, and I don't off hand know any Japanese war gods. All I know are... what are they called, Inzanami and Inzagami, Ameteratsu, and a few things like that.

Quote from: Hadriel

On Crono's weapons: I'd avoid using mithril, namely because every RPG and its grandma has that.  His weapons are mostly Eastern in their style, but that didn't stop them from making Masamune a broadsword.  He has to restock something after they go through the time warp that takes away all their awesome weapons from CT, and since he's in Chronopolis it's going to be something technological.   After that, we can move on to Jade Hilt and other things.


Well, as I said, not one in one hundred people will know that Truesilver is mithril, guarenteed. The silver ties in with Chrono Cross, a little, but does not directly reference mithril. And I think Truesilver has a neat ring to it.

Oh, and the Masamune is not a broadsword. It is a two-handed sword, a greatsword, or whatever... but not a broadsword.

I'll try to think of some more weapons. In light of what's been said, I would say of my previous list the ones that could for now be still considered are:

Yew Bow, Apollon or FarShooter, Fay Arrow, Ivory Bow, QuantaShot, SnipeShot, ArmingEdge, Gilt Sword, DwarfSword, Erebos, Jade Hilt, and Truesilver.

How does that sound? That's only... four for Marle, two for Lucca, three for Glenn, one for Magus, and two for Crono.

Oswego del Fuego

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #256 on: July 19, 2005, 07:48:04 pm »
Wow.  I've spent the last few hours reading all of this, and, as Marcy would say, I am, like, totally impressed.  I won't comment too much on the plot.  It's simply too vast to pick apart, and there's very little I could add that's new.  I will say, though, that I like it.  A lot!

Now, a few concerns.  I really don't like the bit about Kino biting the big one.  I don't think this adds anything, and it's just a bummer.  I think Kino should be the one explaining the events in his time to CML.  He's the only face from that era that the player will immediately identify with and be glad to see.  Keep him around.

Also, about this fourth guru/deva business.  I think the character and concept surrounding her are good and should stay, but please do not make her THE FOURTH GURU.  There were only three Magi and three acknowledged gurus of Zeal.  It's too big a stretch to add one now.  I argue it would be better to simply have her be analagous to the Gurus.  Perhaps even their equal--but not truly a long-lost member of their group.  It simply does not work, not with the convention by which the Gurus were named in Trigger.

Lastly, weapon/tech names.  Please avoid references to concrete mythological weapons or objects such as Gram and Durandal.  I've seen these in every game from Phantasy Star to Castlevania and they are tired.  Not as cliche as Excalibur, but getting there, due to the number of times they've been used.  I agree with whoever it was that said that more general mythological terms, such as names of places or creatures or whatever, are preferable.  Also, I think it's possible to be too smart by half on this one.  Obscure references are fine, but ones that nobody can understand don't really accomplish what they intend to.

Most of the names you all came up with are fantastic, though.  Arco Dei is awesome, and I also like the more simple names, like Robo's Clasp.  It's perfect.

How about some more Chrono references in names?  "God of War" might make a good name for any weapon.  "Black Wind" would also be a good choice, though you might want to bypass that one since you're already using the name somewhere else.  I REALLY like "Wild Heckran" myself.  Personally, I think "Radical Dream" is the obvious chocie for Lucca's final weapon.  Not only does it tie in with Kid, but it's a nice parallel to the Green Dream from her beloved Robo.  Or maybe simply "Omega" or "OmegaShot" or whatever.  I also like "Naveed," which means "bearer of good news" in Arabic or somesuch.

If you are going to allow references from other Square games, especially from the Trigger era (And you already have Masamune, so why not?), then Save the Queen might be an appropriate uber-weapon for Glenn.

Here are some other names that came to my mind:

Marle:  Cherubim, William Tell
Magus:  Harvester, Massacre, Equalizer

I'd like to see Shock Wave and Raven Armor return, simply because I love them.  I'd also like to see PicoMagnum, Graedus, SeraphSong, and the other equippables we missed out on.  And while you're at it, why not Zonker38, which was referenced but did not exist as an item?

Now, about Schala.  Obviously, having playable Schala is every Trigger fan's fantasy from way back.  But... how will you accomplish this?  Are you definitely going to be able to edit single techs or add new ones?  You should consider your options if not.  In either case, what abilities would Schala have that make her distinctive and useful, and what sort of weapons would she use?  The possibilities are endless.

Also:  I like how the opening scene mirrors Crono's Marle-as-Mom dream from Trigger, not to mention the openings of both Trigger and Cross.  I also like the idea of Lucca inventing some newfangled car.

Finally, I'd just like to add that all of the samples of new graphics and music I've seen are top notch!  Keep up the great work!!!

Oswego del Fuego

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #257 on: July 19, 2005, 07:59:39 pm »
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Wow.  I've spent the last few hours reading all of this, and, as Marcy would say, I am, like, totally impressed.  I won't comment too much on the plot.  It's simply too vast to pick apart, and there's very little I could add that's new.  I will say, though, that I like it.  A lot!

Now, a few concerns.  I really don't like the bit about Kino biting the big one.  I don't think this adds anything, and it's just a bummer.  I think Kino should be the one explaining the events in his time to CML.  He's the only face from that era that the player will immediately identify with and be glad to see.  Keep him around.

Also, about this fourth guru/deva business.  I think the character and concept surrounding her are good and should stay, but please do not make her THE FOURTH GURU.  There were only three Magi and three acknowledged gurus of Zeal.  It's too big a stretch to add one now.  I argue it would be better to simply have her be analagous to the Gurus.  Perhaps even their equal--but not truly a long-lost member of their group.  It simply does not work, not with the convention by which the Gurus were named in Trigger.

Lastly, weapon/tech names.  Please avoid references to concrete mythological weapons or objects such as Gram and Durandal.  I've seen these in every game from Phantasy Star to Castlevania and they are tired.  Not as cliche as Excalibur, but getting there, due to the number of times they've been used.  I agree with whoever it was that said that more general mythological terms, such as names of places or creatures or whatever, are preferable.  Also, I think it's possible to be too smart by half on this one.  Obscure references are fine, but ones that nobody can understand don't really accomplish what they intend to.

Most of the names you all came up with are fantastic, though.  Arco Dei is awesome, and I also like the more simple names, like Robo's Clasp.  It's perfect.

How about some more Chrono references in names?  "God of War" might make a good name for any weapon.  "Black Wind" would also be a good choice, though you might want to bypass that one since you're already using the name somewhere else.  I REALLY like "Wild Heckran" myself.  Personally, I think "Radical Dream" is the obvious chocie for Lucca's final weapon.  Not only does it tie in with Kid, but it's a nice parallel to the Green Dream from her beloved Robo.  Or maybe simply "Omega" or "OmegaShot" or whatever.  I also like "Naveed," which means "bearer of good news" in Arabic or somesuch.

If you are going to allow references from other Square games, especially from the Trigger era (And you already have Masamune, so why not?), then Save the Queen might be an appropriate uber-weapon for Glenn.

Here are some other names that came to my mind:

Marle:  Cherubim, William Tell
Magus:  Harvester, Massacre, Equalizer


Well, Truesilver was not meant as an allusion, actually. I just thought it sounds good, and got the idea from 'true silver', but it is fine by itself, too. And I fully agree with you about the mythological names of weapons that already are weapons (despite the fact that I was the one that listed most of those.)

Naveed, in my opinion, would be a good choice, and to everyone else in the project, I recommend it. Probably best for a bow, I think, or perhaps gun. Cherubim (perhaps written in the more correct Kerubim?) is also good.

There is a problem with most of your other names, however, and that is that they are too long. CT won't allow anything beyond 10 letters, otherwise I was going to put KronianSickle for Magus. As for 'William Tell', actually, that one did cross my mind, in a shorter version of 'Tell Bow', but I never wrote it down. With Magus' weapons, though, I think Hadriel was right, and they should stay with the names of evil spirits of mythology and the like. Erebus, and so forth.

Anybody keeping a running track of ideas that have not yet been discarded?

ZeaLitY

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #258 on: July 19, 2005, 08:10:12 pm »
There will be a time when this entire thread will be reviewed. Its real flaw is that it contains so much information.

In terms of Schala, right now I am not totally sure it can be done, simply because of those difficulties. We can graphically replace Ayla, but I am not sure how we can technically modify her attacks and animations. Techs are also seeming like a far off dream right now, bordering impossibility. I have not deeply consulted with the real rom hackers on this though, so I'm not sure if it is totally unfeasible or not.

Also, concerning Glenn, I'm not sure if we can make him human either. It wouldn't be as simple as replacing Frog's sprite, because Frog is 4 feet versus Glenn's 6 feet. However, Frog's 4 feet sprites are packed into the rom neatly. I have no idea how we'd expand those.

teh Schala

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« Reply #259 on: July 19, 2005, 09:31:14 pm »
Quote from: Oswego del Fuego
Now, a few concerns.  I really don't like the bit about Kino biting the big one.  I don't think this adds anything, and it's just a bummer.  I think Kino should be the one explaining the events in his time to CML.  He's the only face from that era that the player will immediately identify with and be glad to see.  Keep him around.


I'm glad you said such great things about the game.  [ego]And you haven't even seen MY work yet! ;) [/ego] :lol:  I'm really hoping Geiger or someone will discover the secret to Schala soon...we are so close!

As for what you said about Kino, I just had to throw in my 2 cents on that...  I don't know who made the decision to kill off Kino or why they chose to, but I more or less agreed with it...  Basically because in my eyes, Kino was always a nuissance.  I may immediately identify him, but I've never been glad to see him.  First time you meet him, he's jealous of you.  Then he steals your gate key.  Then, with your gate key, he gets raped by some reptites and they take it so you can go and risk your life because he's an ass.  Then he goes and gets captured and taken to the Tyrano Lair.  Thank God he didn't screw up when he went to get the dactyls right before Lavos landed!  The guy was just a moron...He was bound to get killed sooner or later... In MY opinion anyway.

Hadriel

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #260 on: July 19, 2005, 09:50:52 pm »
Good point about Truesilver.  It can stay.

The thing about Kino biting it is precisely that: it is a bummer.  We've taken every opportunity to physically and emotionally kick the shit out of the cast, up to and including Lavos himself.

About Dyasavah: We'd decided against making her the fourth Guru.  Rather, she'll be the head of an order of Zealian priestesses.  I'd thought of something similar to the techno-priests of Isaac Asimov's Foundation trilogy, as technology versus culture is part of the Chrono series' theme.  Ultimately, the desire for uber-technology took down Zeal.

The weapon names are actually Ara Dei and Arco Iris, unless I was more out of it than I thought when I typed them.  Ara Dei is Latin, means "altar of God" and comes courtesy of Daniel.  Arco Iris is probably the only phrase in Spanish that I'll remember outside of basic stuff like como estas.  It means "rainbow."

As I recall, a Chrono "mythology" is what the ZEAL Project was trying to establish a bit of.  Some Mystic mythology would likely form the bulk of such names; usage of Islamic and pagan cultures may serve well for that, due to the various similarities between them.  A bit of Zealian mythology regarding the elemental forces and the power of the planet might also be used.  Wild Heckran is definitely usable.

As far as other Square games go: We might be importing some FF6 music for use in CE.  However, if we can, we're going to try to compose several original tunes of our own for it.  Sephiroth is technically a viable name for Magus' ultimate weapon, as it means "divine pronouncement" in Yiddish, I believe.  The name originates from Jewish Kabbalah.  Unfortunately, the name's sheer publicity might have a negative impact on its usage here.  However, a similar translational strategy to "Truesilver" might be in order for that as well, since...well, let's face it, Sephiroth is unbelievably hardcore and awesome and a whole bunch of other words.  Actually, he's basically a Magus clone...which makes perfect sense, doesn't it?  Someone got an obscure translation of One-Winged Angel they'd care to share?  My lone suggestion is Apotheosis, meaning "ascension to godhood"; it's what Sephiroth was trying to achieve by smashing a GIANT FRIGGIN ROCK into the planet.  Magus, on the other hand, is trying to ascend past his old nature of anger and mistrust in a world of both natural and supernatural forces arrayed against him.

My area of major "wall of creativity" is Robo.  Most of his character growth was depicted in CT; perhaps he deserves extra dialogue in a few scenarios to reflect his thoughts.

teh Schala

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« Reply #261 on: July 19, 2005, 10:08:40 pm »
...Or maybe we should kill him too and make Atropos playable, LOL... =P

Hadriel

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« Reply #262 on: July 19, 2005, 10:21:14 pm »
He's got to survive at least long enough to be turned into the Prometheus circuit; Cross states that it was hidden since the old Mother Brain generation.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #263 on: July 20, 2005, 12:08:09 am »
Quote from: Hadriel
Someone got an obscure translation of One-Winged Angel they'd care to share?  My lone suggestion is Apotheosis, meaning "ascension to godhood"; it's what Sephiroth was trying to achieve by smashing a GIANT FRIGGIN ROCK into the planet.


Hmmm... One-Winged Angel would be, and pardon my inability to decline these things (so the endings to the words are badly butchered), Oiopteros-Angelos in Greek. A little too long and cumbersome sounding. Oh, by the way, according to Perseus - and also Liddel and Scott - Apotheosis is actually 'to deify'.

So what is the list of weapon ideas so far?

Hadriel

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« Reply #264 on: July 20, 2005, 12:22:24 am »
The only things set in stone are Crono's final two weapons, Arco Iris and Ara Dei.  For Lucca's weapons, it's a consensus that at least a couple of her weapons have to be down with the tech, but her last is made out of Rainbow Shell to allow a much more powerful blast without damaging the gun.  For Marle, you provided a whole long list of weapon names that, even minus one or two, ought to cover her completely.  Fay Arrow works for a bow name.  Glenn has only two definite weapons, the Masamune and the upgraded Masamune.  Robo has absolutely no definite weapons right now; if you'll recall from much, much earlier, I came up with an idea that allows him to use ranged weapons as his default instead of as Techs.  The ranged weapons would allow for a much greater variety in Robo's gameplay, but he does comparatively little in the storyline, so that might not ever get implemented.  Magus has a few weapons now: Thanatos, Erebos, Astaroth, and the others that I forgot about.  Schala has nothing on her right now, save a Dreamstone dagger that needs a shorter name.

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #265 on: July 20, 2005, 12:36:46 am »
Holy crap! I just had an awesome idea stemming from this, and thusly I shall hijack for just a brief moment, feel free to ignore me again.

The Murasame could be in Chrono world as a kind of anti-Masamune! Perhaps forged by Lavos as a counter-agent w/the beings Mura & Same in it! Awesome! I think I've got more fanfic material on my hands!

Also, am I the only one who thought it would be just plain asskickingly cool to give Magus two sickles like I've done in my current fanfic? Huh? HUH? Think about the sheer awesomeness of that one...Let it really sink in.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #266 on: July 20, 2005, 12:41:25 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Holy crap! I just had an awesome idea stemming from this, and thusly I shall hijack for just a brief moment, feel free to ignore me again.

The Murasame could be in Chrono world as a kind of anti-Masamune! Perhaps forged by Lavos as a counter-agent w/the beings Mura & Same in it! Awesome! I think I've got more fanfic material on my hands!

Also, am I the only one who thought it would be just plain asskickingly cool to give Magus two sickles like I've done in my current fanfic? Huh? HUH? Think about the sheer awesomeness of that one...Let it really sink in.


Or, maybe, scythe in one hand as a weapon, sickle in the other as a deflector, as I do in mine?

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« Reply #267 on: July 20, 2005, 12:50:05 am »
What? Really? Can you properly wield a scythe w/one hand? Seems too...uh...unwieldy...heh...

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #268 on: July 20, 2005, 12:57:58 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
What? Really? Can you properly wield a scythe w/one hand? Seems too...uh...unwieldy...heh...


Then Janus flung down his shield, and drew his sickle. And men fled from the twofold fear of his sickle and scythe, which he wielded one in each hand. A grim image of death incarnate, but perhaps even more terrifying for he was no myth to freeze the heart on dark nights, but a manifest terror that walked abroad in the daylight; a sorcerer prince of old the likes of which the world had long since forgotten, he came with all the might of the ancient world out of times past. And men ran from his onslaught rather than face him, crying that the King of Death had been set loose upon them, or that the power of Zeal was reborn. Few there were that would openly essay to match arms with him, and those that did were for the most part worthy magicians in their own right. But what power of latter days can compare to that which was Zeal the Magnificent?

Alright, I thought it sounded good, at the time.
If you can use a scythe and shield, then I should think a scythe and sickle should be no problem. He's monsterously strong, anyway.

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« Reply #269 on: July 20, 2005, 01:47:12 am »
I could see a scythe & shield though, but the shield would be one of those small ones that you could just, like, attach to your forearm or something...Think along the lines of Marcy's shield for instance. Because I always think of a scythe as a two-hander, like a spear or bo-staff only with a wicked, curved blade...But yeah, you can always say he's uber-strong...or that tried & true...IT'S MAGIC, THAT'S HOW!!!