The $%*! frustration thread

[tushantin]

Language is, furthermore, not a model that merely describes objective reality. It actually actively shapes the reality we see in fascinating ways, as this video about the Himba tribe will show

Hah, now you're speakin' my *ahem* Language! Except the video seems broken to me. Do you mean this?
I do thank you for the video, though. While I already knew this before, I didn't realize that my Dyslexia was actually a boon for me just as it's a curse -- I don't see colors the same way as people, but actually a complex visual navigation. Er, I'll talk about it if anybody's interested; now back to the topic.

As for gender in language, the last time I checked, linguists weren't quite sure what purpose it served, but it pops up often enough that they're pretty sure it has one, and that it has little or nothing to do with real-world gender categories (consider "das Madchen", "die Kartoffel"—the last time I checked, a young woman was female and a potato was not, but German reverses them).

That said, the whole gender thing in language totally wigs me out, too. I've been meaning to see if any studies have been done on the romance languages & gender perception but I haven't managed it yet...

The 'Gender's Game' (yes, I'm awesome) isn't so surprising where I come from, however we haven't put much thought into it either (although many linguists have, though I forget). As I mentioned the last time, while Platonic Duality has existed since forever the personifications of nature and complex / abstracts concepts have are quite a correlation with Language itself, and the ancient languages primarily focused on Duality in essence -- there was always a He or She, but never It -- and this focused the ancient perception on concepts that maybe, just maybe, objects have either masculine or feminine characteristics. This thought evolved and developed further for artistic impressions and progression of language itself. There was also the case of 'Default Gender' but, eh, I'll probably bore you with that sub-topic...

In any case, this duality didn't necessarily mean that an object was alive, or that it had a gender, but was used to mnemonically categorize objects and keep their attributes in mind. For instance, in one language a bridge would be a 'He' because it's strong, and hence focusing on creating stronger bridges, while in another language it could be a 'She' because it looks beautiful, thus leading the natives to focus on aesthetic craft first. But the gender is almost always assigned based on the attributes itself, and it helps in creating strong mnemonic links and creativity (there are other advantages and disadvantages too, but that's a long story). Of course, just because an object (or even people) is assigned by a gender doesn't mean they don't have attributes of the other gender -- in this case, an object could be Masculine, but it also doesn't mean that it can't have Feminine attributes. Observe cats. Cats are awesome!

Besides all that, the story behind genders in languages is pretty cool (and complex), but rather than derail the thread, let's just read em up.

TruthOrDeal, the problem with our written language is that we have a lot of unofficial letters. "Ch," "ph," "th," "th" (no, that isn't a repeat), "sh," "kn" and others all used to be a single letter that clearly designated its own unique sound. We got rid of those letters, replaced them with two others, and then moved on to anglimangling the words from other languages. Umlauts and accented letters are strange to me (why not just make a totally new letter instead of modifying a different letter?), but definitely simpler than English's a-doings.

XD You have no idea how many important phonetic letters / consonants English is missing. While letter combinations may help alleviate that problem, it isn't efficient enough unless you have prior knowledge of other languages.

[xcalibur]

all languages have their various, and sometimes arbitrary, forms and constructs. I'd say that english is a great language, but I've often heard that it's comparable to French in difficulty to learn. part of the problem is that English has borrowed from so many sources, which leads to exceptions and irregularities. it's a mongrel tongue.

scholars have created artificial languages like Esperanto in order to get past these difficulties. the grammar and vocabulary are completely logical, with no exceptions or irregular verbs. the goal was to create an easy-to-learn language to act as an international medium. it does have support, but it'll always be challenging to establish a language that didn't spring up naturally.

I was in a conversation about this once... I suggested that Latin could be an international language if you updated the vocabulary, since it's the root of romance languages and it's logical. but they told me that it's very difficult to learn.

[Sajainta]

I wish the US taught more than four or six years of a secondary language.  It's a damn shame that the vast majority of the world is bilingual or trilingual (and more!) and Americans are for the most part very monolingual.  Back home, everyone was bilingual at the very least--they knew their mother tongue from whatever provinces they were from, then Tagalog, then sometimes English.  Even in Scotland students were taught French or German around age 8 or 10.  And then most people here only know English, and a small spattering of Spanish or French.  But the US is weird in that its native language is so important, and that its geography doesn't really require a second language.

But still.  I wish more Americans were passionate about exploring other languages.

[Katie Skyye]

I didn't want to learn Spanish because I don't like Spanish. If they'd taught Arabic or Japanese I'd have been all over that. Red could speak passable Chinese for a while but he's since fallen out of habit and lost it. And we plan to learn Japanese soon... especially since it's so hard! Need more time to practice with it before we get into a largely Japanese-dominated industry...!

[Sajainta]

Red could speak passable Chinese for a while but he's since fallen out of habit and lost it.

That's interesting.  Could he speak Mandarin or Cantonese, and where did he learn it?

[Thought]

... Latin ...logical.

Whoever told you that Latin is logical lied. While Medieval Latin is ridiculous, even Classical Latin was a tangle of exceptions, idioms, poor grammar, and nonsense.

[tushantin]

*scratches his head*

Cracked. Actively seeking out newer writers. A dozen people request the invite per minute. Over two thousand pages of posts in request thread. The process is cherry picked.

Worked on a finished article. I'd like it published. Don't think I'll even get the access...

[tushantin]

I always thought I was like Ifrit, of limitless fire, who burned the brightest when needed and dispelled gloom at the blink of an eye. Ever cheerful. Ever so zealous.

But it wasn't that I was infallible, I realize; I was like the wind. Always fleeting. From all that sadness. From all that frozen emptiness. And now the bats of sorrow have come for me while I was distracted.

...

Very well. Let's face it boldly. Let's embrace it, and cherish the feeling for what it is. Springtime of Fucking Youth.

[xcalibur]

... Latin ...logical.

Whoever told you that Latin is logical lied. While Medieval Latin is ridiculous, even Classical Latin was a tangle of exceptions, idioms, poor grammar, and nonsense.

I knew that medieval latin was messy, but I must've been misled about the classical form. I'd have to study it to form a proper opinion.

I wish the US taught more than four or six years of a secondary language.  It's a damn shame that the vast majority of the world is bilingual or trilingual (and more!) and Americans are for the most part very monolingual.  Back home, everyone was bilingual at the very least--they knew their mother tongue from whatever provinces they were from, then Tagalog, then sometimes English.  Even in Scotland students were taught French or German around age 8 or 10.  And then most people here only know English, and a small spattering of Spanish or French.  But the US is weird in that its native language is so important, and that its geography doesn't really require a second language.

But still.  I wish more Americans were passionate about exploring other languages.

part of the problem is that languages aren't taught sooner than high school, and then it's only french and spanish. you have to wait until college for other languages. I believe that has changed more recently for elementary schools, but the point stands. it's easier to pick up languages when you're younger.

[ZeaLitY]

Wow, I'm glad declension is just rainbows and sunshine for everyone. The need to learn a language is still a terrible one. There is a saying that foreigners should wait until they're elderly to begin studying Japanese, as that way they'll waste less of their lives studying Japanese. It's a gigantic fucking time-suck to learn a language from necessity. How unfortunate that the language I have the least love for is the dominant one in continental Europe. Quintili Vare, legiones redde! Germania delenda est.

[xcalibur]

I can't believe we slipped up in the last minute and let the Packers score that field goal. it should've went to overtime.

still a great football game, though. as long as the Giants beat the Cowboys they'll be fine.

[rushingwind]

As someone who's been trying to teach herself Spanish for years, both in college and on my own, it is not easy. It is, in fact, not even the easiest language I've ever tried to tackle. A few years ago, I tried to learn Arabic, which was FAR easier to understand and construct correct sentences out of (now the writing system, that was a NIGHTMARE. I could not train my brain to read in the correct direction). And I like Spanish, too! It just gets the best of me, sometimes. I can now hold passable conversations, but I have to ask everyone to slow down constantly (and I always hope no one starts speaking in subjuntive tenses, or I get really confused... but I'm working on it).

But anyway...

My frustration right now is that I had my college orientation yesterday for transfer students. Nearly a thousand students were there, so I spent the day waiting all excited to meet my fellow science geeks. I found out later on that I was the only person going into geology OR physics, and on top of that, there was only one chemistry major. There was one other environmental science major there, a guy going into meteorology. Several were there for engineering, but they were all men... I was the only female! Happily, a few women were there for biology, but I was sad to see no other females going into the hard sciences.

Presumably, there are people already enrolled and in the system who are going into these sciences, but it just made me sad to see so few transfer students going into the sciences (and the lack of women just made me feel kind of all alone there).

[ZeaLitY]

I can't believe we slipped up in the last minute and let the Packers score that field goal. it should've went to overtime.

still a great football game, though. as long as the Giants beat the Cowboys they'll be fine.

They must be stopped. There can be no more undefeated seasons. I still fear I'll wake up one day and the Patriots will have gone 19-0, and the Giants win was all just a self-induced comatose dream.

[xcalibur]

I can't believe we slipped up in the last minute and let the Packers score that field goal. it should've went to overtime.

still a great football game, though. as long as the Giants beat the Cowboys they'll be fine.

They must be stopped. There can be no more undefeated seasons. I still fear I'll wake up one day and the Patriots will have gone 19-0, and the Giants win was all just a self-induced comatose dream.

Indeed.

And that was one of the most glorious superbowls. I was there for the Giants parade in NYC, and the people were chanting 18 AND 1!

also, Packers defense is lacking, which assures me that they'll lose in the postseason.

[tushantin]

...but I was sad to see no other females going into the hard sciences.

On the other hand, you're probably the first to show em what you're capable of. A pioneer!  Not only does this give you an advantage to prove yourself but also become a great role-model for your peers, who'll eventually look up to you (either out of admiration or envy, but either way it's a win-win).

Good luck!