Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98955 times)

Uboa

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #525 on: September 05, 2009, 06:39:04 am »
Apologies for double-posting, but I feel this deserves a separate post.  Also, no takers on my devils advocacy ^there?  Heh, I was actually pretty serious when I wrote that, but I was wondering if anybody felt it was too jaded.

I mentioned in the frustration thread, which took on the guise of the this thread for a while, that I had something to add to the discussion of feminism.  But, ultimately I felt it belonged in this thread, since said "something" was very eye-opening to me in the same fashion that this thread has been.

I stayed in town for a couple of days this week at a very nice and very enlightened woman's ranch house.  I say enlightened because of the kind of work she does, helping at-risk teenage girls get through school in order to make a better living for themselves.  She was out of town, and she had offered a spare room to me if I needed to sleep after my classes so that I wouldn't kill myself driving back to where I live.  While I was staying over, I met another woman who had been hired to feed and care for her animals.  She had a remarkably steady air about her, something I picked up on immediately.  Every time she came by to take care of the animals we would talk, and I mentioned to her that I was looking for a cheap place to stay in town.  She told me that the apartment complex she lived in was the cheapest place in town, and suggested I look there for a space. 

So, I went to the office and met the man in charge of the place.  He seemed very eager to talk to me, and he mentioned that his wife had just died, and I figured that was why.  Well, after a long time talking about this, that, and the other thing, he made a very strange remark about my hair, and then about me in general, in essence saying that he had never really wanted to marry his wife and would have rather married somebody like me.  He had to have been at least, say, in his late 50's! and here he was telling this to me.  Then it dawned on me that the whole time we had been talking he had been hinting at that, but I hadn't picked up on it until that point.  After that I got out of there as quickly as possible, and the guy actually followed me out the door, asking me to come back and talk even as I was getting in my car.  I drove back to the ranch house where I met the animal caretaker later that evening, and I told her about what had happened to me.  "Oh yeah, he's very inappropriate," she told me, and I let her know that his remarks at the end of our conversation had been a deal-breaker for me, as far as my staying at his apartments.  She asked me, "Ah, so you can afford not to live with that?"  I was a little taken aback.  I had never thought of it that way before. 

Apparently the manager of the apartments behaved inappropriately toward her all the time, even asking her if she wanted to "have a little fun" on occasions when he came over to fix things.  I reacted as I figure any person would react, saying it was awful and the like.  She shrugged and said, "What can you do?" in her consistently steady tone.  She told me that she had put up with similar things her whole life, giving me an overview of some of the jobs she had worked:  Construction, mining, waitressing, and others all had her situated with men who sexually harassed her, to my astonishment, fairly regularly.  At one of her waitressing jobs a cook would constantly touch her and hug her on the job, and when she brought it up to the other staff they thought she was ridiculous for letting it bother her.  Heaven forbid she ask it to stop or anything.  Well, this cook she was having a problem with also happened to be a drinker and, somehow, knew where she lived.  One night he actually got drunk and broke down her door and almost forced himself on her.  When she complained about this, SHE was fired, because the restaurant would have an easier time finding a waitress than finding a cook.

(Another tidbit I learned from her about waitressing:  Apparently in Vegas most nice restaurants will only use male waitstaff for dinner services because waiters are considered to be more classy than waitresses.  I thought that was pretty weird.)

She had to have been in her late forties, almost fifty.  She didn't tell me her age.  I didn't ask, but I got a sense of it from the life stories whe told me.  She was born to parents who followed a really strict religion, and from what I gathered they were pretty emotionally abusive toward her.  When she ran away, they apparently let the state have her because they didn't even want to pay to bury her.  I guess she spent most of her teenage years in state facilities or on the street.  By the time she was 30 she had been married twice, and both husbands had died.  She really hadn't had any chance to get ahead by going to school, so she took low paying jobs oftentimes surrounded by men.  I guess that her experiences had led her to just not be bothered by that kind of behavior (and I'm guessing this is why she seemed so emotionally steady), but I was sitting there thinking, god, how the hell would I live with that nonsense?  And her question to me about being able to afford not to put up with sexual harassment really stuck with me, because at that moment it dawned on me that a lot of women are expected to put up with offensive crap on a daily basis just so that they can make ends meet.  Literally, expected by co-workers and supervisors who would rather not put up with a harassment claim, even if their door gets broken down.  If they make a noise about it, they're liable to get fired.

If I could see the feminist movement get behind anything, I'd like to see it expose more stories like this, to let people know that there is a very insidious and oppressive indifference toward low-income women in this country.  This is the kind of oppression that arises from thinking we've done all we should do as a society, which is a tempting notion to become attached to.  It would be comforting to think that, but rather than live with false comfort I wish we'd all be on the lookout for the sake of those who need looking out for.

I hope the woman I mentioned would not be offended that I recounted her story in this light.  I'm pretty sure she'd appreciate what we talk about here.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #526 on: September 05, 2009, 06:52:49 am »
Yeah. These stories are even more common in third world countries with arranged marriages and even more abusive cultural conventions about female life.

Anecdotes like these can illuminate more than the statistics of the pay gap, gender development index, or other metrics and research do. It's like that list of male privilege, or Lord J's haunting comments about having to perpetually exist under special, twisted scrutiny not tied to merit in this world. To empathize with this woman, who tolerates sexually-motivated abuse and discrimination daily, is to suffer and understand the terror and epidemic of sexism.

It is horrifying to think that this goes on every single day, along with a slew of other atrocities. It is absolutely, profoundly horrifying, in the most tremendous sense that word can afford. Some people wonder why I'm so passionate about these things. Hah. Anyone who knows the real extent of sexism and female oppression in this world and isn't horrified is heartless.

Thanks for sharing. Although anecdotes like that make me a little fatigued because of the depth of negative emotion and anger it conjures, it still provides extra motivation and reminder of the urgency of efforts for social justice and women's rights.



Fight the power. Fight the power. Fight the power.

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #527 on: September 06, 2009, 08:48:12 pm »

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #528 on: September 08, 2009, 02:58:01 am »
Sorry to hear about that, Uboa. I always have to deal with people hitting on me when I'm not interested in it all the time. Like, just this weekend, I met this homeless bum who was really into me while I was walking back from 7-11 at 2 in the morning. He looked harmless, so I entertained him, but my dad always tells me the same thing before I go out "DON'T TALK TO HOBOS!!" He always tells me,  yet I always do it anyway. I think I might get myself into a dangerous situation one of these days. Well this guy really was harmless the most he did was get annoyed that I didn't give him my phone number. He said that guys would be afraid to pick on me anyway because "I'm so intimidating". I found that kind of silly because I actually come off as really friendly almost all the time, but he said that didn't matter. Because of how big I am, I "intimidate men" and so they wouldn't want to pick on me. Yeah, well no one's really picked on me, I guess they've just picked me up. The entire weekend I also had to deal with this friend of a friend who hung around me for a lot of my time in Seattle and who had this huge crush on me. At some point he asked if I had a boyfriend and I said yes. He seemed a little discouraged, but that didn't last for long as then he proceeded to hit on me some more.

Then last night, I found out that he was invited to our hotel room where he proceeded to make it his goal to see me naked by the end of the night. I had to leave by 4:30 in the morning, so we decided to just stay up all night and play cards. We played some things for a while, but then at some point, all they wanted to do was to play strip poker. Yeah, I'd rather not talk about that anymore >_>. I guess he got what he wanted. At least my boyfriend's not pissed. I'm not sure if that has to do with feminism and sexism so much that it has to do with women being afraid to speak out. People who know me well know how independent I am and I'm not really liable to crack under peer pressure. I guess that when it has to do with unwanted guys hitting on me, they don't really end up touching me anyway, and I don't get compliments often... I guess it's because I'm SO INTIMIDATING that they're scared to do anything other than pay me a bunch of compliments and hope that I will fuck them later. Yeah, doesn't really work that way with me, but I don't really put up a front against the pick up lines because it's really clear to me what the guy wants. And this guy was so into me, and I thought it was clear that he had no chance with me, but I don't think he really cared anyway because all he wanted to do was to see me naked.

 I wonder what happens when it's someone like that lady, who gets discriminated for not putting up a front and it actually affects her safety? I've never had that happen to me before, but I don't think situations like that are so uncommon. None of my friends really experienced that, though 2 of my friends have been sexually molested or raped before.

I know this is going to sound uh... discriminatory, but I do know that the more educated the woman is, the less likely she is to experience discrimination. So while the glass ceiling exists and she may get less money than her male colleagues(though this is not true for many, many companies) ,  she will face much less situations like sexual harassment compared with a woman who works in a more blue-collar environment. This is why I really hope my education will soon be worth it so I dont' have to put up with that shit. I never have before, even in my blue collar jobs (my most important goal in the next couple months is to find work, most likely it will be blue collar) put up with any kind of sexual harassment. I hope I will never have to because I know I would not put up with that shit and yes, similar to that story, I'm sure I'd be fired for complaining rather than have the situation dealt with.

OH, wait. There is one experience where I was sexually harassed at work. It was my first job. I just recalled it and I'll share that story and how it was dealt with. So when I was 17 and 18 respectively, I worked for 2 summers at the county fair doing janitorial work. My first summer, I was driven here and there by this old Mexican guy who really tried to pick me up. Actually, there were two Mexican guys who hit on me. Both were in their mid to late 40s, I'd guess. One of them ended up asking for my phone number and I gave him a fake one. Well when I was 18, there was this huge bitch that ended up getting fired and I took over her work. She accused one of the men of doing something to her (most likely a lie) and I was brought into the mess because it was discovered that he sexually harassed me as well. So what happened is that I had to talk to some kind of representative from HR about what happened and what kind of harassment I experienced. I told them my story (including to emphasize that the girl was probably lying about the severity about the incident) and essentially just said that the guy didn't understand American cultural norms, because in Mexico, this kind of behavior was more accepted. He didn't really bother me much, he was just a little annoying(100 percent of my sexual harassers). So this anecdote is important because it shows that even in blue collar jobs, some people DO take sexual harassment very seriously. This guy had been working for the fair for many years, and I'm thinking he got fired for whatever he said to that girl. So it isn't always that nothing is done. Progress is important.

IAmSerge

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #529 on: September 08, 2009, 03:01:23 am »
I dont really like the "Hit on girls to pick em up" tactic.  I prefer become their best friend first, then slowly wade into deeper waters.

Uboa

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #530 on: September 08, 2009, 04:08:12 am »
I dont really like the "Hit on girls to pick em up" tactic.  I prefer become their best friend first, then slowly wade into deeper waters.

...Did you learn this from XKCD?

ZaichikArky, I guess I had never thought about what an ideal, or at least a more ideal, society would be like with regards to gender equality before I had talked to -- I'm getting tired of saying "that woman", so I'll give her a pseudonym -- S.  Up until that point I had never felt "in the shoes" of a person like her, but when I did I realized that it was not a good feeling. 

All I've ever really wanted in life is to be able to live for myself, and strike whatever balances and pursue whatever goals I see fit.  That's it.  I don't like the idea of "living for" other people, or living for other people's prerogatives, and I never have.  I barely get by dealing with people much of the time.  Anyway, during my conversation with S it dawned on me that, had I lived in her shoes, I would never have been able to strike a balance in life that was really my own.  That is, I would have always had this unwelcome and unjust force (to illustrate in terms of physics) in my life, which I would necessarily have to counter with my own vector, which would in turn render me perpetually off-kilter.  I wouldn't be able to feel the balance or peace I deserve, and all because society at large doesn't see fit to look out for people like me (again from S's point of view), a woman who puts in a full working week, and essentially plays by all of the rules. 

It is far less likely that a man would end up in S's position, that is constantly having to ward off and evaluate advances by his colleagues.  It is more likely that any given man would be able to play by society's rules and be rewarded with the kind of peace of mind that a woman like S might never truly feel.  As a woman who simply wants to make it on her own, this prospect is daunting.  Luckily I've already accepted and acted on the notion that I probably have to play by different rules than men to afford that peace of mind, and from what you say it seems you have as well.  But is the fact that we have to play by different rules in the first place really fair to us?  Is it a fair expectation to have, that if we fall on hard times we may also have to welcome unjust and unwanted attention into our lives?

In an ideal, or even just a slightly -more- ideal society, this expectation would not exist.  If people would just look out for one another, if they would extend the courtesy of a fair workplace to low-income women, we could rest assured that we would be that much closer to being able to live as much for ourselves as we choose.  That's what it means to be free, right?

It's good to know that your situation at the fair was handled well.  Maybe in businesses large enough to have a dedicated HR department it's less likely that sexual harassment goes unanswered.  Note to self, in case.

Truth, thanks for linking that article.  I was unaware of the concept of forced marriages, but it seems that along with female circumcision this is something that has long sailed under the radar of European governments.  I'm glad that they're now assuming an attitude that protects their citizens from these injustices rather than writing them off as cultural differences.

ZombieBucky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #531 on: September 08, 2009, 04:20:06 am »
zaichikarky said that the more educated a woman is the less likely she is to be discriminated against. i want to think on that a bit...

higher education is usually harvard, yale, private schools, and other fancy things. those cost money. lots of money. money that youd find in upper classes. my impression of the richer class is that the guys do business and the ladies... look pretty. they rarely partake in business stuff and they get to organize the ridiculously lavish parties.
on the other hand, one could say that a woman experiences the same amount of discrimination (is that even the right word?) no matter her class. perhaps only the intelligent know of it.

IAmSerge

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #532 on: September 08, 2009, 04:39:47 am »
I dont really like the "Hit on girls to pick em up" tactic.  I prefer become their best friend first, then slowly wade into deeper waters.

...Did you learn this from XKCD?

No, is it a bad strategy? V.V  Its more appropriate than a 1 night stand atleast.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #533 on: September 08, 2009, 04:46:32 am »


No, is it a bad strategy? V.V  Its more appropriate than a 1 night stand atleast.

No, it's not a bad strategy. Just don't expect to get laid any time soon at all. If you don't mind that, then expect to wait a long time before you get laid (in general). It worked out that way for me and my  boyfriend. We'd been best friends for a year and then something ended up working out between us and still all the time he says to me "I don't know how I fooled you into thinking I was worthy" >_>. But I lost my virginity at 18 anyway, so it was ok.

I'm not really one to give dating advice myself, but a lot of girls prefer to be friends at first and then to have sex way later. The only problem with that is the "friends zone". My best online friend has that REALLY bad. He's a really, really great guy and is friends with a lot of girls, but he has never had them really consider him to be something more than that.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 05:15:56 am by ZaichikArky »

Uboa

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #534 on: September 08, 2009, 04:53:09 am »
I dont really like the "Hit on girls to pick em up" tactic.  I prefer become their best friend first, then slowly wade into deeper waters.

...Did you learn this from XKCD?

No, is it a bad strategy? V.V  Its more appropriate than a 1 night stand atleast.
Relationship apropos aside, http://xkcd.com/513/

KebreI

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #535 on: September 08, 2009, 01:28:46 pm »
I'm not really one to give dating advice myself, but a lot of girls prefer to be friends at first and then to have sex way later. The only problem with that is the "friends zone". My best online friend has that REALLY bad. He's a really, really great guy and is friends with a lot of girls, but he has never had them really consider him to be something more than that.
I'm the poster child right here! That's why I prefer this route.

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #536 on: September 08, 2009, 01:39:01 pm »
Same here, weirdly enough. I don't much care for the "pick-up" game to begin with. I'm probably the one who gets picked up over the picker-uper.

I suppose that's my way of empowering women and doing away with gender roles. Hah. 

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #537 on: September 08, 2009, 03:01:26 pm »
Same here, weirdly enough. I don't much care for the "pick-up" game to begin with. I'm probably the one who gets picked up over the picker-uper.

I suppose that's my way of empowering women and doing away with gender roles. Hah. 

Lol, I do the picking up when I'm interested in a guy XD;. I mean my boyfriend, when he was 18, he really liked me and saw me struggle one year through this relationship that was really unhealthy but he never made any move to tell me his feelings. I ended up telling him later that I liked him and I wasn't sure if he liked me but then he said he liked me all along XD;. I guess then he felt more secure with expressing his feelings for me. Insecurity in a guy is a turn on for me because I'm not an insecure person in many, many ways and I like for the guy to have humility and not be pushing himself on me. A friend of mine is much worse in that respect. She's into the whole dom-sub thing, I guess, and she likes to be the dominant one and boss the guy around a lot and do sadist things to him.

A lot more girls are like that these days. I know that when a couple is married and especially if they've been married for many years, these days the woman is the boss in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to micro-managing, and the guy just goes along with it because he doesn't want to cross his wife for she can be scary. My parents are like that. Mom's the boss and she has uh, anger problems sometimes so I think dad's scared of crossing her or not doing what she says. But, she's improved a lot and it's not like she doesn't allow dad to do most things he wants. She's the epitome of a micro manager though. I know a LOT of wives like this. She likes to have everything super organized and is very, very pissy if there is any tardiness and other random things. The other thing she likes to micro manage the way he dresses(if he's out in public with her), and he doesn't really care for that but has learned not to put up a fuss. I find that so funny, because I think she hates how I dress even more but only puts up a front if I wear really ratty shoes. That's my worst dressing habit. I don't like to throw my shoes away. I remember one time my band director got pissed off at me for wearing really ratty shoes to a performance and he made me take them off and go on stage with socks only!

Uh anyway, I think the stereotype these days is that the woman is the boss in the marriage anyway. If it's not a hetero marriage, the same kind of patterns tend to form. Most married people I know are like this. As for relationships in general, I notice that it doesn't work out if both couples think they are dominant. I sometimes feel really guilty about that because I know that I am the dominant one and I boss my bf around and get pissy about really stupid things. I feel like I'm acting like such a girl when I do that, and I hate it because most of my life I've always thought I was the opposite to the stereotypical female in terms of her behavior and her interests. My interests are what get me the guys hitting on me anyway. I like video games a lot... So I always need to be in a relationship where I boss someone around and they don't put up a huge front about it. I hope it doesn't seem like I seem like a huge control-freak. I generally don't even care what the guy does as long as he does what I say about things I find *SUPER IMPORTANT* like... buying me cake! Or... giving me a hug when I say to! Unfortunately, the guy and I don't always agree about the things I find super important, but that's not all that common anyway . One example is his hideous hair which I am always pissed off that he won't do anything about. He's 25 and balding pretty badly and the hair that he has left is all the way down his back. A long time ago, when he wasn't balding he said that as soon as he started balding, he'd cut his hair and have it not be long anymore. But he didn't fulfill his promise and I'm always pissed off about that because I never really liked his hair to begin with XD;. Anything that has to do with appearance, he doesn't listen to me about! So I can't micromanage that even if I wanted to!  A friend of mine said that if his girl told him to change his hair or to lose weight, he'd definitely do it. hehe...

Man I think I've turned this thread from the sexism thread to the relationship and dating advice thread. But I did talk about gender roles in it!! I tried to be productive.

IAmSerge

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #538 on: September 08, 2009, 04:25:28 pm »
No, it's not a bad strategy. Just don't expect to get laid any time soon at all. If you don't mind that, then expect to wait a long time before you get laid (in general). It worked out that way for me and my  boyfriend. We'd been best friends for a year and then something ended up working out between us and still all the time he says to me "I don't know how I fooled you into thinking I was worthy" >_>. But I lost my virginity at 18 anyway, so it was ok.

No sex? lol.  Like I even cared in the first place.  I like relationships for the relationship, not the sex.  I know its the stereotypical guy thing to be into sex... but insult me if you will I'm being abstinent.

Relationship apropos aside, http://xkcd.com/513/

Yes, yes I am afraid of being rejected.  And thats a fear that sucks ass.

Also, IE 8 HATES these text boxes.   Fuckin IE 8.  I don't even remember telling it to install that.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #539 on: September 08, 2009, 05:00:01 pm »
Quote
I like relationships for the relationship, not the sex.
Helllll yeah! A dinner and a conversation with an attractive person of the opposite sex (or preferred sex for that matter) is a dinner and a conversation with an attractive person of the opposite/preferred sex, and it's completely worthwhile the way it is. The supposedly scary "friend zone" fosters human development just as all friendships do, and it's great just being able to spend time chatting with people of all genders without further expectations or goals attached.

It's also for this reason that men who act possessive of their wives/girlfriends/domestic partners are ridiculous. You can't just cut off a person's interaction with half of the entire human population; it shows a lack of trust firstly, and more importantly I'd argue, dampens the partner's intellectual and human development.


Serge, you should see a "compatibility view" button right next to the page refresh button on IE8. The posting system works normally for me when I use that. Just be sure to copy what you've posted so far into the buffah before clicking on it, because the option will erase anything you've typed already.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 05:01:42 pm by FaustWolf »