Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 484500 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4935 on: February 04, 2010, 08:45:55 pm »
Yes, but it has also been a great display of how easy identity theft has become, be it the identity of a person or a fictional character that's being taken advantage of, as well as the problems that come along with someone claiming to be who they are not. Sure, Schala has no credit card or social security number, but she has an identity that is exclusive to the Chrono universe, and that is being taken advantage of to a disturbing degree.

The key element in there is that Schala "has no credit card or social security number." There is no actual person whose identity is being stolen. That's a key distinction, because the practical argument against PSZ hinges on the existence of some tangible harm being done. Otherwise, it's purely a philosophical issue on the subject of identity.

Still the same, I agree with Zephira, in that the entire forum is not a roleplay thread. That's why we have a roleplay thread. That's my main problem. Nobody should be forced to accept that anyone who makes odd or impossible claims is telling the truth.

Mr. Bekkler, we are all here "roleplayers" to some degree. Nobody here presents themselves exactly as they are elsewhere, because to do so would be impossible, because identity depends in part upon the context of our surroundings here in the moment. Here we "put on a different face," as it were, even if subtly, than we would on another message board, or when having dinner with our parents, or when addressing Congress, or when visiting with friends at the cafe...sometimes even relative to other visits to this very website. Identity is fluid.

Your argument is one of degrees. By "odd or impossible claims," what you're really saying is that some degrees of roleplaying are unacceptable to you. I guess the real question then is what the administration's policy is. Ultimately ZeaLitY will decide what is acceptable or not, and you can push this in that direction if you want. But why is it so important for you to do so? What do you have to gain? I put up with the likes of some pretty undesirable folks around the Compendium. Others who feel the same way about me put up with me. None of us has a right to expect zero conflicts whatsoever when we participate in any community.

I don't think PSZ is "roleplaying" in the sense you mean, hence the quotation marks. Roleplaying is akin to acting. I don't think PSZ is trying to play a role. I think, for whatever reason, this person, whoever that may be, wants to be Schala. There's no victim in that, and the frustration here on the Compendium seems to be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Identity is malleable, Mr. Bekkler. So why should its malleability be rejected on the grounds you have laid out? What is the wrong here? What is the dishonesty here? What are the motives at play?

I humbly suggest, once more, that you will better solve this problem to your satisfaction by changing yourself than by changing PSZ or appealing to the Compendium's rulemaker. This is a philosophical advice I offer. Remove within yourself the willingness to be frustrated by this particular behavior...and the problem will solve itself with no cost to anybody.


Zephira

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4936 on: February 04, 2010, 08:54:44 pm »
He has admitted to his behaviour being an extreme form of roleplay, which he calls soulplay. The frustration comes into play when his acting the character interferes with the normal function of other threads (which is against the rules of conduct), and from the sexist attitude (my favourite being the "ignore her, she's on her period" and "American Nazi zealot" lines). It might be easier to ignore every thing he posts, like others have to do for the religion/debate threads, but that is exactly what the roleplay forum was made for.

FaustWolf

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4937 on: February 04, 2010, 09:16:44 pm »
Quote from: Lord J
Mr. Bekkler, we are all here "roleplayers" to some degree.
Nuh-uh, J: I really am 75+ years old as my avatars suggest, and we've seen Mr. Bekkler in actual clown makeup in real-life photos if I recall correctly...might have been zombie makeup though.

Joking aside, I have to agree with J with respect to PSZ's most interesting identity choice; there are things higher up on the totem pole that need to be addressed in the world. I think the more important issue here is the comments Zephira refers to in the above post. While free speech is valued here, off-the-cuff remarks like that diminish an otherwise safe conversational environment.

...religion debates, on the other hand, well...maybe there's just no hope of salvation for those. :D
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 09:29:21 pm by FaustWolf »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4938 on: February 04, 2010, 10:03:54 pm »
Yes, but it has also been a great display of how easy identity theft has become, be it the identity of a person or a fictional character that's being taken advantage of, as well as the problems that come along with someone claiming to be who they are not. Sure, Schala has no credit card or social security number, but she has an identity that is exclusive to the Chrono universe, and that is being taken advantage of to a disturbing degree.

The key element in there is that Schala "has no credit card or social security number." There is no actual person whose identity is being stolen. That's a key distinction, because the practical argument against PSZ hinges on the existence of some tangible harm being done. Otherwise, it's purely a philosophical issue on the subject of identity.

Still the same, I agree with Zephira, in that the entire forum is not a roleplay thread. That's why we have a roleplay thread. That's my main problem. Nobody should be forced to accept that anyone who makes odd or impossible claims is telling the truth.

Mr. Bekkler, we are all here "roleplayers" to some degree. Nobody here presents themselves exactly as they are elsewhere, because to do so would be impossible, because identity depends in part upon the context of our surroundings here in the moment. Here we "put on a different face," as it were, even if subtly, than we would on another message board, or when having dinner with our parents, or when addressing Congress, or when visiting with friends at the cafe...sometimes even relative to other visits to this very website. Identity is fluid.

Your argument is one of degrees. By "odd or impossible claims," what you're really saying is that some degrees of roleplaying are unacceptable to you. I guess the real question then is what the administration's policy is. Ultimately ZeaLitY will decide what is acceptable or not, and you can push this in that direction if you want. But why is it so important for you to do so? What do you have to gain? I put up with the likes of some pretty undesirable folks around the Compendium. Others who feel the same way about me put up with me. None of us has a right to expect zero conflicts whatsoever when we participate in any community.

I don't think PSZ is "roleplaying" in the sense you mean, hence the quotation marks. Roleplaying is akin to acting. I don't think PSZ is trying to play a role. I think, for whatever reason, this person, whoever that may be, wants to be Schala. There's no victim in that, and the frustration here on the Compendium seems to be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Identity is malleable, Mr. Bekkler. So why should its malleability be rejected on the grounds you have laid out? What is the wrong here? What is the dishonesty here? What are the motives at play?

I humbly suggest, once more, that you will better solve this problem to your satisfaction by changing yourself than by changing PSZ or appealing to the Compendium's rulemaker. This is a philosophical advice I offer. Remove within yourself the willingness to be frustrated by this particular behavior...and the problem will solve itself with no cost to anybody.



I don't understand why you're singling me out in this. I'm not the only one who is confused about PSZ's behavior, nor am I stating that he's breaking any rules or harming me in any way. I did say that it annoys me, personally, and that I don't think it should take place in the normal forum threads.

Honestly, PSZ as a person, with all Schala references removed, is fairly intelligent and easily tolerable. He knows his shit when it comes to programming and has a lot of Chrono related knowledge.

It's not the person I dislike. It's the behavior. How is PSZ any different than Laith or Shadow D Darkman, both of whom were banned not because of their personalities, but because of their behavior on the same forums?

And when it comes to the identity issue, I've tried to represent myself as true to my IRL identity as possible, while keeping the uber nerd that still loves Chrono semi separate from regular life. I post sometimes about things I do outside of the forum, and I hold that I'm not trying to mislead anyone into thinking I'm someone or something that I'm not.

What PSZ is exhibiting seems to be sociopath behavior, or antisocial personality disorder. People who have these problems usually don't even know about them, without someone at least mentioning it. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, especially PSZ, because my intent is not to offend or hurt at all. I do think he needs help, though, and the first step is understanding there may be a real problem.

GenesisOne

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4939 on: February 04, 2010, 10:34:39 pm »

Hmm...

My experience with PSZ in the Compendium has shown itself to be... well, unique in its own way.

One experience in particular was when I was asking neo-fusion about putting voice acting into his CT:A.  He was more than comfortable with me volunteering my talents, but PSZ wanted to volunteer his voice talent by playing the part of... well, it's only obvious, now isn't it?

PSZ even discussed in the CT:A thread that he was hoping to get collagen injections (or whatever one calls it) for his vocal cords and to take estrogen-supplying drugs to "bring out his feminine side"... and all just to fill a voice acting role that he clearly wasn't ideal for.

Despite the outcome of the venture (neo's not doing voice acting after all), this demonstrates, in PSZ's own words, what lengths he wanted to go to in order to epitomize the character he has emulated for so long in the Compendium.  Those were the words from his mouth telling other readers what he was going to accomplish.  Whether he did so or not is entirely unknown to me, but...

This shows that role-playing CAN be taken to the extreme, to the point where it consumes your character and your identity.  I'm not saying that PSZ should go away altogether and live out his fantasy elsewhere.  I just want to talk to him as his real self.  I mean, I have no problem showing my real self (i.e. through my words), so why shouldn't he?  There's no shame in saying that he's reached a certain degree of obsession of a fictional character.

People have done physical and mental harm to themselves by playing out their fantasies to the extreme.  Want proof?  Google real-life superheroes.  These people actually convince themselves that they can fight crime, so they don costumes and gadgets (at least they have enough horse sense to wear bullet-proof vests), and go out of their way to pick fights with criminals who would beat them up and perhaps even kill them.  It's like method acting, only it's applied to the real world.

This isn't a potshot at PSZ for his behavior.  I'm not frustrated at all.  The word is "concerned".  I hope that you're not implying that it's somehow wrong to show concern for someone's behavior.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4940 on: February 04, 2010, 10:44:44 pm »

This isn't a potshot at PSZ for his behavior.  

 The word is "concerned".  I hope that you're not implying that it's somehow wrong to show concern for someone's behavior.


Exactly.

FaustWolf

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4941 on: February 05, 2010, 12:11:56 am »
Speaking of keeping the conversational environment "safe," I think it's important to consider that PSZ may be in a state of trans-genderism for reasons other than wanting to be a videogame character specifically. I mean, every day there are probably a few men and women who make the decision to cross over; there is nothing wrong with this. In a way, trans-genderism is second only to immortality in terms of control over one's own body. For that reason alone I respect it immensely; certainly not something I have a desire to do, but to each his/her own.

What I'm trying to say is that the issue of wanting to be Schala and the issue of wanting to alter one's physical shape should be treated separately. A transgendered person shouldn't be treated with any more "concern" than a straight, gay, male, or female person. I think everyone was talking about the "becoming Schala" aspect specifically, but I wanted to make the distinction just so it's out there.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:14:08 am by FaustWolf »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4942 on: February 05, 2010, 12:30:13 am »
Speaking of keeping the conversational environment "safe," I think it's important to consider that PSZ may be in a state of trans-genderism for reasons other than wanting to be a videogame character specifically. I mean, every day there are probably a few men and women who make the decision to cross over; there is nothing wrong with this. In a way, trans-genderism is second only to immortality in terms of control over one's own body. For that reason alone I respect it immensely; certainly not something I have a desire to do, but to each his/her own.

What I'm trying to say is that the issue of wanting to be Schala and the issue of wanting to alter one's physical shape should be treated separately. A transgendered person shouldn't be treated with any more "concern" than a straight, gay, male, or female person. I think everyone was talking about the "becoming Schala" aspect specifically, but I wanted to make the distinction just so it's out there.

I'm glad you made the distinction. I actually have friends that are transgendered. It's not a new subject for me, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. The fact is, changing one's gender is a permanent decision. You can't just go back after it's started, and the decision is not to be taken lightly.

Sajainta

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4943 on: February 05, 2010, 12:46:22 am »
The fact is, changing one's gender is a permanent decision. You can't just go back after it's started, and the decision is not to be taken lightly.

It is a decision, yes, and a very expensive one at that but for someone who is transgendered it is not a choice.

I have a sibling who is transgendered (born physically female), and although I cannot understand from a personal view (because I am not transgendered), I try to understand as best I can.  It hurts me that he goes through such inner turmoil and suffering, because he really does feel as though he was born into the wrong body.  I wish I had more money so that I could help pay for the various operations he would like to have and feels he needs to have.  I agree that he needs to have them too.  So he can feel normal and at peace with himself and truly become what he actually is--a male.

Apologies if I misinterpreted what you said, Bekkler.

~~~~~

In the spirit of this thread, it infuriates me that there is so much ignorance surrounding those who are transgendered.  "What, so...you're gay?"  Um, NO, my brother is NOT gay.  He has a girlfriend, but that does NOT make him gay.  "You should be happy with the body you're born in.  Why can't you just accept it?  Get over it!"  Ignorance, ignorance, ignorance.

Actually...this is something that belongs in the hate thread.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:50:22 am by Sajainta »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4944 on: February 05, 2010, 02:17:23 am »
One of the friends I mentioned regrets starting treatment and has stopped taking hormones. I was talking about the medical procedures when I said decision. Sorry I wasn't clear.

KebreI

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4945 on: February 05, 2010, 05:04:56 am »
Weird, I act myself when I am online. Hell, J and Zephy both even said that when they met me. I guess I am just cool like that.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4946 on: February 05, 2010, 10:48:56 am »
Want proof?  Google real-life superheroes.  These people actually convince themselves that they can fight crime, so they don costumes and gadgets (at least they have enough horse sense to wear bullet-proof vests), and go out of their way to pick fights with criminals who would beat them up and perhaps even kill them.  It's like method acting, only it's applied to the real world.

To note, not all "real-life superheroes" do this. There are many who dress up to fight other social ills rather than crime. Some put on a costume and go help the homeless, or clean up a park. And even those that do "fight crime," is that truly an undesirable behavior for citizens to have? There is off and on talk of "good Samaritan" laws that are supposed to require by law that passersby stop and help individuals in need, the name of course coming from the account in the Gospel of Luke. But the account in Luke ends not with a simple morale but a command, "go and do likewise." If it is good for an individual to offer aid and resist evil when they happen to be in its presence, why not actively attempt to create a better world?

Is this dangerous for the individual? Truly. However, I find the sentiment behind the behavior to be quite laudable.

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4947 on: February 05, 2010, 12:38:02 pm »
Quote from:  Sir Thought, Elder of San Dorino
Is this dangerous for the individual? Truly. However, I find the sentiment behind the behavior to be quite laudable.

Anyone remember that one story I posted in the Humanity thread a few months ago regarding the bank teller that was fired for running out and apprehending a would-be robber? The law and order side of me felt that the man deserved a reward, or, at the very least, a public commendation for having the guts to chase down someone like that. A few more sensible Compendiumites pointed out that the teller put several people into danger by acting in such a rash manner, and deserved at least a warning from his boss.

That's pretty much the situation we find ourselves in with these "real-life superheroes." While they certainly have enough cajones(even the females) and good will to try to bring down criminals, at the same time, they're putting the general population at risk whenever they pick a fight with these guys. Of course, me being the law and order type, I say that if they're chasing down the man in the black ski-mask that stole an old lady's purse, then more power to them. But there's another, much more sinister side to this: vigilantism, and that is nothing to support or be proud of.

Plus, wherever there are "real-life superheroes," there must be some real-life super villains, and I can only imagine what they would concoct. Could you imagine a real-life Dr. Doom or Lex Luthor? Someone needs to keep an eye on Howie Mandell.

Thought

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4948 on: February 05, 2010, 01:37:09 pm »
That's pretty much the situation we find ourselves in with these "real-life superheroes." While they certainly have enough cajones(even the females) and good will to try to bring down criminals, at the same time, they're putting the general population at risk whenever they pick a fight with these guys.

To be fair, when the police attempt to take down a criminal, they are also putting the general population at risk. The difference comes in terms of training; ideally, the police have been trained to minimize the risks involved.

However, there seems to be a difference in situations; the bank robbery occurred around a number of other people, the entity being harmed could easily endure the harm being done to it, and the police would have been involved regardless of the teller's actions. But imagine a different setting; it is night and there is a woman being pulled down an alleyway. Almost no one is around to notice, and almost no one has even an inkling of doing something. That "almost on-one" being a "superhero" out on patrol. Certainly, by interfering the individual would be putting the woman's life in danger, but it is unlikely there would be many others caught in the crossfire. The victim may or may not survive the harm that is plotted against her, and police involvement is not a sure thing. Now, the superhero could call the police, but the likelihood of a timely response is rather low (at least, until there are gunshots).

In the case of the teller, the potential for harm from interfering was high when compared to the harm being done. In this case of the superhero, the potential for harm from interfering was comparatively low to the harm that might have been perpetrated.

Of course, I couldn't tell you how often these superheroes do good and how often they cause harm. To my knowledge there aren't many studies done on the matter.

But there's another, much more sinister side to this: vigilantism, and that is nothing to support or be proud of.

Maybe. Vigilantism is often given an overtone of revenge, in the public eye. A movie might have a child kidnapped and then the parents taking the law into their own hands, hunting down the kidnappers and killing them. That is vigilantism, and I can understand how one might not support that. However, let us say that you are at Disneyland and all of a sudden a little girl starts screaming that the man dragging her along is not her father. Surely, you should do more than merely stand there and maybe call the police. By stopping the man you would be taking on the role of a law enforcer, thus stepping into the realm of the vigilante. And yet, I would argue that if you did not do so you would actually be breaking the social contract. A society cares for its members, and while we have ordained specific individuals to take on that duty for society, that does not free us as members of society from still being aware of those duties and fulfilling them when there is need.

Vigilantism is problematic when it is taken to an extreme, when the public and the law suffer because of it. However, society and the law suffers when the citizenry ignore their duties to society, they suffer when the citizenry ignores need merely because that isn't their responsibility. Yes, society has established representatives, it has established workhouses and prisons. But to say that these free the common individual from actively caring for their fellow humans is intolerable; it is akin to saying that if people cannot go to these established social institutions, these workhouses and prisons, for help, or if they would rather not go, then that they should die and decrease the surplus population.

To cross the line from being vigilant and caring to being a vigilante might be a dangerous thing to do, but to approach that line, to be as caring and vigilant as possible, is good. To be great one must risk great consequences. Sire, those consequences can be bad, but right now, society rarely thinks about making the attempt to greatness. Let us worry about going too far when we start going at all.

Plus, wherever there are "real-life superheroes," there must be some real-life super villains, and I can only imagine what they would concoct.

The thing is, there world is already full of would-be Lex Luthers and Dr. Dooms. We have the villains, and we the common citizenry have the power to stop them. But our reaction tends to be that with great power comes great delegation. A little awareness, a little concern for the welfare of others, a little action, and the world would be a goof step closer to a utopia.

Samopoznanie

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #4949 on: February 05, 2010, 06:18:36 pm »
I have found a new arch enemy outside of research, essays and correcting exams:

Military paperwork.

Ho-ly shit.

Can they make this anymore tedious?  How many friggin' hoops, acronyms, essays and security clearances do you need for an application? Seriously!  Addresses for the past 10 years, lists of extended family...

Glad I have Jean-Luc on hand:
 :picardno