Author Topic: Lavos and Immortality  (Read 3574 times)

FaustWolf

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Lavos and Immortality
« on: January 09, 2009, 04:30:46 pm »
I didn't see a topic on this and it's been bugging me recently. What is it about Lavos that makes it a necessary part of achieving Zeal's goal of attaining immortality? If I remember correctly energy extraction via the Mammon Machine was also an important goal (the sunstone possibly no longer an efficient energy source), but immortality seemed to be the big haul.

We know that Queen Zeal does, in fact, achieve her immortality goal in the Black Omen timeline, or at least it seems very likely given that she doesn't appear to age whether the party confronts her in 12,000BC or 2300AD. It's also possible that Schala becomes immortal upon merging with Lavos -- depending on how much time she spends in the DBT from her perspective.

It's also apparent that Lavos needed to be awakened before it could confer immortality; hence the whole Ocean Palace Mammon Machine debacle.

Another interesting fact to note is that the clones of Crono & co. in the Black Omen would appear to be immortal, though it's possible this can be attributed to their stasis rather than some effect created by Lavos.

Given these various observations, should we simply chalk up immortality to "Lavoid Emanations" and be done with it from an analysis perspective? Essentially whatever process Lavos uses for its own organic longevity rubs off on whoever is near it, or something?

However, whether Lavos is in a pocket dimension or sleeping within the earth's crust physically, we have the problem of Queen Zeal achieving immortality without Lavos being right beside her the whole time. I suppose this could be resolved by a.) the immortal gains immortality instantaneously, and the effect remains even if he or she is separated from Lavos; or b.) whatever portal gives the Black Omen its special connection to Lavos also transports Lavos' emanations; or c.) Queen Zeal hung around one of the Lavoid spawn lounging around in the Black Omen during her time there, and its emanations proved sufficient.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 04:32:50 pm by FaustWolf »

Zergplex

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 06:26:47 pm »
I think first of all we need to define what Zeal means when she says immortality. I've seen immortality spoken of commonly in two terms, timeless immortality and true immortality. Timeless immortality implies being freed from the degenerating effects of time (such as aging or sickness) but still being subject to unnatural death (such as murder). True immortality is the state of being unkillable, period.

Now I could see Zeal refering to either form of immortality myself. I believe she is refering to Timeless Immortality for two important reasons.

1) Lavos has great powers over time and could, theoretically, give timeless immortality without issue. Truly unkillable immortality would only be possible if the subject 'merged' with Lavos, since Lavos and Zeal both see him as immortal.

2) Zeal is obviously not unkillable as she is killed in the Black Omen.

In retrospect though she could be referring to true immortality though... I need a bit of time and I'll post my theory on that though. Need to collect my thoughts and some game quotes so I don't sound like an idiot.

Made_in_Brasil

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 10:32:39 pm »
I think that Quenn's immortality comes from the Lavos emanations recived via Mammon Machine.
Thats a possibility because we saw that the Lavos emanations empowers magic users long-exposed.
No Enlighted One was exposed as long as the Quenn. Remenber too that the emanations became stronger after the Ocean Palace activation.

So... I believe that the Long exposure to strong Lavos emanations is the real cause of Zeal's immortality. ;)

Cerestryo

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2009, 01:34:07 am »
It's possible that lavos carries over small dna traces in the energy he produces.  the dna could cover small portions of the part of dna that dictates lifespans.  these lavos dna would possibly then enable the inhabitants of the palace of zeal and the other enlightend ones to live as long as a lavoid normally does.  in there minds that could be seen as immortality to them because of there inability to see that lavos eventually must die of natural causes.


or something like that. :?

Made_in_Brasil

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2009, 10:17:52 am »
I really can't see how this DNA stuff would work. It's strange, in terms of biology. How could DNA traces attach's to the DNA of other beings?
Besides, a human body has billions of cells, that gives billions of DNA traces to alter.

Magus_Brokenhart

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 02:15:35 am »
I'd say Zeal was going for agelessness, not immortality.

Perhaps Lavos found out how to stop apoptosis, and direct contact with him could grant that ability to you. Isn't there a legend that the Frozen Flame can give you immortality as well? Lavos was not immortal himself, so he could not grant that to someone else. If he was, all the Lavoids would become immortal, and this cycle of breeding immortals would continue endelessly.

utunnels

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 02:29:52 am »
Quote
[Old Man]
   If the Mammon Machine is moved to
   the Ocean Palace, we can extract even
   more energy from Lavos.
  
   The ultimate dream of eternal youth
   and life, is now possible!
  
   Oh, almighty Queen, our kingdom of
   Zeal will reign forever!
The ultimate dream of eternal youth and life, it should be ageless.



Quote
MELCHIOR: The more energy the
   Mammon Machine absorbs, the
   further the Queen degenerates.

   Her spirit has been stolen by the
   infamous immortal, Lavos.
The immortal Melchior metioned is something like "god" IMO.

Quote
ボッシュ「魔神器が吸い上げる
   エネルギーが大きくなればなるほど
   女王は正気を失っていった……。

   海底に眠る不死の神ラヴォスに
   女王は人としての心を
   食われてしまったのじゃ……。

Yeah, it is god(immortal) in original script. "不死の神" means god with eternal life or god that never dies.



Quote
[Young Woman]
   The Queen took Schala with her to the
   Ocean Palace.
  
   We Enlightened Ones will finally attain
   immortality.

Quote
[Young Woman]
女王様はサラ様をともなって
海底神殿におりられました。

ついにわれら光の民が
永遠の生命を手にするのです。

Immortality is the translation of "永遠の生命", which means "eternal life" literally.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 02:52:52 am by utunnels »

Cerestryo

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 07:13:32 pm »
Quote
I really can't see how this DNA stuff would work. It's strange, in terms of biology. How could DNA traces attach's to the DNA of other beings?
Besides, a human body has billions of cells, that gives billions of DNA traces to alter.

what i have a different idea
the energy from lavos if in great supply could put the body and brain in a bodily renewal and cell regeneration flux that would be able to instantly regenerat lost limbs and such, so they would be imortal, because the heart lungs and other important body parts would never grow old and feeble they would just regenerate into perfectly new parts if they stop working.

Thought

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 05:16:50 pm »
Well Zeal was clearly going for agelessness because I'm fairly sure she's dead by the end of CT. Or at least, agelessness is what she got. Not even Lavos or the Entity are immortal in the Undead Pirate Skeleton sense of the word.

Though, to be fair, it does seem that Lavos is immortal in the D&D Troll sort of way (that is, is seems like one can cut a piece off of Lavos, such as the FF, and still have it function).

So, to address the original question (how does Lavos play into immortality), it would seem that this is by specifically counteracting the normal aging process. As Cerestryo noted, this would include "cell regeneration." Or more exactly, it most likely involved affecting the telomeres (which are what influences how many times a cell can replicate before its dead). Presumably this would require a high level of telomerase (the stuff that repairs the telomeres). Cancer cells tend to have high levels of this.

There is a bit of poetic justice in the immortality granted by Lavos being cancerous in nature. The emanations of Lavos may very well stimulate the production of telomerase, thus preserving the cell life and allowing the body to live (in a way) indefinitely. I, admittedly, understand aging only to a limited degree, but to my understanding a child subjected to this effect would still age physically but not cellularly.

There is more to aging than just cells, however. Our skeletal structure starts out very cartilage but ossifies over time. While not particular an impediment to immortality, it is to eternal youth. Excessive bone growth (in the form of spines) is responsible for the hunched appearance of many older individuals; their bones have grown to such a manner as to no longer allow for proper upright posture. As Queen Zeal lacks a hunched appearance in 2300 AD, this process has been subverted somehow. The two simplest solutions, in the Chrono Series at least, of accomplishing this would be to correct the misbehaving bodily functions that results in this and to simply pause the process.

Given that Lavos (and specifically the Lavos spawn) seem to develop and grow, it is unlikely that ceasing all physical changes is possible from Lavos "radiation." Which then leaves the possibility that something about Lavos' energy encourages bodily functions to achieve perfect efficiency. That is, cells replicate perfectly (never having potentially deadly mutations occur), bone deposits are at the perfect level to maintain proper bone density but not to form aberrant growths, new cartilage is produced at a perfect rate to replace tissue damaged in the normal course of life, etc.

The only potential cause of this, as far as I can tell, is in the foodstuffs that Lavos consumes. He is feeding off of the planet and producing energy similar to the planet (there being both natural and Lavos based magic, one would assume the energies involved are at least similar). As the planet's energy seems to be related to vibrant life (and thus when near drained the world looks like it is ruined), so Lavos' energies might likewise be such.

Which is all a very verbose and round about method of getting back to what Faust originally said: "Lavoid Emanations."

It would seem that there is something about Lavos energy, particularly in high doses, that promotes "perfect" cellular and bodily functions. This may be related to the fact that Lavos is like the Borg, searching for biological perfection by absorbing the elements of creatures on the planet it inhabits; bio-components that degrade would be averse to this goal. Standard biological processes could still happen, but aberrant processes (such as those related to the decaying aspect of aging) would be suppressed.

As the Mammon Machine works as a focal point for Lavos' powers, it seems that mere proximity to that (and not Lavos) is more important, especially once a connection had been made to Lavos. I am not sure Lavos awaking was necessary, but the energy extraction (which resulted in Lavos subsequently awakening) was.

Of course, once these functions have been suppressed, they might remain suppressed or, at least, be far easier to maintain (just like it requires less energy to keep a house cool than to cool it down).

Chrono'99

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2009, 09:49:45 pm »
If you believe that the Frozen Flame was powering the Mammon Machine, there are various quotes on it in RD and CC that could explain Queen Zeal's immortality.

Quote from: Radical Dreamers, about Schala's fate during the Ocean Palace disaster
But the stone, It had other plans for her...Turning back
the hands of her clock, scattering her memories, she was granted another
chance. Since the precious stone was in her possession, she carried with her
all its will and power. And so, she was born into this era, returning to
reality as a mere infant...

Quote from: Chrono Cross, Chronopolis
[Ghost]
   I heard group 3B's experiment
   today is going to be a biggie.
   They're releasing the Flame's
   lock-level to D in order to trace
   the counter-time effect...
   
 [Ghost]
   Yeah, but based on previous
   experiments, I'm sure it'll
   work out just fine.
   During their simulation,
   FATE guaranteed that they
   would be able to use the
   Flame as an up-link to
   extract the anti-annihilation
   energy associated with it.
   Don't worry, it'll be a success.

 [Ghost]
   Once we're able to counter
   time successfully at will, we'll
   have full control over time.
   We'll find out soon enough.

(...)

[Chief]
   Perhaps what we are
   doing is wrong?
   If this experiment succeeds,
   we will be able to control time.
   We will have complete control over
   history and, in a sense, become
   a presence, much like god...
   If so, what meaning is there
   to the history of mankind?
   But it's too late, now...
   We can't afford to fail
   in this experiment.
   If, for some reason, anything
   goes wrong, the anti-annihilation
   energy will probably overwhelm us.
   Who knows what the
   consequences may be?

Also the Frozen Flame healed Serge's body when he was attacked by the panther demon.

It's interesting how you mention cancer; one of the ghosts in Chronopolis says "We're conducting a simulation of phase metastasis." The Compendium theory page on phase metastasis has two theories... Seems like "immortality" could be a third.

So the way I see it, the Frozen Flame was in the Mammon Machine and the Machine radiated anti-annihilation energy that prevented Queen Zeal's body from degenerating (i.e. that was continuously healing her body).

Finally, kinda off topic but note that "Lavos immortality" may not the only type of immortality in the series. According to Masato Kato, Harle never aged since her birth in 1006 AD and always had the body of an 18-year-old girl.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 09:54:29 pm by Chrono'99 »

Lakonthegreat

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2009, 12:18:55 am »
Here's a thought.

Perhaps the immortality mentioned is more like this: Lavos exists inside a Pocket Dimension which we've already proved transcends time and space by being its own dimension. The Black Omen then inhabits this Pocket Dimension. Perhaps the Queen was just lusting to live in Lavos's Pocket Dimension, where time does not exactly flow. This would therefore stop any aging due to the concept of time being irrelevant inside the PD.

Could be wrong, but possibly existing in Lavos's PD causes the aging process to stop by transcending time itself.

xcalibur

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2009, 08:48:54 am »
she never had true immortality, as she can be killed.

i agree that it was emanations/power of lavos that gave her agelessness. lavos power allowed her to keep living in youth and strength for thousands of years. its also the same reason why she presented a challenging battle for chrono & co.. she was a strong magic user before, but lavos power made her much stronger.

Thought

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Re: Lavos and Immortality
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 11:52:18 am »
Perhaps the immortality mentioned is more like this: Lavos exists inside a Pocket Dimension which we've already proved transcends time and space by being its own dimension. The Black Omen then inhabits this Pocket Dimension. Perhaps the Queen was just lusting to live in Lavos's Pocket Dimension, where time does not exactly flow. This would therefore stop any aging due to the concept of time being irrelevant inside the PD.

Except that the PD theory has essentially been proven to be bunk.

If you believe that the Frozen Flame was powering the Mammon Machine, there are various quotes on it in RD and CC that could explain Queen Zeal's immortality.

Depends on how one looks at it. In CT, the Frozen Flame didn't power the Mammon Machine because the FF wasn't part of the mythos. We can see that the FF was developed later because it changed between RD and CC. Which means that if there was a reason in CT for the Queen to be immortal, then the FF can't be it (of course things could have been retconned later, changing that reason into being the FF).

Of course, even if the FF was present in the Mammon Machine is rather unimportant. The FF is/was part of Lavos, yes? Its energies should therefore be similar to or less than the power of Lavos in general, yes? FF or no, the Mammon Machine was drawing on the power of Lavos, therefore any curious energies emanated from the FF could be present in the Mammon Machine as it was either directly or indirectly tapping the energies of Lavos.

The quotes regarding the FF (except those from RD) can just as equally be applied to Lavos as a whole.

Which is to say that I agree with most of what you said, I just find the presence of the FF inside the Mammon Machine to be unnecessary.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 12:00:03 pm by Thought »