Author Topic: Thoughts on the Time Crash...  (Read 3638 times)

BROJ

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Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« on: March 14, 2008, 05:30:07 pm »
So, anyways, I was pondering why the Time Crash occured and trying to put together an explicit (e.g. from CT & CC) explanation of why the Time Crash occurred. So here are my thoughts (forgive me if they are a little disorganized, I'm just trying to get them down.): The time crashed had occurred when chronopolis was shunted to 12000 B.C.. Was it mentioned where, spatially, it was. My theory states that chronopolis was controlled by the frozen flame (as supported by the compendium:
Lavos's temporal powers have been established; he was probably able to effect the movement of the Sea of Eden through time with the aid of the Frozen Flame, which served as the power source for the time research facility.
) and was sent to when and where Crono and co. first arrived in 12000 B.C. canceling their arrival via anti-annihilation energy. In other words: they disappear -- they do not go to the DBT -- they do not kill Lavos -- they do not pass go -- and they most certainly do not collect $200 dollars either -- they disappear. Well, wait a minute!  :idea: That would violate the property of the Emergence Preservation Corollary (as stated in here.) . So, bluntly, the Time Crash probably happened because A) The Emergence Preservation Corollary *must* be preserved and B) A new timeline *must* be created due to changes wrought by Lavos. So a new dimension was created where Crono and co. never defeated Lavos; and neither of the dimensions could be shunted off to the DBT because they fit the prerequisites' antitheses. If I am right here that pushes me to the next question: "Why would Belthazar purposely do this!?" (He did -- as he orchestrated everything from the Frozen Flame experiment to Project Kid.) The answer, simply, to save Schala from Lavos. O.K. thats all fine and dandy, but how does he propose to clean up the situation. The answer: he motivated and observed Crono & co. fighting Lavos to see if it was truly possible to kill a temporal anomaly such as Lavos. They could -- so he set up the plans for Project Kid, the Frozen Flame experiment, and other miscellaneous details needed to fulfill his plan, and set them in motion to save Serge, a "missing piece" that was the only existence able to resolve the dimensional crisis at hand. He then aided and motivated Serge to clean up his(Belthazar's) mess and tie up loose ends, so that "*everyone* can have their cake *and* eat it too". But that still doesn't explain why Belthazar would be so sure in doing this. Knowing Belthazar's behavior he wouldn't throw dice, as it were -- he knew what Lavos, through the Frozen Flame, would do; specifically protect his(Lavos' existence by *annihilating* Crono and co.s'. This event put Belthazar(in Chronopolis) at the time of Schala where he discovered she was shunted into the future. He then found Schala(Kid) turned into a child by the Frozen Flame at 1000+ A.D.(I'm not sure but I think Kid, her name, was a developer pun off of the fact that she was turned into a child. This situation is elaborated on in RD-A Bittersweet Resolution -- or here.) and made sure that child was to be found and taken care of by Lucca until Lynx(FATE) would murder Lucca and set in motion the events of CC.

This is just an attempt to explain why the Time Crash occurred, so critique would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.  :)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 08:48:18 pm by BROJ »

VincentGAU8

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2008, 05:06:10 am »
the theory is pretty good, and likewise the questions it raised.. although i am rather confused and i had to refer to the compendium's encyclopedia.., it is good nevertheless, and i am now pondering on your ideas  :)

rushingwind

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2008, 05:49:56 am »
Interesting thoughts, BROJ.  While I don't have anything to add to your theory, I do have one little nitpick.

Quote
Kid:
   In the year 2400, during a
   counter-time experiment, the
   Flame goes out of control....
   Engulfed in an enormous
   dimensional vortex,
   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years
back in time.

That would put the Time Crash back in 8400BC, long after 12000BC.  Therefore, I'm not sure the Emergence Preservation Corollary would be a cause for the Time Crash. 

Though, it's very late and I've worked all day, so I could be misunderstanding something in your post...   :(


EDIT:  Belthasar's megalomania has also been an interesting point for me to ponder as well.  I understand he wanted to save Schala (and the world), but...wow.  Any of a million things could of gone wrong, and didn't seem like the gambling type.

I swear, Chrono Cross is the only game I've ever had to think so hard about just to understand the plot.  (That's one reason why I love it so much!)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 05:59:49 am by rushingwind »

VincentGAU8

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2008, 06:25:51 am »
I swear, Chrono Cross is the only game I've ever had to think so hard about just to understand the plot.  (That's one reason why I love it so much!)

Yeah, same here rushingwind..

i thought there was some considerable debate here at the Compendium on when exactly was Chronopolis
hurled back in time.. i am not sure where i read that though.. and it seems to me that every string in CC was for Belthasar's pulling, he manipulated both FATE and Lavos to do his bidding.. i think i'm gonna read the encyclopedia again..

Starman Invincible

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 09:23:15 pm »
The site's current stance is that Chronopolis vs Dinopolis happened in 12000 BC, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of this.  Ultimania?  Honestly, I think the Encyclopedia articles should have references on it like Wikipedia (and I find it pretty strange that a former Wiki DOESN'T have this).  It would help to alleviate the huge headache that is navigating this site.

Vehek

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 09:52:13 pm »
I think it's somewhere in the forums.
Here's what I remember:
  • A "magical kingdom" (Zeal) was destroyed "ten thousand years" ago.
  • Chronopolis has been in the past for "10,000 years".
  • Schala "traveled ten thousand years in time to try and make contact with this dimension"
Basically, the assumption is that "10,000 years ago" is not an exact amount, but rather refers to 12,000 B.C.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 09:55:34 pm by Vehek »

Thought

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 12:33:23 pm »
While I like the idea, that would essentially place Chronopolis around the Heckran Cave/Magic Cave in CT (see my post on Porre and Guardia for a details map analysis, but essentially, compare the 12000 map with a 600 AD map to see what I mean). Porre is no longer "to the east" but more of to the "south" and Guardia is more of "to the west" rather than "to the north." Also, it would have placed Chronopolis on a large landmass, not in the middle of an ocean. Additionally, didn't one of the maps in Chronopolis reveal what the Sea of Eden originally looked like before the time crash (that being a sea, and with Gaia's Naval clearly present)?

BROJ

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 03:34:04 pm »
While I like the idea, that would essentially place Chronopolis around the Heckran Cave/Magic Cave in CT (see my post on Porre and Guardia for a details map analysis, but essentially, compare the 12000 map with a 600 AD map to see what I mean). Porre is no longer "to the east" but more of to the "south" and Guardia is more of "to the west" rather than "to the north." Also, it would have placed Chronopolis on a large landmass, not in the middle of an ocean. Additionally, didn't one of the maps in Chronopolis reveal what the Sea of Eden originally looked like before the time crash (that being a sea, and with Gaia's Naval clearly present)?


Would someone be as kind as to provide the tile and texture dumps form CT and CC so this issue can be resolved? Thanks in advance. I'm pretty sure I have the latitude correct, as per Gaia's Navel's equitorial climate... alas longitude will have to be determined. However, I postulate it is just off(north-east) of the Porrean mainland, in the Porrean Gulf if you will(on land in 12000 BC, specifically, the arrival cave, but doesn't really matter at this point as it is nullifying the area anyways).

A picture to show that the land mass's location and availability during 1000+ A.D.

And as an added bonus, it is quite within Porre's reach, so accessibility for them isn't an issue.

Thought

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 04:04:08 pm »
Would someone be as kind as to provide the tile and texture dumps form CT and CC so this issue can be resolved? Thanks in advance. I'm pretty sure I have the latitude correct, as per Gaia's Navel's equitorial climate... alas longitude will have to be determined. However, I postulate it is just off(north-east) of the Porrean mainland, in the Porrean Gulf if you will(on land in 12000 BC, specifically, the arrival cave, but doesn't really matter at this point as it is nullifying the area anyways).

Are you getting Gaia's Navel's latitude only from its "equitorial climate"? Unfortunately, we don't really know where the equator actually is on Planet Chrono; there is no firm indication that the Chrono Trigger Map is supposed to represent the whole world. It might just be one hemisphere or less (after all, we don't see ice caps, even in the Dark Ages). Given that you are (inadvertently, presumably) placing Dorino in the Equator Region as well, is is somewhat curious that the environment appears to be no different than that of Porre or Truce.

Still, even if El Nido is there, that still presents the problem of Porre being to the west and south, rather than the East. It would also be curious, then, as to why it took people so long to find El Nido when there was apparently significant traffice between the Zenan continent and Choras.

Hmm... I wonder if El Nido is supposed to be a play on El Nino (for those of you who no habla espanol, El Nino is Spanish for... ... The Nino!). Do we even have any indication that El Nido itself is in an equatorial region of the planet, as opposed to just happening to be a tropical-like area?

FaustWolf

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 04:17:26 pm »
Would someone be as kind as to provide the tile and texture dumps form CT and CC so this issue can be resolved?

Which graphics do you guys need, exactly?  I'll be working on getting an assembled overworld map of El Nido soon.

BROJ

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 12:45:14 am »
Would someone be as kind as to provide the tile and texture dumps form CT and CC so this issue can be resolved?

Which graphics do you guys need, exactly?  I'll be working on getting an assembled overworld map of El Nido soon.
World Map Graphics, specifically, the WM images shown in Chronopolis

FaustWolf

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2008, 06:18:20 pm »
I'll let you know when I come across those. Were the world map graphics in Chronopolis supposed to show the whole world, including the Chrono Trigger landmasses? I forget. I'll be using the in-game Overworld Map for some room file construction experiments, and I'll release the fully-assembled world map when I've got it done.

As an aside, I just read in the American instruction booklet:
The silent protagonist, Serge...lives in Arni Village, on th El Nido Archipelago, located in the seas of the far south.

Could it be a solid clue as to El Nido's position with respect to the CT landmasses?

BROJ

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2008, 06:44:25 pm »
I'll let you know when I come across those. Were the world map graphics in Chronopolis supposed to show the whole world, including the Chrono Trigger landmasses? I forget. I'll be using the in-game Overworld Map for some room file construction experiments, and I'll release the fully-assembled world map when I've got it done.

As an aside, I just read in the American instruction booklet:
The silent protagonist, Serge...lives in Arni Village, on th El Nido Archipelago, located in the seas of the far south.

Could it be a solid clue as to El Nido's position with respect to the CT landmasses?
Thanks for the info, Faustwolf.  :)
Just thought I'd note this:

Quote from: Wikipedia; Definition of Sea
A sea is either a large expanse of saline water connected with an ocean, or a large, usually saline, lake that lacks a natural outlet such as the Caspian Sea and the Dead Sea. The term is used colloquially as synonymous with ocean, as in "the tropical sea" or "down to the sea shore", or even "sea water" to refer to water of the ocean. Large lakes, such as the Great Lakes, are sometimes referred to as inland seas. Many seas are marginal seas, in which currents are caused by ocean winds; others are mediterranean seas, in which currents are caused by differences in salinity and temperature.
So in other words by "far south" they probably mean 'southern hemisphere'(vicinity of Porre) and by 'sea' a body of water surrounded by land.

...also:

Quote from: Wikipedia; Definition or Archipelago
An archipelago is a chain or cluster of islands. The word archipelago literally means "chief sea", from Greek arkhon (arkhi-) ("leader") and pelagos ("sea"). In antiquity, the Archipelago (Greek: Αρхιπέλαγος) was the proper name for the Aegean Sea and, later, usage shifted to refer to the Aegean Islands (since the sea is remarkable for its large number of islands). It is now used to generally refer to any island group or, sometimes, to a sea containing a large number of scattered islands like the Aegea.
Image of Aegea:
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 06:57:43 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2008, 07:12:33 pm »
So in other words by "far south" they probably mean 'southern hemisphere'(vicinity of Porre) and by 'sea' a body of water surrounded by land.

Not necessarily. Not all seas are seas, you see? Consider the Sargasso Sea; it is a sea surrounded by an ocean.

BROJ

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Re: Thoughts on the Time Crash...
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2008, 07:23:11 pm »
Not necessarily. Not all seas are seas, you see? Consider the Sargasso Sea; it is a sea surrounded by an ocean.

Quote from: Wikipedia; Definition of Sea
[...] The term is used colloquially as synonymous with ocean, as in "the tropical sea" or "down to the sea shore", or even "sea water" to refer to water of the ocean. [...]
Such is an improper use of the term as noted by the definition.