May 3, 2015 - Shueshia Interview with Hironobu Sakaguchi and Yuji Horii

General Information[edit]

https://wpb.shueisha.co.jp/news/entertainment/2015/05/03/47226/

=Japanese[edit]

スーファミ世代、悶絶の２大レジェンド対談！ 堀井雄二（ドラクエ）×坂口博信（ＦＦ）【後編】 「自分で作ったものに熱中できるなんて他ではない」

エンタメ

2015年05月03日

Facebookでシェア Twitterでシェア はてなブックマークでシェア Tumblrでシェア Pocketでシェア メールでシェア ドラクエ、ＦＦシリーズのレジェンド、堀井雄二氏（左）と坂口博信氏（右）がタッグを組んだ作品『クロノトリガー』の制作秘話とは？

『ドラクエ』の生みの親、堀井雄二氏と『ＦＦ』の生みの親、坂口博信氏によるレジェンド対談が十数年ぶりに実現！

前編では、スーファミ時代の両タイトルのお話をしていただいたが、後半ではおふたりの最新のお仕事について、そしてふたりがタッグを組んだ超名作ＲＰＧ『クロノ・トリガー』のトークをお送りします！【記事前編→　http://wpb.shueisha.co.jp/2015/05/02/47221/】

―坂口さんは今まさに１７０万ダウンロードを突破（１５年３月２０日現在）している『テラバトル』というスマホゲームを手がけてらっしゃいますよね。この作品には『ＦＦ』シリーズの音楽を担当した植松伸夫さん、パッケージイラストなどを担当された天野喜孝さんもゲスト参加されていて、ファミコン、スーファミ時代の『ＦＦ』ファンにはたまらない大御所集合といった感じです！

坂口　天野さんのイラストは１５０万ダウンロードを突破したらゲームに登場させるという公約になっていたんですよね。スーファミ時代までのグラフィックだと、天野さんの繊細に描かれた絵を表現するのは至難の業（わざ）というか、完全再現は不可能じゃないですか。

けど、スマホなら天野さんの絵をそのまま使えますからね。スーファミ時代に叶わなかった悲願が今、ようやく叶った気分（笑）。

堀井　『テラバトル』は２００万ダウンロード突破したら、次はコンシューマー版（ゲーム専用機版）を発売するって聞きましたよ。

坂口　そうですね、そうぶち上げちゃってますね（笑）。期待していてください。でもスマホのゲームって、ディスプレーの性能や音質は抜群にいいんですけど、意外とＣＰＵとかのスペックが高くないのでいろいろ制限があるんですよ。

それにメインの制作スタッフも１０人ぐらいだったりするんで、作っている感覚はファミコンやスーファミ時代にすごく近いんです。だからなんとなく懐かしみながら作ってますよ。

―一方、堀井さんの『ドラクエ』は「Ｘ」のバージョン３にあたる『ドラゴンクエストＸ　いにしえの竜の伝承　オンライン』が４月３０日に発売を控えています。「Ｘ」で初挑戦となったオンラインゲームはいかがでしたか？

堀井　ひとつの遊びの方向性として、ネットでつながった人たちと同じ世界で冒険するというのは、すごく作り込みがいがありましたよ。運営開始してから３年ほどたちますが、まだ世界が広がるっていうのもすごいことですしね。

あと来年は『ドラクエ』３０周年なんで、ファンの皆さんの期待を裏切らない、でもびっくりさせられる発表もできると思います。坂口さんのゲームはもちろん、僕のほうにも期待してもらえれば（笑）。

■テラバトルhttps://youtu.be/mo0Pka2Z8ao

■ドラゴンクエストＸ　いにしえの竜の伝承　オンラインhttps://youtu.be/iFPjfT3VIs8

伝説の『クロノ・トリガー』合宿

―そんな今でもよきライバル関係のおふたりが、スーファミ時代に奇跡の共作を果たした伝説のゲームもありましたよね。堀井さんと坂口さん、そしてキャラデザインには鳥山明さんも加わった『クロノ・トリガー』は不朽の名作！

坂口　『クロノ』は今でも相当人気がありますからね。海外でも人気ですし。

堀井　けどね、あれは本当にきつかった（笑）。なんせ『ＤＱVI』の開発スケジュールとバッチリかぶってたんで、しばらく同時進行したりして。

坂口　『ドラクエ』方式を参照して、主人公は喋らせないことにしたんですよね。

堀井　体験型の『ドラクエ』と、ドラマを見せる『ＦＦ』をかけ合わせた感覚だったよね。ゲーム画面は当時のスクウェアさんっぽさが前面に出たグラフィックで、でもプレイした感覚はどこか『ドラクエ』っぽいという。そして『クロノ・トリガー』といえば、忘れもしない、六本木の全日空ホテル（現ＡＮＡインターコンチネンタルホテル東京）で最初に行なわれた合宿（笑）。

―まさかの『クロノ・トリガー』合宿ですか！？

堀井　そうそう。豪華だったな～（笑）。エニックスでも合宿とかやったことあったけど、あんな高級ホテルには泊まらないし、食事のお皿も自分で下げるような合宿所だったから「さすがスクウェア、お金あるな！」って心の中で叫んでましたよ（笑）。

坂口　いやいや、あの時は大御所の堀井さんをお迎えするっていうんで、特別にということでかなりムチャしたんです（笑）。いつもならもっともっとグレードが低いところで合宿でしたから。

堀井　本当に？（笑）。でも、あの合宿で最後のボスをどうしようかってことをすぐに決めたよね。惑星に寄生しているっていう設定とか。

坂口　堀井さんはラスボスへのこだわりが強いですよね。

堀井　うん。ほら、ラスボスが何を目的にしているかによって主人公たちの行動が決まってくるわけだから。最初に決めるし、すごく重要なポイントだと思ってる。

『クロノ・トリガー』（１９９５年）は多彩なシステムを搭載。ゲームの進行度によるマルチエンディングもそのひとつだが、中には言葉を発さなかった主人公・クロノがラストで会話するレアシーンも！？

スクウェアとエニックス、まさかの合併

第二の四天王の罠から主人公たちを救うため、自らを石化するパロムとポロム。『ファイナルファンタジーIV』（１９９１年）の映画のような涙腺を刺激する演出は、後のシリーズにも受け継がれている

―ふたりが組んでゲームを出すというのは、当時すごく衝撃的でした。勝手にバチバチに敵対していると思っていたので（笑）。

堀井　でも、それを言うならさ、スクウェアとエニックスの合併（０３年）のほうがよっぽどびっくりしたよ（笑）。少年マンガではライバル同士が仲間になる展開は王道だけど、まさか現実社会で、しかも自分のすぐ身近で起こるなんてさ（笑）。

坂口　 仲間になるどころかライバル同士の結婚みたいなものですから。いや、『ＤＱＶ』で主人公が結婚して驚いてましたけど、まさか『ドラクエ』と『ＦＦ』の会社が結婚するなんて想像もしてませんでした（笑）。マンガなら面白くて熱い展開ですけど、現実に起こるとただただ驚愕しちゃいますね。不思議な感覚でし た。

堀井　あんなに驚くこと、人生でもそうないね（笑）。

―では最後に、おふたりにとっての“ゲームとは何か？”を教えていただけますか。

坂口　僕の場合、それこそゲームで物語を紡げるということは、すごく素晴らしいことだと思っていて。スーファミ時代はかわいらしくデフォルメされたドット絵のキャラたちがちょこまか動いているだけだったのに、その物語で感動したというユーザーさんの声をいただけたのは本当にいい経験でしたよ。

特に、スーファミで初めて出した『ＦＦIV』でパロムとポロム（魔道士の少年と少女）が自ら石化して主人公たちを助けるというシーンを入れたんですが、そこで涙しましたって感想をたくさんいただいて、やってきてよかったなって。あれは忘れられないですね。

堀井　あのシーンはいいよねぇ。僕はいつでもプレイしてくれた人たちに驚きを与えたいという気持ちでゲームを作ってます。『ＤＱＶ』では丁寧に結婚相手を選ぶということでプレイヤーがびっくりするだろうなと考えていたし、『ＤＱVI』では“自分探し”をテーマにして夢と現実を入れ替えちゃうって仕掛けを用意したし。

坂口　それと、ゲームっていうのは開発者でさえ思い通りにならないっていうのが醍醐味なんじゃないかな。例えば、生みの親である堀井さんがプレイしたからって、メタルスライムへの攻撃が当たるようになるわけじゃないし、はぐれメタルにはすぐ逃げられるだろうし（笑）。

堀井　それは言えるね。僕も自分で作っておきながら、自分のゲームは結構やり込むタイプだから。自身で作ったものに熱中できるっていうのは、他のエンターテインメントではなかなかできない体験かもしれないよ。

坂口　敵を倒して宝箱を落とすかどうかも、コンピューターがランダムに決めることだから確率は平等なはずなんですけどね。でも自分だけ狙いのお宝がずっと手に入らなかったりすると、ゲームの中にある種の人格を感じたりしますよね。

堀井　僕にだけ意地悪しやがって、とか（笑）。ゲームならではの楽しみ方だね。

―ありがとうございます！　ゲーム史に残る対談、感動しました！！

●堀井雄二フリーライターとして活躍後、ＰＣゲームにハマり、開発した『ドラゴンクエスト』が大ヒット。シリーズ最新作『ドラゴンクエストヒーローズ　闇竜と世界樹の城』が好評発売中。６１歳

●坂口博信スクウェアで『ファイナルファンタジー』シリーズを立ち上げ、「ＸＩ」まで携わる。２００４年、ミストウォーカーを設立。現在手がけているスマホゲーム『テラバトル』は好評配信中。５２歳

（取材／昌谷大介　牛嶋 健　武松佑季　千葉雄樹　東 賢志（Ａ４ｓｔｕｄｉｏ）撮影／下城英悟）

English[edit]

The Super Famicom Generation's Fainting in Agony: A Conversation with Two Legends! Yuji Horii (Dracula) and Hironobu Sakaguchi (FF) [Part 2] "There's nothing else like being able to get absorbed in something you created yourself.

Entertainment

May 03, 2015

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Hatena Bookmark Share on Tumblr Share on Pocket Share via Email Dracula and FF series legends Yuji Horii (left) and Hironobu Sakaguchi (right) joined forces What is the story behind the creation of "Chrono Trigger"?

The legendary conversation between Yuji Horii, creator of "Dracula" and Hironobu Sakaguchi, creator of "FF" has come together for the first time in more than ten years!

In the first part, they talked about both titles from the SNES era, and in the second part, they will talk about their latest work, as well as "Chrono Trigger," a super classic RPG in which the two have teamed up! Part 1: http://wpb.shueisha.co.jp/2015/05/02/47221/

-Mr. Sakaguchi is currently working on "TETE", which has been downloaded more than 1.7 million times (as of March 2, 2003). You are working on a smartphone game called "Terra Battle," which has been downloaded more than 1.7 million times (as of March 2, 2003). Nobuo Uematsu, who was in charge of music for the "FF" series, and Yoshitaka Amano, who was in charge of package illustrations, also participated in this work as guests. It's a gathering of great names that fans of the Famicom and Super Famicom era "FF" games will not be able to resist!

Sakaguchi: We had promised that Amano-san's illustrations would appear in the game if the number of downloads exceeded 1.5 million. With the graphics of the Super Famicom (SNES) era, it was extremely difficult to reproduce Amano-san's intricate drawings, and it would be impossible to completely replicate his work.

But with smartphones, we can use Amano's drawings as they are. It feels like a long-cherished wish that was never fulfilled in the SNES era has finally come true (laughs).

Horii I heard that once "Terra Battle" exceeds 2 million downloads, a consumer version (dedicated game console version) will be released next.

Sakaguchi Yes, that's right, they've already announced that (laughs). (Laughs.) Please look forward to it. But although smartphone games have excellent display performance and sound quality, the CPU and other specs are not as high as you might expect, so there are various limitations.

In addition, the main production staff is about 10 people, so the feeling of making a game is very similar to the days of the NES and SNES. So, I make games with a sense of nostalgia.

-On the other hand, Mr. Horii's "Dracula" game, "Dragon Quest X: Legend of the Last Dragon Online," version 3 of "X," is scheduled for release on April 30. On the other hand, Mr. Horii's "Dragon Quest" is "Dragon Quest X: The Inseparable Dragon's Legacy Online," version 3 of "X. How was your first attempt at an online game with "X"?

Horii: As a direction of play, it was very challenging to create an adventure in the same world with people who are connected through the Internet. It's been about three years since we started operating the game, but it's great that the world is still expanding.

Also, next year is the 30th anniversary of "Dracula," so I think we will be able to make an announcement that will not betray the expectations of the fans, but will still surprise them. I hope that people will not only look forward to Sakaguchi-san's game, but also to mine (laughs).

Terra Battle: https://youtu.be/mo0Pka2Z8ao

Dragon Quest X: Inishie no Ryu no Densetsu Online: https://youtu.be/iFPjfT3VIs8

Legendary "Chrono Trigger" training camp

-There was a legendary game that you two, who are still great rivals, miraculously collaborated on during the SNES era, wasn't there? Horii-san and Sakaguchi-san, with Akira Toriyama as a character designer, created the timeless masterpiece "Chrono Trigger"!

Sakaguchi: "Chrono" is still quite popular even today. It is popular overseas as well.

Horii But that was really tough (laughs). It clashed perfectly with the development schedule for "DQVI," so we had to work on it at the same time for a while.

Sakaguchi: We decided not to have the main character speak, based on the "Dracula" method.

Horii: It was a combination of the "Dracula" experience and the "FF" drama. The game screen had the graphics of Square at the time, but the feeling of playing the game was somewhat like playing "Dracula". And speaking of "Chrono Trigger," I will never forget the first training camp held at the ANA Hotel in Roppongi (now the ANA InterContinental Hotel Tokyo) (laughter).

Laughs] - You didn't expect a "Chrono Trigger" training camp?

Horii Yes, that's right. It was gorgeous~ (laughs). I had been to training camps at Enix, but never in such a luxurious hotel, where you had to take down the dishes yourself. I was shouting in my mind (laughs).

Sakaguchi: No, no, no. At that time, we were going to welcome the great Mr. Horii, so we made a special effort to be extravagant (laughs). (Laughs) Normally, we would have stayed at a much lower grade camp.

Horii: Really? (laughs). (laughs) But at that camp, we quickly decided what to do with the final boss. We decided on a planet-parasite as the final boss.

Sakaguchi: You are very particular about the final boss, aren't you, Mr. Horii?

Horii: Yes. You see, the main characters' actions are determined by what the last boss is trying to accomplish. It is decided at the beginning, and I think it is a very important point.

Chrono Trigger" (1995) featured a variety of systems. One of them is the multiple endings depending on the progress of the game, and there is even a rare scene in which the main character Chrono, who never spoke a word, has a conversation at the end!

Square and Enix, an unexpected merger

Palom and Porom petrify themselves to save the protagonists from the trap of the second Four Heavenly Kings. The cinematic, tear-jerking effects of "Final Fantasy IV" (1991) have been carried over to later games in the series.

-The idea of the two of them working together to release a game was a big shock at the time. I thought they were bitter enemies (laughs).

(laughs) But if you put it that way, the merger between Square and Enix (in 2003) was even more surprising (laughs). In shōnen manga, rivals becoming friends with each other is a standard development, but I never thought it would happen in the real world, and in my immediate surroundings (laughs).

Sakaguchi: Not only did they become friends, but it was like a marriage between rivals. I was surprised when the main character got married in "DQV," but I never imagined that the company of "Dracula" and "FF" would get married (laughs). In a comic book, it would be an interesting and exciting development, but when it happens in real life, I am simply astonished. It was a strange feeling.

Horii: It's not every day in life that you get such a surprise (laughs).

(laughs). - Finally, could you tell us what games mean to you two? (laughs).

Sakaguchi: In my case, I think it is a wonderful thing to be able to weave a story in a game. In the days of the Super Famicom (SNES), there were only cute deformed dot characters that moved around a bit, but it was a great experience to hear users say that they were moved by the story.

In particular, in the first "FFIV" for the SNES, we included a scene in which Palom and Porom (a mage boy and girl) are petrified to save the main characters, and we received many comments that the scene brought tears to their eyes. I will never forget that scene. I will never forget that scene.

Horii That scene is great. I always make games with the intention of surprising the people who play them. In "DQV", I thought that players would be surprised by the careful selection of marriage partners, and in "DQVI", the theme was "finding yourself". In "DQVI," we prepared a mechanism to switch between dreams and reality under the theme of "self-discovery.

Sakaguchi: Another thing about games is that even the developers can't always get what they want. For example, just because you, Mr. Horii, the creator of the game, played the game, it doesn't mean that you will be able to hit the Metal Slime, or that the Hagure Metals will run away from you immediately (laughs).

(Laughs.) I can say that. I'm the type of person who plays my own games even though I made them myself. Being able to get absorbed in something you created yourself is probably an experience that is hard to find in other forms of entertainment.

Sakaguchi: The computer randomly decides whether or not to drop a treasure chest after defeating an enemy, so the probability should be equal. But when you are the only one who can't get the treasure you are after for a long time, you feel a certain personality in the game, don't you?

Horii Like, "You were mean only to me" (laughs). (laughs) That's the kind of fun that only a game can give you.

-Thank you very much!　I'm so moved by this dialogue, a conversation that will go down in gaming history!

●Yuji HoriiAfter working as a freelance writer, he got into PC games and developed "Dragon Quest," which became a huge hit. The latest in the series, "Dragon Quest Heroes: The Dark Dragon and the Castle of the World Tree" is now on sale. 61 years old.

Hironobu SakaguchiHironobu Sakaguchi launched the "Final Fantasy" series at Square and worked on it until "XI. In 2004, he established Mistwalker. His current smartphone game, "Terra Battle," is currently being distributed to great acclaim. 52 years old.

(Reporting by Daisuke Masatani, Ken Ushijima, Yuki Takematsu, Yuki Chiba, Kenshi Azuma (A4studio) Photography by Eigo Shimojo) / Eigo Shimojo)

From: Interviews