Author Topic: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis  (Read 4801 times)

NeroBz

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Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« on: July 26, 2012, 08:54:23 pm »
When Lucca come across Crono in Middle Ages, she makes an insinuation that Queen Leene will be assassinated. But until no there considered that Marle vanishes while Leene is alive. Therefore Marle only shouldn't is present in Middle Ages, and subsequent events make more sense.
Due conflict between Magus and Guardia, the Leene's kidnapping ensures triumph of Mystics. It influences the object of incident in Leene Square. Thus without sentimental value, for is lost the historic value, Marle would haven't worry so much about her pendant. Until in another timeline, possibly since the start she is married with Crono, who receives the pendant. Since the start because by connection with Crono's dream after defeat Magus on Middle Ages. And as for Marle mention a dark place when reappears, I suppose it is a present age dominated by the mystics. After all, must consider that Leene is fine when Marle vanishes, and that Marle would don't uses machine of Lucca.

utunnels

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 12:38:57 am »
I'm wondering, what if Marle doesn't disappear? Maybe they just can't take Marle home because everyone in Mid Age mistakes her for the queen, perhaps Crono and Lucca will be treated as terrorists or psychos or whatever. Will Marle become her own ancestor in this case?


***
Edit*


Though that means they fails to know the real queen was kidnapped.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 12:45:05 am by utunnels »

Manly Man

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 08:07:57 pm »
I remember hearing it theorized at some point that the one responsible for Marle's disappearance was a gambit on The Entity's part. With the disappearance (cosmic-level kidnapping) of Marle came the drive for the group to 'fix' what went wrong, and so with their experience after they saved Marle, they were similarly motivated when they happened upon the portal to the future to go and stop what was going to destroy the world in the distant future.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 01:12:20 pm »
Though that means they fails to know the real queen was kidnapped.

I'm not sure on that. The news about the Queen's kidnapping was talked about through all of Guardia. Even if Marle hadn't disappeared the trio would still realize she still is in danger since the search party got called off when they found Marle.

Lucca can still bring up her ''Grandfather Paradox'' stuff to urge them to do something about it, and I'm sure Marle would motivate them anyway, as it's her ancestor who is in danger. And even at this point they know history can suffer a big change if she isn't found in time anyway.

I could see that situation branching off into two possible outcomes that wouldn't impact even the flow of the original game...

1) They explain the mix-up to the King. They are believed and the search continues. However, they decide to keep the ruse for the sake of the citizenry or something, so Marle has to stay behind while Crono and Lucca agree to help in the search. They reach the Cathedral and stuff goes on as per the game.

Or...

2) They don't believe them, or they decide to don't tell. Either way Marle stays behind to keep the ruse while Crono and Lucca take matters on their own had. And again they reach the Cathedral and stuff foes on as per the game.

NeroBz

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 07:10:29 pm »
Manly Man, agreeing with Eske, who ponder about Marle too, I don't believe that this is an exception to the rule. The fact is that the Queen isn't dead when Marle disappears and Marle isn't out from time because remember the lenght of herself disappearance. For me, exists a clearer solution if recognize that inference of Lucca may also be rash. Otherwise, merely she don't not know Crono and so never climb on machine in Leene Square. As I can be is uncertain is about where it was sent.

utunnels

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 09:18:02 pm »

I remember hearing it theorized at some point that the one responsible for Marle's disappearance was a gambit on The Entity's part.
I think I once mentioned that.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6596.msg151625.html#msg151625

Otherwise it is quite similar to the plot from Back to the Future, the protagonist notices himself is fading away from the photograph.

Lennis

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 12:28:51 am »
I actually take a whole new angle to the Marle question in my Chrono Trigger novel, something that will be explained in full in an upcoming chapter.

While the search for the real Queen Lenne being called off is certainly a factor, that is not the reason why Leene is suddenly destined to die and Marle subsequently disappears.  What happens is that Marle's sudden appearance in the middle ages throws a wrench into Yakra's plans for the Kingdom.  Yakra's plan is to hold the Queen captive for a time while the King (Aldren) makes a complete shambles of things in the attempt to find her.  When the situation in Guardia - specifically Truce Province - reaches its most chaotic point, Yakra intends to release Queen Leene to trigger a bitter succession battle for the throne, which would greatly weaken the Kingdom and make it that much easier for the Mystics to win the war.  When Marle suddenly shows up, that plan is completely thrown out the window.

The surprising twist is that Yakra believes that the Queen's double is actually another Mystic Lord like himself, and is deliberately trying to sabotage his efforts for his own nefarious purposes.  Yakra's greatest fear is that there might be a spy among his followers that would free the real Queen at the same time that the false Queen is in the castle, suddenly exposing the fact that the Mystics can assume human form with their magic, thus putting Yakra himself - in the guise of Chancellor Goran - and his entire operation in great peril.  To prevent this situation from coming about, Yakra decides that Queen Leene has to die to cut his losses.

The very moment when Yakra makes this decision is when Marle disappears.  His intent is enough to effect reality as far as Marle's existence is concerned, partly because Crono and Lucca (and everyone else) are unaware of what has happened.  In fact, the entire future of the year 1000 is effectively erased when Yakra makes his decision.  The reason why Crono and Lucca do not disappear with the obliteration of their timeline is because they are destined (or potentially destined) to figure out what has happened to the real Queen Leene and rescue her before she is killed.  (I don't use the time-traveler's immunity device here.)  But Marle doesn't actually return to existence until the moment when Queen Leene's safety is fully assured.  Crono and Lucca's intent is not enough.  While this brings up questions of causality and intent, and even predestination, I prefer to present things in a way where the choices of our heroes matter, and that they can actually fail if they make a bad choice or are not skilled enough to survive the dangers they face.

The only part of all this where the "entity" might play a role is in the fact that Marle and Leene are genetically identical (Marle is 16 and Leene is 20, but are otherwise the same) despite not being the same person and not being actual twins.  The odds of two members of the same family separated by 400 years looking exactly the same, as Lucca points out, are astronomical; basically impossible.

I don't think any time-traveling plot is 100% solid and unassailable.  Temporal mechanics is really tough stuff.  All I can do is write an interesting yarn and hope that readers like it enough to continue reading.

NeroBz

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 02:36:06 pm »
Good observation about Yakra. Another detail that I see now, by you say, is regarding the other Queen's news are spread in Truce, affecting him decisions. Nevertheless, Marle was alive during all time, retaining memory of a dark place. I still think she don't go up machine.

Eske

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 12:13:49 am »
Well, I've said my peace on this matter in the very old thread I posted before (at least for now) - but I'm glad people are still asking the big questions about events in the Cronoverse.  It seems like, for awhile, that all vanished.  Keep it up guys!  =)

idioticidioms

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2012, 04:23:38 pm »
Here's the thing and they explain it in the game if you pay attention:

If they had rescued Marle without rescuing Queen Leene; which they would have done if Marle had not disappeared; Marle still would have disappeared because he ancestor; Queen Leene; would have been killed or neutralized and it would have prevented her bloodline from existing in the present day.

Therefore, Marle's disappearance at that point is not paradox; but is in fact the world reaching out to keep the balance of the time line in check. The paradox would have been if they had brought Marle back without saving Queen Leene; because then Marle would exist in an impossible set of circumstances.

Without Crono's sword skills matched with Glenn's; Guardia would not have bested Yakra; if they even knew where to begin. Glenn obviously did, but would have been unable to save her on his own. You know he would have tried on his own anyway; given his character.

Also, Lennis makes a good point, too. I mean, who's to say that Leene wouldn't have been saved if Marle had never arrived there. Due to Marle's arrival; it threw Yakra off and he had to react differently than he would have otherwise. It could be said that Queen Leene's demise would have been hastened by it, and considering that Yakra had her in his back room with him when you show up to stomp his ass into the curb; I'd say that's pretty much the truth of it.

Combined all together, it makes perfect sense and sets the precedent for their ability to change events in the world by changing the past; it began their momentum through everything else to finally getting rid of Lavos.

utunnels

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2012, 02:26:36 am »
There may be lots of theories, but you may have noticed some strange or unexplained things.

Where does Marle go after the disappearance.

Why the disappearance happens shortly after Lucca arrives, instead of any other time, fishy.

Marle doesn't simply 'disappears', the effect looks like some kind of magic. And as she explains, she feels she's being torn apart, weird.

idioticidioms

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 02:46:35 am »
There may be lots of theories, but you may have noticed some strange or unexplained things.

Where does Marle go after the disappearance.

Why the disappearance happens shortly after Lucca arrives, instead of any other time, fishy.

Marle doesn't simply 'disappears', the effect looks like some kind of magic. And as she explains, she feels she's being torn apart, weird.

Where do people go when they die? Where do people go if they never even existed at all? What do they retain from not existing if they existed beforehand and then existed again after? What do you feel or experience during such a thing as suddenly not existing in the world? Freud said it best when he said that some times; rarely; things are exactly what they seem. It was the developers honest effort to bring to life an impossible thing; and I thought they did quite well with it.

You say it's fishy that it happens so shortly after Lucca arrives; but it's also shortly after Marle arrives in 600 A.D. and shortly after Crono arrives. In fact, if you recall, you can have a minor conversation with the Yakra-impersonated Chancellor that is kind of odd and he then leaves the Castle. The time it takes for you to find Marle, have your conversation with her and watch her disappear and then go downstairs to find Lucca is about the time it would take Yakra to make his decision to just get rid of Leene altogether and move from Guardia Castle to the Cathedral with you right on his heels.

Eske

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 10:47:58 pm »
His intent is enough to effect reality as far as Marle's existence is concerned, partly because Crono and Lucca (and everyone else) are unaware of what has happened.  In fact, the entire future of the year 1000 is effectively erased when Yakra makes his decision.  The reason why Crono and Lucca do not disappear with the obliteration of their timeline is because they are destined (or potentially destined) to figure out what has happened to the real Queen Leene and rescue her before she is killed.  (I don't use the time-traveler's immunity device here.)  But Marle doesn't actually return to existence until the moment when Queen Leene's safety is fully assured.  Crono and Lucca's intent is not enough.  While this brings up questions of causality and intent, and even predestination, I prefer to present things in a way where the choices of our heroes matter, and that they can actually fail if they make a bad choice or are not skilled enough to survive the dangers they face.


I think the difference between Yakra's intent to kill the Queen and Crono's intent to save the Queen is that Yakra actually knows where she is and is reasonably able to kill her - Crono and Lucca might intend to save the Queen, but they don't know where she is nor do they have the battlepower to do so without Frog's involvement.  So, I could understand if Yakra's intent is the deciding factor for Marle's existence but Crono and Lucca's "let's save her, yay!" attitude isn't enough to change anything until the Queen makes it back safely.

utunnels

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2012, 02:15:25 am »
... but it's also shortly after Marle arrives in 600 A.D. and shortly after Crono arrives...
Yeah you are right. Perhaps the turning point is Yakra's decision, that makes more sense.

EgyLynx

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Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2012, 10:37:38 am »
 :oops:

... soo less i think...