Author Topic: General Tarot Discussion thread  (Read 3368 times)

tushantin

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General Tarot Discussion thread
« on: November 24, 2011, 01:36:54 am »
Rather than flooding everyone's message box, I'm moving the discussion in this thread.

Useful link by Lady Marle: http://www.themysticeye.com/info/tarotcardm.htm
Useful link by Syna: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/
Useful link by yours truly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpRtrkx5dVc

I think the first order of business may be to set a procedure for making decisions on the cards. Do we want to try and reach a consensus? Will it be by vote? Is everyone okay with a few people taking charge of the card selections? Will the artists work via collaboration, or by themselves, or in some combination of the two to try and nail a consistent aesthetic (perhaps at the expense of individual expression)? These are the sort of questions I'm pondering. We have four people, at least, who seem to know a great deal about Tarot; a number of fine artists; and more who have a rightful say in what gets chosen-- I think it would be easiest just to decide on procedure so things go smoothly, even if our procedure ends up being "Angerona makes the call." :)

Another thing we may wish to do is establish our priorities to act as guidelines as we work. For example, xcalibur mentioned that it would be best if we could have a broad representation of the time periods in the cards, and I said I'd prefer it if the Big Seven each got a Trump. The artists will need to think about how much they want to incorporate the traditional symbolism, what the art style and color palate looks like, etc. I hope that makes sense.

I think RW is a fine candidate for doing the card descriptions, though I do like the idea of a template with the Rider-Waite image, Chrono pics, description of symbolic imagery, and a standard definition of the card, perhaps using the wikipedia pages for ease of use; Lady Marle and whoever else can also quote whatever other sources would shed some insight into the topic, and as Tush proposed, we can quote the opinions that were voiced in the initial thread for optimal discussion.

We also may want to put up a thread for discussing the complete deck, particularly since we may want to discuss the Court Cards in relation to the trumps, and because we may want to have some information about the Tarot system as a whole readily available. Since the cards should work together in some cohesive fashion it would be good to have a place to discuss how they fit in relation to each other. The initial thread may service for this, but it's sort of bogged down at the moment with lots of people discussing lots of different things. :)

So in brief, my suggestions are:
- Let's decide on how we make final decisions;
- We may want to come up with guidelines for card selection (representative of all time periods? each of the major characters gets a Trump?) and aesthetics (templates for the back of the card, stylistic considerations, etc.).
- I would personally like to see a card for the Tarot as a whole and a Tarot for each trump. RW can do the descriptions & I'm also proposing that we use a template akin to the one xcalibur described.

Like RW, I'm very, very stoked that this is actually happening :D Collaboration is so exhilarating! Thank you all for your time & attention. I'm sure this will be a great addition to the Chrono fandom when we're done!

tushantin

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2011, 03:09:18 am »
Considering Angerona's inactivity due to unfortunate reasons (I take it her modem died), for now we'll have to stick to unanimous voting -- albeit I'm in favor of the representation decisions being made by those who actually know Tarot more than the average Joe.

So here's my two cents:

- Debate. Debate like there's no tomorrow!
- Voting is an option, though Card representations and listing ought to be handled be handled by those qualified of the in-depth knowledge (such as xcalibur, Lady Marle, Syna, Angerona and RushingWind).
- Artists can work either individually or collaboratively, it doesn't matter; but results do. Depending on the circumstances, each artist can feel free to improve upon another's work if it can help build quality, and the community will decide if the improvement should be kept or discarded (such as it was for the back design). The community's voice and suggestions also matters, because ultimately the cards are for them -- but the artists also have the rights to accept or reject said suggestions based on their talent and *ahem* "Artistic license".
- The character art-style will stick to Chrono's default one, either Toriyama or Yuuki, or perhaps a blend of both. The design-style could either be inspired by Laverinne, Shilin or Yuumei, which fit the aesthetic requirements for a perfect Tarot. (And we REALLY need to get Alcyone in on this! There is no quality where there is no Alcyone)
- The color palette can vary. If there's one thing I despise it's restrictive color palette in multiple art-form. XD

Just a few questions though, since I have an unpainted picture in mind and thus wouldn't go about recklessly assuming: What do you mean by "broad representation of time periods"? What of the "Big Seven got a Trump"? What template did xcalibur describe? I guess that's why we need to index ideas for further discussion.  :cry:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 03:13:19 am by tushantin »

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2011, 09:32:19 pm »
Considering Angerona's inactivity due to unfortunate reasons (I take it her modem died), for now we'll have to stick to unanimous voting -- albeit I'm in favor of the representation decisions being made by those who actually know Tarot more than the average Joe.

So here's my two cents:

- Debate. Debate like there's no tomorrow!
- Voting is an option, though Card representations and listing ought to be handled be handled by those qualified of the in-depth knowledge (such as xcalibur, Lady Marle, Syna, Angerona and RushingWind).
- Artists can work either individually or collaboratively, it doesn't matter; but results do. Depending on the circumstances, each artist can feel free to improve upon another's work if it can help build quality, and the community will decide if the improvement should be kept or discarded (such as it was for the back design). The community's voice and suggestions also matters, because ultimately the cards are for them -- but the artists also have the rights to accept or reject said suggestions based on their talent and *ahem* "Artistic license".
- The character art-style will stick to Chrono's default one, either Toriyama or Yuuki, or perhaps a blend of both. The design-style could either be inspired by Laverinne, Shilin or Yuumei, which fit the aesthetic requirements for a perfect Tarot. (And we REALLY need to get Alcyone in on this! There is no quality where there is no Alcyone)
- The color palette can vary. If there's one thing I despise it's restrictive color palette in multiple art-form. XD

Just a few questions though, since I have an unpainted picture in mind and thus wouldn't go about recklessly assuming: What do you mean by "broad representation of time periods"? What of the "Big Seven got a Trump"? What template did xcalibur describe? I guess that's why we need to index ideas for further discussion.  :cry:


Iím terribly sorry I have disappeared the whole week. A combination of unusual factors in my life (including 3 nights in row with my sleep interrupted by cats, starting a new business, taking a business course, attending to classes, etc.) hasnít leave me enough time to even scratch my back (seriouslyÖ I should start offering magic tablets in exchange). But CT puns aside, I have been trying to follow the development of the project trough the emails as much as time has allowed me but just now Iím having time to catch up with the news.
Regarding the characters and elements for each card: Personally I prefer choosing by voting but I get Tushantinís point. Maybe 2 or 3 well funded options could be offered for the general public to vote for the one they think that fits best.
Regarding the cardsí concept, my knowledge is very limited compared to Synaís, so I havenít wanted to get involved since my vision would be based more in artistic criteria than in the deep knowledge of the cardsí meaning, so Iím saving it for the next step of the project =), when the concepts are already settled.
- Artists can work either individually or collaboratively, it doesn't matter; but results do. Depending on the circumstances, each artist can feel free to improve upon another's work if it can help build quality, and the community will decide if the improvement should be kept or discarded (such as it was for the back design). The community's voice and suggestions also matters, because ultimately the cards are for them -- but the artists also have the rights to accept or reject said suggestions based on their talent and *ahem* "Artistic license".

I totally agree. As long as a standard of quality is respected and that the artistic decisions arenít based on a whim (instead of respecting the cards concepts and meanings), I couldnít agree more.

Personally I wouldnítí stick to Toriyamaís or Yuukiís style (If I had to choose I would stick with Yuukiís since as far as I have experienced Toriyamaís style is one of those thinks you love or you hate (and many people fall into the second category)). I would prefer a style most people felt less passionate about. Personally I would propose making a selection of styles and opening a voting poll.  Maybe a more neutral style like the used on the sketches of the missing pieces guide:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/c/c0/114.jpg

Those art styles are amazing, Tushantin! If we could reach such level of quality the whole project would achieve a new level of impact.
Also, I canít remember who mentioned about adding the numbers to the cards. I would agree with that since those are really important parts of the cards elements.

Manly man had a similar idea. He mentioned, "that you find a way to incorporate the actual Arcana itself into the card. For your example, have something actually with the sun in it, such as Lucca in the pose she makes to cast Flare, only instead of the waves of fire behind her, it's... well, a picture of the sun."
I totally agree. The illustrations should involve the symbolic elements of the cards, even if those are stylized, reinterpreted or deconstructed. A random pic of the character (s) wonít be enough.
 

I think the first order of business may be to set a procedure for making decisions on the cards. Do we want to try and reach a consensus? Will it be by vote? Is everyone okay with a few people taking charge of the card selections? Will the artists work via collaboration, or by themselves, or in some combination of the two to try and nail a consistent aesthetic (perhaps at the expense of individual expression)? These are the sort of questions I'm pondering. We have four people, at least, who seem to know a great deal about Tarot; a number of fine artists; and more who have a rightful say in what gets chosen-- I think it would be easiest just to decide on procedure so things go smoothly, even if our procedure ends up being "Angerona makes the call." :)

While Iím totally for the individual expression, I firmly believe the deck needs to have a certain level of cohesion. Since different artist will be participating it can be expected to have the visual problem solved on the same way on every card (and I donít want to kill an artistís individuality and personal language) but some specific criteria has to be followed.

I will try to be as active as time allows (Iím planning to log in at least a couple times per week), but donít let my absence stop you from developing this (especially since there isnít much I can contribute with during this stage of the project).

Syna

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 01:42:57 am »
Just a few questions though, since I have an unpainted picture in mind and thus wouldn't go about recklessly assuming: What do you mean by "broad representation of time periods"? What of the "Big Seven got a Trump"? What template did xcalibur describe? I guess that's why we need to index ideas for further discussion.  :cry:

xcalibur suggested that each time period get balanced representation in the deck, where possible. For instance, he promoted Mother Brain as the Hierophant based on a lack of representation of the 2300 AD in the Major Arcana, in addition to her appropriateness to the card's meaning.

"The Big Seven" are each of the playable characters in CT. My personal preference is that they each get a Trump card (aka Major Arcana card).

The template was (correct me if I'm wrong) for each individual card's thread. For instance, the Fool would have an image of the Rider-Waite* Fool card, a description of the meaning and the symbolism in the card's imagery, and relevant Chrono artwork for reference.

*For those who may be confused, Rider-Waite is considered the "standard" tarot deck upon which the others are referenced, simply because Rider's changes profoundly influenced the Tarot of English-speaking countries.

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 06:36:08 am »
time to break my level ** and enter guardian status.

Quote
xcalibur suggested that each time period get balanced representation in the deck, where possible. For instance, he promoted Mother Brain as the Hierophant based on a lack of representation of the 2300 AD in the Major Arcana, in addition to her appropriateness to the card's meaning.

indeed. as in other areas, we'll have to balance principle and expediency - we're merging two independent systems, which is never simple. I was thinking that Dreamstone and the Chrono Trigger could be set in prehistory and the future respectively, which would help.

Quote
"The Big Seven" are each of the playable characters in CT. My personal preference is that they each get a Trump card (aka Major Arcana card).

this was your idea, and it would be great. most have fit in smoothly, the only real problem is the Guru issue. As I mentioned in the discussion thread, I like the idea of being consistent and complete - all 3 gurus, not just 2; all 7 party members, not 5 or 6.

Quote
The template was (correct me if I'm wrong) for each individual card's thread. For instance, the Fool would have an image of the Rider-Waite* Fool card, a description of the meaning and the symbolism in the card's imagery, and relevant Chrono artwork for reference.

*For those who may be confused, Rider-Waite is considered the "standard" tarot deck upon which the others are referenced, simply because Rider's changes profoundly influenced the Tarot of English-speaking countries.

yes, that was my idea.

in the next post, I'll put the whole index of what we've got and outstanding issues. I'll also post it in the discussion thread. (let me know if it belongs in here).

also, while I'm not a graphic artist, I do have mental images of how the cards could look. I'll be sure to describe my ideas in the threads, and if necessary do simple drawings to illustrate.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:13:48 am by xcalibur »

xcalibur

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 07:10:50 am »
MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono/the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler OR Belthasar
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Azala OR Queen Leene
Emperor - King Guardia
Hierophant - Mother Brain OR Belthasar
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit - Belthasar OR Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Gaspar AND/OR Robo
Death - Lavos OR the Chrono Trigger<........
Temperance - Melchior                                          |
Devil - Magus                                                            |
Tower - Mammon Machine                                   |
Star - Marle w/ Pendant                                         |
Moon - Black Omen OR Dreamstone                 |
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                       |
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger OR Lavos<..
World - Nu/Entity

where there are two different possibilities, I put OR in bold. where OR is bold, underlined, and italicized, it relates to the whole Guru issue (I'll address that next). I attempted to draw an arrow between Death and Judgement, since a choice on one sets the choice for the other.

The Guru issue is the conflict between fitting the 3 Gurus and the 7 party members. Almost everything fits, but then we have to place Robo. It seems that Hanged Man is most applicable, but Gaspar is there. We could set Robo there, bump Gaspar to Hermit (since that also kinda fits), then move Belthasar in turn to Hierophant, Magician, or elsewhere.
An unorthodox alternative to this would be to split the Hanged Man card between Gaspar/Robo. Or make it Belthasar/Robo - this might be easier to pull off, at a moderate cost to proper choice.

also, we had some issues with Azala. her role doesn't seem to fit the nurturing Empress too well. But a female Emperor would also be an ill fit. She may have to be assigned to the court, although the King and Queen of Guardia aren't totally ideal for Empress and Emperor.


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

no issues here, everything fits.


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles-
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Kino
Page of Cups- Janus

This is still open to interpretation, but this is as far as I was able to take it. possible queens I know of are Queen Zeal, Azala, and Cronos Mom. also Queen Leene and Mother Brain, if they're not Trumps.


time periods - I favor adequate representation of the major eras of the game in the selections. naturally there are limitations, such as the uneven distribution of important personalities throughout time. the Major Arcana have a lot of the present, since 3 of the main characters are from there. The Court Cards are dominated by 600 ad. but as long as no one is neglected, it should be fine.

good/evil - I also want to have a balanced mix between good and bad. This isn't too much of a problem in the Trumps, except that it leads me to favor Dreamstone over Black Omen for Moon. frequently maligned tarot cards should have something less negative. However, I may have to sacrifice that in the case of Death - Lavos.
This is more of an issue in the court cards. I'm aiming for balance in the 4 court cards for each suit. Naturally, Cups is going to lean towards positive, but assigning Janus as the page helps balance that. Gato also helps balance Pentacles, and if the Queen is positive then that will be fine. Even if 3 of the swords are negative, Masa&Mune as king can balance that imo.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:26:44 am by xcalibur »

tushantin

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 07:42:22 am »
I'd like to argue that Masa and Mune can't be King of Swords, not because they don't fit the specific Tarot, but because of their attributes themselves.

Most particularly because they aren't "people" like human or mystics, but actually sentient swords, or "Enchanted swords" (aka, Djinn within equipment). While there's nothing wrong with personifying elements, Masamune does not act on its own accord.

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 08:17:13 am »
I'd like to argue that Masa and Mune can't be King of Swords, not because they don't fit the specific Tarot, but because of their attributes themselves.

Most particularly because they aren't "people" like human or mystics, but actually sentient swords, or "Enchanted swords" (aka, Djinn within equipment). While there's nothing wrong with personifying elements, Masamune does not act on its own accord.

they are dream species. and they do seem to have some capacity for action: they battle the party for the right to wield them, they interact with you in zeal palace and ocean palace, and they release more power after frogs sidequest. They seem to be personalities to the extent that they can be a joint King of Swords. And my choice is definitely Masa & Mune, not the Masamune, since an object wouldn't work as King.

tushantin

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2011, 04:43:17 pm »
Ah, well.  :)

They are dream species, but because they can easily connect to a person's heart, I always considered them to be Thoughtforms. Hence the "battle before acquire" and the sort.

But if folks are fine with it, I guess it couldn't hurt. They do have identities, so yeah.

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 01:17:37 am »
Ah, well.  :)

They are dream species, but because they can easily connect to a person's heart, I always considered them to be Thoughtforms. Hence the "battle before acquire" and the sort.

But if folks are fine with it, I guess it couldn't hurt. They do have identities, so yeah.

it's alright, questions and debate are encouraged. Ideally, we should consider everything with a wide variety of input before finalizing.

I appreciate the credit I've gotten for knowing about Tarot. but I'd also like to point out that my knowledge of Chrono Trigger is just as useful here.

also, thanks for that thoughtform link.

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 05:01:09 am »
Just to inform that I may not be available for discussion or art until Christmas, because some work requires my attention. I'll still be around occasionally. Feel free to commence with ideas, concepts and art.

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 04:28:14 pm »
I need to take time to read this thread then I'll give my reply :D

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 07:54:10 pm »
So just to put a timeframe on our progress, I suggest we wait for Lady Marle's reply to the choices we've come up with so far, and then proceed with whichever cards seem set in stone after that.

I'm still thinking about the Guru & Empress issues and doing a bit of research where I get the chance, and mostly I'm still undecided. After some consideration, though, I think I am definitely going to endorse Queen Leene as the Empress. She is really the only major character I can think of that fits the card, though maybe Lady Marle will have a new insight for us.

If we can get past the gender issue, I think Azala makes an appropriate Emperor. However, I wouldn't want to strain fans' belief overmuch-- she always struck me as an androgynous character, but that is a very subjective assessment. What do you guys think?

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 09:53:57 pm »
So just to put a timeframe on our progress, I suggest we wait for Lady Marle's reply to the choices we've come up with so far, and then proceed with whichever cards seem set in stone after that.

I'm still thinking about the Guru & Empress issues and doing a bit of research where I get the chance, and mostly I'm still undecided. After some consideration, though, I think I am definitely going to endorse Queen Leene as the Empress. She is really the only major character I can think of that fits the card, though maybe Lady Marle will have a new insight for us.

If we can get past the gender issue, I think Azala makes an appropriate Emperor. However, I wouldn't want to strain fans' belief overmuch-- she always struck me as an androgynous character, but that is a very subjective assessment. What do you guys think?

Indeed.

We might just have to select Azala as Emperor and make a sacrifice on the gender issue. While King Guardia could fit, with his rule over a stable kingdom (chrono cross notwithstanding), he's just not an imposing or dominant presence. time period representation favors Azala. and I agree that Azala did not seem overtly feminine.

the biggest problem is that CT fans will jump on it like OMG you didn't know Azala is female? ROFLZORZ, etc.

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Re: General Tarot Discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 08:17:50 pm »
Okay! Here's my two cents:

Fool - Norstein Bekkler with a cat
Magician - Prophet in the Zeal Throne Room, displaying his power to Queen Zeal and the Court
High Priestess - Schala, sitting on a throne in an ornate dress and robes.
Empress - Queen Leene
Emperor - King Guardia XXXIII
Hierophant -Belthasar
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit -Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Robo in Fiona's Shrine
Death - Lavos, with Crono's soul floating before it.
Temperance - Melchior                                     
Devil - Magus                                                         
Tower - Zeal falling Mammon Machine in the background                           
Star - Marle w/ Pendant                                     
Moon - Black Omen               
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                     
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - The World... hello... the planet itself was a part of the game!

ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune 
Queen of Swords- Queen Zeal
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Lara, Lucca's mom or Gina, Crono's mom Why? Because the Queen of Wands is a woman, fondness of nature or of the home, attraction, command, someone who is well liked or honorable
Knight of Wands- Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Azala
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Princess Nadia
Knight of Cups- Kino
Page of Cups- Janus