Doppelgangers in the Black Omen

[GrayLensman]

At some point in the future, the forums will be reorganized and those posts will be deleted.  In the mean time, we want people to see that they were moderated and why.

[SolidSnake_8608]

Lavos probably had them for the sole purpose of studying them, and since he controlled the planets DNA, it would be easy for him to clone them. As for Magus not being there, SE probably didn't put him in there because technically, you don't have to get him on your team, they probably wanted to hide the fact that you can recruit him as much as possible, so they didn't include him at all.

[nightmare975]

So I don't anger the Mod Gods I will stay on-topic.

But for what reason would he want to study them? Find their weaknesses? Just for fun? Scientific Reasoning? Just because he can? Or all of the above?

[Zaperking]

Lavos probably had them for the sole purpose of studying them, and since he controlled the planets DNA, it would be easy for him to clone them. As for Magus not being there, SE probably didn't put him in there because technically, you don't have to get him on your team, they probably wanted to hide the fact that you can recruit him as much as possible, so they didn't include him at all.

How can Lavos clone them when he's sleeping..... And the Ocean Palace isn't his. It's Queen Zeals palace to steal energy from Lavos.

Another point to make them holograms would prove that they are intruders, that's why Magus isn't there because he's the Prophet. And we only find that out later anyway.

[Kazuki]

I still really don't buy the "Want to study them," banter. I always had the image that Lavos, if he was even aware that they were somewhat of a threat, didn't take them seriously enough to bother studying. I would waste my breath studying a group of misfits if I had to concentrate of DNA gathering and spawning etc.

[Exodus]

The game implies heavily that Lavos willingly gives his energy away.

[Lord J Esq]

The game implies heavily that Lavos willingly gives his energy away.

I think that's a misinterpretation. Lavos doesn't give anything away. Lavos emanates energy like an erupting volcano; this is its nature. Lavos' power can be harnessed by those who are savvy enough to find a way to exploit that power, but are not quite savvy enough to be aware of the utter likelihood of getting burned.

[Exodus]

I doubt Lavos would have allowed Queen Zeal that close if he did not have something planned.

[Lord J Esq]

I doubt Lavos would have allowed Queen Zeal that close if he did not have something planned.

You're presuming that Lavos has a sentient will to guide its behavior. I guess we disagree on the certainty of that point. If you look at the events of the game, it seems much more likely that Lavos simply does not or cannot willfully control its powerful emanations in a purposeful manner. Lavos therefore would be more a force of destruction than a scheming villain.

[Exodus]

Considering his sentient-like tendencies, and that the game plays him off as sentient, yes.

I believe that he is sentient.

[Lord J Esq]

Considering his sentient-like tendencies, and that the game plays him off as sentient, yes.

How would you justify that? I think the game does precisely the opposite. I even wrote about it in another thread:

Lavos Is Not Sentient

1. Back in the day Square sure did love to personify oblivion in the form of the Final Boss, and Lavos may simply be one of their more colorful attempts at this.

2. If you look at Schala’s speech at the end of Chrono Cross, she goes on about this idea of a planet being a living egg and its life forms comprising a myriad of “spermatozoa,” any one of whom could inseminate the planet and create a new universe. (No comment) Since Lavos is the exact opposite, slowly killing the planet off and corrupting its life forms, that could provide a conjectural bit of support for the idea that Lavos is not a sentient entity who has its own sense of purpose.

3. Some of Lavos’ actions were counterproductive, even plain stupid. But if you look at Lavos as a personification of oblivion rather than an evil mastermind, it all makes a lot more sense. Poke Lavos with a stick, as happened in 12,000 B.C. and 600 A.D., and it Unleashes the Dragon on yo ass. But otherwise it doesn’t actively do anything at all...it just gobbles up DNA (don’t ask me how that works) and seems to emanate vibes of sadness and anger that take root in sentient people’s minds.

4. Lavos has no dialogue, just a primal screech. This may not seem important, but in a space-limited RPG, everything counts. I searched the CT script for every mention of “Lavos” and found absolutely no attributions of character, only continuous references to Lavos’ power, might, immortality, and sleep. Queen Zeal mentions Lavos’ “dreams,” but then corrects herself to “eternal nightmare.” She later says that “At last, Lavos awakens!” Lucca calls Lavos’ lifecycle the “ultimate in evolution,” but in context it isn’t persuasive to me that evolution is meant to be synonymous with sentience. I then checked the Chrono Cross script, and again found no attributions to Lavos of any of the faculties of reason. Lucca mentions Lavos’ “hatred and sadness,” but these are construed as raw emotions without rational thought behind them, and it is actually Schala who devises the grand notion to destroy existence. Nowhere in these two games is any sentient, reasoned characteristic imputed to Lavos.

What say you, Exodus?

[Exodus]

I say you I have better things to do than argue the sentience of a video game character.

[Lord J Esq]

I say you I have better things to do than argue the sentience of a video game character.

Now that's an ineloquent admission of defeat if ever I heard one. What do you think the Compendium is all about? And aren't you in charge of an entire fangame? =P

The Analysis forums are to help us arrive at a better understanding of the intricacies of these outstanding Chrono games. The Black Omen doppelgangers are of great interest to me, and because the dubious sentience of Lavos enters into that equation here, I am interested in pointing out that your interpretations may be inaccurate.

[nightmare975]

I think the Black Omen is more of Lavos' fortress than Queen Zeal's.

[Radical_Dreamer]

I think the Black Omen is more of Lavos' fortress than Queen Zeal's.

Why? She commisioned it, and lives there once it is completed. Lavos remains burried beneath the Earth, manipulating the evolution of life on the planet.