Author Topic: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made  (Read 3045 times)

Jormungand

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Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« on: February 17, 2011, 11:17:16 pm »
Likely some of you have heard about this. To summarize briefly, the newly elected governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker (R), put into motion a bill specifically targeting union member rights. He deliberately set a short timeframe (one week), to push the bill through so that little deliberation could be made over it. Essentially, the bill seeks to eliminate collective bargaining agreements for public sector employees. The bill was approved last night.

On Tuesday, massive crowds assembled at our state's capitol building in Madison to denounce Walker and his attack on state employees. The crowds remained throughout the day and into the night. On Wednesday, a still larger crowd descended upon the capitol. Today, an even larger crowd took to the downtown area to protest. Tomorrow will be the same.

A large part of those assembled have been teachers. Due to the significant called-in absences of teachers, all Madison public schools were closed on Wednesday, today, and will again be closed tomorrow.

Walker's proposal was expected to be deliberated upon and finalized this morning at the capitol building. However, due to the impassioned protests and hundreds of citizens and public workers speaking directly to the legislature, an unprecedented move was made: Wisconsin's Democrat senators fled the capitol building, and have long since crossed state lines into Illinois.

Of the Republican-controlled senate, only 19 Republican senators remain. A "quorum" of 20 is required for the proposal to be open to deliberation. Thus, by law, the proposal cannot go into action. Were the Democrat senators to remain, the majority Republican senate would have easily passed the proposal. However, no such action can be taken until the quorum of 20 senators is satisfied.

State police and national guardsmen were deployed to apprehend the fleeing senators to return them to the capitol--at gunpoint if necessary. The senators safely made it past state lines, and thus cannot be lawfully pursued.

It is expected they will not return until Walker's proposal is either significantly altered or altogether scrapped.

The proposal was made allegedly as an effort to balance Wisconsin's budget, now in a deficit of $137 million. However, the proposal is targeted specifically at union workers, seeking to eliminate all collective bargaining. This means the complete loss of benefits such as health care and retirement. This effectively undoes decades of union rights and bargaining, which has successfully allowed teachers and other state workers to have large shares of their insurance and retirement paid off. These benefits are essential as they off-set the obscenely low salaries of state workers, especially teachers.

Walker is, in fact, a criminal. Since being elected, his payouts to business-owners that supported his campaign robbed Wisconsin of more money than his tyrannical proposal could possibly recuperate by gouging the middle class.

Walker specifically stated that he will not negotiate with unions. He will pay the price. Not only will he likely be recalled after 366 days in office, but until he agrees to negotiate, his ridiculous proposal may not be put into effect.

I cannot understate the tumultuous climate here in Wisconsin right now. Especially in Madison, where I work as an assistant and soon-to-be teacher in an elementary school.

There are three very unethical and despicable acts perpetrated by Walker and the Republicans that must be brought to light:

1. Walker's million-dollar payouts to campaign-supporters while simultaneously declaring he wants to balance the budget.
2. During the legislative hearings, hundreds showed up to speak. After a certain number had spoken, Republicans stopped allowing people to speak their thoughts, claiming that most of what they heard were "just stories". This outright disrespect for democracy is sickening, and the Republicans must be held accountable for their unethical treatment of the democratic process.
3. Republicans called upon police and national guardsmen to track down the fleeing senators. Imagine if the senators were apprehended and brought back to the capitol at gunpoint and forced to deliberate the proposal. That would've have repercussions more widely-reaching than Wisconsin. Then again, this whole situation will likely be nationally examined closely in the coming weeks.

For more information, you can pretty much just google "Wisconsin" and you're likely to find an article about this. It's probably the most severe social climate I've ever personally been involved in, and it has very serious implications not only for my future as a teacher, but the future of all children who go to school in Wisconsin. We are (especially in Madison) a traditionally liberal and progressive state, and I'm sure hearing that makes you wonder how Walker got elected in the first place. I don't know, but I sure didn't vote for him. Wisconsin's citizens are now realizing the seriousness of this anti-middle class agenda, if they didn't already.

I want to end this post by stating my own political alignment: none. I don't like the two-party system, and I think it's going to destroy our country. While I believe the Democratic senators are essentially heroes for foiling Walker's plans, as are the 25,000+ protesters, it's frightening that we ever got to this point in the first place. Even with my rights as a teacher so threatened, I know it's my calling, and it's what I'm going to do. As a teacher, I hope to keep my students as far removed from the broken political machinations of this country as possible. I want them to grow up to change this country, bring down the party system, and establish a governmental model that is sustainable and truly representative of its citizens. The current model merely caters to two distinct parties, both which are plagued by agendas of the rich. I want my students to know they don't have to accept this, and can reject it wholesale. And my influence as a teacher will be far stronger than that of any politician; and those same politicians are powerless to stop me. They made attempt to degrade or even minimize the conditions of my profession, but for every concession they are forced to make in the face of overwhelming protest, my cause is enabled and empowered. Only so much tyranny will be tolerated by the people.

FaustWolf

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 06:33:15 am »
Jormungand, thanks for the detailed summary of what's going on. Figures I'd finally satisfy my curiosity about it at a videogame forum; saw a live video feed covering the story on CNN earlier today but didn't have much time to do anything more than stare for a second, say "huh, that doesn't look like Egypt..." and then move on. Really cool that the Senators went so far as to flee the State to stop this.

Syna

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 04:54:43 pm »
Yes, the detailed summary/analysis is very helpful. I'm not a news hound, so I was missing a number of key details.

I'm glad to see teachers standing up for themselves. I know that in Texas, at least, the budget cuts are making it more and more brutal to be a teacher of any stripe, and it's clear the same is happening elsewhere. It's incredible that education seems to be the first place people go to enforce cuts, but hardly surprising...

Lord J Esq

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 05:19:45 pm »
I want to end this post by stating my own political alignment: none.

How could you cover such an important topic, and do so with such interest, and then fall back on rubbish like this? Do you know unions got created in the first place? Do you know what politics even is?

Jormungand

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 06:17:54 pm »
I want to end this post by stating my own political alignment: none.
How could you cover such an important topic, and do so with such interest, and then fall back on rubbish like this? Do you know unions got created in the first place? Do you know what politics even is?
In the 2008 presidential election, I voted for Ron Paul. He technically ran as a Republican before officially dropping out (I wrote him in anyway). Yet, I know enough about Republican values to know I'm not that; and anything called "conservative" is basically evil. What am I supposed to call myself? Federalist, I guess?

I made that statement because otherwise my position might come off as staunchly anti-republican, which isn't necessarily true. I'm anti-bipartisan; I don't like the two-party system, and therefore it doesn't feel right to choose either side as representative of my values. Because neither is.

I feel the same way about religion. In our nation it's treated like it should be something listed on our driver's license; as if it's apart of us from birth. Of course, it isn't, so I am without any religious alignment. The same is true for political parties; I don't consider any of them to represent me. So, should I have to choose?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 06:19:42 pm by Jormungand »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 06:01:11 am »
I want to end this post by stating my own political alignment: none.
How could you cover such an important topic, and do so with such interest, and then fall back on rubbish like this? Do you know unions got created in the first place? Do you know what politics even is?
In the 2008 presidential election, I voted for Ron Paul. He technically ran as a Republican before officially dropping out (I wrote him in anyway). Yet, I know enough about Republican values to know I'm not that; and anything called "conservative" is basically evil. What am I supposed to call myself? Federalist, I guess?

I made that statement because otherwise my position might come off as staunchly anti-republican, which isn't necessarily true. I'm anti-bipartisan; I don't like the two-party system, and therefore it doesn't feel right to choose either side as representative of my values. Because neither is.

Fair enough. For your future benefit, "no political alignment" will get you in trouble. Only fools, little children, and representatives acting on behalf of another individual or organization can get away with eschewing politics, as to do so otherwise is an act of negligence in citizenship under the democratic model. Every form of government places a burden upon the public; in democracy that burden is to engage in civics. The "demo" in "democracy" includes you; you have a responsibility to be politically engaged, which can't help but lead to an alignment.

Now, political alignment is not the same thing as party affiliation. That's where I misunderstood you. It was your phrasing that was inaccurate, not your actual alignment. If you are anti-bipartisan, that's fine. You can legitimately, albeit perhaps not responsibly, choose not to ally with either major party. I jumped on you because you had identified yourself as one of those people who thinks there is no difference between the Democratic and Republican, which was too great an irony to bear given that you created this topic which highlights in stark detail some of the key differences between the two parties. But you're not such a person, and so I stand corrected.

"Federalist" works just fine as a label to the extent it is representative of your alignment. But if you voted Ron Paul, then either that label isn't correct or you don't actually know much about Ron Paul. He is the modern equivalent of an anti-federalist who supports the dilution of the powers of the federal government, to a degree of extremeness that makes him more radical than most other Republicans--and he is a Republican, make no mistake, currently representing TX-14 in the U.S. House of Representatives.

I feel the same way about religion. In our nation it's treated like it should be something listed on our driver's license; as if it's apart of us from birth. Of course, it isn't, so I am without any religious alignment. The same is true for political parties; I don't consider any of them to represent me. So, should I have to choose?

You don't have to tell other people what your alignment is. Remember, I took issue with your earlier post because you did state an alignment, and, as phrased, it was an unacceptable statement. If you had said you don't care to talk politics here, then that's quite a different matter and, although perhaps disappointing, is perfectly acceptable. (Although, by creating topics like this, you forfeit your privilege to discretion to some extent.)

The same goes for religious discussion.

Lance VII

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 10:12:58 am »
Just ran a search on it. The first came that came to mind is what Fox News would spew about this. Turns out, they may have bitten off more than they can chew.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-viral-video-fox-news-heckled-wisconsin,0,6431889.htmlstory

Jormungand

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 10:47:42 pm »
Now, political alignment is not the same thing as party affiliation. That's where I misunderstood you. It was your phrasing that was inaccurate, not your actual alignment.
You're right, that was inaccurate. I'll be more careful in the future.

Quote
"Federalist" works just fine as a label to the extent it is representative of your alignment. But if you voted Ron Paul, then either that label isn't correct or you don't actually know much about Ron Paul. He is the modern equivalent of an anti-federalist who supports the dilution of the powers of the federal government...
During his short "campaign", and since then, after viewing hours of interviews it became clear to me that his intent was to return legal power over controversial issues, spending, etc. in the hands of the state rather than national government. To my understanding, federalism is about greater state government and less national government. If I am way off base, don't feel obliged to correct me; just tell me I need to do my homework and I will take your word for it.

Quote
(Although, by creating topics like this, you forfeit your privilege to discretion to some extent.)
Yes, I did forfeit that privilege, so you were right to call me out. I'm not at all uncomfortable with sharing my views, but my view is "I don't like the way things work right now". To me that always felt like having no political alignment, but in reality, yes, I suppose it is an alignment.

Emotions are running high these last couple of weeks. Just going to copy/paste from a post I made elsewhere:

Well, Walker ordered the wi-fi [around the Capitol building] blocked. And then he was forced have it turned it back on. Made up some BS story about a new rule saying all new websites had to be greenlighted by the new administration or something.

Anyway, a summary of the last few days:

-Walker's budget has a deadline of Friday to be passed

-The new budget cannot be passed without the 14 democratic senators

-The democratic senators are still in Illinois, and aren't coming back any time soon

-Walker and his cronies plotted to withhold paychecks from being deposited into the dem. senators accounts until they come back

-In return, the dem. senators collectively and figuratively gave him the finger and still aren't coming back

-Walker and co. are looking into measures to take people who support the senators financially to court

-Walker got prank called by a reporter claiming to be a Koch brother (one of, if not the largest, financial supporters of Walker's campaign); and Walker actually believed it, having a conversation that revealed Walker really wants to destroy unions more than anything because apparently that's all republicans care about anymore (seems to be a nationwide plot)--and yes this conversation was recorded and yes you can easily find it or reports about it online. During the conversation he also mentions considering hiring protesters to "support" him at the Capitol.

-The republican senators can take the union-busting amendment out of the budget bill and slip it into a non-budget bill, which means they can vote on it without the democratic senators present.

-Walker will be threatening people in the public sector with "risk of termination" notices which basically say they will be fired if his budget bill doesn't pass (seems like a real great guy, right?)

I'm sure I've missed something. Again, there's ample national coverage on this stuff if you're interested in knowing more. It has been a very stressful and emotional week for many of us, especially teachers. I can say that if collective bargaining rights are effectively terminated, Wisconsin's public school teachers (among others) are very likely to strike, and then our state will be royally screwed.

Kara Kazeneko

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 12:49:05 am »
As a Republican myself, I find this stuff sickening. I don't like discussing politics at all (especially since most people I ever talk to either act like total morons, be assholes to me over my beliefs, quote stuff that's partially untrue and don't give an informed opinion, or all of that combined). But no matter what party that you side with, this stuff is just... unbelievable.

Hoping and praying that this nightmare gets resolved without major conflict, etc.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 12:51:56 am by Kara Kazeneko »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 01:08:49 am »
(@ Jormungand)

Ah, so you live in Wisconsin. That makes it more personal. Yeah, the whole nation is looking on with contempt at the Wisconsin government's efforts to demolish public unions. A USA Today / Gallup poll released yesterday shows the American public opposed 61 percent to 33 percent on the question of "Would you favor or oppose a law in your state taking away some collective bargaining rights of most public unions, including the state teachers union?"

Now, see, that's a misleading question because it only gives one example of a public union and teachers happen to be some of the most popular government workers. On the other hand, it's also an inaccurate question because the WI law would take away all collective bargaining rights except the right to bargain on wages, not "some" rights. These two flaws in the poll will run opinion in opposite directions, so, while we can't take the poll as truly reflective of public sentiment, we can still look at the massive gap and conclude that it's likely that more Americans oppose than support the Republicans' effort.

That's how it goes with Republicans. They come up with an idea; the public is roundly against it; they stand their ground and put out the talking points on Fox News and right-wing radio, and the public slowly loses its opposition because of all the deceptive framing. That's what happened with the healthcare legislation debate in 2009 and 2010. "Death panels," "government takeover," "socialized medicine," and what have you.

It's one of the ironies in American politics that more people agree with the Democrats than the Republicans, but more people vote for the Republicans than the Democrats. It speaks to the effectiveness and deceptiveness of the right-wing noise machine, and to the unreliability of the left-wing voter base. You can do your part in the future by always voting. I won't even say you should always vote for the Democrat. Getting yourself informed, and then voting intelligent, is enough. Usually, that will lead you to the Democrat by default. (Not always; I voted for Republican Sam Reed for WA Secretary of State in 2008.)

I've long contemplated the advantages and disadvantages of a two-party system and a multi-party system. It's not as clear-cut as I used to think. (I used to be, like you, against the two-party system and in favor of a multi-party one.) One big thing going for a multi-party system is that it would likely deny a strong voice to fringe lunatics like the Tea Party people who are now vying for control of the entire GOP, which would give the Tea Party massively disproportionate influence over federal politics. The other big thing going for a multi-party system is that it would give more voice to fringe parties in general. That includes the good, like democratic socialists, and the bad, like the constitutionalists. A left-wing coalition majority in Congress rather than a Democratic majority would give a stronger voice to left-wing fringe groups, who, although I rarely fully agree with them, almost always agree with me on relevant policy positions. And, with the Republican Party already so far to the right, a move to a multi-party system would not give any more power to the corresponding right-wing fringe.

The big thing working against a multi-party system, and in favor of a two-party one, is that coalitions will deadlock and gridlock on a regular basis. A single party can enforce unity to a much stronger extent than a coalition with multiple poles of authority. Nobody seems to notice just how much major legislation the Democratic House of Representatives under Nancy Pelosi passed in the 111th Congress. Not much of that legislation became law, because the Democratic Senate was rarely able to overcome Republican filibusters. We got a health bill with a public option, which ended up not being in the final law. We got a climate change bill. We got all sorts of goodies that never made it into law. That would never have happened under a left-wing coalition. Unity hierarchies get results. The federal government already has a built-in institution to put the "deliberative" brakes on rapid legislative progress; we call that institution the Senate. A multi-party Congress would put another brake on legislative progress, and we would get even less shit done than we presently do.

For me, that's a very powerful dissuasion from supporting a multi-party system in America. Add in the facts that our executive is presidential rather than ministerial, that our national organization is federal rather than fully centralized, and that our legislature is congressional rather than parliamentarian, and I foresee major problems with a multi-party system working in this country. Indeed, the two-party system we have is probably more a path of least resistance than a show of force by the political party apparati.

It's also worth noting that, because the right-wing core is the largest single voter bloc in this country, a multi-party system would tend to favor conservatives more often than liberals. Liberals already have more problems agreeing with one another than conservatives do amongst themselves, due to the disparities of ideological space between "liberals" and "conservatives" in America. (A simpler way to put it is that liberals occupy about 80 - 90 percent of all ideological space, and thus 8 or 9 out of every 10 plausible political positions would qualify as "liberal" in our political culture. I picked those numbers out of thin air rather than referencing them, but the qualitative idea that most ideas will be considered liberal in this country is true, and that's a big part of why liberals have such a harder time coming to a consensus.) Thus, the morning after an election you're going to have about 25 percent of the country, and thus a corresponding (but not necessarily identical) ratio of newly elected officials, instantly ready to support the most right-wing government they can put together. (And that 25 percent number is accurate.) Any prospective liberal coalition would not only have to overcome competing liberal factions and pull in 51 percent or more of elected officials to dominate the Congress; it would also have to start from only about 75 percent of available officials. The corresponding core of liberals who would never join a conservative coalition is, in our two-party system, less than 15 percent. Perhaps under a multi-party system it would be higher.

Incidentally, these same multi-pole politics play out within each of the two parties when it comes time to form a party's leadership ahead of a new session of Congress. It's not as if intraparty tensions do not exist. With 310 million people in the country and 535 voting representatives and senators, we couldn't expect it to be any other way.

At any rate, if I may, I think our national problem is not so much that we're mired under a two-party system, as that we're mired under an ill-informed and apathetic electorate. If more people voted, and voted Democratic, we could mold the Democratic Party into something more effective than it is, and have a working majority to boot. I disagree with Democrats all too often, but I also recognize that it's only some Democrats with whom I have those disagreements, and they can be voted out and replaced with other Democrats. Unlike the modern Republican Party, the modern Democratic Party is not monolithic and can be tweaked in the direction of the voters' will.

Thought

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2011, 01:48:24 pm »
An update - The Assembly apparently passes the bill: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

However, I am looking for better news sources since this one seems to be lacking something. It says that the Assembly Democrats had been filibustering the process but that the Republicans pushed through a vote. If this was a true filibuster, then it seems like that "vote" (which seems to have been clearly premeditated, as it was surprising enough that not all the Democrats had a chance to respond, while it doesn't seem the Republicans had a similar problem) could not have been brought about with due procedures. More information on what actually happened would be good.

Jormungand

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 08:33:24 pm »
An update - The Assembly apparently passes the bill: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

However, I am looking for better news sources since this one seems to be lacking something. It says that the Assembly Democrats had been filibustering the process but that the Republicans pushed through a vote. If this was a true filibuster, then it seems like that "vote" (which seems to have been clearly premeditated, as it was surprising enough that not all the Democrats had a chance to respond, while it doesn't seem the Republicans had a similar problem) could not have been brought about with due procedures. More information on what actually happened would be good.
Well, it's difficult to explain. Basically, after hours of debate over amendments to the bill well, around 1 AM this morning the majority leader called a surprise vote on the bill and it was passed within seconds. It took most by surprise, hence why so many votes didn't even make it in. It was intentional, and probably illegal. There will be more to say on the issue once they figure it out.

Furthermore, the bill isn't final till the senate votes on it. And they can't without the 14 democratic senators who are still out-of-state.

Jormungand

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Thought

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 10:02:35 pm »
Thing is, Jorm, the filibusters I am familiar with can't be magically ended by a surprise vote. There has to be a move to table discussion and to progress to the final vote. The filibusters I am familiar with aren't done so with the indulgence of those they are aimed against. Thus, it seems that either the news coverage ill-defined what was going on (calling something a filibuster which was not), the processes there are different than I am familiar with, or the ending of the filibuster was most illegal.

Anywho, that aside: http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument

GenesisOne

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Re: Today in Wisconsin, history is being made
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2011, 05:43:00 pm »

Found this link and just wanted to know what people thought of it.

http://commentarama.blogspot.com/2011/02/public-sector-unions-partys-over.html

The statistics are a nice touch (if they are proven to be backed up by reputable sources).

It's the last sentence that merits a round of outside opinion:

Quote from: the above link
As long as unions earn more than the people who pay their salaries, as long as they work fewer hours and can’t be fired, and as long as they whine and protest the smallest reforms, the unions are risking political oblivion. Wisconsin was the first state to allow public employees to unionize, now it may be the first to ban them. . . and others will follow suit.

Personally, I've never been too favorable oy unions, mostly because of the horror stories I read about people working in unionized companies and about how unions can conspire with politicians to rip off taxpayers (and I don't think anybody is a fan of getting ripped off).

What says you?

« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 09:33:54 pm by GenesisOne »