Author Topic: Masamune V Mastermune  (Read 1654 times)

Thought

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Masamune V Mastermune
« on: February 16, 2011, 06:03:32 pm »
In CT we are told that Masa and Mune embody Melchior's dreams sealed within the Ruby Knife. Given this, it seems as if the Masamune sword is a combination of the object itself and the dream creatures that reside within it. However, in CC we see the dream-siblings enter into Serge's swallow to create the Mastermune, a weapon that is seemingly similar to the Masamune in terms of general power. Given this, I am curious as to if the object of the Masamune (either the ruby knife or the sword it becomes) is actually important.

In the Pre-CT timeline it is supposed that Melchior had time to turn the Ruby Knife into the Masamune because in Magus' flashback we do not see it. In the CT timeline, then, the energy from the Mammon Machine serves the role of this extra labor: it completes the weapon. However, in CC, we see that neither Melchior nor Lavoid energy is needed to transform the swallow into the Mastermune. This seems to indicate that we can talk about the Masamune as having two separate properties: its dreamstone properties, and its dream-creature properties. From CC, however, we see that the entering of the dream-creatures into the swallow is sufficient to transform it. Thus I wonder if the transformation we see in CT from the Ruby Knife to the Masamune happens not because of lavos' energy but rather because in that moment the manifestations of Masa and Mune, though embodying dreams already sealed within the knife, enter the knife and thus transform it as they transform the Swallow.

If this is the case, then it becomes improper to talk about Melchior finishing the blade in the original timeline, as it was Masa and Mune who completed it.

Additionally, it may not do to take the claim that Masa and Mune embody dreams sealed within the knife too literally. We see in 600 AD that they both inhabit the hilt of the sword while the blade itself seems to have no presence. We might say that they just happened to be in the hilt rather than the entire sword, but it seems likely that they are in fact given a degree of liberty in this regard. After all, just as they can leave the blade and reside entirely within the hilt, they also seem to be able to leave the sword and reside within the swallow.

What it means to have the masamune, then, may merely mean to have an object inhabited by the two, rather than the sword itself which may or may not be noteworthy based on its own powers in connection to dreamstone.

If the above it accurate, then perhaps we should look to these creatures as the reason why Magus is weak to the sword, not the sword itself. What are Magus's dreams? Or does he even have any left? He has knowledge and wisdom, no doubts there, but he is employing them towards the destruction of the world, which Melchior warns against as a possibility of the Masamune. Might it simply be, then, that whatever dreams Magus has (if indeed he has dreams) are negative and the positive dreams of Masa and Mune, combined with Frog's desire to not just defeat Magus but to generally bring about good, are thus Super Effective against him?

In turn, the evil Masamune that we see in CC may be said to be evil not because it is the Masamune. Indeed, its masamune aspects are asleep, so it is the nature of the object itself (the dreamstone aspect) that is responsible.

Xenterex

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 01:45:12 pm »
I think there is a certain quality of importance to the sword for the masamune.  If that weren't the case, i don't think there'd be a need to 'fix' the sword at all.  If Masa and Mune truly just inhabited the hilt of the broken sword, another material could've been used to either make a new blade extension, or even just transfer the dream creatures into another weapon entirely.  Maybe the japanese/real translation stuff phrases the masa and mune conversations differently, but prior to fighting that fight, iirc they wonder if Crono and co can fix them, possibly indicating that it's not just the sword that's broken, but there is a disconnection between the dream creatures too. Melchoir phrases the repair job as "activating the stone", so in the case of the mammon machine, I think the energy interaction did the job of "activating the stone" used to create the ruby knife. 

That said, I find the transference of the masamune into the swallow to become the "mastermune" inconsistent and uncharacteristic. It's like everything i've seen from frog's history with the masamune is the complete opposite for CC. ie It was Frog's determination, Frog's mind that made the masamune a powerful force, more so than its previous user(s). But, then its the dream creatures that do it for CC.  It was (presumably) the material use that allowed, or at least best utilized the effect of using dreamstone as the housing base for dream creatures.  If that weren't the case, then wouldn't you want these creatures to inhabit the best material around?  Or why would Melchoir even need to be a gifted blacksmith if these creatures could just float around into whatever they wanted?  Heck, have them just jump into a person directly and let them demolish the world in a dream of super-fist-destruction.

Thought

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 04:36:31 pm »
Good points. Yes, unfortunately it seems like a lot of stuff from CC is the opposite of what it was in CT. Though to note, I wasn't saying that the sword was not important (I also wasn't saying it was; rather, I am neutral on it), just that it can be considered separately from Masa and Mune.

However, as for why the sword needed to be fixed, there could be a few reasons for this:

1) The properties of the sword sans dreams. That is, we know Dreamstone has its own unique properties, and these would be separate from whatever advantages Masa and Mune bring to the sword.

2) The sword is a symbol. People (including Frog) look at it as a means of salvation and the triumph of good over evil. The hopes and dreams of Cyrus were in the sword, not the creatures within it. The sword, then, as a symbol may have worked as a focal point of these emotions which grants it mystical powers.

3) The sword is their home. It makes sense that they'd want to have their home fixed.

Anywho, point being, the sword and Masa+Mune can be perceived of as separate things with separate needs and requirements.

Regarding the Mammon Machine providing the "activation," consider the following lines from Melchior:

Quote from: NA Translation
MELCHIOR: The spell to energize the
sword takes immense concentration.

Quote from: Retranslation
Bosch: The spell to make the sword activate is a          
highly difficult one.

Quote from: NA Translation
MELCHIOR: To repair the Masamune, we
must process the Dreamstone, and
activate the sword.
You work on the Dreamstone, and I'll
work on the sword.

Quote from: ReTranslation
Bosch: In order to repair the Grandleon, it is          
essential not only to refine the Dreamstone but          
also to make the sword activate.   
You refine the Dreamstone for me.          
I'll carry out the activation of the sword.

And lastly...

Quote from: NA Translation
MELCHIOR: To energize this sword, we
must first rejuvenate the broken
sword...

Quote from: Retranslation
Bosch: In order to activate this sword, I must breathe
life back into its substance now that it has broken          
and lost its power.

First, note, Melchior has to activate the sword, not the stone. The dreamstone used for the repairs is never so treated, just refined. It seems, then, that the substance of the sword doesn't need to be activated but rather the essence of it. What is this essence? Clearly it cannot be Masa and Mune, as we see that they are indeed active and inhabiting at least part of the sword. Consider the line about breathing life. Since Masa+Mune are clearly not dead even once the sword has been broken, this indicates that it has a life apart from them (which, indeed, we see in CC).

Also consider that even after Melchior repairs the blade it isn't at full power: a sidequest has to happen for that to occur, in which Masa and Mune are the ones to make the final touch. The power of the sword is not just its substance, form, or whatever spells have been placed on it.

Regarding the Mammon machine: Melchior tells us that the activation process is a complex spell that requires intense concentration. While it is valid to say that the machine randomly had this same effect, it strains credulity.

Xenterex

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2011, 01:16:13 am »
Okay, I got a better understanding of what you mean in this.  Also doesn't help I had the roles reversed on who was doing what with the masamune pieces for fixing it.

That said, you could draw a similar analogy, or rather I guess confirm, your theory for the masamune to that with schala's pendent.  It's a dreamstone creation (supposedly) inhabited by a dreamcreature.  The slight difference is that the pendant is also empowered by lavos. Between the three factors (material, doreen, lavos) its hard to pinpoint what does what, but like the masamune's nightmare form held by dario, the pendant could be a factor in the meld/mutation for the dream devourer.

Quote
Also consider that even after Melchior repairs the blade it isn't at full power: a sidequest has to happen for that to occur, in which Masa and Mune are the ones to make the final touch. The power of the sword is not just its substance, form, or whatever spells have been placed on it.

Right, mind over matter. I'd say its more closely akin to mutual cooperation there.  They confide in Frog (could probably point back to how they phrased it in the mt. dorano dialogues) who has had an experience that allows him to focus his determination and act without doubt/guilt.  It's not just substance, its not just spells, its not just masa mune, its not just the wielder.  It's several factors cooperating together.

Oddly enough, if you'd just posted the NA translations, I'd have lost support of the mammon machine activating the ruby knife. But, I think from how I see the retranslations and compare it to how lavos' power function throughout Zeal (and in Scala's pendant) it seems more likely to be capable of an effect similar to the process melchior would've personally done to activate the sword into the masamune.

utunnels

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2011, 01:38:18 am »
Quote
In the Pre-CT timeline it is supposed that Melchior had time to turn the Ruby Knife into the Masamune because in Magus' flashback we do not see it.
I'm afraid I don't understand. Do you mean the Ruby Kife or the Masamune that is not seen?
You mean Magus' flash back on the North Cape, right?


Thought

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2011, 01:45:12 am »
I am terribly sorry, that was indeed quite confusing.

Specifically, in the CT timeline we see the Ruby Knife being thrust into the Mammon Machine and turning into the Masamune. At one point we see a flashback to the pre-CT Ocean Palace incident, from the perspective of Magus. This is where we seethe three Guru's and Janus getting gated to random locations. In this scene we do not see either the Ruby Knife or the Masamune, and therefore it has sometimes been deduced that in this timeline the Ruby Knife was not thrown into the Mammon Machine. If it wasn't stabbed into it, then the transformation into the Masamune must have had some other explanation, which has been taken to be that Melchior finished it on his own.

Is that clearer?

utunnels

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2011, 01:56:09 am »
Yeah, I understand now.

Quote
In turn, the evil Masamune that we see in CC may be said to be evil not because it is the Masamune. Indeed, its masamune aspects are asleep, so it is the nature of the object itself (the dreamstone aspect) that is responsible.
A random thought: maybe Masa and Mune had a nightmare during their sleep?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 02:00:46 am by utunnels »

Xenterex

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2011, 01:27:07 pm »
Quote
  If it wasn't stabbed into it, then the transformation into the Masamune must have had some other explanation, which has been taken to be that Melchior finished it on his own.
...finished it prior to getting thrown through the lavos gates*   thought that kinda information might help clarify things for others.

Anyway, I was skimming over some dialogues, and I noticed that you, thought, had something reversed too.  Masa and Mune were in the blade.  It's the broken blade portion thats gotten from Denado Mountains, and the hilt from frog. 

Thought

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 05:22:37 pm »
Sorry I hadn't had time to respond to your comments earlier.

Regarding Schala's Pendant, there is no firm indication that Doreen inhabits it, though that is a fairly safe assumption. But it is noteworthy that though it can be empowered by Lavos, this is not a perpetual charge. It isn't until rather late in the game that Marle's pendant gets charged and can open chests, doors, etc. There are two things that the pendant does that seem to be independent of its Lavos power: the original activation of the gate that sent Marle into the past, and when it moves and protects the unconscious party after the ocean palace incident. For the first, Lavos' power was already gone, and for the second, the movement of the object is in concordance with Masa and Mune moving the Masamune-sword.

Oddly enough, if you'd just posted the NA translations, I'd have lost support of the mammon machine activating the ruby knife. But, I think from how I see the retranslations and compare it to how lavos' power function throughout Zeal (and in Scala's pendant) it seems more likely to be capable of an effect similar to the process melchior would've personally done to activate the sword into the masamune.

I am curious as to how: mind expanding on that?

Regarding the switch between hilt and blade, I think the point still stands that the entire sword doesn't represent both dream creatures.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 06:42:47 pm »
Regarding Schala's Pendant, there is no firm indication that Doreen inhabits it, though that is a fairly safe assumption. But it is noteworthy that though it can be empowered by Lavos, this is not a perpetual charge. It isn't until rather late in the game that Marle's pendant gets charged and can open chests, doors, etc. There are two things that the pendant does that seem to be independent of its Lavos power: the original activation of the gate that sent Marle into the past, and when it moves and protects the unconscious party after the ocean palace incident. For the first, Lavos' power was already gone, and for the second, the movement of the object is in concordance with Masa and Mune moving the Masamune-sword.

Although, those it? The pendant got charged up again with the Mammon Machine prior to that.

Thought

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2011, 07:14:59 pm »
Yes, but that is irrelevant because the pendant mirrors the activity of the masamune.

As noted, Masa and Mune are capable of moving the blade of the sword after it has been broken. Now either Lavos' energy is not involved in the Masamune at all, in which case that energy doesn't move it, or Lavos' energy is involved in with the masamune but not in this instance, as at that point the sword is broken and the energy is gone (hence the need to recast the spell to activate it), and therefore Lavos' energy doesn't move it. Either way, for the sword, when the blade is moved by Masa and Mune, Lavos' energy is not present within it. Therefore, the ambulatory nature of dreamstone with a dream creature in it is separate from Lavos' energy.

With this established, we can then look at that instance of the pendant moving. Because of what we know about the dreamstone and the dreamcreatures from the masamune example, we can then say that the pendant also does not need Lavos' energy to move.

Xenterex

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 07:14:15 pm »
Quote
I am curious as to how: mind expanding on that?

The NA translations fit to the 't' what you had said in your posts.  However, the slight changes, to me, suggest that artificial activation could be possible (like with the mammon machine) Energizing the sword vs activating the sword.  Concentration vs difficulty.  I'd say it is the sword itself that does indeed need to be activated from the retranslations - its needs to be activated as such as to benefit from the presence of dream creatures, which, as you said, Masa and mune were still active, still had a reaction to at least the lump of metal (in positioning) but it, the sword, wasn't resonating power from them.  Sure, the sword when Frog first used it wasn't 'fully empowered', but it still had power.  (queue dramatic draw sequence and earth slicing kabooms)

The game itself is an RPG that has to assign numerical values to the equipment, but its also possibly that when frog used the masamune against Magus that that was its full strength as Frog was focused then.  (that is, Frog's determination/belief made the masamune an effective weapon against magus, and not so much that dreamstone/whatever was a particular weakness)  The Cyrus subquest then didn't do anything power wise for the sword, just for how the user applies its might to all possible foes.

Dalton

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Re: Masamune V Mastermune
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2013, 01:25:13 pm »
Lavos' energy is not involved in the Masamune at all
Involved. In pre-CT timeline Melchior already power-up Ruby knife with mammon machine. He didn't stab it because he weak and not a warrior. And he left it somewhere in Zeal( probably in his lab). Answer for possible question. Why in pre-CT timeline he have Masamune but in CT doesn't? Because Magus came after he make ruby knife but before he "charge" it. And he stuck at Mt.Woe with ruby knife. And after then he teleport in 1000 AD, Lavos destroyed Zeal and maybe broke Masamune(split in two pieces). Or it's broken because so many years left and split in two pieces. One part held in mountain(Denadoro) other part have Frog. And finally Masamune can be broken in Magus-Cyrus event but this don't shown to us. And obviously Masamune dosn't have M.E.L.C.H.I.O.R. signs then he put in Mammon Machine. If they engraved not on hilt. But he can engraved it after "charge" so it's not important where.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 10:49:45 am by Dalton »