Author Topic: Crazy End of Time Theory?  (Read 1918 times)

Mr Bekkler

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Crazy End of Time Theory?
« on: December 15, 2010, 02:57:45 pm »
So, Melchior had a dream and it became a sword. It is never specified whether it was intentional, but was sort of implied that he didn't expect it to happen. Which further implies that he couldn't just do it whenever he wanted, it was a rare occurrence. The physical sword, we're told, is forged from Dreamstone. But we all saw that tiny red knife turn into that huge shiny silver sword.

Gaspar arrived at the End of Time with nothing but the clothes on his back and endless black everywhere around him.

I posit that Gaspar dreamed the End of Time location. Not the point in time, but the location as it exists when Crono&Co find it, with the fence and the nice floor and streetlamp. Unless he has the magic power to make something out of nothing willingly and intentionally, my theory is that he created it while asleep, unknowingly, and in a similar (but not exactly the same!) manner to Melchior and the Masamune.

I say not the same because that would mean that the physical object would need to have a living, conscious manifestation, which would point to Spekkio. I'm not so sure about it, obviously. Where do you think the physical area you can walk on at the End of Time came from? Could this hold any water?

TheMage

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 06:13:49 pm »
That would explain where Spekkio came of, I mean when Gaspar arrived Spekkio certainly wasn't shown there. He could have come from a gate, but still, Gaspar had no supplies to build the fence, the street lamp etc, so he very well could have dreamed it and Spekkio could be a manifestation of that dream, :D wicked cool. What makes me curious is how all the gates connect to the end of time, why there at that point, in neatly rowed pillars. If gates are the entity's doing  than why - SPEKKIO'S THE ENTITY I FIGURED IT OUT! (jk)

hmm.

idioticidioms

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 08:25:11 pm »
huh, it's interesting that you brought this up because it does leave some gaping holes. I mean, the second time around, Melchior used the dreamstone to create the Ruby Knife, and it became the Masamune when it was stuck into the Mammon Machine, though you think it would have already been termed as the Masamune due to Masa and Mune being infused in it. UNless there are two completely different ways to make it and Melchior made it differently the first time where there was no Ruby Knife stage.

As for Gaspar, I just kind of figured that with all of the people coming through the portals that some of them helped build what we see at the End of Time and that Spekkio was some ancient God of War that had managed to wander through and test whoever came along, in search of the ultimate challenge. I mean, the former makes sense because Gaspar would have had to help whoever came through, and he did say that there were others before Crono and Co., which means that there were other incidents when 4 or more people came through. Helping them get back to their time period may have instilled in them a need to pay Gaspar back and they could have just as easily came back, once they knew how.

As for the latter, Spekkio might have just as easily been a warlord, leading a troop when he accidentally stumbled across it and decided to stay, or was asked to stay by Gaspar. Hell, his ultimate form is that of a pink Nu, isn't it? It could just be that once Gaspar learned where he was, that he traveled back and collected one of his Nu friends from Zeal. After all, he is quoted as saying 'All life begins and ends with Nu.' That could very well be where he got the idea from.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 08:32:52 pm »
The only problem with Gaspar getting help from other time travelers is that the gates aren't always open.
Which tells me there is either a second, separate team having a simultaneous adventure, using gates that appear in the same area but lead to different sets of eras for the other "drifters"; OR Gaspar and Spekkio are the drifters he's talking about, but he speaks of himself in third person out of nostalgia for the time lost.


idioticidioms

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 04:28:42 am »
Well, what I was thinking was that it might even have been a future version of Crono and Crew that did have full access and wanted to repay him as well as filling him in on everything that was going to happen so he could help out the younger versions and possibly give the older ones advice on how to proceed with their new mission.

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 11:19:16 am »
I approve that Spekkio is made out of Gaspars dreams. Masa, Mune and Doreen where made from the dreams of Melchior and they are both gurus.

But what I wonder is that Zeal technology didn't exist in the end of time. Is it possible for them to just dream everything without the help of the Sun Stone?

idioticidioms

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 01:53:09 pm »
"We embody Melchior's dreams, sealed, within the knife..."

But does that mean that they actually were constructed from Melchiors dream, or does it mean that they simply embody a dream that he had?

Definitions for 'Embody'

1. To give a bodily form to; incarnate.
2. To represent in bodily or material form: "As John Adams embodied the old style, Andrew Jackson embodied the new" (Richard Hofstadter).
3. To make part of a system or whole; incorporate: laws that embody a people's values.

1. to give a tangible, bodily, or concrete form to (an abstract concept)
2. to be an example of or express (an idea, principle, etc.), esp in action his gentleness embodies a Christian ideal
3. (often foll by in) to collect or unite in a comprehensive whole, system, etc.; comprise; include all the different essays were embodied in one long article
4. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) to invest (a spiritual entity) with a body or with bodily form; render incarnate


As for the transformation of the Ruby Knife turning into the Masamune... The dynamics of the Chronoverse are different from those of ours. Perhaps it was merely the reaction of the Ruby Knife to the power of the Mammon Machine that caused it to change.

Masa and Mune were already infused in the blade when it got the juice. I remember now the vital difference in the two time lines.

In the first, Melchior never got sent to the Mountain of Woe. He had time to forge the Masamune blade, whole, as we see it when his future version fixes it with the Dreamstone. He could have used the power of the Sun Stone along with Masa and Mune.

In the second, he did get sent to the Mountain of Woe. He didn't have time to forge it with the Sun Stone. Hell, for all we know, he might have been cut off from it due to the infraction that got him sent to the Mountain of Woe to begin with. The energy of the Mammon Machine acts as the catalyst that the Sun Stone acted as in the first time line.

Whether Masa, Mune and Doreen were actually constructed from dreams or were just unique to Zeal and were the only creatures which could and would power the sword is hard to prove either way. Considering that they were in existence before the blade was even forged tends to lean towards the latter.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 12:38:15 am by idioticidioms »

Xenterex

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 01:31:59 pm »
Quote
I posit that Gaspar dreamed the End of Time location

When he's left to his own devices (ie you haven't talked with him on that given visit to the End of Time) isn't he sleeping?  Makes sense to me.

Ciphermind

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2011, 12:58:00 am »
I will have to disagree.  When we look at Gaspar's knowledge of the player's actions, we can conclude that the "End of Time" very obviously isn't subject to the rules of a standard timeline, and rather exists, in some way, removed from it.  It is also important to note that the End of Time grants access to "all times" (not accessible for obvious reasons).  It stands to reason that Gaspar, already posessing some knowledge of how to manipulate time, could have retrieved the resources required from different points in history.  Though it's true that Gaspar could have "dreamed" up the place, it is unlikely he would have known much about architecture so much different than anything he's ever seen in 12,000 BC.  Gaspar necissariliy had the ability to percieve and manipulate time on an unprecedented scale from the End of Time, and it's much less of a leap to posit that he retrieved things from the past rather than willed them into existence.

Another thing to note.  If Gaspar had the ability to create objects by dreaming them into being, it is very implausible that he wouldn't create an ultimate weapon of some sort, or at least do something with that infinite creative prowess to remedy the Lavos situation that, despite his position as an "outside observer", he was very much invested against.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 12:59:46 am by Ciphermind »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2011, 01:32:32 pm »
I will have to disagree.  When we look at Gaspar's knowledge of the player's actions, we can conclude that the "End of Time" very obviously isn't subject to the rules of a standard timeline, and rather exists, in some way, removed from it.  

How do you come to that conclusion? It's stated that is is the end of time, which places it firmly IN the active timeline... at the end. Gaspar is a magic guru who comes from a place where people are telepathic in their sleep and do crazy things with their dreams. I'd say it's a farther leap to suggest that his clairvoyance is due to his current environment than to suggest that he "just is that way".

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It is also important to note that the End of Time grants access to "all times" (not accessible for obvious reasons).  It stands to reason that Gaspar, already posessing some knowledge of how to manipulate time, could have retrieved the resources required from different points in history.  

Possible, yes, but not likely. As stated before, the gates are not always open, and he never leaves the end of time. If he could travel through time willingly what reason would he have to stay there?

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Though it's true that Gaspar could have "dreamed" up the place, it is unlikely he would have known much about architecture so much different than anything he's ever seen in 12,000 BC.  

It's a platform with a light. Not exactly architecture, and we don't see it anywhere else in game, so we don't know where the design is supposed to be from.

Quote
Gaspar necissariliy had the ability to percieve and manipulate time on an unprecedented scale from the End of Time, and it's much less of a leap to posit that he retrieved things from the past rather than willed them into existence.

How? He couldn't/didn't leave.

Quote
Another thing to note.  If Gaspar had the ability to create objects by dreaming them into being, it is very implausible that he wouldn't create an ultimate weapon of some sort, or at least do something with that infinite creative prowess to remedy the Lavos situation that, despite his position as an "outside observer", he was very much invested against.

Something like... the time egg? Really the answer is simple. Melchior made a sword because he was a smith, it's what he knew. Gaspar was not a weapons-maker, he made something else. Maybe more than one thing, who knows? Maybe Belthasar dreamed up the Mammon Machine, I don't know. Like you said though, he was an observer, and even if he could make a weapon (assuming even if he made Spekkio and that doesn't count) I don't think he would.

Eske

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 12:22:50 am »
To be honest, I had always assumed that the End of Time, as we see it, is not Gaspar's creation at all, but Spekkio's.  "All life begins and ends with Nu" as they say.   Recall that you can warp to different locations in 3D space via gates - not just one location per timeline.   Gaspar probably warped into an area of nothingness and wandered upon Spekkio's last bastion of existence. If all life ends with Nu, as is stated in the game in the Zeal Kingdom, then Spekkio, whose final form is a Nu, would be the most sensible last being alive.

EgyLynx

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Re: Crazy End of Time Theory?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 03:05:12 pm »
but? How?

Meen:
when we see it cam is are nothing... but... when Crono & co arrivers...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2012, 03:08:10 pm by EgyLynx »