Author Topic: After the Chrono Bible, the Chrono Theogonia...  (Read 28699 times)

Chrono'99

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After the Chrono Bible, the Chrono Theogonia...
« on: December 07, 2003, 11:54:15 am »
Being a fan of greek mythology, I was surprised to read somewhere that the Giants weren't just giant humans, but tailed humans with serpents on their head... kinda like dinosaurs... or Reptites?

Whatsmore, the term Giant/Gegantes in greek means something like "born from Ge" (Ge/Gaia is the goddess of Earth).

So, I began to compare the greek cosmogony with CT and I've found that it matches in some ways CT AND CC storyline.

Gaia asks Cronos to kill Uranus
The Entity (Earth) guides Crono to make him kill Lavos
Cronos didn't kill Uranus, he just castrated him
Crono didn't kill Lavos, he just sent it into the DoT
The blood of Uranus shed on Gaia created the Giants
The non-destruction of the future by Lavos made the Dragonians in contact with this world
Cronos became the king of universe
Crono became the prince of Guardia
Cronos devoured his children
Crono, by erasing the original future, sort of "killed" the "children" of the present people
Cronos ate a rock instead of Zeus
Lynx/FATE killed Serge in Another World but not in Home World
Zeus beat Cronos and became the new king of universe
Errr... Serge is the Arbiter of Time eh?
Gaia sent the Giants to defeat Zeus and his folks
The Planet wanted to defeat Serge and the humans
Zeus even defeated the Gaia's champion, Typhon
Serge defeated the Dragon God
...

Note : In the mythology there's also often a confusion between the names Cronos (with a kappa)and Chronos (with a khi).
The Titan Cronos is the just the father of Zeus, while Chronos is the representation of Time (with the sand glass and the scythe...)


Since it's very hard to remember every myths all at once, this comparison isn't complete and fully detailled... yet...

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2003, 01:23:38 pm »
Excellent. You know, since the Chrono series already represents a few myths, I may check out other famous mythologies and see if there are further similarities. It's amazing how this game matches up...

YbrikMetaknight

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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2003, 02:18:36 pm »
Also, check out http://mythology.terrapolis.org/Mythology.htm for similar insight into Square's games.

Drumguy074

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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2003, 04:21:49 am »
As for the religion aspect, Square often makes references to Kasmir Shavism (hinduism) with references to shiva and other deities.  As soon as I can track down my stupid AD resource, I will elaborate further on this religion, and the beliefs surrounding Shiva. (I believe a request was made to do this on the old site)

YbrikMetaknight

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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2003, 07:05:07 am »
Quote from: Drumguy074
As for the religion aspect, Square often makes references to Kasmir Shavism (hinduism) with references to shiva and other deities.  As soon as I can track down my stupid AD resource, I will elaborate further on this religion, and the beliefs surrounding Shiva. (I believe a request was made to do this on the old site)


Yes...are you going to finally give in and go to the Whitstapo for all of that?

(Note to others:  The Whitstapo refers to my senior year English teacher, who was also our high school's Academic Decathlon sponsor...a bit of a Nazi--hence the nickname--but a good teacher.)

Well, back to writing my papers while getting over my own vodka-induced crapulence.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2004, 05:51:26 pm »
All right, I apologize sincerely for posting on such a long dormant thread, but I hadn't seen it before, and it just now caught my interest.
Firstly, in regards to the religions and calenders (which, in topic, seems to cross over with the thread relating to real world influences), I would say that almost certainly Guardia is Christian, and thus so is Crono (or, at least, in name). As you have said, the calendar is based on the Christian one, the years being counted in AD, ie. Anno Domini, the Year of our Lord, which is a distinctly Christian measurement (at least in so far as measuring from the year 0 occurs). Thus in all of my own writing I portray that land as fundamentally Christian. I would generally agree with what is said here concerning the various religious affiliation that appear in Chrono Trigger/Cross. (Though I go so far as to hypothesise that the Chrono universe is, until about the year 100, little different from our own, save that a great continent lies in the mid-atlantic. During the time of Rome's persecutions a centurian, turned to Christianity, leads his legions across the sea to this island, which he then calls Guardia. This all makes Chrono Trigger more of a parallel universe to our own, and keeps many of the historical events of our world, such as Greece and Rome, and ancient Egypt. A true historical split would then occur at about 600 with the appearance of the Mystics, presumably in place of the Islamic religion which arose at around a similar time.)
However, I do have a comment or two in regards to Chrono'99. I would like to point out that the Giants being portrayed as lizards is likely a very localized myth, believed in only a small portion of Greece (as so often occurred); I, for one, have never read of the Giants being so, and I have read quite of bit of Greek myth. What I know is that very often the myths were multi-faceted, and varied from city-state to city-state, and region to region. Generally they were multi-armed and headed, but not lizard-like. Also, I did some checking on the spelling of Cronus/Chrono in my dad's Greek-English Lexicon, and I found something interesting. True enough, Cronus, the god of the golden age, is spelled with a kappa. However there is a verb form that comes from the name, and that verb is used to signify something that has passed, I believe (I'm guessing this comes from Cronus' reign having been completed and passed on to Zeus); so from that, I would assume, comes the word for time, spelled with a chi. Thus I think the idea of Zeus' father Cronus is actually a godlike manifestation of the concept of time. Janus actually bears passing resemblance to Cronus himself. For it is Cronus that weilds a sickle (with which he castrates the sky, at the behest of the Earth); later, in Roman myth, Cronus is identified with Saturn, that is father time, and he carries a scythe and hour glass. Janus, in the Roman myths, is the equivalent of Uranus in Greek, though there is no hostile takeover: he relinquishes his governship happily.
The myths seem to coincide at times, but the reason is not that it was intended that way, but rather the same reason that Tolkien's mythology is so similar to actual myths and events: he wrote his stories in an applicable way, and parallels, though he did not intend them, are easily made. He said so himself. In the same way Chrono Trigger, by drawing on the basic foundations of myths and legends in its stories often inadvertently parallels them. Though I would caution against the parallellisms that are brought up with Crono and Cronus; that is shaky, at the best. There is far more making Crono and Cronus different than similar. Cronus, for example, was not only a tyrant, but least of the Titans; yet it is in exchange for his facing of Uranus that the others make him their leader. He is fearful of losing his power, and not very wise.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2004, 04:50:47 pm »
There are no "dead" forums on the Compendium.

I agree that Guardia in 600 and 1000 AD alludes to Christianity, or an organized religion of that kind.  Considering that a god-like entity is demonstrated to exist, I wonder who or what the humans worship.  We can see how the nature of the people's spirituality changes over time

65 million BC

There is no religion or perhaps religion in its most primitive and purest form.  The humans and reptites live in harmony with the natural world.  I suppose this era could be compared to the Garden of Eden (I should check the CT Testament).  There is reference to “mother earth” which may mean the humans and reptites revere the planet, which we know has a life and power all to its own.

12000 BC

The Enlightened humans have turned their backs on the planet and consider themselves to be the pinnacle of existence.  Zeal has definitely become a perversion of the natural order seen in the past.  Lavos is the most important force in the lives of the Enlightened Ones.  In Algetty, the Earthbound humans continue to live in harmony with the planet.

600 and 1000 AD

Humanity's faith has been reaffirmed, although it has changed from the primitive mysticism into organized religion.  Formal places of worship as well as holy orders exist.

Due to the Magus' propaganda, the Mystics worship Lavos as a god of destruction which will eliminate the human race.  After Crono's intervention this changes, but the outcome is unclear.

2300 AD

Humanity has lost all hope.  No religious beliefs exist.  How this changes in the new timeline is unknown.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2004, 08:54:40 pm »
The faith in Zeal is simply that...zealous...

Their god is Lavos, and Lavos performs the functions of deity perfectly for them. It's not that the Zealians didn't have faith, it's simply that they had faith in Lavos rather than the Planet. While Guardia is clearly analagous to a Christian kingdom, it's unclear what is worshiped by the people of Guardia. The Cathedral is abandoned in 600 A.D. and never restored.

To what holy orders do you refer?

GrayLensman

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2004, 10:04:22 pm »
There are nuns in 600 AD and 1000 AD.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2004, 04:46:20 am »
But in 600 A.D. they turn out to be Nagas and in 1000 A.D. they don't show up until Fiona's Shrine, although that does give more cerediblity to the thought that the religion in Guardia is a form of nature worship.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2004, 06:20:53 am »
There is one in San Dorino.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2004, 07:25:52 am »
Don't know if we can generalize this to the whole El Nido or even Zenan, but General Viper sometimes say "Good Lord! and "God be with you!", so he seems to worship a monotheistic God.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2004, 03:49:30 am »
The politics of the main Zenan continent, from the look of the knights to the existance of an order of knighthood, is very much like any European power between about 800 and 1500. Thus the religion was almost certainly Christian (with scattered people still with old beliefs, and some Christian holidays and traditions and such merged with the Celts and Norse). Anyway, it is likely a state religion. Manoria cathedral is a relic, an old place of worship that might hearken back to the days of people like the old Celts; note that there is no cross in it, thus it has been out of use for a long time. From what the PSX cutscenes show, this was likely due to a newer cathedral nearer Truce. That cutscene also shows that the wedding is very Western styled, supporting the idea of the Christian belief in Guardia (and presumably the south continant as well). In this I include both 600 and 1000AD. Medina is likely of a similar sort, though we never really have any true picture of their belief system; by their takeover of the cathedral, it is inherently different from Guardia, but beyond that all we see is the legend-worship associated with their mythical Lord Magus.
In the West, I would agree with whoever said more Native, or perhaps Polynesian, beliefs. They are certainly shamanistic, that is for sure. At least those on Marbule and Guldove. The main isle is a bit of an unsurity. Porre, in connection to Zenan, might be Christian, though being militaristic might have abandoned all connection with religion. Viper and the Dragoons are not native to the islands...as the last post said, they appear monotheistic. Perhaps they, when they took over the islands, brought that with them; maybe another reason of conflict between the humans and demi humans.
In the future, as has been said, and I agree with, hope is lost. Religion might remain somewhat scattered, I think (it being one of the most basic of human thoughts), but not to the high extent of earlier times. Perhaps only a few still cling to it.
In the time of Zeal...someone has said Lavos, but I respectfully disagree. Lavos is a Power, a means to an end. But the very name of Zeal clues us in to their god, and in their ambition their beliefs are made manifest. They see themselves as gods, and think themselves accountable to no-one. Thus comes the quest for immortality, hearkening back to the first sin in the Garden of Eden (the outcome and quest differs: knowledge of good and evil as opposed to immortality, but the desire to "be like God" or "be gods" is no different, and is the cause of the downfall). Thus the religion of Zeal is a deifying of one's self.
Earlier on...this is a quandary. Most common thought would lead me to say a polytheistic animal and nature worship society, but I lately have my doubts as to that being the most primitive. I generally assumed that the most basic form of religion was polytheistic, and in time conglomerated (very suddenly at around 2000BC with Abraham; and no, I am not going by the Biblical dates, I know full well those are figurative. I am going by archeological evidence and assumption, and the comparison to various civilizations in existance at the time). But it appears I might be wrong. I've come now to understand that it's very possible that the oldest form of religion is monotheism, and that polytheism only came about to avert revolts and such. For in every culture there is a "great creator", and all the other gods after appear lesser. Whether this god manifests itself as a tangable aspect or not, it nonetheless exists. The Egyptians appear polytheistic, but the sect at Thebes held Amun to be a high and omnipotent god above all the others, and not unlike the Christian monothesitic god. Thus all the others, Ra included, would not be true "gods", but rather servants. For in the end, a polytheistic religion can never answer the basic question of "why?". Polytheism demands gods with finite powers that are a PART of creation; thus they cannot be the cause of creation. That cause is then the true god of the culture. Anyway, I didn't explain that all clearly; I was just enlightened as to it a few days ago by my dad, who told me it is very likely that the oldest form of worship is monotheism, contrary to common thought though it might seem, and that through time it fragmented into various sects and gods, representing emotions or animals that people saw (people being innately superstitious). Anyway, this leaves the time period of "65,000,000BC" up to debate; if it is true to this world, then it might be a monotheistic/polytheistic/shamanistic mix, but I'm not sure.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2004, 03:32:49 pm »
Quote
Anyway, it is likely a state religion. Manoria cathedral is a relic, an old place of worship that might hearken back to the days of people like the old Celts; note that there is no cross in it, thus it has been out of use for a long time.


I disagree with your interpretation of the lack of crosses. While Guardia is certainly like a Chrisitian kingdom, it is doubtful that it is literally Christian. That world had no Christ, the switch from A.D. to B.C. was the result of the foundation of the Guardia kingdom, those lables used merely for the convenience of the player. The cross probably didn't exist as a symbol of religion, as there was no reason for it to. In the Cathedral, there is a stained glass window of an angel and some roses. Not sure what that is symbolic of in Guardian religion.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2004, 04:07:44 pm »
Well, I can assure you it must literally be Christian. AD and BC have no meaning without Christ (AD being Anno Domini, in the year of our Lord, and BC being Before Christ). I believe there is a Latin form for "in the year of our land", but it isn't AD. The only other explanation might be that AD is in the year of the lord of Guardia...only the first lord's been dead a long time, so that wouldn't exactly hold true. And BC is irreconcilable. I realize you say that it is merely for the convienience of the player, but many of the other theories regarding Chrono Trigger that are held to be true could be interpreted as such as well. To make a long story short, Guardia was modelled on a midieval, European kingdom. Those were always Christian, and even the idea of knighthood and the style of swords hearkens to a Christian era. Furthermore...no other religion has Cathedrals that I can think of. It is purely Christian; they are temples, or Mosques, or something else, but the name "Manoria Cathedral" makes the religion of Guardia being Christian a neccessity.
Furthermore, I have always maintained that the Chrono world did indeed have a Christ. The timeline skips very suddenly from Zeal in 11,000 BC to 600AD. Recorded history in our world goes back to approximately 3,000 BC. The oldest walled city, Jericho, is only about 9,000BC. Thus it would not be incongruent to say that the Chrono universe has the same timeline as does ours; there is nothing to contradict it. Uruk, Assyria, the Hittites, Babylonia, Egypt, the Greeks and Romans...all these could exist in the Chrono universe (granted, there are only small islands shown, but I seriously doubt that that is the whole Chrono world...after all, it never shows El Nido on there, nor even a region where El Nido could be created). I always take the history of the Chrono universe to be parallell to our own till about the year 40, with the only difference being that there is a large island, the Zenan continent, in the mid-Atlantic. But up until about the year 40 (a somewhat arbitrary number, actually; it's what I chose in my writing to be the founding of Guardia, actually. But it's somewhat reasonable), there is no real difference between our world and that world; then it splits, and takes on its history, while we go to the empires of Europe and the crusades.