Fuck Sexism

[ZeaLitY]

All I want for Christmas is for all men's rights activists to jump off a fucking bridge.

[Truthordeal]

So men shouldn't be allowed to wear skirts if they feel like it?

[tushantin]

All I want for Christmas is for all men's rights activists to jump off a fucking bridge.

ZeaLitY, with all due respect, that kind of attitude actually gives plenty of freedom to misandry. Agreed, an innumerable number of women need our support. But do we have to endanger innocent men for that? Where's equality in that?

[ZeaLitY]

ZeaLitY, with all due respect, that kind of attitude actually gives plenty of freedom to misandry. Agreed, an innumerable number of women need our support. But do we have to endanger innocent men for that? Where's equality in that?

So men shouldn't be allowed to wear skirts if they feel like it?

Both of you, go read up on the fucking men's rights "movement". Comparable organizations are the Ku Klux Klan and Westboro Baptist Church. You're going to laugh at yourselves afterwards for raising objections to my post.

[tushantin]

Both of you, go read up on the fucking men's rights "movement". Comparable organizations are the Ku Klux Klan and Westboro Baptist Church. You're going to laugh at yourselves afterwards for raising objections to my post.

Ah, forgive me, I guess I misread your previous post. I thought your hatred was directed at "men's rights" rather than "men's rights activists" (ah, curse dyslexia...). And indeed, I'm not not really fond of the WBC either.

I guess part of my bias stemmed from the current situation of my relative; an innocent uncle of mine, and his family, have fallen into a misandric hellhole devised by an incredibly greedy woman. It's amazing how we put a lot of effort into removing gender inequality by supporting womanhood, then someone or the other uses that effort for their own selfish agenda (not just a few corrupt women, but incredibly self-conceited men do it too).

[Truthordeal]

I visited the National Council of Men's page last week when looking up SC custody law to see if we have an accountability measure for child support payments(we do not). I considered sending an email asking what the law was or how we could go about changing it, but even to contact them you need to enroll in counseling, which I'm immediately suspicious of.

But I'm not asking about the activists, I'm asking about the causes. Would you say you support their causes(the skirt thing I mentioned, child custody laws, etc.), even if their actual activism grates you?

[Syna]

But I'm not asking about the activists, I'm asking about the causes. Would you say you support their causes(the skirt thing I mentioned, child custody laws, etc.), even if their actual activism grates you?

I know this was directed at Zeality, but personally, I absolutely support such measures. It's really too bad that the "masculinist" movement is full of delusional & self-serving fools, because I would love to see men address issues specific to their gender in a way that doesn't derail feminism.

(Their attitude reminds me of why I hate One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, with the loathing-of-slash-sexualization-of Nurse Ratched. One character in that book actually mutters the line "we're living in a matriarchy"-- bear in mind this was written in the 1960s. When I read that, I set the book down and laughed hysterically for five minutes straight. How do you even start to address that!)

An interesting quote I found at No, Seriously, But What About the Menz, which I have some problems with but which generally covers men's issues much more capably than most:

My “not into gender studies” friend once told me that although he frequently deconstructs problems of masculinity in the privacy of his own mind, he doesn’t like to publicly have those conversations because he doesn’t want to sound like an MRA. He said, “A lot of the time, men who want to think seriously about masculinity won’t talk about it aloud because we really don’t want to be that,” emphasizing “that” with loathing. He later added, “It’s very tricky to discuss masculinity yet avoid simply devolving into male entitlement. That’s the crux of the problem with the ‘Men’s Movement’ assholes — none of them are addressing the underlying problems of masculinity.  They’re just whining about not receiving the privileges their cultural conditioning tells them to expect.”

[xcalibur]

I assume that most "mens rights activism" is either pure trolling, or a response to the worst excesses of feminism without taking the rest into account.

[Truthordeal]

I checked out the subreddit for Men's Rights a while back, for no other reason than that the name caught my eye while browsing. The posts there seemed horrific, but in order not to misrepresent them based on memory, I went back today. Here's what I found:



For those of you who don't know how reddit works, these are posts by members, either with links or text, that have been "voted up" because a mass agrees on them. This is about as clear a view of a men's rights' consensus as you'll find in one place. Here's the link if you care to explore it more on your own:

http://www.reddit.com/r/mensrights

-------

Now I think there's some good on here. I think we would all agree that female-on-male domestic abuse is an issue that's often ignored or goes unreported because men fear a lack of respect as a result. It's also an issue that I feel feminism on its own does not address effectively, although we all probably would not agree on that. Either way, some advocacy on it is a net benefit. Unfortunately, as Syna said, there's also a bunch of whining about a loss of privilege, and those guys need to grow up.

[Katie Skyye]

This is only slightly related: I know that when my parents were getting divorced, my dad wanted to try to get full custody instead of my mom, but decided not to after the lawyers basically laughed at him for suggesting it. Even his own lawyer didn't think it was wise to try.
I'm glad he DIDN'T get custody, because he's terrible, but I knew some people in school whose moms were batshit insane and their dads were decent people, at least, but who couldn't get custody and whose child support was going to (in one case) drugs for the mom, and in another case, WoW subscriptions. Yes, really.

So...hm, I wasn't really making a point, just an observation.

[ZeaLitY]

Their entire fucking attitude is "I knew x and y happened to him, FEMINIST CONSPIRACY" or "I read about a false rape allegation once; all rapes are thus false, except for prison rape against men, am I right guyz???" Some of the most incredibly nasty, boorish, pathetic people dwell within the men's rights "movement", and it's why none of their initiatives or legitimate concerns will ever be addressed. No one wants to deal with a group of 1 sane person and 9 crazy assholes. /Mensrights/ on reddit is moderated and run by someone who legitimately believes that there is a female conspiracy that currently controls the world.

 

[tushantin]

A point to note is that when the power tilts over to the advantage of feminist mindset then the ratio of false rape allegations eventually increase (though still minimal compared to actual rape cases). No, the real interesting bit is that despite the negligible scores there will always be a triggered fear amongst the "masculine activists" which they think gives them a blank check to rationally justify themselves. The loss of privilege eventually deals in a backward perspective and they begin stepping on paranoia grounds of "feminist conspiracy", a concept that may or may not exist.

Question is, how are you going to tackle this backward thinking? Aggression would further the paranoia by ten-fold but halting would allow them to chuckle smugly. Then there's also the question of how will they react to what circumstances. The privileges bestowed upon "the men" traditionally in one way helps furthering the goals of feminism and yet in another remains an annoying hindrance.

Yet, my personal belief is that masculinity doesn't need privileges. Societies without patriarchy, especially those in the ancient/antiquity east, have done quite well too. I think this would be a good time to revisit and study those societal structures (though some were based on religious philosophies).

That’s the crux of the problem with the ‘Men’s Movement’ assholes — none of them are addressing the underlying problems of masculinity.  They’re just whining about not receiving the privileges their cultural conditioning tells them to expect.”

[Thought]

I like stories, they are wonderful at illustrating concepts. To that end, I beg your indulgence, Tush, while I relate one that is here relevant.

My dog hates getting her toenails trimmed. She used to tolerate it better than she does now, and the worsening is largely my fault. When she gets her nails trimmed, I used to try to comfort her during the process, to reduce her fear. Unfortunately, my comforts became associated with the unpleasantness of trimming her nails, and now if I try to comfort her during this, it only makes her fear worse. In some ways, comforting her was an indication that there was indeed something to fear. I recognized my error and have subsequently adjusted my behavior. My dog still hates getting her nails trimmed, but she isn’t so terrified as when I tried to calm her fears.

How does this relate? People can be the same way. Our efforts to reduce the fears of others can have the opposite effect of the one intended. By trying to reassure “Men’s Right Activists” that we have no desire or intention of turning the XY persuasion into a secondary class of citizens, we may be confirming to them that their fears of such a situation are valid, and thus in turn we reinforce them.

The solution, then, may be to do nothing about them. Instead, we must focus on ourselves being clear in our actions and intentions, and ensuring that our actions are impeccable. If telling someone “there is nothing to fear” causes them to  fear more greatly, then showing them that there is nothing to fear is a legitimate option to try. I cannot guarantee brilliant success -- by dog is still afraid of getting her nails trimmed -- but it might help things not be as bad.

[Katie Skyye]

[tushantin]

@Katie: XD I feel really sorry for that dude. It's ironic he's surprised about "a girl on the internet", as if the concept is foreign to him (quite the majority of brilliant artists at DeviantArt seem to be females, though I wouldn't be surprised if the majority at 4Chan are males).

@Thought: I owe you a response, though pardon the delays. (I learned a term which I'd like to use now) I'm stretched too thin.